S02.E13: The Whirlwind

[ohjoy]

Quote

Frank, Pilgrim, Madani, Russo, Amy, Curt and the Schultz family. No bullet is left unspent as season two comes to an explosive conclusion.

[rogvortex58]

No long goodbyes for Billy. Frank is too vengeful to give him the satisfaction. Or he just wanted to put him out of his misery.

Either way, he finally got closure on his family’s death. He can fully embrace being The Punisher now.

[MisterGlass]

I think Frank had nothing more to say, and he wasn't going to leave unfinished business this time.  When Curt said he wouldn't call the cops, it was obvious who he would call.

For a hot second at the start of this episode I thought they were going to leave Billy, Madani, and the doctor dead.  It would have been a bold choice.

This does leave all the characters without unfinished business.  It could work as a finale.  It's a bit sad that Frank's committed so fully to a destiny of hunting down and killing whoever he sees as a villain.  I recognize that that is the Punisher.  It's just that the end of the first season was a bit more open ended and optimistic, and I liked that.  I even liked the way this season started with Frank not looking for a fight but not backing down from it either.  I like it when he is a little more tethered to humanity through Curt, Karen, and others.

On the whole I enjoyed the season.  There were as usual some things that strained my suspension of disbelief, and I think the pacing, especially with the Amy storyline, didn't quite work.  I would have liked it if the stories were not so interlaced; it felt like they both both dragged out a bit as a result.  I still find Jon Bernthal compelling in this role, though when the focus was on weaker characters it was less engrossing.

I'd like to think that this and Jessica Jones could hold out.

[greekmom]

I am glad they cleaned up all the storylines.  I hate to think it was a series finale but as far as Netflix and Marvel are going, not surprised if they cancel the show.

Loved the dedication to Stan Lee at the end.

Happy that 

Spoiler

Russo is finally dead.

Kept thinking that Krista is the "Vanessa" of the Punisher series

Glad they all got some sort of "happy ending" finish.

[catrice2]

I loved everything except Pilgrim.  I got enough of him on Shooter and it seems as if he was just the same character with a bad accent.  My biggest complaint is Krista surviving twice from the same thing!  I had hoped for a moment that Curtis would go and be with Billy.  No coming back from what he's done, but considering that they all had this "bond" I thought it would be a nice touch that he didn't die alone....but then again I understand that after he shot him once he had no idea if he was sincere or if that was a set up.  My question is...and maybe I missed this...where does Frank get money to live? 

[Taryn74]

Took me until the very end to feel like I had a good grasp on Pilgrim and what makes him tick.  I kept trying to envision all the other churchgoers as members of some strange, violent, religious cult and it just didn't fit.  But then I finally realized that there was no cult, just everyday politics.  At the end of the day, Pilgrim was just an ordinary hit man.  The politician's parents were just smart enough and ruthless enough to realize that they had someone (former Neo Nazi maybe?) desperate enough for personal salvation/redemption from his past, that all they had to do was tell him he was on some special mission from God every time they sent him out to kill someone and/or cover up their tracks, and he would stop at nothing to get it done.  What utterly horrible, evil people.  I'm glad their son ended up being innocent of all of that, as he seemed like a genuinely good person, but also glad he found out what kind of people they really were.  I feel like he would actually try to do what he could to right some of their wrongs.  I'm also glad Frank and the kid ended them before they could corrupt Pilgrim's sons and shape them into whatever they had planned for them.  *shudder*

I'm still not sure how Madani ended up in such a high position in the FBI, she's got about as much natural instinct for reading people as a stuffed goat.

I wish it hadn't have taken the entire season to close out the Billy Russo storyline.  And if they wanted me to feel sorry for him in the end, they failed.  He couldn't remember anything about who he was beyond his childhood and days in the service, and he still turned into a 'the world owes me because of a crappy childhood' glorified street thug?  Cry me a river.

I wish Krista had died.  She was just as much a piece of trash as Billy.

Glad Curtis ended the season okay.  I was truly worried for him a few times.  Mahoney too.

