19 Things I Hate About You: How the Duggars Infuriate

[Arwen Evenstar]

The fact that their one science lesson is a trip to the Creation Museum.

[Churchhoney]

On 5/31/2016 at 0:45 PM, sometimesy said:

2 more infuriate thingys:

The adult kids get too many passes for being raised by JB and Michelle. They have lot's of contact a variety of people through travel and comment deletions. They know. 

 

Seems logical, but my experience screams to me that it's really not.

Yeah, they've been on trips. But they've only met people when they were surrounded by their mob of a family, indoctrinating them constantly and preventing any close contact. And Internet comments come from voices that even the rest of us often can't really envision as fully human, as far as I can tell. I actually went to public school from age five and got summer jobs beginning at 13. So I had tons and tons and tons more experience of other people -- and on my own, without any family members around -- than any Duggar has ever had. (Plus -- I have to say it -- quite a few more IQ points than any Duggar I've seen and a naturally independent nature.). Yet even though I fled to another state at 18 I stayed largely trapped in my family-learned patterns of behavior -- and even, to some degree, thinking -- for years thereafter. (and still stay trapped in many behaviors and even thought patterns to this day)

I'm sure that there are brainwashed-by-family people who do actually change significantly and at a fairly young age. But in my experience -- reinforced by that of a couple close friends who have similar stories -- it's unbelievably hard to do and may only be doable if you're really really lucky, plus smart and highly independent by nature (which most people aren't, and which the Duggar kids don't seem to be at all). I still think they deserve a pass, even though I'd love to see them repudiate this shit.

I feel doubly lucky because, while I remained stuck in my family's horseshit, it was purely personal warping. I didn't get saddled with a habit of condemning other people's morals and religion and trying to impose my personal rules-for-living on the larger society and arrogantly mouthing off about that on television. It's another misfortune of the Duggar kids that they haven't just been personally screwed up by their parents but they've been gifted with their parents' ugly arrogant attitudes towards other people and their belief that imposing their will on others is a good thing to do. If they were just fucked up themselves, their brainwashing would be a personal misfortune, but we wouldn't feel nearly so inclined to condemn them for it. I feel like condemning them, too, but I can't because I know how hard it is to escape, for many of us.

[Aja]

6 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Seems logical, but my experience screams to me that it's really not.

Yeah, they've been on trips. But they've only met people when they were surrounded by their mob of a family, indoctrinating them constantly and preventing any close contact. And Internet comments come from voices that even the rest of us often can't really envision as fully human, as far as I can tell. I actually went to public school from age five and got summer jobs beginning at 13. So I had tons and tons and tons more experience of other people -- and on my own, without any family members around -- than any Duggar has ever had. (Plus -- I have to say it -- quite a few more IQ points than any Duggar I've seen and a naturally independent nature.). Yet even though I fled to another state at 18 I stayed largely trapped in my family-learned patterns of behavior -- and even, to some degree, thinking -- for years thereafter. (and still stay trapped in many behaviors and even thought patterns to this day)

I'm sure that there are brainwashed-by-family people who do actually change significantly and at a fairly young age. But in my experience -- reinforced by that of a couple close friends who have similar stories -- it's unbelievably hard to do and may only be doable if you're really really lucky, plus smart and highly independent by nature (which most people aren't, and which the Duggar kids don't seem to be at all). I still think they deserve a pass, even though I'd love to see them repudiate this shit.

I feel doubly lucky because, while I remained stuck in my family's horseshit, it was purely personal warping. I didn't get saddled with a habit of condemning other people's morals and religion and trying to impose my personal rules-for-living on the larger society and arrogantly mouthing off about that on television. It's another misfortune of the Duggar kids that they haven't just been personally screwed up by their parents but they've been gifted with their parents' ugly arrogant attitudes towards other people and their belief that imposing their will on others is a good thing to do. If they were just fucked up themselves, their brainwashing would be a personal misfortune, but we wouldn't feel nearly so inclined to condemn them for it. I feel like condemning them, too, but I can't because I know how hard it is to escape, for many of us.

