S05.E15: King Shark vs. Gorilla Grodd

[Trini]

Quote

When Gorilla Grodd (voiced by David Sobolov) attacks Central City, Barry and Team Flash find themselves teaming up with an unexpected ally to defeat - King Shark (voiced by David Hayter). However, when they hit a snag, they bring in Dr. Tanya Lamden (guest star Zibby Allen) to try to reach the man behind the shark, Shay Lamden (guest star Dan Payne).

Stefan Pleszczynski directed the episode written by Eric Wallace & Lauren Certo.

Airdate: 3/5/2019.

[Trini]

Not mentioned in the description, but Joe (Jesse L. Martin) is back in this episode, and he has a subplot with Iris.

[scarynikki12]

Episode threads are for episode discussion.  They are not for comic discussion, spoilers, previews, or convincing posters that their opinions are wrong.  We have threads for comic and spoiler discussions.  If you wish to reference comics, previews, or spoilers, that's allowed but they must all be tagged as spoilers and they cannot move discussion from the episode itself.  Posts that fail to use the spoiler tag will be hidden and repeat offenders will be warned.

[bettername2come]

I always love Lyla on The Flash. I think they use her really well. She's a cooperative ally, a reasonable authority figure, has mostly forgiven Barry for the whole Sara/JJ thing, but not 100% and she's still going to say something about it. 

Oh, Barry. You can't unmetify people without asking. Y'all had a rule. Love that Caitlin and Cisco called him on that. The fact that they put it in what they called a "silver bullet" kind of hurts their argument that they never had any intent to use it as a weapon. 

JOE!!!!!! At first, I though he was just going to be on Cecile's phone in the picture and then he was really there! Iris and Joe bonding! Also, I love that he said he "went there to heal." Ha. It's funny cause it's true. I loved that long braid they had Iris's hair in. Classic and practical for work and boxing. I don't like that they had them separated from the Star Labs crew, but it was nice to see the trio working together.

"Don't you know you shouldn't interrupt people while they're brooding? I'm trying to get my Oliver Queen on here."

I knew this episode had Gorilla Grodd and yet was still surprised when he showed up. Nice twist, even if it was only a surprise to the characters.

I really liked King Shark as a human. And his story line reminded me of Ronnie's in season one, and that's not a bad thing. But it just occurred to me how weird it is that a shark growls. 

[BeautifulFlower]

Meh

King Shark's part were kind of boring. The whole love thing with Tanya was so unnecessary.

I liked the fight though

Iris/Joe scenes oh how I miss thee. I really missed these two. I'm glad Joe was there for Iris.

I didn't like Barry using the cure without consent, but it was unfair for him to be scolded. Why? Because Cisco and Caitlin were all for it just a couple of episodes. Hell, Cisco created the cure for that reason. Barry told them at the end of 5x12 he wanted to use the cure on Cicada. The next episode, they were all for it. Now, they come out saying how they didn't want the cure used as a weapon? What? All y'all agreed the cure would be used on Cicada. Didn't just in this episode, they said they had something to inject him with it? The argument was stupid and pointless

[Jediknight]

The Shape of Water came to The Flash.

Grodd vs King Shark was everything I was hoping for, and more.  They didn't relegate it to 90 seconds, and actually had a kick ass fight.  We need a rematch next season, or maybe 2 times next season.

King Shark's actor is better than Chris Klein, he should have been Cicada.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Jediknight

[mxc90]

Not one "thank you" from Cisco to Barry!  Next time King Shark has Cisco in that position, Barry should pass the shark some "hot sauce", wish Cisco well, and run away.

They had to throw in another dig at Oliver! Terrible.

Only thing missing from Sherloque's love connection was him saying "we'll be back in two and two".

Caitlin tells Barry and Cisco King Shark is approaching and they reply they can't see him. At that time they never looked down in the water. Their view was in the air. Poor direction.

Good to see Joe back. He looked refreshed and with more energy!

When Nora is not the focus she is not terrible.

Nice plan to ask Cicada for his permission! How fast can they ask the question as he is trying to kill them?

Is King Shark/Shay wearing stretchy jeans?

Edited March 6, 2019 by mxc90

[ruby24]

So now we're at the point where the main couple of a show has NO scenes together. Unbelievable.

[cambridgeguy]

They did bring up a valid point about the cure in this episode - almost no one is going to volunteer to take it.  Most people won't want to give up their powers unless they've been turned into a giant shark-man, walking nuclear bomb, etc. 

So Iris was understandably freaked because Cicada knows where her office is.  Punching a heavy bag a few times doesn't change that fact, so what the hell?  If you're going back there at least set up some precautions.  Still good to have Joe back though, although given how overprotective he's been in the past I'm not sure I buy him being so blase about what happened in the time loop.

Grodd and King Shark were both more interesting than Cicada.  I hope Grodd comes back soon.

