S08.E01: Winterfell

[MissLucas]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

My take on Stannis was that it was his overriding desire to be King, not his duty, drove him in his decision to kill his own daughter. There are lines you can't cross and still be considered someone worthy of loyalty and obedience. Burning your little daughter is well past that line. 

I was done with Stannis long before the burning of Shireen. He had his brother killed by magic and had his brother and sister-in-law burned alive. Never understood why people were surprised that he'd kill his own daughter. He never was king material but just a religious fanatic and grammar nazi.

[izabella]

59 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

grammar nazi.

That was my favorite thing about Stannis.

[BooBear]

14 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Even without being recognized as it, Jon has always been acting as the True King of Westeros by doing everything in his power to protect its people.

I truly don't understand how you could come to this conclusion. Jon bringing the Wildings south isn't that big of a deal (or even maybe wise) and actually he only saved like 1/3rd of them. We have no idea if that will result in war in the north in the future. Everything is hold because of the night king. As for Jon being elected King of the North I suspect any support he got was due to Sansa and the absence of a male Stark that could take that crown.  They put up with him but seems like a very weak alliance.  Umber won't even come fight with him.  Sansa is the woman behind the man in this case. Insisting that Jon fight for Winterfell, providing the troops to win, and keeping northern alliance and running the North while he goes off on missions. Ironically if they powers that be are looking for a male female partnership to run the seven kingdoms they should look at that model. 

Look at Dani. She eliminated slavery for Essos. If power were her only goal she could have sacked Kings Landing immediately but didn't because she didn't want the innocent hurt. And when told that the north was in danger she flew up there and lost a dragon. She now stands to fight with people she doesn't even know that seem to dislike her that could put everything she worked for at risk. 

Interestingly, the north seems very unaware of any of this... humn... maybe Jon doesn't want his "accomplishments" overshadowed. 

[GraceK]

19 minutes ago, BooBear said:

Interestingly, the north seems very unaware of any of this... humn... maybe Jon doesn't want his "accomplishments" overshadowed. 

Also, he threw Daenerys under the bus when he said in front of all the northern lords and his suspicious sister that he had “ to choose between his crown and the North, and he chose the North”,  failing to mention that she didn’t require him to bend the knee anymore and willingly pledged to fight along side him as equals. He gave up his crown on his own. Also, when Lyanna Mormont asked “ what are you now? He failed to mention that she named him Warden of the North in return, just as Ned Stark had  been for many peaceful years, and instead just said “ that doesn’t matter “, furthering the dislike. Dany came out looking terrible in that meeting when Jon could have made a vigorous speech telling them all she had done to at least TRY to assuage their suspicions. Instead we have Tyrion, a Lannister, speak up for JONS defense. No wonder they have a bad opinion.  Not even her advisor spoke up to mention that she let Jon mine dragonglass and provided him help to do that with no provisions! 🙄

Edited April 20, 2019 by GraceK
Typos

[ferjy]

On 4/16/2019 at 8:34 AM, Gummo said:

That just leaves Tormund and Jaime dueling for the hand of Lady Brienne. (LOL, I can dream, can't I?)

lol Tormund‘s my favourite. He has to be the one to win Brienne’s heart. 

Edited April 20, 2019 by ferjy

[Nanrad]

7 hours ago, One Tough Cookie said:

He'd rather have her pissing from inside the tent out than pissing in from outside in.

I've been thinking about Cersi and that terrible hair.  I remember it was cut for her walk of shame, but I thought it would grown out  I think she keeps it short to look more, masculine and less feminine as we all know how females were treated in KL.  She's channeling Tywin in his simple, authoritative black.

I saw it as he’d rather her not cut off her nose to spite her face. 

[ferjy]

7 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

My take on Stannis was that it was his overriding desire to be King, not his duty, drove him in his decision to kill his own daughter. There are lines you can't cross and still be considered someone worthy of loyalty and obedience. Burning your little daughter is well past that line. Stannis entered the Game of Thrones because he was pissed that Robert had been King instead of him and thought he was entitled to be king. He had his reasons, but duty, in my opinion, didn't factor in.

