S02.E08: Identity, Part I

[welnoc]

51 minutes ago, chaifan said:

That was my first thought, especially with the sudden change of personality.  I thought it was weird that one of the kids immediately recognized Issac in the lobby, even though all Kaylons look the same except for red/blue eyes.  Also, leaving the real Issac on the planet allows for him to be the hero that saves the day.  Absent that, or the "involuntary reprogramming", there's no route for keeping Issac on this show.

I think Isaac may have been copied onto the knob thing they stuck on his chest; they did show a close-up of it so I thought that it might be important. Then the primary altered the programming of Isaac in the droid to suit Kaylon purposes.

I'm also wondering if there's a copy of Isaac in the Orville's computer system that could help to save the day? There was an episode where he downloaded himself into the ship's systems but I can't remember which one.

[FormerMod-a1]

Based on the behavior change, and dropping the picture, I also did not believe that to be Isaac.  I assumed one of the other Kaylons (maybe Prime) downloaded his memories and was pretending to be him.  I also agree it could be reprogramming or new programming in Isaac.  I don't know how I'll feel if this is all a test or simulation though.  I guess we'll find out. 🙂

[HouseofBeck]

On 2/22/2019 at 12:57 AM, SmithW6079 said:

Ed and company were pretty stupid to announce that they had discovered the Kaylons' secret. Better to have gotten the kid, gone back to the ship, said, "Oops, we just remembered we have a space delivery to make; give us your answer later" and gotten the hell out of there.

Yes, this! Or get your ship undocked from the planet, get out of range (if you can), then send your instantly damning questions.

On 2/22/2019 at 3:29 AM, Ubiquitous said:

Wow, I was not expecting that plot tweest! Actually, I was expecting the Kaylons to tell Ed and crew that the skeletons were the remains of their ancestors, who gave up their biological bodies and transferred their minds into cyborg bodies eons ago and then declined joining the union because Ed and the crew jumped to conclusions about them. I do wonder if Isaac had been reprogrammed b/c he did seem to act differently after being reactivated.

I was starting to hope for this too, but their moment of ominous silence brought the anticipatory cringe. Unless it'll come out as a giant twist at the end.

On 2/22/2019 at 7:26 AM, benteen said:

The Orville really needs better safety protocols if a kid knows how to get off of a ship on a planet that doesn't want people snooping around.

Indeed. I was waiting for something or somebody to detect that a child was both activating exits and leaving the ship. Nope!

11 hours ago, Starchild said:

The more I think about it, the more I believe the real Isaac is still deactivated back on the Kaylon planet.

I can't wait to find out which theories pan out, they're all so interesting.

"Just give Clyde blue eyes, they'll never know the difference!"

I hope the biologicals defeat the Kaylons through logic and emotion. It's not logical to deliberately attack a planet so far away if your main purpose is first to find more room for themselves; they can AI-form any planet sitting around their quadrant. 

A dark side of me wondered if Seth is drawing a parallel between this supposed-until-proven-otherwise genocide (and plans for more) and how we're all horrified by it, and how humans have run other species into extinction...and still are. 

[rmontro]

Let's just pretend for a moment this is a simulation/test by the Kaylons.  What are they looking for?

Do they want to see if the humans are ingenious enough to defeat them (thus proving them to be worthy allies)?

Do they want to see if they react in a savage manner?  I don't see how they can do otherwise considering they're about to be exterminated.

Do they want to see how they react to pressure?  Sort of a mega Kobayashi Maru?  Seems like they could find a less extreme way of doing it.

And why would they need Earth of all places?  They like the infrastructure?  Because it's the source of delicious cakes with flowers on every corner?

[TVSpectator]

11 hours ago, jumper sage said:

Hmmmm.

Here is one reason I think it may be a simulation:  We know there are more than 3 kids on board.  We have seen the classroom. We only see Topa captured and we possibly see Marcus and Ty evade capture - but why the robots can't see a biological is quite another question......................anyways, we only saw 3 kids during the whole show.

That is a possibility I hope they don't go down. 

[Tyro49]

Maybe they will figure out how to upload Asimov's Three (a Fourth one added in later books) Laws of Robotics - I wish some real life AI researchers would try it.

Didn't think about a substitute Isaac.

Maybe the scan knocked them all out and none of this is really happening? But that would be a cop-out.

Lasers growing out of their heads - looked like curls!

Did think it odd that they would head directly to Earth, bypassing other planets, unless that's the headquarters of the Union and wiping that out would make the other planets easier to conquer.

Did think it odd that they didn't simply wipe out the whole crew - why drag them along?

Why didn't the Orville send a message to Kaylon saying they were on the way, and why?

Why aren't some crewmembers, and kids, hiding out in the access ducts, planning how to take back the ship?

Maybe the Kaylons really do see their units as interchangeable and thus have no concept of a "real" Isaac.

Imaginary AIs are only extensions of our real AI fears. Maybe Orville is trying to be more real by actually losing characters we had come to care for.

A real surprise - wish we didn't have to wait a week. 

[legaleagle53]

2 minutes ago, Tyro49 said:

Maybe they will figure out how to upload Asimov's Three (a Fourth one added in later books) Laws of Robotics - I wish some real life AI researchers would try it.

