S08.E07: Episode 7

[Tardislass]

31 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

If the whispers around Poplar tell the girls where to go to "get rid of it," then whispers of young girls dying for "female" reasons, should have got back to the two old biddies.  I wont buy that they didn't know.  Some of the young women, would have returned to the scene of the operation, looking for help, when the horrible pain began.

I just can't excuse the filthiness of the room.  Cleanliness has been considered a good thing for centuries and germs as invisible causes of disease was discovered in 1864.  Formal education is not the only way to pass information, women who worked with Florence Nightingale would have learned about proper sick rooms and if you're going to practice medicine in your kitchen you could at least keep your eyes and ears open about the subject.

She makes me angry. I didn't like her bawdy humor and I thought asking her granddaughter to lance her boils when medical care was free wasn't  very nice either.  I hope she goes to prison for a bit.  The living conditions would be an improvement.

I take this as partly living where she has and her life and partly she felt she was helping these girls/women. Val got out of that life, went to school and saw a different life. Her gran who lived in the East End and had no schooling after 12 probably thought it was more normal. In the grandma's mind, she probably did feel she helping as these women probably couldn't pay for a doctor to perform abortions. My mom was a nurse back in the early sixties and the only doctors performing abortions charged enormous fees-because of the illegality. My father was a young city chaplin back in that time period and he attended several deaths where the woman died because of a illegal abortion. The show is trying to show that women will get abortions regardless, but making them illegal just causes pain and harm for them and others.

Shouldn't Timothy be in college now? 

11 hours ago, marceline said:

ETA: Can anyone explain the expressions used during the bingo game? (5 and 6? Val and Gran say "Was she worth it?")

I'm wondering if it's a British thing, as I went with my grandma to Bingo and never heard about that.

[purist]

12 hours ago, marceline said:

ETA: Can anyone explain the expressions used during the bingo game? (5 and 6? Val and Gran say "Was she worth it?")

There's a list of British bingo expressions here. It says that 'Was she worth it?' was associated with the number 76: 'This refers to the pre-decimal price of a marriage licence in Britain, 7/6d. The players shout back "Every Penny".'

[AZChristian]

32 minutes ago, purist said:

There's a list of British bingo expressions here. It says that 'Was she worth it?' was associated with the number 76: 'This refers to the pre-decimal price of a marriage licence in Britain, 7/6d. The players shout back "Every Penny".'

Those repetitive "insider" sayings are why I could never get into regular bingo sessions.  They have bingo every Monday night in our community - it's a great money maker for our HOA.  We don't go.  

We did go to bingo once on a cruise ship.  The next day, we walked past the lounge where they were setting up for the next bingo session.  I just looked at Mr. AZC and said, "Let's just pitch $20 into the room and leave here and go do something fun."  It's just not our thing.

[libgirl2]

13 hours ago, Calvada said:

I liked Sr. Frances dealing with the delivery on her own, and especially liked her taking control and getting rid of all those people when the new mom was in such emotional and physical distress.  

For someone who is so meek, it was nice to see her take charge! 

[Popples]

1 hour ago, purist said:

There's a list of British bingo expressions here. It says that 'Was she worth it?' was associated with the number 76: 'This refers to the pre-decimal price of a marriage licence in Britain, 7/6d. The players shout back "Every Penny".'

Thanks for this! An episode of Endeavour had a subplot involving a bingo hall and I remember them saying "Harold's (Macmillan) Den, number 10" and "Tickety-boo, 62" and it was confusing for me since I've never played.

As soon as Dr. Turner said that the type of infection in Val's grandmother's boils was dangerous to women who had just delivered, the penny dropped for me. I really appreciated that they kept both sides of the argument and that just outlawing abortions isn't saving babies, it's potentially killing women because a desperate one would turn to a dangerous alternative if there isn't a safer way.

I'm happy for Sister Frances that her first solo delivery only had a minor hiccup that she was able to handle by herself.

[libgirl2]

7 minutes ago, Popples said:

Thanks for this! An episode of Endeavour had a subplot involving a bingo hall and I remember them saying "Harold's (Macmillan) Den, number 10" and "Tickety-boo, 62" and it was confusing for me since I've never played.

As soon as Dr. Turner said that the type of infection in Val's grandmother's boils was dangerous to women who had just delivered, the penny dropped for me. I really appreciated that they kept both sides of the argument and that just outlawing abortions isn't saving babies, it's potentially killing women because a desperate one would turn to a dangerous alternative if there isn't a safer way.

I'm happy for Sister Frances that her first solo delivery only had a minor hiccup that she was able to handle by herself.

Oh wow, I didn't even catch that! 

[OnceSane]

5 hours ago, Tardislass said:

Shouldn't Timothy be in college now?

He was 7 or 8 when the show started, I think.  So he's still high school age, but Tim will probably start talking about testing for university next season.

