River Song: "Spoilers"

[Lisin]

I just love this character so much and I also cry a lot when she's around.

[April Bloodgate]

I cannot wait to see her interact with Capaldi's Doctor. (Rumor has it she will show up in season 8.) Also, I really wish Moffat hadn't written it so their timelines are all screwy. I would love to have River and the Doctor together for a significant period of time.

[Lisin]

Agree! I love her so much but I do wish we could have her for longer stretches at a time. She's so great!

[Gracie]

Count me in on the River Love.  I loved the chemistry that she and 11 had; however, I am anxiously waiting on seeing her with Capaldi.  If an episode with the two of them is actually going to happen, my toes would curl and my head would explode from the hotness. 

[Saint TV]

OMG, I've found my people! I adore River. I loved her with Eleven - sizzle. Unfortunately, I can't imagine her having that much chemistry with Capaldi.

[Vikitty]

I felt like River's story concluded beautifully in The Name of the Doctor but I would not be opposed to seeing her again. She and Matt had such amazing chemistry that I really don't feel like it would be the same with Capaldi.

Prove me wrong, Kingston!

[HauntedBathroom]

I have faith in Alex and Peter - the chemistry might be different, but I think it'll be there.

[EC Amber]

le sigh. I do not share in the love. BUT I do not hate. I enjoy the character, but her story lacked enough linearity for me to feel like I could connect. 

What I found fascinating with Kingston is that she could work with a man 20 years younger than herself and create some really amusing and flirty chemistry. And while it wasn't devoid of sexuality, they managed to give it a depth of bond that made it feel more legitimate than if it were merely wrapped in unbridled passion (thank you for not doing that to us!)... all in all pretty damn impressive acting chops in that regard. 

[BizBuzz]

I am in the camp of love for River. But I also love it that she just pops up for short story lines every now and then. I would love to see her pop up with Capaldi, that would be interesting.

[ohjoy]

What I found fascinating with Kingston is that she could work with a man 20 years younger than herself and create some really amusing and flirty chemistry. And while it wasn't devoid of sexuality, they managed to give it a depth of bond that made it feel more legitimate than if it were merely wrapped in unbridled passion (thank you for not doing that to us!)... all in all pretty damn impressive acting chops in that regard. 

I love River (and Alex Kingston in general), but I adore Eleven/River for this very reason. I'm a fairly new Doctor Who fanatic, but I fell hard and fast for the Eleventh Doctor in general and Eleven/River in particular. I'm very much looking forward to seeing the next iteration, but River's last appearance was so beautiful that I almost don't want to see her again at the risk of diminishing those final scenes. (Almost. It is Alex Kingston.)

[Vikitty]

I know, the chemistry between those two was ridiculously believable. It gets to that point where you forget that they're acting, you actually believe these two people are in love.

I don't doubt that if River returns, she'll have chemistry with Capaldi as well. Hell, she even had chemistry with Tennant during her original two-parter, and it was unreciprocated. I think Alex Kingston could have chemistry with pretty much anything.

[Amelia]

I'm really torn about this! I wanted a clean break with the Christmas special and I thought that with a new Doctor would be a "new River Song" or something like that. I had also sort of convinced myself that Tasha Lem was a regeneration of River Song--which is 96% not true (though, stranger things have happened!). But on the other hand, I love Alex Kingston and the fact that she can have chemistry with a block of wood. So hooray! 

[Ripley68]

New to Doctor Who, just watched the episode where we find out what River's secret is.  I love the whole "spoilers" thing, and whenever they need her, her breakouts from the jail - "sir, she's packing again," "you can turn off the alarm, I'm not breaking out, I'm coming back."

 

Loved that she had been skating with the Doctor and we didn't see it.  Love all sorts of stuff.

[StillNotGinger]

I know, the chemistry between those two was ridiculously believable. It gets to that point where you forget that they're acting, you actually believe these two people are in love.

I don't doubt that if River returns, she'll have chemistry with Capaldi as well. Hell, she even had chemistry with Tennant during her original two-parter, and it was unreciprocated. I think Alex Kingston could have chemistry with pretty much anything.