I always thought the same. He wanted to be king, period. Duty was all a pretense. Of all the violent scenes on the show, the burning of Shireen was the worst for me. I didn’t think much of Stannis up to that point, but that made me lose respect for him completely. 

Edited April 20, 2019 by ferjy
typo

[GodsBeloved]

45 minutes ago, ferjy said:

lol Tormund‘s my favourite. He has to be the one to win Brienne’s heart. 

Love it 😂 

[Clanstarling]

54 minutes ago, ferjy said:

lol Tormund‘s my favourite. He has to be the one to win Brienne’s heart. 

I'm not a shipper - I've never actively shipped any couple on any show...until Tormund and Brienne. I want them to survive and have giant ginger babies.

[CeeBeeGee]

1 hour ago, BooBear said:

As for Jon being elected King of the North I suspect any support he got was due to Sansa and the absence of a male Stark that could take that crown.  They put up with him but seems like a very weak alliance.  Umber won't even come fight with him.  

I think you mean Glover. Lord Umber (*sob*) was the little lord who adorably tried so hard to address Sansa, Jon and Dany with the correct styles, who said he needed more horses and was dismissed to go back to Last Hearth (his keep) to bring his men and...well, we saw what happened to him at the end. We didn't see Lord Glover but Sansa got a note from him saying he would stay at home to fight and that he wished them good luck or some such bullshit.

[LadyChaos]

2 hours ago, BooBear said:

I truly don't understand how you could come to this conclusion. Jon bringing the Wildings south isn't that big of a deal (or even maybe wise) and actually he only saved like 1/3rd of them. We have no idea if that will result in war in the north in the future. 

Because Jon knew that every man, woman, and child left North of the Wall, was another man in the AotD, so by saving the wilding, he was stopping the WhiteWalkers from growing his army, and added men to his army to fight the White Walkers........ but hey, yeah......its NO BIG DEAL.....

[BooBear]

1 hour ago, CeeBeeGee said:

I think you mean Glover. Lord Umber (*sob*) was the little lord who adorably tried so hard to address Sansa, Jon and Dany with the correct styles, who said he needed more horses and was dismissed to go back to Last Hearth (his keep) to bring his men and...well, we saw what happened to him at the end. We didn't see Lord Glover but Sansa got a note from him saying he would stay at home to fight and that he wished them good luck or some such bullshit.

Yes I meant Glover. Thanks. 

[GraceK]

16 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Because Jon knew that every man, woman, and child left North of the Wall, was another man in the AotD, so by saving the wilding, he was stopping the WhiteWalkers from growing his army, and added men to his army to fight the White Walkers........ but hey, yeah......its NO BIG DEAL.....

It’s definitely a big deal. Jon did the right thing and was absolutely putting the bigger picture ahead of the short term. I don’t think anyone is disputing that. Jon is my boo and I love him. He made a very unpopular decision for the greater good and he was murdered for it. Where the problem comes in is attributing this decision as a mark against Daenarys or as a way to show that Jon is better. That’s untrue. It actually shows a clear parallel to Daenerys making unpopular decisions, showing how she is breaking barriers and freeing slaves and choosing to stay and liberate people rather than sail to Westeros. Reopening the fighting fits and executing Mossador. Season 5 is meant to show similar ruling arcs and consequences.  

The difference is that Jon refuses advice that would save his life. He’s is too trusting. He rejects Stannis advice that he should send Thorne away because he is an enemy, and he doesn’t listen to Melisandre about keeping Ghost with him at all times. Both things come to bite him when Thorne plots against him and Ghost is locked up and can’t save him when he is stabbed to death.  Dany is criticized as too ruthless, but Jon has to be bailed out numerous times by his female relatives ( Sansa, Dany) rescued by Benjen, revived by Melisandre...That’s why IMO, it’s not a factor of Dany Vs Jon, as so many fans love to do, but Dany AND Jon. They are a perfect balance to each other, and together form a great partnership that would make the perfect rulers . They both have made mistakes , but they both have learned from them and can temper each other. Just my opinion. 

