S03.E11: Songbird Road, Part One

[debraran]

29 minutes ago, Tosia said:

I agree with both of you.

 I think many of us sometimes see history or tv depictions of history through our contemporary,  more informed and aware eyes. We know (and are fortunate to have more options), and have more acceptance , or less stigma,  about PTSD therapy,  trauma, codependence, addictions, domestic abuse, personality types, toxic parents, and forgiveness issues. 

So we tend to judge/interpret others' actions with our current knowledge. 

They didn't have this knowledge back then.  And even if they did,  intellectual knowledge is often over-ridden by emotional contradictions and a mighty struggle ensues in our psyches......over and over as we seek to reconcile these feelings because.....family. 

Living away from others is a choice made by many vets (still) due to trauma from horrors of war. I love that Nick reached out to Jack. Two brothers who were so close as children . It's incredibly sad that Jack couldn't accept Nick afterwards.

My mom's brother, Chet, my uncle, had PTSD/other undefined issues cuz he served in the Pacific and  survived Pearl Harbor. Mom was wary of him when he visited because mental illness was associated with random violence back then. ..and now, isn't it?  Chet never did anything violent, got married, had kids,  and was ok. Just spacey sometimes.  

My father was interned in slave labor camps, including Dachau, for 5 years during WWII. He was Polish , Catholuc, and blonde, blue eyed. Sone 60,000-100,000 non -Jews were imprisoned, abused  and killed this way.  He never talked about it to us. He did tell his story to Spielberg's Shoah Foundation Video rep for history in 1990. I've  never watched the video. Just can't. Maybe someday.  

I interpret  Jack's dismisaal of Nick as protecting his family.  

I think most people understand the distance but not telling your family they are dead. Did he think they'd run there as children? My husband doesn't see 2 of his brother's because of many past situations, but they were never "dead". Just a period that he doesn't want to return too and still exists. His brother who hasd PTSD and went AWOL for a bit, he would never write off and used to give him rides from his halfway house/army facility for years on weekends so he can get out and shop etc.  His depression wasn't his fault and he had inadequate help with the VA system. I hope to see more layers in characters later in the season.

2 minutes ago, nexxie said:

Yes! I just wish Nicky had blurted out what he needed to say.

He did but Jack said "I don't care" End of story.  His choice but shouldn't have been others.

[nexxie]

5 minutes ago, debraran said:

He did but Jack said "I don't care" End of story.  His choice but shouldn't have been others.

He did try, but I wanted him to say more - I was yelling, “Say it louder!” lol

[debraran]

16 minutes ago, nexxie said:

He did try, but I wanted him to say more - I was yelling, “Say it louder!” lol

I know the writing there was bad and unrealistic. Nicky was broken down but I would have had stronger words knowing this was it. And Jack almost bragging about his pretty wife and kids, I'm good, too bad you aren't, see ya. I agree with Milo, that hard of a heart, when his brother was always a good person, not a long time addict that wore people down. He dropped him so quickly and for so long. No "Beautiful Boy" scenario here.

I think Nicky picked the trailer so he could move around but not being able to afford a nicer one, it got tired looking fast. I hope he can upgrade a bit but at 70, not too much you can do at this point.

I loved how his speech to Kevin came true, to be a better man than I am (as he was visiting his brother) I don't see protection really, from what? He wasn't' a criminal or pedophile. I think as my mom has said before, lies grow so large, you are embarrassed later to tell the truth.

Edited January 26, 2019 by debraran

[nexxie]

3 minutes ago, debraran said:

I know the writing there was bad and unrealistic. Nicky was broken down but I would have had stronger words knowing this was it. And Jack almost bragging about his pretty wife and kids, I'm good, too bad you aren't, see ya. 

I think Nicky picked the trailer so he could move around but not being able to afford a nicer one, it got tired looking fast. I hope he can upgrade a bit but at 70, not too much you can do at this point.

I thought the part about Jack seeing only black and white was interesting - liked how they showed his kids stopping at the same intersection Jack had but turning the other way.

[Ohmo]

55 minutes ago, Tosia said:

I interpret  Jack's dismisaal of Nick as protecting his family.  

I would add Jack was also protecting himself.  He couldn't do the emotional spend anymore.  Nicky was safe.  He was living in a place of his choosing, and he was an adult.

Quote

I'm good, too bad you aren't, see ya.

I disagree.  Jack wasn't bragging.  He made a different choice than Nicky.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Ohmo

[ShadowFacts]

29 minutes ago, Tosia said:

I interpret  Jack's dismisaal of Nick as protecting his family.  

And himself.  He had post-Vietnam trauma, too, notwithstanding the neighbor lady's comment that at least he wasn't screwed up.  He was.  He hid it and appeared to function normally, but we know that he went out and gambled with shady underworld types, then planned a robbery.  And of course the years of trying to block out the memories.  He couldn't face talking about what happened with the little boy, but it wasn't gone from his head.  Nicky also wasn't gone from his head, he kept those postcards when he could have easily pitched them.  He went out to the hidden box with his Vietnam picture.  I think distance from that living, breathing reminder of the tragedy made sense, but complete desertion ultimately failed.  He resisted any encouragement by Rebecca to get help until the kids were teens and she made it clear he needed to, and that must have been 25 years later.   I understand people in real life distancing themselves from toxic people, but here Nicky wasn't doing anything more than sending post cards asking to meet.  He knew where he lived and worked, but didn't call or appear.  And when told no more contact, it looks like he respected that, since he didn't even know Jack died years earlier.  So it wasn't a 'I can't stand to be around you and your crap' situation, it was foreclosing any possibility of understanding, that might have helped Jack himself.  Heartbreaking for both of them. 