Didn't think about a substitute Isaac.

Maybe the scan knocked them all out and none of this is really happening? But that would be a cop-out.

Lasers growing out of their heads - looked like curls!

Did think it odd that they would head directly to Earth, bypassing other planets, unless that's the headquarters of the Union and wiping that out would make the other planets easier to conquer.

Did think it odd that they didn't simply wipe out the whole crew - why drag them along?

Why didn't the Orville send a message to Kaylon saying they were on the way, and why?

Why aren't some crewmembers, and kids, hiding out in the access ducts, planning how to take back the ship?

Maybe the Kaylons really do see their units as interchangeable and thus have no concept of a "real" Isaac.

Imaginary AIs are only extensions of our real AI fears. Maybe Orville is trying to be more real by actually losing characters we had come to care for.

A real surprise - wish we didn't have to wait a week. 

That's why I decided to hod off on watching Part 1 until Part 2 is available on Hulu on Friday.  That way, I don't have to agonize for a week.

[ketose]

I'm starting to worry that MacFarlane et al. may not be able to write themselves out of this one. The Borg and the Dominion essentially sent out scouting parties and they were (momentarily) defeated because of their small numbers. But Kaylons have their whole planet backing them up.

Any simulation ending is going to diminish my respect for the show. I probably wouldn't be happy about a sudden defeat of the Kaylons, but that's a pretty common scifi trope. It would be interesting if they did the whole fake command code thing with Isaac the whole time, like with Ed and the Krill earlier.

If Isaac turns out to be a spy the whole time, Mercer is going to be the new Chakotay, the commander of a crew full of spies he didn't know about.

[Danielg342]

On 2/22/2019 at 9:47 AM, rmontro said:

If not, this show is getting to be like the new Walking Dead:  First we lose Alara, now we lose Isaac.

I wouldn't like that, especially a show that has built its characters as well as this one. What's the point of rooting for any of them if you are constantly worried their next scene will be their last?

[marieYOTZ]

My thought while watching the scene where Isaac looked at Ty’s drawing and then dropped it was that he had scanned the image into his memory bank and then didn’t need the physical one anymore because he has a perfect replica of it in his mind. I was thinking that we’d get a scene in the second part where he recreates the image somehow, and Ty realizes that he DID value the picture - he just didn’t see a need to keep the “hard copy”. 

But everyone’s theory about Isaac being imitated in that scene also makes sense. I guess we’ll see! Either way, i hope the drawing gets mentioned again. My heart just broke for Ty when he was in that tree 😞

Edited February 23, 2019 by marieYOTZ
Correct verb tense

[shapeshifter]

Isaac's crash:
[Dr. Finn]: Boys, we've been waiting for the right time to tell you this
                 . . . . Isaac and I are seeing each other.
[Ty's response]:  We love Isaac.
[Marcus' response]: Mom, we just want you to be happy.
[Dr. Finn's response just before Isaac crashes (very happy)]:
                       How did I get so lucky?
                       You guys are the best kids a mom could ever ask for.

POSSIBLE REASONS FOR ISAAC CRASHING AT THAT MOMENT:

• Isaac started to have feelings that would conflict with the Kayon/Borg's objective
• Marcus's reservations indicated that Isaac's prime objective would soon be discovered
• It was just time. 
   

MOMENTS WHEN THINGS COULD HAVE TAKEN A DIFFERENT TURN:

• If it was "just time" for Isaac's decommission/crash, and if Dr. Finn hadn't interfered with John taking Isaac apart, that might have been the end of relations with the Kaylon.
• On Kaylon, if Ed and crew hadn't pleaded to have Isaac come back.
• On Kaylon, when rebooted Isaac told Dr. Finn he was not coming back, if she hadn't blurted angrily: "Why don't you just come back for a few minutes and pretend like you care?"

FORESHADOWING OF PART 1 FINAL SCENE:
Beginning of episode: Isaac, Marcus, and Ty playing a game:

• Ty challenges Marcus to top his own move, which Marcus does, at which point Isaac completes and wins the game in one move,
  to which Ty responds: "No fair. You always win."
• to which Isaac replies: "That is to be expected. My intelligence far exceeds yours."
   

POSSIBLE PART 2 FORESHADOWING:

• When Ty gives Isaac the picture:
  [Isaac]: The data I have collected the Orville has stored in my memory core.
               I will not forget you.
• Near the end of Part 1, when the Kayon/Cylons seat themselves to command the Orville:
  [Dr. Finn to Isaac]: Taught 'em everything you know, huh? 
  (maybe not quite everything, or possibly Isaac will thwart the trip to Earth or something similar)
• On the Orville, rebooted Isaac with the Finn family: 
  [Marcus]: But what if they don't join the Union? 
  [Isaac]: Remember to . . . obey your mother's commands.
              I fully expect that you will both mature into competent and productive adults.
• During Isaac's going away party, when Gordon sings the ballad, Klyden smiles fondly at Bortus.
  After the song, Bortus asks for the corner piece of cake with the flower. 
  Maybe Bortus was going to give the cake with the icing flower to Klyden
  --and maybe this can still happen.

