S02.E13: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part I

[Bort]

Quote

When the U.S.S. Discovery’s crucial mission does not go according to plan, Burnham realizes what must ultimately be done. The crew prepares for the battle of a lifetime as Leland’s Control ships get closer.

Airdate: Thursday, April 11, 2019

[ottoDbusdriver]

So many tears !  So many goodbyes !  With so little time until the Control ships show up, when did all the work get done ?

How is the Enterprise supposed to get away from all those Section 31 ships ?  Discovery is headed to the future, but the Enterprise is kind of SOL being so outnumbered.

Did Reno see a quantum torpedo in her interaction with the time crystal, impacted on the Discovery ?  How will that play into things ? That's more of a 24th century Federation weapon.

Captain Pike looks good in his gold command uniform.  Like a captain.

Did Michael never tell Pike about Georgiou being from the mirror universe ?  I'm kind of surprised by that, especially when Pike said "what mirror universe ?".

Loved having Po back in the picture.  She's awesome.

I have to call BS on one thing -- forging the suit out of the bulkhead/cargo container/whatever.  For a super top secret type of project that should be super duper advanced, that seemed like a bit of a letdown.  Now everyone with a time crystal will be able to go messing up  the time line.  It's like being told that I can make a time machine out of the gyprock in walls of my house.

Edited April 12, 2019 by ottoDbusdriver

[starri]

Boy, did I enjoy that.

I really hope they keep Nahn next season.  I mean, Reno can only be there as Tig Notaro's schedule allows, but I'd love it if we could keep the other big addition to the team this season, since Pike has to go back to the Enterprise.

Speaking of, boy, did the Enterprise bridge look gorgeous in HD.

[marinw]

If Control can control Discovery's self-destruct, then why would it let the crew take it to wherever?

[paigow]

Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade - Pike chose the wrong crystal. Enterprise gets destroyed killing Pike...never gets crippled...Therefore, the future he saw cannot happen...

[ottoDbusdriver]

If both Burnham and Reno have touched the time crystal, does that mean that their destinies are also fixed ?

How did Sarek's ship beat Control/Section 31 ships to Discovery/Enterprise ?  Is Vulcan right next door to Xahea ?

They don't have that escape tunnel tech on any other version of Star Trek, even though it looked REALLY cool, it's still pretty much transporters and escape pods in the 24th century so kind of have to call BS there too.

Reno saw the same unexploded photon torpedo (not quantum torpedo, I misheard that the first time) as Burnham saw in her vision -- that confirms it has to be important, probably a person inside it.  Possibly, Leland ?

Based on the preview, it doesn't look we are going to see any of the other beacon locations this season.

 

[starri]

23 minutes ago, marinw said:

If Control can control Discovery's self-destruct, then why would it let the crew take it to wherever?

It wasn't Control, it was the sphere data that seems to have some level of sentience.

[marinw]

1 minute ago, starri said:

It wasn't Control, it was the sphere data that seems to have some level of sentience.

I stand corrected! It's been a long day. Still don't get how the Sphere Data can control the swlf-destruct but not the navigation.

[starri]

It seems to only act to preserve itself.  It won't allow itself to be deleted and won't allow the ship to be destroyed, but doesn't have a problem with the plan to take it into the future.

There's Tilly/Po slashfic being written as I type this, right?

[ottoDbusdriver]

3 minutes ago, starri said:

It seems to only act to preserve itself.  It won't allow itself to be deleted and won't allow the ship to be destroyed, but doesn't have a problem with the plan to take it into the future.

But they did say that the sphere data had merged with Discovery, and given enough time Discovery may become self-aware.  Say 1000 years ?

[FormerMod-a1]

1 hour ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I'm kind of surprised by that, especially when Pike said "what mirror universe ?".

He said it with a wink and a smile, though.

[jcin617]

This was good but I feel like half the episode was people saying goodbye to each other .  Also why was Enterprise the only ship helping out and not the rest of Starfleet.