2 hours ago, Popples said:

As soon as Dr. Turner said that the type of infection in Val's grandmother's boils was dangerous to women who had just delivered, the penny dropped for me.

It was Sister Julienne, but yeah, "oh shit" moment for me.  But I still didn't believe it was her, I thought it was a red herring.

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, Popples said:

I really appreciated that they kept both sides of the argument and that just outlawing abortions isn't saving babies, it's potentially killing women because a desperate one would turn to a dangerous alternative if there isn't a safer way.

I'm pro-choice myself and I'm  aware of the studies that show that there are just as many abortions where abortion is illegal, it's just more dangerous, etc.  What I'm not seeing is this "other side of the argument,"  people keep mentioning.   I think the show has been very obviously pro-choice and I'm kind of surprised at that, it seems like at least one of the nuns would believe it should remain illegal and be seen to express her reasons for that.

[jschoolgirl]

15 hours ago, natyxg said:

I get the feeling that she knows nothing about the women she might have harmed. After all, those complications happened after they went home and she wouldn't know the women or be in contact with them after they left.

But Poplar is a small community, so that doesn't seem realistic. Things get around, fast.

[natyxg]

5 minutes ago, jschoolgirl said:

But Poplar is a small community, so that doesn't seem realistic. Things get around, fast.

Is she the only abortionist around? Because otherwise she could hear that some women had problems, but she could've convinced herself that they weren't one of her clients. The woman who called Val said that she had never had a complication during an abortion before, I think. I doubt she would've carried on doing it if she knew that she had literally gotten women killed.

[jschoolgirl]

You'd think Val might have scolded Gran a bit over the condition of the flat that time she went and was given money from the oven.

[caitmcg]

34 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I think the show has been very obviously pro-choice and I'm kind of surprised at that, it seems like at least one of the nuns would believe it should remain illegal and be seen to express her reasons for that.

It's been subtle, but I do think they've made it clear where Sr. Julienne stands. Not that she won't offer compassionate care to a woman who's having complications resulting from an illegal abortion (which we have seen), because she is empathetic and it is her job, but given she expressed opposition in this episode to having the Women's Advisory (a chief mission of which is dispensing contraception) in Poplar, she would pretty clearly object to legal abortion.

As far as the show's attitude, I wonder if it has to do in part with being British, and the fact that it is not currently as fraught a social issue there as it is in the US. 

[tennisgurl]

I know I wanted more of a Valerie plot, but this was just so brutal! I should have known when they introduced Gran and her backstory that this was where it was going, but I just didnt put the two stories together until they walked into that nasty, dank looking operating room. God, I wouldn't have made a sandwich in that room, let alone do a major operation in. Poor Valerie, you can tell she was just so heartbroken, she could hardly even talk, thank God Trixie was with her to take charge, Val was in no shape for that right away. I do think that Gram thinks that she is doing the right thing for these women, and without much education she had no idea how much damage she is doing, but she does need to be stopped, no matter how much it hurts Valerie to turn her in. Its such an awful situation, I cant even imagine, especially with Gram telling Valerie how she has forgotten her roots, when that is clearly not true, and this will just make her feel worse. 

I felt really bad for the new mother who got the clap, and I even felt a bit bad for her husband, and I hope that therapy can help them. I did enjoy Dr. Turners role in the episode with him, and his reactions to the husband and his increasingly weak excuses, until he really explained his issue. Especially when the husband was like "well what guy hasn't had the clap before?" and Dr. Turner assured him that that was VERY much not the case, and when he said that he didnt mean to go to the prostitute again, and Dr. T just had this expression that screamed "Really? Did you trip?!?" before he went back into professional mode. 

The 60s dresses the girls are wearing are just giving me life! I especially loved Trixies bingo outfit, so chic! 

[kathe5133]

I was spoiled about Gran!  I don't even know how.  I think when I read it I thought it had already aired.  Wisely, when the abortion victims started showing up and no one else mentioned, I realized I was spoiled and didn't share. 

[kirklandia]

32 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Gran and her backstory

That was a very grim episode, but I couldn't stop myself from chucking when I read this!

[Tardislass]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I'm pro-choice myself and I'm  aware of the studies that show that there are just as many abortions where abortion is illegal, it's just more dangerous, etc.  What I'm not seeing is this "other side of the argument,"  people keep mentioning.   I think the show has been very obviously pro-choice and I'm kind of surprised at that, it seems like at least one of the nuns would believe it should remain illegal and be seen to express her reasons for that.

Sister Julien didn't approve of the sexual health clinic last week and none have every done abortions. However, as nuns and nurses they've made an oath to help those in pain which they have. Believe abortion is wrong doesn't mean that the woman should be jailed. The shows approach seems to be showing how life was for women before birth control and legal abortion and making the viewer not take the gains for granted.