Karen and Frank had a moment.  *inner squeal*  I know Frank is right, they can never really be together, and he's not wrong when he says every time he tries to have "normal" the wrong people get hurt, but still.  They had a moment.  

[MisterGlass]

23 hours ago, catrice2 said:

My question is...and maybe I missed this...where does Frank get money to live?

When he first showed up in Daredevil I thought he was taking money off the villains he killed.  He salvaged some guns from them this season. 

8 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

(former Neo Nazi maybe?)

Definitely, between the tattoo outlines and his line to Curtis that in his past life he would have judged him without speaking to him.

Every time he was on screen, all I could think of was the preacher from the 50s movie "Night of the Hunter."

[Sparger Springs]

I know this is the Punisher, but it was too violent.  I think Frank's face was covered in blood 50% of the time he was on screen. By the time the end rolled around I was hoping they would all be dead.

[Enero]

33 minutes ago, Sparger Springs said:

I know this is the Punisher, but it was too violent.  I think Frank's face was covered in blood 50% of the time he was on screen. By the time the end rolled around I was hoping they would all be dead.

Agreed. Curtis was the only one I was rooting for to make it out alive.

I just finished watching this season, and let me start by saying that was a hot ass mess. There was a LOT of what seemed like unnecessary violence and a LOT of crazy in this season. SMH. I cannot believe this show had such a great first season. IMHO it was the best Marvel series on Netflix, only for them to follow up with a sophomore season that was just short of a disaster.

The Russian/Religious/Senator story was stupid and IMO out of date. I know there are still a lot of people out there who hate the idea of their family members being gay, especially if that family member is an elected conservative senator, I mean what would the world think if they weren’t the conservative they are claiming to be? <Sarcasm> However, to go so far as to kill a bunch of teenagers and put out a $5 million bounty on another teenager to keep the secret…secret, seemed ridiculous in 2019. Maybe in 1960, this would’ve seemed feasible, believable, but not now. This story started, meandered, stopped and meandered some more before thankfully ending. I could see what they were trying to do with the preacher guy, but it didn’t really work for me, nor did the story with Frank’s pseudo daughter.

Though I did find Billy’s initial confusion over who he was, and eventual return to his core nature of a violent, narcissist killer, without regaining his memory, mildly intriguing, overall I found his story boring. And don’t even get me started on the ridiculousness of his relationship with the psychotherapist who needed a psychotherapist herself. They were both insane, thinking they’d be able to run off into the sunset and live happily ever after. I think the writers were attempting to make the storyline deep, but it just came off silly.

Other things that bugged, how was it possible for Billy to be living with his psychotherapist and no one found out about it before episode 12? She should’ve been one of several people the cops had under surveillance, for safety reasons if nothing else, after Billy escaped the hospital. How is it that Billy was able to come and go as he pleased, hang out at the bar etc., while his picture was constantly plastered all over the TV, but no one saw him and was alarmed enough to call the police? I am glad he's dead. Though there was the potential for more story after what happened between him and Frank at the end of S1, the writers completely screwed that potential this season. 

Curtis was the only one whom I felt bad. I’m glad he lived, but I wish he would pack up his sh*t and leave all his psycho military brothers behind to start a new life elsewhere with his boo.

[Racj82]

Unnecessary violence for a Punisher story? No such thing. This is what it should be. This is not the story one is looking for if they are requesting less violence.

[notcreative enough]

How is it that Frank can get beat up and have a million cuts at any given point but none of them leave a scar. Even Madani has a scar now. 

Everytime Billy went on and on about what Frank did to his face I really wanted someone  to say "you don't look that bad bro." Because there is no way that what happened to his face last season and what he looks like what it does now. 

How sad is it that the most upsetting thing for me was watching Curtis get beat up again. 

I'm still confused about the doctor and her serious daddy issues. Why did she get so attached to Billy? Does she have a thing for scars or something? You would think she would try and bone all her patients because they could all be her daddy. I really wanted to see her in an orange jumpsuit but I guess broken in a hospital bed is ok. 