[debraran]

5 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

I would add Jack was also protecting himself.  He couldn't do the emotional spend anymore.  Nicky was safe.  He was living in a place of his choosing, and he was an adult.

I disagree.  Jack wasn't bragging.  He made a different choice than Nicky.

 

I realize that but his tone sounded that way to me. Nicky worried all those years he hurt him and he didn't. If he was a cold human being, he wouldn't care. He loved Jack and that dynamic was gone. I hope he got some help, we will see, but the VA isn't known for the best care in mental health. Without his family's help, my husband's brother never would be where he is now, still not 100% but not on the street. The help he got was beyond sub-par.

Edited January 26, 2019 by debraran

[Ohmo]

I think Nicky did care, and I also think Jack cared for Nicky, but people are not unlimited vessals.  To Nicky (and to the outside world), Nicky was "just" asking for 5 minutes, but that just wasn't a "just" for Jack.  He had reached his breaking point, and he gets to determine that, not Nicky.  Nicky telling Jack was about what Nicky wanted and what Nicky needed.  In that moment, Jack was telling him, "I can't do this."  At that time, Jack knew that Nicky was capable enough to take care of himself.  Maybe not in the way that Jack would have done it, but Nicky got to choose for Nicky and Jack chose for Jack.

I do agree that Jack being who he was would have probably tried to reach out again later in life had he survived.  He just needed more time.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Ohmo

[MsChicklet]

55 minutes ago, Tosia said:

I interpret  Jack's dismisaal of Nick as protecting his family.  

Good point. It's an extension of the self-protection element of Jack's cutting himself off from Nicky. This was the family that Jack was willing to go groveling to his rotten, abusive father for in order to provide them a home. This was the family for whom he gave up his dreams of starting his own business. This was the family who gave him unconditional love, and a place he belonged. 

The last time (we know of) that he saw Nicky, Nicky was strung out and had just killed an innocent kid. It makes Kevin's drunken joyride with Tess look like wacky hijinks. Jack wouldn't want someone that messed up, that reckless, near the family he put his life into making. Jack felt, right or wrong, it was an either-or choice between Nicky and the life/family he had now. 

[Blakeston]

15 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

In the case of Nicky, he's an addict and anyone who has had an addict in their life knows what a struggle it can be for the addict as well as everyone around them. As much as you can love an addict, that doesn't mean you are responsible for them. It doesn't mean that you are obligated to stay by their side to witness it all or try to convince them to get clean. As the saying goes, you can't help someone who doesn't want to help themselves. Putting yourself in a position where you personally feel responsible for someone else's sobriety is only going to break your heart repeatedly. I think Jack finally hit that wall after he saw that kid die and gave himself permission not to be responsible for Nicky's well being anymore.

If it turns out that he stayed in touch with Nicky after the war, and he saw that Nicky was incapable of ever getting clean, even with lots of support, then this will be my take on the issue.

But if Jack disowned Nicky after the accident, without any further involvement in Nicky's life, then he never gave Nicky a halfway decent chance to get clean. From what we saw, Jack had only dealt with Nicky's addiction for two weeks.

I think it would be extraordinarily harsh for Jack to decide that Nicky is incapable of helping himself based solely on how Nicky behaved in a war zone, when he was having massive mental health problems.

[Tosia]

57 minutes ago, debraran said:

I think most people understand the distance but not telling your family they are dead. Did he think they'd run there as children? My husband doesn't see 2 of his brother's because of many past situations, but they were never "dead". Just a period that he doesn't want to return too and still exists. His brother who hasd PTSD and went AWOL for a bit, he would never write off and used to give him rides from his halfway house/army facility for years on weekends so he can get out and shop etc.  His depression wasn't his fault and he had inadequate help with the VA system. I hope to see more layers in characters later in the season.

He did but Jack said "I don't care" End of story.  His choice but shouldn't have been others.

I disagree, because:

This was the 60's-70's, when traditional men saw themselves as the head the family,  protector,  final word, etc.....  yes, women worked outside the home and we're heads of households,  single parents,  but in not this story.

It was also Jack's family,  so he had ownership, not Rebecca. His choice, totally--again, given the times, traditional roles, and misunderstanding of addiction, PTSD, etc..... treating kids like equals in a family dynamic was not a thing yet. (Not healthy, either, IMHO, ).

Jack did not want to talk about the war. Many vets and civilians in war just don't.  I respect their reticence,  as frustrating as it is for their loved ones who want to understand and help. 

Jack's kids were kids.  No way he would have told them at a young age.   Too many q's, bringing up the past, and lack of understanding. Jack would have had to tell them that he wasn't going to talk about Nick anymore.  PERIOD.  They would have not understood and been hurt at Dad's reaction.

Maybe he might have yold them,   when they were older,  but that's not this story, is it?    

Everyone's different. 

Edited January 26, 2019 by Tosia

[doodlebug]

1 minute ago, Blakeston said:

If it turns out that he stayed in touch with Nicky after the war, and he saw that Nicky was incapable of ever getting clean, even with lots of support, then this will be my take on the issue.

But if Jack disowned Nicky after the accident, without any further involvement in Nicky's life, then he never gave Nicky a halfway decent chance to get clean. From what we saw, Jack had only dealt with Nicky's addiction for two weeks.

I think it would be extraordinarily harsh for Jack to decide that Nicky is incapable of helping himself based solely on how Nicky behaved in a war zone, when he was having massive mental health problems.

