S09.E14: Scars

[nodorothyparker]

Airdate 2019.03.17

Quote

An outsider's arrival forces Alexandria to rehash devastating old wounds. Secrets from the past are revealed.

MOD REMINDER:

This thread is for discussion of the episode.  Not spoilers from elsewhere, what happened in the comics, or news of cast future comings and going.  If you didn't see it happen in the episode onscreen, it doesn't belong here and will be removed.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

I'll sum up this episode in three words 

Fuck.Them. Kids.

[SimoneS]

Another great episode. Poor Michonne. No wonder she is traumatized and has trust issues. Those kids were brainwashed and brutal. I am glad at the least the last one ran and didn't hurt the children. I wish that we had gotten more of Rutina Wesley, but what we got was pretty good.

Hopefully, this puts an end to Judith running away, but of course, agreeing to go to the fair will end up being a huge mistake. But is nice that she and Judith are back on good terms.

Daryl had dialogue and looks clean. Hopefully, he is cleaning up for Connie.

Someone please stab Negan in the throat. Thank you!

Edited March 18, 2019 by SimoneS

[laschifosavita]

So, Danai Gurira is a really good actress. Even though the plot pieces still aren't fitting together, I'd still watch a worse show for her.

[mightysparrow]

Didn't like the episode too much; poorly put together.  But Danai was AMAZING.  If TWD is going to get an Emmy nomination, it should be for this episode. 

[Ohwell]

That was a big ol' steaming pile of horse shit. 

Danai was ok, acting-wise but the plot was boring as hell.  Also, the less I see of Little Miss Smart Ass Judith, the better.

[AngelaHunter]

3 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

That was a big ol' steaming pile of horse shit. 

Definitely. This is the first time the stupidity being fed to us made me quit before the end of the episode - well, what I saw of it between ads for shitty recycled Hellboy and Pet Sematary.

[Mu Shu]

Who got to see the whole thing? I got more commercials than anything.

this is just shitty writing.  Children of the corn.  What’s next? 

Michonne really needed to waste that blonde one who looked like twisted sister.  

[raven]

This almost could have worked if it were placed earlier in the season, just the kids from hell storyline.

We already know that Michonne, Judith and Daryl are fine, so no tension.  We know the new lady isn't around. 

This ep would have had impact if it came immediately after Rick (from their viewpoint) disappearing, then at least there would have been some tension to the scenes.  The branding was just goofy and the back and forth to present day was annoying.

And hey, if a bunch of murderous little brats are keeping me from my kids after stabbing me in my pregnant stomach, well, I'll do what I gotta.  So no worries, Michonne.

[Lady Iris]

I was getting a real Children of the Corn vibe from those murdering blood thirsty youngsters.

Nice to see Rutina Wesley again. 

[nodorothyparker]

DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT, discuss casting news here.  That means anything you may have heard or read about who's coming or going.  It will result in your post being removed.

[mightysparrow]

1 minute ago, raven said:

This almost could have worked if it were placed earlier in the season, just the kids from hell storyline.

We already know that Michonne, Judith and Daryl are fine, so no tension.  We know the new lady isn't around. 

This ep would have had impact if it came immediately after Rick (from their viewpoint) disappearing, then at least there would have been some tension to the scenes.  The branding was just goofy and the back and forth to present day was annoying.

And hey, if a bunch of murderous little brats are keeping me from my kids after stabbing me in my pregnant stomach, well, I'll do what I gotta.  So no worries, Michonne.

I agree that the positioning of the episode was completely off.  And it didn't REALLY answer the question about why Michonne was estranged from her friends.  I can understand why she doesn't want NEW people coming into her community but why would she cut herself off from the people she knows and loves.

Jocelyn and her feral kiddies would be a much better addition than the Whisperers are.

And, as I said in the live posting, this episode was a PSA for birth control in the ZA.  Not only the killer urchins  but it looks like Judith is running things now.   Between her and Henry, the younger generation completely sucks.