Churchie, your unique insight into Duggar psychology is always fascinating. I'm in the process of overcoming a lot of brainwashing too, though I don't believe I've suffered to the extent that you have. Still in all though, at 18 you began a process to extricate yourself from that, whether it was a fully conscious decision or not. And I THOROUGHLY take your point about intelligence. The Duggar bulbs are dim indeed, mumbling and giggling and reciting the same six or seven words over and over again for the camera, not a ton of fire behind most of their eyes. Granted. But I find it very hard to be as generous as you are with the kidults; brainwashed or no, Mensa members or no, they are both old enough and aware enough to know better than what they're doing. It can't be easy; it's got to be unimaginably confusing. I have nothing but sympathy for that. But I don't see ANYTHING but blind, dumb adherence to the crap that has brought disaster to their lives in the first place--adherence to it, and continued promotion of it. Maybe I'm just being impatient. :)

[Churchhoney]

11 minutes ago, Aja said:

Churchie, your unique insight into Duggar psychology is always fascinating. I'm in the process of overcoming a lot of brainwashing too, though I don't believe I've suffered to the extent that you have. Still in all though, at 18 you began a process to extricate yourself from that, whether it was a fully conscious decision or not. And I THOROUGHLY take your point about intelligence. The Duggar bulbs are dim indeed, mumbling and giggling and reciting the same six or seven words over and over again for the camera, not a ton of fire behind most of their eyes. Granted. But I find it very hard to be as generous as you are with the kidults; brainwashed or no, Mensa members or no, they are both old enough and aware enough to know better than what they're doing. It can't be easy; it's got to be unimaginably confusing. I have nothing but sympathy for that. But I don't see ANYTHING but blind, dumb adherence to the crap that has brought disaster to their lives in the first place--adherence to it, and continued promotion of it. Maybe I'm just being impatient. :)

Points taken!

We only see what they allow us to see, though, and I think it's possible that some sprouts of dissension do appear on the blind dumb lawn of crap adherence from time to time. And then what we see is a quick trip to Alert, baby Alert, Journey to the Heartbroken, ATI Mother-Daughter FUN Weekend, FAMILY camp!, etc.. And the sprouts get pruned. They have quite the brainwashing apparatus going on. I can't help but feel bad for them. Not least because of how dumb they seem, actually. lol

Edited June 2, 2016 by Churchhoney

[Aja]

2 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Not least because of how dumb they seem, actually. lol

I know. It sucks. You'd think that ALERT or an ATI Mother-Daughter weekend (and I just physically shuddered typing that) would make someone who was already having doubts about the cult turn on it completely, especially the older they are. It's just bizarre that not a single one of them have shown any independence whatsoever. Missioncationing does not count. I mean, even a Bateseseesesess kid wears pants now.

[MunichNark]

I think it is nigh impossible for any ordinary person, not growing up in that mindset to even begin to understand how those people live. I didn't grow up hating or fearing everyone, so I don't relate to that much.

Reading I fired God helped a lot to better understand, but I don't think I will ever truly get it - thankfully perhaps, since common sense always kicks in and says "whoaaaaaaaaaa there"

[sometimesy]

1 hour ago, MunichNark said:

I think it is nigh impossible for any ordinary person, not growing up in that mindset to even begin to understand how those people live. I didn't grow up hating or fearing everyone, so I don't relate to that much.

Reading I fired God helped a lot to better understand, but I don't think I will ever truly get it - thankfully perhaps, since common sense always kicks in and says "whoaaaaaaaaaa there"

Yep, I give a lot of weight to Churchhoney and other people on here for their experience, because I have a very hard time understanding the control. It never occurred to my friends that mirroring parents was an expectation.  Everyone grows up with someone else values imposed on them, but we continually sift through these as our perspective changes over our lifetime. Ridding themselves of the teen years seems like a big contribution to their control. That whole time of experimenting and discovery lost to the parents mold. 

If JB couldn't keep them in $, he would find a lot less obedience imo. 

[Churchhoney]

48 minutes ago, sometimesy said:

 

If JB couldn't keep them in $, he would find a lot less obedience imo. 

