Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[Wynterwolf]

1 minute ago, JessePinkman said:

Steve didn't get a woman, he got a life. Peggy was just a part of that.

He always had a life, they gave him a lifestyle, but again... this goes to the discussion of what makes someone a superhero.  

[benteen]

Did they really make Peggy's legacy all that great?  She and Howard Stark co-founded an organization that ended up being controlled by Nazis and nearly resulted in twenty million people being killed.  Who would want that as a legacy?

[JessePinkman]

13 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

He always had a life, they gave him a lifestyle, but again... this goes to the discussion of what makes someone a superhero.  

He's not been living what he considers a full life, he's been fulfilling a mission, fighting a seemingly endless war. When he completed the biggest battle he's ever faced and saw that the world had so many people to protect it he took a break and got the "life" he'd wanted with a woman he loved.

Quote

Did they really make Peggy's legacy all that great?  She and Howard Stark co-founded an organization that ended up being controlled by Nazis and nearly resulted in twenty million people being killed.  Who would want that as a legacy?

Only a a quarter of SHIELD was Hydra and SHIELD clearly did a lot of good as well. It's not like she had any part of Hydra anyway, why would she not be proud of the legacy the good side of SHIELD left?

Edited April 29, 2019 by JessePinkman

[calliope1975]

I'm so glad Cap gave the shield to Sam. Rewatching the Infinity War scene where Buck gets his new arm, that poor guy says, "Where's the fight?" with all the enthusiasm of a guy who just wants to hang out and chill with goats. He looks so resigned and saddened that I hope the Sam and Bucky adventures lets him find some peace. 

[Starfish35]

39 minutes ago, JessePinkman said:

Steve didn't get a woman, he got a life. Peggy was just a part of that.

Well that’s the problem. It doesn’t sound like much of a life if he’s spending it in hiding and seclusion so that he doesn’t mess up the timeline.  I mean, for some people, that might be a perfect life.  But Steve has always always been presented as someone who couldn’t just stand by when something wrong was going on.  So for him to do so now just so he gets to be with Peggy?  That just seems so wrong and contrary to who he is.  

[blueray]

The more I think about it, I realize that Steve's ending doesn't make sense for the character. Obviously the time travel stuff screws up the timeline. But Steve had more than just his "duty". And while he may have loved Peggy he hadn't seen her for like 12 years at this point (from Steve's pov). I fell like he would have more connections with the people in the present that a woman he once knew that long ago. Also they hadn't even gone on a date yet, how did he know they'd work. Also Steve is hardly the same person he was when he left, he seen and done some shit. I wish they just had him go back and dance with her and return the present.

Edited April 29, 2019 by blueray

[AES13]

My impression from the admittedly confused explanation in the movie, was that every time you travel to the past, you are creating an alternate branch off the main timeline.  Steve returns the stones so those branches are re-absorbed in the main timeline and then elects to create an alternate where he gets to have a life with Peggy.  Given Steve's nature, I would expect him to have rescued Bucky, destroyed the remnants of Hydra, de-segregated the States as much as he could have, and started Howard on the path of good fatherhood by providing a stellar example.  I assume that would have taken him a year or two. 😉  After Peggy's death, he returned to his own timeline to pass over the shield and the alternate branch was again re-absorbed.

I can't explain how this would work but I think that is what we are supposed to believe happened and I am willing to hand wave a lot in order to see Chris Evans' Steve Rogers finally get some happiness.  I also believe (with no evidence, of course) that he had discussed it with Bucky beforehand.

[JessePinkman]

32 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Well that’s the problem. It doesn’t sound like much of a life if he’s spending it in hiding and seclusion so that he doesn’t mess up the timeline.  I mean, for some people, that might be a perfect life.  But Steve has always always been presented as someone who couldn’t just stand by when something wrong was going on.  So for him to do so now just so he gets to be with Peggy?  That just seems so wrong and contrary to who he is.