Edited March 6, 2019 by cambridgeguy

[quarks]

On the one hand, this episode just pointed out that Flash does have more interesting, not to mention lethal, villains than Cicada, which just reminded me of this season's big problem with its Big Bad.

On the other hand, this episode brought back Jesse Martin, always a plus.

[Lady Calypso]

Barry definitely deserved to be called out on using the cure against King Shark/Shay without his permission. However Cisco was a bit hypocritical in that he was ready to use the cure against metas and I swear they had already discussed using the cure against Cicada. Also, Barry DID use the cure to save Cisco's life. Was Cisco ready to die by King Shark? I guess I got flashbacks to season 3 Cisco, where he was a sourpuss against Barry all season and I hated that Cisco. So yes, Caitlin/Cisco have a point, but it definitely felt harsher than I thought it should have been. It's hard to be on Cisco and Caitlin's side completely when they were willing up until this episode to use the cure....well, at least with Cisco. I know Caitlin was more concerned that her buddy Killer Frost would be taken out, but that's less about her wanting everyone to have a choice and more about her not wanting to be cured. 

Again, still agree with calling Barry out. Not thrilled with how it played out.

Grodd vs King Shark was great. Actually, King Shark and Shay were very well done. I even liked Tanya and thought her and Shay were kind of cute, even if it's definitely a bit weird to watch when he's in shark form. 

Iris and Joe get a good subplot. Welcome back, Joe! Obviously, punching something a few times wouldn't actually cure her fear, but I kind of get the point was more to get past that fear. This subplot should have been the one during her future death arc in season 3. 

Nora didn't really have much to do, which was nice. I needed a break from her. It would be nice if she took a whole episode break like Hartley Sawyer. 

[SimoneS]

I enjoyed this episode. Great to have Joe back and supporting Iris. I wish there was some acknowledgement that she is right to be scared of Cicada since he knows where her office is. So Joe was in Tibet with Jenna. I repeat, WTH. Do these writers not know that the Tibet is occupied by China? At least, Wally is a speedster, but to take a baby there?

The King Shark/Grodd was so good and lived up to all the hype.The CGI for King Shark and Grodd is so good, but Grodd slamming Barry and Nora through that cardboard wall was really badly done.

The guy who plays King Shark is really hot, but I didn't think that romance with Tanya and Sherloque sticking his nose in was necessary, especially he was going to be re-sharked. Yes, that is a word! 

I wasn't surprised that Barry used the cure without King Shark's permission. I don't think that he ever intended to ask for permission and Cisco and Caitlin come off as idiots insisting that he does. I couldn't believe that Barry got suck into their delusion and actually came up with the idea to ask Cicada if he wants to take the cure.

It is ridiculous that these people who locked up meta criminals in the pipeline without any authority to do so are now worried about getting consent for the cure.

Because it can't be said enough, Barry's new suit is horrific. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by SimoneS

[BeautifulFlower]

35 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I enjoyed this episode. Great to have Joe back and supporting Iris. I wish there was some acknowledgement that she is right to be scared of Cicada since he knows where her office is. So Joe was in Tibet with Jenna. I repeat, WTH. Do these writers not know that the Tibet is occupied by China? At least, Wally is a speedster, but to take a baby there?

I wasn't surprised that Barry used the cure without King Shark's permission. I don't think that he ever intended to ask for permission and Cisco and Caitlin come off as idiots insisting that he does. I couldn't believe that Barry got suck into their delusion and actually came up with the idea to ask Cicada if he wants to take the cure.

It is ridiculous that these people who locked up meta criminals in the pipeline without any authority to do are now worried about getting consent for the cure.

I'm still trying to figure out why Cecile would willingly be away from her daughter. Her infant daughter.

Cisco and Caitlin took a complete 180 this episode. I don't know where they got off being upset over Barry not having permission. Just episodes ago, they agreed to use the cure as a weapon against Cicada.

[quarks]

52 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

So Joe was in Tibet with Jenna. I repeat, WTH. Do these writers not know that the Tibet is occupied by China? At least, Wally is a speedster, but to take a baby there?

Yes, Tibet is occupied by China, but also, it's a major and growing tourist destination. Llasa alone has about 20 luxury hotels, some managed/licensed by chains like Sheraton, Intercontinental and Shanghri-La, along with more moderate hotels like a Holiday Inn Express.

I wouldn't wander around Tibet wearing a sweatshirt featuring a U.S. flag, and Tibetan monks have reported that the Chinese government restricts their travel and/or refuses to issue them passports, and yes, U.S. citizens do need a visa/permit to travel in the area, and may not be authorized to visit certain sections. But for people who are not Tibetan monks protesting the current Chinese government, it's not the danger zone you're painting it as.  Given the regular metahuman attacks Central City gets on a weekly basis, with only a brief summer hiatus, the baby is probably safer in Tibet, as long as the kid doesn't suffer too much from altitude sickness.

