Leaving Neverland

[Ashforth]

On 3/22/2019 at 2:01 PM, kathe5133 said:

I think Michael's "white-ification" was an important component of the pass he got while basically openly practicing pedophilia. In our racist society, if he had been the black man in the photo on the left sleeping with little white boys, it would never have been treated as a mere quirk.

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

Everything @Kostgard just said, plus, as big an issue as this is in the psyches of Robson and Safechuck, I don't think it's consuming them. They're not always intensely focused on it for the purpose of a one-hour special, a four-hour documentary, or an interview in which the one and only subject is "my relationship with Michael Jackson." They have good things in their lives too. I'm not really worried about them...except inasmuch as they're now targets for the harassment of lunatics. 

Speaking of which, I was reading someone on Facebook yesterday (the friend of a friend) tearing his hair about how now we're "destroying art," with the obligatory comparisons of Jackson to various dead writers/painters/sculptors who did this or that. As if Michael Jackson's music is ever going to be hard to find, for anyone who wants to seek it out. And as if the decision of some people just not to listen to it, for any reason, is a crime against art.  

I do love how MJ doesn't get the blame for "destroying art". Everything that is happening is "his own fault".  If people now hate his work or can't listen to it. You know what? Its his fault. 

 

10 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Actually what I think it is is that in the showbiz industry older powerful men taking advantage of younger (or VERY young) people is so commonplace that to people like Barbra and Diana Ross it is absolutely normal. They might even have the attitude of "hey I went through it and I turned out fine. Why can't they turn out like me?" I do know Diana Ross was very young when she began a long relationship with Berry Gordy of Motown. Who knows whether it was consensual. They even had a child together. 

That actually makes a lot of sense. I can see a lot of the older stars thinking exactly that. They had to go through so much and put up with so much. All of it was normal. Or what they had to put up with to be a star. Even if they wanted to complain. To who? There would have been no one to complain too. Certainly no one who would do anything about it. Thinking just that.'I went through it and turned out fine'. Its really sad. It wasn't right then and its not right now.

[Neko]

I remember after the first accusation, no one played MJ's music on the radio, anymore.  In the early 90's, not getting airplay was a big deal, since that was the only way people heard new music.  Then, after he released his vomit-y, 'woe is me' album, HIStory, they started playing him, again.  Maybe not as much as they once did, but that's because we were well into the 90's at that point, tastes were changing, and the songs on that album just weren't very good.  Aside from Scream and You Are Not Alone, you didn't hear much from HIStory.  But, they still played him, even after he was accused of raping Jordan Chandler.  He never truly went away, and he's not going to, now.  The, "Think about THE ART!!" brigade can calm down.  The art isn't going anywhere, not even after all this.  Whether that's good or bad, is entirely up to the individual, and that's one of the positives about having so many streaming services.  If I wanted to listen to Human Nature (my favorite MJ song), right now, I can still do that.  I don't have to rely on the radio, because this is not 1992.  Pretty cool, huh?

[TigerLynx]

1 hour ago, Ashforth said:

I think Michael's "white-ification" was an important component of the pass he got while basically openly practicing pedophilia. In our racist society, if he had been the black man in the photo on the left sleeping with little white boys, it would never have been treated as a mere quirk.

I don't believe this.  Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, OJ Simpson, Kevin Spacey, etc., some black some white, got a free pass for decades.

Edited March 24, 2019 by TigerLynx

[Razzberry]

2 hours ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

Speaking of which, I was reading someone on Facebook yesterday (the friend of a friend) tearing his hair about how now we're "destroying art," with the obligatory comparisons of Jackson to various dead writers/painters/sculptors who did this or that. As if Michael Jackson's music is ever going to be hard to find, for anyone who wants to seek it out. And as if the decision of some people just not to listen to it, for any reason, is a crime against art. 

Yeah, while they can certainly sully their own reputation with outrageous behavior, no one's suggesting a book burning.  Pedophilia is repugnant  (outside of entertainment industry anyway) because, sure, it may not kill you,  but it always damages.  I'm surprised this has to be pointed out.

You Tube from LaLa Land -   An Open Secret: Inside The Truth of Hollywood Pedophilia

Atlantic article about director Bryan Singer -  "No One's Going to Believe You"

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, TigerLynx said:

I don't believe this.  Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, OJ Simpson, Kevin Spacey, etc., some black some white, got a free pass for decades.

But I think what they were talking about was a different thing. All those people had public reputations that were normal, whatever rumors were going around. At the time the fact that Polanski's victim was 13 didn't really matter--people didn't to see it as a case of child rape.