[DrScottie]

47 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

But they did say that the sphere data had merged with Discovery, and given enough time Discovery may become self-aware.  Say 1000 years ?

Well, that Short Trek with Zora and Craft has to pop up at some point and 1000 years in the future is about right. We've already seen Saru and Kaminar and Po was in this episode. 

So, that's three of the four Short Treks, does Harry Mudd show up for the finale with his army of androids? 

[ottoDbusdriver]

2 minutes ago, DrScottie said:

Well, that Short Trek with Zora and Craft has to pop up at some point and 1000 years in the future is about right. We've already seen Saru and Kaminar and Po was in this episode. 

So, that's three of the four Short Treks, does Harry Mudd show up for the finale with his army of androids? 

Yes, but what if instead the Discovery goes back in time a 1000 years, marinates to sentience, saves Craft, falls in love with him, and this version of the Discovery sphere data/AI defeats Control.  Space love conquers all.

Edited April 12, 2019 by ottoDbusdriver

[DrScottie]

49 minutes ago, jcin617 said:

Why was Enterprise the only ship helping out and not the rest of Starfleet?

Fate, it protects fools, small children and ships called Enterprise.

I mean, it's not like the fate of all sentient life hangs in the balance here. 

Oh wait...

Fortunately, saving the galaxy is something ships named Enterprise specialize in. 

2 hours ago, starri said:

Speaking of, boy, did the Enterprise bridge look gorgeous in HD.

I did love seeing that version of the Enterprise. The bridge looked so much better and closer to the original than the Apple store one from the Abrams movies. 

Edited April 12, 2019 by DrScottie

[MissLucas]

I wish the writing for this show was up to the visuals *sigh*

Also on my wish list: a spin-off with Po, Giorgiou and Reno as galactic A-Team.

[paigow]

5 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Also on my wish list: a spin-off with Po, Giorgiou and Reno as galactic A-Team.

TOS reboot with Kirk and Number One 

[ottoDbusdriver]

11 minutes ago, lora said:

From his response, I think he knew.

I missed Pike's wink when he said that (caught it on 2nd viewing).  That wink brings it all together.

[starri]

7 hours ago, jcin617 said:

This was good but I feel like half the episode was people saying goodbye to each other

Weirdly, I would ordinarily complain about that being dramatic dead air, but given that Disco's status as a streaming show giving them more time for the episode to breathe, and that it was a nice moment, it didn't bother me.

Particularly Tilly telling her mother that she was proud of herself, even if her mother wasn't proud of her.

[UNOSEZ]

Yes... From before the mirror universe stuff last year I've been saying that this show will have to move itself to the future to not trample over all the established canon that these hardcore trek fans get real serious about.. Plus a new future means all sorts of story telling freedom.. So I'm excited about that.. The only thing left is for Spock to be separated from Michael so he can stay in this timeline... And as much of what discovery has been doing seems to be kept under wraps.. It explains why they aren't mentioned anywhere... Looking fwd to the season finale.. I hope they give us a small glimpse of the future they end up in before the end credits roll

[TV Anonymous]

11 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

They don't have that escape tunnel tech on any other version of Star Trek, even though it looked REALLY cool, it's still pretty much transporters and escape pods in the 24th century so kind of have to call BS there too.

I know that the real reason is that in TOG days SFX was more expensive and therefore the cost to create the tunnels might have been prohibitively expensive. And that was why TPTB created transporter, to save money from shuttle scenes.

In-universe explanation though, this is whole ship evacuation. They could argue that the transporter does not have the capacity to move almost 500 crew members simultaneously.

[Solara19]

Alex Kurtzman said that after this season the timeline will sync up with established canon, and it looks like this episode was moving all the pieces into place for that to happen.

And to set up the show for the third season.

Although I think the storylines have been muddled, and the evil sentient AI trope is an old and hoary one I did not need to see again, I will be pleased if the show does take the crew into the future and really does seek out new life and new civilizations.

It will then be living up to its name.

Boldly go, Discovery!