All that said, I seriously doubt that the writers put all that much thought into this other than "Oh, right. Tibet. That's a place on a map, right?"

[Lantern7]

Wait, so how did ARGUS get a hold of Grodd? I don't pay good enough attention . . . the last thing I remember about him was Mallus siccing him on Barack Obama during his college days, growling, "Make America Grodd again!" Also, Ray Palmer shouted, "Run, Barry, run!!!" Good times.

I'm not blaming Barry that much for "curing" Shark the first time. Shark looked like he was going to chomp on Cisco. It's a questionable decision, but it's not that questionable. Now . . . "Lets ask Cicada if he wants to be normal"? Wow. "Sure, Flash. I'll just take the cure and watch my daughter slowly die from an accident you and that girl caused. Hey, I'll stop wheezing, though. Is that what you really wanted? Because i want you dead no matter what."

Of course, the human would volunterily go back to being an oversized man-shark because Barry and Nora couldn't get the job done. On the bright side, we had a pretty sweet fight. And apparently, holding a shark upside-down will put it to sleep.

Hey, Joe! He apparently went to Tibet (English translation: "The Cornfield") to chill out with Wally. That's . . . nice. Sorry, we had a giant man-shark from another universe fight a hyper-intelligent gorilla with telepathic powers. That's hard to overshadow.

[KirkB]

I've been waiting to see Grodd vs King Shark ever since KS was introduced.

Thank you, Flash.  :)

Welcome back, Joe. We missed you.

I liked Barry's new suit...until I saw it in the bright sunlight and now I can't unsee some of the odder details.

[Trini]

Yay!! Joe is back! So nice to see the West home again too.

So... Wally is never coming back, is he? I hope Keiynan does well with whatever else he pursues; but I still think it's a shame he isn't part of the show anymore.

Yeah, Joe hanging out across the world with a newborn is ridiculous. The writers wanted to kill two (offscreen) birds with one stone. But at least they acknowledged that Jenna exists? Maybe we'll see that toddler some day.

Glad that we got a bunch of Joe and Iris. The show has always slacked with father-daughter scenes for them, so this was good. And it made sense that there were still some repercussions from Iris' confrontation with Cicada; and we got to hear her feelings and get support from Joe. Punching a bag might not solve everything, but it's cool that they wrote in Candice's boxing skills!

Shallow note: loved Iris' braid! Let's do that more often, styling team.

I think that was Cisco messaging Iris at the end?

And yeah, Nora wasn't needed for this episode. I guess they didn't want her to miss the big fight.

[Chyromaniac]

That was like watching the Universal Sudios tour kick its own @$$- more please.

[Trini]

Onto the A-plot:

I know it was just to bring in King Shark, but I highly doubt that the Team wouldn't have been able to find a metahuman volunteer. There's got to be at least one repentant meta-criminal in Iron Heights that would be willing to take it to shorten their sentence, or be put in a regular prison (or whatever).

Sherloque was also unnecessary (and way too nosy!), but he's unnecessary in general.

Yeah, someone got some ideas from The Shape of Water.

I don't know why Lyla keeps working with Team STAR Labs; there's always trouble when they get access to ARGUS stuff! But at least Cisco gave her some tech in return, so not a total loss. It was cool to see Lyla again, and she had more scenes than I thought she would, so that was good.

I don't think a love story with King Shark/Shay was necessary, but I did appreciate his little redemption arc since they were going to have him be human for a time and help take down Grodd.

Shay and the Hulk apparently buy their amazing, elastic pants at the same place!

Well, duh; the cure shouldn't be forced on anyone... even though Barry's been talking about weaponizing it for a while. It's a good thing they want to give Cicada a choice, however, I'm pretty sure that's not going to work out for them if they think he'll take it willingly. (But does Cicada really have powers, or is it just from the shard that's still in his chest?) I just hope they have a plan B is all. And again it needs to be said that he's not so powerful that it takes the team a whole season to catch him.

Okay, so Armen & co. stepped up their game! Grodd vs. King Shark was better than Grodd vs. Solovar in Season 3. Before I watched, I was kind of rooting for Grodd to win. But it's okay how it turned out. I do hope we get another Grodd episode next season; and by that time he should be more powerful.

Nitpick: Once again, Barry's only as fast as the plot wants him to be - went he first knocked down Grodd, there was no reason for him to be so slow to grab the mind-enhancer-thingy.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Trini

[Brinny]

JOE! YAY! 

I did not realize the extent to which I missed Jesse L. Martin until I saw him on the screen again. I hope he's all healed up, because Joe West brings so much to this show. 

And as nice as it would have been to have a Joe/Barry scene, it was really great to have an episode with just him and Iris as the B storyline. It does, sadly, sound like they probably aren't bringing Wally back, which is a shame. I honestly don't think he ever needed to be a regular character, but I'd like for him to guest every now and then. 

