S05.E04: Ruin

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Gordon and Penguin are forced to work together and alliances are shaken when Lucius, Nygma, and Barbara all have different ideas of the culprit behind recent events at Haven. Meanwhile, Selina continues her quest for revenge against Jeremiah.

Promo:

Original air date: 1/24/19

[Chaos Theory]

After all this time Jim and Barbara finally make sense as a couple.  In a Gotham where Zsasz backs down from a fight and Harvey is the voice of reason.  In a Gotham where you believe that violent  narcissist Barbara is trying to keep the people in her club safe.  This is the Jim and Barbara Gordon that makes sense,

[Lantern7]

"Hey, guys! What's up?" Oh, Victor. You magnificent psychopath, you.

More shit hitting the fan, as Oswald teams with Jim to grab Zsasz . . . and then Oswald takes over the desperate mob,holds a kangaroo court session, and comes close to ending Zsasz's life. Via guillotine. Where would a guillotine be found to begin with? Only in Gotham City.

Oh, and it turns out Victor didn't blow up Haven . . . Ed did. Human Ed; I'm hoping the Bulldog survived the blast. Ed has a Memento moment, helps Lucius with the forensics of the rime scene, finds an old lady who might have seen the shooter . . . and it turned out to be Ed. Riddler Ed. Cue one old biddy going from the wheelchair through the window.

And Jeremiah gets stabbed repeatedly by Selina, and he dies. The End. I'm doubting it . . . but how messed-up would it be if it turned out Jeremiah stayed dead, and he didn't turn out to be Joker? This is the final season of Gotham. This show hasn't given a fuck in years. Why start now?

At least Jim decides to go off the deep end and gets intimate with Barbara. Why the fuck out? Drinking his problems away won't help, so why not hook up with perhaps the most mentally unstable woman in the city? You know, the one whose look changes every season? If Jim wants to go into the abyss in the most delightful way, Barbara will be a good guide.

I hope Zsasz comes back. And yeah, I never thought I'd say that when the character (or that version) was introduced.

[festivus]

OMG WHY does Jim care about that city? It's horrible! I'd be out of there so fast your eyeballs would spin.

 

So Jim and Barbara huh? I don't buy it.

[Sakura12]

Is Jim and Babs hooking up how we are going to get Barbara Gordon. Always great seeing Zsasz. So the Riddler blew up Haven and Ed had to kill an old woman in a wheelchair to cover for his alter ego. 

Of course Gotham has a guillotine and probably a bunch of other ancient killing devices, I would expect nothing less. Selina murders Jeremiah so we can be introduced to their triplet Jeremy who may or may not be the Joker. Still no sign of Lee, maybe she's the Joker. 

I did love that Selina just stalked around and murdered Jeremiah without announcing her presence. Much better than most villains. Penguin should take notes. 

[ursula]

Woah, Selina killing Jeremiah was so satisfying.

[scarynikki12]

Victor Zsasz is pure joy. 

Love seeing Ed and Lucius working together and that it was Ed all along. 

Not gonna lie, when Pengy asked the crowd for the verdict, their reaction reminded me of the witch trial in Monty Python. 

Looks like someone just got conceived! 

[HoodlumSheep]

Zsasz!!!!!! It was so good to see him again. It's been too long. 

Mistah J and Puddin dancing & discussing evil plans...classic. Such an iconic duo. It was like I was watching the old cartoons for a minute. 

Doubt jeremiah is dead. Too easy. I'm not fooled.

Jim and babs...meh. I can understand why...but at the same time i wish it would have had a bit more build up. You could tell they were slowly starting to reconcile, but the makeout session (in typical jim gordon fashion) was a bit much too soon imo. 

Glad to see ed and lucius paired up again. They had great scenes last season and it seems like the writers took note of how well they worked together and how much people liked seeing the duo.

Probably the most enjoyable episode so far.

[thuganomics85]

I would ask where in the hell they got the guillotine from, but duh, it's Gotham!

Victor Zsasz!  So glad that my favorite polite psychopath showed back up!  Obviously knew it was a set-up, because while he is, well, a psychopath, blowing up Haven like that isn't his MO.  Still not surprised Oswald tried to pin it on him in order for some revenge/raising his status, but of course Jim wasn't going to let that stand.  But it does look like Oswald accomplished his mission of being more loved by the people now.