I will be happy if the show and the ship both go into new territory, thematically, metaphorically, whatever.

As for this episode, I loved the new look of the Enterprise, but the episode could have been called the The Long Goodbye.

Goodbye, actors leaving the show. Goodbye, barely seen but cool looking Enterprise.

They’ve got me hooked though for the finale. I really hope it is a good one.

[paigow]

3 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

In-universe explanation though, this is whole ship evacuation. They could argue that the transporter does not have the capacity to move almost 500 crew members simultaneously.

Since everything else was so advanced...there should have been "Enterprise-D" quality cargo bay transporters for bulk beaming....

[Unusual Suspect]

Okay, the cast killed all the tearful goodbyes ... but they all felt unnecessary, unhurried and ultimately not going to come to much (given that with Spock is on board, Discovery isn't going to get lost in time) given the stakes and timing around them. 

So, I found this episode a little frustrating as it seemed to be mostly setup for the climatic battle next week.

That said, oh my, Enterprise is looking FINE.

[marinw]

Does Po remind anybody of Princess Shuri of Wakanda?

Edited April 12, 2019 by marinw

[Lilly77]

I like Tyler, but thought the swelling orchestral music for his and Michael's goodbye and kiss was so over the top it nearly made me laugh.  

I really liked Po.  She gave the show a lot more spark.  And her treatment of Georgiou was extremely funny.  I hope they don't kill off Jett Reno.  There's so much potential with her character.

The Culber/Stamets thing is treated as such an afterthought on the show it may as well not be there.  A few 30 second discussions by or about them scattered over a handful of episodes does not a relationship make.  That being said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Culber didn't evacuate to the Enterprise after all and is still on Discovery somewhere.

[cdnalor]

20 hours ago, jcin617 said:

This was good but I feel like half the episode was people saying goodbye to each other

I just started fast-forwarding through all those scenes starting with the Culber/Stamets moment.  It tightened up the pacing considerably.

The Enterprise looked amazing with all the added details and the gorgeous bridge set.  I was just a tiny bit irked that they used the flared pylons from the movie version instead of the straight ones from the original series.

Also did crew members of the Discovery take over the Enterprise bridge?  That doesn't seem right.

[starri]

10 minutes ago, cdnalor said:

Also did crew members of the Discovery take over the Enterprise bridge?  That doesn't seem right.

No, they were just standing around on the bridge to pay their respects in the planned detonation of Discovery.

[Miles]

Just when you think it couldn't get any dumber, the DUMB increases to painfull levels.

•  So these dumbasses have forgotten that they previously traveled to the future through the spore network. Why else would nobody even bring it up as an alternative to the suit?
• Since they have forgotten that the spore drive can time travel, How in the hell is the second best option, jumping to the other end of the universe, not good enough? Control would never get there.
• Super suit can apparently be made in an afternoon.
• Why don't they even consider traveling to the past to prevent this bullshit from ever happening?
• But first and foremost, and this is the worst dumb ever: Why in the hell, would you not jump to the other end of the galaxy and charge the crystal there, you absolute numbskulls?! There they'd have all the time in the world. They could take a few months vacation, then figure out all the problems with the crystal over the next few years, maybe even find a real super nova so they don't need all the magitech and then, finally travel to the future. Instead these morons stay put to fight a bunch of section 31 ships? Why? Are they afraid their lifes might not have enough drama?!

Edited April 13, 2019 by Miles

[thuganomics85]

On one hand, I was really enjoying and cracking up at a lot that was going on in this episode.  But on the other hand, I realized that the majority of my favorites all involved characters that aren't even regulars.  Po basically being exactly like what a teenager would be like if she was queen.  Georgiou being Georgiou.  Pike and Cornwall reacting to Georgiou being Georgiou.  Reno not letting little things like the possible destruction of the universe stop her from continuing to take the piss out of Stamets.  Sarek and Amanda returning.  Number One/Rebecca Romjin apparently adapting PIke's use of foul language on the bridge.  I've even accepted that I like this version of Spock, even if no one will top the original.