There was a spy show called Spooks in the 2000s, one episode dealt with an abortion doctor being blown up in her car. The ring leader was a couple from the US and pretty much made the point that the Americans are much more militant when it comes to anti-abortion than the Brits. The same people who scream murder at any woman wanting a legal abortion are also the same people who rant about funding for government welfare programs for mom and babies. Babies seem to be sacred until they are born. 

[libgirl2]

29 minutes ago, Tardislass said:

Sister Julien didn't approve of the sexual health clinic last week and none have every done abortions. However, as nuns and nurses they've made an oath to help those in pain which they have. Believe abortion is wrong doesn't mean that the woman should be jailed. The shows approach seems to be showing how life was for women before birth control and legal abortion and making the viewer not take the gains for granted.

There was a spy show called Spooks in the 2000s, one episode dealt with an abortion doctor being blown up in her car. The ring leader was a couple from the US and pretty much made the point that the Americans are much more militant when it comes to anti-abortion than the Brits. The same people who scream murder at any woman wanting a legal abortion are also the same people who rant about funding for government welfare programs for mom and babies. Babies seem to be sacred until they are born. 

Not wanting to go off topic too much, but I agree. Many of my friends who are very anti-abortion don't really do much for children in need. No one fosters, or is involved in any charities taking care of kids.... many are anti-immigrant blaming the parents for the whole mess. Strangely or not, its my more liberal pro-choice friends who do more in the community to help families and children. 

In a perfect world where people actually did what they say, we wouldn't need abortion. Birth control would be free, unwanted children would be cared for, mothers supported before and after the birth....... wont' ever happen. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by libgirl2

[debraran]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

Not wanting to go off topic too much, but I agree. Many of my friends who are very anti-abortion don't really do much for children in need. No one fosters, or is involved in any charities taking care of kids.... many are anti-immigrant blaming the parents for the whole mess. Strangely or not, its my more liberal pro-choice friends who do more in the community to help families and children. 

In a perfect world where people actually did what they say, we wouldn't need abortion. Birth control would be free, unwanted children would be cared for, mothers supported before and after the birth....... wont' ever happen. 

I wrote a woman who is head of a big anti-abortion group with my thoughts and she surprised me by agreeing with me in part. I said everyone takes care of the pregnant woman, clothes, baby clothes, here is a crib but a year later, 2 years later, where is the help? Where is the help with daycare or food or clothing and emotional support. Many women feel abandoned and think the whole emphasis is getting the baby born and then the rest will take care of itself.  She agreed there is much more work to do and supporters can't fault the government in helping when they wanted the mom to not abort. No easy answers but keeping the door open is needed for both sides.

[Tardislass]

Getting back on topic, I really think Call the Midwife or the BBC should make a fashion-line. Since everything old is new again some of the outfits the ladies wear-minus gloves are so beautiful. Fashion line! I wonder if Mother Mildred will get Fred up in the middle of the night to drive her to the bus to go back to the convent. I did LOL at that scene while dramatic makes you wonder how she will get to where she's going.

I'm calling it now that May will stay with the Turner's in a dramatic last minute reversal for the series finale. They've milked the storyline all season to have the little girl just leave. I am amazed that the show can keep those three little kids quiet for the length of a scene-usually kids that age chat up a storm.

[Kohola3]

10 hours ago, Tardislass said:

I'm calling it now that May will stay with the Turner's in a dramatic last minute reversal for the series finale.

I don't know.  This isn't a program that does Happily Ever After every week so I'm not expecting it to end with May at the Turner's.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Kohola3

[Badger]

Regarding illegal abortions, Val also pointed out that there was the danger of a young woman or girl being rendered permanently unable to bear children because of it.

[Zorione]

On 5/13/2019 at 12:48 AM, Badger said:

Jennifer Worth did a critique of "Vera Drake."  According to her, the abortion method used in the film always resulted in the death of the woman.

I remember that. She was referring to the method by which soap is injected into the uterus. I was a little perplexed upon reading "invariably fatal" since, years before, I'd read Mary Lovell's biography of the Mitford sisters, which quoted Jessica Mitford's account of having undergone that form of abortion in the 1930s. Not only did she survive, but she went on to have three more children years later. So Jessica was very lucky.

[debraran]

3 hours ago, Zorione said:

I remember that. She was referring to the method by which soap is injected into the uterus. I was a little perplexed upon reading "invariably fatal" since, years before, I'd read Mary Lovell's biography of the Mitford sisters, which quoted Jessica Mitford's account of having undergone that form of abortion in the 1930s. Not only did she survive, but she went on to have three more children years later. So Jessica was very lucky.