[nodorothyparker]

This was better in concept than execution but I didn't hate it.  The opening was a quite poignant bit of aftermath of the bridge going boom, or it would have been had we not had to sit through more than half a season of other stuff to see it.  Loved Daryl and Michonne interacting as they were both still hunting Rick and struggling to come to terms with not finding him.

The transitions between past and present were rather clunky and the whole thing with the scars felt like rather weak nonanswers.  Again,  if you're going to make us wait a half season for them, they better be damn good answers  that do indeed resolve the mystery you set up and are actually worth waiting for.

[mightysparrow]

I was spoiled so I was afraid tptb were going to throw Michonne under the bus and make her the bad guy child killer.  But I should have had more faith in Danai because she was able to turn this pig's ear into something not quite a silk purse but not total shit.

It was nice to see Michonne and Daryl interact.  I've been waiting for that since Michonne and Daryl aren't only both mourning Rick, they're friends.  Danai and Norman work well together; they should have had a chance to do more of it.

This episode just didn't pay off the setup, as usual.

[walnutqueen]

Steaming pile of dogshit - meet avocado toast.

I no longer look forward to Sunday evenings.  It is actually becoming somewhat of a chore,

[iMonrey]

Quote

Jocelyn and her feral kiddies would be a much better addition than the Whisperers are.

That's it exactly. I thought there was real substance to this story in a way we just don't see anymore. The real threat on this show has always been the survivors who go bananas and have warped ways of surviving in this new world. We've seen it with The Governor, with Terminus, and even with the Saviors. Honestly, the Saviors could have been a good storyline if it had been written (a lot) smarter and if Negan had been about 95% less campy.

But then at the end, the Whisperers show up and they just look downright silly by comparison. So if nothing else this episode proves we don't need these goofy cartoon villains on the show. Maybe they work better in the comics, and if someone who read the comics tells me eventually the Whisperers make sense that's another story. But so far they're just silly and they remind me of the junkyard people. Someone's idea of what they thought might be neat, or whatever, even if it doesn't make any sense.

[MVFrostsMyPie]

2 hours ago, laschifosavita said:

So, Danai Gurira is a really good actress. 

That's funny, I must have a UO cause her reaction when she first realized Rutina Wesley was her old friend, I was thinking, "wow, what an underwhelming reaction." I guess the wig sucks out some talent. 

[mightysparrow]

The Negan redemption arc is really getting on my nerves.  Either kill him or set him free for anybody who wants him dead to get a crack at him.  I can't believe Michonne stood there while he told her about her child. 

So little Judith knows all about her buddy, does she?  She knows that he killed Glenn and Abraham?  Does she know that he beat Glenn's head until his eyes popped out?  Does she know that he laughed as he beat the brains out of two good men, in front of their loved ones?  Judith thinks that it's her mean mommy that's keeping Auntie Maggie away.  Maybe somebody should tell her that one of the reasons Auntie Maggie is mad at mean mommy is that mean mommy won't let Auntie Maggie stick a shiv in Judith's playmate's guts.

Judith says she remembers a lot.  Does she remember the time that Negan ordered her nanny to be shot in the head, just because?  Has Negan told her about the women he kept in sexual slavery or the men who killed or mutilated for committing the crime of wanting to be with their partners?

Judith is being played by a master.  Like her father (or the man she THINKS is her father), her wee head is so far up her own butt she can't see that she's being conned.  Negan is playing on Judith's 10 year old vanity, that she knows better than the grownups, than her own mother.

Negan went back to the prison after his great escape because there wasn't anybody to fuck with in the outside world.  Nobody to remind that they were carrying out his shit.  He WANTS to be in that prison and Judith is too young and too sheltered by people who have busted their asses to keep her safe to know that.

What the ZA needs is some old Aunties to straighten these fucking kids out.  Carol should be doing the job, but she's too busy playing Queen of the Kingdom.  Maybe Brett Butler will become Auntie of the ZA and take care of business.

I don't think I'm the demographic that TWD wants to attract because I'm tired of these junior league stories.  In my opinion, in the ZA, children should be seen and not heard.