Selina actually succeeds at killing Jeremiah?!  Maybe?  Have a feeling this isn't the last of it.  At the very least, I suspect Ecco will still be a problem.

So, the true culprit was Nygma this entire time.  Bet he's going to keep that close to his chest for as long as he can.  Enjoyed him teaming up with Lucius.

At long last, Jim and Barbara can no longer resist their epic hate lust.  Tabitha who, huh?

A brief glimpse of Bruce taking out fools Batman-style!

[Kostgard]

So good to see Zsasz again. It may be the last time we see him, but he went out in Zsasz style. Apparently the “I’d let Alvarez do it. He’s handsome” line was ad-libbed by Anthony Carrigan.

This episode confirmed for me something I’ve been thinking all season - if Jim were smart and not so concerned about playing the lone hero (with his frequent references to westerns in the first two eps), he would have reached out to Babs and Oswald long ago to consolidate resources and work together. Both can be reasoned with, both have some level of affection for Jim and are willing to work with him. Yes, they both would have wanted something in return, and both can get wrapped up in their personal revenge plots, but it would be doable. And with the GCPD resources together with Oswald’s ammo and Barbara’s food, Jim would have been able to help a lot more people and probably wiped out a lot of the lesser criminals and taken up their territory too. No, it’s not ideal, but outside help was not there and if Jim would just stop and realize that honey works better than vinegar with these two, he could manipulate the two of them pretty easily. Well, I guess he figured out the “honey” thing with Barbara, but he decided to prove a point to Oswald by shoving him to the ground. Great job, hero. Push over the little guy with the bum leg. Then challenge the guy known for his deadly accuracy with a gun to a duel because you couldn’t handle the truth he just laid out for you.

Weird continuity issue - at the bar, Barbara is alone with Jim and pours out two drinks...then never offers it to him. 

So Ed’s the one going around with a rocket launcher. I wonder why. Judging from the preview, he blames Oswald, but he likes to put all his shit on Oswald, so that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. Lucius told Ed that word on the street is that he’s dead. I strongly suspect Oswald thinks he’s dead as well (and it’s why he named his dog after him). Strange probably went off books and decided to use his own definition of “fix” when Oswald told him to “fix” Ed and Lee.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Kostgard

[Writing Wrongs]

So is Lee ever coming back? I see Morena's name is still in the credits every week.

9 hours ago, festivus said:

OMG WHY does Jim care about that city? It's horrible! I'd be out of there so fast your eyeballs would spin.

That's what I was thinking. Those people are horrible.

[RandomWatcher]

Count me in on wondering where the hell they got a guillotine 

Is Jeremiah dead? This is Gotham, he's probably only mostly dead.  

[darkestboy]

Nice return of Zsasz, loved his deadpan snarking here and it was obvious that he was going to be the thing that would break Gordon and Oswald's little truce.

Oswald was more interested in getting even with Zsasz than actually finding the Haven bomber.

Edward being the bomber wasn't that shocking but the reveal was done well enough and I did like his team up with Lucius in this one.

Jim and Barbara pairing up, that's gonna result in a certain someone being conceived, right?

No way did Selina actually succeed in killing Jeremiah this week. Nice shades of Joker/Harley with Jeremiah/Ecco in their brief scenes this episode too, 7/10

[seacliffsal]

I loved that we are getting to watch Bruce turn into Batman, but big assistance from Alfred.  The actor's height growth really help sells his turning into Batman.  I know it's never predictable with child actors, but David's height really helps with the story.  I enjoyed Ed and Lucius working together and being smart about figuring out what happened.

This series just goes full tilt and I am so on board.

[Sakura12]

If Sofia Falcone can survive being shot point blank in the head and Jim can survive multiple gun shot wounds, then Jeremiah can survive a couple of stab wounds. This is Gotham even if you die you can be resurrected. Ed, Fish, Butch, Barbara and Lee all died. 

[WritinMan]

45 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

At least she finished the job, hopefully.

Note to Bruce, that is how it is done.  You don't allow killers to come back and kill others.