As far as I am concerned, Jack could decide for himself where he wanted to draw the line with his brother and to choose to not have him in his life.  What he had no right to do was to lie about his brother's existence to his wife and children (or anyone else for that matter).  I don't know many families where everyone speaks to everyone else at all times, estrangements happen.  My mother had a brother to whom she was not close.  They exchanged Christmas cards occasionally, but they had no other contact although both of them were in contact with their other 2 siblings and visited them.  I never met him until my mother's other brother died and he was at the wake when I was 25. He's got 4 kids I've never met and I don't expect I ever will. I have no idea if his widow is still alive.  I never saw him again, either.  But, my mother never pretended he was dead.  She told us she wasn't close to her brother and his wife and they didn't see each other.  The end.  There is no rationalization for what Jack did when he told others his brother had died in Viet Nam.  Maybe it was part of his own PTSD post war, but, at some point, he should've told them the truth.

[Tosia]

Everyone deals with issues differently.

Their family,  their choice.

 I might not agree, but it's their call.

It's not for me to judge them right or wrong.  

We don't know the whole story. 

[ShadowFacts]

41 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

I do agree that Jack being who he was would have probably tried to reach out again later in life had he survived.  He just needed more time.

I have doubts that he would have.  He had already had 20 years when he went to the trailer, and about 6 ? or so more years after that and before he died.  He still hadn't told Rebecca, nor to our knowledge anybody except (total speculation)  maybe somebody within AA.  He might have been working up the courage to come clean via the program, but I think he would have been blocked by the fear of the explosive nature of that secret coming out.  Same way Rebecca probably couldn't admit knowing William from the beginning, after so many years had gone by.  It takes a lot of fortitude to reveal you have been keeping such a secret for decades. 

[CrystalBlue]

I can see both sides of this issue and everyone's mileage may vary.  What is black and white is dead and alive.  Being afraid of having to answer questions when you can very well verbally shut down the discussion is a bad excuse to declare a person dead.  Perhaps this was Jack's only way of coping with his own PTSD and Nicky's serious mental health issues, addiction to drugs in the war, and the boat incident.  I can't wait for Part Two!

[lucindabelle]

21 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

Many times the showrunners will tell the actor(s) what they want them to think, so when Milo played Jack as if Nicky really were dead, he, the actor, may have thought that was the storyline.  Also, as other posters have said, we don't know if the show started out knowing Nicky would end up really being alive.

I understand that but that’s my point !! An actor is playing a character according to a biography they invent and with emotional truth. When a writer retrofits it it makes the scene they played in the past FALSE.

the fact that MILO didn’t know this meant he couldn’t play it which means there would literally be no difference in a jack talking about a beloved brother who died and a Jack talking about a brother he knows for a fact is still alive.

 

this is not only really impossible it asks us to believe that on top of everything else Jack is one hell of an actor. 

And we do know that the decision was made recently based inn milos interview.

[debraran]

7 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

I understand that but that’s my point !! An actor is playing a character according to a biography they invent and with emotional truth. When a writer retrofits it it makes the scene they played in the past FALSE.

the fact that MILO didn’t know this meant he couldn’t play it which means there would literally be no difference in a jack talking about a beloved brother who died and a Jack talking about a brother he knows for a fact is still alive.

 

this is not only really impossible it asks us to believe that on top of everything else Jack is one hell of an actor. 

And we do know that the decision was made recently based inn milos interview.

From what I read in an interview with "Nicky" was he knew since he was hired what was going to happen and Milo but it was a secret. They wanted people to think he died on the boat and maybe someone else. Many fans thought the guy helping Kevin, who had a limp (I don't remember it that well) was maybe the kid Jack helped. A stretch but maybe with so many twists, the mind works that way. Or the actor had it anyway or it will come up later.  : )

I felt Milo knew but how it was written was harsh. Having him look at his picture seemed like a mix of emotions that day in garage. I know though the longer you lie about something, it's hard to tell the truth. Back in my mom's day, they didn't tell many children they were adopted until later and some never did. Father's who existed but in jail, easier to say he died. Today that would be much harder. It's always hard to choose what to do, the length time doesn't usually make it easier. Since Jack didn't know what Nicky was doing except for various post cards, no reason to think he was still on drugs, he chose not to check until later. His choice but I feel a lie that just got to hard in his "perfect" mind to correct. When he told Kevin that speech before he left, before he knew,. deep inside, the writers make him know it wasn't right. I feel for him, it was just too late but of course, it never is. Nicky was far away not in town, he was still sensitive, he would never barge in their home. I think he thought Jack left his job and looked up address as a last resort.

Edited January 27, 2019 by debraran

[Pallas]

On 1/25/2019 at 8:05 PM, MsChicklet said:

There may be more to the rift than what we've seen so far. There may have been repercussions for Jack from the Army. There may have been a revenge attack on his platoon. 

True: it's a two-part episode, with a half-season of set-up coming earlier.

In the village, Nick was already notorious as the dope addict medic who loathed the people he lived among, liked to mime shooting passers-by, and wouldn't treat the infected foot of the child later blown to pieces by munitions that he stole. There's the circumstances of the war: civilians with the greatest stake in the outcome, who had countrymen and sometimes family members with three of the four major armed forces. There was also Jack's trip back to his squad with Bao, who lived in the area and may even be the father of the child who was killed, or, the father of the man who spoke with Kevin about his father in the Viet Cong. And the circumstances in which Hien, the mother, takes the necklace from the body of an American soldier and later gives it to Jack. We'll see consequences in-country, and perhaps beyond.

[chitowngirl]

From the few scenes where Jack has discussed Nicky, did he ever say his brother died or did he say he lost his brother there?

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, chitowngirl said:

From the few scenes where Jack has discussed Nicky, did he ever say his brother died or did he say he lost his brother there?

I can't point to the episodes right now, but I'm pretty sure he used the words dead and died, to Rebecca and I believe to Kevin and Randall when they were teens and learning to drive and treating each other poorly.  He allowed Randall to think so when they were at the memorial wall and he said he didn't want to look for his name because it was too sad. 