I mean, don't get me wrong: I generally like the Discovery crew and all of the actors do good jobs, but it just feels like they've all been rendered a bit pact and boring (outside of the bits when Tilly gets to be... well, Tilly-ish), and don't seem to be allowed to be fun like the guest characters do.  And I still don't even know the names of half of the bridge crew (bonus points to Pike though for apparently remembering all of their names.  He truly is a great captain!)  Since the show is getting a third season, I really do hope they start giving them more depth and interest soon.

Anyway, so the episode was basically a set-up for the finale next week, and the main gist is that the signals are likely coming from a Future Michael after-all, who will be dawning her own special time-traveling suit, and is planning on sucking Discovery into the future, so that Control can't get its pesky hands on all that sweet, sweet info.  But, again, since this show is actually called Discovery, I really doubt the ship and its crew are going to be gone for very long.  But I'm sure there will be few more surprises in store.

It was cool seeing the Enterprise bridge though.

[paigow]

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

the main gist is that the signals are likely coming from a Future Michael after-all....

Doc Brown: Marty, whatever happens, do not interact with other versions of yourself....

[paigow]

On 4/11/2019 at 10:23 PM, ottoDbusdriver said:

How did Sarek's ship beat Control/Section 31 ships to Discovery/Enterprise ?  Is Vulcan right next door to Xahea ?

I was thinking that Sarek was using his "mind meld light year holo projection skills" ...but then he never bitched about enduring pain....

[Clanstarling]

On 4/12/2019 at 4:00 AM, lora said:

In STD Anson Mount made him my second favorite character along side Kirk, although in my opinion the actor is way cooler than both Willam Shatner and Chris Pine.

I don't know about cooler - but I would agree to Mount being a better actor than the Kirks. 😉

On 4/11/2019 at 7:23 PM, ottoDbusdriver said:

If both Burnham and Reno have touched the time crystal, does that mean that their destinies are also fixed ?

How did Sarek's ship beat Control/Section 31 ships to Discovery/Enterprise ?  Is Vulcan right next door to Xahea ?
 

I did wonder how Sarek even found the ship - given that Control messed with their communications.

I got a little lost in the time babble, but I'm okay with it. I loved the goodbyes, myself. I thought they gave a little dimension to the characters we don't know much about. And while I'm not a sucker for romances, I did like Burnam's fare well with what's his name.

The only thing that bothered me (and this is true in most action oriented stories, not just Disco) is the dawdling with long speeches and/or pauses when there's a literal countdown going on. I mean, how fast can Pike get to the transport room, and then get transported over to Enterprise, and then talk more, when there are only 4 minutes left on the clock.

I found it semi-amusing when the Section 31 ships were ringed around the Enterprise, and they said "we're surrounded." Which is true in one dimension, but space is three dimensional. Unless the ships are above, below and ringed, they're not quite surrounded. They still have options.

[macrone]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (tears) zzzzzzzzzzzzz (noble speeches as the music swells) zzzzzzzzzzzzz (more tears) zzzzzzzzzzzzzz (I love you!) zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (quirky pixie genius) zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (I love you all !!!) zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (tears, tears, tears) zzzzzzzzzzzzz (pointless goodbyes to characters we know are coming back) zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (more swelling music) zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (and we wind up exactly where we began)

[tkc]

12 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I found it semi-amusing when the Section 31 ships were ringed around the Enterprise, and they said "we're surrounded." Which is true in one dimension, but space is three dimensional. Unless the ships are above, below and ringed, they're not quite surrounded. They still have options.

Are you saying they're intelligent, but not experienced? That their pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking?

Perhaps this is why Spock can help Kirk defeat Khan in a few years' time...

[paigow]

5 hours ago, tkc said:

Are you saying they're intelligent, but not experienced? That their pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking?

When they all fire simultaneously, the Enterprise will jump to warp....Section 31 / Control / Skynet ends up killing each other....