2 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Wait, so how did ARGUS get a hold of Grodd? I don't pay good enough attention . . . the last thing I remember about him was Mallus siccing him on Barack Obama during his college days, growling, "Make America Grodd again!" Also, Ray Palmer shouted, "Run, Barry, run!!!" Good times.

As someone who doesn't watch Legends, this whole paragraph is a TRIP. 

I also got a kick out of Nora lamenting how many things the Flash museum got wrong. Maybe someone needs to have a chat with Mr. Miles?

On a purely shallow note, did the show get new hair and makeup? Everyone looked really ...polished? Especially DP and CP. (Forgive me, it's late. Hopefully someone else who shares my opinion can be more articulate and elaborate.)

[BkWurm1]

5 hours ago, SimoneS said:

The guy who plays King Shark is really hot, but I didn't think that romance with Tanya and Sherloque sticking his nose in was necessary, especially he was going to be re-sharked. Yes, that is a word! 

I wasn't surprised that Barry used the cure without King Shark's permission. I don't think that he ever intended to ask for permission and Cisco and Caitlin come off as idiots insisting that he does. I couldn't believe that Barry got suck into their delusion and actually came up with the idea to ask Cicada if he wants to take the cure.

It is ridiculous that these people who locked up meta criminals in the pipeline without any authority to do so are now worried about getting consent for the cure.

Because it can't be said enough, Barry's new suit is horrific. 

I have to wonder if there will be some bigger reason why the show spent so much time on Killer Shark's love life.  They seemed to be hammering home that connection to doppelgangers and if they have that special thing that makes you fall in love with them, then...it's ok to replace them with each other???

My first thought was who was going to die and get replaced by a doppelganger (other than Wells)  But I suppose they might have just done it to hype up a reason to be sad about Killer Shark's sacrifice.  (Though personally I think the heroes could have come up with a plan that didn't involve condemning the man to being a shark man the rest of his life and no, I'm not really sure he did deserve to pay for his actions after becoming a monster where his humanity was at the mercy of sharky instincts)

Also, I think the show is taking the need to get consent before administering the cure too far.  Leave the metas not causing any harm or even the ones that only are doing non violent things (or even merely non lethal) but if you are dealing with someone that is doing something that would justify in the moment the use of lethal force, then surely using the cure is not a worse option.  The lives and welfare of the rest of the city have to be more important than serial killer's agreement to be returned to his normal human state after being transformed against his will in the first place.  

Basically, of course, the show is hampering itself to make stopping Cicada harder than it needs to be but their logic is really weak.  I'm sure the people that Cicada is going to murder because Team Flash made up an arbitrary moral line will be fine with dying so they can avoid the hard questions.    

Edited March 6, 2019 by BkWurm1

[thuganomics85]

King Shark: the hero that Central City needed for this episode, at least!  And he even got his on The Shape of Water thing going for him, which I'm sure just has put a few more weird ideas in Guillermo Del Toro's head, if he watches this show!

Glad that Joe is back and Jesse L. Martin is looking better.  Too bad that he and Iris were mainly separated from everyone else, but hopefully they're just simply easing him back in, and both of them will be more involved with the rest of the ensemble going forward.

Even if Wally got tired of Tibet/Keiynan Lonsdale decides he wants back into the D.C. Universe, why would he want to come back to all of this silly Cicada stuff, when he could go back to the madness that is flying around with the Legends?!

Barry breaks the rules and "cures" King Shark against his will, leading to Cisco and Caitlin getting all pissy.  Even though if he really looked at every unethical thing Team Flash has done at some point or another, the list would probably stretch all the way to Star City...

The Gorilla Grodd vs. King Shark smackdown lived up to the hype, but like with most of these shows, I'm just wondering if the next few episodes are going to be really scaled down after they blew the budget here.  Time for a bottle or recap-heavy episode!

[SimoneS]

I have to say that I had no problem with Iris and Joe having their own story. I don't think that this has ever happened, the closest might have been when Francine appeared in season two and even then Iris only got a couple of minutes in those scenes. It was good to see Joe being there for Iris. This is likely a one time thing that won't ever happen again.

Know what I didn't get about last night. Why was there no discussion about testing the cure on Cisco. Just a couple episodes ago, he was whining about not wanting to have powers for the rest of his life and wanting to have a normal life. I expected him to immediately volunteer. Guess Helbing forgot this along with Caitlin and Cisco agreeing to use the cure on Cicada. 

A.R.G.U.S. finding out about the cure should have been a much bigger deal. Lyla should have demanded the cure, making Team Flash aware of the real danger to all metas not just the criminals instead of bickering amongst themselves, then they could have an episode where A.R.G.U.S. breaks into Star Labs to steal the cure. Too often this show misses the obvious drama. 

15 hours ago, Trini said:

Yeah, someone got some ideas from The Shape of Water.

