S05.E09: Elseworlds Part 1

[angora]

8 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

It does make me sad that Perry White (I am assuming Lois/Clark work at the Daily Planet and that Perry runs it) would pay Clark more then Lois (assuming that she's been there a lot longer then he has) and that she'd even stand for that.

Or that Clark would stand for it.

I really liked it and I also didn't.  I feel like it was a better crossover episode than Flash episode.  It was nice to start out with just a few characters from the other shows - while I like seeing the different characters interacting, it doesn't always serve the story well when they immediately throw everyone at each other.  At the same time, they didn't just do a straight Flash episode with a crossover-intro tacked onto the end, like they did with Supergirl during the crossover a couple years ago.  That said, while I liked the cross-show interactions, Team Flash was far below their A game.  A lot of them felt out of character to me, and that made it harder to actually buy their reactions to Barry and Oliver's insistence about the body swap.

But still, there was a lot I liked.  Oliver figuring out Barry's powers, Barry having fun with Oliver's abilities, the tag-team on the prison break, and Barry convincing Iris who he was.  And OMG, I was all about EVERYTHING about Kara, Clark, and Lois on the Smallville farm.  Kara-Clark is one of my favorite seldom-featured relationships in the Arrowverse, and I could watch entire episodes of those two just hanging out and bonding together.  (Confession:  with the caveat that the CW shows, other than the Dark Knight trilogy, have been my biggest exposure to the DC universe, I never fully "got" Superman until I saw Tyler Hoechlin's version.  As soon as he first showed up on Supergirl, the character just clicked for me.)  Loved them talking about Argo, loved Clark just casually holding up the truck while Lois worked on it, and loved Barry's realization that Clark was THAT cousin of Kara's.  I thought the writing on Lois was pretty much perfect; not quite sure about the actress yet, but I'm prepared to warm up to her.

I was super excited to see that glimpse of Gotham at the end.  Bring on Batwoman!

[KillahBee007]

3 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I'm not going to watch this garbage esp with no Felicity so can you pretty please help a girl out and tell me what face he was sporting when he heard this. 

Kicked puppy? Stupid goldfish? 

Kicked puppy with a side of goldfish. 

[Velocity23]

 When Savitar was a plotline for s3 of the flash but only Oliver has darkness inside of him

[quarks]

Rushed, even for a show called The Flash. But I mostly liked it.

Good things:

1. The Smallville theme song! Unexpected and very cool.

2. It only took five seasons, but finally, we know how people in Barry's secret prison go to the bathroom! Though I'm a little concerned that Dr. Caitlyn didn't insist on some sort of sink or other handwashing device. Sanitation is also important, Barry!

3. Iris has learned how to cook!

4. Both Amell and Gustin were really funny here. Not entirely in character, but really funny.

5. Barry's payback from the first crossover. Hee. I get why Oliver was annoyed, but hee.

6. "Cat Grant is scarier." Hee.

7. The bit about Barry always needing motivational speeches? Also hee. 

8. Like that Barry and Oliver are having to act like each other in order to access each other's powers.

9. LOVED that Oliver's first response was to assume that Barry screwed something up.

10. Superman, Supergirl, Oliver and Barry popping out of the portal was pretty cool.

Questionable things:

1. As multiple people pointed out, Team Flash has seen bizarre things on a weekly basis, including a telepathic gorilla, time travel, aliens, and yet, they're skeptical that Oliver and Barry might have changed bodies?

2. So, Iris and Felicity do talk and are actual friends. Why didn't we get to see this or at least have this mentioned on either show, especially since they seem to be pretty much each other's only friends? (I know, Felicity sorta has Not-Laurel now and Flash has been trying to tell me that Caitlin and Iris are friends, but these are not exactly deeply convincing friendships.)

3. How on earth is Sherloque's ex-wife on Earth 38 expected to cash a check from Earth 1? While I'm asking, how on any earth did Sherloque's ex-wife end up on Kara's Earth? I know Kara's earth is taking in aliens which is all very nice but are they also taking in people from other worlds? 

4. Why wasn't Oliver more suspicious of Sherloque Wells? Or is that just a plot we're ignoring right now because crossover? 

5. Clark just kept his dad's motorcycle around? Because...I don't think he really needed it that much.

6. Is that Earth portal device thingy tied to Kara in some way? Because otherwise I am not sure how Oliver and Barry ended up at the Smallville farm instead of in National City or the DEO or even the Fortress of Solitude.

7. Loved the callback to the first crossovers, but where did Barry find crossbows at the Kent Farm? The Kents really have never seemed like little crossbow trap people in any version/incarnation.

8. Team Flash. Barry shows up, claiming to be Oliver, and then drags in Oliver, pretending to be Barry, and no one thinks of contacting Felicity and Diggle for help? Or even to ask if something's happening in Star City that might explain all of this? I know you didn't want the characters on the show, but a quick "I can't reach anyone on Team Arrow on the phone" would have been great, especially after you name dropped Wild Dog.

9. Did we all forget, Iris, that Barry pulled the same stunt on you that Felicity is upset about with Oliver?

10. Glad that Iris was able to tell Oliver that yes, Felicity was really hurt, but...this continues the ongoing trend of Flash presenting Oliver as the antihero semi-bad angry grey guy and Barry as the good, bright, cheery light guy, and, beyond the problem that this is no longer really true for either character (and to be fair, has never really been true for Barry), can I point out, again, Flash, that Barry is the guy who has the power to alter the lives and destinies of other people? That just this season, Barry is the one who allowed Nora to stay in the current timeline, thus messing up the current timeline and getting people killed, while - at the same time - Oliver was unearthing evidence of prison abuse and eventually, after getting beaten up multiple times, ended up stopping some very real prison abuse?

Flash, I know Oliver is a serial killer and can frequently be a major jerk. But presenting this as a "I channel my anger" vs "I channel my joy" doesn't just vastly oversimplify both characters, it ignores a very real question. Who's more heroic - the guy who can run fast enough to cancel his mistakes, or the non-superpowered guy sacrificing/losing nearly everything?

The comics Flash is based on usually said the second.

11. On a related note:

This has now been seven straight seasons of pretty much every single character in the Arrowverse telling Oliver at one point or another that he's screwed up. (Ok, maybe not Gary. But everyone else.) 

So, yes, I get why Lois Lane jumped in, but...assuming these shows are renewed and we do these crossovers again next season, can we maybe stop this trend of having everyone yell at Oliver?