With MJ we're talking about a grown man publicly sleeping with various children as if he was a big pedophile and in that case I really can't confidently say that it didn't help that he looked more white. It's a gross idea, but I wouldn't put it past society to be more vigilant about a man they read more clearly as black. Of course it doesn't all come down to race in any of those cases, but race can always be a complicating factor. Michael's free pass involved letting him sleep with little boys, which is unusual.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Razzberry said:

Yeah, while they can certainly sully their own reputation with outrageous behavior, no one's suggesting a book burning.  Pedophilia is repugnant  (outside of entertainment industry anyway) because, sure, it may not kill you,  but it always damages.  I'm surprised this has to be pointed out.

You Tube from LaLa Land -   An Open Secret: Inside The Truth of Hollywood Pedophilia

Atlantic article about director Bryan Singer -  "No One's Going to Believe You"

Holy crap to that first video.

Odd, that even as a child I overheard stories about young female stars, but I don't remember anything about young boys and show biz, honestly until Michael.  I think Judy Garland was one, by LB Mayer I think, and some of the "munchkins" in WoO as well.

My mom and dad knew a lot of Hollywood people, so anything I heard was by eavesdropping on the grownups.

[Melina22]

From the media, news reports and biographies I've read, I get the feeling that everyone in Hollywood is sleeping with everyone else all the time. Even going back to biographies of Ava Gardner, Marilyn Monroe, etc. it was like they all lived in another world where the normal rules didn't apply.  Maybe it's a bit like reading about the court at Versailles. 

Obviously a lot of the "romance" was consensual, but undoubtedly much of it wasn't, or was sort of borderline. So actresses, singers, etc. didn't "have to", as long as they didn't mind never having a career. And increasingly, I'm seeing items implying children were involved. 

I don't doubt that the music world that MJ inhabited functioned/functions in a similar way. The more light that pours in, via documentaries like Leaving Neverland, the better. 

That said, for my own mental and emotional health I'm not going to go down that particular rabbit hole any further, through watching videos and following links. Full power to those that can handle it, though. 

[Umbelina]

18 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

That said, for my own mental and emotional health I'm not going to go down that particular rabbit hole any further, through watching videos and following links. Full power to those that can handle it, though. 

What's most interesting about that Illuminati video, is the similarities between MJ's methods, and the trauma that hit these young boys mostly when they were older, and of course the drugs and the sex.  What's different is the way the public handled it (hello!  first I'm hearing of it!  no protests, etc.)  Also these guys were, at least in several cases, convicted, even though they didn't serve much, if any, time.

MJ kept it between him and the children though, where these guys had an organized ring of men participating.

[Ashforth]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

3 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I don't believe this.  Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, OJ Simpson, Kevin Spacey, etc., some black some white, got a free pass for decades.

But I think what they were talking about was a different thing. All those people had public reputations that were normal, whatever rumors were going around. At the time the fact that Polanski's victim was 13 didn't really matter--people didn't to see it as a case of child rape.

With MJ we're talking about a grown man publicly sleeping with various children as if he was a big pedophile and in that case I really can't confidently say that it didn't help that he looked more white. It's a gross idea, but I wouldn't put it past society to be more vigilant about a man they read more clearly as black. Of course it doesn't all come down to race in any of those cases, but race can always be a complicating factor. Michael's free pass involved letting him sleep with little boys, which is unusual.

You did understand me correctly @sistermagpie, I was referring narrowly to MJ and the way he paraded his victims in public and the way that was glossed over for a long time as an eccentricity or innocent love of children. And we're talking about little kids here - age 7 and up. That should have gotten a lot more scrutiny early on. At the time the things documented in this film happened, MJ was arguably the most famous person in the world. I do think that if MJ hadn't altered his appearance so dramatically and still looked like a Black man, he would have been viewed with more suspicion. YMMV

I get what @TigerLynx said as well (though I'm not sure OJ Simpson belongs in that group, since as far as I know the rest haven't murdered people). However, Cosby drugged and raped grown women and was far from open about it, his reputation was that of a devoted husband. Weinstein used his position of power to coerce or rape women, but not seven year olds, as far as I've heard, and most people probably didn't know who he was. Polanski actually was prosecuted close to the time of his crime.

I think a more apt comparison would be Bryan Singer, a White director who has apparently been well-known in Hollywood circles as a rapist of young boys for quite a long time, but was only recently accused publicly enough that it made it into the press that most of us see. The difference there is that he doesn't have the high public profile that MJ did and didn't get worldwide media coverage for having a string of pre-adolescent boy "best friends." That's what I was talking about.