I think Alex Kingston could have chemistry with a rock. I adored her and Eleven together. And I'm thrilled that we actually got a very sexy kiss between the two of them in "The Name of The Doctor". Other Doctor kisses have been so chaste or played for comedic effect (although I would have been very grossed out if Nine's kiss with Rose had been sexy. Jack's kiss wasn't long enough!). I love that Matt Smith wanted to keep River to himself.

[RedHackle]

love River (and Alex Kingston in general), but I adore Eleven/River for this very reason. I'm a fairly new Doctor Who fanatic, but I fell hard and fast for the Eleventh Doctor in general and Eleven/River in particular. I'm very much looking forward to seeing the next iteration, but River's last appearance was so beautiful that I almost don't want to see her again at the risk of diminishing those final scenes. (Almost. It is Alex Kingston.)

 

This, all of it. Total agreement.  Like you, as much as I ADORE River and light up at her appearence, I almost don't want to see her again - love her that much.  And her and Eleven together?  Yow.

[tessaray]

There was a brief mention of River in today's episode (The Caretaker).  I like that he still talks about her but I can't really picture PC's Doctor with her.  YMMV... 

[Kalliste]

I like that 12 mentioned her in today's episode although I don't quite understand why he'd live with Otters because of an argument with River.. all I can think is she told he wouldn't be able to or she stole the tardis and left him with a bunch of Otters.. I feel either of these could work with River :)

 

I'd love to see her with Capaldi, unlike most of this thread I didn't care for her with 11 and felt she was wasted on him. I'd have much preferred to see her more with 10 and now, hopefully 12.. 12 needs someone that isn't going to put up with his crap and I think River would do that as, unfortunately, we probably won't get to see Donna again because she'd be perfect.

[fantique]

I adore River Song. I wish she was a real person. I think this possibly one of the few characters I have creepy levels of fandom feels for. Pretty much what everyone else said, I would just grin stupidly every time she would appear on screen. I do agree that her last moments were so special I can't imagine better so I just want to protect my memories of her. I do want to see her again though so maybe it will pay off. I am curious about seeing her with 12 but Alex Kingston can create chemistry out thin air. Writing this makes me realise how much I love her. SIGH...

[Amelie06]

I love River. She was totally over the top and could be a bit obnoxious, but I loved her still. One thing that kind of irks me about the Doctor is that he is constantly getting his ego stroked by various companions and guest stars. I like that even though River was crazy obsessed with him, but also saw him for who and what he was. It is kind of annoying that her story is one of a woman basically focused on one man (to the exclusion of anything or anyone else) for her entire life, but I think she still managed to seem strong.  She still managed to see the Doctor, not as some mythical creature, but as a man who sometimes didn't know what the fuck he was doing.  Instead of being cowed by his righteous anger, she would meet it and get her point across.

 

I also like that River kind of ended the idea of the asexual doctor. At first I was taken aback by her flirty nature, but after awhile I came to appreciate it.

 

I'm torn about whether I would even want River to come back again. I really loved the chemistry between Eleven and River. I don't know that I care to see her with Twelve.

[MDL]

I started watching thew show when Tom Baker was the Doctor. Due toTV schedules/work/life etc. I did not see much of the show for the intervening years, only recently picking it up again-a bit of David Tennent, a bit of Matt Smith, some Peter Capaldi.-So I missed a LOT!

 

My question: is there a simple explanation for River Song' s saying  (paraphrasing) that "her past is the Doctor's future" and "every time I see him, I know him more, but he knows me less" ?? a link, article?

Thanks in advance.

[Llywela]

My question: is there a simple explanation for River Song' s saying  (paraphrasing) that "her past is the Doctor's future" and "every time I see him, I know him more, but he knows me less" ?? a link, article?

Thanks in advance.

Basically, they meet out of order. The first time the Doctor meets River is the day she dies - she knows all about him, because from her point of view she's known him for years, but to him she's a stranger. Then he meets her again and again, but going approximately backwards, so that almost every time he meets her (on-screen, at least, they have loads of other encounters off-screen) she's a bit younger and knows him less well, so that eventually she's meeting him for the first time, but the version of him she meets is a Doctor who knows her future inside out. And vice versa.