12. And on a very related note: kudos to Clark for not jumping on the Oliver hate train?

Bad things:

1. A robot who STEALS POWERS is running around Central City and you think bringing SUPERMAN AND SUPERGIRL to him is a good idea? 

What makes this all worse is that Team Flash not only has a couple of people without powers on their team who could have stepped up, but they know an entire group of non-superpowered vigilantes without powers and even name dropped one of them in the episode, not to mention that Kara knows several non-superpowered people who could have helped. It's the crossover episodes! Bring in Wild Dog! Bring in Diggle! Bring in James! Bring in Lena! 

2. At least this time they also recycled sets from a completely different show.

Look, I'm trying to keep a positive outlook here.

3. That said, Oliver figures out that he's the Flash and....immediately runs into one of Arrow's favorite warehouses. This show is trying to kill me. I know it.

4. Perry pays Lois less than he pays Clark? WHAT? WHAT?  (I know it was a throwaway line, but WHAT?)

5. Not really feeling this Lois Lane yet, but to be fair I was kinda reeling from the pay thing.

6. Kinda disappointed that we didn't get to see any of the other Supergirl and Arrow cast members in this. I know scheduling is incredibly difficult, but, still.

7. I know that Joe couldn't be in this because of Jesse Martin's health issues, but wow, was he missed in this episode. I forget just how much Martin adds to this show until he vanishes from it.

8. Ralph. Sigh. Ralph.

9. I hate when this show writes purely to plot, and there was so much of that here. The crossovers need someone to tell Oliver about Felicity's feelings? Ok, then instead of having the logical person, Barry, approach Iris, let's have Oliver approach her so that Iris can gossip and give Oliver a guilt trip. The crossovers need to bring in Superman? Then, rather than have Team Flash do either of the logical things (believe Oliver and Barry, or, call in Team Arrow), decide that only Kara can help them!

I laughed. It was fun. But keeping my expectations for the next two episodes low. 

[KenyaJ]

23 minutes ago, RedVitC said:

-I'm actually surprised some think Iris was being against Oliver. The conversation with Iris and Oliver on the balcony seemed clearly to be about giving Oliver more insight into what Felicity was going through and how his behavior has affected her. Of course, it didn't make sense, since he should already know since Felicity already told him. I'm not sure why it's trashing him when Iris tells him the same thing. They'll deal more with Oliver and Felicity's relationship in the next hour so it was a set up of sorts.

The balcony scene with Barry and Iris was to me more about reiterating that she loves Barry not Oliver (after some of the imo weird behavior in the episode). If it wasn't this it would have been something like I'm so glad you're Barry, not Oliver. Not because she hates Oliver, but because of course she's glad that her husband is like her husband and not like someone else. Hanging it on Oliver's supposed darkness, I agree, does seem weird. Especially with what Oliver is currently going through on his own show.

I haven't seen anyone who was upset about Iris's conversation with Oliver. From everything I saw in the live thread and Twitter, most people really appreciated that she gave him that insight (never mind that Felicity gave him that insight last week). In contrast, the "Don't come back dark like Oliver Queen" part of her conversation with Barry felt like a gratuitous cheap shot at Oliver, since she'd already expressed to Barry that she wanted him back. But now that TF writers have explained that they're treating Oliver's darkness like a communicable disease, it's more clear why they threw that in there. It was a cheap shot, but not a gratuitous one because they're using it to set up a storyline!

The next time I rail against the Arrow writers, I'm going to take a brief pause to be grateful they're not TF writers.

[mxc90]

I hope the Doctor used the book to get his car repaired.

[RedVitC]

Quick addition before I go: a little 'that was weird wasn't it, no hard feelings?' convo with Iris and Oliver would have been nice to end that arc since Iris isn't in the rest of the crossover.

[Cthulhudrew]

1 hour ago, legaleagle53 said:

It's interesting that one of his ex-wives lives on Earth-38.  The man really DOES get around the Multiverse, doesn't he?

It was kind of a funny quip, but given that last episode of The Flash, I have a feeling it will not make sense in the long run. Which is my biggest gripe about this episode- it was trying to hard with the lighthearted humor, to the detriment of the characters and the overarching story arcs of the individual shows. I agree with Bkwurm1 that it doesn't feel like the writers from all the shows get together and collaborate on these crossovers, so much as they just get their marching orders for their individual episodes and write from there. :(

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

Since when does STAR labs lock two prisoners in the same cell? 

Also, why the need to handcuff prisoners once they're locked in a cell with the power dampeners on? I guess you could possibly argue that they suspected a non-meta (Oliver) might be still dangerous or otherwise hard to keep locked down, and since they weren't entirely sure which was which they cuffed them both, but it still feels like a stretch.

Yeah, this episode had its moments and was overall somewhat fun, but it really breaks down when you look at all the parts that make it up. Too much plot-driven story vs. character-driven. 

[SimoneS]

12 hours ago, KenyaJ said:

The next time I rail against the Arrow writers, I'm going to take a brief pause to be grateful they're not TF writers.

As a fan of The Flash and an occasional watcher of The Arrow, I feel the same i.e., grateful that whatever flaws The Flash writers have, they aren't as bad as the Arrow ones. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by SimoneS

[tennisgurl]

So, ARGUS created a robot that steals powers and abilities, huh? Gee, maybe ARGUS is just a teeny bit sketchy, huh Johhny?!?

[Cthulhudrew]

3 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

So, ARGUS created a robot that steals powers and abilities, huh? Gee, maybe ARGUS is just a teeny bit sketchy, huh Johhny?!?

Dig probably would have commented on it, but he wasn't standing in an ARGUS facility surrounded by questionable ARGUS employees at the time everyone found out so it wouldn't have been an appropriate time to bring it up.

(Inside joke for Arrow viewers.)

Edited December 10, 2018 by Cthulhudrew

[apinknightmare]

6 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

So, ARGUS created a robot that steals powers and abilities, huh? Gee, maybe ARGUS is just a teeny bit sketchy, huh Johhny?!?

We need another plot involving Diggle being surprised by this, stat!

[statsgirl]

30 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said:

Outright lies is a bit much. Yes, Oliver's character has moved beyond that long ago, but this is the Flash, not the Arrow. The showrunners are working under the assumption that not everyone who watches this show watches the other, so they default to the basics: Arrow being darker.

It's not just Arrow being darker, it's Arrow being kicked over and over and The Flash writers having fun doing it. That's why I called it bullying, because it's not fun for Arrow viewers.