My mind can't stop going there. Is she going to have sex with King Shark? After all, isn't he wearing pants because... Honestly, the thought of having sex with King Shark is just gross, but different strokes and all that.

15 hours ago, Trini said:

Shay and the Hulk apparently buy their amazing, elastic pants at the same place!

Bwah. 

18 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I'm still trying to figure out why Cecile would willingly be away from her daughter. Her infant daughter.

IKR. Cecile let Joe take their infant daughter to another country and TIBET of all place for weeks? I can't get over how ridiculous the whole thing is. This is exactly why they should have never given Joe and Cecile a baby. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by SimoneS

[RedVitC]

On the one hand asking Cicada is very sweet, and very team Flash. On the other hand it's basically telling the big bad what your plan is, lol. I wonder though if they will use this to end Cicada's arc. Maybe he decides to use the cure and then the rest of the season focuses on the future

Loved the Joe and Iris scene. Seeing Iris boxing was awesome and I hope it's something they keep in the show (again, it was referenced in season 1). In general, I think it's a good idea if all the members of the team start learning some self defense. I actually think that is the benefit non meta team members have in the fight against Cicada. Since they never had powers in the first place the stakes don't change and their mind is not so fixated on solving everything/fighting with powers.

I will say that I don't agree that this is a confidence issue, or at least it's not just a confidence issue. Not going to the office seems like a smart idea. The fact that Cicada knows who Iris is should be taken a lot more serious? It's not a question of if he'll attack again, but when. It shouldn't be too hard to find out where she lives, who she associates with. He knows she works with team flash and looking at who Iris interacts with it shouldn't be too hard to find out the identities of the rest of team Flash. But it was nice to have an entire subplot focused on what Iris was feeling.

I thought the plot with king shark was surprisingly well done. I found myself really sad for Tanya and Shay at the end. I did go 'that's westallens spot!' when they had their balcony chat 😂

I wish they'd have Joe and Iris at star labs at the end to at least have some connection between the A and B plot (plus it would mean at least one scene with both Barry and Iris in it, lol). I'm really enjoying this season, but I do miss my solo Barry and Iris scenes (they're still there, and I've loved the ones we've got, but there's less of them)

[SimoneS]

54 minutes ago, RedVitC said:

I'm really enjoying this season, but I do miss my solo Barry and Iris scenes (they're still there, and I've loved the ones we've got, but there's less of them)

I blame Nora's presence. She is either in Barry and Iris' scenes or they are talking about her or getting the time Barry should be with Iris. 

[adora721]

9 hours ago, Trini said:

Well, duh; the cure shouldn't be forced on anyone... even though Barry's been talking about weaponizing it for a while. It's a good thing they want to give Cicada a choice, however, I'm pretty sure that's not going to work out for them if they think he'll take it willingly.

Team Flash has lost its collective mind! 😡

It's really Cisco and Caitlin who first thought of weaponizing the cure against Cicada, not Barry. Out of nowhere, Cait accuses Cisco of using it against someone's will, which he never implied. Then Cait, who took HR Wells to his murder against his will and has yet to face justice for this, decides to pretend she has morals about forcing the cure on a serial killer and other criminals.  

Cicada's murderous mindset isn't a result of having meta powers. He was mentally messed up before he got those abilities. Unlike Shay, who was a good person before King Shark's primitive instincts drove him to kill, Orlin isn't being driven to murder by his powers. These are not comparable situations. Plus, Orlin wants to kill all metas; curing him of his powers doesn't erase his desire to get rid of metas.

The writers need to be fired immediately for this poor continunity and lack of logic; even for a show with fantastical elements, this stretches credulity.

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

My mind can't stop going there. Is she going to have sex with King Shark? After all, isn't he wearing pants because... Honestly, the thought of having sex with King Shark is just gross, but different strokes and all that.

What happens when Tanya wants to take King Shark to eat, I mean, to meet her parents and friends?😂

Edited March 6, 2019 by adora721

[adora721]

1 hour ago, RedVitC said:

On the one hand asking Cicada is very sweet, and very team Flash. On the other hand it's basically telling the big bad what your plan is, lol. I wonder though if they will use this to end Cicada's arc. Maybe he decides to use the cure and then the rest of the season focuses on the future

Having this cure should mean every new meta will be easily defeated from now on, which should make a for a short season. I don't imagine Todd thought this through for the longevity of the show when he and the writers came up with the cure idea.

[adora721]

11 hours ago, Trini said:

I think that was Cisco messaging Iris at the end?

It was Joe and Cisco messaging Iris on her phone. You can see Joe's picture on the text message about the banana. 

ETA: The OTF fandom must have loved this episode. Better enjoy it while they can, I guess.

Edited March 6, 2019 by adora721

[adora721]

9 hours ago, Trini said:

(But does Cicada really have powers, or is it just from the shard that's still in his chest?)