[Growsonwalls]

4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

That actually makes a lot of sense. I can see a lot of the older stars thinking exactly that. They had to go through so much and put up with so much. All of it was normal. Or what they had to put up with to be a star. Even if they wanted to complain. To who? There would have been no one to complain too. Certainly no one who would do anything about it. Thinking just that.'I went through it and turned out fine'. Its really sad. It wasn't right then and its not right now.

I'd also argue that Barbra weighing in on this when there was no need to weigh in proves that actually, she's NOT okay. This screams her probably trying to justify some very painful memories by blaming Wade and James for not staying silent and just taking it. Barbra was also very young when she was discovered as a talent. She too said she went from casting office to casting office as a teenager trying to get roles and singing gigs. She probably ran into some very gross guys in the process. Who knows what her experiences are. But back then when Darryl Zanuck had his infamous "girl of the hour" and Louis B. Mayer was considered the "best" of the studio bosses because while he threatened people with contracts and occasionally "groped" he wasn't as gross as Harry Cohn, Jack Warner, or Darryl Zanuck, starlets had no choice but to just take it.

[Umbelina]

I think it's also a matter of name recognition, and familiarity with the abusers..

Bill Cosby, and Michael Jackson were two of the most famous people in the world.  Many people grew up watching MJ grow up, and grew up watching Cosby as a comic and then the great "everydad" that broke a significant race barrier on television.

Weinstein?  Super movie buffs knew who he was, the "industry" certainly knew who he was, and sure, most of us heard his name (if we were paying attention) during various Oscar acceptance speeches or nominations, but there is no way, outside of that relative handful of people, anyone KNEW him, or had any reason to feel they knew him.

That group of men from the interview above?  I still don't even know all their names, and I certainly didn't know who any of them are, let alone feel any connection to them.  Hell, from the end of that video, a few are still working in Hollywood, and most were never even named, nobodies who knew this dude who rounded up attractive kids for an entire group of men, all for sexual gratification.

[Growsonwalls]

Hmm a more apt comparison might be Bill O'Reilly. O'Reilly's comments about women were public record -- he almost seemed to flaunt his misogyny. And over the years he had numerous lawsuits against him not for harassment but for rape. Fox News bought most of those women off. His reputation in the business was as the absolute sleaziest and he had some stiff competition. This went on until even Fox couldn't protect him anymore.

But if you go back and watch O'Reilly shows his disparaging comments towards women as well as the parade of short-skirted, sullen looking blonds who appeared on his show were what I'd call hiding in plain sight. 

Of course O'Reilly is nowhere the megastar that MJ was, but it's an example of someone not really hiding who he was.

[formerlyfreedom]

Just a gentle reminder; please stick to discussing the documentary and follow-up to the documentary. On-going discussion of other abusers, molesters, or assaulters (proven/alleged/otherwise) is not on topic here. If you would like to discuss them further, there is the Hollywood's Dirty Little (Open) Secrets: Harvey Weinstein and Others Like Him topic over in the Everything Else TV forum.

Thank you.

[Umbelina]

https://variety.com/2019/film/news/barbra-streisand-michael-jackson-remarks-backlash-1203170857/
 

Quote

Barbra Streisand has released a statement clarifying remarks she made about the recent allegations of underage sexual abuse against Michael Jackson.

“To be crystal clear, there is no situation or circumstance where it is OK for the innocence of children to be taken advantage of by anyone,” the statement reads. “The stories these two young men shared were painful to hear, and I feel nothing but sympathy for them. The single most important role of being a parent is to protect their children.  It’s clear that the parents of the two young men were also victimized and seduced by fame and fantasy.”

Streisand also posted an apology to Instagram.

“I am profoundly sorry for any pain or misunderstanding I caused by not choosing my words more carefully about Michael Jackson and his victims, because the words as printed do not reflect my true feelings,” the post reads. “I didn’t mean to dismiss the trauma these boys experienced in any way.”“I feel deep remorse and hope James and Wade know that I truly respect and admire them for speaking their truth,” it concluded.

[AgentRXS]

6 hours ago, Ashforth said:

You did understand me correctly @sistermagpie, I was referring narrowly to MJ and the way he paraded his victims in public and the way that was glossed over for a long time as an eccentricity or innocent love of children. And we're talking about little kids here - age 7 and up. That should have gotten a lot more scrutiny early on. At the time the things documented in this film happened, MJ was arguably the most famous person in the world. I do think that if MJ hadn't altered his appearance so dramatically and still looked like a Black man, he would have been viewed with more suspicion. YMMV 

I agree. Michael was not a stupid man. I believe the skin bleaching and the plastic surgery were partly due to his self hate, but also also because he knew justice for blacks and whites are often two different things. If he aged naturally and got busted, he may have still been acquitted during the 1st trial, but he would have been shunned out of Hollywood forever.