Edited March 18, 2019 by mightysparrow

[BellyLaughter]

sorry double post.

Edited March 18, 2019 by BellyLaughter

[BellyLaughter]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

That's it exactly. I thought there was real substance to this story in a way we just don't see anymore. The real threat on this show has always been the survivors who go bananas and have warped ways of surviving in this new world. We've seen it with The Governor, with Terminus, and even with the Saviors. Honestly, the Saviors could have been a good storyline if it had been written (a lot) smarter and if Negan had been about 95% less campy.

But then at the end, the Whisperers show up and they just look downright silly by comparison. So if nothing else this episode proves we don't need these goofy cartoon villains on the show. Maybe they work better in the comics, and if someone who read the comics tells me eventually the Whisperers make sense that's another story. But so far they're just silly and they remind me of the junkyard people. Someone's idea of what they thought might be neat, or whatever, even if it doesn't make any sense.

yep!  I'm not sure the end justifies the means when it comes to The Whisperer's........The whole arc just feels sooooo weak and as you said, silly.

Mopey Michonne is such a drag.

Edited March 18, 2019 by BellyLaughter

[catrox14]

This was stupid.  I don't fault Michonne at all for killing those kids. 

[sigmaforce86]

6 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

I agree that the positioning of the episode was completely off.  And it didn't REALLY answer the question about why Michonne was estranged from her friends.  I can understand why she doesn't want NEW people coming into her community but why would she cut herself off from the people she knows and loves.

Yes!  We're just left with a   "that was it?"   sort of feeling.  All this build up to some super bad betrayal falling out between everyone and the story this whole time was the kids got kidnapped and the world is bad - the governor, the termites, the claimers, the hospital group, the wolves, the saviors apparently didn't teach her that or because it wasn't kids and a former bff involved those groups just weren't as terrible.  But this was the big story that we're supposed to believe made her the closed off person she is today?  And Daryl helped!  He saved Michonne, her baby and the kidnapped kids and had her back the whole time and for that she now barely acknowledges him because................ he's not part of Alexandria I guess?  

Michonne needs to ask; if the gates are watched all the time and the sewers are barred down how does Judith keep getting out of Alexandria?  Does Michonne know she was out wasting bullets and hanging around with Neegan already?  Guess not since she was able to steal the gun and wander off yet again - there's a kid sized hole in that wall somewhere.   Seems like Judith takes after her brother in the "nobody knows where he/she is" area!

6 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

The transitions between past and present were rather clunky and the whole thing with the scars felt like rather weak nonanswers.  Again,  if you're going to make us wait a half season for them, they better be damn good answers  that do indeed resolve the mystery you set up and are actually worth waiting for.

Michonne's belly and Alexandria is less built up were pretty much the only clues.  Really subtle and not easy to see all the time which made it a bit of a pain because it seemed like we wasted the first 15-30 seconds of each scene looking for the clues on which time it was in.  Would have been less annoying to have a really simplistic but helpful "then" "now" tag at the bottom of the screen.

[Kanner]

2 hours ago, sigmaforce86 said:

Yes!  We're just left with a   "that was it?"   sort of feeling.  All this build up to some super bad betrayal falling out between everyone and the story this whole time was the kids got kidnapped and the world is bad - the governor, the termites, the claimers, the hospital group, the wolves, the saviors apparently didn't teach her that or because it wasn't kids and a former bff involved those groups just weren't as terrible.  But this was the big story that we're supposed to believe made her the closed off person she is today?  And Daryl helped!  He saved Michonne, her baby and the kidnapped kids and had her back the whole time and for that she now barely acknowledges him because................ he's not part of Alexandria I guess?  

Michonne needs to ask; if the gates are watched all the time and the sewers are barred down how does Judith keep getting out of Alexandria?  Does Michonne know she was out wasting bullets and hanging around with Neegan already?  Guess not since she was able to steal the gun and wander off yet again - there's a kid sized hole in that wall somewhere.   Seems like Judith takes after her brother in the "nobody knows where he/she is" area!

