Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[xfuse]

4 hours ago, swanpride said:

Honestly, the whole thing is already traumatic enough as it is. imagine you are twins and suddenly your twin is older than you. Imagine your little brother is suddenly your big brother. Imagine your weren't snapped, but your parents were, and now they are suddenly back, or you come back to parents who were grieving over you the whole time. Imagine only one parent was snapped and the other moved on. Imagine you come back and one or both parents died in the meantime.

You just described Manifest. Maybe that was what happened to the plane. They were snapped.

[swanpride]

Wasn't the explanation that people who were snapped in while in a plane reappeared at a safe place but those who got run over or died because a plane or a car crashed, well, tough luck? Which makes for a lot of more trauma...like, one second you are sitting with your family in a plane and the next second you are in the middle of nowhere and about to learn that your family died five years ago.....

[JessePinkman]

5 hours ago, swanpride said:

Wasn't the explanation that people who were snapped in while in a plane reappeared at a safe place but those who got run over or died because a plane or a car crashed, well, tough luck? 

Yes, either the writers or the Russos said part of Bruce's snap wish (or whatever you call it) was to bring everyone back safely, minus the people who died as a result of an accident due to the snapture. I guess only unnatural deaths counted.

[VCRTracking]

Wow. I don't know why they changed it.

https://twitter.com/goshromanoff/status/1248333424458424322?s=19

[coppersin]

11 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Wow. I don't know why they changed it.

https://twitter.com/goshromanoff/status/1248333424458424322?s=19

Well great, now I have new emotional scars from that movie. Poor Nat. Poor Clint.

[swanpride]

Most likely because the other version needed less set up and is more creative than this one. Also, the outcome is less predictable.

[Morrigan2575]

IMO the theatrical cut version was better. Glad they went with that then this version

[VCRTracking]

49 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Most likely because the other version needed less set up and is more creative than this one. Also, the outcome is less predictable.

Don't get me wrong I liked the original. I liked that Natasha made the sacrifice(not just for Clint) but for the world. She wanted to make up for her past and that's what she did.

[Fukui San]

The original scene was the worst scene in the movie (one which I otherwise liked, btw).

The deleted scene makes Natasha go out like a hero and badass. Not a moron.

[swanpride]

...I am more bothered that her sacrifice doesn't get the same attention as Tony's. and that would have been a problem no matter what.

[Bill1978]

So I may be stupid here, but where did all those people Clint and Natasha fighting come from? This looks like more than an alternate scene but an entirely alternate plot. There appeas to be no Red Skull and I assume that was Thanos in the blurred background when Natasha sacrificed herself. Which means we have to have had a plot where Thanos knew where that stone was without Gamora. I agree that this scene felt more powerful for Natasha, but to get there I think would have been unnecessarily complicated from Thanos' point of view.

[Perfect Xero]

11 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

So I may be stupid here, but where did all those people Clint and Natasha fighting come from? This looks like more than an alternate scene but an entirely alternate plot. There appeas to be no Red Skull and I assume that was Thanos in the blurred background when Natasha sacrificed herself. Which means we have to have had a plot where Thanos knew where that stone was without Gamora. I agree that this scene felt more powerful for Natasha, but to get there I think would have been unnecessarily complicated from Thanos' point of view.

The original plan was apparently for Captain Marvel to go with them and for Thanos and his team to show up for a big fight scene.

[swanpride]

The Captain Marvel part was debunked.

[Mulva]

I can understand why Steve wanted to return to the 40's, but what I don't understand is why he didn't take Bucky with him.  It's not as if Bucky has any real ties to the present.  He's just as much as a man out of time as Steve, plus he'd have the remains of HYDRA trying to recover him, along with Ross wanting to put him in the Raft, and every government and intelligence agency wanting to use him as their asset.  Why would Steve just abandon him like that?

[Bruinsfan]

While I can see the emotional sense in including Bucky on the nostalgia tour, from a practical standpoint he's been living in Wakanda for years, apparently become friends with its rulers and respected by its people, and 1940s New York sure as hell isn't going to have comparable methods of deprogramming someone's brainwashing and providing therapy for their PTSD.

[supposebly]

Now, I can't watch the ending without thinking about what HISHE did about returning the stones.