It's an alternate timeline.

[Fukui San]

Just saw this today. Still processing, leaning towards "Really Liked It" with some dust in the eyes towards the end. There were cliches and such and eye rolling moments, but there were feels and action that mostly made sense-ish and I'm on board.

So, this post Snap/Unsnap universe. We have 1/2 the universe having lived through the past 5 years, and the other half just reappearing not having aged a day from the Snapture. We got Tony Stark's daughter who's 4 but Peter Parker still in high school. Marvel BETTER have Kurt Busiek contracted for the rest of his damn life writing all the scenes that must have taken place in this universe that the MCU itself will never cover. That's all I have to say. Astro City this thing up because it's fucking weird worldbuilding and I bet the movies won't even mention it again.

Speaking of Kurt Busiek, it occurs to me that this would have been the perfect way to backdoor pilot The Thunderbolts into the MCU. In the Five Years Later verse, just have a mention or two of a new group called The Thunderbolts fighting crime. Have them make a cameo in the final fight. And leave that for their own movie.

Red Skull: "Natasha and Clint, one of you must sacrifice yourself for the Soul Stone."

<Pause>

Clint: "Well, I'm the most boring character in the MCU, even after they made me into a Zach Snyder character. So it should be me.

<Pause>

Natasha: "OK"

The end scene should have been Sharon Carter learning that Steve went back in time to boink her aunt.

[calliope1975]

40 minutes ago, AES13 said:

I also believe (with no evidence, of course) that he had discussed it with Bucky beforehand.

I think the evidence was "I'm going to miss you, buddy," or however it was worded. Why would Bucky miss Cap for the 5 seconds he would be gone? He totally knew. 

[Taryn74]

12 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I think the evidence was "I'm going to miss you, buddy," or however it was worded. Why would Bucky miss Cap for the 5 seconds he would be gone? He totally knew. 

Ha!  I just snorted on myself.  Good point.

[Kromm]

17 hours ago, Raja said:

They are saying Spider-Man Far From Home is the last of this MCU phase. I got a feeling Peter,  Ned, and Nick Fury tell the story of the snaptured returning to find half of their peers 5 years more mature.

MJ and Flash are also not five years older.  May might be, but either way there's big plot issues with her and Peter either way.

[Crs97]

Our family was talking about it again (still); for those who enjoy the movies, Marvel has been a great gift for conversation starters with teens.  Anyway, the boys reminded me that Steve took the hammer with him to replace the stones.  Since he came back without it, I am taking that as proof of an alternate timelines.  Tony Stark lives!

[Kromm]

4 hours ago, galaxygirl76 said:

Were my ears deceiving me or did Scarlet Witch's Russian accent appear again in the few lines she had?

Sad to say it did not.  And I thought it should have.  The whole switcharoo with that was so silly, and it would have been gratifying to see it show up in a time of stress, to show she was putting on an American accent to fit in.

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

Our family was talking about it again (still); for those who enjoy the movies, Marvel has been a great gift for conversation starters with teens.  Anyway, the boys reminded me that Steve took the hammer with him to replace the stones.  Since he came back without it, I am taking that as proof of an alternate timelines.  Tony Stark lives!

I thought he put it back on Asgard when he returned the Reality Stone.

[Kromm]

11 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

Our family was talking about it again (still); for those who enjoy the movies, Marvel has been a great gift for conversation starters with teens.  Anyway, the boys reminded me that Steve took the hammer with him to replace the stones.  Since he came back without it, I am taking that as proof of an alternate timelines.  Tony Stark lives!

He can't come back with it. For the same reason he needed to put the Infinity Stones back, he needed to put the Hammer back. The plot of several movies beyond when Fat Thor took it from the past include Skinny Thor using it.

Then again, the plot of even MORE movies depended on Thanos, Gamora and Nebula being around and THAT wasn't possible any longer.  So the only way this works is if Steve went back to an alternate timeline, but confusingly crossed back over to the original Timeline before that last meeting.