Michael played  on the public's tendency to be fascinated eccentricities and oddities. He turned his life into a one-man freak show so that he could hide his pedophilia in plain sight.

Edited March 25, 2019 by AgentRXS

[Robert Lynch]

Juror believes Michael Jackson abused Wade Robson and Culkin

Is that the same juror that winked at the camera and told the woman not to wag her fingers at her? 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Robert Lynch

[Scarlett45]

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

https://variety.com/2019/film/news/barbra-streisand-michael-jackson-remarks-backlash-1203170857/
 

If that’s the case why would Barbara open her mouth in the first place?!!!

[wendyg]

13 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

If that’s the case why would Barbara open her mouth in the first place?!!!

It was an interview in the London Times (paywalled). She was probably *asked*.

[Blakeston]

11 hours ago, AgentRXS said:

I agree. Michael was not a stupid man. I believe the skin bleaching and the plastic surgery were partly due to his self hate, but also also because he knew justice for blacks and whites are often two different things.

I agree with this. I've seen a lot of people suggest that the childish behavior and the squeaky speaking voice and the plastic surgery and skin bleaching were all a cold calculation done in the name of getting away with child molestation. And I think that was very likely part of it, but I don't think it was all done for that reason.

I think he really was emotionally trapped in the mind of a child - which was almost certainly why he was sexually attracted to children in the first place. The man was absolutely obsessed with water gun fights. I can't buy that was all an act. I think he really did want to live like a child for the rest of his life.

As for why he didn't act or speak that way when he was in his late teens and early twenties - I'm guessing it's because he wasn't the world's biggest star yet, and so he had to behave somewhat "normally" to get ahead. Once he reached the peak of his career, that's when I think he felt like he had the freedom to truly let his freak flag fly.

I also think his body dysmorphia was very real. Oprah once commented that during her famous interview with him, he saw what he looked like on a monitor, and was completely horrified. He said something about how huge his nose looked - despite his nose barely existing at that point.

[Razzberry]

Streisand can call it an "apology" but I call it lame.  By saying "You can call it molestation, but.." says to me she doesn't consider it to be.  I don't know any context that could change that meaning. 

Another head-scratcher - The medical examiner confirmed that MJ had vitiligo, and apparently his oldest alleged son has it too.

[ari333]

Was Blanket from another mother than the two older kids?

[doodlebug]

18 minutes ago, ari333 said:

Was Blanket from another mother than the two older kids?

Yes, we know Debbie Rowe was not his mother.  An anonymous surrogate was used.  Rumor has it that she was a Mexican woman.

[biakbiak]

2 hours ago, wendyg said:

It was an interview in the London Times (paywalled). She was probably *asked*.

That doesn’t mean she has to answer.

[ari333]

31 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Yes, we know Debbie Rowe was not his mother.  An anonymous surrogate was used.  Rumor has it that she was a Mexican woman.

All three are good looking children/young adults. I dont recall Debbie being very attractive. She was fair skinned and blonde. MJ was a handsome young man before he destroyed his face. I had a huge crush on him (and Donny Osmond) I am old

[Melina22]

9 minutes ago, ari333 said:

All three are good looking children/young adults. I dont recall Debbie being very attractive

I definitely see a resemblance between Debbie and Paris. I feel that Debbie was really hurt when she realized that once she had the babies Michael was basically done with her. In fact, if you were to make a list of the people he hurt deeply over the years, it would be shockingly long. And the ripples are still going... 

[Razzberry]

I think Blanket may have been dropped on his head a time or two. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Razzberry

[Robert Lynch]

Not to be prudish or anything, but Blanket's long hair makes him look like a dead ringer for SNL's Cecily Strong. They look really identical to one another.

[ari333]

27 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

I think Blanket may have been dropped on his head a time or two. 

Are these the MJ kids? Who is the fourth person?

[Kostgard]

6 minutes ago, ari333 said:

Are these the MJ kids? Who is the fourth person?

Is that Omer Bhatti? He was the last of MJ’s special friends who MJ met when he was 11, but he stuck around into his 20s and seemed to be something of a nanny to the kids.

[Scarlett45]

On 3/23/2019 at 10:57 PM, A.Ham said:

Certainly feels like it. Even with the explanation about Diana Ross being close friends with him, it’s like, ok, who is next on this celebrity apology tour? Ok, well, I suppose one ca say that Diana is not able to be objective about the situation. So does she get a pass in excusing his behavior? That’s a grayer area for me.