Edited April 20, 2019 by GraceK

[BooBear]

35 minutes ago, GraceK said:

It’s definitely a big deal. Jon did the right thing and was absolutely putting the bigger picture ahead of the short term. I don’t think anyone is disputing that.

He was right to do it but it isn't that big a deal in the larger scale question of what matters to the little guy of Westeros. They either don't care or are actively rooting for Wildings deaths.  Plus he failed at his big moment. He only saved like 1/3rd of them. So 2/3rds of them are now in the army of the dead. That is a "failed" mission.  This in no way qualifies him for leader of the 7 kingdoms. Maybe leader of the Wildings.  No one else really cares in this world. 

44 minutes ago, GraceK said:

He’s is too trusting.

And apparently unable to learn from these things.  I mean what will it take, for him to be stabbed in the back... oh wait... he has been stabbed. 

[Penman61]

On 4/17/2019 at 3:15 AM, BooBear said:

I did not like the dragon riding. I had assumed that if Jon ever was on a dragon it would come as necessity in the battle with the dead. I would have cut that scene.

Yeah, and scoring it with "Can You Read My Mind?" was a bit much...

Edited April 21, 2019 by Penman61

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, BooBear said:

He was right to do it but it isn't that big a deal in the larger scale question of what matters to the little guy of Westeros. They either don't care or are actively rooting for Wildings deaths.  Plus he failed at his big moment. He only saved like 1/3rd of them. So 2/3rds of them are now in the army of the dead. That is a "failed" mission.  This in no way qualifies him for leader of the 7 kingdoms. Maybe leader of the Wildings.  No one else really cares in this world. 

And apparently unable to learn from these things.  I mean what will it take, for him to be stabbed in the back... oh wait... he has been stabbed. 

Please explain how the Night King’s attack on Hard Home where two thirds of the wildlings were killed is Jon’s fault? Please explain why those wildlings who refused the peace treaty before the attack is Jon’s fault. The mission did not fail because of anything Jon did. Jon is no less qualified than any of the other players in contention, but he apparently has the strongest blood tie to the throne. Assumptions that Jon hasn’t learned anything or will be stabbed in the back again aren’t valid at this point.

[Constantinople]

18 hours ago, TheGourmez said:

Let us not forget that we also have Stannis Baratheon as an example of doing what duty demands over following his heart - he killed his own daughter  because he believed duty demanded it to win his throne. And his army deserted him, in large part due to disgust at his lack of humanity in that moment. Who's to say Jon's wouldn't have done the same if he'd abandoned Rickon on that field? Being able to read every action from multiple sides is part of the beauty of this story.

Rickon was already dead when Jon charged towards the Bolton army.

There's a slight difference between not avenging your brother's death at the cost of throwing away the lives of thousands of followers, and burning your daughter alive to further your ambition

[Law Mom]

Gendry and Arya: I have no issues with the sudden change in their relationship. Gendry had been a good friend to a young girl in crisis. When he saw her again he was as surprised as anyone to see the young woman she had become. As a man of few words, his comment “You look … good” is more than sufficient to establish a new romance. And to me the real reason people have issues with it is Gendry’s prematurely receding hairline which makes him look much older than he is. They should have put a wig on him.

Arya and Jon: Her face when she hugs him at the end of the reunion scene, omg crying now. Pure bliss.

Bran: Or as I like to call him, “Raven Bran.” Aah, I slay me. Anyway, when Jon called him a man and he replied “Almost,” he wasn’t saying he’s still a boy, he was saying he’s not quite human. Jon’s reaction was amazing, almost afraid. Hopefully they will make better use of his powers going forward.