Edited February 24, 2019 by shapeshifter
clarity

[ganesh]

I liked Ed's initial conversation on the planet because it gave us some background on the Union. So it's looks like they're still just starting out, which some of us had speculated. I like that because it's messy. The don't have a lot of knowledge of the galaxy and they're just stomping around seeing what's there. 

Was that the actor's voice actually singing? He was really good. I still here Steve Smith when I see him, so that wowed me. I thought the party was a great idea, and I was dying with Bortus asking for a corner piece so he could have a flower. Isaac's speech was perfect. 

I'm not sure if I were Ed I would have confronted them about the bodies. I would have gotten out of there fast AF. 

I did like Ed cracking, "well, Isaac chopped off Gordon's leg afterwards so mistakes on both sides." 

Whoooooo this is like the Doctor and the Autolons!

I haven't said this in years about a tv show, but I cannot wait until next week. 

6 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

I don't know how I'll feel if this is all a test or simulation though.

Oh, I didn't think of that. Kind of a letdown if it's all a test. I'd rather they learn that we're flawed but we're trying to be better and we have that in common. 

4 hours ago, Tyro49 said:

Did think it odd that they didn't simply wipe out the whole crew - why drag them along?

When Ed was captured on the Krill ship, they asked for his 'codes'. Presumably, these aren't written down or on any hard drive, so they'll need Ed to give them to Union HQ? Maybe they think they can't enter local Earth-space without them. 

[ganesh]

On 2/22/2019 at 7:47 AM, rmontro said:

Besides, how is the Union supposed to act after finding all those mass graveyards?

TBH, they put up with the Moclans because they provide valuable raw materials and processing for weapons. If the Union is going to advance as a galactic entity, they're going to have to play some realpolitik. That happened way before the Union and the Krylons opened up diplomatic relations. The Union has to deal with what the reality is now. Who is to say that the 'builders' didn't treat them like slaves and really abused them? From what we've seen, the crew treats Isaac just like one of them. They even threw him a party. It's not easy to stomach, but maybe the Union promises to not let the secret get out. 

It does seem odd to me that for a planet of sentient robots, if they're running out of resources, that they just stop making more robots. They didn't really indicate that they wanted to multiply and take over the whole galaxy. 

On 2/22/2019 at 9:57 AM, iMonrey said:

I will say, however, that if the Kaylons are this much of an unknown to humans, it seems foolish to have accepted Isaac as a crew member. It's a rather obvious suspicion he might be sent to collect intel on them to use against them.

I'd say it's naive. But, Ed pointed out, this is the nascency of the Union. They're still figuring it all out. There's been a lot of comparisons to Trek, which is totally fine, I'm not complaining, but we start Trek with the Federation being quite established. I've said before, I find more apt comparisons to Farscape. 

[ganesh]

20 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

The entire episode reminded me more of that one episode of Futurama where Fry and Leela were stuck on that robot planet. They even had a "we hate all biologicals" just like in Futurama. 

Maybe they're just coming to Earth to ask for lugnuts!

I'm not nitpicking, but I would think that there's no need to just leave the bones there. You can shoot them into the sun. If you're running out of space on your planet, why wouldn't you build underground? T

[HouseofBeck]

4 hours ago, marieYOTZ said:

My thought while watching the scene where Isaac looked at Ty’s drawing and then dropped it was that he had scanned the image into his memory bank and then didn’t need the physical one anymore because he has a perfect replica of it in his mind. I was thinking that we’d get a scene in the second part where he recreates the image somehow, and Ty realizes that he DID value the picture - he just didn’t see a need to keep the “hard copy”. 

But everyone’s theory about Isaac being imitated in that scene also makes sense. I guess we’ll see! Either way, i hope the drawing gets mentioned again. My heart just broke for Ty when he was in that tree 😞

It looked like he had scanned it into his memory to me, too. It didn't occur to me that the dropping of it could represent a breadcrumb clue, as another poster said, but now I wonder. Our Issac would by now have enough evolved AI sense to know that a perceived discard would be needlessly hurtful.

Edited February 24, 2019 by HouseofBeck
Clarity

[k2p2]

4 hours ago, marieYOTZ said:

My thought while watching the scene where Isaac looked at Ty’s drawing and then dropped it was that he had scanned the image into his memory bank and then didn’t need the physical one anymore because he has a perfect replica of it in his mind. I was thinking that we’d get a scene in the second part where he recreates the image somehow, and Ty realizes that he DID value the picture - he just didn’t see a need to keep the “hard copy”.

That was my thought at the moment, as well. He was scanning the picture to his memory. But then, he didn't just drop the picture. He flicked his wrist as he did it. He didn't just let go of it - he flung the picture away. That causes me to think that this was an Isaac impostor. And would real Isaac litter like that?

[Colorado David]

Good episode, taking a dark turn.   A few logistical quibbles - would the Kaylon not have just disintegrated the bodies of their makers, rather than keeping them around? As they said, they have no emotional attachments so no reason to keep so many bodies laying about. Big waste of space too.

Agree with a previous poster, WAY toooooo easy for a kid to get off the ship. 

That piano player always cracks me up with his funky head.

[rmontro]

7 hours ago, Tyro49 said:

Maybe the scan knocked them all out and none of this is really happening? But that would be a cop-out.

Maybe Dr. Finn will wake up and Isaac will be in the shower, and it was all a dream.