So, The Riddler used the rocket launcher, interesting.  I don't understand why Ed had no clue what was going on.  Multiple Personality Disorder?

So, a woman sitting in a wheelchair saw The Riddler do the deed.   That kind of reminded me of the old Hitchcock flick "Rear Window" starring Jimmy Stewart, in which he also witnessed a crime.

Barbara is kind of hot in her own whack job sort of way.

Bruce will become Batman, not The Punisher.

[Philbert]

2 hours ago, RandomWatcher said:

Count me in on wondering where the hell they got a guillotine 

Is Jeremiah dead? This is Gotham, he's probably only mostly dead.  

 

He's probably been mostly dead all day...

1 hour ago, WritinMan said:

Bruce will become Batman, not The Punisher.

 

No, we've already got one of those. 

"What are you, some kind of maniac?"-Frank Castle

One's enough.

[Richness]

A guillotine is the *least* of my concerns with this hot mess anachronism of a show. Though Riverdale is doing its best to usurp the title. Good to have the marvelous snarky bastard Zsasz back again, even if the final scene with Jim was just embarrassingly stupid. Saw the Riddle reveal coming the moment Ed and Fox parted company.

While they had some chemistry in the Siren club scene, I'm not looking forward to Jim/Bab's 2.0. Though I guess she's just as good as anyone to be a certain someone's mother if not Lee. Speaking of Lee, Hugo must have left her dead.

 

Nor do I think the Joker is totally dead. I wouldn't be surprised if Harley disposes of his body in a vat of green chemical waste, which magically revives him while disfiguring his face. Though that might be too similar to the Butch/Grundy resurrection. Aw, dammit, now I gave myself the feels for Butch.

[Lantern7]

16 hours ago, RandomWatcher said:

Is Jeremiah dead? This is Gotham, he's probably only mostly dead.  

 

4 minutes ago, Richness said:

Nor do I think the Joker is totally dead. I wouldn't be surprised if Harley disposes of his body in a vat of green chemical waste, which magically revives him while disfiguring his face.

Maybe the guy Selina murdered was Jeremiah's cousin, Jedidiah. I mean, with this series, you can't dismiss the notion outright. Or, fuck it, all of the dead characters are revived as Black Lanterns, and Gotham is "posthumously" inducted into the Arrowverse.

ETA: I hope we get Zsasz back before the end. He's probably the best recurring character after whomever Cameron Monaghan is playing. Yes, he wasn't a directly translation from the canon version, but that guy was creepy. Even with his mouth taped, he was still funny. "Any last words?" "[15-20 seconds of what was probably a meaningful speech]" "Well said!"

Edited January 26, 2019 by Lantern7

[Miss Dee]

8 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Maybe the guy Selina murdered was Jeremiah's cousin, Jedidiah.

Jedidiah, the Amish Joker. His rumspringa kind of went off the rails....

I liked this episode a lot, but not enough Bruce for me. What we got was good though.

Although they set it up in the best way they could, I wish the show hadn't felt the need to set up Barbara Gordon's lineage so strictly to canon. Jim/Babs is still hard to buy.

[tennisgurl]

So I guess now we know how Barbara comes to be! Thanksgiving dinner at the Gordon house is gonna be weird...

If any city in the world still kept guillotines lying around, it would be Gotham. This is the same city that has guys dressed like Civil War veterans standing next to woman in modern mini skirts, and no one sees that as remotely odd. They probably have whole armadas around of old timie weapons and execution methods stockpiled somewhere. I just picture Oswald being like "Its so nice to have a guillotine around in these troubling time..."

Selena stabbing Jeremiah a million times might seem like the end of him, but I wouldn't be too sure. People die and pop back to life all the time on this show. I cracked up when Jeremiah was giggling and cracking himself up, then cleared his throat and tried to make himself sound cool when Echo showed up. Yeah, I think that ship has sailed, buddy. "Lets do like my father did when I was six and SPLIT!" 

I always love seeing Zsasz, and if this is the last we see of him, its a good ending. The most polite and likable psychopathic killer in the world. "Oh, hi guys! Whats up?" "This is a nice table." He was on fire all episode!