I think Cicada has powers is a meta because he's infected with dark matter that gives him control over the meta tech dagger. I think of the dagger like Thor's Mjölnir  (hammer). Thor has powers without it and he has added power with the hammer like flight. I'm not sure Cicada has other powers except his control over the dagger.

Edited March 6, 2019 by adora721

[Brinny]

7 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I have to wonder if there will be some bigger reason why the show spent so much time on Killer Shark's love life.  They seemed to be hammering home that connection to doppelgangers and if they have that special thing that makes you fall in love with them, then...it's ok to replace them with each other???

My first thought was who was going to die and get replaced by a doppelganger (other than Wells)  But I suppose they might have just done it to hype up a reason to be sad about Killer Shark's sacrifice.  (Though personally I think the heroes could have come up with a plan that didn't involve condemning the man to being a shark man the rest of his life and no, I'm not really sure he did deserve to pay for his actions after becoming a monster where his humanity was at the mercy of sharky instincts)

Also, I think the show is taking the need to get consent before administering the cure too far.  Leave the metas not causing any harm or even the ones that only are doing non violent things (or even merely non lethal) but if you are dealing with someone that is doing something that would justify in the moment the use of lethal force, then surely using the cure is not a worse option.  The lives and welfare of the rest of the city have to be more important than serial killer's agreement to be returned to his normal human state after being transformed against his will in the first place.  

Basically, of course, the show is hampering itself to make stopping Cicada harder than it needs to be but their logic is really weak.  I'm sure the people that Cicada is going to murder because Team Flash made up an arbitrary moral line will be fine with dying so they can avoid the hard questions.    

That would be some interesting foreshadowing for sure. I mean, it wouldn't be the first time the show has kind of played with that logic. What with all the iterations of Harrison Wells that they keep slotting in to take the place of the previous ones. Which, speaking of, I'm guessing because they introduced Sherloque's ex-wife's Earth-1 doppelgänger, this actually might have something to do with that awful storyline? (They teased that she's a meta, right? I wasn't exactly paying attention.) But you could be right and maybe they're hinting at something else? Pencil me in for cautious, but curious. 

Completely agree with the whole curing Cicada thing. Dude is legit gutting metas in the streets. So far, they don't have any other way to stop him. (I'll still admit to being confused as to how curing Cicada stops his dagger from working anyway, since we've seen meta tech work without the operator being a meta themselves, like in the case of Spin. OR if the dagger even counts as meta tech, because I guess the show is saying that curing Cicada's gaping chest wound somehow strips the dagger of its dampening powers? Whatever.) Anyway, my point was, yes, if there is absolutely NO WAY to stop this guy's murdering rampage, maybe you don't need to pause and have a chat with him first? 

2 hours ago, RedVitC said:

On the one hand asking Cicada is very sweet, and very team Flash. On the other hand it's basically telling the big bad what your plan is, lol. I wonder though if they will use this to end Cicada's arc. Maybe he decides to use the cure and then the rest of the season focuses on the future

Loved the Joe and Iris scene. Seeing Iris boxing was awesome and I hope it's something they keep in the show (again, it was referenced in season 1). In general, I think it's a good idea if all the members of the team start learning some self defense. I actually think that is the benefit non meta team members have in the fight against Cicada. Since they never had powers in the first place the stakes don't change and their mind is not so fixated on solving everything/fighting with powers.

I will say that I don't agree that this is a confidence issue, or at least it's not just a confidence issue. Not going to the office seems like a smart idea. The fact that Cicada knows who Iris is should be taken a lot more serious? It's not a question of if he'll attack again, but when. It shouldn't be too hard to find out where she lives, who she associates with. He knows she works with team flash and looking at who Iris interacts with it shouldn't be too hard to find out the identities of the rest of team Flash. But it was nice to have an entire subplot focused on what Iris was feeling.

I thought the plot with king shark was surprisingly well done. I found myself really sad for Tanya and Shay at the end. I did go 'that's westallens spot!' when they had their balcony chat 😂

I wish they'd have Joe and Iris at star labs at the end to at least have some connection between the A and B plot (plus it would mean at least one scene with both Barry and Iris in it, lol). I'm really enjoying this season, but I do miss my solo Barry and Iris scenes (they're still there, and I've loved the ones we've got, but there's less of them)

I loved that Joe and Iris got an episode/plot for themselves too (and one where Iris got to be emotionally vulnerable, without undermining how strong she is), but I'm also missing Barry and Iris solo scenes. I honestly think the last real one we got with them interacting on a level that was more than just the two of them being alone in a room together, might have been the crossover when they were on the balcony? And Barry wasn't even Barry then. I mean. Technically, yes. But not really. 

(I have more feelings about this, but if need to elaborate I'll mosey on over the Speed Dating thread.)