[Ohmo]

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

True: it's a two-part episode, with a half-season of set-up coming earlier.

In the village, Nick was already notorious as the dope addict medic who loathed the people he lived among, liked to mime shooting passers-by, and wouldn't treat the infected foot of the child later blown to pieces by munitions that he stole. There's the circumstances of the war: civilians with the greatest stake in the outcome, who had countrymen and sometimes family members with three of the four major armed forces. There was also Jack's trip back to his squad with Bao, who lived in the area and may even be the father of the child who was killed, or, the man who spoke with Kevin about his father in the Viet Cong. And the circumstances in which Hien, the mother, takes the necklace from the body of an American soldier and later gives it to Jack. We'll see consequences in-country, and perhaps beyond.

As much as I'm not a fan of Nicky, even I don't think it was intentional.  However, the level of recklessness was off the charts.  That's why Nicky's intentions don't make a difference to me, and I can see them not making a difference to Jack.   Even as an accident, Nicky's actions were reprehensible.  I don't know that soldiers actually fished using live grenades, but even if that were an actual thing, that was an activity for adults.  You don't knowingly take a young child out on a boat with live munitions.  I also agree that there could be additional repercussions, like the village turning on Jack and his men as a result of what Nicky did.

43 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I can't point to the episodes right now, but I'm pretty sure he used the words dead and died, to Rebecca and I believe to Kevin and Randall when they were teens and learning to drive and treating each other poorly.  He allowed Randall to think so when they were at the memorial wall and he said he didn't want to look for his name because it was too sad. 

I don't know about the instances with the kids, but Jack did use "dead/died" on the first date with Rebecca at the carnival/fair.

Edited January 27, 2019 by Ohmo

[Emily Thrace]

On 22/01/2019 at 9:46 PM, debraran said:

I agree, Kevin shined in this one. I think Nicky can help him grow a little more and not see his Dad as such a hero but with deep faults. Nicky was under the influence and not reacting normally. Any addict knows whether it's drugs or drink, you aren't yourself. Add the war component and Jack, was not understanding, even many years later. Too bad a therapist didn't help but then the story would be different. Imagine dying and your brother doesn't even know. Imagine living knowing you killed a child (as many do in life) and never getting help. What a weight to bear alone.

That's thing though I'm not sure Jack really understood addiction the way we do now. For Jack's generation addiction was a moral failing, something you failed to control not a disease.  I think even having struggled himself he still didn't quite understand it at that point. When Jack quit drinking the first time he just stopped. It took some will power but that was about it. I think Jack sees Nicky's drug addiction as a weakness on Nicky's part another failure in a long chain of lifelong screw ups. I think Jack doesn't see Nicky here as someone who needs help but rather someone who needs to help themselves first. I think if Nicky had been sober when Jack had showed up it would have been a different conversation. 

I also think Jack is projecting a lot of their father onto Nicky. Given the family history and their father being a violent drunk I can see Jack not wanting a drunk male Pearson around his kids. I think Jack almost doesn't see Nicky in that trailer but his father and that coloured a lot of his reactions. 

[kili]

Quote

I don't know that soldiers actually fished using live grenades, but even if that were an actual thing, that was an activity for adults.  

I don't know if soldiers did that during the Vietnam war, but fishing with explosives is definitely something that is done. Usually, they use dynamite or home-made explosive. It's extremely dangerous and does a lot of damage to fish habitats, especially coral reefs. It also results in a lot of dead sea animals.

Here is a little National Geographic video on the damage that it causes. Blast fishing is something they are also trying to stop in Vietnam and elsewhere.

[hookedontv]

I haven’t read all the comments yet, but I’ll focus on some Specific moments:

I’ve been disliking Randall lately but in this episode, I felt the old Randall was back at least for one episode. When I was interviewing for jobs several months ago, I could have used the Randall Pep Talk (take 2, of course.) And the crack about the uncle hunting pants-subtle and hysterical. 

The little girls throwing shade on their dad while making cookies was priceless. Those kids know what’s up. 

I like that the continence store “Bob’s Place” is a literal crossroad for the Pearson family across decades. The flashbacks with Jack talking to Kevin about sons correcting their fathers’ mistakes, and Kevin taking a few moments to decide-it was really well done. 

Griffin Dunne did an excellent job as older Nicky, both looks wise and the emotions he conveyed. 

I have always liked Miguel but can’t stand how they seem to age him by tossing some baby powder onto his hair. 

Kate-still selfish. I know she supposedly went to support Kevin, but she’s selfish because she is having a very high risk pregnancy and all that travel and additional stress-not good at all. But Kate does what Kate wants, regardless of her kid or Toby. She will probably end up losing the baby at some point and will lash out at her family for causing it. 

Thats all for now...

[GodsBeloved]

4 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I can't point to the episodes right now, but I'm pretty sure he used the words dead and died, to Rebecca and I believe to Kevin and Randall when they were teens and learning to drive and treating each other poorly.  He allowed Randall to think so when they were at the memorial wall and he said he didn't want to look for his name because it was too sad. 

Yes Jack specifically told Rebecca he had a brother, he died in the war. It was in the season premiere when they were at the fair.

[lucindabelle]

2 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

That's thing though I'm not sure Jack really understood addiction the way we do now. For Jack's generation addiction was a moral failing, something you failed to control not a disease.  I think even having struggled himself he still didn't quite understand it at that point. When Jack quit drinking the first time he just stopped. It took some will power but that was about it. I think Jack sees Nicky's drug addiction as a weakness on Nicky's part another failure in a long chain of lifelong screw ups. I think Jack doesn't see Nicky here as someone who needs help but rather someone who needs to help themselves first. I think if Nicky had been sober when Jack had showed up it would have been a different conversation. 