How it should have ended: How Captain America should have returned the stones.

[Kel Varnsen]

13 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

1940s New York sure as hell isn't going to have comparable methods of deprogramming someone's brainwashing and providing therapy for their PTSD.

Not to mention the difficulty in trying to get tech support for that robotic arm back in those days.

[Danny Franks]

On 4/11/2020 at 9:27 AM, Perfect Xero said:

The original plan was apparently for Captain Marvel to go with them and for Thanos and his team to show up for a big fight scene.

Eh, sounds like one too many big fight scenes, for my liking. 

I didn't like that Natasha sacrificed herself, although I accept the narrative logic of it, but at least it was done as a small, personal moment between two close friends who both wanted to make that sacrifice. The last thing that was needed was even more of Thanos casually offing heroes.

As for Captain Marvel, I think the movie used her perfectly. She's a gamechanger without parallel and saving her for that late entrance, when all hope seems lost, was a crowning moment of awesome.

 

[xfuse]

13 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

1940s New York sure as hell isn't going to have comparable methods of deprogramming someone's brainwashing and providing therapy for their PTSD.

He was already deprogrammed and I doubt that he has made more connections than Steve who has been out in the world so much longer than him.

Steve going back to when ever he went. It was just crap add-on because Chris Evans contract was up.

[Spartan Girl]

It’s been two years and we’re still arguing about those last awful five minutes.

I would have happily traded that stupid Steggy dance for a scene of Professor Hulk besting Secretary Ross to a pulp.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[swanpride]

lol...me too. Hell, I would have preferred Steve just vanishing, without anyone knowing what happened to him, leaving it open if something went wrong or right or something in-between. It would have been a tragic ending, but then, Steve's story doesn't really feel finished the way Tony's did. (nor does Natasha's, btw).

[Spartan Girl]

Dying epically in the battle would have been a better end for him, (though maybe not the gruesome concept Art of Thanos chucking his severed head at the Avengers). He was always the guy willing to sacrifice himself, let him finish what he started. That would have brought his arc full circle.

[Kel Varnsen]

6 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

It’s been two years and we’re still arguing about those last awful five minutes.

I would have happily traded that stupid Steggy dance for a scene of Professor Hulk besting Secretary Ross to a pulp.

The more I think about it I think I am sort of fine with the scene on its own. But the fact that the Russo bros and the writers had to try and explain it (with conflicting explanations) kind of ruined it after the fact. I mean I don't mind a movie having an open ended ending which lets you fill in the blanks for what happens next. But if you are going to make that kind of movie own the damn thing and if people ask tell them it is up to the audience to decide.

[Perfect Xero]

I still think the best explanation is that the Steve on the bench at the end of the movie was 2012 Loki messing with them so they wouldn't go looking for the real Cap.

[Spartan Girl]

10 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I still think the best explanation is that the Steve on the bench at the end of the movie was 2012 Loki messing with them so they wouldn't go looking for the real Cap.

That actually would have been a pretty sweet way to tie Loki and Falcon and the Winter Soldier together!

[Danny Franks]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

That actually would have been a pretty sweet way to tie Loki and Falcon and the Winter Soldier together!

But it would have been annoying for anyone who wants to watch one of those shows but not the other. I really don't think I'm going to give Loki the time of day. Thanos killing him was one of the best bits of Infinity War. Talk about a character that has outlived its usefulness!

[xfuse]

13 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I still think the best explanation is that the Steve on the bench at the end of the movie was 2012 Loki messing with them so they wouldn't go looking for the real Cap.

For me, old man Steve is a Skrull but Loki messing with them would be fine too.

[ruby24]

I like Loki. I wished he hadn't died like that. I wanted him to stay around for Thor's movies as his redeemed self- he's the best character for Thor to interact with.

[Bruinsfan]

Whereas I was exhausted by Loki around the time of his second monologue in Avengers and was more than ready for him to go away. I suppose I'm okay with him being sequestered off in his own TV show, at least that will keep Hiddleston from cringeworthy PR romance antics intended to keep him in the public eye and convince people he's leading man material.