In Revoluntionary Road, the woman talked of a syringe method and bought one her husband found. I'm not quite sure what she did with it but it was bloody. ; (

The Method mentioned on Vera Drake is discussed here by a midwife. She personally didn't think it was accurate.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2005/jan/06/health.healthandwellbeing

@Tardislass I think it's leaning that way but I hope she goes and they can visit and see she's happy. This wasn't a cruel family, just sick. They were "fostering".  But if they do that I see the way the writing is going. I love that family but they make almost everything sweet and nice. Real life has a bit more grit. ; )

Edited May 15, 2019 by debraran

[JudyObscure]

14 hours ago, Tardislass said:

The same people who scream murder at any woman wanting a legal abortion are also the same people who rant about funding for government welfare programs for mom and babies. Babies seem to be sacred until they are born. 

12 hours ago, debraran said:

I said everyone takes care of the pregnant woman, clothes, baby clothes, here is a crib but a year later, 2 years later, where is the help? Where is the help with daycare or food or clothing and emotional support. Many women feel abandoned and think the whole emphasis is getting the baby born

Well now that we've had four or five pro-choice posts, I feel compelled to play devil's advocate for the other side.

Why should the government raise certain  people's children for them?  I always vote for free child care and medical care for everyone, but I don't see these things as entitlements for some and not others. 

  Birth control may not be free for everyone, but it's very inexpensive in relation to other things like hourly wages.  If a young woman can afford a cute outfit to go clubbing she can afford fifty dollars for a packet of birth control pills, or a little more for something that lasts three years,  or the morning after pill (which can be bought for as little as $15 some places.)  There really is no reason for so many  young women to need an abortion. If we pushed as much for women to take responsibility for their own bodies, as we did for their right to abortion, there would be very little need.

I'm pro-choice because I don't think the government should be making the decision for anyone, but neither do I think the government owes a lifetime of financial and emotional support to a woman who has chosen to have and keep a baby. For the mothers to turn around and say to the pro-lifers, "Well you talked me into it now you have to raise it for me,"  is the height immaturity.  It was ultimately her choice to have unprotected sex, her choice to forgo abortion, her choice to keep the baby rather than adopt it out. Now it's her responsibility to raise it.

 Over population is ruining the climate and the planet.  Why should the government encourage it by paying for it?

The argument that pro-lifers owe these women anything at all doesn't hold water.  Whether or not abortion is legal is a matter of law.  You can be against the death penalty without being willing to take over the financial care of the lifetime prisoner.  You can be against separating immigrant families at the border without people asking you why you haven't taken any families into your home.  Pro-lifers think abortion should be illegal because to them, killing a fetus is the same as killing a five year old.  I believe killing a five year-old should be illegal and I can believe  that without adopting a five year old. As it happens, I don't think a fetus is a "life" in that sense, but I respect those who do.

The show has given us this heavy handed pro-choice message, showing us how awful back street abortion was and how much better it is for the women now that it's legal, but we still haven't heard whether Dr Turner or Sister Julianne would feel about deliberately killing a fetus.  No matter what life was like at home for the mother or how much stigma the single girl might endure for keeping the baby, it might still be murdering an innocent baby in their eyes.  I remember Sister Julienne watching over the thalidomide baby as it died and I think she might feel the same way about that aborted fetus. But we haven't seen that or heard her say it, it's been all about sympathy for  the mothers.

I just don't like way the show has pushed one agenda, and I feel like I'm being preached at.

[Kohola3]

While I agree with most of what you've said, I think we need to back up a step here and look at these episodes from the view of the 1960's.

Birth control was not as readily accessible then as it is now.  We was in this episode the struggle to get any kind of services into the area due to funding so education on the topic was also more difficult to get.  I went to high school in the 60's and sex education consisted of a 5 minute talk by our biology teacher.  Women were often not free to make choices in terms of birth control while married - the husband decided. 

The girl that got deliberately pregnant was a different story.  Victims of rape or incest, women carrying children with known genetic defects, or even married women who just could deal with another child for various reasons but were not allowed to use birth control (ad marital rape was legal) were a whole other story.  Pro-lifers don't differentiate or look at circumstances, they harass and embarrass everyone for their own agenda.  Those are the women who deserve help if forced into carrying a child to term.

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Well now that we've had four or five pro-choice posts, I feel compelled to play devil's advocate for the other side.

Why should the government raise certain  people's children for them?  I always vote for free child care and medical care for everyone, but I don't see these things as entitlements for some and not others. 

 Over population is ruining the climate and the planet.  Why should the government encourage it by paying for it?

The argument that pro-lifers owe these women anything at all doesn't hold water.  Whether or not abortion is legal is a matter of law.  You can be against the death penalty without being willing to take over the financial care of the lifetime prisoner.  You can be against separating immigrant families at the border without people asking you why you haven't taken any families into your home.  Pro-lifers think abortion should be illegal because to them, killing a fetus is the same as killing a five year old.  I believe killing a five year-old should be illegal and I can believe  that without adopting a five year old. As it happens, I don't think a fetus is a "life" in that sense, but I respect those who do.