I also think Jack is projecting a lot of their father onto Nicky. Given the family history and their father being a violent drunk I can see Jack not wanting a drunk male Pearson around his kids. I think Jack almost doesn't see Nicky in that trailer but his father and that coloured a lot of his reactions. 

The 60s generation absolutely did not see drug addiction that way. There had been a lot of tragedy, and certainly by 1992 that was pretty old news. Hell, I was out of college by 1992 and that just wasn't the current thinking. It's not as if drugs only became understood in the past 20 years.

Just like now, people see addiction differently depending on who they are. I grew up in the 1970s and I can assure you I was well aware it was something sad well before the time I got out of high school.

What makes you think Nicky wasn't sober?

And even if he weren't, Jack, of all people should understand. I agree with others who say it's one thing to want no contact, another thing to tell everyone someone is dead.

[Ohmo]

5 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Just like now, people see addiction differently depending on who they are. I grew up in the 1970s and I can assure you I was well aware it was something sad well before the time I got out of high school.

Addiction is a disease.  However, there is a difference between an explanation and an excuse, and addiction cannot be an excuse when harm comes to another person as a result of that addiction.  If Nicky's addiction had spiraled out of control and only affected him, then yes, I'd have more empathy for him.  However, his actions (no matter what the intent behind them was at the time) cost a child his life.  No matter how broken or miserable Nicky is, he's still breathing and is now 70 years old.   That little boy barely made it to 7 (if that), and that is where I think Jack's "what did you do" came from.  Not "I think you intentionally killed him" but "your actions cost someone (else) his life and that matters."  Poor little boy, not poor Nicky.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Ohmo

[doodlebug]

2 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

Addiction is a disease.  However, there is a difference between an explanation and an excuse, and addiction cannot be an excuse when harm comes to another person as a result of that addiction.  If Nicky's addiction had spiraled out of control and only affected him, then yes, I'd have more empathy for him.  However, his actions (no matter what the intent behind them was at the time) cost a child his life.  No matter how broken or miserable Nicky is, he's still breathing and is now70 years old.   That little boy barely made it to 7 (if that), and that is where I think Jack's "what did you do" came from.  Not "I think you intentionally killed him" but "your actions cost someone (else) their life and that matters."  Poor little boy, not poor Nicky.

Of course, just as an epileptic who goes off their meds and has a seizure while driving still has to take responsibility for the harm caused to others; Nicky was responsible for what happened to that kid whether he was high or not and Jack was not wrong to hold him responsible even if he understood the ins and outs of substance abuse.

I grew up in the 60's and 70's; was entering high school at the time Jack and Nicky were in Viet Nam.  We were being told even back then in the dark ages that substance abuse was a disease and not a moral failing.  This was not news back then, perhaps some older people were skeptical of the information, but it was definitely out there even back when I was a kid and the dinosaurs roamed the earth.  Jack, being young and a contemporary of many who got caught up in drug and alcohol abuse, should've known this information and been pretty accepting of it.

[ShadowFacts]

4 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

I think Jack sees Nicky's drug addiction as a weakness on Nicky's part another failure in a long chain of lifelong screw ups.

I didn't see that. Nicky wasn't shown to be a lifelong screw up.  A science nerd who wanted to be a doctor, couldn't kill a spider, ultimately would not run away from the draft. Jack knew a sweet kid, and for 2 or 3 weeks a drug addict in a war zone. I don't know if Jack sees drug addiction as a failure, or a family trait or what, but I just don't know where the lifelong screwing up comes in. He wouldn't have known what had happened with Nicky in the 20+ years he refused contact. 

 

9 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

No matter how broken or miserable he is, he's still breathing and is now70 years old.   That little boy barely made it to 7 (if that), and that is where I think Jack's "what did you do" came from.  Not "I think you intentionally killed him" but "your actions cost someone (else) their life and that matters."  Poor little boy, not poor Nicky.

For me, it's both -- poor baby (I took him to be 3 or 4) and poor Nicky. Obviously it would have been better if he only blew himself up, but that doesn't mean he deserves no empathy from his brother, ever, for the rest of his life. There's some moral and emotional complexity there that black-and-white Jack couldn't handle.  Nick obviously knew instantly that the dead boy mattered. He was catatonic. He is now suicidal. He can never make it right or change it. I don't see that he dodged responsibility or used addiction as an excuse. I think he fully blames himself.

[DebbieM4]

On 1/26/2019 at 12:10 AM, lucindabelle said:

 

 

i get how one could decide family is an accident of birth but it just isn’t true that Nicky had been a mess for years. Jack abandoned him when he was trouble and never looked back.

 

 

I agree with your entire post, but especially this.  They were very close as brothers, and Nicky was a sweet kid, so sensitive and without malice that he wouldn't kill a spider (according to Jack himself, just a very short time prior to this incident).   Nicky wasn't mean, he wasn't an addict, he wasn't irresponsible.  And then a couple of weeks in a war zone was more than he could handle so he turned to drugs.

 I know someone who was in and out of various rehabs for years - lying to his family, using again, lather, rinse, repeat.  Eventually his family was advised to take a step back.  Their involvement  was taking too much of a toll on them.  Totally understandable.  But that's not this situation.  This wasn't years of dealing with an addict or picking up the pieces of someone who didn't want help.  This was, from what we've seen so far, a kid who had been trying to cope in a war zone and had been struggling badly - for just the last couple of weeks.   So at this point I see it too as Jack abandoning him when he was in trouble.