 

Picture the timeline of their relationship as a long straight line. The youngest version of each character is at either end of that line and they move along it in opposite directions, so that from each of their points of view, every time they meet each other the one knows more and the other knows less.

 

That probably makes no sense at all, but it's the best explanation I can give!

[Kalliste]

It makes lots of sense :)

 

I wonder if there is (I'm sure there is) a timeline of the order things happened in.

[ohjoy]

None of the ones I've seen appear to be complete. I saw a really clear infographic that was easy to understand, but it was done just before the beginning of Series 7 and was never updated afterward.

[kassygreene]

There are several fan built videos of River Song's timeline from her point of view.  This is one I like.

[MrHufflepuff]

That's a well-done video.  But, man, does that just lay out for me how convoluted and annoying I find the whole Melody Pond/Kovarian/Slience/Mels/Demon's Run plot-line.   I do love River Song, though.  I just wish they hadn't subjected her to that plot arc.

[Archery]

I was rewatching the Library episodes today, and I really love that River is so sad that the Doctor doesn't know or trust her yet -- and she keeps on saying, The younger you is so much work! More affecting even than her sacrifice, to me, is when she apologizes and whispers his name to him. There's so much packed into the fact that she apologizes.

[ratgirlagogo]

Much as I love Peter Capaldi, I really, really, really, REALLY was hoping River Song was going to be the next Doctor.  I'm still hoping for it in fact.

 

Hello, sweetie........

Edited January 4, 2015 by ratgirlagogo

[alias1]

River Song - she will never be the Doctor.  Perhaps if she hadn't given up all her future regenerations it might have worked.  But at this point I'm not a big River fan anyway (used to be before Moffat demystified her).  Perhaps a new Romana.

[Llywela]

River could never be the Doctor anyway, because she is a completely different character with a completely different origin story, plus she's had a romantic relationship with the Doctor. He's hardly going to marry himself.

 

Could Alex Kingston have played a female regeneration of the Doctor if she hadn't already been cast as River Song? Perhaps, although I'd hope for a less one-note performance in that case. But it is what it is.

[ketose]

Technically, a Time Lord can choose the form of their regeneration. However, the Doctor usually dies in some dramatic fashion and I guess he loses the ability to determine his new persona.

[Llywela]

Technically, a Time Lord can choose the form of their regeneration. However, the Doctor usually dies in some dramatic fashion and I guess he loses the ability to determine his new persona.

On-screen, we've only seen three real Time Lords regenerate, and River Song as a human-Time Lord hybrid. The Doctor, of course, has had many regenerations, and has never been able to control them (except for the aborted 10th Doctor regeneration). He has also often suffered a form of mania post-regeneration. Romana was shown to regenerate once on-screen, except that the actresses didn't overlap and the regeneration hadn't been set-up by storyline, so it was played for comedy with Romana randomly regenerating for no apparent reason and 'trying on' various bodies before settling on one she'd previously seen and liked - that's where the notion that a Time Lord can control regeneration comes from, Romana's single regeneration, rather than the Doctor's multiple experiences. Because they don't track neatly.

 

The Master has only regenerated properly on-screen once (his previous significant changes were body snatches, because he'd run out of regenerations), from Jacobi into Simm, and there's no real evidence for or against control over the form he ended up in. In the Classic era we met other Time Lords who had regenerated, but never saw the actual regenerations

 

And River/Melody regenerated twice on-screen, and wasn't shown to be able to control the form she ended up in, although she could modify it slightly post-regeneration.

 

So, regeneration is something of a grey area!

 

But it wouldn't work to have an actress who'd already played a significant role come back as a future version of the Doctor - too confusing, and for what benefit? In the Moffat-era especially, it would become just another gimmick. Capaldi and C Baker had both appeared on the show before being cast as the Doctor, but both were relatively minor roles, one-off guest appearances. River Song is an entirely different kettle of fish.

[elle]

River Song is an entirely different kettle of fish.

Ah, cold/flu season, making simply things ridiculously funny.  I read this and my first thought was "boy wasn't River lucky that Lorna Bucket was from the Gamma Forests and not the Gamma Sea.  Who knows what variation of "Melody Pond" would have come up?  And just what would she have done with the name Williams?"