And even more confusingly, now Loki is running around with some time-split-off version of the Cosmic Cube--containing another version of the same Stone Steve returned--which by definition actually had to be given over to HYDRA.  Unless he DIDN'T give it to HYDRA.  Why would he, since he already had to be in another Timeline?  He HAD to be, because even if his own presence didn't make that so, the later absence of Thanos, Gamora and Nebula would.  So why NOT change things?  Seemingly nothing he did would adversely affect the past of the Timeline WE'VE seen the movies in.  The only real magic trick here was how Cap returned to that bench in "our" Timeline. It makes no sense no matter how you cut it.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Kromm

[Jeebus Cripes]

1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

Well that’s the problem. It doesn’t sound like much of a life if he’s spending it in hiding and seclusion so that he doesn’t mess up the timeline.  I mean, for some people, that might be a perfect life.  But Steve has always always been presented as someone who couldn’t just stand by when something wrong was going on.  So for him to do so now just so he gets to be with Peggy?  That just seems so wrong and contrary to who he is.  

Yes, word to all of this. I'm in agreement with the poster upthread who mentioned he should have gone back, got his dance, then returned. This would have caused the least amount of timeline weirdness, and it's super sweet, and it doesn't screw up Cap's arc.

Just now, Crs97 said:

Our family was talking about it again (still); for those who enjoy the movies, Marvel has been a great gift for conversation starters with teens.  Anyway, the boys reminded me that Steve took the hammer with him to replace the stones.  Since he came back without it, I am taking that as proof of an alternate timelines.  Tony Stark lives!

He needed to replace that hammer back in Thor: The Dark World. 

[anna0852]

Did anyone see this video Pratt posted in IG? 

Someone was playing with his phone on a closed set...

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bw0zRW6lYh3/?igshid=wflj8vsshm2t

[Jeebus Cripes]

4 minutes ago, Kromm said:

He can't come back with it. For the same reason he needed to put the Infinity Stones back, he needed to put the Hammer back. The plot of several movies beyond when Fat Thor took it from the past include Skinny Thor using it.

Then again, the plot of even MORE movies depended on Thanos, Gamora and Nebula being around and THAT wasn't possible any longer.  So the only way this works is if Steve went back to an alternate timeline, but confusingly crossed back over to the original Timeline before that last meeting.

My damned head hurts. 

[Kromm]

2 minutes ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

My damned head hurts. 

Indeed.

[Wynterwolf]

And from that article, it sounds like M&M don't understand how their time travel rules work either.  

[Jeebus Cripes]

19 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

And from that article, it sounds like M&M don't understand how their time travel rules work either.  

I'm pissed that they weren't asked about Steve on the bench in particular. I need to know what their intention was here, because there's only one right answer IMO, and I'm almost certain these jokers are gonna say the opposite. I can't abide any version of Steve Rogers just sitting on his ass while his best friend is tortured for decades. Alternate timeline is the only plausible and sane explanation. 

[Kromm]

Just now, Wynterwolf said:

And from that article, it sounds like M&M don't understand how their time travel rules work either.  

Their time travel rules make no sense. I've had a day to think about this since I saw the movie and the ONLY fanwank I can come up with is this:

1.) Steve goes back to the past to return the Stones, and presumably Thor's Hammer.

2.) Steve decided to stay in the past with Peggy. This already starts a Timeline split, regardless of what does or doesn't later happen with Thanos, Gamora and Nebula--or for that matter Loki running off with his own version of the Cube  (or even something as small as Steve fighting his own former self).