After the crossover last year, Iris and Barry complained that the expensive wedding present that Felicity and Oliver bought them was not from their list (entitled much?) and complained that they interrupted their wedding when without their friend Diggle, Barry and Iris wouldn't have been married at all. Also Barry snatched Diggle without asking him if it was okay when Diggle is always affected by superspeed. Ha, ha.

29 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

 When Savitar was a plotline for s3 of the flash but only Oliver has darkness inside of him

 

29 minutes ago, quarks said:

9. Did we all forget, Iris, that Barry pulled the same stunt on you that Felicity is upset about with Oliver?

10. Glad that Iris was able to tell Oliver that yes, Felicity was really hurt, but...this continues the ongoing trend of Flash presenting Oliver as the antihero semi-bad angry grey guy and Barry as the good, bright, cheery light guy, and, beyond the problem that this is no longer really true for either character (and to be fair, has never really been true for Barry), can I point out, again, Flash, that Barry is the guy who has the power to alter the lives and destinies of other people? That just this season, Barry is the one who allowed Nora to stay in the current timeline, thus messing up the current timeline and getting people killed, while - at the same time - Oliver was unearthing evidence of prison abuse and eventually, after getting beaten up multiple times, ended up stopping some very real prison abuse?

Flash, I know Oliver is a serial killer and can frequently be a major jerk. But presenting this as a "I channel my anger" vs "I channel my joy" doesn't just vastly oversimplify both characters, it ignores a very real question. Who's more heroic - the guy who can run fast enough to cancel his mistakes, or the non-superpowered guy sacrificing/losing nearly everything?

11. On a related note:

This has now been seven straight seasons of pretty much every single character in the Arrowverse telling Oliver at one point or another that he's screwed up. (Ok, maybe not Gary. But everyone else.) 

So, yes, I get why Lois Lane jumped in, but...assuming these shows are renewed and we do these crossovers again next season, can we maybe stop this trend of having everyone yell at Oliver?

I still haven't forgiven Barry for erasing Sara Diggle from the universe entirely and replacing her with a boy.

I go into the crossovers dreading how the Flash writers are going to dump on Oliver and Team Arrow this time. My enjoyment of these episodes would be greatly increased if they realized that Barry lives in a glass house himself and they shouldn't be throwing stones

[tennisgurl]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

We need another plot involving Diggle being surprised by this, stat!

Diggle: "I am shocked, shocked, to discover sketchy dealings going on at ARGUS!"

Some ARGUS Guy: "The killer robot plans you approved, sir"

Diggle: "Oh yes, thank you. Shocked!"

I know I already made that joke, but it never stops being relevant now! Next season, hopefully our big crossover will be against ARGUS, at last!

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, Mellowyellow said:

I'm not going to watch this garbage esp with no Felicity so can you pretty please help a girl out and tell me what face he was sporting when he heard this. 

Kicked puppy? Stupid goldfish? 

There was more goldfish sadly.  He was upset but he mostly looked up and swallowed a lot.  He also sounded surprised that Felicity talked to Iris.  Or maybe he was upset she called while in WitSec?  Unless she just called when she was almost killed in witsec and had to work out staying alive on her own.  (If that's the case I'm very disappointed that Iris didn't ask Barry to help out two months ago)

[BkWurm1]

I rewatched to see what I missed when I was ranting about how off it was.  It let me notice more stuff that was just wrong and off, lol. I should say before I go on that as frustrated by the bad writing as I am, I was generally entertained and the hour moved fast even if I don't really think the story has much heart or logic to it. 

But here are a few more things that stood out to me on rewatch:

Some was small stuff.  Like Oliver on the balcony reaching for and downing the wine like he was going to drink his cares away and then being really bummed he couldn’t get drunk.  Oliver doesn’t get drunk.  He BARELY ever drinks and NEVER during a crisis.  So the joke really fell flat the second time around. 

Also, again, I was fine with Iris mentioning the pain Oliver put Felicity through but she says his whole life is defined by anger and vengeance when even him making that dumb deal with the FBI was actually him sacrificing his whole life to keep his city and his friends (most who had been turning on him half the season) and his loved ones were safe.  It was super dumb and absurd he didn’t get his wife/partner’s opinion (since she was then left to try to keep herself and William alive on her own with the maniac still after them) but that horrible choice had nothing to do with anger or vengeance. Oliver is probably the most patient, calm and forgiving guy in the Arrowverse most of the time these days.  I guess that’s just showing how clueless Iris is about who Oliver is. And I guess that's fine.  She doesn't need to know him but the shows like to pretend these people are friends.  

The scene in the cell was comedic on rewatch but again, only on the surface because things just don’t add up.  Like yes, Barry was able to dislocate his thumb because he has Oliver’s skills.  But doing so always hurts Oliver like hell still.  He just is stoic, but still grimaces through it.  There’s no way Barry wouldn’t have felt that it was still dislocated.  And Oliver wouldn’t have gotten the giggles over how it looked.  Unless we are blaming Ray and his nanites still?      

I don’t hate this Lois.  I was always ok with her on Grimm as well, never thought she was spectacular but she was fine.  I think my familiarity with her helped me like her here. Plus I really hated all the mannerisms and the voice of Smallville’s Lois so the contrast is very welcome.  I seriously had a mini freak when the song came on the first time.  I was NOT expecting that.  I completely missed seeing the replicated pan over the town and onto the farm the first time because I was too busy yelling NOOOOOOO!  Just a knee jerk reaction from the last few seasons of that show.  Supergirl has embraced some stuff from the SV universe that I liked, but that’s ok.  There can be things that are the same while so much is very different. 

Also, it really is insulting that the biggest investigative reporter in the world gets paid less than the guy that interviews himself, lol.  (But I guess at least if they think he has a special in with Superman, it’s not just a sexist thing)

I also was sad that Oliver wasn’t’ there to hear Clark’s speech about the value of their secret identity.  That was the EXTRA stupid cherry on top of Oliver’s deal.  Outing himself and thus leaving Felicity and William in the crosshairs for the rest of their lives. 

Lois randomly hammering things in the barn while they talked cracked me up, lol. 

Pet peeve---It really bugged me, the Ivo lab Easter egg stuff with the robot Amazo when Arrow killed Ivo in the season 2 flashbacks (so more than ten years ago in the Arrowverse timeline) and the Amazo was a ship that is still wrecked off of Lian Yu.  Now I need to know who this Ivo is and how is it that he has a evil killer robot? It’s a plot hole for me.  ---ok just got to the part where they say ARGUS is behind it.  Is Ivo not really dead???  Waller scooped up Oliver from the island shortly after Ivo died.  Is he not dead and somehow got his own big company and no one noticed??  But also, Mirikuru gives the robot powers???  Huh?? 