[Dandesun]

1 hour ago, Bruinsfan said:

Whereas I was exhausted by Loki around the time of his second monologue in Avengers and was more than ready for him to go away. I suppose I'm okay with him being sequestered off in his own TV show, at least that will keep Hiddleston from cringeworthy PR romance antics intended to keep him in the public eye and convince people he's leading man material.

Wow. Somebody's playing Surtur with that burn.

I found a lot of Loki's reasonings to be utter bullshit and holy shit his fangirls were a LOT. I felt that Ragnarok did a lot to balance out the dynamic of Thor and Loki. Finally Thor wasn't written as a lunkhead who kept falling for Loki's shit and their banter became a lot more enjoyable as opposed to Loki's so super duper smart and Thor's just muscle.

I'm interested in the Loki show because it has the potential to be weird on a big scale and I hope they go there.

[swanpride]

*shrugs* I thought that Loki was the best part of the first two Thor movies, mostly because I felt that there was more gravitas in his issue with internalised racism than in Thor being a spoiled brat. And I think Hiddleston is a lot of fun in the role. I actually wanted a Loki movie all along, with the idea that it would be a movie from the perspective of the villain, but then, we kind of got that with Thanos in Infinity War instead. The show looks like a lot of fun, I just hope that they don't mess around with the continuity too much.

[Spartan Girl]

I’d still like a series/short of Thor hanging out with the Guardians.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I’d still like a series/short of Thor hanging out with the Guardians.

The Guardians are going to be in Thor 4 so it’s possible. 

[Bruinsfan]

Thor and Rocket has been my favorite duo from the last two Avengers movies, so I sure hope we get to see them interacting more in the next movie.

[swanpride]

Rocket is fun with pretty much everyone.

[Danny Franks]

I'm really looking forward to seeing Rocket and Nebula display a strong working partnership and friendship, which the rest of the Guardians are alternately bemused by and scared of.

I'd rather the next Guardians movie doesn't focus so heavily on Quill. The others have stories that should be told, and Nebula is the unexpected breakout star, thanks to great performances from Karen Gillan. The hunt for Gamora should be just as much about Nebula wanting her sister back as it is about Quill wanting his girlfriend (and the former actually has a realistic chance of happening, given this Gamora actually knows who Nebula is).

[Cirien]

On 1/3/2021 at 2:23 AM, Kel Varnsen said:

Not to mention the difficulty in trying to get tech support for that robotic arm back in those days.

In the comics Wakanda were the ones who gifted Steve with the Shield. Not to mention in the What IF episode they apparently have early versions of the Iron Man Suits, and the Valkyrie apparently flew like four times the speed of sound. It's not impossible 

On 1/3/2021 at 2:09 AM, Bruinsfan said:

While I can see the emotional sense in including Bucky on the nostalgia tour, from a practical standpoint he's been living in Wakanda for years, apparently become friends with its rulers and respected by its people, and 1940s New York sure as hell isn't going to have comparable methods of deprogramming someone's brainwashing and providing therapy for their PTSD.

The therapy option was the lobotomy, and drugs, both of which Steve would heal from. 1940's New York couldn't deal with Bucky *or* Steve in terms of their mental health 

[Mulva]

On 1/3/2021 at 11:10 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

The more I think about it I think I am sort of fine with the scene on its own. But the fact that the Russo bros and the writers had to try and explain it (with conflicting explanations) kind of ruined it after the fact. I mean I don't mind a movie having an open ended ending which lets you fill in the blanks for what happens next. But if you are going to make that kind of movie own the damn thing and if people ask tell them it is up to the audience to decide.

The problem with Steve's ending is if he were in the original timeline the whole time he didn't rescue Bucky, stop Zola, prevent Tony from being orphaned, etc. which is monstrous and a complete contradiction of everything we've ever seen about him.  If he created a new timeline, he hijacked Alt!Steve's life, left the poor chump frozen, and essentially lied to Alt!Peggy everyday of their life together.  I'm sure Alt!Peggy wouldn't have been okay with idea that her Steve was an ice cube and the guy who showed up was from a parallel universe.  He doesn't come off well in either scenario.

[Starfish35]

33 minutes ago, Mulva said:

essentially lied to Alt!Peggy everyday of their life together.

I guess I don’t understand this assumption.  I mean, yes, having the second Steve in the other timeline creates problems; I’ve always said so.  But I’ve never understood the assumption (not just here; I’ve seen it several other places as well) that main timeline Steve would lie and deceive Peggy about the whole thing.  