3.) Steve lives a long life. He had to return The Time Stone so Dormammu is defeated. But did he REALLY have to return the other Stones?  Take the Space Stone aka The Tesseract.  Would he really want to put in back in HYDRA's hands?  Since he himself has changed the Timeline does he really know for sure that things wouldn't go down differently with the chain of possession of it after they get it?  We know in the prime MCU universe that it had to make it's way eventually to Asgard or Hela never would have been defeated but does Cap know that?  Especially in a changed universe?    Anyway, these are interesting things to think about, but no matter what Steve does with the other Stones besides the Time Stone, he's in a different Universe, If not through his own actions, inevitably because either Thanos & Co. eventually disappear from it, or they DON'T (because they're other Universe duplicates) and if they don't doesn't he wind up in the exact situation again in THAT universe where the Decimation happens... and then how does he survive THAT version of it without the same solution being applied to that Universe?

This leaves only one solution I  can think of:

Time and reality Traveling Cap is loaned the use of the Reality Stone by whoever has it when he crosses over. This I think would be the Stone allowing him to jump realities back to the original one.

[Guest]

I just watched it again which helped me formulate my thoughts. Focusing on the plot holes was easy but processing the epicness is more difficult. 

The actors were all amazing. It’s mind boggling that marvel was able to put together a cast this large and for no one to get lost in it. 

I’m most impressed with the fact that they nailed the moments that could have so easily face planted. Cap with the hammer and Avengers Assemble had so much build up and somehow they exceeded every expectation. I just want to watch that final battle on a loop. 

Returning to the battle of New York was the other big moment that could have gone so badly but was amazing instead. Hulk fake smashing, America’s ass, Cap fighting Cap, Hail Hydra, and Hulk on the stairs were all perfect. One smaller moment that I loved is that when we first see the Ancient One she is attacking the Chitauri flying above her.

I’m don’t think I’m ever going to okay with the story issues. It is apparent that the story existed simply to move the players into place rather than maintaining any kind of internal logic. The resulting plot holes are massive and numerous. I’m mostly past the time travel and Steve’s decision making no sense.

The thing currently bothering me is the use of Pym particles. After repeatedly harping on there only being enough for one round trip each somehow both Nebula’s, Gamora, Thanos and an entire army time traveled on Nebula’s remaining supply and without any specialized equipment. 

I wonder if the level of secrecy is part of the problem with the story. Very few people saw the full script so there were fewer opportunities for anyone to bring up potential problems. Most of the issues could have been solved or minimized very easily. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Guest

[Jeebus Cripes]

I very much enjoyed the hi-jinks and shenanigans going on with the battle of New York heist. For all my bitching about the end, I was immensely entertained throughout the movie. 

I'm haunted by Nat's death. At the time when it happened, I was shook but assumed this would be undone somehow. Now I can't stop seeing her beautiful, very dead corpse at the bottom of that cliff. 

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

Yes, word to all of this. I'm in agreement with the poster upthread who mentioned he should have gone back, got his dance, then returned. This would have caused the least amount of timeline weirdness, and it's super sweet, and it doesn't screw up Cap's arc.

Now THAT I would have been fine with! He gets that one dance with Peggy, he tell someone he has to go, she says she understands and tells him to go live his life, and he goes back to the present. That would have been perfect closure.

[galaxygirl76]

I was distracted a bit by Cassie being aged up too much for a five year jump.

[catrice2]

Although I was o.k. with Tony Stark, let me just say that RDJ has always been one of my favorites and I have always rooted for him.  When he had all his troubles, I always said he would rebound.  Given the right material, he is an amazing actor, and it just seems so effortless for him.

We have known for a couple of years that both Chris Evans and RDJ had contracts that were expiring, and quite frankly both were giving signs of being ready to do something else. 

I figure out a long time ago that Captain America was going back to his time with Peggy, I just didn't know how it would happen until Ant Man and then I was sure.  No surprise there. Also no surprise with RDJ. 

I was only slightly surprised by Black Widow. 

I was disappointed with the lack of action scenes and how little time was spent with newer characters.  I can't say that I have ever been a Hawkeye fan...I don't dislike him, but I don't see how he needs so much screen time or character development. 