I laughed my head off the first time when Barry rigged the arrows for payback but the second time I watched it just seemed mean because the reason Oliver got shot wasn’t because he wasn’t being vigilant, but because he trusted Barry, relaxed his guard and Barry let him down.  So this time it made me sad for Oliver. 

And how can Lois call Oliver the jerk when Barry is the one that just shot him for a laugh???  That doesn’t make sense.  Oliver only says jerky things after she calls him a jerk. 

I would find it interesting if some of the things Oliver says to Barry is actually stuff he’s upset with in his life.  Like needing his team and they weren’t there. Or making a crack about Barry not being able to do anything without his wife in his ear because right now Oliver doesn’t have his wife in his ear anymore.  I think the motivational speech is just a solid jab without any need for meta reason for saying it.  But I would love if there are double messages behind Oliver’s needling.      

Also note to Flash writers.  Oliver has no problems apologizing.  AT ALL.  He goes on apology tours now. Been that way for years now.  

I liked the discussion of the different ways they’d mastered their abilities but I hate the illogical conclusion that to make them work, the man has to copy how the other guy emoted.  If the swap included personality, they should have had Oliver wake up to think he was Barry and vice versa, not decide they have to pretend. 

And then Kara jumps in and acts like their conclusion isn’t the dumbest thing ever.  Sigh. 

Frankly, I’m surprised Lois didn’t go along, lol.  That would have made a great story too. 

They are all in Central City so of course even after the warning that they hadn’t destroyed Amazo they just stand around waiting. Even after it shows up they just stand there and get scanned.  Yeah, not like three out of four have super speed or anything.  And HOW does Amazo clone GA skills if he’s programed to id metas?  Also, how then did he get Killer Frost’s? 

It kind of cracks me up that Iris is upset that Barry promises to send it to hell when it’s a robot.   Also cracks me up that Barry waits to say a catch phrase before shooting the kryptonite arrow (Oliver really still has one?)  I think Barry would monologue if he was a super villian. 

[adora721]

Did noone get an X-Men: Days of Future Past ripoff vibe from Amazo? He's essentially the Sentinels from that X-Men movie. I don't know the comics, so perhaps Amazo predates the Sentinels.

Only one direct line of dialogue between Iris and Caitlin, and DP looked pained to have to respond.

Caitlin's KF voice was dropped when she said, "He's got our powers." Do better, SFX team. I did like the SFX for Amazo though. And Lila has some explaining to do.

I thought the Flash (SA) and Amazo building fight was interesting, but too prolonged.

I'm guessing The Flash writers take the mick out of Arrow characters when they can because of  Marc Guggenheim's jealousy and snideness (and possibly bad blood). When Marc writes for The Flash characters in his Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow episodes,  he always finds a way to pull focus back to his characters at the expense of the other shows' characters.  Marc, because he's a narcissist (IMO), cannot stand it when his creations aren't the main focus of the episodes.

Last year's Olicity takeover of the WestAllen wedding didn't sit right with "The Flash" writers, who took the opportunity to write Barry and Iris being upset about the double wedding in The Flash's next episode after the crossover. And Marc's writing for Wally West was atrocious when Wally moved to LoT; he made Wally say things about himself and his family that were horrible and just patently false, such as Wally was ashamed of his mother, Wally didn't feel smart enough for Team Flash, etc. I'm certain Marc will take his pot shots at Barry and others tomorrow. He kinda did tonight by Oliver saying that Barry can't do anything w/o a pep talk or his team.

The Monitor intrigues me a bit...

An underwhelming start to a crossover.

[catrox14]

It was amusing for the first 10 minutes and then it just devolved into Oliver bashing, even by Lois Lane whe knows fuck all about this Oliver Queen. 

Iris, you and Barry are perfect for each other. 

I have to laugh that they have a big ole flying robot but nope, they wouldn't bother trying to call Ray Palmer aka the Atom bout flying robot like things...nor Felicity Smoak, super hacker extraordinaire to figure out how to get that virus downloaded.

I was both happy and annoyed with the "Somebody Save Me" reference to Smallivlle.  

Overall, pretty disappointing.

[VCRTracking]

Me when Barry and Oliver go to the Kent Farm on Earth-38 and "Somebody Save Me" the Smallville theme song played:

Edited December 10, 2018 by VCRTracking

[MadyGirl1987]

I thought this was a good start to the crossover. My main complaint is that Team Flash took so long to come around to believing Barry and Oliver. I kept thinking “tell them to ask you something only the real you would know.” I can deal with that though because it would be too easy for them to just  immediately be on board. Also; how do they not know this is some shenanigans of some villains to infiltrate Star Labs or something like that. It’s like how on Once Upon a Time, there were so many times evil doppelgängers were involved you wondered why they didn’t have a secret password or question to ask to verify someone was actually who they were.

Maybe it’s because I don’t watch Arrow, only Flash, Supergirl and Legends, but I don’t see the Oliver-bashing that has been mentioned. I took Barry and Oliver talking about the different motivations meaning they need to come from the other’s perspective to be effective at using their powers. Also; I saw Iris saying “don’t turn into Oliver Queen” to mean don’t lose yourself when being somebody else. It was kinda odd Barry would say Olver’s line for no reason like that. Am I missing something? I just don’t see the bashing.

Loved Barry’ s joy at getting payback with the arrows in the back. Funny callback.

Really enjoyed the Smallville callbacks and seeing the Super cousins and Lois hanging together. Really would love to see more of that on Supergirl. Maybe a small 2/3 episode arc each season where they team up to fight a threat neither can beat alone? Maybe she goes to Metropolis? Even later this season, Lex Luthor is coming to Supergirl. Clark should be involved in that somehow.

[Lantern7]

I had a rough day, health-wise, but this helped me out a little. Why don't we get more Flash/Green Arrow team-ups? Grant and Stephen looked like they were having fun, and it helped get over any character and story flaws in the first part of "Elseworlds." Maybe Dr. Deegan (I can't use that name yet, right?) reshaped reality, and he couldn't "rewrite" the two protagonists. So having them switch lives (not bodies, though Barry getting Ollie's ManPain scars was a nice touch) was as far as he could push it.

Barry setting off remote control arrows to nail Oliver? Cheap laugh. A laugh I needed, though. "Barry, you didn't set up-?" "Me? Nah. You have to trust me, man. [turning to the others, making a throat-slash gesture while grinning like a lunatic]"

Also liked the guys finding abilities switched as well. Kinda makes up for Barry not waking up in the middle of an intense Olicity lovemaking session.