[Joimiaroxeu]

Aw, Stamets and Culber. I was hoping they'd work it out.

Michael, there's a handsome guy waiting for you on the Calypso. You'll be fine.

A galactic rubber band with a martyr complex. That's our Burnham!

So except for Burnham will there be whole new cast next season? I'm confused and saddened by all the goodbyes. Maybe it's it's only a mass contract negotiation ploy on the part of the producers. 🙄

[soundwave]

Among other lines of the Xahea planet description there was such line: gravity [kg/m3]. I wonder in what units the author of this line measures density?

[Ottis]

Me the last 15 minutes of this ep: "GET ON With It ALREADY!" Jebus ducking kite. Is this Star Trek for emos?

 I like this show a lot. But it felt like the CW.

[SourK]

I love that Michael was like, "I'm going to go to the future like my mom!" and everyone else was just like, "Obviously that won't work and you'll get marooned in time somewhere."

I'm interested to see where Discovery ultimately ends up as it sets itself up for season three, and I... am willing to go along with this plot contrivance where the important characters all stay on the ship because they love Michael so much or whatever. But, normally you'd need a full crew to man a ship that size, wouldn't you? And why did random characters who barely know Michael stay behind? And LOL at Michael's parents saying they'll take care of Spock while Spock turns around and stays on Discovery with her (I think something will happen to separate him from everyone else in the season finale, but still).

Final question -- is Georgiou taking Tyler and Culber to her new show with her? I'd be down, if that's what's happening.

[paigow]

4 hours ago, SourK said:

Final question -- is Georgiou taking Tyler and Culber to her new show with her? I'd be down, if that's what's happening.

Section 31 is completely compromised...Culber said he was staying on Enterprise...not sure what kind of spin-off it will be if they are constantly fighting an AI...

[Starchild]

Can they just change this show's name to "Star Trek: Burnham" already?

[Kromm]

On 4/12/2019 at 4:48 AM, paigow said:

TOS reboot with Kirk and Number One 

You mean for that clearly very brief time they served together?

Edited April 17, 2019 by Kromm

[Kromm]

On 4/15/2019 at 8:23 AM, SourK said:

And LOL at Michael's parents saying they'll take care of Spock while Spock turns around and stays on Discovery with her (I think something will happen to separate him from everyone else in the season finale, but still).

That HAS to happen. Because it perfectly sews up why the other shows would act like she doesn't exist.  Because she's permanently stranded in time away from the rest of them.

That would necessitate the next season actually being a reboot of the show, so to speak.  Because they're never coming back. Period.

[Kromm]

On 4/12/2019 at 7:00 AM, lora said:

I hope Ash's secret mission contributes in saving everyone, and I am happy he didn't join Michael in her trip to the future. I am tired of him being just Michael's love interest this season. He's capable of so much more. 

Except he (clearly) can't ever appear on this show again.  Every last thing we've seen makes it crystal clear they're going to the future and never coming back. This won't and can't be Voyager. There's no way back. Zero.  Which of course is also why it's so certain something has to get Spock off that ship and back onto Enterprise.

So whatever Ash does has to be either off-screen, or even more likely on the Section 31 spin-off we know is coming at some point.

[MissLucas]

Ah well, if Discovery is really going to the future and stays there are work-arounds. There was this weird transporter accident that created a copy of Riker in TNG. They could use that to keep a create an accidental copy of Spock on the Discovery when he beams off to the Enterprise - not that I think they will just because I enjoy Peck's Spock. But they could!

[shrewd.buddha]

On 4/12/2019 at 10:42 PM, Miles said:

• So these dumbasses have forgotten that they previously traveled to the future through the spore network. Why else would nobody even bring it up as an alternative to the suit?
• Since they have forgotten that the spore drive can time travel, How in the hell is the second best option, jumping to the other end of the universe, not good enough? Control would never get there.