 Back to Barbara—her statement is, at best, tone deaf, and at worst, hand-waving child abuse. 

I think in the case of Diana, if you just do not believe abuse or ANYTHING inappropriate ever occurred, you can be accused of having you head in the sand but you’re still being logically consistent and morally centered. 

I think Diana just doesn’t believe it- I vehemently disagree with her, but SHE doesn’t believe it. 

Barbara was saying that she believed it all happened but that it wasn’t “that bad” and “they were thrilled”- to me that’s corrupt on a moral level. 

[Melina22]

31 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think Diana just doesn’t believe it- I vehemently disagree with her, but SHE doesn’t believe it. 

I agree. And I feel that people have a right to not think people are guilty. I may completely disagree with people who think Wade and James are lying, and think their logic is faulty, but they have a right to their own feelings and beliefs. It comes, not from their love of child abuse, but their love of and belief in MJ. I'm sad for them. They need so badly for him to be innocent. 

That said, if their belief in MJ's innocence leads them to be abusive or cruel to other people, well, that's something completely different, and I could never support that. 

[Robert Lynch]

As for Diana Ross, all I remember is the 1999 VMA incident with Lil' Kim made on national television.

[Umbelina]

9 hours ago, Robert Lynch said:

Juror believes Michael Jackson abused Wade Robson and Culkin

Is that the same juror that winked at the camera and told the woman not to wag her fingers at her? 

Who knows, but she did NOT do her duty as a juror, and neither did the other one who caved into the majority.  You are not there for consensus, you are there to follow the judges orders, to discuss, and to vote your conscience. 

If she was that firm about believing him guilty, she should have stuck to her guns with the other person.  It would have been a hung jury and a retrial, and at retrial, Jackson may well have been convicted, since the prosecution knew where it's main weakness was.

4 hours ago, Melina22 said:

I definitely see a resemblance between Debbie and Paris. I feel that Debbie was really hurt when she realized that once she had the babies Michael was basically done with her. In fact, if you were to make a list of the people he hurt deeply over the years, it would be shockingly long. And the ripples are still going... 

I don't think she was hurt.  The "marriage" was only there so the kids could be legitimate and/or so MJ could have decent press.  She was never going to be "their mother" except by birth.  She sold them to him as soon as seemed decent, and I'd be astounded if that was not the plan all along.

As for Barbra?  She may have been tipsy when she said that first statement, hell, that may even be what she thinks, or what she's told herself for years about how she became a "star."  Either way, the people who handle her, or perhaps her husband, made her clean up that disaster as soon as possible.

[biakbiak]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Who knows, but she did NOT do her duty as a juror, and neither did the other one who caved into the majority.  You are not there for consensus, you are there to follow the judges orders, to discuss, and to vote your conscience. 

The case wasn’t about Robson and Culkin so saying she believes they were lying doesn’t mean that she felt the prosecution proved its case beyond a reasonable doubt. 

[Melina22]

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The "marriage" was only there so the kids could be legitimate and/or so MJ could have decent press.  Sh

I don't think she wanted to be their mother, but going by an interview I saw with her a long time ago, he made her feel really special, like she was doing something wonderful. I got the feeling she was in love with him and was shocked at the way he dropped her from his life as soon as he got what he wanted. Sounds like a pattern in his life. 

[Umbelina]

18 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

The case wasn’t about Robson and Culkin so saying she believes they were lying doesn’t mean that she felt the prosecution proved its case beyond a reasonable doubt. 

In the article she says she believed both then and now that MJ was molesting male children.  Robson and Culkin testified, which is why she mentioned them in this article.

13 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

I don't think she wanted to be their mother, but going by an interview I saw with her a long time ago, he made her feel really special, like she was doing something wonderful. I got the feeling she was in love with him and was shocked at the way he dropped her from his life as soon as he got what he wanted. Sounds like a pattern in his life. 

She didn't even contest the sole custody ruling, she's never tried to see the kids. 

She made a business arrangement, and I'm sure she was very well paid, which is what she was after, the money.  Certainly not the kids, and probably not even the rest of MJ's money, she took her cash, and split.  Nothing wrong with that, but I don't think motherhood, let alone being a wife was ever part of her plan.

[biakbiak]

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

n the article she says she believed both then and now that MJ was molesting male children.  Robson and Culkin testified, which is why she mentioned them in this article.

But that does not mean that she believed the prosecution proved its case in the matter that she was a juror for which is all that she is supposed to be take into account. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by biakbiak

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

But that does not mean that she believed the prosecution proved its case in the matter that she was a juror for which is all that she is supposed to be take into account. 