"Remy Zero!!!!" Please tell me we will never, ever, EVER go to Earth-Smallville. That was a ten-season series that should have been stopped at five, and they had the worst Lois Lane ever, and the best actor in the cast wound up in a cult sex thing (dammit, Allison). The farm was a nice place to introduce the new Lois. I think there should've been a little snark thrown on Clark for disappearing for a little over two seasons.

AMAZO. . . shit, what was the acronym meaning? And I'm guessing that ARGUS didn't build one of those before the "rewrite." Now . . . . bringing in two Kryptonians to face a robot that can cop/absorb powers? That's on them. Shit, Superman from Justice League [the animated series] was way more to not get scanned by AMAZO. But we needed Barry to have a badass bow-and-arrow moment, so . . . yay?

Got a little fuzzy feeling seeing the emblem DC Comics used for Elseworlds stories back in the day. Only think missing was an opening spread, Silver Age style. "What's this? Barry Allen, Star City's ace archer? Oliver Queen the fastest man alive?"

Oh, and never refer to the Monitor as "douchebag." He will fuck up your damn car.

ETA: I'm now happy Legends of Tomorrow and Black Lightning weren't thrown into the mix. The latter skews closer to home, and the Legends probably couldn't screw things up worse.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Lantern7

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Some was small stuff.  Like Oliver on the balcony reaching for and downing the wine like he was going to drink his cares away and then being really bummed he couldn’t get drunk.  Oliver doesn’t get drunk.  He BARELY ever drinks and NEVER during a crisis.  So the joke really fell flat the second time around

This is a great point! Now if Dean Winchester had made that joke it would have worked! (This is my annual non-sequitor SPN reference in a DC show thread). 

[apinknightmare]

22 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Last year's Olicity takeover of the WestAllen wedding didn't sit right with "The Flash" writers, who took the opportunity to write Barry and Iris being upset about the double wedding in The Flash's next episode after the crossover.

It’s too bad those writers didn’t channel that anger into writing something special for Iris and Barry on their own show. That would’ve been a nice thing for the fans. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by apinknightmare

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Since Smallville is now Berlantiverse canon, does that mean that now that we've met Lois Lane, we can eventually expect Lana Lang to show up as well?

Why would you put that into the universe? FOR GODS SAKES, WHY!!!!?

[Chaser]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Why would you put that into the universe? FOR GODS SAKES, WHY!!!!?

Secrets and lies! 

[Cthulhudrew]

38 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Did noone get an X-Men: Days of Future Past ripoff vibe from Amazo? He's essentially the Sentinels from that X-Men movie. I don't know the comics, so perhaps Amazo predates the Sentinels.

Amazo predates the Sentinels by several years, but he usually looks like a giant elf in a red skullcap. Classic silver-age villain.

[VCRTracking]

"Somebody saaaaaaaaave meeeeeeee!" is still in my head.

Favorite line is Ralph's "It's not even Tuesday!"

I like "Elseworlds" so far. The previous crossovers felt like the main comic book miniseries where there are too many characters to juggle and it gets overwhelming. This one so far feels like those comics where one arc is told in different titles. A story begins one book and continues in another.

I don't know what it was but shot of Superman and Supergirl walking during towards A.M.A.Z.O. is the sexiest Melissa Benoist has ever looked!

We finally find out the S.T.A.R. Labs metahuman cells do have toilets. Also that Barry admitted it was a prison.

Great to see Jeremy Davies(Corporal Upham from Saving Private Ryan, Daniel Faraday from LOST) playing a psychology professor with hair like Joe Dirt.

Edited December 10, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Simba122504]

4 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Ha!  So much else was off I didn't even think about this but yeah, has it EVER happened before?  And then as much as I love Oliver, why was he the one that figured out how to break out of Barry's prison?  

This episode was all about ticking off boxes without it making sense. 

Monitor hands weird creepy guy book to rewrite world.  Why?  We many never know. FIrst thing creepy doc does is swap Oliver and Barry.  Why?  We may never know.  BOTH Barry and Oliver say they have had their lives swapped.  Not one.  BOTH.  But no one on TF believes them.  Why?  We may never know.  Barry wants' OLIVER to convince Iris they are telling the truth instead of him, actual Barry who actually knows stuff.  Why?  We may never know.  And it keeps going. 

Why knock them out and lock them up in the same cell? 

How did Barry and Oliver know where to find Kara?

Why suddenly are Barry and Oliver's ability to handle their abilities tied now to emotion as if only if Barry pretends to be Oliver and vice versa they are in control?  Huh??? And somehow now Iris is afraid Barry will channel Oliver sooo well he'll never stop dabbling in the darkness?  But he hasn't had the same experiences.  He is NOT Oliver and he's not being tortured now so why is she suddenly so worried? 

And why is NO ONE CALLING OLIVER'S PEEPS?!!!    

Yeah, why only those two people?  If you're going to rewrite reality then you rewrite reality. I don't understand why it only affects two people on the entire earth?  That makes no sense. I did enjoy many parts, though. That SV theme took me out. lol I cannot wait until my parents see that part. 😂 They also watched SV. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by Simba122504

[VCRTracking]

8 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Amazo predates the Sentinels by several years, but he usually looks like a giant elf in a red skullcap. Classic silver-age villain.

He was also in a Justice League episode like voiced by Robert Picardo and looked like this:

Edited December 10, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Brinny]

I don't know. I thought it was fun. (I also don't watch Arrow, though. Maybe that's why? I don't mean that in a snarky way, just my only familiarity with the Arrow characters is pretty much through the crossovers, so I don't have any sort of attachment to any of them nor would I really notice if they were acting out of character. Know what I mean?)

I'll concede that none of it makes ANY sense. At least so far. Randomly switching two superheroes (literally just their bodies, not anything else), is going to do what, exactly? But the comics don't usually make too much sense either. And I'm still just kind of psyched that this whole superhero trend is still going on and that DC hasn't seemed to have messed up their television properties as much as their movies. So, for now, I'm just gonna enjoy it. :)

Guys, the Smallville references. Like, just hearing the theme song and seeing the farm and OHMYGOD, I was back in high school. So much nostalgia feels. 

3 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Is it just me, or does Candice Patton have more chemistry with Stephen Amell in 5 minutes than she has with Grant Gustin in 5 seasons?