[Jediknight]

14 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Wait, so how did ARGUS get a hold of Grodd? I don't pay good enough attention . . . the last thing I remember about him was Mallus siccing him on Barack Obama during his college days, growling, "Make America Grodd again!" Also, Ray Palmer shouted, "Run, Barry, run!!!" Good times.

Zod, I love Legends of Tomorrow.  Don't forget, at one point he mind controlled Sara, and Isaac Newton knocked her out with a frying pan.

[tennisgurl]

Fun episode, but we couldn't even get one scene of Barry and Iris together? Not even a phone call to tell Iris what she missed with King Shark? That being said, I am so happy that Joe is back, and that he and Iris got a plot together! Its been ages its feels like. Also "I went there to heal" Heh, I see you show, I see what you did there. 

The King Shark vs. Gorilla Grodd fight was awesome as promised, and most of the CGI looked really good! Gorilla Grodd is always a fun bad guy to have around, he brings so much ridiculous comic book energy to any show he shows up in, and the guy who played King Shark was really good. He added a lot of pathos to what is kind of a weird plot, what with being a sharp man getting his Shape of Water on with the scientist who was in love with his Earth 1 counterpart. I felt sad for him being stuck as a shark man forever, I kind of wish that guy had been cast as Cicada instead, it seems like he would do a better job at being both tragic with his niece, and scary as Cicada. 

The meta cure stuff has always been kind of weirdly used, especially as a possible weapon. Its kind of a decent ethical issue, but it seems like with Cicada, it doesent really apply? His dagger gives him power, not himself. And its very sweet and very team flash to try to help him and give him a chance to get back to normal, but the guy is clearly a monster, and there is only so much you can really do. I can also get why Barry used the cure when Cisco was about to get eaten, and why Cisco and Caitlin were upset, maybe more about the precedent than the actual thing. I mean, with the cure, beyond Cicada, I think its questionable to use on people who dont want it, but its a good option for people like King Shark, who was a good person before he was a shark man and basically only a danger because of his shark instincts, or the guy from last season who emitted radiation without his control, and didnt want to hurt anyone and couldn't really function in the world due to his power. Ideally, this is probably why this should exist, not as a punishment or weapon. 

Also, I guess Cisco is done with wanting to not have his powers anymore? I mean, that was always stupid, but we sure have moved past that fast!

Iris looked so cute with her braid! 

12 hours ago, Brinny said:

As someone who doesn't watch Legends, this whole paragraph is a TRIP. 

Thats Legends in a nutshell! Its is wild! Almost every episode sounds like a mad libs game!

[Jediknight]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

Thats Legends in a nutshell! Its is wild! Almost every episode sounds like a mad libs game!

And despite being completely batshit, the show balances everything perfectly, and does a great job with emotion and character development.

[KirkB]

I had a thought. Would the cure work on Grodd? He IS a meta after all. It would solve a lot of their problems. And would they have to worry about an animal, even an intelligent one, giving consent?

[JapMo]

When I saw Grodd in the title, I thought...uh-oh.  There has not been one single episode having anything to do with that ape that I've liked.  And last night's episode stayed true to form.  Sooooo incredibly stupid.  Iris and Joe were wasted.  And the dumbest scene in the history of the show, and there have been many candidates that tried to claim the prize through the years, but this one takes the cake.  Sharknado unselfishly gives up a chance to return to human form.  Because he owed everyone for being really mean to them.  Whatever. 

[jay741982]

18 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Meh

King Shark's part were kind of boring. The whole love thing with Tanya was so unnecessary.

I liked the fight though

Iris/Joe scenes oh how I miss thee. I really missed these two. I'm glad Joe was there for Iris.

I didn't like Barry using the cure without consent, but it was unfair for him to be scolded. Why? Because Cisco and Caitlin were all for it just a couple of episodes. Hell, Cisco created the cure for that reason. Barry told them at the end of 5x12 he wanted to use the cure on Cicada. The next episode, they were all for it. Now, they come out saying how they didn't want the cure used as a weapon? What? All y'all agreed the cure would be used on Cicada. Didn't just in this episode, they said they had something to inject him with it? The argument was stupid and pointless

That part was so dumb. I was with Barry when he said "oh so I should've let him eat you?"

[adora721]

2 hours ago, KirkB said:

I had a thought. Would the cure work on Grodd? He IS a meta after all. It would solve a lot of their problems. And would they have to worry about an animal, even an intelligent one, giving consent?

Grodd being sentient means they would require his consent to take the cure; doesn't matter that he's an animal. Technically, humans are animals, too, but we're also sentient.

[VCRTracking]

20 hours ago, Trini said:

Yeah, someone got some ideas from The Shape of Water.

Right? It didn't hit me until the end when he was in the tank and she was outside! Up until then the plotline felt like The Love Boat or Fantasy Island with Sherloque as Mr. Rourke!