On 1/26/2019 at 11:51 AM, Blakeston said:

If it turns out that he stayed in touch with Nicky after the war, and he saw that Nicky was incapable of ever getting clean, even with lots of support, then this will be my take on the issue.

But if Jack disowned Nicky after the accident, without any further involvement in Nicky's life, then he never gave Nicky a halfway decent chance to get clean. From what we saw, Jack had only dealt with Nicky's addiction for two weeks.

I think it would be extraordinarily harsh for Jack to decide that Nicky is incapable of helping himself based solely on how Nicky behaved in a war zone, when he was having massive mental health problems.

Agreed.  I hope we see that Jack didn't simply turn his back on Nicky right after the accident.  I do think, though, that it would be unlikely Jack had seen Nicky through any kind of effort to get clean and still never had heard Nicky's tale of the events of that day.   It seemed from this episode that it was the first chance Nicky had to tell Jack what he had been wanting to tell him all those years.  But I guess we'll see how it plays out.

On 1/26/2019 at 3:35 PM, CrystalBlue said:

I can see both sides of this issue and everyone's mileage may vary.  What is black and white is dead and alive.  Being afraid of having to answer questions when you can very well verbally shut down the discussion is a bad excuse to declare a person dead.  Perhaps this was Jack's only way of coping with his own PTSD and Nicky's serious mental health issues, addiction to drugs in the war, and the boat incident.  I can't wait for Part Two!

I think lying about someone's death is a terrible thing to do.  My grandfather didn't speak to one of his brothers.  None of us ever met him, and my grandfather refused to discuss the situation.  So he didn't.  He never said his brother had died.   He didn't have to because he was firm that it was a closed subject.  Not to be questioned and not to be discussed.  I think being afraid of having to answer questions is cowardly and selfish, and not an excuse to lie about whether someone is alive or dead.

Especially in this case if (and we don't yet know) Jack told his parents that Nicky had died.  I don't care how bad his own PTSD was or anything else.  Letting a parent believe that their child is dead when he is not is truly awful.  Jack's poor mother had already been thru so much.  If he actually lied to her about this, I would find no excuse acceptable.

Edited January 28, 2019 by DebbieM4

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 1/25/2019 at 1:53 PM, icemiser69 said:

The "big 3" tend to act first and think second, if they think at all.   In this situation, I give Randall credit, he usually dives head first in everything he does.  He was the one that wanted to proceed with caution.  He was the one that feared that Nicky might slam t

I don't think Randall cares all that much. William had been the family he was seeking. As much as he certainly considered Jack to be his true father, he doesn't seem particularly excited about the prospect of having an uncle. Kevin seems to need this connection the most. Normally,  Kate might feel similarly,  but she has the baby coming, and she's mentioned that he will be a connection to Jack.

[Driad]

Wondering why they chose Songbird Road as Nicky's address.  The name sounds cheerful but the story is not.  Maybe it is deeply symbolic in some way?

[lilmarysunshine]

On 1/25/2019 at 5:17 PM, Dminches said:

Agree.

Plus, he is the ONLY Pearson who currently has a job (or at least has had a job).  Do any of the others work?  How do they pay for their lives?

I was wondering that, too, especially with Kate. Not many people can afford to hop on a plane last minute to go find a "dead" uncle. How do she and Toby afford their lifestyle?  What is it that he does? Did I miss that? She does not seem to work much and they have a decent apartment in L.A. They did IVF, which is also very expensive but I know covered in California by insurance.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

16 hours ago, Pallas said:

 And the circumstances in which Hien, the mother, takes the necklace from the body of an American soldier and later gives it to Jack. We'll see consequences in-country, and perhaps beyond.

Small correction: the American soldier who purchased the necklace to give to a Vietnamese woman left it on the bar when he saw the woman with another American.  A Vietnamese man then put on the abandoned necklace. His is the body from which Hien took the necklace for herself. 

[JudyObscure]

11 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Obviously it would have been better if he only blew himself up, but that doesn't mean he deserves no empathy from his brother, ever, for the rest of his life. There's some moral and emotional complexity there that black-and-white Jack couldn't handle.  Nick obviously knew instantly that the dead boy mattered. He was catatonic. He is now suicidal. He can never make it right or change it. I don't see that he dodged responsibility or used addiction as an excuse. I think he fully blames himself.

I agree.   I kind of excuse him for the accident on several levels; he was probably stoned but  even without drugs he was in a state of shell shock just from being at war, ( I don't know how any sensitive person can stand it) and although we all saw  grenades and a child in the same boat and our maternal hair stood on end  -- young single guys are often really stupid about child safety. They just don't know things like how inclined kids are to copy adults.  Nicky's  ignorance about children, his own panic  which led to yelling directions to the child in a language he didn't know was all understandable, I just really wish he had grabbed for the child as he jumped off the boat.

I do think the little boy's mother shares a tiny bit of responsibility for letting her child wander so freely around the GI's.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

I agree.   I kind of excuse him for the accident on several levels; he was probably stoned but  even without drugs he was in a state of shell shock just from being at war, ( I don't know how any sensitive person can stand it) and although we all saw  grenades and a child in the same boat and our maternal hair stood on end  -- young single guys are often really stupid about child safety. They just don't know things like how inclined kids are to copy adults.  Nicky's  ignorance about children, his own panic  which led to yelling directions to the child in a language he didn't know was all understandable, I just really wish he had grabbed for the child as he jumped off the boat.

I do think the little boy's mother shares a tiny bit of responsibility for letting her child wander so freely around the GI's.

Yes, that's what I mean about the moral complexity of it all. I would add Jack, whose sole purpose was going to "save" his brother from himself, not knowing what Nick was doing that day. And the failure of the unit's chain of command (was Jack in charge?) to safeguard the grenades and not let anyone take them fishing, let alone someone known to be messed up. Maybe Jack's own guilt about that was part of what he could not face. 