The show has given us this heavy handed pro-choice message, showing us how awful back street abortion was and how much better it is for the women now that it's legal, but we still haven't heard whether Dr Turner or Sister Julianne would feel about deliberately killing a fetus.  No matter what life was like at home for the mother or how much stigma the single girl might endure for keeping the baby, it might still be murdering an innocent baby in their eyes.  I remember Sister Julienne watching over the thalidomide baby as it died and I think she might feel the same way about that aborted fetus. But we haven't seen that or heard her say it, it's been all about sympathy for  the mothers.

I just don't like way the show has pushed one agenda, and I feel like I'm being preached at.

Because the children are innocent victims and don't have any way to help themselves if their parents won't or can't?  If denying aid to people who aren't doing right by their kids would force them into doing better, that would be one thing, but it doesn't.  Some people, through no fault of their own, or sometimes all their fault, have kids and cannot provide for them.  Doesn't matter where you fall on the issue of abortion; believing that little kids deserve food and clothing and shelter no matter what circumstances they're born into means that, as a society, someone is going to have to step in when the parents aren't doing their job.  There are those who feel that the mark of a true civilized society is found in how well the most vulnerable members are treated.  Babies both before and after birth are in that category.

It is also quite possible to be morally opposed to abortion but also oppose the wholesale carnage that comes with illegalizing it.  Dr Turner and Sister Julianne can feel that the fetus is an innocent who has the right to life while still feeling sorrow for the woman who made the choice to have an illegal and unsafe procedure to end her pregnancy.  They can feel like there are two victims here.  I know because I do.  They can also take a look at the large amount of data on the subject that demonstrates that, when abortion is safe and legal, women will actually have fewer of them than when it is not legal or safe.

I don't know how the show could present the situation any more evenhandedly based on the history of illegal abortion in Britain as well as the fact that in just a couple of years, the procedure is going to be legalized there.  We haven't gotten any discussion of whether or not it should be legal.  I expect we'll hear some of that in upcoming seasons as laws are proposed.  At that point, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the nuns and/or midwives and docs don't express different opinions on legalized termination.

Edited May 15, 2019 by doodlebug

[3 is enough]

Valerie's grandmother seemed proud of the fact that she *only* charged 7 pounds for her services.  Seven pounds in 1964 spent like 140 pounds today.  I imagine that was still quite a large sum for the women of Poplar.  Not exactly affordable.  

[Suzn]

5 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

...Why should the government raise certain  people's children for them?  I always vote for free child care and medical care for everyone, but I don't see these things as entitlements for some and not others....

I agree with a lot of what you said, but on this issue there is a great deal more involved than "raising" people's children.  Even if we don't care about the welfare of children who are not wanted and who may be neglected or abused, we as a society have to deal with them.  They are not hermetically sealed in a world that that doesn't interact and affect the rest of us.  

I find abortion abhorrent and consider it as the lesser of evil in cases like rape and incest, however I want it to be absolutely legal and accessible because the alternative is so much worse.

5 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

...Birth control may not be free for everyone, but it's very inexpensive in relation to other things like hourly wages.  If a young woman can afford a cute outfit to go clubbing she can afford fifty dollars for a packet of birth control pills, or a little more for something that lasts three years,  or the morning after pill (which can be bought for as little as $15 some places.)  There really is no reason for so many  young women to need an abortion. If we pushed as much for women to take responsibility for their own bodies, as we did for their right to abortion, there would be very little need....

 ...Over population is ruining the climate and the planet.  Why should the government encourage it by paying for it?...

I completely agree with these points.

[libgirl2]

5 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

  Birth control may not be free for everyone, but it's very inexpensive in relation to other things like hourly wages.  If a young woman can afford a cute outfit to go clubbing she can afford fifty dollars for a packet of birth control pills, or a little more for something that lasts three years,  or the morning after pill (which can be bought for as little as $15 some places.)  There really is no reason for so many  young women to need an abortion. If we pushed as much for women to take responsibility for their own bodies, as we did for their right to abortion, there would be very little need.

How about the man pitching in too? Let him do without those expensive gym shoes or that video game. Maybe stay home on the weekend instead of spending money going out. Help the woman pay for BC...... No, it almost always falls on the woman. I will say it yet again, if men were the ones who got pregnant and the woman could just skip off into the sunset. 

Edited May 15, 2019 by libgirl2

[Suzn]

53 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

How about the man pitching in too? Let him do without those expensive gym shoes or that video game. Maybe stay home on the weekend instead of spending money going out. Help the woman pay for BC...... No, it almost always falls on the woman. I will say it yet again, if men were the ones who got pregnant and the woman could just skip off into the sunset. 

You're not wrong.  I focus on the women simply because they have the most to lose and the most ability to do something about it.  We can't depend on enough men doing the right thing.

[libgirl2]

4 minutes ago, Suzn said:

You're not wrong.  I focus on the women simply because they have the most to lose and the most ability to do something about it.  We can't depend on enough men doing the right thing.