Sansa: I totally agree with the poster who noted that she is the most relatable because she has no superpowers. She’s like Xander on Buffy, or Sam from LOTR. Just a regular person who uses their wits to survive.

Dany: I’m kind of over her. She is getting a god complex and it’s not pretty. I don’t fault her for executing the Tarlys, or for any of her other decisions really.  I just hate her constant veiled threats. The real test will be her reaction to Jon’s news. Also, her daddy killed Ned Stark’s daddy and brother for no reason so why would anyone in the North trust her?

Tarlys: And speaking of the Tarlys, I disagree with the poster who said Randyll did nothing to protect Dickon. He definitely gestured for him to bend the knee. Stupid boy gets the Darwin award for not obeying. How ironic that Sam may wind up getting his title back and his heir would be a wildling bastard.

Tyrion: He’s always been one of my favorite characters, but he needs to make himself useful and quick, because he is trending downward fast. I can’t wait to see his reunion with Jaime.

Dragons: Can someone tell me if the surviving dragons are male or female? I was wondering if they could mate and make more dragons.

Iron throne: To break the wheel you have to dismantle this piece of presumably very uncomfortable furniture. Return the seven kingdoms to seven kingdoms. Let each one send a representative to KL to keep peaceful relations. Essos manages without a central leader, so can Westeros.

Theon, Jaime, the Hound: Redemption arc candidates. That's a lot for one show. Will any survive? My guess is the Hound, so he can kill the Mountain. Theon and Jaime are toast.

Brienne: Need. More. Brienne. Please don’t make her die, Show. She and Tormund need to make great big babies together.

[Constantinople]

6 hours ago, BooBear said:

Jon bringing the Wildings south isn't that big of a deal (or even maybe wise) and actually he only saved like 1/3rd of them. We have no idea if that will result in war in the north in the future. Everything is hold because of the night king.

I think Jon is overrated, and held to a far lower standard than other characters such as Daenerys and Sansa, but

Jon went to Hardhome when no one else would have even thought about it, either because they wouldn't have had the imagination to think of it, or the willingness to go if they had. Jon may have only saved 1/3 of t he Wildlings, but better that than none. Without them, I doubt the Battle of the Bastards would have been possible. And it was brave of Jon to face the White Walker at Hardhome. Jon had no way of knowing Valyrian steel would kill the Walker. That's also extremely useful information

Also, the purpose of the Night's Watch isn't to kill Wildlings, but to protect the realm from White Walkers. Jon set the Watch back on their true path

If the Night King is defeated, there may be war between the pro and anti-Wildling groups. However I suspect so many will have died that people will be tired of fighting. Also, there will be no need because there should be plenty of land in the North to go around (and some Wildlings may want to return home)

[TaurusRose]

10 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I think Jon is overrated, 

Jon overrated?  Never!  He is my boo. 😍

[CeeBeeGee]

2 hours ago, Law Mom said:

 And to me the real reason people have issues with it is Gendry’s prematurely receding hairline which makes him look much older than he is. They should have put a wig on him.

Tarlys: And speaking of the Tarlys, I disagree with the poster who said Randyll did nothing to protect Dickon. He definitely gestured for him to bend the knee. Stupid boy gets the Darwin award for not obeying. How ironic that Sam may wind up getting his title back and his heir would be a wildling bastard.

Dragons: Can someone tell me if the surviving dragons are male or female? I was wondering if they could mate and make more dragons.

Brienne: Need. More. Brienne. Please don’t make her die, Show. She and Tormund need to make great big babies together.

Or just let Gendry's hair grow out. He's a handsome man but that buzzcut makes him look like a convict.

Randyll definitely did not want Dickon to do. That scene was tragic once Dickon insisted on standing next to his father. Such unnecessary death. But his father--even though he reached out for comfort at the last--was trying to dissuade him.

I believe, even though I often hear the dragons referred to as he, that dragons are unisex. But I've said this before, there's no way that the last three surviving dragon eggs just happened to be gifted to Dany--surely there are more. 