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Mulva said:

If he created a new timeline, he hijacked Alt!Steve's life, left the poor chump frozen, and essentially lied to Alt!Peggy everyday of their life together. 

Or he went and unfroze the other Steve and Peggy had two boyfriends. 

[Mulva]

2 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Or he went and unfroze the other Steve and Peggy had two boyfriends. 

Well, he did admire his own ass.

[Raja]

I got the comic solution. Endgame Steve stays back and the first move is to stop Hydra's infiltration and get The First Avenger Steve out of the ice. However Endgame Steve falls in the line of duty in that attempt and while First Avenger Steve and Agent Carter do what they can two more heads keep emerging as they smack down the Hydra that they can identify.  Eventually Agent Carter's political support continues to drop as her anti Hydra mandate is looked at like the Commie fighters of her era.

[tv echo]

Avengers Endgame: New Funko Celebrates Chris Evans’ Old Captain America
By John Ross Bradford    September 11, 2021
https://thedirect.com/article/avengers-endgame-chris-evans-old-captain-america-funko 

Quote

Funko revealed on their latest live stream that they are releasing a Pop! celebrating the “Old Man” version of Steve Rogers that appeared in Avengers: Endgame .
*  *  *
This Pop! will be a part of Funko’s “Year of the Shield” event and will likely release before the end of 2021.

Edited September 12, 2021 by tv echo

[scriggle]

8 hours ago, tv echo said:

Avengers Endgame: New Funko Celebrates Chris Evans’ Old Captain America
By John Ross Bradford    September 11, 2021
https://thedirect.com/article/avengers-endgame-chris-evans-old-captain-america-funko 

Fuck no! Do not want. The whole thing's a damn travesty. 💩

[tv echo]

Avengers: Endgame Producer Admits All-Female Scene Got Changed Over Pandering Concerns
Klein Felt    October 24, 2021
https://thedirect.com/article/avengers-endgame-female-a-force-scene-reshoots-pandering 

Quote

As a part of the recently released The Story of Marvel Studios: The Making of the Marvel Cinematic Universe book, Avengers: Endgame producer Trinh Tran offered some insight into how the "Female A-Force" scene came together in the film.

According to Tran, writer Craig Kyle was inspired by seeing "Tessa Thompson, Brie Larson, Zoe Saldana, and others... bonding in front of him," so he came to the film producers asking to bring "those women together for [a] photo." It was seeing them all standing there that "spurred their collective talk about an all-female Super Hero film" and "led to the expansion of the finale battle featuring all of their characters in Endgame: ”

“During reception, [Evangeline] Lilly connected with her fellow empowered actresses like Tessa Thompson, Brie Larson, Zoe Saldana and others. Seeing them bonding in from of him, Craig Kyle was inspired to try and capture the moment for his daughter back home. He asked Trinh Tran if she could collect them all for a group shot. Bringing those women together for that photo is what spurred their collective talk about an all-female Super Hero film that they then pitched to Feige. And in the immediate future, it led to the expansion of the finale battle featuring all of their characters in Endgame.”
*  *  *
“One of the most memorable moments from the climax of Endgame underlined Marvel Studios’ to showing heroic acts performed by all people. The teaming up of Captain Marvel, Wanda Maximoff, Valkyrie, Okoye, Pepper Potts, Mantis, Shuri, The Wasp, Gamora, and Nebula was in the script for Endgame since day one. ‘We’ve always wanted a moment to really showcase and empower the women [in the MCU],’"
*  *  *
"However, when Endgame went into postproduction, the sheer joy for the sequence shifted to a more pensive place. In earlier cuts, Tran admits, ’When we started screen-testing it, there was a little concern for ‘Does it come off [as]pandering?’ Are we going to get people saying, ‘Oh you’re just putting that scene in there just to put the scene in there. Does it actually have a story to tell with the rest of the narrative?’ That was always a concern in the back of our heads.'"
*  *  *
"‘The other option would’ve been to cut it out completely,’ admits Tran. ’And to me, I was like ‘absolutely not. Let’s try to figure out a way to make it work.’"
*  *  *
"Ultimately, additional photography elevated the initial concept: The character were split up and brought into the moment in smaller groups. It was an emotional process of development and resolution for Tran, especially as she had her niece in the back of her mind. She wanted to give her - and all young girls - this heroic moment. ”

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by tv echo

[Bruinsfan]

Should have done more screen tests. They managed to shoot the scene of Black Widow, Okoye, and Wanda fighting together against Thanos' armies in Infinity War without making it feel contrived or jarring, so it was theoretically possible for Endgame as well.