%-)

[ratgirlagogo]

 

River Song - she will never be the Doctor.  Perhaps if she hadn't given up all her future regenerations it might have worked

River could never be the Doctor anyway, because she is a completely different character with a completely different origin story, plus she's had a romantic relationship with the Doctor. He's hardly going to marry himself.

 

I know what you all are saying.  Except that if there is a show that has been functioning on retcons for decades it is Doctor Who.  I don't think they're going to make her a Doctor either but I'm not going to stop wanting it to happen. 

[BizBuzz]

Hmmmmm...interesting...

http://www.blastr.com/2015-5-7/alex-kingston-says-river-song-not-done-doctor-who

[elle]

No...(whimper)

 

and we have yet to see our Time Lord show up at her door with a new suit and a new haircut and give it to her. The screwdriver, that is.

I thought that was covered in the webisode 'the night of the doctors' or something where she and Eleven keep crossing paths in one night?  I know I have seen a scene where Eleven is talking to himself saying something about taking River to see the singing towers for her birthday and the other Eleven replies "isn't that when..." and Eleven replies yes.

[Llywela]

I thought that was covered in the webisode 'the night of the doctors' or something where she and Eleven keep crossing paths in one night?  I know I have seen a scene where Eleven is talking to himself saying something about taking River to see the singing towers for her birthday and the other Eleven replies "isn't that when..." and Eleven replies yes.

This is the trouble with the webisodes - not everyone sees them or even knows they exist. So they really should not be used as a vehicle for significant plot points or character development. What is aired on TV should stand alone, we should not need to refer to additional material.

[elle]

This is the trouble with the webisodes - not everyone sees them or even knows they exist. So they really should not be used as a vehicle for significant plot points or character development. What is aired on TV should stand alone, we should not need to refer to additional material.

I know, I know...sigh...But it did exist, so I am not imagining it!

 

I guess I really should not concern myself with this possible development as I have given up on this version of the Doctor.  Still, I will continue to look at ...spoilers.

[HauntedBathroom]

I really want to see River back. I'd love to see her interaction with Capaldi.

[alias1]

OK. Really unpopular opinion here.  The entire River story was so convoluted, I don't ever want to see River again.

[elle]

Not sure if the video game is "canon" but in The Eternity Clock video game River's diary entries reveal that she has gone back in time to meet doctors 1-9 and then wiped their memories so they wouldn't remember it.  

Since this is about River, I brought this over here...

 

Well, it does fit in with River's personality - time travel, I can visit all the Doctors!  It seem rather arrogant on the part of the writer, the idea of her erasing their memories, (did she borrow an MIB "zappy thingy"?).  It would have been much more clever of her to observe them and not interact (I saw you and you never even knew I was there).

 

I'm guess I am to be content that this isn't considered canon.

[Vikitty]

I'm currently rewatching the Matt Smith years of DW and I still can't get over how much chemistry he & Alex had in Time of Angels, their very first episode working together (and actually the first ep of S5 that was filmed--they brought Alex on board for those episodes so Matt and Karen would have a veteran there to kind of ease the way in).

[penguinnj]

 

It would have been much more clever of her to observe them and not interact (I saw you and you never even knew I was there).

I agree, but it was kind of funny to read the observations she makes about the various doctors- i.e. she gets on great with 3, finds out 4 has a whole room of scarves, and loves the way 6 decorated the Tardis :)  I LOL and can easily sync this with my canon for River- sort of goes with the way she is written in First Night/Last Night and I love the idea that the doctor isn't the only one with secrets.

[call me ishmael]

I agree, but it was kind of funny to read the observations she makes about the various doctors- i.e. she gets on great with 3, finds out 4 has a whole room of scarves, and loves the way 6 decorated the Tardis :)  I LOL and can easily sync this with my canon for River- sort of goes with the way she is written in First Night/Last Night and I love the idea that the doctor isn't the only one with secrets.

This is part of the reason i got tired of River. I love AK but basically Moffat should just have had the nerve to have a female Doctor instead of playing at having a female Doctor. In the end i found i was more sympathetic to River at the end of the Library than i was at any other time. And having both River and Clara visiting the Doctor's past without them knowing it is one self-indulgence too many for me. Whether it is canon or not.