Michonne's belly and Alexandria is less built up were pretty much the only clues.  Really subtle and not easy to see all the time which made it a bit of a pain because it seemed like we wasted the first 15-30 seconds of each scene looking for the clues on which time it was in.  Would have been less annoying to have a really simplistic but helpful "then" "now" tag at the bottom of the screen.

Actually, the only one she seemed to consistently acknowledge (besides Alexandrians) was Daryl.  They were fine and even close when they captured Lydia.  He seemed to have an open invitation to Alexandria.  Michonne was surprised when Aaron told her he was not automatically let in and she let them in because of her trust for Daryl.  But I do agree, this story lends more to explaining why Alexandria shut its doors to outsiders and not the other communities.  It was too big of a leap from other people bad to all our friends and loved ones are bad.

[Lady Iris]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

interesting that the car still had side view mirrors attached to it.  Is that in case another car being pulled by horse try to pass them?

Safety first even during the ZA!

[theredhead77]

1 hour ago, Kanner said:

And Daryl helped!  He saved Michonne, her baby and the kidnapped kids and had her back the whole time and for that she now barely acknowledges him because................ he's not part of Alexandria I guess?  

1 hour ago, Kanner said:

Actually, the only one she seemed to consistently acknowledge (besides Alexandrians) was Daryl. 

I imagine their distance is partly due to Darryl being closed off in general and dealing with the loss of Rick and no closure. None of them are thinking he was whisked off in a helicopter with Jadis (do they even know there is a helicopter), they've been searching for his walker state to put him down and bury him.

This episode was great. It established RJ is a real child and not a hallucination, why Michonne changed and why Michonne and Darryl have a brand. It left me wanting to know more about Jocelyn and how she became the monster she was and if the adults in their party truly died or if she kidnapped her child-army.

[Ohwell]

The direction in this episode was chunky.  The only way I could tell "then" from "now" was looking at Michonne's changed hairstyle and her belly.  

[iMonrey]

Quote

And it didn't REALLY answer the question about why Michonne was estranged from her friends.

It also didn't answer what the fall-out was between Michonne and Maggie. I'm not sure we'll ever find that out unless Lauren Cohan comes back for a guest spot (or her new show tanks - which is looking more and more likely.)

[nodorothyparker]

I guess we can fanwank that Michonne became mistrustful of everyone who wasn't Alexandria precisely because she was so quick to trust Jocelyn and let her in.  They had clearly known each other from way back (Jocelyn mentioned it had been 15 years at one point.) and it never occurred to Michonne to wonder if every horrible thing that's happened in the ZA might not have also changed the person she used to know, even as it's been a recurring idea throughout the series that they've all had to do these horrible things to survive and protect the people they love and that those experiences have warped and changed them.   She didn't even think to question that every single other adult in Jocelyn's group "just broke" and that's why none of them are here now.  Maybe this far in people have learned not to ask, but it still seems like that should have set her to wondering that wait, every other last adult?  And yet you got away with all these kids intact?  Now everyone from the core group who's moved on to Hilltop or the Kingdom is out of sight out of mind everyday and she can't so easily know if they're still the same people she remembers and trusts.  I imagine that could very easily cause some hurt feelings among our long timers.

It's not a perfect explanation but it's what I've got.

The show has always tended to treat children as fonts of unadulterated wisdom instead of kids with limited experiences shooting their mouths off about things they couldn't fully understand.  If it didn't, Negan would rightfully be dead instead of sitting in Alexandria's one and only jail cell like a ZA Yoda because Carl of the fourth-grade education declared he should be spared as a teenage dying wish.  Now because Michonne is listening to Judith she's ferrying Daryl and crew, who very pointedly and for good reason wanted to keep a low profile, to the fair in her horse drawn minivan and calling a lot more attention to their presence in doing so.   Judith is definitely a Grimes in that.

I'm hesitant to ask just how long the show intends to keep Negan sitting around that one and only jail cell just to dispense wisdom because I dread the inevitable if unearned redemption arc I fear is coming when they do let him out.