Brienne needs to have large babies with JAMIE. I will fight you on this! 😉 But yes, Brienne (along with the remaining two dragons and Lady Mormont) are tops on my list of Must Not DIe. Please please please please please......I already cried all night over Viserion. Please no more.

[TheGourmez]

13 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

My take on Stannis was that it was his overriding desire to be King, not his duty, drove him in his decision to kill his own daughter. There are lines you can't cross and still be considered someone worthy of loyalty and obedience. Burning your little daughter is well past that line. Stannis entered the Game of Thrones because he was pissed that Robert had been King instead of him and thought he was entitled to be king. He had his reasons, but duty, in my opinion, didn't factor in.

Unless I've forgotten some line of dialogue, I never had the impression Stannis wanted to be king of his own ambition - rather, once he learned he was the heir, it was his duty to be king, his right, and that right drove his actions, along with a certain redhead fanning his flames. To me, his ambition grew out of that right. If Joffrey had been a true Baratheon, I don't think Stannis would have ever risen up to challenge his nephew's claim, unlike Renly usurping Stannis's claim. I don't think Stannis ever wanted to be king instead of Robert, though he did resent that his younger brother became Lord of Storm's End rather than himself. Regardless, I think he viewed the battle in which he died as his duty, but also as part of his overall ambition to be king. It can be both at once. 

3 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Rickon was already dead when Jon charged towards the Bolton army.

There's a slight difference between not avenging your brother's death at the cost of throwing away the lives of thousands of followers, and burning your daughter alive to further your ambition

Yeah, I'm not going to agree with the perspective that Jon had time to ride back to his men after Rickon was struck. To my eyes, he recognized it was too late to go back at that point. But hey, mileage varies.

Edited April 21, 2019 by TheGourmez

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, TheGourmez said:

Unless I've forgotten some line of dialogue, I never had the impression Stannis wanted to be king of his own ambition - rather, once he learned he was the heir, it was his duty to be king, his right, and that right drove his actions, along with a certain redhead fanning his flames. To me, his ambition grew out of that right. If Joffrey had been a true Baratheon, I don't think Stannis would have ever risen up to challenge his nephew's claim, unlike Renly usurping Stannis's claim. I don't think Stannis ever wanted to be king instead of Robert, though he did resent that his younger brother became Lord of Storm's End rather than himself. Regardless, I think he viewed the battle in which he died as his duty, but also as part of his overall ambition to be king. It can be both at once. 

Yeah, I'm not going to agree with the perspective that Jon had time to ride back to his men after Rickon was struck. To my eyes, he recognized it was too late to go back at that point. But hey, mileage varies.

As I remember it, Stannis - even before Robert's death - was full of bitterness and anger (he thought Dragonstone was a poor reward for his support of Robert, I believe...though I could be wrong). I agree that he wouldn't have entered into the battle if Joffrey had been a true Baratheon. But I saw his decision to join the game as being provoked by Renly - he wasn't going to let his younger brother beat him out of the crown.

I agree that there can be multiple motives, but for me, Stannis' motive was always his desire to be king rather than his duty, and Melisandre fed into that desire. I do think, however, that he may have said that it was his duty - so that he didn't seem as nakedly ambitious as the rest of the contenders. But choosing to kill his brother kind of made his motives clear - to me, in any case.

Edited April 21, 2019 by Clanstarling
Because Stannis wasn't the oldest. My bad.

[GodsBeloved]

@Clanstarling I think Robert was the oldest.

[Clanstarling]

8 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

@Clanstarling I think Robert was the oldest.

Ah, you have it right. It was somehow cemented in my head that he was older than Robert. Maybe because he seemed older.

[BitterApple]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Ah, you have it right. It was somehow cemented in my head that he was older than Robert. Maybe because he seemed older.

He looked a good fifteen years older than Robert. Just going by the visuals, I would've assumed Stannis was the older brother too.