[Chaos Theory]

As must as I love Isaac and was really really shipping Claire and Isaac (I cant explain exactly why I was shipping them so hard but I did) it would be an awesome story to have the Kaylons be a long term villain.   The idea that The biologicals on The Orville put emotions and relationships onto something that didn’t and couldn’t feel the same is an awesome story idea.  Plus it adds some real long term repercussions....especially for Claire and her kids who were thisclose to making Isaac a part of their family.  

Edited February 24, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[ketose]

I was a little disappointing that the reveal was a mass grave. I was half expecting a bunch of humans hooked up as an energy source like in "The Matrix."

[EllenB]

3 hours ago, Colorado David said:

Good episode, taking a dark turn.   A few logistical quibbles - would the Kaylon not have just disintegrated the bodies of their makers, rather than keeping them around? As they said, they have no emotional attachments so no reason to keep so many bodies laying about. Big waste of space too.

Agree with a previous poster, WAY toooooo easy for a kid to get off the ship. 

That piano player always cracks me up with his funky head.

Rats, I don't know how to do multiple quotes.  I'm wondering if the way the bodies were dumped long ago, and the way Isaac (or, Imposter Isaac) flicked the drawing to discard it, has some connection to their assessment of humanoids as useless trash.  And since they don't have the ability to get attached to anything (or anybody), they might see their planet as disposable once they've filled it up and used it up, hence their desire to find a new home.  

I may have missed an earlier reference - do the Kaylons have the ability to create more of themselves since they killed off the humanoids?  Or are they all just the original batch?

Aargh, I'm overthinking this show now, and I told myself I'd just enjoy the ride.

[AD35]

15 hours ago, ganesh said:

When Ed was captured on the Krill ship, they asked for his 'codes'. Presumably, these aren't written down or on any hard drive, so they'll need Ed to give them to Union HQ? Maybe they think they can't enter local Earth-space without them. 

Quote

Did think it odd that they didn't simply wipe out the whole crew - why drag them along?

This  maybe the one advantage the Borg would have that the Kaylons wouldn't.  With the former Ed (and his knowledge) would simply be assimilated and the Borg would be on their merry way to Earth and trash any fleet sent against them. Since whatever codes he has may not be written down or stored somewhere to be accessed, the Kaylons  can threaten to kill any remaining crew members or civilians (and their children) to compel Ed to comply.  And to continue with the (semi-) Borg analogy, I'm expecting to see in part 2 The Orville's answer to the Battle at Wolf 359.

Edited February 24, 2019 by AD35

[tv-talk]

Whatever happens I will be seriously disappointed if they go the way of "this was all just a test" nonsense- that is way too easy an out for the writers and would also involve having all the humans killed on the ship somehow not really be dead which would be lame. I'd rather see the equally cliched "Isaac learned to be human and stopped his people from destroying us" or the "all is lost but wait turns out disco music destroys kaylon neural circuitry" story-lines come to fruition as the show is so heavily a knockoff anyway.

What would really be interesting in terms of a long term story arc and the shift from sci-fi comedy to more straight sci-fi is if the Kaylons are indeed as bad as they appear, Earth is routed but not destroyed because Isaac does choose to side with humans, and the new pressing objective is to bring the Krill into the fold as well as not butt head with the Moclans as AI is now a threat to all biologicals in the galaxy. Kaylons=Cybermen basically.

[Morrigan2575]

I definitely got the feeling that this is The Orville's Borg/Best of Both Worlds episode.  As such, I would absolutely hate it if this turned out to be a simulation. With MacFarlane going on Twitter saying this is a Game Changing episode and, the obvious callbacks to Borg/BoBW it would be self destructive (IMO) to have this be a fake out.

I'm 50/50 on Issac being evil or good. The show can go either way and, I do agree that they seemed to setup an  escape route for Isaac. That being said, I'm not sure I want him to have been reprogrammed or have him revert back and, save the crew. It was tragic and sad to see Isaac's impact on Ty and Marcus. Out of all the betrayals you could level at Issac that one was the worst (IMO). Yet, I kind of love the idea of Evil Biologic destroying AI Isaac. I don't know why but, there is something appealing about a once trusted crewman turning on them and, becoming their greatest enemy.

At this point I think I would actually be disappointed if Issac turned good by the end of the next episode. I think there's way more drama for every character on the crew (save Keyali) if Issac remained an enemy. Plus, they could then follow TNG, DS9 and (non Trek) B5 having enemies become friends in order to fight off a bigger enemy in a grand war (The Borg, The Dominion and Shadows). Having the Krill/Humans/Moclans/Xelayans form a war counsil, put their differences aside etc. to fight the Kaylon could carry The Orville forward for seasons.

This episode has the same feeling as Best of Both Worlds (IMO) which was pretty much the game changer for TNG that was the point where TNG went from OK to Amazing, IMO. S1 was corny and not particularly good, S2 was improved over S1 but, nothing spectacular and then S2 finale ends with Loctus of Borg and it's just BAM! Or the DS9 episode In the Pale Moonlight, which took a great show to the Next Level (seriously one of, if not THE best Trek episodes ever written, IMO).

Long story short, I really hope The Orville doesn't pull a fake out or miracle reversal on Issac. I think they're better off following this down the darker path. However, just like with Locutus they could pull a last minute reversal.