I understand......but that is part of the problem. Men aren't held as accountable as the woman is. 

Edited May 15, 2019 by libgirl2

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, Suzn said:

I agree with a lot of what you said, but on this issue there is a great deal more involved than "raising" people's children.  Even if we don't care about the welfare of children who are not wanted and who may be neglected or abused, we as a society have to deal with them.  They are not hermetically sealed in a world that that doesn't interact and affect the rest of us.  

I agree that we need to take care of the children and I was just answering the bit I quoted about the mother feeling abandoned after the baby was born and where was her support, etc.  We do already have WIC coupons, food stamps, subsidized housing, Aid to Dependent Children and starter programs for children. As I said I'm in favor of free day care and medical care for everyone.  It's just the sense of entitlement from some mothers that makes me ask those women why her childcare expenses all should come from others.

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

No, it almost always falls on the woman. I will say it yet again, if men were the ones who got pregnant and the woman could just skip off into the sunset. 

But men aren't the ones who get pregnant and they aren't the ones who carry the child, decide whether or not to abort, or spend at least 18 year raising the child. Men also aren't the ones with a dozen good methods of birth control to chose from.  Men can't go out in the cold light of a day and get something that will save them from getting anyone pregnant for three years. They can't go out the sober morning after and take a pill. All they have is permanent sterility and condoms that are not highly effective, and have to be used at the last minute when they might be drunk or high.

All reasons why any woman who relies on the man to take charge of birth control is a fool.

[libgirl2]

5 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I agree that we need to take care of the children and I was just answering the bit I quoted about the mother feeling abandoned after the baby was born and where was her support, etc.  We do already have WIC coupons, food stamps, subsidized housing, Aid to Dependent Children and starter programs for children. As I said I'm in favor of free day care and medical care for everyone.  It's just the sense of entitlement from some mothers that makes me ask those women why her childcare expenses all should come from others.

But men aren't the ones who get pregnant and they aren't the ones who carry the child, decide whether or not to abort, or spend at least 18 year raising the child. Men also aren't the ones with a dozen good methods of birth control to chose from.  Men can't go out in the cold light of a day and get something that will save them from getting anyone pregnant for three years. They can't go out the sober morning after and take a pill. All they have is permanent sterility and condoms that are not highly effective, and have to be used at the last minute when they might be drunk or high.

All reasons why any woman who relies on the man to take charge of birth control is a fool.

I agree with that last sentence! Don't count on them!

And I think the reason there are so many BC options for women is because men can't get pregnant! 

Edited May 15, 2019 by libgirl2

[Suzn]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

I understand......but that is part of the problem. Men aren't held as accountable as the woman is. 

No they're not, but it would take a generation of boys raised differently to be men with a different attitude to turn the tide.  Historically and culturally, our reality is that not many men consider this their issue, their problem.

[Suzn]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

...All reasons why any woman who relies on the man to take charge of birth control is a fool....

Exactly.

[libgirl2]

4 minutes ago, Suzn said:

No they're not, but it would take a generation of boys raised differently to be men with a different attitude to turn the tide.  Historically and culturally, our reality is that not many men consider this their issue, their problem.

Very true. Its sad. 

[3 is enough]

My two cents worth:

No one has mentioned that many pro-life activists are also anti-birth control.  They want abortion abolished, yet are opposed to decent sex education in schools, and only want to teach abstinence.  Yeah, THAT works!  Just tell teenagers NOT to have sex and they will listen.  They oppose medical insurance coverage for birth control.  They want to make it harder for people to have access to birth control.  Common sense would tell us that if you really want to reduce the number of abortions, knowledge and access to birth control are the best tools, because people are not going to stop having sex.  But evidently common sense is less common than one would hope.

Bringing it back to the show, Trixie was passionate about providing women with access to birth control so they wouldn't have to go to back alley butchers like Valerie's grandmother out of desperation.

Edited May 15, 2019 by 3 is enough

[Suzn]

6 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

My two cents worth:

No one has mentioned that many pro-life activists are also anti-birth control.  They want abortion abolished, yet are opposed to decent sex education in schools, and only want to teach abstinence.  Yeah, THAT works!  Just tell teenagers NOT to have sex and they will listen.  They oppose medical insurance coverage for birth control.  They want to make it harder for people to have access to birth control.  Common sense would tell us that if you really want to reduce the number of abortions ,knowledge and access to birth control are the best tools, because people are not going to stop having sex.  But evidently common sense is less common than one would hope.

Bringing it back to the show, Trixie was passionate about providing women with access to birth control so they wouldn't have to go to back alley butchers like Valerie's grandmother out of desperation.

Thanks for this - I thought about that and failed to mention it.  Their agenda is not about solving the problem; I think it is more about controlling women.

[Kohola3]

10 minutes ago, Suzn said:

Their agenda is not about solving the problem; I think it is more about controlling women.