[Lemuria]

That  Robert was engaged to marry Lyanna tells you that he’s the oldest son. Lyanna was the only daughter of the Warden of the North, and the Starks were the most important House in the North.  There’s no way they would ever marry Lyanna to a second son. 

[gorgy]

Well, even if you doubted Gendry's relationship to Robert based on appearance, he is starting to look more and more like Stannis with the prematurely receding hairline.

Edited April 21, 2019 by gorgy

[ferjy]

On 4/15/2019 at 3:17 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Glad that Tormund and Dolorous Edd are both still amongst the living. 

And Beric Dondarrion, it was good to see the three of them. Love Richard Dormer. I was hoping Beric's lives hadn't run out!

Edited April 21, 2019 by ferjy

[ferjy]

On 4/15/2019 at 9:22 AM, filmfan2480 said:

Great first ep, in my estimation.  Only 5 left!?  Wahhh.

Waaa from me too. I still can't believe it's ending. Who do we have to bend the knee to to beg for more seasons?

[CeeBeeGee]

1 hour ago, ferjy said:

Who do we have to bend the knee to to beg for more seasons?

 [Davos] To whom do we have to bend the knee....[/Davos]

[enoughcats]

18 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Or just let Gendry's hair grow out. He's a handsome man but that buzzcut makes him look like a convict.

I don't know what convicts looked like in GOT times, mostly beheaded or burned, without any tonsorial input.

I can explain Gendry's hair, though.  He's a smith, and smiths deal with really hot fire that flares up.  When it flares up, it can remove hair, etc.   The hair on my forearms gets singed  when I flambe a dish in my kitchen.  My husband lost the middle of his unibrow when he started a fire (burning trash legally) and a flame shot towards him unexpectedly.  Didn't damage his brow, but shortened his eyebrows and removed the center but for a single hair. 

I'll just look at handsome Gendry and his fire given hairline.--

[BitterApple]

4 hours ago, ferjy said:

And Beric Dondarrion, it was good to see the three of them. Love Richard Dormer. I was hoping Beric's lives hadn't run out!

Me neither. I could listen to that man's voice all day.

Regarding Gendry/Arya, Gendry's an old-looking early 20s, while Arya is an extremely young, baby-faced 18. I think that's why the thought of them as a couple seems icky and inappropriate.

Edited April 21, 2019 by BitterApple

[DrSparkles]

On another note, is anyone else’s volume way off? On a scale of 1-100, I usually watch this show on, say, 30. Last Sunday, & now while I’m rewatching, it’s on 85. 🤔

[hypnotoad]

I'm rewatching the episode right now and I was struck again by my amusement at the look on Jon's face when he talks to Bran - err the three eyed raven. Also the look on Sansa's face when Jon looks at her like wtf is up with him. Hee.  And Sansa's look again when Bran says the whole thing about the Night King having the dragon. I know we don't have time for all of this stuff to be recapped for characters not in the know but somehow I would love to see Sansa explaining this stuff to Jon. Because of course she'd also have to explain the whole Arya and faces thing!

I forgot it along the way but I thought Dany handled telling Sam about his father and brother very well. I mean she didn't have to tell him but she did. And was upfront about it.

[2FarGone]

Drogon looking at Jon like, yeah you're banging your aunt.

[ferjy]

7 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

 [Davos] To whom do we have to bend the knee....[/Davos]

😆 I was actually picturing Davos shaking his head at me in disgust as I was typing it. But good grammar can sound so pompous at times. 

[CeeBeeGee]

6 minutes ago, ferjy said:

😆 I was actually picturing Davos shaking his head at me in disgust as I was typing it. But good grammar can sound so pompous at times. 

I know. It can feel so inauthentic. But I was DRILLED with "you cannot end a sentence or an independent clause with a preposition!" It hurts me NOT to--just my particular grammar tic 😉 

[ferjy]

2 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

I know. It can feel so inauthentic. But I was DRILLED with "you cannot end a sentence or an independent clause with a preposition!" It hurts me NOT to--just my particular grammar tic 😉 

No worries. 🙂 There was a character in The Last Man on Earth (the comedy TV series, not the movie) who was constantly correcting everyone who ended their sentences with prepositions, driving them all nuts. It was weird to hear it because although she used perfect grammar it sounded wrong. But the scenes were hilarious.