Edited February 24, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[rmontro]

People have different ideas about what it might mean, but I have to say that image of Isaac discarding Ty's picture on the ground sure ended up being a powerful and memorable one.

3 hours ago, tv-talk said:

I'd rather see the equally cliched "Isaac learned to be human and stopped his people from destroying us"

I don't expect this to happen, but here's another possibility:  They could go the way of TNG's Encounter at Farpoint.  Maybe this is a test of some sort, but we have only passed it temporarily - further study by the Kaylons is needed, and at any point they could conclude us unworthy and the attack on Earth would renew.  That would be a dark cloud hanging over them for awhile.  Maybe Isaac could even be the one to convince them that we warrant another chance.

[jumper sage]

22 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

That's why I decided to hod off on watching Part 1 until Part 2 is available on Hulu on Friday.  That way, I don't have to agonize for a week.

Oh come on.  Agonizing is part of the process.  Ooooh, maybe Isaac needs to agonize .........................

17 hours ago, ganesh said:

I'm not sure if I were Ed I would have confronted them about the bodies. I would have gotten out of there fast AF. 

Me too! Grab Isaac and head out, talk later.

15 hours ago, Colorado David said:

Agree with a previous poster, WAY toooooo easy for a kid to get off the ship. 

WTF was that?  Not even a baby gate.  No one is monitoring the biologics movements?  Another reason for my theory of a simulation.

[k2p2]

I finally had a chance to rehash this episode with Mr. K2. His first comment: "Why didn't Isaac use those head lasers on the zombie planet last season? Those would have been useful."

We are still puzzling over how a robot species, about whom we know nothing, convinced someone to allow one of their kind to serve on the bridge crew of a Union ship, with no mission time frame or exit plan. Apparently, the tendency to screw up runs deep in the Union.

It was super convenient that the Kaylon ignored Ty when he was yelling for Isaac, and that the portal to the basement opened up as soon as he got to it, and that he climbed in without a second thought. Why would they have fancy access portals to what is essentially their garbage dump, anyway?

The roundup of the crew had a distinctly Holocaust vibe to it. Given the show's penchant for addressing modern situations, will the resolution have the crew somehow banding together to thwart the Fascists robots?

[Morrigan2575]

13 minutes ago, k2p2 said:

and that the portal to the basement opened up as soon as he got to it, and that he climbed in without a second thought. Why would they have fancy access portals to what is essentially their garbage dump, anyway?

Ty opened the shoot, he touched something which triggered the opening. I don't think there was any door on the bottom of the trash shoot (for lack of a better term).

Slightly off topic but, I wonder when the Genocide took place? I laughed when the crew first brought Issac to the Kaylon because it looked like a typical office lobby. That came up again when Ty was looking for Issac. I rationalized that it was probably location shooting but, it would be kind of cool if the intent was to show that the creators were the advanced race and, that the Kaylon just consumed everything their creators built. Basically, they aren't as intelligent and, superior as they believe. They have no imagination or ability to conceive beyond the knowledge of their creators.  Which is why their only answer to lack of available resources is to take over another planet and, then consume all of their resources (replicating exactly what they have on Kaylon?).

Edited February 24, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

I don't expect this to happen, but here's another possibility:  They could go the way of TNG's Encounter at Farpoint.  Maybe this is a test of some sort, but we have only passed it temporarily - further study by the Kaylons is needed, and at any point they could conclude us unworthy and the attack on Earth would renew.  That would be a dark cloud hanging over them for awhile.  Maybe Isaac could even be the one to convince them that we warrant another chance.

Of all the options I’ve heard, something like this makes the most sense to me.

Only I wouldn’t have it be a test; I’d have the Orville crew and/or Isaac “win” by presenting the Kaylon with a new variable to consider. Like Ed said in this episode, join/not join is a simple binary choice. So is kill/not kill.

So what fits with the MO of the “weirdest ship in the fleet” would be for the crew to make the choice into a non-binary one; something the Kaylon’s can’t easily resolve, possibly even a version of the AI logic bomb (“everything he says is a lie.” “I’m lying to you.”).

Basically, force the Kaylon to hit pause on the Eradication until they can resolve the contradictions. If they want to redeem Isaac have him be the one to develop and present this non-binary condition (with a prerequisite that resolving this issue will require extended further first-hand study... thus Isaac must remain and continue to observe).

This ends the Kaylon threat for now, but leaves the potential for it to return if the issue is ever resolved. Isaac gets enough redemption by basically saving the Union from annihilation to keep serving on the Orville, but with enough tension to add drama (i.e. being a member of a species that’s probably going to genocide you as soon as it resolves the logic bomb you dropped on them).

6 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I rationalized that it was probably location shooting but, it would be kind of cool if the intent was to show that the creators were the advanced race and, that the Kaylon just consumed everything their creators built. Basically, they aren't as intelligent and, superior as they believe. They have no imagination or ability to conceive beyond the knowledge of their creators.  Which is why their only answer to lack of available resources is to take over another planet and, then consume all of their resources (replicating exactly what they have on Kaylon?).