Man, chemistry is so subjective. Because I think that Patton and Gustin's chemistry is probably one of the best things about the show. That hand grab near the end of the episode with Barry and Iris? LOVE. (For the record, I don't think CP and GG necessarily have like, smoking, sexual, need to tear each other's clothes off chemistry, but a) I don't think they really need to; and b) neither did CP and SA.)

[MadyGirl1987]

12 minutes ago, Simba122504 said:

Yeah, why only those two people?  If you're going to switch reality then you actually switch reality. I don't understand why it only affects two people on the entire earth?  That nmakes no sense.

I remember seeing the doctor talking to Barry and Oliver in the promos so I am assuming we will get an explanation. My guess is he’s using them for some sort of experiment to prove a point.

[Brinny]

44 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

It’s too bad those writers didn’t channel that anger into writing something special for Iris and Barry on their own show. That would’ve been a nice thing for the fans. 

Probably because it doesn't work that way. Adding in a throwaway line is one thing, an entire episode devoted to another wedding is quite another. 

[apinknightmare]

13 minutes ago, Brinny said:

Probably because it doesn't work that way. Adding in a throwaway line is one thing, an entire episode devoted to another wedding is quite another. 

It works however the people writing the show want it to work. They come up with the ideas - if they’d wanted to fit in something for them, even if it didn’t take up the whole episode, they could have. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by apinknightmare

[Brinny]

20 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

It works however the people writing the show want it to work. They come up with the ideas - if they’d wanted to fit in something for them, even if it didn’t take up the whole episode, they could have. 

Yes, writers come up with ideas. But there are still showrunners and networks and studios that need to give approval for those ideas. The show isn't made in a vacuum. Which, again, is probably why inserting a line of dialogue, which costs pretty much no money, was done instead of an episode or even a scene.

And, to be fair, I don't think that Iris saying one salty sentence is really even that big of a deal.

In this episode, there doesn't appear to be any real, bad blood between the characters. I didn't interpret Iris not wanting Barry to be like Oliver as a slam against Oliver, more just that she didn't want her husband, who spent a lot of time in past trying not to be dark and broody, to become dark and broody. Maybe I'm wrong, like I said, I don't watch Arrow. But, any time Oliver Queen has shown up on the Flash, he's been kind of gruff and stoic, which is the opposite of Barry Allen (and part of what makes them good foils for each other), so I wouldn't blame Iris for not wanting Barry to be, essentially, NOT Barry. 

[ruby24]

1 hour ago, Brinny said:

 

Man, chemistry is so subjective. Because I think that Patton and Gustin's chemistry is probably one of the best things about the show. That hand grab near the end of the episode with Barry and Iris? LOVE. (For the record, I don't think CP and GG necessarily have like, smoking, sexual, need to tear each other's clothes off chemistry, but a) I don't think they really need to; and b) neither did CP and SA.)

This they don't have. I don't think. To be fair, I wouldn't know, because in all of five seasons of watching this show they have NEVER allowed them to have a sex scene or anything close to one, so who knows how that would look. They're the chastest couple on the planet. It's amazing they even have a child in the future, she must have come from immaculate conception.

To this day it baffles me. I have no idea what that's about. 

[apinknightmare]

12 minutes ago, Brinny said:

Yes, writers come up with ideas. But there are still showrunners and networks and studios that need to give approval for those ideas. The show isn't made in a vacuum. Which, again, is probably why inserting a line of dialogue, which costs pretty much no money, was done instead of an episode or even a scene.

And, to be fair, I don't think that Iris saying one salty sentence is really even that big of a deal.

Yes, I understand how this works, thank you! Arrow managed to get a whole reception for Oliver and Felicity okayed, so I assume Flash could've managed a simple scene if they'd wanted to. But maybe they didn't want to.  I personally don't care—I don't watch Flash or care about Barry and Iris—I was just responding to a comment about The Flash writers lashing out about the whole double wedding that Greg Berlanti wanted instead of maybe doing something special for them on Flash to make up for it, that's all.

[Trini]

Agreed that they dumbed everyone (and everything*) down to make this plot "work"; in addition to speeding(heh) through everything. I mean some scenes were essentially parodies. At least I was expecting this to be ridiculous.

*I get why they had that scene with Barry and Oliver in the same cell, but had to do several things that never happen happened to make it happen. There are definitely moments to enjoy, but yeah, gotta shut your brain off.

They were way too simplistic - and thus inaccurate - about both Barry and Oliver's abilities.

And while WestQueen breakfast was nice for me personally,

... the rest of Iris' comments regarding Oliver (and sometimes Barry!Oliver) that made it seem like she only liked him for his body, which is not only insulting to Oliver, but out of character for Iris. Really unnecessary.

Seeing as how they confirmed that Iris and Felicity talk sometimes, I'm assuming that's how Iris knew to knock out Barry!Oliver with wine.

Needed more Kara. Wished we had a Kara/Iris scene (along with Iris/Lois). She better be heavily featured in the Supergirl episode.

Wow, the Monitor sucks at picking people to give reality altering powers to. Liked that scene where he was talking to them through the vibe.

So ARGUS has the tech to copy metahuman (and non-methuman!) powers. Let's see if that ever comes up again, on any show, ever.

Grant and Stephen were great together, and I'm glad they had fun, but so many things were wrong. Still many enjoyable moments.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Trini

[ruby24]

This was...okay. Some funny parts, but everything had to be so contrived to get there. And everyone had to be so stupid! Not to just parrot everybody else, but yeah, why was it so hard for Team Flash to believe them? Why would they throw them both in the same cell? Why would going to see Kara on her Earth be the "obvious" solution? Why would the two of them pretending to be each other be the "obvious" thing to do? 

Also I can't help but think if the whole idea was to do a body-swapping crossover, was the reason they didn't actually swap "bodies" because they didn't think Amell and Gustin could do a good enough job acting like each other in personality? 

I've always thought they should do a crossover that takes place on another earth where the heroes really ARE other versions of themselves entirely, like we drop in on another world altogether. The only thing they ever did that was close to this was the famous Earth-2 episodes from Season 2, but why haven't they done that again with any other earths? One where they're villains or something? That was a well that hadn't run dry yet, imo. It had all kinds of potential.

Lois was fine, I guess. Haven't seen enough of her yet to tell. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by ruby24

[Trini]

22 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

This they don't have. I don't think. To be fair, I wouldn't know, because in all of five seasons of watching this show they have NEVER allowed them to have a sex scene or anything close to one, so who knows how that would look. They're the chastest couple on the planet. It's amazing they even have a child in the future, she must have come from immaculate conception.

Not true.