[Boofish]

Ohhh Not Michonne had a better weapon than dead people skin - kids. No one wants to kill kids. But yeah, like I said in the Live thread - there is no age limit on the hands. 8 to 80 run up and get done up.  I can be Jesus or Rick. Try me and see who I decided upon that day.

I liked this episode and it made perfect sense why Michonne would cut off the world including people she knows and loves. Daryl ran off and did the same thing yet no one seems to be as upset with him. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Boofish

[Ohwell]

Looking at his face, it looks like Negan has gained a bit of weight.  I think he's kinda hot now.  Jail suits him.

[Persnickety1]

11 hours ago, walnutqueen said:

Steaming pile of dogshit - meet avocado toast.

I no longer look forward to Sunday evenings.  It is actually becoming somewhat of a chore,

Oy, agreed.  

I remember when I used to be excited all day Sunday waiting for the newest episode to come on and be in front of the TV, snacks and beverage in hand, at least 10 minutes before it started.

Last night?  I finished watching a 2-hour episode of My 600 Lb Life before I even switched to AMC.

The thrill, as they say, is gone.  

The Children of the Corn/Lord of the Flies subplot could have been so much better had it been done earlier in the season and not with the clunky time jumps.  

Too bad Henry didn't join up with the feral beasts and disappear.  

At least the closed captioning wasn't as atrocious as it was last week.

That's all I got on this episode.  

Edited March 18, 2019 by Persnickety1

[oakville]

I can't figure out what happened to the other adults that were with Jocelyn's group.

Was it explained how they died?

[AngelaHunter]

40 minutes ago, Persnickety1 said:

The thrill, as they say, is gone.  

After being forced to stop watching this silly dreck last night, I had to go look up this for comparison. One of the greatest - if not THE greatest scene of this show, IMHO. This got me back into watching after I quit in Se02. Not only no monologuing but truly great without a single word spoken and none were needed:

[Ohwell]

While I understand calling Michonne "mommy" because she's the only mother she's ever known in her short life, Judith does know that Michonne isn't her real mother.  Right? 

[OoohMaggie]

38 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

One of the greatest - if not THE greatest scene of this show

Aaahhhhh, chubby cheek Maggie and short hair Carol, those were the days, boy  those ‘Walkers’ could move back then.

[iMonrey]

Quote

The Children of the Corn/Lord of the Flies subplot could have been so much better had it been done earlier in the season and not with the clunky time jumps.  

I don't have an issue with the timing but I do take issue with this show's increasing reliance on mysteries. The time jump presented a lot of unanswered questions and it's taking them a long time to answer them. This isn't Lost. This show doesn't need that kind of manipulation to keep audiences invested. Or, if it does, it shows the failings of the current writing regime because the show never needed trickery and sleight of hand to keep audiences engaged at the height of its success. We are inarguably at the nadir of this show's popularity and, seemingly, the only tool the writers have left in their arsenal is "keep them guessing." That's just frustrating, not compelling.

Quote

While I understand calling Michonne "mommy" because she's the only mother she's ever known in her short life, Judith does know that Michonne isn't her real mother.  Right? 

Yes, she knows. When they were having their heart to heart at the end, Judith pointed out that Michonne chose to be her mother.

[xls]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

This was stupid.  I don't fault Michonne at all for killing those kids. 

ITA. They came at her & she had to protect her baby.

[OoohMaggie]

From crazy child catcher to ‘Mich’ taking brat to the Fayre is roughly five years, that seems a long time to keep your community in isolation. Would the other Alexandrians really have let the situation last so long?

Was the scars incident bad enough to keep your years long friends and allies out in the cold? I don’t think the end result justified the big, mysterious build up and think the time could have been better used to continue the Whisperer conflict, which after getting going just had the brakes slammed on.

How many parents would sit in Alex while their kids were in the hands of a murderous bunch? Big tough Scott skulks behind the walls while pregnant Michonne puts herself in harms way, why didn’t they just show us the other parents searching a different area, believable and the spotlight still shines upon the dynamic duo.