The Handmaid's Tale, 2019 version.

[libgirl2]

25 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

My two cents worth:

No one has mentioned that many pro-life activists are also anti-birth control.  They want abortion abolished, yet are opposed to decent sex education in schools, and only want to teach abstinence.  Yeah, THAT works!  Just tell teenagers NOT to have sex and they will listen.  They oppose medical insurance coverage for birth control.  They want to make it harder for people to have access to birth control.  Common sense would tell us that if you really want to reduce the number of abortions ,knowledge and access to birth control are the best tools, because people are not going to stop having sex.  But evidently common sense is less common than one would hope.

Bringing it back to the show, Trixie was passionate about providing women with access to birth control so they wouldn't have to go to back alley butchers like Valerie's grandmother out of desperation.

Very well said. There is a faction in this country who are 100% abstinence and don't want any form of education on BC. The real world doesn't work that way. Its all about keeping women second class citizens and not much different from countries we feel we have to "liberate" and bring democracy to. 

 I wonder if the show, after this whole abortion arc, will realistically address BC. I would be curious to see how the nuns react to it as opposed to the nurses. 

Interestingly I know a very very religious ex-classmate of mine, who's daughter had an oops baby. I don't think abstinence was terribly effective in that case. Granted she is thrilled with her grand child and I am happy for them all.  Not everyone has that kind of support. 

Edited May 15, 2019 by libgirl2

[OtterMommy]

Let's move the conversation back to the topic.  Discussion about birth control and other issues without reference to the show can continue in the Small Talk topic.

Thanks!

[willowk]

19 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

I don't know.  This isn't a program that does Happily Ever After every week so I'm not expecting it to end with May at the Turner's.

If May does end up having to go, I expect we will see some turmoil in the Turner family afterwards. Tim said Angela won't understand, maybe she will run away to find her sister May.

[Tardislass]

2 hours ago, willowk said:

If May does end up having to go, I expect we will see some turmoil in the Turner family afterwards. Tim said Angela won't understand, maybe she will run away to find her sister May.

If Val's story wasn't so tragic I'd agree with you but I see no happy ending for Val's gran or aunt. I see the May story as happy so I'm thinking adoptive family will have a tragedy or something. Or I could be wrong and May will be off with nary a fuss and a montage of a sad Turner family at the end.

[Calvada]

9 hours ago, 3 is enough said:

Valerie's grandmother seemed proud of the fact that she *only* charged 7 pounds for her services.  Seven pounds in 1964 spent like 140 pounds today.  I imagine that was still quite a large sum for the women of Poplar.  Not exactly affordable.  

That's why I mentioned upthread how I thought it was terrible that she burned the girl's money instead of giving it back to her.  When I think what that young girl probably had to do to get that large sum of money, burning it was criminal.  

I wonder if there will be an impact on Val's job due to her relatives' criminal behavior.  You would think that there would be some in the community, and some in authority, who might wonder if the granddaughter/niece who is a nurse was involved in any way or knew what was happening.

[Sarah 103]

On 5/12/2019 at 9:02 PM, JustDucky said:

Did anybody else notice Val's Grandma was wearing mirroring shades of Val's uniform?  That spoke volumes...

I noticed it too!

On 5/12/2019 at 9:54 PM, ombelico said:

When Dr. Turner showed up at the prostitute's door and said "I'm here in a professional capacity," my heart sank thinking "Have you been there in some other capacity?" I swear if they turned Dr. Turner into a philanderer frequenting hookers I would never be able to watch the show again. I was very relieved when that didn't turn out to be the case.

On 5/12/2019 at 10:16 PM, caitmcg said:

He was responding to her saying (to paraphrase) that she wasn't expecting to get a house call, so it really seemed he was responding to her tone suggesting he might be there for other than medical purposes because it was out of the ordinary for her to see him at her home.

Still, it's not totally out of the question. There was that period when Dr. Turner was a widower. That being said, I cannot picture Dr. Turner paying a hooker. 

On 5/13/2019 at 7:38 PM, Tardislass said:

Finally, I want Trixie's wardrobe. The leather hat, the dresses, the scarves, it's so mod!

On 5/14/2019 at 2:44 PM, tennisgurl said:

The 60s dresses the girls are wearing are just giving me life! I especially loved Trixies bingo outfit, so chic! 

On 5/14/2019 at 9:10 PM, Tardislass said:

Getting back on topic, I really think Call the Midwife or the BBC should make a fashion-line. Since everything old is new again some of the outfits the ladies wear-minus gloves are so beautiful. Fashion line!

I want Trixie's wardrobe. I wouldn't look good in it, but I want it. I wouldn't mind raiding Val's closet too, but I think I might have the same problem. Lucille's clothing might fit me though. 

Banana Republic did a Mad Mad inspired line of clothing years ago, so a Call the Midwife line of clothing isn't totally crazy.