Actually, that wouldn’t be a bad “unconsidered element” to make the Kaylon pause their plans... rather in the vein of Alara giving the super advanced aliens a massive database of reality television in trade from freeing Ed and Kelly from their zoo.

Reveal the absolute stagnation of the Kaylon (basically the opposite of the Borg who kept adapting) and then introduce some element of human culture that Isaac hasn’t been exposed to yet that is also a solution to some long-standing Kaylon problem they have been unable to overcome. The argument then becomes “we’re superior, but if we spare them and study them we might be able to become even more superior.”

Then the Kaylons hit pause until they can figure out the benefits of keeping around the inferior but creative/innovative beings who can make them better vs. the danger they might eventually catch up enough that genociding them later might prove impossible.

To fit with the theme we opened this episode on it should probably be something related to a children’s game where you can only win by thinking outside the box or by employing little kid logic (if you don’t like the game, invent new rules). Thus, Ty and Marcus end up beating not just Isaac, but the entire Kaylon invasion.

[ganesh]

9 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Only I wouldn’t have it be a test; I’d have the Orville crew and/or Isaac “win” by presenting the Kaylon with a new variable to consider. Like Ed said in this episode, join/not join is a simple binary choice. So is kill/not kill.

So what fits with the MO of the “weirdest ship in the fleet” would be for the crew to make the choice into a non-binary one; something the Kaylon’s can’t easily resolve, possibly even a version of the AI logic bomb (“everything he says is a lie.” “I’m lying to you.”).

I'd rather it be this than a 'test'. Though I'd like Ed to be the one that comes up with the nonbinary choice because I like the idea that the hostile non-Union people see him as a mediator. 

[ketose]

7 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Whatever happens I will be seriously disappointed if they go the way of "this was all just a test" nonsense- that is way too easy an out for the writers and would also involve having all the humans killed on the ship somehow not really be dead which would be lame. I'd rather see the equally cliched "Isaac learned to be human and stopped his people from destroying us" or the "all is lost but wait turns out disco music destroys kaylon neural circuitry" story-lines come to fruition as the show is so heavily a knockoff anyway.

What would really be interesting in terms of a long term story arc and the shift from sci-fi comedy to more straight sci-fi is if the Kaylons are indeed as bad as they appear, Earth is routed but not destroyed because Isaac does choose to side with humans, and the new pressing objective is to bring the Krill into the fold as well as not butt head with the Moclans as AI is now a threat to all biologicals in the galaxy. Kaylons=Cybermen basically.

So, the ending of Star Trek: Beyond?

"Best of Both Worlds" was a game changer for TNG, but remember the Federation won by hacking the Borg and making them go to sleep. There are too many computer nerds for that to fly now. I also don't want the show to go "dark." I didn't watch BSG and Stargate: Universe because of that crap.

[Affogato]

 There must be some possible storylines that haven’t been done to death. 

So the biological Kaylons weren’t killed by the AIs. They became the AIs to become immortal! 

So long ago they forgot!

were brainwashed by the real cybermen they continued to enslave! Are bodiless inside the great computer.

maybe the biological entities were wiped out by a plague and the AIs developed real intelligence after the event. 

Isaac may have been ignorant of the goals of his fellows. Created as an export model without the bad thoughts of conquest. In case someone found out the Kaylon plans. 

If there had been a lot of living creatures they might never have found Ty. I’m not a fan of surveillance but why wouldnt everyone have some sort of tracer on them? Also lock the doors!

[shapeshifter]

Upthread someone (@rmontro and maybe Otto too?) asked why the Kaylons would schlep all the way to earth to get more room? Why wouldn't the Kaylons just manufacture a new planet?
While I agree--and even recall a novel that had this premise--on one of the Stargate series (if I recall correctly) the Replicators needed to have a planet composed of the right elements in order to, well, replicate.

.
 

11 hours ago, jumper sage said:

On February 23, 2019 at 12:10 PM, legaleagle53 said:

That's why I decided to hod off on watching Part 1 until Part 2 is available on Hulu on Friday.  That way, I don't have to agonize for a week.

Oh come on.  Agonizing is part of the process.  Ooooh, maybe Isaac needs to agonize .........................

My daughter and her SO haven't had time to watch this episode yet and considered waiting to watch both together since it's a two-parter with a cliff hanger.
I advised they allow at least a day or two in between to get the cliff hanger effect.
But a week is probably too long.
As streaming eventually subsumes all delivery systems, it will be easier to have a special week with 2 episodes since schedule slots won't matter so much.

8 hours ago, k2p2 said:

I finally had a chance to rehash this episode with Mr. K2. His first comment: "Why didn't Isaac use those head lasers on the zombie planet last season? Those would have been useful."

And now I'm having a warm fuzzy feeling imagining my daughter and her SO bonding this way over the show. I guess whether or not they name a puppy Isaac will be determined by next week's conclusion.

.

7 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

So what fits with the MO of the “weirdest ship in the fleet” would be for the crew to make the choice into a non-binary one; something the Kaylon’s can’t easily resolve, possibly even a version of the AI logic bomb (“everything he says is a lie.” “I’m lying to you.”). . . . To fit with the theme we opened this episode on it should probably be something related to a children’s game where you can only win by thinking outside the box or by employing little kid logic (if you don’t like the game, invent new rules). Thus, Ty and Marcus end up beating not just Isaac, but the entire Kaylon invasion.