[apinknightmare]

8 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Also I can't help but think if the whole idea was to do a body-swapping crossover, was the reason they didn't actually swap "bodies" because they didn't think Amell and Gustin could do a good enough job acting like each other in personality? 

I’m pretty sure it was because they wanted the visual of Oliver and Barry in each other’s suits. That makes for better marketing than a full-on body swap. 

[ruby24]

9 minutes ago, Trini said:

Not true.

What are you thinking of then? The one, fully clothed, single makeout scene from that third season episode that got interrupted? Cause that was literally it and it wasn't even close. Nothing since then, which is astounding. They didn't even show their first time together! I will NEVER get over that, I still can't believe it. When a show skips that, I mean...that says a LOT. I'm not sure what it was, but trust me there was a reason for that. Something behind the scenes. There is NO WAY it just didn't "occur" to them to write first time scene for a TV show's main couple. 

That is a huge, intentional, unforgivable oversight. A slap in the face. And it happened for a reason. No one can convince me otherwise. Someone behind the scenes did not want that shown onscreen.

Edited December 10, 2018 by ruby24

[Trini]

3 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

13 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Also I can't help but think if the whole idea was to do a body-swapping crossover, was the reason they didn't actually swap "bodies" because they didn't think Amell and Gustin could do a good enough job acting like each other in personality? 

I’m pretty sure it was because they wanted the visual of Oliver and Barry in each other’s suits. That makes for better marketing than a full-on body swap. 

I think there were several reasons. I wish they had done a had done a straight up Elseworlds story where Barry and Oliver were switched, or everyone was playing a different character.

[thuganomics85]

I enjoyed it more than I expected, mainly because Stephen Amell and Grant Gustin are just so hilarious and great together, and can make almost anything work.  They're really nailed down the whole "annoyed, older brother/goofy, younger brother dynamic, which really works for the characters of Oliver and Barry.  I definitely loved those moments like Oliver refusing to make the "lighting rod" comment and Barry getting his revenge for the arrow in the back thing!

Still, admittedly a few issues here.  I definitely was pissed with Team Flash for how they handled the initial reveal.  I just always get annoyed when shows that are set in universe where so many bizarre things happen, suddenly decide that a certain thing is too hard to believe, even when it really isn't.  This reminded me of last season when Team Flash was acting like Barry was a nutter because he thought DeVoe was up to no good.  All because he, gasp!  Was in a wheelchair!  So, now Team Flash finds it hard to believe that two heroes somehow got their minds swapped, despite living in a universe that has dealt with alien invasions, time-travel, numerous Wells, different Earths, metas every week with far out powers, and mind-controlling gorillas?  Maybe that's why they decided to have the Legends sit this one out, because they would have heard all of this and been like, "Yep, just another Monday for us!"

While I don't necessarily think it is on purpose and there might be some truth to what is being said, I do get a sense someone in the writing room just doesn't like Oliver.  Again, I get Iris not wanting Barry to become him because she loves him for he is, but cosplaying as the Green Arrow and doing the "You have failed this city!" line once, doesn't mean Barry's suddenly becoming Oliver.  And even then, they're acting like if he does, it would be a kind to turning into Darth Vader.  Oliver has his demons, but he's not the worst of the worst.  Chill, Iris.  Oliver's not even the worst of your friends.  As much as I love him, y'all invited Mick Freaking Rory to y'alls wedding, and he tried to kill Barry... several times.

AMAZO was a dull villain.  Basically your average killer robot/sentinel.  Yawn!  And, seriously, ARGUS is the worst.  I think I would even pick the League of Assassins over that lot (but not the Children of Liberty, because fuck those guys.)

The stuff on Earth-38 was fun.  Playing the Smallville theme was a hoot and Tyler Hoechin continues to be a great Clark/Superman.  Elizabeth Tulloch was fine as Lois, I guess.  Certainly more lively than the majority of her time on Grimm.

So, the true cause of all of this is because this Monitor dude has gave an all-powerful book to Jeremy Davies, which is certainly bad news, because Dickie Bennett is the last person I want in control of a book like that!  Davies also had a recurring role on the actual Constantine show, so I guess Constantine/Matt Ryan himself is the only thing that is canon over here.

 Off to Gotham now!

[Trisha]

7 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Also note to Flash writers.  Oliver has no problems apologizing.  AT ALL.  He goes on apology tours now. Been that way for years now.

One thing I’m really surprised at is how this keeps happening in the crossovers despite the fact that Stephen Amell is incredibly protective of Oliver. He’s always talking about how he knows the character so well that he’ll alert the writers to inconsistencies (he just gave an interview where he said he intervened about Oliver’s post-prison wardrobe & PTSD), and yet he lets stuff in the crossover slide. It’s like the Flash writers are either working off his season 1 version (him refusing to apologize, talking about being motivated by darkness) or a version we’ve never seen on any show (desperate for a drink, giggling over a broken thumb). I don’t know if it’s because Amell doesn’t have any sway with the Flash team, or if he’s just too busy during crossover filming to really think about it, but it is so very strange. 

[SimoneS]

10 hours ago, adora721 said:

Last year's Olicity takeover of the WestAllen wedding didn't sit right with "The Flash" writers, who took the opportunity to write Barry and Iris being upset about the double wedding in The Flash's next episode after the crossover. 

Did The Flash writers actually say something or is this fan speculation? I am still pretty ticked off that Barry and Iris never had their own wedding on The Flash. It is ridiculous. Barry and Iris are one of DC's iconic couples and The Flash is the highest rated of these DC shows. One of many reasons that I continue to refuse to watch these crossovers.

Edited December 10, 2018 by SimoneS

[BkWurm1]

7 hours ago, MadyGirl1987 said:

I remember seeing the doctor talking to Barry and Oliver in the promos so I am assuming we will get an explanation. My guess is he’s using them for some sort of experiment to prove a point.

During his lecture there was a Flash symbol up on his screen when he was saying that basically a lot of these "great" human beings are only great because they got lucky.  I assume he meant genetics or getting powers from a bolt of lightning (I wouldn't call Oliver's five years in hell before coming home giving him the ideal training to be GA a lucky break- so maybe he's the unlucky guy?)  But I don't see how swapping Oliver and Barry would prove any of his theories that they are great because they are lucky. 

6 hours ago, Brinny said:

 

In this episode, there doesn't appear to be any real, bad blood between the characters. I didn't interpret Iris not wanting Barry to be like Oliver as a slam against Oliver, more just that she didn't want her husband, who spent a lot of time in past trying not to be dark and broody, to become dark and broody. 