[taanja]

On 4/19/2019 at 7:38 PM, Nanrad said:

Back to Arya, she is young when she developed a crush on Gendry. She doesn't know how to feel about those feelings and, to her, liking a boy is considered girly (like Sansa), so she isn't really obvious about her crush. But, she clearly has a crush on Gendry that she's trying to hide in the scene where Gendry is shirtless. She didn't have those same moments with Hot Pie nor did she flirt or do a little twirl for him. Gendry has never been played or presented as a brother like figure for Arya. He was a friend who she developed a crush on, but one that she didn't actively entertain nor could she.

I never read the books and I am not spoiled in any way. The show itself never seemed to "go there" IMO Arya and Gendry were portrayed as friends bordering on brother/ sister sibling vibes. Nothing sexual especially since the last time we saw them together Arya was literally a child.

I NEVER saw a crush developing.

I am not sure what the age difference is between them is in the books-- but in the show he looks to be a good 10-15 years older than Arya.

[Luckylyn]

So much of Jon and Sansa’s current dynamic has been established because of how they grew up.  They don’t have a history of love and trust to fall back on.  They are learning who each other is now as adults and how to trust.  They are struggling to get past their childhood preconceived notions of each other.  Sansa was raised to view Jon as an outsider and Jon was treated by Caitlyn as if he weren’t family.  This can subconsciously effect their interactions.  When Sansa disagrees with Jon publicly to him it may bring back Caitlyn’s treatment of him.  Sansa was raised to feel entitled to Winterfell and Jon was supposed to inherit nothing.  Then Jon is named King and he gives that up to a stranger.  Sansa needs time to process that. 

I think Sansa and Jon have valid points.  Jon is right that titles and politics don’t matter right now and that defeating the Night King is the priority.   On the other hand, Jon isn’t thinking about what happens if they defeat the dead.   Those titles Jon doesn’t care about will matter a lot then.  So Jon is focused on immediate survival while Sansa is focused on the future.  Both points of view are important.  Sansa and Jon can be a great team with improved communication.

[Nanrad]

6 hours ago, taanja said:

I never read the books and I am not spoiled in any way. The show itself never seemed to "go there" IMO Arya and Gendry were portrayed as friends bordering on brother/ sister sibling vibes. Nothing sexual especially since the last time we saw them together Arya was literally a child.

I NEVER saw a crush developing.

I am not sure what the age difference is between them is in the books-- but in the show he looks to be a good 10-15 years older than Arya.

I never read the books either. 😏

[glowbug]

10 hours ago, taanja said:

I never read the books and I am not spoiled in any way. The show itself never seemed to "go there" IMO Arya and Gendry were portrayed as friends bordering on brother/ sister sibling vibes. Nothing sexual especially since the last time we saw them together Arya was literally a child.

I NEVER saw a crush developing.

I am not sure what the age difference is between them is in the books-- but in the show he looks to be a good 10-15 years older than Arya.

Interesting. I have read the books but I saw the first two seasons of the show before I read them. I saw lots of chemistry between Arya and Gendry during the second season and thought TPTB might be hinting at a romantic pairing later on. Arya meets Gendry when she's 12 (she's 11 during the first season and the show runners have said that each season is a year). We don't know how old Gendry is but if the age difference is the same as in the books he's 17 during season 2. He can't be much older than that because it's mentioned in season 1 that it's been 17 years since Robert's Rebellion and Robert wasn't in King's Landing until the end of the war. I wouldn't have guessed there was anything romantic between the two characters had I only read the books. I think it's mostly the chemistry between the actors that made me like them together. 