[penguinnj]

 

And having both River and Clara visiting the Doctor's past without them knowing it is one self-indulgence too many for me. Whether it is canon or not.

I guess I am a bit more pro-River than Clara.  I have had to watch Clara's episodes many times in order to warm to her, whereas River I liked right off.  And, for me, it is all right for the doctor's wife to revisit his past- how else is she supposed to have photos of all of his faces etc- as opposed to a companion who has conveniently lived through all of his regenerations -via the Night of the Doctor while still relatively unknown.  I would expect The Doctor's Wife to meet all of him incarnations- otherwise how is she supposed to know she loves "the doctor" as opposed to just having a thing for 11?  And BYW, I feel this was the trap with 10- he was such a romantic doctor that he had a lot of "complications"(I'm looking at you Martha) but would they have loved 1,2 6 or 7?  YMMV but I feel this is a much better setup for a true romantic interest than for a companion.

After Amy 's long backstory I felt that Moffat felt he had to give Clara an equally interesting origin story and, personally I thought it was incomplete.  She hadn't known the doctor long and not much of her character had been established.  And then  all of a sudden she jumps into the doctor's time stream??  I had a bit of a tough time with that.  

[MiseryIndex]

I have a silly question about river and thr inverse timelines

We know who her parents are and when she is conceived. Also when she turns into river during let's kill Hitler. But she seems to know right away what the situation is and has met an older version of thr doctor. Which we are about to see. But I'd she didn't look like river until just then and time is inverse how did she have memory of other doctors. And if so wouldn't she not look like river when she did?

[Llywela]

I guess I am a bit more pro-River than Clara.  I have had to watch Clara's episodes many times in order to warm to her, whereas River I liked right off.  And, for me, it is all right for the doctor's wife to revisit his past- how else is she supposed to have photos of all of his faces etc- as opposed to a companion who has conveniently lived through all of his regenerations -via the Night of the Doctor while still relatively unknown.  I would expect The Doctor's Wife to meet all of him incarnations- otherwise how is she supposed to know she loves "the doctor" as opposed to just having a thing for 11?  And BYW, I feel this was the trap with 10- he was such a romantic doctor that he had a lot of "complications"(I'm looking at you Martha) but would they have loved 1,2 6 or 7?  YMMV but I feel this is a much better setup for a true romantic interest than for a companion.

After Amy 's long backstory I felt that Moffat felt he had to give Clara an equally interesting origin story and, personally I thought it was incomplete.  She hadn't known the doctor long and not much of her character had been established.  And then  all of a sudden she jumps into the doctor's time stream??  I had a bit of a tough time with that.  

River isn't supposed to have photos of all his faces. There is no 'supposed to' about it. And she doesn't need to meet all his past incarnations to love who he is now - just like I don't need to go back in time to meet my boyfriend as he was in the past. You fall in love with someone for who they are when you know them, you don't have to have known them all their lives for that! No companion needs to know every version of the Doctor to be genuinely attached to the Doctor they are with, I'm not sure why anyone would think that they do - why does it matter whether or not the Tenth Doctor's companions would have got on with earlier Doctors? All that matters is that they have a strong relationship with the Doctor they are with. So no, I don't agree that the Doctor's wife either needs or has any right to go back in time and meet all his incarnations before he knew her, and then wipe his memory of those encounters, in order to 'prove' that she loves him - the very idea of her deliberately wiping his memory of her over and over again is repugnant to me. It's a violation - and an unnecessary one, sheer self-indulgence. She can know what he used to look like by seeing pictures of his former self, which the TARDIS can provide, just like I can know what my boyfriend looked like as a child by asking his dad to show me old family photos.

 

I agree, though, about Clara - that instead of just writing her as a person, Moffat seemed to feel a kind of competetive urge to make her more interesting and 'epic' than any other companion, and so rather clumsily grafted a complex story onto her instead of just letting her build and grow organically.

[penguinnj]

 

We know who her parents are and when she is conceived. Also when she turns into river during let's kill Hitler. But she seems to know right away what the situation is and has met an older version of thr doctor. Which we are about to see. But I'd she didn't look like river until just then and time is inverse how did she have memory of other doctors. And if so wouldn't she not look like river when she did?