The Lucius and Ed team up was fun, especially Ed trying desperately to just pull the files he wants out of Lucius's hands, while he just rolls his eyes. Although, now both Eds are getting darker and darker, and more unpredictable. 

I wonder if we are leading to Gordon realizing that, as much as he wants law and order for Gotham, he cant do it alone, and they need someone in the underworld as well, who plays by his own rules, to keep the criminals and crazies in line. It really does feel like Jim is fighting a losing battle at this point, trying to keep the city running, and maybe he needs someone else. Cue Bruce, kicking ass Batman style, with an assist from Alfred, about ready to start shopping for capes...

Edited January 26, 2019 by tennisgurl

[superloislane]

How many times will we have to see Barbara pointing a gun at Penguin only to not succeed?

I feel bad for the cute little boy Jim bonded with and everything, but unless he was going to be someone important, did we need to waste any more time on him?

No offense to Jim but if you lost your entire family in that explosion, do you really want to hear a hope speech?

Hey Alfred! I really missed you! I love the new vibe with him and Bruce with the cool new signal and everything. I loved seeing Bruce take out a bunch a guys with one hand literally tied behind his back.

"We're sitting ducks" "And one Penguin" - that did make me laugh

Robin Lord Taylor is just such a joy to watch.

Lucius is so cool - "Just...why?" He and Ed are great together.

The Ecco (Harley) and Jeremiah (Joker) dance was iconic.

Zsasz talked about if he had killed all those people he would have covered his body in scars. I know the comic version does but has Gotham's Zsasz ever been shown to make scars when killing people? Am I forgetting a bunch of scenes where he did this?

It was nice seeing Ed back solving crimes rather than committing them and then the reveal came. Why would he possibly do that?

I knew Jim and Babs had to get it on again at some point - they really did love each other before and she's one of the only people who is helping him who is also a hot lady. I wonder if baby Babs will actually come into play this season.

Speaking of, I usually don't care about Lee but it's weird how she hasn't shown up yet. They left her with a cliffhanger and she's nowhere to be seen. They might just bring her back for a quick closure because I'm so sure I saw something about her filming for season 5.

Selina stabbing Jeremiah was so refreshing as she just went and did it! But...

Spoiler

since a promo showed him and Bruce running at each other in what looked like a factory and that hasn't happened yet, I'm guessing he's far from dead.                                        

Edited January 28, 2019 by superloislane

[Kostgard]

2 hours ago, superloislane said:

Zsasz talked about if he had killed all those people he would have covered his body in scars. I know the comic version does but has Gotham's Zsasz ever been shown to make scars when killing people? Am I forgetting a bunch of scenes where he did this?

I think they did it once for his first appearance on the show. So it’s nothing they’ve really focused on.

But they are at least consistent with the GCPD sucking - Ed sneaks right into HQ by putting a blanket over his head and tiptoeing in, and none of the cops bat an eye.

[jhlipton]

I really wish Selina had told Bruce to f*** off.

"Selina, that's enough!"

"No, Bruce, you idiot.  This man has killed dozens if not hundreds of people, and shot me, not you.  And in case yo haven't noticed people don't stay dead in Gotham.  You know what's enough?  Cutting off his head and dissolving in acid until there's not one speck left.  That's enough."

On 1/25/2019 at 7:31 AM, WritinMan said:

Bruce will become Batman, not The Punisher.

Once again, killing a psychotic mass-murderer makes Bruce smart, not "The Punisher".

On 1/25/2019 at 6:46 AM, icemiser69 said:

So, a woman sitting in a wheelchair saw The Riddler do the deed.   That kind of reminded me of the old Hitchcock flick "Rear Window" starring Jimmy Stewart, in which he also witnessed a crime.

So Ed should have dressed like Raymond Burr?

[ursula]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

Once again, killing a psychotic mass-murderer makes Bruce smart, not "The Punisher".

Seriously. It's OK to kill psychotic mass-murderers who have a knack for breaking out of maximum security asylums and resurrecting (so it's not technically a murder since their deaths won't stick). The deaths of every person the Bad Guy kills because the hero didn't finish him off - is the hero's fault. I don't know why "heroes" don't think about this more often. 