Quote

Cook told Radar she never bought the boys’ testimonies.

“I didn’t believe them,” Cook said of Culkin and Robson, adding that she thought the boys made up the story to protect the King of Pop.

“They were kids who grew up with Michael.”

When Radar reached out for comment, Culkin’s rep said: “We decline to dignify the request with a response.”

Cook further confessed she was one of only two jurors who found Jackson guilty of intoxicating and molesting young boy Gavin Arvizo.

“I definitely thought he was guilty with all my heart and soul,” Cook firmly told Radar. “I have always thought that. I have prayed about it.”

Cook added that despite believing Jackson was guilty, she “felt sorry for him.”

“His father mistreated him. Yes, he was guilty, and he did a lot of that stuff. But he had a hard life, and his mother was the only one that was there every day. She was a very sweet woman.”

Jackson’s father Joe died in 2018, while his mother Katherine Opens a New Window. is in failing health Opens a New Window. at age 88.

Cook claimed Jackson “should have been sent to jail” and “punished,” but she eventually decided on “not guilty” with the rest of the jury because she and another like-minded juror “knew we weren’t going to change anyone’s mind.”

“We gave in,” she explained.

italics and bolds mine

[Razzberry]

Big celebrity lawyers and star-struck jurors makes it very hard to get a conviction.  Mesereau could have you believing Santa Claus actually did it and Jackson was an innocent bystander. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

“We gave in,” she explained.

Wow, you nailed it. She absolutely did not do her job as a juror. In a case where the person is a serial offender and would obviously go on to abuse more kids. It's not an internet fight where you agree to disagree because you're not going to change anyone's mind. You vote what you genuinely think and if it's not unanimous those are the breaks. It's a shame that I'll bet if the situation was reversed and there was a big Jackson fan on the jury they'd have held out.

I guess it's hard in a case where there's no evidence you can really point to and it's all about testimony. Even if she thought Robson was lying, his testimony said Jackson was innocent. But still, if he could sway the jury away from the other boy, she could sway the other way.

[Ashforth]

Mean comments about Blanket's looks are cruel and unnecessary. He is an innocent victim of all of this (along with Paris and Prince).

I can easily believe that Debbie Rowe thought MJ loved her and wouldn't take her children from her, no matter what the business arrangement was that he lured her to enter into. For Christ's sake, he manipulated many entire families for years. That's the whole point of this documentary.

The juror who caved was wrong, but it's a common occurrence. I work in the legal field and the things that happen with juries roam far from the pure purpose of the judicial system.

[CeeBeeGee]

I have watched the documentary several times now. I was literally shaking afterward--literally shaking. I haven't believed MJ since the '93 allegations and frankly I didn't give a shit when he died. To me, after '93 he was someone who had gotten away with child molestation. But I had no--NO--idea it was that bad, that...appalling. I guess I thought it was touching, inappropriate boundary-crossing, not...that. The part where Wade described--the graphic part about his being seven, and how big MJ was--this quite literally made me vomit. I was walking to the train and that flashed into my head and I started gagging and ended up vomiting onto the sidewalk. That poor baby--Wade was just a baby. He was seven. James was ten. I am so, so angry on their behalf. I want to dig up Michael Jackson's filthy pedophile corpse and burn the bones and spit on the ashes. 

On 3/4/2019 at 10:11 AM, Blakeston said:

At the end of the day, even if Michael was so warped that he truly believed that his sexual relationships with these boys were healthy and normal, he's still a vicious person for casually disposing of the boys the way that he did once they reached a certain age. The love and kindness and caring was all an act.

This bothers me nearly as much as the sexual abuse--the casual abandonment. How terribly hurt both of them must have felt, wondering if they'd said or done the wrong thing, crying on the couch as James talked about. It's breathtakingly cruel. 

On 3/4/2019 at 8:16 PM, Drogo said:

No one would say this precise disgusting shit happened if it didn't happen.  Both of these guys look like they were hit by a steam engine. 

Like everyone else said, I just want to wrap my arms around them and shower them with unconditional support and friendship. Maybe some ice cream sundaes and teddy bears. Wade and James--you did not deserve this. You are good people. You were good sons, you are good fathers. You did not deserve this.

On 3/6/2019 at 5:02 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

I think there is a misconception in this country that the vast majority of citizens detest and disapprove of child sex abuse.  I don't think the frequency of that abuse reflects that assumption.  I think we have a society of liars and fake people, who pay lip service to abolishing child sex abuse, while secretly supporting or condoning it.  I'm not sure when this reality will be realized.  As more survivors speak out, the more it will be revealed that this abuse is actually practiced by MANY citizens from all walks of life. They lie when they pretend to be outraged by it, but, in reality they are not that opposed.  How do we fight a scourge throughout our nation that is that well liked by so many SECRET admirers?  

I think most Americans pay lip service to being against sex abuse but as soon as it's one of their heroes, the knives come out. Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby, MJ, James Barbour...

On 3/7/2019 at 1:18 AM, kelslamu said:

Why does one person saying that another did NOT molest them negate someone else saying that person did?  Oh, that older lady who was on the jury said the mother of the boy accusing Michael pointed her finger at her.  She said, "Don't point your finger at me, lady!"  They all giggled and she smirked like she just got her 15 minutes of fame.   I wondered about her and the other's capacity to make a court decision after that.  It would be so very hard to say someone abused you without a witness or some sort of audio or visual evidence.  I feel so very bad for those kids.  

Oh my God, I HATED that woman. I well remember her and her tittering, smirky obvious attempt to play to the audience. I fucking HATED her. You know she was hoping to parlay the whole experience into a book or something.

On 3/11/2019 at 10:37 AM, Melina22 said:

That's actually sad. A lot of people went to almost scary lengths to "become" MJ, and suddenly they're about as welcome as Hitler impersonators. I totally understand why people no longer applaud them, but at the same time, I find it rather terrifying nowadays how overnight you can go from celebrated to pariah in front of the entire world. If it's because of evil you perpetrated, you're just reaping what you sowed. But a lot of the time, like with these impersonators, the recipients of all the outrage just seem like collateral damage. It's so extreme. 

Overnight? MJ still has his fans but the general public has been giving him the side-eye for a long time. Anyone who's been putting in time and money to impersonate MJ is a fool.

On 3/22/2019 at 3:07 PM, Melina22 said:

Wow. Looking at a picture of his real face next to the face he ended up with is so shocking. He was unrecognizable. The saddest thing is that his original face was really nice, perfectly attractive. 

He was! Go see him in The Wiz, he was a beautiful man before all the surgeries. Beautiful nose and smile. Before he turned into a living portrait of Dorian Gray.  

On 3/24/2019 at 12:51 AM, Kostgard said:

In other news, You guys, James is okay.

Even though I too walked away from the documentary thinking he looked like a wreck, I’m amused at the idea that Dan Reed has been getting a ton of emails from people all, “Seriously - is he okay? Should someone check on him?”

This is good to hear.

I've been going back and forth about this with a friend of mine, and I texted him: Another thing worth mentioning is that when Thriller came out and before (whenever the grooming and abuse started), we were just coming out of the '70s. And let me tell you, that era was one in which the grownups of the US collectively lost their minds. Children--girls, really--were sexualized to a truly insane degree. Read about Brooke Shields's childhood and early career. Nearly all of her earliest roles were ones where she, a child, was playing a prostitute or simulating sex or even just running around naked, as she did in the screwball comedy Just You and Me, Kid. It's amazing she turned out as normal as she did. Of course there's some famous Roman Polanski case, and he had and has many defenders. Oh, and for another example, have some nightmare fuel:

Love's also had a creepy print ad where a little girl was made up to look like a full-blown woman, again with the tagline about how innocence was soooooo sexy. GROSS.

Anyway, I wonder if on some level MJ wasn't trying to take advantage of that lack of boundaries.

[Kostgard]

1 hour ago, CeeBeeGee said:

I’ve been going back and forth about this with a friend of mine, and I texted him: Another thing worth mentioning is that when Thriller came out and before (whenever the grooming and abuse started), we were just coming out of the '70s. And let me tell you, that era was one in which the grownups of the US collectively lost their minds. Children--girls, really--were sexualized to a truly insane degree. Read about Brooke Shields's childhood and early career. 

I was thinking just the other day how completely effed up the 70s/early 80s were in this regard. Jodie Foster playing a prostitute at 13. Brooke Shields playing a prostitute and appearing nude on screen when she was twelve. TWELVE. It was controversial at the time, but today people would riot.

I was thinking about that because I was thinking about Jennifer Fox’s situation from “The Tale” (also on HBO, based on her experience of being abused at 13 by her 40 year old coach). She actually wrote about her experience for English class, and she said the only note the teacher had for her story was “I know this must be fiction because you are so well-adjusted.” That’s it. No call to the parents, nothing. This was in the 70s.

People just weren’t well-versed in this stuff like they are today (though there is still tons of room for improvement and why I think this film should be required viewing). I especially think that people didn’t think of boys as being potential victims. People looked out for adults who were too fond of little girls, but I don’t think they used the same caution with little boys. I don’t think even MJ could have gotten away with running around in public holding hands with his seven year old victims if those victims were little girls. But because they were boys, a lot of people probably didn’t even think about it.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Kostgard

[MsTree]

13 hours ago, Razzberry said:

and apparently his oldest alleged son has it too.

How do we know this wasn't photo-shopped?  I can think of other skin conditions that show white patches, IF this is legit.

Prince looks like his sperm donor...MJ's dermatologist, who coincidentally employed Debbie Rowe.

[Razzberry]

2 hours ago, MsTree said:

How do we know this wasn't photo-shopped?  I can think of other skin conditions that show white patches, IF this is legit.

Prince looks like his sperm donor...MJ's dermatologist, who coincidentally employed Debbie Rowe.

It very well could be photo-shopped.  Comparing pictures with Jackson's real face before he turned white it seems even clearer that these kids aren't biracial and almost certainly not his biologically.  Yes I've got too much time on my hands.

[kathe5133]

I don't care who donated the egg or where the sperm came from.  His children did not ask to be born, and despite Paris' tabloid and twitter antics, they are not famous and should be left out of this.  They have enough crap to deal with.  They don't need their pictures splashed on the 'net, along with debates on who has vitiligo, or who doesn't, who has Debbie's chin..... etc. 

[Robert Lynch]

11 hours ago, Kostgard said:

I was thinking just the other day how completely effed up the 70s/early 80s were in this regard. Jodie Foster playing a prostitute at 13. Brooke Shields playing a prostitute and appearing nude on screen when she was twelve. TWELVE. It was controversial at the time, but today people would riot.

I was thinking about that because I was thinking about Jennifer Fox’s situation from “The Tale” (also on HBO, based on her experience of being abused at 13 by her 40 year old coach). She actually wrote about her experience for English class, and she said the only note the teacher had for her story was “I know this must be fiction because you are so well-adjusted.” That’s it. No call to the parents, nothing. This was in the 70s.

People just weren’t well-versed in this stuff like they are today (though there is still tons of room for improvement and why I think this film should be required viewing). I especially think that people didn’t think of boys as being potential victims. People looked out for adults who were too fond of little girls, but I don’t think they used the same caution with little boys. I don’t think even MJ could have gotten away with running around in public holding hands with his seven year old victims if those victims were little girls. But because they were boys, a lot of people probably didn’t even think about it.

People forget that MJ was part of Studio 54 in his youth.

[kicksave]

I've watched Part One...I always felt that MJ was a pedophile. His obsession with little boys was obvious. My takeaways from this:

1) Michael wasn't just a pedophile...he was predatory. He groomed his victims and seduced the parents with a lavish lifestyle and the promise of fame and fortune for their child. 

2) No way his family and entourage of handlers, security and housekeepers, etc. did not know what was going on. It was truly horrific that he was allowed to engage in such lascivious acts of sexual rape and abuse with so many young boys and not be reported to the police by the adults that Michael surrounded himself with.

3) The parents of these two men who were spotlighted in this documentary were grossly negligent and turned a blind eye to what they had to have known was going on. Both mothers were stage mothers who put the sons "careers" as child actors/entertainers before their children's safety and the health and well being of their other family members. 

4) It is truly a tragic story for these young men...they were failed by their families and the adults who were supposed to be protecting them. They ignored red flags that were waving boldly early on and chose to allow their sons to be alone with Michael for lengthy periods of time. 

5) I also feel that MJ was probably a victim of child abuse and sexual molestation. It might explain some of his more strange behaviors like the endless cosmetic procedures he had done to his face and of course his abuse of young boys. Most molesters were molested themselves. It does excuse his behavior but rather calls into question who was looking out for his well being when he was coming up in the business as a young boy.

All in all, it is depressing and sad to watch and I only hope that these two men find some peace in their lives.

 

13 hours ago, Razzberry said:

It very well could be photo-shopped.  Comparing pictures with Jackson's real face before he turned white it seems even clearer that these kids aren't biracial and almost certainly not his biologically.  Yes I've got too much time on my hands.

I think it is widely known or at least speculated that MJ had his dentist as the sperm donor for both of the older children and the egg/womb donor was the dentist's assistant at the time. The youngest child has unknown donors but it appears that at least one of the donors has an Hispanic background. 

[wendyg]

Re TAXI DRIVER: I recall reading that Jodie Foster was very carefully managed during the making of that film. From my memory of seeing it, she played a prostitute who rode in Travis's cab; she didn't have sex scenes.

Edited March 26, 2019 by wendyg