Please anyone jump in and correct me if I am wrong.  Plus the writing isn't always completely consistent with the whole inverse timeline thing.

Young Melody is conditioned by the Silence to kill the doctor- so they must have told her a bit about him and what he looked like.  She knows her parents will meet him, so after she regenerate into Mels she hangs out with them and learns more about the doctor- seeing Amy's drawings and listening to her stories.  But she still has not met him.  The first time she meets him is in the cornfield.  Then she regenerate into River Song- only she doesn't know all the things she does as River yet- fight the Silence, resist being put in the spacesuit, becoming an archaeologist, and of course falling in love with the doctor.  The Doctor, Amy, and Rory know all this because they have met her later in her personal time stream.  This is why they can get away with her saying the first time she met the doctor he knew all about her.  Presumably following her stint in the hospital and archaeological training she uses her vortex manipulator to have her own adventures which include meeting early doctors.

I really hope that helps!  And whenever something really doesn't make sense just say time/wimey

Edited September 7, 2015 by penguinnj

[penguinnj]

 

No companion needs to know every version of the Doctor to be genuinely attached to the Doctor they are with, I'm not sure why anyone would think that they do - why does it matter whether or not the Tenth Doctor's companions would have got on with earlier Doctors? All that matters is that they have a strong relationship with the Doctor they are with.

I agree with this, which is why I didn't think they needed that setup for Clara.  But I would argue that River- as Moffet writes her- is supposed to be different.

I feel that the underpinnings of this come from the many debates I have seen by Whovians who seem to agree that a companion or person in the doctor's life (The Brigadier etc) have a stronger relationship with the doctor if they see him regenerate.  As Vestra says "They see the mask slip" and arguably have a deeper more personal and more informed idea of who he is.  Particularly in NuWho this is supposed to mean something very special.  Taken to its logical conclusion, River visiting points on the doctors personal timeline give her the best idea of who he is.   Plus she is written as more than a little obsessed with him.  YMMV if you consider that cute or creepy.  She is written as the love of his life- second only to the Tardis- and again YMMV but it is OK for me that she would want to know him more than anyone else.  This sets her apart from the other companions- and Moffat clearly wants that.  The memory wiping I excuse as timey/wimey- I'm sure the writers could come up with a reason this HAS to happen or the universe explodes or something.  But this really hinges on if you consider this canon.  It is a Doctor Who production so I would lump it with the audios and the books.  But it is a hoot- Matt and Alex do the voices and I enjoyed playing it.  Just like I will enjoy seeing the Doctor- Capaldi- doing the voice in the new Lego game.

[elle]

She is written as the love of his life- second only to the Tardis- and again YMMV but it is OK for me that she would want to know him more than anyone else.  This sets her apart from the other companions- and Moffat clearly wants that.

In the Who according to Moffat, yes,  River is "the one".  In the Russell T. Davis era, Rose was "the one",  so much so he gave her a spare-Doctor.

 

Then there is the question of who was Susan's parents, was the Doctor really her grandfather?  And what about Romana and Four?

 

I do like the character of River, and I love the chemistry between Kingston and Smith.  This video game is just another example of what I do not like about the expansion of the characters post show.

 

Young Melody is conditioned by the Silence to kill the doctor- so they must have told her a bit about him and what he looked like.  She knows her parents will meet him, so after she regenerate into Mels she hangs out with them and learns more about the doctor- seeing Amy's drawings and listening to her stories.

What I could never figure out was how the young girl we saw regenerate in 1969 USA then becomes Amy's best friend and classmate.   There had to have been another regeneration in between for Mels to be a year within Amy's age, who was born in 1989.  Maybe that was when and how Mels set up moving across the pond and being adopted by someone in the same town as the Ponds.

Edited September 7, 2015 by elle

[call me ishmael]

You know, one of the things about River that has always bugged me is that we are TOLD that she is the love of his life but i never actually saw it. Compare how upset he was when Amy went back in time or how happy he was when he "met" the Tardis (i know she is number 1 but still) or even with Rose with his interactions with River. MS and AK have great comedic timing together but i never bought the emotional connection. It seemed to performative.