[PinkRibbons]

The "Shouldn't Batman just kill Joker?" discussion has been going on since...always. The comics have explored it thoroughly, the Animated Series explored it and no one has ever come up with a perfect answer. Both sides of argument have merit.

[ursula]

1 hour ago, PinkRibbons said:

Both sides of argument have merit.

More like "censors won't let us sell comic books and batman toys to kids unless Batman stopped killing and shooting at the bad guys". 

Edited January 28, 2019 by ursula

[WritinMan]

5 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Once again, killing a psychotic mass-murderer makes Bruce smart, not "The Punisher".

No, it doesn't. Batman operates on the idea that bad guys will get their time in court and serve their time.

Edited January 28, 2019 by WritinMan

[Sakura12]

3 minutes ago, WritinMan said:

No, it doesn't. Batman operates on the idea that bad guys will get their time in court and serve their time.

And does that ever happen? After the 2nd time that way fails and the villain goes on another killing spree, its probably time for a different tactic. 

[WritinMan]

2 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

And does that ever happen? After the 2nd time that way fails and the villain goes on another killing spree, its probably time for a different tactic. 

How else do you think they can keep writing the comics?

The point is to be better than the criminals and set an example of hope for the people of Gotham. If you don't like that, you should probably watch something else or read another comic.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Oh, Zsasz, you magnificently well-mannered assassin, I have missed you! I loved everything about his return, from casually drinking his soda as Penguin's men hailed bullets at the building to all of his one liners. Since it's the final season, I was really afraid the show was going to behead him with that not at all ridiculous guillotine. I'm glad he survived. Just knowing that he's out there makes me happy. His cheerful, "Hi, guys! What's up?" totally cracked me up.

I enjoyed the Lucius/Ed team up and how they gradually became less snarky with each other as their investigation continued (I also loved that Ed's oh so complicated plan for sneaking into GCPD to find that file was to put a blanket over his head and just stroll in).

I know we're supposed to side with Bruce and his "justice means capturing criminals, letting them have their day in court, and then serving a prison sentence," but it was hard to disagree with Selina's method of just stabbing the crap out of Jeremiah. I know in the real world we can't have vigilantes seeking their own form of vengeance, but on tv? I'm okay with Selina preventing any further deaths caused by that psychopath.

[jhlipton]

9 hours ago, ursula said:

Seriously. It's OK to kill psychotic mass-murderers who have a knack for breaking out of maximum security asylums and resurrecting (so it's not technically a murder since their deaths won't stick). The deaths of every person the Bad Guy kills because the hero didn't finish him off - is the hero's fault. I don't know why "heroes" don't think about this more often. 

Same.

4 hours ago, WritinMan said:

No, it doesn't. Batman operates on the idea that bad guys will get their time in court and serve their time.

Then, like I said, he's an idiot.

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I'm okay with Selina preventing any further deaths caused by that psychopath.

See, one of the things that makes this stand is that Bruce is trying to force his values on everyone else (of course when Alfred quietly disposes of someone, or when goons [who've only killed a couple of people] get killed while you're fighting [I'll have to check that he didn't kill any of them], that's OK).  He's an idiot, a hypocrite, and a proselytizer.  

Where the f*** does he get the right to tell Serena not to kill the man who shot her?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

2 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

See, one of the things that makes this stand is that Bruce is trying to force his values on everyone else (of course when Alfred quietly disposes of someone, or when goons [who've only killed a couple of people] get killed while you're fighting [I'll have to check that he didn't kill any of them], that's OK).  He's an idiot, a hypocrite, and a proselytizer.  

Where the f*** does he get the right to tell Serena not to kill the man who shot her?

On top of her personal vengeance, she just saw that Jeremiah is forcing all of these people to dig a huge fucking hole for him and he slashed someone's throat for suggesting that the workers needed some sleep. Yet somehow Bruce thinks that the solution to this is to put him in a jail cell. And I totally agree that Bruce has no issue or guilt when he, Alfred, Jim, or the GCPD kill the bad guys so it's a bit hypocritical for him to think that's okay but Selina killing Jeremiah is not. I know that intent counts (and in the legal sense, Selina's would be considered premeditated since she went there with the sole purpose of killing Jeremiah) but it's not like the GCPD is not trying to kill when they start shooting.