[tv echo]

Marvel's Kevin Feige Reveals Which MCU Moment 'Emotionally Overwhelmed' Him
By Richard Nebens   October 25, 2021
https://thedirect.com/article/marvel-avengers-endgame-kevin-feige-mcu-box-office-opening-weekend-milestone 

Quote

In an excerpt from The Story of Marvel Studios: The Making of the Marvel Cinematic Universe , Marvel Studios President Kevin Feige spoke about the expectations behind the release of 2019's Avengers: Endgame . Specifically, Feige shared his hope that fans would simply go out to see this blockbuster movie.

Although Feige hoped Endgame would be bigger than Avengers: Infinity War , all he wanted was for the sequel to make "a dollar" more than its 2018 predecessor. He even admitted being afraid that Marvel had built up to such a big "grand finale" that nobody would see upon its release:

“My hope, at that point, was ‘Just make a dollar more than Infinity War so it can be bigger.’ Because my biggest fear of the past five years was throwing a grand finale and nobody coming and nobody caring, which can happen to franchises."

When Endgame destroyed box office records on its opening weekend in late April, Feige simply felt "emotionally overwhelmed" at just how much of a phenomenon it was worldwide. After putting in so much work to make the MCU everything it had become, Marvel's head executive seemed relieved and thrilled that fans responded so fervently to the culmination event:

“To exceed the expectations by such an enormous amount - I got a little emotionally overwhelmed in my house that morning. Just at how the world had responded to this thing that we'd worked so hard on for the past five years - not to mention the whole MCU for ten-plus years - but particularly Endgame.”

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by tv echo

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

Should have done more screen tests. They managed to shoot the scene of Black Widow, Okoye, and Wanda fighting together against Thanos' armies in Infinity War without making it feel contrived or jarring, so it was theoretically possible for Endgame as well.

I feel that most of the reasons why it feels contrived or jarring are exactly why it needed to be in the movie. It was a very deliberate scene and that shows but it was deliberate because things aren’t equal. The same scene with only male heroes wouldn’t cause anyone to blink because it happens all the time. 

It reminds of criticism that the Captain Marvel soundtrack was all female artists as though deliberately creating a all female soundtrack was a feminist agenda. But the reverse is so normal people don’t even notice. Anything that goes outside the norm is immediately noticeable and often comes off as pandering or contrived. In my opinion, the answer isn’t to scale it back to make it feel more natural but to continue deliberately changing things until it becomes the new normal. 

A few months ago I watched Endgame with my three nieces (6, 12 and 18) and they all named that scene as one of their favorite moments. It resonated with the audience it was intended for. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Guest

[Crs97]

2 hours ago, Dani said:

It reminds of criticism that the Captain Marvel soundtrack was all female artists as though deliberately creating a all female soundtrack was a feminist agenda. But the reverse is so normal people don’t even notice. Anything that goes outside the norm is immediately noticeable and often comes off as pandering or contrived. In my opinion, the answer isn’t to scale it back to make it feel more natural but to continue deliberately changing things until it becomes the new normal. 

A few months ago I watched Endgame with my three nieces (6, 12 and 18) and they all named that scene as one of their favorite moments. It resonated with the audience it was intended for. 

I totally agree!  I am reminded of the dearly missed RBG, who was once asked how many women needed to be on the Supreme Court for it to be considered “enough.”  She answered, “Nine.”  When everyone gasped, she simply noted that for 200+ years there were nine men and no one ever said it was too many.

[swanpride]

My issue with the scene was always more that it is a truly poor replacement for having actual female representation. It is one of the various reasons I still think that Carol should have gone to Voromir...because this way they could have portrayed a friendship between her and Natasha. But I actually do think that it needs to be there to "normalize" the notion of having only female heroes on screen.