Everything just felt slow.  After all these movies I still don't know exactly what Scarlett Witch does, or is capable of. 

The "girl" scene seemed forced. 

I think they really missed an opportunity with Thor.  Instead of going for all laughs, I think it would have been great to have him be just a walking wounded.  Not everyone who suffers loss like that gains weight or drinks. They drink, but many are functioning alcoholics and/or severely depressed people who seem to function just fine in the world, which is why it is such an epidemic. People also fear being mocked, so they don't get the help they need.   It just seemed forced and out of place, especially when Bruce Banner was shown in contrast as having found peace with himself. It was also difficult to believe that the rest of them would not have tried to help him over the years.   I know it is just a movie, but they should have found different material for comic relief. 

I also don't think Jeremy Renner did a good job.  Paul Rudd was great. 

[Dee]

‘Avengers: Endgame’: Domestic, Overseas & Global Box Office Records – List

Quote

Disney/Marvel’s Avengers: Endgame set a host of new box office records this weekend, opening to a jaw-dropping $350M domestic, $859M overseas and $1.2B worldwide. The list of all-time milestones is likely to grow as the Anthony and Joe Russo-helmed emotion-and action-packed pic continues play around the globe. Below, we’ve compiled a rundown of select records from this weekend, which we’ll update with further achievements for the blockbuster 22nd MCU movie.

DOMESTIC
Biggest opening weekend – $350M
First film to cross $300M opening weekend
Fastest film to $100M – 17 hours
Highest Thursday previews – $60M
Biggest single day – $156.7M (April 26)
Biggest all-time Saturday – $109M (April 27)
Biggest all-time Sunday – $84.3M (April 28)
Widest release ever – 4,662 theaters
Biggest IMAX Marvel opening weekend – $26.5M

GLOBAL
Biggest opening weekend – $1.209B
First film to cross $1B on opening weekend – $1.209B
Fastest film to $1B – 5 days
Biggest IMAX opening weekend – $91.5M
Highest 3D opening weekend – $540M

INTERNATIONAL
Biggest opening weekend ever – $859M (54 material markets)

China
Biggest opening weekend – $330.5M (RMB 2.22B)
Biggest opening day – $107.8M (RMB 725M, including midnights)
Biggest single day, excluding midnights – $81.7M (RMB 550M)
Fastest film to RMB 2B
Biggest IMAX opening – $42.4M

Edited April 29, 2019 by Dee

[JessePinkman]

8 minutes ago, galaxygirl76 said:

I was distracted a bit by Cassie being aged up too much for a five year jump.

She's 15 now, the actress who plays her is 17 but did come across somewhat older. I think the younger actress (who is 11 but was probably 9 when they shot AATW) seems younger than her age so it's all a little weird.

Believe it or not, the actuals for the domestic weekend were $357,115,007, nearly 100 million more than Infinity War. Insanity.

Edited April 29, 2019 by JessePinkman

[Guest]

8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

So, the timeline has just become Jeremy Bearimy? 🙂 

Then Gamora and Natasha might be where nothing never occurs (aka the dot over the i). 

2 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

I think the evidence was "I'm going to miss you, buddy," or however it was worded. Why would Bucky miss Cap for the 5 seconds he would be gone? He totally knew. 

I felt that Chris Evans and Sebastian Stan played the entire ending like they both knew. Sam was clearly worried and confused but Bucky seems calm. Bucky immediately starts looking around and when he spots Steve on the bench he sends Sam over but hangs back. 

1 hour ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

I'm pissed that they weren't asked about Steve on the bench in particular. I need to know what their intention was here, because there's only one right answer IMO, and I'm almost certain these jokers are gonna say the opposite. I can't abide any version of Steve Rogers just sitting on his ass while his best friend is tortured for decades. Alternate timeline is the only plausible and sane explanation. 