Basically, the above.. How can the writers forget the abilities of Discovery's spore drive when they overemphasized it at the beginning of the season? (It would take a warp drive ship hundreds of years to get there.)  There was no reason they should have had a one hour time limit before Control arrived - - except for the fact that the plot demanded it. 

Another glaring plot hole: The Red Angel suit must be used by Burnham because of its DNA coding? They are building a suit from scratch. They are not using an existing suit. How can a personalized DNA security setting be part of the design in order for it to work?!? My phone has a fingerprint reader for security - but it was't built specifically for my fingerprint. Gah..

Why does Michael insist that going to the future in a one-way trip? It may be a one-way trip for the Discovery if the Sphere data cannot be detached. (And no one is worried that the Sphere data has taken control of Discovery.) But if Michael is going to be stuck because of the time travel suit's plot-convenient limitations, that's not an issue: with  Discovery there, and all the other tech (because there is no evil AI), Michael can easily build another one-way time travel suit in just a few hours. She knows where to find more time stones. And really, why would anyone be so sure that Michael could never, ever figure out a way to return?

The showrunners and writers seem to focus all their efforts on the emotional angst scenes of the show: the good-byes, deaths, funerals, trying to put Giorgiou in as many scenes as possible, having every guest star (but not crew members) give Stamets and Culber relationship advice, bringing Sarek and Amanda out of nowhere for good-byes...

As others have said multiple times, the writing on this show falls far, far below the level of the other departments: special effects, set design, costuming, soundtrack, acting, etc. 

Edited September 22, 2019 by shrewd.buddha

[John Potts]

All this emoting is all very well, but don't you have a battle to prepare for? Take a page from Pike who hasn't (to our knowledge) spoken to anyone about his being crippled. Man up and get ready for battle, hug it out if you survive!

Liked the return of the Queen. At least she had the right sense of urgency by having to eat & talk and just got on with the job at hand.

Really glad the Empress responded to "There are no bad ideas" with an idea that everyone agrees is a bad idea (because I've always wanted to do that). I guess it must have been one of those Star Trek supernovas that manage to blow away not just the planets within its solar system but to explode faster than light and blow away a few neighbouring star systems too? But was her plan really so unthinkable? If Leland wins, everyone dies (or at least, is absorbed into whatever gestalt entity Control is). So better dead than red possessed by an all consuming AI, no? It's in the interests of everyone to defeat Control, pretty much at any cost.

On 4/12/2019 at 3:23 AM, ottoDbusdriver said:

Reno saw the same unexploded photon torpedo as Burnham saw in her vision -- that confirms it has to be important, probably a person inside it.  Possibly, Leland ?

Given what we saw last week, Control can separate bits of itself. He could probably take a page from Stargate's Replicators and lace his missiles with Nanobots that could infiltrate and co-opt the Discovery's computer systems.

On 4/12/2019 at 4:30 AM, jcin617 said:

Also why was Enterprise the only ship helping out and not the rest of Starfleet?

Normally, the Enterprise is "the only ship in the sector!" so it's actually an improvement that we actually have two ships to deal with this crisis!

Edited July 11, 2020 by John Potts

[Idiotboy]

"I am sure what you are going to say will be beautiful, Michael, but ... we are running out of time." Way to throw shade, Saru! (All the Saru scenes were good; Doug Jones does a marvelous of conveying subtle emotion through that mask.)

I love how my space girlfriend Georgiou is like an embedded Primetimer, snarking at all the bad writing (and costume choices).

Quote

A galactic rubber band with a martyr complex. That's our Burnham!

So true. And said by the best character on the show. Perhaps the only redeeming facet of Burnham's Mommy Issues is that they brought us Sonja Sohn, who always owns it.

"Spock: There are no words." Well played, Anson Mount. And did I miss a previous episode or has Po not been on Disco before? If I'd forgotten her it was merciful amnesia.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Idiotboy

[starri]

2 hours ago, Idiotboy said:

And did I miss a previous episode or has Po not been on Disco before?

She appeared in the Tilly-centered Short Trek "Runaway."