Yes please. The show's Gen Omegas save the day!
Maybe it will be Marcus's idea. He seems to have a more level head.
Or perhaps Ty's idea because he is impulsive.
BTW, BJ Tanner/Marcus looks like he's going to be well over 6' tall next season.

.

On February 23, 2019 at 4:56 PM, ganesh said:

Was that the actor's voice actually singing? He was really good.

 Yes, Scott Grimes/Gordon sings very nicely. I melted.
And now I understand why he and Adrianne Palicki are together.

Edited February 25, 2019 by shapeshifter

[Bort]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Yes, Scott Grimes/Gordon sings very nicely. I melted.

And now I understand why he and Adrianne Palicki are together.

Ha, I was watching her during the scene. I swear I saw little hearts floating around her head. 

[rmontro]

5 hours ago, k2p2 said:

We are still puzzling over how a robot species, about whom we know nothing, convinced someone to allow one of their kind to serve on the bridge crew of a Union ship, with no mission time frame or exit plan. Apparently, the tendency to screw up runs deep in the Union.

Everyone is probably too busy brushing up on their 80s/90s pop culture to do their job properly.

Or maybe everybody in the future is just too tolerant. 

5 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

So what fits with the MO of the “weirdest ship in the fleet” would be for the crew to make the choice into a non-binary one; something the Kaylon’s can’t easily resolve, possibly even a version of the AI logic bomb (“everything he says is a lie.” “I’m lying to you.”).

That's definitely the way Captain Kirk would have handled it.  It's like Nomad frying his circuits and blowing up after being fed a similar contradiction.  They just don't build robots the way they used to.  That's almost too big a cliche to use now though (the blowing up bit, not the contradiction).  The non-binary question sounds like a pretty good idea.

The other big sci fi cliche is like introducing a virus (Bortus' porn virus has been mentioned), or introducing a simple command where if you turn one Kaylon off you turn them all off.

[tv-talk]

I actually wouldnt mind if Isaac was just simply bad. Yes I would miss him as a regular character to an extent and am not sure how they'd replace what he brought to each episode- but it would be a fine direction for the story to go. Claire is so incredibly naive and the fact she actually got angry with him a few times really annoyed me. She's supposed to be the this hyper-intelligent doctor who much of the crew actually looks to as being wise or some such- yet there she was behaving as if a robot with an AI brain was supposed to have legit feeling for her and her children. It wouldnt be the worst thing if her love for a machine was simply misplaced and that in fact, Isaac is just Isaac rather than the tired trope of the machine that becomes human. Especially Isaac, I mean at least Data seemed insanely advanced and capable of evolution. The Kaylons are pretty much an homage to the Cybermen of the Tom Baker era and don't even behave in a fashion that would indicate they could be more than machines. 

I do think tho the show will go the standard route of Isaac growing a heart.

[Rambler]

I think the lesson we can all take from this episode is to never put a Mr. Potato Head on a robot as it might result in the extinction of the entire human race.

[chaifan]

6 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Only I wouldn’t have it be a test; I’d have the Orville crew and/or Isaac “win” by presenting the Kaylon with a new variable to consider. Like Ed said in this episode, join/not join is a simple binary choice. So is kill/not kill.

So what fits with the MO of the “weirdest ship in the fleet” would be for the crew to make the choice into a non-binary one; something the Kaylon’s can’t easily resolve, possibly even a version of the AI logic bomb (“everything he says is a lie.” “I’m lying to you.”).

To fit with the theme we opened this episode on it should probably be something related to a children’s game where you can only win by thinking outside the box or by employing little kid logic (if you don’t like the game, invent new rules). Thus, Ty and Marcus end up beating not just Isaac, but the entire Kaylon invasion.

Well, with Seth's fondness for 80's pop culture, I suppose we'll hear a somewhat familiar computer voice say "do you want to play a game?" and then take down the Kaylon's with a vigorous round of Tic Tac Toe. 

[Raja]

On 2/23/2019 at 9:06 AM, rmontro said:

And why would they need Earth of all places?  They like the infrastructure?  Because it's the source of delicious cakes with flowers on every corner?

It seems a stupid place to go if they are after all the biological life. We and Issac has been told over and over that Earth and The Union are not the baddest bunch out there. When the past exterminations were secret to go after earth only warns everybody else to get their defenses up. It would be like Hitler invading Poland and thus warning the other superpowers , the Soviet Union, the UK and France to get ready.

On 2/23/2019 at 8:34 AM, HouseofBeck said:

Indeed. I was waiting for something or somebody to detect that a child was both activating exits and leaving the ship. Nope!

That reminds me of a TNG episode where an ancient human compared the Enterprise to a cruise ship where in a post 9/11 world you just don't get off or on  the ship unnoticed

[Bort]

2 minutes ago, Raja said:

That reminds me of a TNG episode where an ancient human compared the Enterprise to a cruise ship where in a post 9/11 world you just don't get off or on  the ship unnoticed

That’s an excellent point, actually. When I went on a cruise, and this was just a cruise, you had to scan your card on and off the ship. They had to account for who was on and who was off, so that they wouldn’t leave without people. 