I almost don’t want that question answered because I do think the plan was for it to be a causal time loop and I’d rather not have that confirmed. This movie and several others fall apart with anything other than an alternate timeline. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Guest
Because eye and i are not the same thing.

[VCRTracking]

[nilyank]

6 hours ago, benteen said:

Did they really make Peggy's legacy all that great?  She and Howard Stark co-founded an organization that ended up being controlled by Nazis and nearly resulted in twenty million people being killed.  Who would want that as a legacy?

If only she had a superhero husband that could warn her about the evil Hydra hiding out in SHIELD and cleaning it up before they ruin everything.

[tennisgurl]

7 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

Where's the fight?" with all the enthusiasm of a guy who just wants to hang out and chill with goats.

I hope that the Falcon and Bucky show is just Falcon coming back from superhero stuff to go to Buckys Goat Yoga farm to hang out and do some sun salutations.

[Lantern7]

While I'm not thinking of plot holes . . . has anyone from Legends of Tomorrow goofed on Endgame in social media? Last year, I remember at least one person from the show offering to have the Legends go back in time and fix the Avengers' mess.

One question: are there places where one can find images from the movie? I'm not looking to spoil the unwary . . . I collect sketches, and I'm thinking of seeking out artists to sketch Hulk Banner, Thicc Thor, and/or Captain America with Mjolnir (like this sketch of Vision with the hammer I got back in 2015). Thus, I would need references.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Lantern7

[festivus]

I don't even know what to say still. I saw this yesterday but I didn't post because it probably would have been a rambling incoherent mess. I enjoyed the movie, loved some of the moments like Steve with mew mew, yet it ruined Steve for me. I don't even know what to say about Tony and Nat. I don't like that we're 5 years in the future now and we have a different person playing Cassie. I love the original little girl. Honestly this whole movie bums me out so much. The alternate timelines thing just breaks my brain. I don't want to have to think that hard about things like Steve going back to Peggy or Nebula killing her past self or even past Thanos being dusted in 2023 and what that means. I hate it. Maybe I'll feel differently someday but right now I just feel let down.

The best thing about these last two Avenger movies has been Thor/Chris Hemsworth. He's awesome. I look forward to Asguardians of the Galaxy. That's about all the nice things I can think of to say right now so I'll slink back to my corner.

[DkNNy79]

Finally saw it on Sunday with hubby at my local rinky dink theater.  I would like to see if one more time in 3D - just have to find a theater that offers that.

I enjoyed it.  Tony/Iron Man is my favorite marvel character so I was sad about his passing.  I was spoiled going in so while I definitely shed tears I think it lessened the impact.  I thought the movie had a nice pace.  At one point I checked my watch and 2 hours had already passed and the last hour is all action packed anyway.

Hubby is the real Marvel/DC fan.  I never really paid attention until Iron Man.  He didn't enjoy it as much as I did.  He's not happy with Tony dying.  He prefers to stick to the comic book storylines where Tony lives on to train/mentor the new/younger Avengers.

[festivus]

On 4/29/2019 at 12:11 AM, Wynterwolf said:

More late night thinky thoughts…

One thing I think maybe a lot of people aren’t realizing in regards to Steve and Bucky is that a great deal of the SteveBucky fandom connects to them through a trauma recovery narrative, and having someone in your life that will fight for you ‘til the end of the line’ even if you’re broken, or messy, and other people shy away from you, or are afraid of you, or if you’re afraid of yourself. 

It’s about that emotional bond, and so having Steve essentially reject a partially recovered Bucky for Peggy (no matter how much that seems to make sense) hurts in a deep down, punch in the gut kind of way and I think a lot of people weren’t prepared for quite how dismissive they were going to be of Steve and Bucky’s relationship. 

And the way that Bucky was basically just a statue, essentially only there to allow Steve to sever their connection was thoughtless and cruel, even as it was unintentional to be so.  So you know, if you know someone who is reacting emotionally or lashing out about that part of the movie, and you think it’s weird and stupid, maybe just try to have a little empathy and compassion and give them a little space to grieve.