[jhlipton]

@ElectricBoogaloo, exactly.  As for Selina's killing being premeditated, I would just call Jeremiah "Old Yella" (or "Cujo").  It was just the same as putting down a rabid dog.

ETA: Anyone who thinks that Bruce is right must not know about that thing called "war" where you have to KILL your enemy on sight and not"bring them to justice".  Bruce is fighting a war as a conscientious objector, and demanding that certain people (like Selina but not Alfred or Gordon) do so too.

Edited January 29, 2019 by jhlipton

[Danielg342]

No big review, I'm too tired. Just a thought- what if this "No Man's Land" storyline was the start of the series? There certainly would be a base to build years of material from- "the abandoned city seeks its last hope"- of which Bruce Wayne realizes he has to be that hope. I know that, originally, "No Man's Land" was going to be the "reboot" before the series got cancelled- I wonder what might have been if the show did it in S2 or S3 instead of now.

[superloislane]

On 28/1/2019 at 11:07 PM, jhlipton said:

See, one of the things that makes this stand is that Bruce is trying to force his values on everyone else (of course when Alfred quietly disposes of someone, or when goons [who've only killed a couple of people] get killed while you're fighting [I'll have to check that he didn't kill any of them], that's OK).  He's an idiot, a hypocrite, and a proselytizer.  

Where the f*** does he get the right to tell Serena not to kill the man who shot her?

Bruce killed Ra's last season and he completely spiraled because of it, felt immense guilt and it almost destroyed his life and relationships. Why do you think he would want this to happen to Selina especially when he's also worried she's not being herself since the Ivy cure?

Edited February 2, 2019 by superloislane

[rogvortex58]

Did Jim and Barbara just make Batgirl?

[ursula]

3 hours ago, rogvortex58 said:

Did Jim and Barbara just make Batgirl?

I think that we can assume that contraceptives, like everything else in Gotham, is in short supply, and unless Barbara is willing to go under Dr Strange's knife then... 🚼

[jhlipton]

On 2/2/2019 at 8:19 AM, superloislane said:

Bruce killed Ra's last season and he completely spiraled because of it, felt immense guilt and it almost destroyed his life and relationships. Why do you think he would want this to happen to Selina especially when he's also worried she's not being herself since the Ivy cure?

Because Bruce is a moralizing idiot, aided and abetted by Alfred.  Any of Bruce's true friends would have told him to kill Ra's at any chance he got.  But Bruce is "Oh, noes, I killed a psychotic murderer... I'm the worst evah!  Poor me! Boo hoo!!" while anyone who saw Ra's kill a little boy just to spite Bruce would be clapping and cheering.

For Selina, and anyone with a brain, disposing of Ra's, or Jeremiah, or Tetch, is just taking out the trash.

[ursula]

20 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Because Bruce is a moralizing idiot, aided and abetted by Alfred.  Any of Bruce's true friends would have told him to kill Ra's at any chance he got.  But Bruce is "Oh, noes, I killed a psychotic murderer... I'm the worst evah!  Poor me! Boo hoo!!" while anyone who saw Ra's kill a little boy just to spite Bruce would be clapping and cheering.

👌

Awesome summary of awesomeness. Seriously Show, if you're trying to make a case of Life Is Sacred, don't have your hero constantly preserving the life of sociopaths who... mere seconds later... 😬 😬 😬 start murdering Innocents.

(Huh. Apparently you can bold and italics emojis!)

[Camera One]

This episode was more engaging to watch.  Maybe because there was the return of Alfred, Lucius, Ed and Zsasz.  Or maybe it was because there was actually some progression with Penguin and Barbara (and Ed) attempting to work with the Gotham PD.  Though even that needed to be developed more.  Why was Barbara so affected by the explosion that she couldn't shoot the Penguin?  I also have doubts that Penguin cared enough about his people who were killed in the explosion to justify him helping Jim.

I like Ed more as a good guy than a psycho murderer.  His scenes with Lucius were good and his intelligence is refreshing in a show where we have Jim offering to have a gun battle with Zsasz (what the hell was up with that?).  