[Nanrad]

On 4/22/2019 at 9:17 PM, glowbug said:

Interesting. I have read the books but I saw the first two seasons of the show before I read them. I saw lots of chemistry between Arya and Gendry during the second season and thought TPTB might be hinting at a romantic pairing later on. Arya meets Gendry when she's 12 (she's 11 during the first season and the show runners have said that each season is a year). We don't know how old Gendry is but if the age difference is the same as in the books he's 17 during season 2. He can't be much older than that because it's mentioned in season 1 that it's been 17 years since Robert's Rebellion and Robert wasn't in King's Landing until the end of the war. I wouldn't have guessed there was anything romantic between the two characters had I only read the books. I think it's mostly the chemistry between the actors that made me like them together. 

There are many Arya and Gendry fans who ship them based off of the books.

[glowbug]

Just now, Nanrad said:

There are many Arya and Gendry fans who ship them based off of the books.

Oh, I know. I just wasn’t one of them. I felt the romantic aspect was stronger in the show. I was just pointing out that I thought their early interactions were romantic based solely on the show (in contrast to what the OP said about feeling like the show hadn’t gone there in the early seasons), and liked them together a little less once I read the books. I chalk a lot of that up to the chemistry between the actors, and the fact that Arya is a little older in the show so the writers could set the foundation for a romance between them (whether it is just sex in the second episode or something more serious) a little more clearly. Also, Gendry is one of the few characters I like better on the show. 

[Calamity Jane]

On 4/22/2019 at 5:23 AM, CeeBeeGee said:

I know. It can feel so inauthentic. But I was DRILLED with "you cannot end a sentence or an independent clause with a preposition!" It hurts me NOT to--just my particular grammar tic 😉 

Attributed to Winston Churchill:  “That is the sort of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put.”  (Probably apocryphal). The point is that that rule was cooked up by some scholars who ignored the Germanic core of our language. They felt the more French construction sounded more elevated, which it may sometimes, but you can drift into absurdities like the one attributed to Churchill. 

[gorgy]

So was that scene with the staring dragon supposed to be Bran warging into the dragon? I'm still not sure if that was explained.

[Nanrad]

3 hours ago, gorgy said:

So was that scene with the staring dragon supposed to be Bran warging into the dragon? I'm still not sure if that was explained.

Lmfao. 

I think it was just the dragon being weird, but I find it hilarious how creepy people find bran (within reason tho).

[Macbeth]

On 4/20/2019 at 3:40 PM, GraceK said:

Also, he threw Daenerys under the bus when he said in front of all the northern lords and his suspicious sister that he had “ to choose between his crown and the North, and he chose the North”,  failing to mention that she didn’t require him to bend the knee anymore and willingly pledged to fight along side him as equals. He gave up his crown on his own. Also, when Lyanna Mormont asked “ what are you now? He failed to mention that she named him Warden of the North in return, just as Ned Stark had  been for many peaceful years, and instead just said “ that doesn’t matter “, furthering the dislike. Dany came out looking terrible in that meeting when Jon could have made a vigorous speech telling them all she had done to at least TRY to assuage their suspicions. Instead we have Tyrion, a Lannister, speak up for JONS defense. No wonder they have a bad opinion.  Not even her advisor spoke up to mention that she let Jon mine dragonglass and provided him help to do that with no provisions! 🙄

Jon is not good at communicating at all.  My favorite example of this is at Hardhomme when Jon told a group of Wildlings that he was the one who had killed Mance, their King.  Tormund had to jump in and save his behind by telling the group that Jon shot an arrow in Mance's heart to ease his death as he was being burned alive at the stakes.

[Clanstarling]

45 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

Jon is not good at communicating at all.  My favorite example of this is at Hardhomme when Jon told a group of Wildlings that he was the one who had killed Mance, their King.  Tormund had to jump in and save his behind by telling the group that Jon shot an arrow in Mance's heart to ease his death as he was being burned alive at the stakes.

Excellent example. Factually true, leaving out important context.