[MaryPatShelby]

On 1/22/2019 at 9:03 PM, mtlchick said:

Way better than last week, but except Rebecca claiming she didn't know about Nicky only to find out she did because...what, old wounds?  About someone she never met? 

 

When did we find out that Rebecca knew about Nicky?  She seemed upset the whole show that Jack had kept this secret from her, at least to me, so what did I miss?

[nexxie]

8 hours ago, Driad said:

Wondering why they chose Songbird Road as Nicky's address.  The name sounds cheerful but the story is not.  Maybe it is deeply symbolic in some way?

Wonder if it has something to do with the little boy and/or his mother - was he her little songbird, did one of their names mean songbird, did the boy and Nicky listen to songbirds? I agree; there’s something more to the street name.

[mtlchick]

28 minutes ago, MaryPatShelby said:

When did we find out that Rebecca knew about Nicky?  She seemed upset the whole show that Jack had kept this secret from her, at least to me, so what did I miss?

Oops. I thought Jack had mentioned to Rebecca he saw Nicky, but clearly my mind blanked out at the end.  I had to find some recaps that said that Jack said someone from the war, but didn't specify who.  My mistake. 

[OlderThanDirt]

Didn't all the postcards have the Songbird return address on them?  Was Nicky in the same place all that time even though the postcards were of different locations? Or was someone else in the trailer who knew where Nicky was?

Was  the attack on Jack's squad playing football after the boat incident? Was it retaliation? 

Edited January 28, 2019 by OlderThanDirt

[kili]

Quote

We as the attack on Jack's squad playing football after the boat incident? Was it retaliation? 

Jack's squad was assigned the village duty to allow them to recover after the football incident. The big guy who was throwing the football was the one who was reacting negatively to the villagers (when the little boy that died tried to give Jack a fish, he angrily threw it away).

Quote

Wondering why they chose Songbird Road as Nicky's address.  The name sounds cheerful but the story is not.  Maybe it is deeply symbolic in some way?

It does sound quite evocative. Perhaps it is a reference to Jack marrying a singer (song bird)? It makes me think of the song "Blackbird" and maybe that was the writer's intent? ("Take these broken wings and learn to fly, All your life, You were only waiting for this moment to arise").

[Ohmo]

5 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I do think the little boy's mother shares a tiny bit of responsibility for letting her child wander so freely around the GI's.

So Nicky is to be forgiven and allowed to be stoned and reckless because he's male, yet the mother is supposed to be responsible and know things because she's female?

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, kili said:

Jack's squad was assigned the village duty to allow them to recover after the football incident. The big guy who was throwing the football was the one who was reacting negatively to the villagers (when the little boy that died tried to give Jack a fish, he angrily threw it away).

I thought that Jack was flown in alone by helicopter to the ville where Nicky's unit was, and given two weeks by the commander.

[kili]

Quote

I thought that Jack was flown in alone by helicopter to the ville where Nicky's unit was, and given two weeks by the commander.

I think this is the order of the events (told over many episodes):

1. Jack's Squad is attacked while Squirrel and Moose (?) were playing football. Squirrel is killed, Moose becomes bitter. Robinson loses his foot

2. Jack's Squad is assigned to the fishing village so that they can recover with less risky duty.

3. Jack realizes that he is close to the larger base where Nicky is assigned. He wants a day off, but the unit is not very disciplined so his CO says that it isn't likely. He bribes the unit (with beer) to make sure the place is ship-shape for his CO's visit so that he can get the day off. He uses his day off to hitch a ride on a helicopter to the larger base.

4. Jack tries to convince NIcky's CO to let him have command of his brother to straighten him out. The CO thinks that is unlikely and the army doesn't work that way. He tells him to get back to his base without hitching a ride on a helicopter. Jack pays a guy to take him most of the way on the motorcycle. Just as he gets back to base, the CO arrives with Nicky on a helicopter. He gives Jack two weeks.

5. Jack tries to detox Nicky by removing the drugs. Nicky clearly needs some serious counselling to deal with his underlying issues. Jack gives him a few Jack Lectures instead. It does not work. NIcky finds the backpack full of drugs just lying unprotected in the middle of the camp and he's back on the drugs.

6. Jack is on the "phone" to the CO. The two weeks are up and he wants more time. After a debate, he gets 48 hours.

7. During that 48 hours, Nicky wakes up from being passed out on drugs and decides to take a kid blast fishing. Apparently, nobody was watching Nicky or the explosives. Nobody bothers to investigate until the second explosion.

8. Nicky is taken away by a helicopter in a catatonic state. Moose (or one of the other platoon guys) assures Jack that the shrinks will fix him.

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, kili said:

I think this is the order of the events (told over many episodes):

1. Jack's Squad is attacked while Squirrel and Moose (?) were playing football. Squirrel is killed, Moose becomes bitter. Robinson loses his foot

2. Jack's Squad is assigned to the fishing village so that they can recover with less risky duty.

3. Jack realizes that he is close to the larger base where Nicky is assigned. He wants a day off, but the unit is not very disciplined so his CO says that it isn't likely. He bribes the unit (with beer) to make sure the place is ship-shape for his CO's visit so that he can get the day off. He uses his day off to hitch a ride on a helicopter to the larger base.

4. Jack tries to convince NIcky's CO to let him have command of his brother to straighten him out. The CO thinks that is unlikely and the army doesn't work that way. He tells him to get back to his base without hitching a ride on a helicopter. Jack pays a guy to take him most of the way on the motorcycle. Just as he gets back to base, the CO arrives with Nicky on a helicopter. He gives Jack two weeks.

5. Jack tries to detox Nicky by removing the drugs. Nicky clearly needs some serious counselling to deal with his underlying issues. Jack gives him a few Jack Lectures instead. It does not work. NIcky finds the backpack full of drugs just lying unprotected in the middle of the camp and he's back on the drugs.

6. Jack is on the "phone" to the CO. The two weeks are up and he wants more time. After a debate, he gets 48 hours.

7. During that 48 hours, Nicky wakes up from being passed out on drugs and decides to take a kid blast fishing. Apparently, nobody was watching Nicky or the explosives. Nobody bothers to investigate until the second explosion.

8. Nicky is taken away by a helicopter in a catatonic state. Moose (or one of the other platoon guys) assures Jack that the shrinks will fix him.

Thanks for that chronology.  So then it would appear that Jack was indeed in charge of the unit when Nicky exploded the boat.  He did seem to be leading soldiers away afterwards, but I mistakenly thought that was Nicky's original unit.  He would have had to have blamed himself for the carelessness with which the pharmaceuticals and explosives were handled, he was the staff sergeant. 

[JudyObscure]

6 hours ago, Ohmo said:

So Nicky is to be forgiven and allowed to be stoned and reckless because he's male, yet the mother is supposed to be responsible and know things because she's female?

I didn't say she shouldn't be forgiven, we all make mistakes.  I said she shared some of the responsibility with Nicky.  If I have to be more specific I would say Nicky is about 90% responsible for what happened, and she about 10%. She's is the child's parent.  Parents, whatever their gender,  are morally and legally  responsible for keeping an eye on their small children. 

[ShadowFacts]

The language barrier was another factor in everything that went wrong that day.  Speaking a few words of the other person's language, using facial and hand gestures works fine in benign situations, but in an emergency that is happening fast, that's not good enough.  Just a horrible scenario.

[Mommycpa]

On 1/24/2019 at 6:08 PM, DebbieM4 said:

 I said pretty much the same thing upthread.  There is more to unfold about this, for sure.

(I have no idea what fictional characters would do.  I was simply sharing my thoughts about what possibly could have happened.)

It’s also possible that the parents knew he wasn’t dead and that the mom wouldn’t go against their abusive dad’s wishes to see Nicky. 

I also don’t blame Jack one bit for not seeing Nicky or helping him. My husband (passed 5 years ago) is so much like Jack. He almost never saw his druggie sister or crazy (literally and wouldn’t get help) mother. He didn’t want our children exposed to them.  Indirectly, Nicky was very much responsible for the child’s death.  Nicky was high as a kite and thought it was fun to play with grenades!  He was too high to think of grabbing the boy when he jumped.  Jack knew these things and felt he had done all he could to save Nicky.

I think unless you know someone who has been thru similar things, it’s hard to understand just how much pain Jack had and how he kept it inside. The end, about doing better than your dad...well Jack did much better than his dad. He was a good, but not perfect father. Their life was like our family with a Jack like dad. Big and fun, but not always what it appeared to be. I felt the show was saying now Kevin was growing and becoming a bit better than Jack. 

Seriously, so often, I think these writers have been in my house!  Just too many things!

Edited January 29, 2019 by Mommycpa

[debraran]

But Nicky was a sweet, sensitive kid and young adult up to the time he went to war. He coped the wrong way, if he wasn't a medic maybe it wouldn't have happened. Nicky wasn't a long time addict, it was weeks, and in an unreal situation of Vietnam. Jack can't say he was a "long time" addict, and he never saw if he cleaned up or not. I do understand the addict that disrupts and how it effects the family, not everyone ends up like "Beautiful Boy" but no matter how bad my husband's brother was, he was never "dead". They weren't in war, but had a horribly abusive father growing up. Many of us escape things are own way. One brother cleaned up and he sees and talks to him, the other not. But dead is not something you do to someone who is alive and you have no idea how he was. Keep kids away, tell them anything but dead.

I said before, if Jack killed someone or injured the number of times he drove intoxicated, Rebecca wouldn't leave him and he ( I hope) wouldn't leave his children if the same awful thing happened to them while doing something dumb. It's a nightmare, but I just can't see him playing God with Nicky, he wasn't a doctor, you don't clean up someone while they are still in the hell they are escaping from.

I understand it soon after, not for decades.  It helped Milo didn't either because I thought he would know what was coming and seemed shocked too at the curve the writers put in.

Edited January 29, 2019 by debraran

[lucindabelle]

15 hours ago, debraran said:

 

I understand it soon after, not for decades.  It helped Milo didn't either because I thought he would know what was coming and seemed shocked too at the curve the writers put in.

Yes, Every time writers withhold information or make it up later, it makes how the actor played it earlier FALSE. Which TBH is really an insult to the actor's craft. I get why it happens on television but it doesn't make it OK. Milo played a man whose brother died.

Then, he's told he should really have been playing a man who knows his brother is alive but is SAYING his brother died.

there's no way those two things are the same.

Kind of like when the teen in the Americans was so shocked at finding his whole family slaughtered. Later we're meant to believe he was in on it. BUT HE DIDN'T PLAY IT THAT WAY BECAUSE THE ACTOR DIDN'T KNOW. There was zero reason for him to pretend to be shocked because nobody was watching. So not only was the kid a spy, HE WAS A GREAT ACTOR.

It pisses me off. If you respect the actor and his craft it should be a discussion at the VERY least.

When people do plays for example or a movie where someone is the killer: the killer knows what he is playing.

And yes, I agree, not for decades, and six years after he saw him, too.

Feels contrived to surprise the audience, and not like something IRL.

I'd be thinking, what else did Jack hide? is there another family somewhere?