It was hard to not cheer on Selina stabbing Jeremiah and almost frustrating to see Bruce stop her.  This subplot was saved by having Alfred show up and Selina actually being awesome.

I agree with the above poster who said the Jim/Barbara thing needed more buildup.  It's the final season so this would have been a good start to a redemption arc for her.  If she dies helping the "good" cause, it would make sense that Jim would name the baby after her... I can see a tearjerker for the series finale.  

[Ailianna]

(Very) Late here, but one thing I haven't seen anyone comment really about is the radio traffic between Jim and the mainland.  The opening scene really made me think of Romeo Dallaire's account of his time as the head of the UN peacekeeping force in Rwanda during the genocide, when he would constantly tell the western world how horrible things were, and that he was trying to save lives and that he needed help, but it was ignored and put off and wasn't convenient for those not in the danger zone.  I"m not suggesting the writers were thinking of that, but it really put me in mind of that.

Edited May 27, 2019 by Ailianna

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 2:03 AM, Chaos Theory said:

After all this time Jim and Barbara finally make sense as a couple.  In a Gotham where Zsasz backs down from a fight and Harvey is the voice of reason.  In a Gotham where you believe that violent  narcissist Barbara is trying to keep the people in her club safe.  This is the Jim and Barbara Gordon that makes sense,

Absolutely, Barbara seemed irredeemable but amidst all this chaos she's the voice of reason. And Jim NEEDS her for the first time in forever.  

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 2:13 AM, Lantern7 said:

"Hey, guys! What's up?" Oh, Victor. You magnificent psychopath, you.

More shit hitting the fan, as Oswald teams with Jim to grab Zsasz . . . and then Oswald takes over the desperate mob,holds a kangaroo court session, and comes close to ending Zsasz's life. Via guillotine. Where would a guillotine be found to begin with? Only in Gotham City.

Oh, and it turns out Victor didn't blow up Haven . . . Ed did. Human Ed; I'm hoping the Bulldog survived the blast. Ed has a Memento moment, helps Lucius with the forensics of the rime scene, finds an old lady who might have seen the shooter . . . and it turned out to be Ed. Riddler Ed. Cue one old biddy going from the wheelchair through the window.

And Jeremiah gets stabbed repeatedly by Selina, and he dies. The End. I'm doubting it . . . but how messed-up would it be if it turned out Jeremiah stayed dead, and he didn't turn out to be Joker? This is the final season of Gotham. This show hasn't given a fuck in years. Why start now?

At least Jim decides to go off the deep end and gets intimate with Barbara. Why the fuck out? Drinking his problems away won't help, so why not hook up with perhaps the most mentally unstable woman in the city? You know, the one whose look changes every season? If Jim wants to go into the abyss in the most delightful way, Barbara will be a good guide.

I hope Zsasz comes back. And yeah, I never thought I'd say that when the character (or that version) was introduced.

My theory? The kid is the Joker. Frankly only Hugo Strange/Lazarus juice could bring Jerimiah back after the gutting Selina gave him. I figure the guillotine came from the Gotham museum. 

 You think Barbara is the most mentally unstable woman in Gotham? She's the voice of reason!

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 2:16 AM, festivus said:

OMG WHY does Jim care about that city? It's horrible! I'd be out of there so fast your eyeballs would spin.

So Jim and Barbara huh? I don't buy it.

I don't know, it has some quality women. 

Edited June 3, 2019 by Joe Hellandback

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 2:24 AM, Sakura12 said:

Is Jim and Babs hooking up how we are going to get Barbara Gordon. Always great seeing Zsasz. So the Riddler blew up Haven and Ed had to kill an old woman in a wheelchair to cover for his alter ego. 

Of course Gotham has a guillotine and probably a bunch of other ancient killing devices, I would expect nothing less. Selina murders Jeremiah so we can be introduced to their triplet Jeremy who may or may not be the Joker. Still no sign of Lee, maybe she's the Joker. 

I did love that Selina just stalked around and murdered Jeremiah without announcing her presence. Much better than most villains. Penguin should take notes. 

Yeah, I loved the way he tried to have some last words but she wasn't having any of it. And yes, Jarbara forever!

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 3:07 AM, thuganomics85 said:

I would ask where in the hell they got the guillotine from, but duh, it's Gotham!