You'd think that a starship would have similar measures. For that matter, have an alert when people’s life signs suddenly cease, like the Moclan engineer in the last episode. Nobody knew he was gone until Talla asked the computer. 

[rmontro]

57 minutes ago, Raja said:

It seems a stupid place to go if they are after all the biological life. We and Issac has been told over and over that Earth and The Union are not the baddest bunch out there.

Well, way to go, Ed.  You just told the Kaylons Earth is a bunch of pushovers, ripe for conquering.  Maybe the Kaylons even cancelled their conquest of the Krill because taking over Earth would be more efficient.

[Dobian]

On 2/22/2019 at 7:56 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Well, then!

So, basically the Kaylons are really just this show's version of the Borg, only instead of assimilating everyone to their Collective, they just believe all biological life should be exterminated.  Creepy!  Actually, it being revealed they took out their creators actually reminded me of a sci-fi video game series called Mass Effect, where an alien race (called Quarians) created a species of artificial intelligence (called the Geth), and it ended with them getting almost wiped about by their creations.  That's the risk when dealing with robots, apparently!

This is exactly what I was thinking when watching the episode.  The Geth drove the Quarians completely off their planet.  The idea of the human race being wiped out by our a.i. creations is not new and is being talked up a lot more now that we are making such rapid strides in this technology.

Terrific and frightening episode.  Nice cgi with the guns sprouting out of the Kaylons' heads.  The show knows how to switch gears and go from something funny to something dramatic and scary.

For the life of me I can't see Isaac ever redeeming himself and being in the crew of the Orville again, but if he did, I can picture a prank where they stick a Hitler mustache on him.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Dobian

[ganesh]

It's my understanding that Earth is Union HQ, and it's not clear if the Kaylons knew that the Union has 300 member states (planets). It seems like Earth is an obvious target. 

Have we seen other Union ships with a non-Earth captain?

[Emma9]

7 hours ago, rmontro said:

That's definitely the way Captain Kirk would have handled it.  It's like Nomad frying his circuits and blowing up after being fed a similar contradiction.  They just don't build robots the way they used to.

Or you could suggest they work out the exact value of Pi before proceeding with the conquest. (MacGuyver just had a robot get bricked by a riddle he couldn't solve, so apparently the cliche isn't retired yet.)

7 hours ago, Rambler said:

I think the lesson we can all take from this episode is to never put a Mr. Potato Head on a robot as it might result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Ed tried to warn him about pranking crewmates, but noooo...

On 2/23/2019 at 2:54 PM, shapeshifter said:

POSSIBLE REASONS FOR ISAAC CRASHING AT THAT MOMENT:

• Isaac started to have feelings that would conflict with the Kayon/Borg's objective
• Marcus's reservations indicated that Isaac's prime objective would soon be discovered
• It was just time.

I also wondered why that exact moment. (Beyond the storytelling 'to cause maximum hurt to Claire' reason, of course.) It could be that Isaac's assignment just had either a predetermined duration or amount of data to be collected - in the latter case, in retrospect, his vacation on Planet Kelly might not have been such a great idea after all. We might have gotten a reprieve for 700 years! Unless he was specifically supposed to be gathering information on the Union, not just biologicals in general, in which case anything he gleaned there could have been discarded.

Or, yes, the Kaylons could have detected that Isaac was becoming 'infected' by the human way of thinking, causing them to decide it was time both to shut him down and prepare to go on the offensive. (I could be wrong, but I assumed they'd already made up their minds by the time the Orville arrived, and even if they hadn't returned Isaac, the Kaylons still would've launched their attack.)

Edited February 25, 2019 by Emma9

[Miles]

Is everybody in the Union a dumbass? Of course these robots were created by somebody. What, did the union think they fell out of the sky or something? And that they rose up and killed their creators instead of the creators dying of natural causes: About 99% probable...

So how are these dumbasses so surprised? Also going back and confronting them isntead of hauling ass out of there? Real smart.

I mean the inevitable twist next week will be that Isaac actually does love the crew and the kids and secretely turned on his homeworld and will save the day somehow, but really, the union would have deserved to be wiped out at this point.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Miles

[Chaos Theory]

Is it possible that the other Kaylons thought Isaacs developing feelings for Clair and her kids was a computer virus and delteted it.  Ed and the crew can win the day by just reinstalling the “virus” and have all the Kaylons be in love with Claire.  

[Colorado David]

Anyone else think that wall that the Kaylons were using seemed like a huge version of Tetris?

[ganesh]

So when Issac was deactivated, were the Kaylons doing it remotely? Because that would be quite the technology. 

It seemed to me that a flag was hit and Isaac shut down. Like, it was embedded there in the first place. 

[Morrigan2575]

It's a good question, i thought that they deactivated remotely but, i wonder if it was, as you said a Flag.  

[ganesh]

Being able to shut him down remotely in real time is a huge technological leap to me because they'd have to be monitoring him 24/7 and processing huge amounts of data. 

It doesn't make sense he's on a timer and hit N hours and shut down because he could be on the bridge and serving in a crisis. 

Unless the Kaylons were processing his reports from like 2 weeks ago and decided that was that or something and sent the shutdown signal and it just got there.

I would think that sending out the living robot on his own to live with biological life forms would necessitate failsafes in the programming.