Except Iris didn't just tell Barry not to come back like Oliver, she was super freaked out when he was doing the GA thing, and then acted like just being the GA would taint his soul.  This goes back to the show deciding the key to mastering each other's powers was to either think happy thoughts or open yourself up to the darkness and pain and roll around in it.  The premise that just using each other's powers would change their personalities long term is of course silly, but it's treated like a real, VERY BIG concern of Iris's, like Oliver Queen was a sickness that could be caught and would ruin their lives.  

Edited December 10, 2018 by BkWurm1

[Starry]

Iris told Barry to not become Oliver Queen because of what he said to her when he was out in the field. He wanted to kill Amazo when the plan was to weaken him. It's not a big deal with a robot but the point is that she was afraid he'd follow the same line of thinking with a person, jumping straight into killing his opponent. Of course this show always forgets that Team Flash has killed metas in the past.

They overdid it with the Oliver is dark and Barry is light contrast but I expected this kind of simplistic writing because of what was shown in the clips they released before the episode. I made peace with it days ago.

They overdid it with the PDA as well. It's not CP having more chemistry with SA*, it was a forced/scripted dynamic that was put in there to prove that the Flash characters are light, fluffy, affectionate when they don't act this way all the time or to this extent. 

*For me it's impossible to see chemistry when one character/actor is doing all the work. The characters in the couple don't have to be immediately on the same page but there has to be a hint of something more/unexplored potential which is what was missing here as Oliver wasn't into it. Not SA or CP's fault because that was what the script was calling for.

Barry pushing Oliver to convince Iris by calling her his lightning rod was so stupid. If he had told her that himself like he did later in the episode it would have worked and they wouldn't have been thrown in a prison cell. What was he thinking?

I hope there's something more to the doctor because I don't get how the switch played into his plan. Maybe there's this grand design that will be explored in the following episodes.

"You've failed this city" was so cringy.

I liked Lois. She wasn't amazing but I liked her. Not sure how I feel about her and Clark together but no couple has got me hooked from their first scene.

I loved WestAllen. They're my favorite thing about the show so I was glad they got a couple beautiful scenes.

I was glad to hear that Iris and Felicity keep in touch but I wanted them to interact. Instead Felicity

Spoiler

is going to have her heart to heart with Caitlin, lol. Why?

 

8 hours ago, statsgirl said:

After the crossover last year, Iris and Barry complained that the expensive wedding present that Felicity and Oliver bought them was not from their list (entitled much?) and complained that they interrupted their wedding when without their friend Diggle, Barry and Iris wouldn't have been married at all. Also Barry snatched Diggle without asking him if it was okay when Diggle is always affected by superspeed. Ha, ha.

Nope. Iris and Barry would have gone to a Justice of the Peace and be done with it. There's absolutely no reason to think that without Olicity Barry and Iris wouldn't be married at all. But even if I agreed with this, and I can't, it doesn't give Olicity permission to suddenly jump in and get married with them. That's not how it works and that's what actual entitlement looks like.

The Flash writers may overdo it with the simplistic writing at times but that scene wasn't it. There's wanting the Flash writers to not shade Arrow and there's expecting Barry and Iris to accept rudeness.

Barry was rude to Diggle. That's true. Diggle's wife Lyla was horrendous to Barry when she refused to give him the only thing that could help save Iris' life, less than 24 hours before her expected death, because she was upset about a daughter she never had.

 

7 hours ago, adora721 said:

I'm guessing The Flash writers take the mick out of Arrow characters when they can because of  Marc Guggenheim's jealousy and snideness (and possibly bad blood). When Marc writes for The Flash characters in his Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow episodes,  he always finds a way to pull focus back to his characters at the expense of the other shows' characters.  Marc, because he's a narcissist (IMO), cannot stand it when his creations aren't the main focus of the episodes.

Last year's Olicity takeover of the WestAllen wedding didn't sit right with "The Flash" writers, who took the opportunity to write Barry and Iris being upset about the double wedding in The Flash's next episode after the crossover. And Marc's writing for Wally West was atrocious when Wally moved to LoT; he made Wally say things about himself and his family that were horrible and just patently false, such as Wally was ashamed of his mother, Wally didn't feel smart enough for Team Flash, etc. I'm certain Marc will take his pot shots at Barry and others tomorrow. He kinda did tonight by Oliver saying that Barry can't do anything w/o a pep talk or his team.

ICAM. Plenty of blame to go around. I'm wary of what MG has come up with to disrespect Iris in the other two episodes. He's a horrible track record where her character is concerned.

[cambridgeguy]

2 minutes ago, Starry said:

I liked Lois. She wasn't amazing but I liked her. Not sure how I feel about her and Clark together but no couple has got me hooked from their first scene.

I think Clark was about to tell Kara he was thinking of proposing (or something of that nature) when they were interrupted by Barry and Oliver.  We'll probably get to see more of them in the Supergirl part of the crossover.  She didn't really have enough to do in this part.

[Brinny]

27 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Except Iris didn't just tell Barry not to come back like Oliver, she was super freaked out when he was doing the GA thing, and then acted like just being the GA would taint his soul.  This goes back to the show deciding the key to mastering each other's powers was to either think happy thoughts or open yourself up to the darkness and pain and roll around in it.  The premise that just using each other's powers would change their personalities long term is of course silly, but it's treated like a real, VERY BIG concern of Iris's, like Oliver Queen was a sickness that could be caught and would ruin their lives.  

 

Well, I mean, to be fair, the last time Barry let his dark side take over, he created a time remnant that tried to murder her. So...

(I'm kind of kidding. I get it. Arrow fans are protective or their characters, Flash fans of theirs. Makes sense. I have no skin in the game, though.)

 

ETA: I should also note that I understand the frustration of the oversimplification of Oliver’s character. Yes, clearly being the Green Arrow is more that just getting angry and holding onto pain. The same way being The Flash is more than being Mr. Happy-Go-Lucky. There’s definitely a writing issue there. (However, I loved Oliver asking Barry if he couldn’t get through the day without a pep talk. Cause that’s kinda true. Heh.)

Edited December 10, 2018 by Brinny

[BkWurm1]

Just now, Brinny said:

Well, I mean, to be fair, the last time Barry let his dark side take over, he created a time remnant that tried to murder her. So...

(I'm kind of kidding. I get it. Arrow fans are protective or their characters, Flash fans of theirs. Makes sense. I have no skin in the game, though.)

See that's just it.  Barry has the potential darkness all on his own.  Why tie his downfall to him being basically corrupted by his time as GA?