I didnt really care for the kid. After your a little bitch for 3 episodes I'm never really going to warm up to you. 

Lol at Frank telling Curtis he met a good woman but then everything went to shit. You mean the random bartender that you were going to sneak out of her house come morning. Yup super special. 

[Quark]

My goodness. I feel like having blood on you is a prerequisite to being part of the cast on this show.

Russo should have died last season. The Pilgrim guy did not make a compelling villain.

Would have loved to have seen more of Mr and Mrs Schulz, especially Mrs Schulz. They were interesting.

[MisterGlass]

On 1/24/2019 at 11:32 PM, Sparger Springs said:

I know this is the Punisher, but it was too violent.  I think Frank's face was covered in blood 50% of the time he was on screen. By the time the end rolled around I was hoping they would all be dead.

13 hours ago, Racj82 said:

Unnecessary violence for a Punisher story? No such thing. This is what it should be. This is not the story one is looking for if they are requesting less violence.

This was definitely more violent than the first season, and in places I think it was over the top.  For example, in the fight at the Russian gym, Frank had long since won, but kept hitting the guy with the weight.  Or at the end, when Frank was randomly mowing down members of the two gangs with machine guns.  I think the series works best when Frank's violence is more precise, like when the five guys who wanted the bounty followed him into the alley, and he dispatched each of them with a shot in quick succession.  If it's hand to hand, Frank should stop when everyone's incapacitated.  He shouldn't be a sadist.

Edited January 28, 2019 by MisterGlass
Spelling.

[festivus]

I love Frank but the storyline this season was lacking. It's sad that I was more interested in that trailer they were squatting in than anything else. It fascinated me and I couldn't look away. It's like the 70s threw up in there.  I loved it.

 

This season needed more Karen and I'm sad there wasn't because this is probably the end.

[Racj82]

1 hour ago, MisterGlass said:

This was definitely more violent than the first season, and in places I think it was over the top.  For example, in the fight at the Russian gym, Frank had long since won, but kept hitting the guy with the weight.  Or at the end, when Frank was randomly mowing down members of the two gangs with machine guns.  I think the series works best when Frank's violence is more precise, like when the five guys who wanted the bounty followed him into the alley, and he dispatched each of them with a shot in quick succession.  If it's hand to hand, Frank should stop when everyone's incapacitated.  He shouldn't be a sadist.

And the gym scene is by far the most praised scene of the entire of season. If there is anything I've seen people rave about this season it's literally that scene. Which  is why I said this isn't the show for someone thinking it was too violent this season. It's what the majority of people were looking for. The main complaint last season by and large was where is the punishing. So they doubled down and people loved it. It's not something they would want to pull back on.

[Ottis]

I actually liked the ending. For me, the issue was how the season got there. In the middle of this season, there were 3-4 episodes we didn't need. 

One thing I missed ... why did Mr. Schultz shoot himself? Frank gave him a choice, to shoot himself or "live with it." Live with what? That he failed?

I also thought Pilgrim got better at the end. Their mistake was having him go on a bender. Rebecca still could have died while John was on the road. They should have kept Pilgrim clean, with a relentless focus on getting his task done.  Make him a sort of religious Punisher.  Instead, he was basically a typical flawed hit man. with weird personal tendencies.

11 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

If it's hand to hand, Frank should stop when everyone's incapacitated.  He shouldn't be a sadist.

Yeah, I didn't get that, and it takes away from him being a "hero." 

[yourmomiseasy]

15 hours ago, Ottis said:

I actually liked the ending. For me, the issue was how the season got there. In the middle of this season, there were 3-4 episodes we didn't need. 

One thing I missed ... why did Mr. Schultz shoot himself? Frank gave him a choice, to shoot himself or "live with it." Live with what? That he failed?

I also thought Pilgrim got better at the end. Their mistake was having him go on a bender. Rebecca still could have died while John was on the road. They should have kept Pilgrim clean, with a relentless focus on getting his task done.  Make him a sort of religious Punisher.  Instead, he was basically a typical flawed hit man. with weird personal tendencies.