[Ohwell]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Yes, she knows. When they were having their heart to heart at the end, Judith pointed out that Michonne chose to be her mother.

Ok, I had zoned out towards the end and missed that part.

[Boofish]

Michonne finally had to tell Judith she was "doing stuff" "thaaaangs" 

[OoohMaggie]

31 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I have no other explanation as to why Michonne had issues with Maggie.

I thought it was the other way round, when Tara gave Zeke Michonne’s charter, Jesus stated that “Maggie’s not exactly the biggest fan of Michonne right now”, but who knows,I hope there is a better reason for the rift, it could be that Maggie was just pissed off with Michonne’s seemingly selfish attitude, especially after all they have been through together.

[Gemini Gipsy]

I don't usually care for kids on shows but Judith is hella entertaining. 

Danai's acting and an appearance from Rutina Wesley was the only thing that carried this show. I hated the back and forth, mostly because my husband complained about it the whole damn episode.

All in all the whole concept was TRASH. I would have rather watched an entire episode about how Daryl obtained Dog.

I want to see Negan more, seeing him for a collaborative 2 minutes per episode is not cutting it.  He is absolute gold.

2 minutes ago, OoohMaggie said:

I thought it was the other way round, when Tara gave Zeke Michonne’s charter, Jesus stated that “Maggie’s not exactly the biggest fan of Michonne right now”, but who knows,I hope there is a better reason for the rift, it could be that Maggie was just pissed off with Michonne’s seemingly selfish attitude, especially after all they have been through together.

Yah...I agree....."she won't share" doesn't seem like a solid reason, even if it was, surely they would have been able to work it out. Hope an explanation is out there, because this is just sloppy.

[Gemini Gipsy]

3 hours ago, oakville said:

I can't figure out what happened to the other adults that were with Jocelyn's group.

Was it explained how they died?

She was very vague, I think all of those kids were kidnapped and recruited into her army, just as she planned to do with the kids of Alexandria. She just said the adults couldn't cope but I don't think there ever were adults with her. My theory. Could be wrong.

[OoohMaggie]

3 hours ago, oakville said:

I can't figure out what happened to the other adults that were with Jocelyn's group.

Was it explained how they died?

It wasn’t, but all those adults ‘not making it’ would be pretty unlikely without psycho having a big hand in their demise.

[Lady Iris]

17 minutes ago, Gemini Gipsy said:

All in all the whole concept was TRASH. I would have rather watched an entire episode about how Daryl obtained Dog.

We totally need a Dog origin story!

[Gemini Gipsy]

3 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

We totally need a Dog origin story!

Yes, a stand alone epi for Daryl & Dog!

The dialogue would have been enlightening and intelligent for once in a great while.

Where do I sign up?

[dvil]

7 hours ago, Ohwell said:

The direction in this episode was chunky.  The only way I could tell "then" from "now" was looking at Michonne's changed hairstyle and her belly.  

The change in color temperature was a dead giveaway. FTWD uses the same method to depict flashbacks.

[Ohwell]

9 minutes ago, dvil said:

The change in color temperature was a dead giveaway. FTWD uses the same method to depict flashbacks.

I didn't notice the change in color temperature. 

[lynxfx]

11 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

I didn't notice the change in color temperature. 

It was too subtle. I think I only noticed it once when they opened the gate it had a yellower tint.

To this day I think LOST still has the best indicator for a flashback, the wooooooooosh sound effect before the scene starts. 

[Mu Shu]

15 hours ago, catrox14 said:

This was stupid.  I don't fault Michonne at all for killing those kids. 

I fault her for not offing that churlish blonde brat.

SO...Michonne is from ATL.  Somehow, her close friend shows up in the exact same spot, somehow escaping notice of the whisper idiots who are so fearsome.  She drags along a bunch of children, because children, who are weaker and slower than adults and lack critical thinking skills somehow outlive more able adults. 

Sure Jan.  

Edited March 18, 2019 by Mu Shu