Victor Zsasz!  So glad that my favorite polite psychopath showed back up!  Obviously knew it was a set-up, because while he is, well, a psychopath, blowing up Haven like that isn't his MO.  Still not surprised Oswald tried to pin it on him in order for some revenge/raising his status, but of course Jim wasn't going to let that stand.  But it does look like Oswald accomplished his mission of being more loved by the people now.

Selina actually succeeds at killing Jeremiah?!  Maybe?  Have a feeling this isn't the last of it.  At the very least, I suspect Ecco will still be a problem.

So, the true culprit was Nygma this entire time.  Bet he's going to keep that close to his chest for as long as he can.  Enjoyed him teaming up with Lucius.

At long last, Jim and Barbara can no longer resist their epic hate lust.  Tabitha who, huh?

A brief glimpse of Bruce taking out fools Batman-style!

I don't think Barbara forgot Tabs, that was the real deal but she's gone and both she and Jim need someone. Question is does she know Selina is back? Does Selina know that Penguin killed Tabs?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 12:14 PM, Writing Wrongs said:

So is Lee ever coming back? I see Morena's name is still in the credits every week.

That's what I was thinking. Those people are horrible.

People kept flooding to NY/LA in the 70s/80s even when the former was bankrupt and the latter had a serial killer on every corner.  

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 2:38 PM, Sakura12 said:

If Sofia Falcone can survive being shot point blank in the head and Jim can survive multiple gun shot wounds, then Jeremiah can survive a couple of stab wounds. This is Gotham even if you die you can be resurrected. Ed, Fish, Butch, Barbara and Lee all died. 

A couple of stab wounds? I counted, she knifed him 10 times!

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 2:46 PM, icemiser69 said:

At least she finished the job, hopefully.

Note to Bruce, that is how it is done.  You don't allow killers to come back and kill others.

So, The Riddler used the rocket launcher, interesting.  I don't understand why Ed had no clue what was going on.  Multiple Personality Disorder?

So, a woman sitting in a wheelchair saw The Riddler do the deed.   That kind of reminded me of the old Hitchcock flick "Rear Window" starring Jimmy Stewart, in which he also witnessed a crime.

Barbara is kind of hot in her own whack job sort of way.

Barbara is just hot. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 5:06 PM, Philbert said:

He's probably been mostly dead all day...

No, we've already got one of those. 

"What are you, some kind of maniac?"-Frank Castle

One's enough.

I always loved the  Batman/Punisher crossover where Frank catches Joker;

Joker; "I'm really not a well man Mr Castle, I'm sure with some treatment I will be fine" 

Frank; (putting his .45 barrel to the Joker's forehead) "I've got all the therapy you need right here maniac!"

Joker (looking Frank in the eyes and scared for the first time in his life); "You're really going to DO IT!"

At which point Batman unfortunately intervenes.  

[Joe Hellandback]

1. Yeah, SCREW YOU Jerimiah! I don't care about your Killing Joke hat, stab him Selina, stab him good! Look him in the eye and twist the blade hard as you can!

2. The Ecco/Jerimiah scenes were a fantasy for dysfunctional couples everywhere, the Fandomreactions girls practically melted. 

3. You know you'd think they'd have included lock picking in Bruce's training?

4. Lucius and Ed were a great pairing, love to see more of that. 

5. I don't think the kid is dead, we never found a body, maybe he grows up to be the Joker? 

6. The redemption of Barbara Kean, it was a long time coming but I buy it, she's horrified by the chaos and without Tabs and Selina she's alone and needs someone. 

7. Nice to see Victor back, wonder what Manhunter is doing? Nice touch that he's got a gun magazine when Jim tackles him.

8. So why did Ed do what he did? I figure he's being controlled by someone else? Strange? Tetch? Dr Bashir? 

9.  Please tell me this is the end of 'the GCPD has no ammo' trope. 

10. So did 'Edward' die when Haven blew up?

11. Folks are starting to turn to Penguin and you know I don't blame them too much, the rule of law is fine in normal circumstances but these are extreme times. 

12.  Jim is really starting to lose it, even Harvey sees that. In true hard boiled detective fashion time to hit the booze and bang the ex.