Yeah, I didn't get that, and it takes away from him being a "hero." 

If Schulz didn't shoot himself the tape of him admitting all his wrong doing was going to be made public.

[benteen]

The end of a messy season. 

There was quite a bit I liked, the final scene definitely.  Liked Frank and Amy.  Liked Frank putting down Billy.  The hotel shootout was creative and fun.  Was glad they went the "redemptive route" for Pilgrim (I found the character compelling the more they spent time on him).  But the whole Schultz storyline was underdeveloped as hell (though Annette O'Toole gave it her all) and really should have been developed further.  Was Billy's storyline the more interesting of the two?  Definitely but that should have been left in the past (though I did miss Micro).  All this stuff to prevent the revelation that their son was gay?  Ridiculous.

Quote

I'm still not sure how Madani ended up in such a high position in the FBI, she's got about as much natural instinct for reading people as a stuffed goat.

LOL.  So true.  Madani was an awful Homeland Security agent and I can't imagine her being much better as a CIA officer. 

Krista surviving that fall was stupid (though the fall itself was hilarious)

Despite my issues with Season 2, I'm sorry that this will likely be the end of The Punisher on Netflix.  I think this show is capable of righting the ship like Dardevil did after its second season.  I think the Netflix formula that they cling to has been the bane of many of these Marvel Netflix seasons.

Edited January 29, 2019 by benteen

[Cthulhudrew]

That big shootout between Frank and Pilgrim felt like the Punisher version of a Scooby-Doo chase. Shooting through rooms, running out doors, ending up in opposite sides of the building.

(And didn't Frank run past like three different rooms to reach the one that Pilgrim was in, when he should have been right next door?) 

Then, of course, Amy gets taken hostage. Because... of course.

And Frank tries to stop him, but we know he's just going to get shaken off the car. Stop trying to ruin the hostage taking trope, Frank. You can't defy the writers, don't you know?

Russo shows up at- what?- the villain's version of Claire Temple? 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Cthulhudrew

[benteen]

I guess Madani left off "Fought to the death with an untrained shrink who shits herself when she's near a window" on her resume when she applied for her position at the CIA.

Edited February 1, 2019 by benteen

[Cthulhudrew]

So, lest I be too critical, let me say that this episode had a lot of things I liked:

Russo's end was pitch perfect. Ben Barnes and Jason Moore's phone exchange actually had me feeling a bit of sympathy for Russo, and Frank cutting him off before he could attempt an apology was awesome. I also really enjoyed the interplay of Madani, Curtis, and Mahoney at the crime scene.

The final showdown between Pilgrim and Frank was great. The brutality of their confrontation, their shared respect and emotion over their common thread (children they'd lay their lives down for) was really well done.

Amy and Frank at the hostage exchange, Amy and Frank's goodbye. Both great moments.

And the final sequence with Frank- now fully committed to being the Punisher- that was pure awesome.

Also- not this episode, obviously, but worth mentioning- the first episode of the season was still brilliant, moving, brutal, painful (emotionally) and I will watch again perhaps many times, even if I skip the entire rest of the season. That episode to me was probably one of the single best episodes of the entire Netflix MCU run (top five, certainly).

All the above said, what really undercuts the resonance of this episode- and the entire season- is that they focused on the entirely wrong beats, arcs, moments. Everything above should have been in this final episode, certainly (with the possible exception of Russo) but it should have also had much more buildup. The senator/Russia/Amy/Pilgrim story should have been the "A"-plot the entire season, and not just a sideline.

Amy's casting could have probably been better, but Giorgia Whigham's performance was serviceable enough when she needed to be. What really undercut their story is that Amy and Frank's bond would have meant much more if she hadn't disappeared for long stretches of the season. It's hard to get invested in a father-daughter style relationship when we see so little of them on-screen, and half of that time involves her either lying or him yelling at her. When they were allowed moments (sitting outside the Catholic school, for instance) they were great.

The Pilgrim/Frank confrontations would have been much more impactful if their first scenes together weren't in the very final episode. If we- the audience- and Frank had inklings of Pilgrim's story and past a bit sooner. That last fight was brutal, two unstoppable killing machines- one in the service of good, one in the service of evil- and it was tough to watch. But all the punishment that they took, culminating in that titanic struggle was mostly caused by others, in sequences taking place far from one another, when it should have been largely inflicted by each upon the other, thus demonstrating that the only possible end to their struggle was to cease fighting and go their own ways.

Frank turning fully into the Punisher was great, but it shouldn't have taken the entirety of two seasons to get there.

I really felt (and early on) that the showrunner had an idea at the end of last season that he wanted to tell an epic tale of Russo turning into Jigsaw and Frank evolving into the Punisher as he tried to take down Russo's burgeoning criminal empire. But then it seemed like they decided to go an entire different way (with the blackmail storyline), which is fine, but maybe someone reminded them that- you know what? we've got Ben Barnes and Amber Rose Revah under contract so we'd better find a way to work them in somewhere- and then wedged the Jigsaw storyline back into the mix, only to have it overshadow everything again so that the entire season ended up- not unlike a jigsaw puzzle- a big mixed up patchwork that had a lot of great parts that were washed out by great big blots of variegated shades that had to be pecked and prodded at to make into a whole.

[Anela]

On 1/25/2019 at 12:11 AM, Enero said:

Agreed. Curtis was the only one I was rooting for to make it out alive.

I just finished watching this season, and let me start by saying that was a hot ass mess. There was a LOT of what seemed like unnecessary violence and a LOT of crazy in this season. SMH. I cannot believe this show had such a great first season. IMHO it was the best Marvel series on Netflix, only for them to follow up with a sophomore season that was just short of a disaster.

 

 

Other things that bugged, how was it possible for Billy to be living with his psychotherapist and no one found out about it before episode 12? She should’ve been one of several people the cops had under surveillance, for safety reasons if nothing else, after Billy escaped the hospital. How is it that Billy was able to come and go as he pleased, hang out at the bar etc., while his picture was constantly plastered all over the TV, but no one saw him and was alarmed enough to call the police? I am glad he's dead. Though there was the potential for more story after what happened between him and Frank at the end of S1, the writers completely screwed that potential this season. 

Curtis was the only one whom I felt bad. I’m glad he lived, but I wish he would pack up his sh*t and leave all his psycho military brothers behind to start a new life elsewhere with his boo.

I trimmed your post a bit, but agree with almost everything. I was surprised he let Pilgrim live, but of course, he has children who would be left to grow up alone. 

Also: people saw the therapist walking out of the ward with a tall masked man *really* close behind her. WTF? Did nobody say, "hey, isn't that a little suspicious?" Not just out of the ward, but out of the building. Don't tell me they don't have cameras around a place like that. So many places have security cameras now. 

On 1/21/2019 at 12:49 PM, Taryn74 said:

 

I'm still not sure how Madani ended up in such a high position in the FBI, she's got about as much natural instinct for reading people as a stuffed goat.

I wish it hadn't have taken the entire season to close out the Billy Russo storyline.  And if they wanted me to feel sorry for him in the end, they failed.  He couldn't remember anything about who he was beyond his childhood and days in the service, and he still turned into a 'the world owes me because of a crappy childhood' glorified street thug?  Cry me a river.

I wish Krista had died.  She was just as much a piece of trash as Billy.

Glad Curtis ended the season okay.  I was truly worried for him a few times.  Mahoney too.

Karen and Frank had a moment.  *inner squeal*  I know Frank is right, they can never really be together, and he's not wrong when he says every time he tries to have "normal" the wrong people get hurt, but still.  They had a moment.  

Same. I was thinking that she was going to hate herself for falling for the therapist's BS, and wondering how she got so far in her career. 

I thought Curtis would go to Russo, but I guess he's really learned his lesson now. I wish they would stop beating up on Curtis. I was going to say after the last episode, that he needs to be just fine, and to live a happy life with his girlfriend. He's my favourite, just a great friend (best friend you could have), a great soldier who has done his duty, now leave him alone.

I can't believe the therapist is still alive, but I liked Madani rubbing in that that was Billy's blood all over her. 

I liked the girl, in the end, and didn't like to see her leave. I wonder where she went. I can't remember if she had any family, why she was with that group of kids. 

It was also a bit too violent for me. After watching three episodes last night, I found something a lot lighter to watch. I rarely fast-forward through anything like this, but I did with the final fight between Frank and Pilgrim. I started playing it again when I saw him standing over Pilgrim, just as he begged him to not hurt his children. There was *so much* fighting, so much blood. At least they actually had people look at Frank and react to his face, when he was dressed as the policeman. 

[maddie965]

On 25/01/2019 at 3:11 AM, Enero said:

I just finished watching this season, and let me start by saying that was a hot ass mess. There was a LOT of what seemed like unnecessary violence and a LOT of crazy in this season. SMH. I cannot believe this show had such a great first season. IMHO it was the best Marvel series on Netflix, only for them to follow up with a sophomore season that was just short of a disaster.

ITA. I'm still in shock. Like Cthulhudrew said, it feels feel like they had two stories to tell, and ended up telling none. Maybe, if they had focused on the bond between Frank and Amy, it might have worked for me. They could use that relationship to bring something new and deep and transformative about the character. I mean, the whole first season was based on Frank's relationship with David Lieberman - and it worked like a charm. Here, not so much. The biggest mistake, for me, was the casting of Amy. Georgia Whigham might be a good actress, but she's too old and breezy for the part. They kept referring to her as "kid", but she didn't look like a teenager at all. She looked 22-25 to me. If they wanted a teenager, they should have cast one, and make her a little more intense - then maybe we could believe she was devastated for losing everyone she loved. Also, their relationship was too superficial. So much to explore there: can Castle justify turning a girl into a killer like himself, just to numb down some of the pain he has for losing his biological kids? Can someone without Castle's background and trauma learn to murder people in the same effective way he does? Is that a valid choice?

Anyway, not satisfied at all with this season. Watched episodes 1-6, fast forwarded through 7-10, and then watched the three final episodes, just to see how it ended. What a disappointment. I still love Jon Bernthal, still love the character, still invested in the series. Maybe we can meet again in another life/streaming channel?

Edited February 4, 2019 by maddie965

[thuganomics85]

Hate to say it, but I found this season to be a slog.  These Marvel shows really do have issues with their second seasons (I can't believe I'm saying this, but Iron Fist probably had the best S2.  Granted, it helped that it had nowhere to go but up after S1.)

For me, I think the problem was that both of the main obstacles/antagonists were half-baked, dull, and underwhelming, and the show would have been better off it they just stuck with one.  They either should have killed Russo for good last season and this season be about Pilgrim, the Schultz, and their creepy cult, or they should have just scrapped the idea and focused more on Russo, Dumont, and his army of veterans.  Instead, both ended up boring and uninteresting, and I struggled to care, although I probably slightly preferred the Russo stuff since Ben Barnes has more charisma and presence compared to Josh Stewart.

But at least Russo is done for good now, but surprise!  Dumont somehow survived that preposterous slow-mo fall!  Sure, show.  I'm guessing if this show somehow does come back, they're setting her up as a future villain, but until then, I continue to be pissed that they wasted Floriana Lima with such a dud of a character. 

And then there is Madani, who really was underserved this season.  They were this close to making her a blundering fool.  And she manages to join the CIA, somehow?!  They must be desperate.  

On the flip side, Curtis continues to be solid and I actually grew to enjoy Amy.  That Whigham family is talented!

I guess we'll see if this somehow comes back, but I have to think Netflix killing Daredevil is a sign that none of these shows are getting renewed by them.  But if another streaming service revives it in the future, I certainly hope they get their shit together.

[millennium]

I didn't like the use of "The Rooster" as a theme for Billy Russo.   He's no rooster.   Glad he's dead.   With apologies to T.S. Eliot, "This is how the world ends, not with a bang but ... two bangs."

Why did they need to keep Krista alive?  To what end?  

Some aftermath re: David would have been appreciated.

I expected the show to close with Frank paying a visit to Beth's bar, if only to make sure she was okay, say goodbye and move on.   I thought the final scene was weak, to be honest.   How can you care about him shooting up a bunch of thugs if you don't know why?   And weren't they mostly teenagers?

I hope the show returns.

[benteen]

14 hours ago, maddie965 said:

The biggest mistake, for me, was the casting of Amy. Georgia Whigham might be a good actress, but she's too old and breezy for the part. They kept referring to her as "kid", but she didn't look like a teenager at all. She looked 22-25 to me. If they wanted a teenager, they should have cast one, and make her a little more intense - then maybe we could believe she was devastated for losing everyone she loved.

 

I thought Georgia Whigham was very good and worked well with JB.  But yeah, she absolutely looked nothing like a teenager and that made things confusing.  They never seemed to settle on an age for the character too.  How old was she supposed to be?

It still amazes me that they introduce this new Pilgrim storyline and make the decision to make it and everything involved in it take a backseat to continue beating the dead horse of Season 2 with Billy Russo (who got worse with every episode) and Madani (who got more incompetent with every episode).  It was very repetitive.  How did any of the writers or producers think that was a good idea? 

The Marvel Netflix formula usually works great at first but then they begin to stubbornly cling to it and they make few, if any, adjustments to use a football term.  Daredevil Season 3 being a major exception.

Edited February 5, 2019 by benteen

[Taryn74]

22 minutes ago, benteen said:

I thought Georgia Whigham was very good and worked well with JB.  But yeah, she absolutely looked nothing like a teenager and that made things confusing.  They never seemed to settle on an age for the character too.  How old was she supposed to be?

Agreed on all points.  It was long after hubby and I had finished watching and I had read several posts here that it even clicked with me who "all the dead teenagers in Chicago" were even supposed to be.  I didn't even associate them with her friends who had been killed after taking the photos.  That's how much NOT a teenager Amy looks like, heh.

She kept trying to convince the small town sheriff and his crew that she was 16, and I think at one point he said her "average age" according to all her fake i.d.'s would be 18, so......who knows, really.  I might buy 18 or 19, but even though technically that's still a teenager legally it's an adult, sort of, so it's not any less confusing.  She just looks too much like early 20s to pull off the 'poor inexperienced teen caught up in a bad deal' thing.

 

53 minutes ago, benteen said:

It still amazes me that they introduce this new Pilgrim storyline and make the decision to make it and everything involved in it take a backseat to continue beating the dead horse of Season 2 with Billy Russo (who got worse with every episode) and Madani (who got more incompetent with every episode).  It was very repetitive.

Again, agreed.  Dragging out the Billy Russo thing brought nothing to the storyline, it just weighed it down and left the Pilgrim/Schultz/Amy storyline feeling incomplete and unimportant, and made Madani look utterly incompetent to boot.

[maddie965]

They turned Madani into a cartoon-like villain, complete with the crazy eyes and the dumb obsession for vengeance. SMH.

And yes, it seems like Marvel tends to screw things up in the second season. It's like they are so in love with their success, they feel like their work is done. They just need to rinse and repeat. Then they put together two or three half-assed storylines, create a new villain and/or sidekick, and yay, here's the new season! It was the same with Jessica Jones. We had Trish going bad, Jessica's mother as a monster and Carrie-Anne Moss in a completely separated story. It didn't work.

Here we had blackmail, a new sidekick, the return of a villain and Josh Stewart in an (almost) completely separated story. And again it didn'twork. There was no sense of purpose, no urgency, no engaging relationships. Plus some bad casting decisions and lame dialogue. We deserved better.

Edited February 6, 2019 by maddie965

[Kel Varnsen]

On 1/27/2019 at 9:40 PM, MisterGlass said:

This was definitely more violent than the first season, and in places I think it was over the top. 

Was it that much more violent though? Season 1 had Frank gouging a guys eyes out with his thumbs and they showed it all. 

On 1/29/2019 at 12:40 AM, yourmomiseasy said:

If Schulz didn't shoot himself the tape of him admitting all his wrong doing was going to be made public.