Edited March 7, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Trini]

6 hours ago, Brinny said:

I loved that Joe and Iris got an episode/plot for themselves too (and one where Iris got to be emotionally vulnerable, without undermining how strong she is), but I'm also missing Barry and Iris solo scenes. I honestly think the last real one we got with them interacting on a level that was more than just the two of them being alone in a room together, might have been the crossover when they were on the balcony? And Barry wasn't even Barry then. I mean. Technically, yes. But not really. 

(I have more feelings about this, but if need to elaborate I'll mosey on over the Speed Dating thread.)

Answering in Speed Dating.

[Trini]

15 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I have to wonder if there will be some bigger reason why the show spent so much time on Killer Shark's love life.  They seemed to be hammering home that connection to doppelgangers and if they have that special thing that makes you fall in love with them, then...it's ok to replace them with each other???

My first thought was who was going to die and get replaced by a doppelganger (other than Wells)  But I suppose they might have just done it to hype up a reason to be sad about Killer Shark's sacrifice.  (Though personally I think the heroes could have come up with a plan that didn't involve condemning the man to being a shark man the rest of his life and no, I'm not really sure he did deserve to pay for his actions after becoming a monster where his humanity was at the mercy of sharky instincts)

I think it was mainly to humanize (heh) him and make him more sympathetic for his redemption. It's King Shark, there's only so deep this show is going to go with him.

And I changed my mind about Sherloque being useless -- if anyone had to give that ridiculous "it's totally cool to fall in love with the half-shark doppelganger of your dead husband" speech, it might as well be the character I'm the least invested in.

[Trini]

16 hours ago, SimoneS said:

A.R.G.U.S. finding out about the cure should have been a much bigger deal. Lyla should have demanded the cure, making Team Flash aware of the real danger to all metas not just the criminals instead of bickering amongst themselves, then they could have an episode where A.R.G.U.S. breaks into Star Labs to steal the cure. Too often this show misses the obvious drama. 

They seem to only want to use ARGUS for twice-a-year plot purposes. ARGUS could be a good antagonist for the team if they really wanted to do it. Maybe a future season?

Edited March 7, 2019 by Trini

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, if ARGUS, who are getting sketchier by the day, get their hands on the meta cure, that could lead to some serious problems down the line. Maybe it wouldn’t by Lyla, but it would certainly be someone.

[mrspidey]

On 3/6/2019 at 7:31 AM, Brinny said:

As someone who doesn't watch Legends, this whole paragraph is a TRIP. 

And that wasn't even the trppiest part of that episode. It also featured John Noble playing himself playing Denethor. 

[SimoneS]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

They seem to only want to use ARGUS for twice-a-year plot purposes. ARGUS could be a good antagonist for the team if they really wanted to do it. Maybe a future season?

I really liked Team Flash butting heads with General Iling in season one. It helped that it was Clancy Brown, but still, Team Flash in conflict with A.R.G.U.S. or the military makes sense and it is organic story as they would be working at cross purposes to accomplish the same goal, keeping the public safe from criminal metas.

Edited March 7, 2019 by SimoneS

[Spaceman Spiff]

22 hours ago, SimoneS said:

A.R.G.U.S. finding out about the cure should have been a much bigger deal. Lyla should have demanded the cure,

I guess I don't understand this. Who is Lyla or ARGUS for that matter, that you think they can demand anything? Even the government can't just mosey into a private facility, point and say "You made that...great, we want it and are taking it" Meta Cure,  or say Cancer Cure, no one can just come in and claim it as their own.

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

I guess I don't understand this. Who is Lyla or ARGUS for that matter, that you think they can demand anything? Even the government can't just mosey into a private facility, point and say "You made that...great, we want it and are taking it" Meta Cure,  or say Cancer Cure, no one can just come in and claim it as their own.

ARGUS is more than willing to bend the rules when it suits their purposes depending on who is in charge - Amanda Waller would absolutely claim that metacure as her own without missing a step.  If an evil meta is rampaging through a city do you shoot them with the cure or do you ask permission first?  ARGUS would shoot first.  They tend to be an end justify the means type.

[legaleagle53]

On 3/5/2019 at 9:05 PM, Lantern7 said:

Of course, the human would voluntarily go back to being an oversized man-shark because Barry and Nora couldn't get the job done. On the bright side, we had a pretty sweet fight. And apparently, holding a shark upside-down will put it to sleep.

Am I missing something?  Since Shay knows about the cure (which is apparently reversible at least in his case), what's stopping him from taking it again, spending most of his time as a human, and only becoming King Shark when necessary?  Why is he permanently stuck in King Shark form following the reversal of the cure?

[Trini]

3 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Why is he permanently stuck in King Shark form following the reversal of the cure?

Because Plot said so.

[Cekrypton1]

Here's a question I love to ask: Why is a shark man wearing pants with a belt?? Cannot ARGUS or STAR get him some swim trunks?
 

[Trini]

Ha! the Encore VFX put their logo in the shot with the daddy-daughter double lightning toss: