Fosse/Verdon - General Discussion

[Rinaldo]

Recalling that time when Fosse the Oscar, the Tony, the Emmy within such a short time... I do remember how amazing that seemed, when he had so recently been a name known mostly to theater fans, aside from his failed movie. And the Oscar especially -- that was won against substantial competition, a fertile time in American movies. As he says when friends predict he'll win, "Talk to Coppola" -- it was the year of The Godfather! And yet he did win, and justly. It was probably one of the times it made the most sense for Best Director and Best Picture not to coincide. The Godfather is a masterpiece, no doubt of it, and nobody can say Coppola didn't direct it masterfully; and yet look at Cabaret, and that's just a smashing piece of direction, with a look and life all its own.

(It didn't get 100% raves, by the way; I recall Time magazine being sniffy and belittling in its reaction.)

I had an Ann Reinking encounter early on, by the way, when I was at IU School of Music in 1968. I was taking a break from practicing one spring day, and a striking-looking girl walked into the student lounge, accompanied by her mother. They were in town with the tour of Fiddler (chorus), and she was looking for a high school classmate of hers -- I knew him and said I'd get the message to him, "Ann Reinking has left a ticket for you at the box office." I did tell him and he did go, and I thought to myself, "She seems to have that extra spark, I bet I hear more about her." And 4 years later, there she was in the Pippin ensemble. (And many years later, when I was introduced to her at the cast party for the Chicago revival at City Center Encores, she recalled the incident completely. A very gracious lady.)

Edited May 6, 2019 by Rinaldo

[Neurochick]

Bob Fosse wasn't a nice man, but he was a great artist.  Sometimes that happens.  Sometimes nice people are terrible actors/dancers/singers.  We humans are complicated, we're not robots.  

I was born in NYC and I remember this commercial, because it was the first of its kind for Broadway musicals:

[Rinaldo]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

Bob Fosse wasn't a nice man, but he was a great artist. 

[Apologies for another post so soon, but this quote gets to the heart of what this whole series is about, for me.]

Fosse was a slimeball. AND he was a great artist. Both are true (as they sometimes are for figures whose work we remember). They stand in separate columns. One doesn't excuse the other. One doesn't cancel the other out. We have to deal with both ideas. That's the complexity of history and biography.

[mightysparrow]

3 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Bob Fosse wasn't a nice man, but he was a great artist.  Sometimes that happens.  Sometimes nice people are terrible actors/dancers/singers.  We humans are complicated, we're not robots.  

Excellent comment!

If one of the criteria for an artist is that they're 'good' people. we'd have very little art.  We'd also have very few doctors, lawyers or cabdrivers.

[TimWil]

Watching SNL right now and wondering if they might end up doing a spoof of Fosse/Verdon with Beck Bennett as Rockwell/Fosse and Kate McKinnon as Williams/Verdon. 

Edited May 5, 2019 by TimWil

[voiceover]

Doing yet another re-watch of "Who's Got the Pain?"

I've already posted about the two best scenes of the series so far: the first meeting that was Gwen's not-really audition,  and then the brainstorming session that became "Who's Got the Pain?"

It's right before he waxes poetic about how an artist turns himself inside out for his audience.  Verdon has chuckled at the opening bars of the ditty, but is already poised to move on. Then he stops her and just...breathes...about how "[She'll] be dancing so magnificently...."

And Michelle slides down onto a chair you're not sure if she even realized was there.  Because the way Bobby says, "Magnificently" -- causes her to liquefy on the spot.

Damn.

The creative bits & piecing are my favorite parts here, and it's not even close.  The infidelity and headgames and parenting ish and griping with the respective bff's is all well & good, but that's *everybody's life.  

The genius-burning, artistic flaming, Here's-what's-gonna-make-it-work!! is what fascinates me.  It's why I'm watching.  It's why one of my all-time favorite films is Mike Leigh's Topsy-Turvy, his 1999 masterpiece about how a fading theatrical duo known as Gilbert & Sullivan create their greatest ever: The Mikado.  The backstage gossip & personal pain is kept to the side & to the minimum. For that, there's other movies.

(It's only fair to admit here that another of my favorite films is mostly about the non-genius, soap operaish side of the creative process: All About Eve).

[elle]

15 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

Recalling that time when Fosse the Oscar, the Tony, the Emmy within such a short time... I do remember how amazing that seemed, when he had so recently been a name known mostly to theater fans, aside from his failed movie. And the Oscar especially -- that was won against substantial competition, a fertile time in American movies. As he says when friends predict he'll win, "Talk to Coppola" -- it was the year of The Godfather! And yet he did win, and justly. It was probably one of the times it made the most sense for Best Director and Best Picture not to coincide. The Godfather is a masterpiece, no doubt of it, and nobody can say Coppola didn't direct it masterfully; and yet look at Cabaret, and that's just a smashing piece of direction, with a look and life all its own.

(It didn't get 100% raves, by the way; I recall Time magazine being sniffy and belittling in its reaction.)

I had an Ann Reinking encounter early on, by the way, when I was at IU School of Music in 1968. I was taking a break from practicing one spring day, and a striking-looking girl walked into the student lounge, accompanied by her mother. They were in town with the tour of Fiddler (chorus), and she was looking for a high school classmate of hers -- I knew him and said I'd get the message to him, "Ann Reinking has left a ticket for you at the box office." I did tell him and he did go, and I thought to myself, "She seems to have that extra spark, I bet I hear more about her." And 4 yers later, there she was in the Pippin ensemble. (And many years later, when I was introduced to her at the cast party for the Chicago revival at City Center Encores, she recalled the incident completely. A very gracious lady.)

Great story about Ann Reinking, Rinaldo! 

I was looking up on the Oscars website to see if Cabaret was up for costuming at the Oscars, it was not, and found this clip showing Julie Andrews presenting Best Director.  Watch Bob Fosse  as they announce the nominees.  It is almost painful to see how  he is deliberately avoiding looking at the camera. It is almost a squirming movement, you can see now how tortured he was at that moment.

I hope the link works: https://www.oscars.org/oscars/ceremonies/1973

Edited May 5, 2019 by elle

[kathe5133]

I’m sure there is a special place in hell for me for noticing while watching that clip and feeling that I have to mention.....  12 strands of hair swirled about the front and about 20 strands of hair swirled about the top.  Bobby, it’s gone.  Really, the hair is gone.  Break out the Bic and end the pain.  That’s all I’ve got.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

S1.E4 clips

Visiting Joan

Notes

[ElectricBoogaloo]

While sexual harassment and abuse were far more accepted and expected in ye olden days before #MeToo, that doesn't mean the victims enjoyed it. There was more of a gritted teeth "well, fuck, this is the shit I have to put up with" kind of attitude from a lot of people who experienced it, not because they liked it but because they knew that reporting it would yield nothing positive for them. If the person reporting it wasn't outright fired, they would be subjected to further abuse, a demotion, ridicule, etc. That's why so many victims just kept their mouths shut - they didn't want to lose their jobs or future opportunities.

But just because it was common practice doesn't mean that it was okay or that I absolve anyone who did it back then because "that's the way it was." Men got away with it because they held all the power and women knew that there were virtually no consequences for the perpetrators.

The quote I always think about when trying to illustrate how women were conditioned to accept harassment as an everyday part of being female is from My So-Called Life (the pilot episode, which this quote is from, was shot in March 1993, less than two years after the Anita Hill hearings and in the midst of the riot grrrl era):

Brian: So what happened?
Angela: These guys started hitting on us.
Brian: What? Like, sexual harassment?
Angela: Like guys.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

S1.E5: Where Am I Going?

Quote

As old friends reunite for a weekend at the beach, new tensions emerge between Bob and Gwen.

Promo:

Original air date: 5/7/19

Edited May 5, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[alexvillage]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

While sexual harassment and abuse were far more accepted and expected in ye olden days before #MeToo, that doesn't mean the victims enjoyed it. There was more of a gritted teeth "well, fuck, this is the shit I have to put up with" kind of attitude from a lot of people who experienced it, not because they liked it but because they knew that reporting it would yield nothing positive for them. If the person reporting it wasn't outright fired, they would be subjected to further abuse, a demotion, ridicule, etc. That's why so many victims just kept their mouths shut - they didn't want to lose their jobs or future opportunities.

Agreed.

It is also the patriarchy, the sexualization of women that we still see on TV and movies. Maybe it is just me, and I don't consider myself a prude, but the amount of scenes where young women MUST be showing or almost showing their breasts is annoying. And I believe many of those actresses just think it is natural, it is "for the art". In some cases, maybe. But in many cases is gratuitous, and even though a man might be also there, the woman is the one sexualized - which is an extension of sorts of the extreme sexualization of breasts. 

It is more complex than that but I can see all the connections in my head. I just cannot be very coherent.

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

But just because it was common practice doesn't mean that it was okay or that I absolve anyone who did it back then because "that's the way it was." Men got away with it because they held all the power and women knew that there were virtually no consequences for the perpetrators.

This is also true and there is an even more complex set of attitudes and perceptions that cloud everything to me, maybe because the culture I grew up in is very different from the one in the show. Without diverting too much, it comes down to how men have always got away with a lot of things in the past - still do - because they are seen as "boys" and women are seen as objects.

[Loandbehold]

9 hours ago, elle said:

Watch Bob Fosse  as they announce the nominees.  It is almost painful to see how  he is deliberately avoiding looking at the camera. It is almost a squirming movement, you can see now how tortured he was at that moment.

Hearing the nominees, besides Coppola for The Godfather, I didn't remember that Sleuth was in the same year. That was quite the year for movies.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

9 hours ago, kathe5133 said:

I’m sure there is a special place in hell for me for noticing while watching that clip and feeling that I have to mention.....  12 strands of hair swirled about the front and about 20 strands of hair swirled about the top.  Bobby, it’s gone.  Really, the hair is gone.  Break out the Bic and end the pain.  That’s all I’ve got.

I’ve never understood this particular tactic. Do they really think they’re fooling anyone?

[Regalbegal]

22 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

[Apologies for another post so soon, but this quote gets to the heart of what this whole series is about, for me.]

Fosse was a slimeball. AND he was a great artist. Both are true (as they sometimes are for figures whose work we remember). They stand in separate columns. One doesn't excuse the other. One doesn't cancel the other out. We have to deal with both ideas. That's the complexity of history and biography.

Excellent comment.  I finally caught up with the series this weekend, and although I love the musical/creative parts,  I think that has been my problem with some of the episodes-  not really addressing the former head on and falling too easily into the "troubled genius" trope.  Although we all have our demons, at heart Fosse's treatment of women was awful - the last episode was the first that really seemed to fully get that for me (and, based on "All That Jazz", I think Fosse got it on some level as well).  

That all said, I think Williams and Rockwell are both doing superb jobs. 

Side note... when I was in grade school, another student said that her sister was a dancer in the touring company of "Pippin" and dating Fosse.  At the time we didn't believe her, but in hindsight I am guessing many women in the touring company of "Pippin" "dated" him.  

[txhorns79]

As I watched the episode, I wondered whether Joan was suffering from that Ali McGraw type of cancer that makes women get more beautiful as the cancer advances.  I also do hope the real Joan had better things to concern herself with at the end than the welfare of Nicole Fosse.  That was just a strange moment, as I thought Bob was crappy father, but Gwen seemed overall to be a decent mother, at least to the point where it was odd to have Joan essentially calling her out.  

I also did enjoy that sad little chyron for Gwen as Bob was winning all his awards that her last Tony nomination was 14 years earlier.  

[atlantaloves]

Well Gwen caught up, she did win 4 Tony's.

[tennisgurl]

I feel so bad for Gwen now, stuck in that crappy soon to be closed play run by that disrespectful jerk playwright while Bobby is just getting more and more success. I just want to reach into the screen and yell "Its ok Gwen, Chicago is coming! The best isnt over yet!"

[JeanneH]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

As I watched the episode, I wondered whether Joan was suffering from that Ali McGraw type of cancer that makes women get more beautiful as the cancer advances.

According to Slate's fact vs fiction for this episode, Joan Simon died of bone cancer in 1973. If she had to pass from cancer I wish it hadn't been from that form. There's a link to her obituary in that article that just made me angry. If that's all they were going to write they shouldn't have bothered.

Quote

I also did enjoy that sad little chyron for Gwen as Bob was winning all his awards that her last Tony nomination was 14 years earlier.

IIRC it said her last win was 14 years earlier (which would have been for Redhead in 1959).

spoiler edited

Spoiler

She did get 2 more Tony nominations after Redhead, but no wins. One of those losses was due to the horrendous timing (IMO) of Chicago being in the same Tony year as A Chorus Line, and even if they weren't up against that juggernaut she and co-star Chita Rivera were up in the same category so there would have been vote splitting.

Edited May 6, 2019 by JeanneH

[Rinaldo]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

AI also do hope the real Joan had better things to concern herself with at the end than the welfare of Nicole Fosse.  That was just a strange moment, as I thought Bob was crappy father, but Gwen seemed overall to be a decent mother, at least to the point where it was odd to have Joan essentially calling her out.

I didn't take Joan's words as saying Gwen wasn't a good mother -- just reflecting the reality that with Bob being this magnet who sucks up all available attention from everybody, it might be easy to overlook that you have a young daughter who needs a lot of love and attention too, even if she's not so vocal about it.

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I also did enjoy that sad little chyron for Gwen as Bob was winning all his awards that her last Tony nomination was 14 years earlier.  

56 minutes ago, atlantaloves said:

Well Gwen caught up, she did win 4 Tony's.

It's not a matter of catching up; all 4 of Gwen's Tonys were well in the past by this point, the last of them being for Redhead in 1959. That's still better than most people ever do, of course, but she must have felt that her glory days were over, never to return. (Redhead was that "14 years before"; she did get nominated for Sweet Charity, and there would be one more nomination, for Chicago -- which she might well have won except... well, I'm sure we'll see.)

Edited May 6, 2019 by Rinaldo

[Quilt Fairy]

23 hours ago, voiceover said:

 It's why one of my all-time favorite films is Mike Leigh's Topsy-Turvy, his 1999 masterpiece about how a fading theatrical duo known as Gilbert & Sullivan create their greatest ever: The Mikado.

I love that movie!  You get 2 for the price of one:  an interesting movie about the making of the Mikado and the best bits of the show itself, beautifully staged and sung. 

[lavenderblue]

6 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I also did enjoy that sad little chyron for Gwen as Bob was winning all his awards that her last Tony nomination was 14 years earlier.  

Since I complained about the chyrons early on, I will give credit to this episode's, which actually helped further the story along by chronicling Fosse's achievements in that period (desite the timeline fudging) and that one for Gwen was effective, too.

[alexvillage]

I finally watched the episode. The little montage sex/drugs/suicidal ideation took me back to All That Jazz with the montage of cigarette/cough/eye drops/pills.

9 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I also do hope the real Joan had better things to concern herself with at the end than the welfare of Nicole Fosse.  That was just a strange moment

Yeah, I was intrigued by that too. 

[Inquisitionist]

On 5/2/2019 at 7:43 PM, Jordan Baker said:

BTW, I also like the barn raising number from 7 Brides, but that's about the only thing I like about the musical. I think Monty Python ruined it for me. 😄

Do you 4 boys take these 2 girls to be your 7 brides?  Bwah!

[atlantaloves]

Rinaldo: whoops, I do stand corrected, thanks!💋

[Inquisitionist]

On 5/3/2019 at 4:42 PM, Rinaldo said:

And the secondary casting is impeccable. Aya Cash as Joan Simon, Norbert Leo Butz as Paddy Chayevsky, Kelli Barrett as Liza Minnelli (and despite what was speculated a few pages back, that's undoubtedly her voice as opposed to the original Liza -- that's what she was hired for), Byron Jennings as George Abbott, And short appearances by Peter Scolari, Santino Fontana, and more. I hope we see more of Laura Osnes as Shirley MacLaine and Lindsay Nicole Chambers as Leland Palmer (there are other intersections along the timeline, so it's possible).

Don't forget Paul Reiser as Cy Feuer.  I didn't recognize him until reading a review!

On 5/4/2019 at 8:17 AM, Rinaldo said:

And yet he did win, and justly. It was probably one of the times it made the most sense for Best Director and Best Picture not to coincide. The Godfather is a masterpiece, no doubt of it, and nobody can say Coppola didn't direct it masterfully; and yet look at Cabaret, and that's just a smashing piece of direction, with a look and life all its own.

Absolutely!  Splitting the top prizes here was spot on.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Inquisitionist

[alexvillage]

18 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

Don't forget Paul Reiser as Cy Feuer.  I didn't recognize him until reading a review!

I didn't either! It is not the first time this happens. I don't remember which movie or series but Paul Reiser seems to have this ability to go unrecognizable. I have to go back and rewatch.

Another part of the latest episode that reminded me of All That Jazz - when Nicole was singing, it reminded me of Michelle singing "Some of These Days" to Joe Gideon. Only that Michelle was dressed up as an adult, and Nicole looked like a younger version of herself. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by alexvillage

[mightysparrow]

On 5/5/2019 at 12:27 AM, voiceover said:

Doing yet another re-watch of "Who's Got the Pain?"

I've already posted about the two best scenes of the series so far: the first meeting that was Gwen's not-really audition,  and then the brainstorming session that became "Who's Got the Pain?"

It's right before he waxes poetic about how an artist turns himself inside out for his audience.  Verdon has chuckled at the opening bars of the ditty, but is already poised to move on. Then he stops her and just...breathes...about how "[She'll] be dancing so magnificently...."

And Michelle slides down onto a chair you're not sure if she even realized was there.  Because the way Bobby says, "Magnificently" -- causes her to liquefy on the spot.

Damn.

The creative bits & piecing are my favorite parts here, and it's not even close.  The infidelity and headgames and parenting ish and griping with the respective bff's is all well & good, but that's *everybody's life.  

The genius-burning, artistic flaming, Here's-what's-gonna-make-it-work!! is what fascinates me.  It's why I'm watching.  It's why one of my all-time favorite films is Mike Leigh's Topsy-Turvy, his 1999 masterpiece about how a fading theatrical duo known as Gilbert & Sullivan create their greatest ever: The Mikado.  The backstage gossip & personal pain is kept to the side & to the minimum. For that, there's other movies.

(It's only fair to admit here that another of my favorite films is mostly about the non-genius, soap operaish side of the creative process: All About Eve).

I noticed that melting into the chair moment.

'Topsy-Turvy' is another PERFECT movie from one of the unsung geniuses of film-making, Mike Leigh. 

[ichbin]

On 5/4/2019 at 2:37 PM, Neurochick said:

I was born in NYC and I remember this commercial, because it was the first of its kind for Broadway musicals:

I remember that commercial! It was my introduction to Fosse choreography.  

[SeanC]

Williams’ acting in the big confrontation scene was only slightly diminished by the hard cut into an upbeat Kellogg’s commercial that immediately followed.

[AriAu]

Another fun watch!

Quote

I thought Bob was crappy father, but Gwen seemed overall to be a decent mother, at least to the point where it was odd to have Joan essentially calling her out. 

Still feel the same way after this episode??? Nicole Fosse is an Exec producer and she certainly got to have her say and she wasn't all that nice to either parent , altho she was pretty nice to her surrogate mother (or maybe sister) Ann Reinking!

In this episode, Gwen certainly got painted with the, shall we say, less flattering brush. Did she go just to get Bob to do Chicago and was fucking him just a tool or did she plan it?

Quote

Williams’ acting in the big confrontation scene was only slightly diminished by the hard cut into an upbeat Kellogg’s commercial that immediately followed.

By the way, did you know that Taco Bell had a special taco with crunchy things in it! 

Edited May 8, 2019 by AriAu

[Quilt Fairy]

Well, that was boring. 

[Door County Cherry]

1 hour ago, AriAu said:

In this episode, Gwen certainly got painted with the, shall we say, less flattering brush. Did she go just to get Bob to do Chicago and was fucking him just a tool or did she plan it?

I don't think she planned on sleeping with him and I suspect that's artistic license.  

At first it looks like she's just there to pressure him into doing something he's not interested in doing but then we find out that he's spinning tales about why he's out of the hospital and only she really knows what went down.  But I don't think it was the romp which made him change his mind.  He already had changed his mind before then when she told him why Chicago couldn't be put off another year.  It's why he was telling her that she couldn't call the other director she was considering.  

The actress playing Anne looks so young but she does a good job with the deeper voice. 

[GaT]

Well, up until this point I didn't like Bob Fosse. Now I don't like Gwen Verdon either.

[voiceover]

Wellllll, I'm already reneging on my "Eeeeyyyeeeuuuuwww, too soapy!" gripe from last week.  Because I was riveted all the way through.

Gwen's flash-memories of Joan felt wrenching and true.  Even when you're pushing the grief down, it pops up around the edges.  Later on she wielded that pretty effectively against Bob (who was obviously missing Joan too).  In fact, most of this ep was Gwen turning the tables and proving to be just as effective a manipulator as her husband.  I admit to wincing at some of that, but she spent a lot of their marriage subsuming her career to his.   So I could handwave (weakly) her "My turn now, asshole!" tactics.

And the sly stab of promising to bring in Hal Prince was masterful. Jealousy is such a powerful motivator.  As far as the clinch after -- grief sex with an ex! raw and intense and a frank turn-on.

Norbert stole his scenes as Paddy C.  His angry attack on Lenny Bruce reminded me of something.  The second time through, it hit me: that bristling "I've gotta get this off my chest" tirade at the '78 Oscars, when the real Paddy chastised Vanessa Redgrave's "Zionist hoodlums" acceptance speech.

And he had a nice throwaway line when he wondered aloud if Neil would ever get over Joan.  

Spoiler

Give him four months!

[TheOtherOne]

Fosse/Verdon: Inside Ann Reinking and Gwen Verdon’s Unlikely Friendship

Gwen Verdon's Boyfriend Ron On 'Fosse/Verdon' Is Based On A Real Person From The Broadway Star's Life

[Rinaldo]

10 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

But I don't think it was the romp which made him change his mind.  He already had changed his mind before then when she told him why Chicago couldn't be put off another year.

There were lots of subtleties in there, which I appreciated. I felt like he was waiting for her to say why she needed Chicago to happen soon, but he knew it already -- he was as aware as anybody of the finite duration of a dancer's life, and her need for one more great role, both artistically and for financial security. Another moment that turned his stance around was her performance of "Where Am I Going?", which pointed out explicitly  (in her need to perform, and in its very lyrics) that she needed to keep going professionally, just as he did.

10 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

The actress playing Anne looks so young but she does a good job with the deeper voice.

Ann Reinking was only 23 at the time. I found myself thinking that the pitch of the voice was right, but not the inflections; Reinking's speech patterns are as distinctive and identifiable as Verdon's, and I wanted to hear them.

7 hours ago, voiceover said:

 In fact, most of this ep was Gwen turning the tables and proving to be just as effective a manipulator as her husband.  I admit to wincing at some of that, but she spent a lot of their marriage subsuming her career to his.   So I could handwave (weakly) her "My turn now, asshole!" tactics.

 

I thought about Gwen's move there as a less extreme version of what I said about Bob above: two separate columns. She was genuinely concerned about Bob doing too much, AND she wanted that one more damn role while she could still dance it, for her life as a performer and for financial security. Both are true. I don't feel a need to hand wave or excuse anybody: these are messed-up complicated people, and they don't have to be "nice" for me to be absorbed in them.

7 hours ago, voiceover said:

And the sly stab of promising to bring in Hal Prince was masterful. Jealousy is such a powerful motivator.  As far as the clinch after -- grief sex with an ex! raw and intense and a frank turn-on.

(Not even an ex, in the legal sense, though of course that's what they were in effect, and all those adjectives seem exactly right to me.) Hal Prince is exactly the name she would have considered as an alternative to Bob, and surely did -- he was the other director doing cutting-edge work at this point, and his ties to Sondheim weren't exclusive. Again, genuine but also a masterstroke of goading Bob into action.

7 hours ago, voiceover said:

Norbert stole his scenes as Paddy C.  His angry attack on Lenny Bruce reminded me of something.  The second time through, it hit me: that bristling "I've gotta get this off my chest" tirade

Norbert Leo Butz really took center stage for a minute here. And virtually all Chayevsky's screenwriting from The Americanization of Emily on had been a series of angry tirades about something or other, something on which he wanted to educate all us ignoramuses at the movies. I'd been waiting for this side of him to emerge, and was gratified to see it happen.

This hour was what regular TV series call a bottle episode, and came across to me as a one-act play. It was, on the surface, without "action," and yet it was filled with moves and countermoves and subtext and mixed motives and internal conflict. I found it completely compelling.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Rinaldo

[Julyolo]

Very happy to finally have a more nuanced portrayal of Gwen Verdon. She and his friends certainly loved him to death.....literally. Strange how their aspirations seemed to mesh with his suicidal work/lifestyle ethos. While I find his behavior a la Weinstein abhorrent, I have to wonder how many women have had career successes by exploiting the pathology of these men, to the detriment of women who sought to achieve per their talent alone.

[AriAu]

Quote

Hal Prince is exactly the name she would have considered as an alternative to Bob, and surely did -- he was the other director doing cutting-edge work at this point, and his ties to Sondheim weren't exclusive. Again, genuine but also a masterstroke of goading Bob into action

From what I have read, Verdon and Fosse, along with producer Richard Fryer, bought the rights to the play Chicago to turn into the musical back in 1969, so I am not sure that she would have had the sole right to bring in Hal Prince without Fosse having some say. 

In addition, while that was the work of a master manipulator, the rest was sooooo heavy handed and obvious that it looked like the work of an amateur.....and really did not paint her in the best light

[mightysparrow]

That was rough.  Stuff like this is the reason I never accept invitations to spend a weekend at the cottage.

I really wanted Ron and Anne to run off together and leave the grown-ups to work out their demons.  They both seemed like two nice kids who were in waaaaaaay over their heads.  But it struck me that one of the reasons why they both stuck it out was because it would be good for their careers.  Neither one of the them would be in the position of hobnobbing with the elite on their own, and they knew it.

Poor Nicole didn't have the choice; she was doomed to be valet/accessory to her parents.  I'll be happy if puking at a party is the worse thing that happens to that little girl as she grows up. 

On the surface, Anne Reinking comes off well but she's also portrayed as being criminally naive.  Trying to impress PADDY CHAYEVSKY with her knowledge of local history was pathetic.  And they all basically patted her on the head and then ignored her.  I wonder how many of Bob's girls Paddy told they were 'special'.

We already knew that Gwen Verdon wasn't going to be voted mother of the year but why should she be condemned for being a crap parent when Bob Fosse is the other parent?  At least she made sure Nicole was fed, went to school and had a roof over her head.  I gasped when Gwen was telling Anne about the great things that Bob could give and Annie blinked her big eyes and said 'Nicole' only to have Gwen dismiss her daughter as icing on the cake.  The REAL good stuff were the great roles.  Anne should have run screaming into the night at that point but the poor thing probably didn't know how to drive.

Paddy Chayevsky is the MVP of this episode and Norbert is KILLING.  Paddy is a man with his own issues but he's brilliant, great company and a ride-or-die-friend.  In one of the great moments in Oscar (and human) history, it was Paddy Chayevsky who called Peter Finch's widow up to accept his Best Actor award.  The Academy didn't think it was appropriate that the world see that Peter Finch was married to a Jamaican woman.  Apparently Mrs. Finch had come to terms with the ugly racist disrespect and was sitting in the audience but Paddy refused to accept it.  She was so flustered when she came up on stage, wearing a gorgeous fur coat.  It was a beautiful moment. 

This episode showed why Gwen and Bob were such a well-matched couple and why there was no way on earth they could ever be together.  They had matching trauma and desperation.  They knew what buttons to push and when.  They accepted the ravenous hunger they each had but how do you live with that on a daily basis?  They needed people like Anne and Ron to give them some glimmer of hope.

Edited May 8, 2019 by mightysparrow

[callmebetty]

Now I want a Paddy Chayevsky biopic. All the stories you are writing about make him sound like a fascinating person. 

[Rinaldo]

5 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

I really wanted Ron and [Ann] to run off together and leave the grown-ups to work out their demons.  They both seemed like two nice kids who were in waaaaaaay over their heads.  But it struck me that one of the reasons why they both stuck it out was because it would be good for their careers.  Neither one of the them would be in the position of hobnobbing with the elite on their own, and they knew it.

It's a little hard to talk about Ron in parallel with Ann Reinking, because he's mostly a fictional creation, so he has whatever "motivation" the writers give him (and his best real-life counterpart, Jerry Lanning*, both had more name recognition before this date and never achieved the middling level of fame that Ann did afterward). But I'd say they both knew what they were getting into with their choices, and Ann resisted Bob a long time precisely because she could see (and had long heard about) his modus operandi so well. She did become the longest-enduring of his "girls on the side," but her line here showing her awareness that it wouldn't be forever is probably not an after-the-fact invention; she was smart enough to know.

I think she was also talented enough to rise to the top without Bob, as she did to an extent (so I disagree somewhat with the last sentence quoted). It's impossible to know what kind of weight her connection with Fosse carried at auditions for other productions, but I bet it could cut both ways -- she might have had to prove her talent twice as hard, which she could do. Her early successes include a featured role in Over Here!,** a starring role as Joan of Arc in Goodtime Charley, being the first replacement Cassie in A Chorus Line, and then a striking movie debut in Movie Movie. None of those had any Fosse connection.

(*Leaving aside Lanning's early stage work, TV fans may remember him best from an episode of The Dick Van Dyke Show, "The Twizzle," one of those "the studio made us feature this guest star" segments [and that is indeed literally what happened; after going to so much trouble featuring him, they then dropped him], in which he first sang the novelty song quoted in the title, and then at the end revealed that he really wanted to sing like a classic baritone, and did a chorus of "This Nearly Was Mine." Not the show's best moment.)

(**Over Here!, a musical designed as a vehicle for the two surviving Andrews Sisters, must have had one of the most future-stellar song/dance ensembles ever: Ann Reinking and fellow Fosse specialist John Mineo, also Marilu Henner, John Travolta, Treat Williams, and Samuel E. Wright.)

Edited May 8, 2019 by Rinaldo

[atlantaloves]

Mightysparrow: Well said, I totally concur! 

[iMonrey]

Quote

Now I want a Paddy Chayevsky biopic.

I had to look him up on Wikipedia. Not someone I recognized by name but certainly I'm familiar with his Oscar-winning work. Neil Simon, on the other hand, I knew.

This was an odd episode to go past the one-hour mark considering it was a typical "bottle episode" without the usual time jumps. But I thought it was effective and showed us a different side of Gwen, which wasn't that pretty. I was rather embarrassed for her, actually - she was visibly drunk and wasn't exactly subtle pushing her agenda. 

I didn't feel that sorry for Nicole. She led a pretty privileged life, and what kid hasn't tried booze and cigarettes and gotten sick afterwards?

The acting on this thing really keeps it going. I didn't think there was enough material to fill eight episodes but they're doing just fine. I'm not sure it would have worked without Rockwell and Williams.

[alexvillage]

6 hours ago, Julyolo said:

While I find his behavior a la Weinstein abhorrent, I have to wonder how many women have had career successes by exploiting the pathology of these men, to the detriment of women who sought to achieve per their talent alone.

And this still happens, with added levels of exploitation. How many "dream couples" are nothing more than a PR stunt? Women marrying powerful men (the whole spectrum of power) to give a boost to their careers or, to a lesser extent, men marrying powerful women for the same reason? 

However Nicole felt about her parents, at least publicly she seems to have come to terms with it. She was with her mother to the end, she runs the businesses that carry their names, she tries to make sure their legacy stays true to what she believes it should be. So she seems to be just fine.

[Jordan Baker]

I agree with those who said that Norbert Leo Butz was a standout in this episode. And Michelle Williams was great, as she has been in all the episodes.

What wasn't great? That pantsuit Gwen was wearing when she arrived in the Hamptons. ACK. The '70s was a strange decade for fashion.

[Blakeston]

Gotta love how perfect it was that Gwen told Ann that it's worth being with Bobby because it will lead to great roles like Roxie.

Spoiler

Ann would find that out herself, about 25 years later.

I actually think Paddy and Gwen were being genuine when they said that Bobby had more meaningful feelings for Ann than for the other young women he'd brought home. Their situation was different, and him allowing her to develop such a close bond with Nicole was strong evidence of it. 

Obviously he was still going to cheat on her, but they never tried to convince her otherwise.

[tennisgurl]

Rather long bottle episode, but I was quite riveted throughout. So many great performances, with Williams and Rockwell nailing it as always, but also from the rest of the cast who did a so much with everything they had. Joan left a long shadow over the show episode, and you could really feel the grief that her husband and friends felt over her passing, especially when Gwen had those brief flashes of her memories of them and their friendship. 

I still find Gwen to be the more sympathetic of her and Bobby, but she sure showed some not so nice sides together, which I actually found interesting. She had many good qualities, but wasnt perfect, just because she was in love with such an imperfect man who did her wrong so many times. I do think she cares about Bobby and worries about his health, but she also has a mercurial side who knows that her dancing years are coming to an end, and she needs one more iconic role to set herself and Nicole up for life and ensure her legacy before its been too long. Its understandable, if cold in how she manipulated things to try and get Bobby on broad, even getting him out of the hospital before he was ready.  

I had never knew much about Paddy Chayevsky before this show (I knew lots about Neil Simon) but I am really glad to know about him now, what an interesting guy with a fascinating life story! He had a great presence throughout the episode, he seems like he would be a super interesting guest at any dinner party. 

That story about how Bobby lost his virginity was just...creepy and wrong. Like, not that it explains everything or excuses his behavior, but it does give more context towards his screwed up behavior when it comes to women, sex, and using his authority to get sex from younger women. Its an interesting bit that while his friends were all patting him on the back for being "lucky" to lose his virginity at 13 to two grown women (who "took turns" eek) Bobby looked kind of confused by the memory, like he had no idea how he was supposed to feel about that. 

You can certainly see how Gwen and Bobby keep ending up together, they have a lot in common. They have traumatic histories mixing sexual abuse and show business, intense drive, ambition, and passion for their art, single mindedness for their goals, I can see why they can never really let each other go, even after their marriage has long since ended. As people and as artistic partners they get each other, as much as anyone can get either one of them. 

This could have easily been a really interesting stage play. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Inquisitionist]

Quote

That story about how Bobby lost his virginity was just...creepy and wrong. 

Shades of Don Draper!

[iMonrey]

Quote

That story about how Bobby lost his virginity was just...creepy and wrong. 

Shades of Don Draper!

Interesting you should say that because at the time, I very much got the impression that the Mad Men story was sort of ripping off Fosse's story. It played out a bit differently in All The Jazz but the circumstances were essentially the same so I remembered it when they did something similar with Don Draper.