The only thing that bugged me about that is why no one thought of it sooner. Amy could have gone to the Daily Bugle (I mean Bulletin) with her story and the photos in like episode 3 and that would have pretty much killed any threat from the Schultz family. 

On 2/5/2019 at 4:54 AM, millennium said:

I didn't like the use of "The Rooster" as a theme for Billy Russo.  

I liked it although mostly because it is a great song from a great band. Although I am not sure I ever heard that version before, anyone know where it is from.

Overall I thought this episode was a big improvment for the season. The only thing that really bugged me was the Frank-Pilgrim fight. Becuse hasn't that guy had a giant bleeding hole in his side all week? I don't think an opening that big closes on its own, so how is he still standing?

Would have liked to have seen Alexa Davalos again too although I get why they didn't show her.

[MisterGlass]

On 3/9/2019 at 8:48 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

Was it that much more violent though? Season 1 had Frank gouging a guys eyes out with his thumbs and they showed it all. 

My impression was that the first season took breaks in the violence.  There was a burst at the beginning, intermittent bits, and then a burst at the end.  There was time to recover.

[FishyJoe]

I was a bit disappointed in the end scene. I thought he was going after Billy's henchmen since they did seem to get away with their crimes. Instead he went after random gangbangers. 

Also I was hoping we would see Lieberman again, since I thought that was his sidekick and someone that Billy knew. 

[AKA...CJ86]

Russo in the dumpster, that would have been the perfect poetic ending to him. 

[Dobian]

I felt the whole season was kind of disjointed because it was split between the Russo plot and the Pilgrim plot.  Like others have said, it was hard to get a feel for who Pilgrim was and what he was all about until near the end.  I did like character and the performance though.  Russo had an unceremonious demise but I liked it.  How many times have we listened to the bad guy giving the big speech at the end, and Frank was basically STFU I'm putting you down like the rabid dog you are this time.  I really liked Frank's final scene with Amy where he breaks down.  I had a hard time warming up to Amy as a character during the season but she sold it at the end.  Madani bothered me all season.  Season 1 really showed her working within the infrastructure of Homeland Security, but this season she was just this rogue cop out on her own and doing things she shouldn't, while repeatedly being given a get out of jail free card.  Overall I liked the season despite some flaws, and will miss Frank as well as the rest of the Marvel Netflix characters.

Edited May 18, 2019 by Dobian

[rmontro]

On 1/27/2019 at 9:55 PM, festivus said:

This season needed more Karen and I'm sad there wasn't because this is probably the end.

Karen should have stayed on and opened a stand where she sold her old shoes lol.

Frank wants to kill everyone he considers a villain.  And yet Pilgrim can kill numerous people but it's all right as long as he cares about his kids, I guess.  I liked the Pilgrim character though.  I thought he talked kind of like the Godfather.

I liked this season, for what it's worth.  It's probably the end of this series, which is a shame because Jon Bernthal makes a perfect Punisher.  

Edited December 8, 2019 by rmontro

[Raja]

On 12/7/2019 at 3:12 PM, rmontro said:

Karen should have stayed on and opened a stand where she sold her old shoes lol.

Frank wants to kill everyone he considers a villain.  And yet Pilgrim can kill numerous people but it's all right as long as he cares about his kids, I guess.  I liked the Pilgrim character though.  I thought he talked kind of like the Godfather.

I liked this season, for what it's worth.  It's probably the end of this series, which is a shame because Jon Bernthal makes a perfect Punisher.  

I think when he found out Pilgrim's motivation he went from villain to a soldier with a villainous leader to Frank. Unlike the other gangsters he wasn't doing it for his share of drug money  but solely to protect his community that mislead and used him.

It was only after this case that he became the Punisher going after all criminals. For now it was direct vengeance for his family's murderers and trying to protect the kid he attached himself too

Edited December 9, 2019 by Raja

[MisterGlass]

That's a good point.  In the first season Frank found out that he'd followed orders from a villain, and killed the wrong person.