On 5/14/2019 at 8:03 AM, Tardislass said:

Shouldn't Timothy be in college now? 

On 5/14/2019 at 1:34 PM, OnceSane said:

He was 7 or 8 when the show started, I think.  So he's still high school age, but Tim will probably start talking about testing for university next season.

Tim at university opens up some interesting possibilities, if the show goes that long. I like that Tim is a good kid who does the right thing and cares about doing well in school. All of the characters make mistakes, and I'd really like to see him make a bigger mistake than coming home late after school band practice. Maybe at college he'll do something minor league stupid. Not enough to get him arrested or expelled, just normal small time minor league trouble. Almost all of the characters have made mistakes on the show, and I think Tim's overdue for his.

1 hour ago, Calvada said:

I wonder if there will be an impact on Val's job due to her relatives' criminal behavior.  You would think that there would be some in the community, and some in authority, who might wonder if the granddaughter/niece who is a nurse was involved in any way or knew what was happening.

I don't think so when it comes to official authority. If it comes to a court of law or Val needing to give a sworn statement as a witness she can honestly say she had no idea what was going on until she entered her grandmother's flat that night. As for gossip, that's a strong possibility, but I think people would believe what Val said. 

[kirklandia]

53 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

she had no idea what was going on until she entered her grandmother's flat that night

I thought the abortions were being done in a room above a bar.  Is that where her grandmother lives?

[debraran]

6 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I noticed it too!

Still, it's not totally out of the question. There was that period when Dr. Turner was a widower. That being said, I cannot picture Dr. Turner paying a hooker. 

I want Trixie's wardrobe. I wouldn't look good in it, but I want it. I wouldn't mind raiding Val's closet too, but I think I might have the same problem. Lucille's clothing might fit me though. 

Banana Republic did a Mad Mad inspired line of clothing years ago, so a Call the Midwife line of clothing isn't totally crazy.

Tim at university opens up some interesting possibilities, if the show goes that long. I like that Tim is a good kid who does the right thing and cares about doing well in school. All of the characters make mistakes, and I'd really like to see him make a bigger mistake than coming home late after school band practice. Maybe at college he'll do something minor league stupid. Not enough to get him arrested or expelled, just normal small time minor league trouble. Almost all of the characters have made mistakes on the show, and I think Tim's overdue for his.

I don't think so when it comes to official authority. If it comes to a court of law or Val needing to give a sworn statement as a witness she can honestly say she had no idea what was going on until she entered her grandmother's flat that night. As for gossip, that's a strong possibility, but I think people would believe what Val said. 

Well, some kids are like Tim but it does make for more boring scenes. ; ) I enjoyed mostly boring children or at least on the surface.  A little snafu would be fine, and I'd love to see him follow his dad's path or something interesting. Sometimes you can be a little too protected.

I agree Val didn't know but "grueling" court as described in TV Guide sounds like they ask them many, many questions. Maybe "how could she not know" type of things, because she's in the medical field. I'm sure it will be thought provoking and sad.

[txhorns79]

I loved Trixie's Bingo outfit, even if it seemed like she was almost comically overdressed for a night of playing Bingo at the community center.  I remember also thinking Val seemed really overdressed as well. 

I felt for Val.  She looked as though she felt seriously betrayed.  She was certainly right that by involving her in the aftermath of the abortion, her grandmother put her at risk both professionally and personally.  

On 5/14/2019 at 2:25 PM, caitmcg said:

It's been subtle, but I do think they've made it clear where Sr. Julienne stands. Not that she won't offer compassionate care to a woman who's having complications resulting from an illegal abortion (which we have seen), because she is empathetic and it is her job, but given she expressed opposition in this episode to having the Women's Advisory (a chief mission of which is dispensing contraception) in Poplar, she would pretty clearly object to legal abortion.

I think Sister Julienne is incredibly empathetic to the point where it sometimes masks how she personally feels about a topic.  I can't imagine any scenario where she would personally support a woman having an abortion, except perhaps if the mother's life was in danger. 

[AZChristian]

5 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I loved Trixie's Bingo outfit, even if it seemed like she was almost comically overdressed for a night of playing Bingo at the community center.  I remember also thinking Val seemed really overdressed as well. 

Having been a teenager/young adult in that era, I thought they just looked like a couple of ladies who were hoping to attract attention at the Bingo hall.  We used to do dress up more back then . . . before mega-stars starting showing up for concerts and TV programs in scruffy clothing that I'd have been embarrassed to donate to Goodwill.

[Suzn]

48 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

Having been a teenager/young adult in that era, I thought they just looked like a couple of ladies who were hoping to attract attention at the Bingo hall.  We used to do dress up more back then . . . before mega-stars starting showing up for concerts and TV programs in scruffy clothing that I'd have been embarrassed to donate to Goodwill.

Pretty much anything was an occasion to dress up for.  I miss that.