This is exactly how I relate to Steve and Bucky. Most people here that read my posts know I'm not a shipper(and probably roll their eyes at me a lot, lol) but I had a lot invested in their friendship and I felt so let down by the end of this movie. I have a best friend from my childhood that I would burn down the world for. I resent the fact that so many times romantic love takes precedence over platonic. I've had a really bad last couple of years and so has my friend and we have been there for each other. I could never sever that connection. I've seen it happen so much in my life though that people will choose romantic love over their friends. I think I must be the weirdo.

Yes, I realize that people are happy for Steve that he got his dance and life with Peggy and I wouldn't take that from them but this movie ruined Steve's character and arc for me. Just remember that every person is bringing their own experiences to how they view this movie.

So I can enjoy this movie but still be let down by it at the same time. 

[Wynterwolf]

5 minutes ago, festivus said:

I resent the fact that so many times romantic love takes precedence over platonic.

This times a THOUSAND!!!!  

They could have had the perfect ending, by Steve getting his dance and having a few actual words with PastPeggy (allowing her to be an actual person, with thoughts and a point of view), and then coming back renewed, finally able to live his life in a healthy balance, passing on the shield, and that responsibility, to Sam. 

But instead they had to make Steve willingly abandon the family he found in the future, for a ghost from his past.  

[festivus]

11 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

But instead they had to make Steve willingly abandon the family he found in the future, for a ghost from his past.  

I wish Steve would have taken the life he had NOW and made something of it. As a person struggling with depression that sends a much more powerful message to me. Yes, I know it's just a movie and I'm bringing my own shit into it. I'm happy that other people enjoyed it for what it is. 

[Raja]

14 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

This times a THOUSAND!!!!  

They could have had the perfect ending, by Steve getting his dance and having a few actual words with PastPeggy (allowing her to be an actual person, with thoughts and a point of view), and then coming back renewed, finally able to live his life in a healthy balance, passing on the shield, and that responsibility, to Sam. 

But instead they had to make Steve willingly abandon the family he found in the future, for a ghost from his past.  

What family? He had a special operations combat unit in the  future. A man out of his time, pop music, slang , extended family, etc. Bucky being the other man from the past probably would have also gone back to their time if given the chance.

[Wynterwolf]

3 hours ago, festivus said:

Yes, I know it's just a movie and I'm bringing my own shit into it.

But that's what storytelling is for!!!  That's it's whole purpose, to connect with 'our own shit', and help us explore things, and learn things, and be exposed to things from other perspectives.  That's literally what it's for and why it's so powerful!!  So don't discount your feelings, they were careless with the privilege they were given.  This is on them, not on you for how what they did made you feel.   

eta:  I also like this interpretation of what Steve and Natasha did better than what the writers said (ITS MORE IN CHARACTER):

Edited April 30, 2019 by Wynterwolf

[Taryn74]

2 hours ago, festivus said:

This is exactly how I relate to Steve and Bucky. Most people here that read my posts know I'm not a shipper(and probably roll their eyes at me a lot, lol) but I had a lot invested in their friendship and I felt so let down by the end of this movie.

I realize we're all just debating our theories with each other at this point, heh, and part of me really hopes the writers never definitively make anything canon so we can interpret it the way we want to, but IMO the only way Bucky could have been so at peace with Steve as he was leaving and then wasn't surprised he came back as an old man, is if he knew Steve planned to create an alternate timeline and stay there NOT ONLY to have a life with Peggy but also to do everything he could to take down Hydra, rescue Alt!Bucky before he was ever turned into the Winter Soldier, and let him have a fulfilling life as well.  They couldn't go back and change THIS past (because of timey wimey rules and all) but they could make things better for their alternative selves.

Nothing else fits any of these characters, again just IMO.

[Wynterwolf]

Damn, this article fucking nails it.  

Quote

This is a strange, selfish, and un-Steve Rogers like thing to do and insults both of the people who are closest to him. Peggy, we know from the Agent Carter TV series and from The Winter Soldier, lived a full life, of which she was proud. She tells Steve that she lived her life and her only regret is that he didn’t get to live his. She had a family (a member of which Steve kisses in Civil War), she builds S.H.I.E.L.D, she is a boss, and a powerful woman. And in ten seconds, Endgame relegates her to “Steve’s wife,” showing her as an object of his affections, merely there to fulfill some strange, domestic fantasy which neither one of them has ever expressed an interest in living out. Peggy has no lines in Endgame, she is there to be peered at and held by Steve. She is not a real character. She has not even had any meaningful character evolution with Steve. She is a woman he kissed once, and now she is his wife. And that’s all she is allowed to be.

[festivus]

7 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

I realize we're all just debating our theories with each other at this point, heh, and part of me really hopes the writers never definitively make anything canon so we can interpret it the way we want to, but IMO the only way Bucky could have been so at peace with Steve as he was leaving and then wasn't surprised he came back as an old man, is if he knew Steve planned to create an alternate timeline and stay there NOT ONLY to have a life with Peggy but also to do everything he could to take down Hydra, rescue Alt!Bucky before he was ever turned into the Winter Soldier, and let him have a fulfilling life as well.  They couldn't go back and change THIS past (because of timey wimey rules and all) but they could make things better for their alternative selves.

That makes sense that Bucky would want Steve to be happy. What happens to the Steve in the alternate timeline? Is he left in the ice so that when he gets taken out he has no-one? Is there no Steve but there's a Bucky and a Peggy? Does this Steve just take that one's place? I honestly don't understand any of this alternate timeline stuff and it all makes my brain hurt and it makes me sad. Nothing about that ending made sense to me.

[benteen]

I doubt Peggy would have just been "Steve's wife" in the new timeline.  I expect she still would have made a life and career for herself.  Criticizing the writers for not giving her any dialogue in Endgame, that's fair.

[festivus]

20 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Damn, this article fucking nails it.  

It does. It helps me understand why this movie is making me feel so empty even though I loved Thor's, Rocket's, Nebula's and Tony's story in both this movie and Infinity War. The friendship of 100 years seemed to not matter at all. I don't even know what to say about Nat. I haven't even started to deal with my feelings on that yet.

eta: That article made me cry which is something the movie failed to do. Even Tony's death I was just numb.

Edited April 30, 2019 by festivus

[Wynterwolf]

1 hour ago, festivus said:

That article made me cry which is something the movie failed to do. Even Tony's death I was just numb.

In a way, I think that article gives us a sort of celebration of their bond that we should have had on screen.  

[Guest]

7 hours ago, festivus said:

I resent the fact that so many times romantic love takes precedence over platonic. 

This was a problem I had throughout the movie. Steve/Peggy were a tragic heartbreaking story because they never had a chance to even try. When Steve called her the love of his life I rolled my eyes. I had a similar WTF moment when Scott was entirely focused on bringing back Hope. Steve/Peggy and Scott/Hope are interesting relationships but neither of them have been developed enough to be written this way. 

Meanwhile all the relationship that were beautifully developed like Tony/Pepper, Steve/Bucky, Steve/Sam, Steve/Natasha, Natasha/Clint, Thor/Everyone he loved, Wanda/Vision, and Quill/Gamora have, at least for now, been give sad endings. 

Poor Thor has lost everything and is told to suck it up because he can’t go back but somehow Steve gets to do just that. Hell, even Steve and Peggy’s journey through Civil War as essentially been nullified. 

I really do love the Russo’s Marvel movies but the way they handle relationships and woman is problematic for me. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Guest

[VCRTracking]

‘Avengers: Endgame’: The Screenwriters Answer Every Question You Might Have

Edited April 30, 2019 by VCRTracking