Yep. That's the main reason why I hate them having the show. It's a lot harder for people to bite a hand that feeds them well, or even ask questions about that hand.

Plus, of course, having the show allows JB and M to argue convincingly that the world accepts them as great role models, that having the show is God's way of telling them that he wants their mission to spread, and that it's the kids' duty to help this along.

Their trap is multifaceted, but the show is definitely part of it.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Churchhoney
cause it's about money but not just about the money

[Churchhoney]

51 minutes ago, sometimesy said:

Everyone grows up with someone else values imposed on them, but we continually sift through these as our perspective changes over our lifetime. Ridding themselves of the teen years seems like a big contribution to their control. That whole time of experimenting and discovery lost to the parents mold. 

 

Luckily most people don't make turning their children into robotic followers their main project in life! It takes a special kind of sicko to do that. When you were raised by a sicko or sickos of that ilk, you find that most people can't be truly convinced of what happened to you since it's so far outside normal experience. I've always been aware that most people have thought I was lying or at least greatly exaggerating whenever I've talked about my family. I've seen hundreds of blank looks of total noncomprehension.

Obviously, it's a good thing for the world that this is an extreme outlier personality. But the cost of it is that when people like this appear -- when people encounter them on tv like the Duggars or when some real-life situation calls somebody's attention to potential abuse or something -- most people simply can't comprehend what they're seeing. So they get away with things or even collect tv "fans."

[Absolom]

Or worse, people excuse the ludicrously narcissstic behavior as oh that's just Betty or Elaine. 

I, since having had a few of those control freaks in my life, know that the only way to get through is set up boundaries and stop them in their tracks.  My SIL once told me no one says no to xxxx.  I smiled and said then it's high time someone did.  He has since learned to tell his mother to back off and no we aren't doing that. 

It's really tough to learn when you grow up with it and friends and family say things like it's just easier to let him/her do their thing.  And the narcissist/control freak learns to keep on bulldozing because it works. 

[Churchhoney]

35 minutes ago, Absolom said:

Or worse, people excuse the ludicrously narcissstic behavior as oh that's just Betty or Elaine. 

I, since having had a few of those control freaks in my life, know that the only way to get through is set up boundaries and stop them in their tracks.  My SIL once told me no one says no to xxxx.  I smiled and said then it's high time someone did.  He has since learned to tell his mother to back off and no we aren't doing that. 

It's really tough to learn when you grow up with it and friends and family say things like it's just easier to let him/her do their thing.  And the narcissist/control freak learns to keep on bulldozing because it works. 

Exactly.

[cmr2014]

Then explain why the masthead of their old website featured a picture of the brood with Psalm 127.3-5 prominently displayed. That's some pretty damning evidence to the contrary. If I knew how to use the Wayback Machine, I'd post it here as visible proof. The Duggars are masters at saying one thing, but doing the exact opposite. 

Brought this over from the Seewald thread. I don't know that this is the right thread, because this doesn't infuriate, so much as perplex me.

JB becomes visibly angry when people ask him if he is "Quiverful," or a "Gothardite," but the family is clearly both.

Aside from having Psalm 127 prominently displayed on their web site, the HAVE 19 CHILDREN, and insist that their children include not limiting their own family size in their marriage vows.

They attend Gothard seminars. They school their children with Gothard's "Wisdom booklets" and go to the Gothard homeschoolers' conference at Big Sandy every year. They spend a lot of money to send their children to the Gothard Journey to the Heart and Alert programs. 

They're not shy about any of that. They promote it all endlessly on the show, and on their web site. So what's the deal? Why does calling him "Quiverful" or "Gothardite" make him so angry?

[GeeGolly]

6 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

Brought this over from the Seewald thread. I don't know that this is the right thread, because this doesn't infuriate, so much as perplex me.

JB becomes visibly angry when people ask him if he is "Quiverful," or a "Gothardite," but the family is clearly both.

Aside from having Psalm 127 prominently displayed on their web site, the HAVE 19 CHILDREN, and insist that their children include not limiting their own family size in their marriage vows.

They attend Gothard seminars. They school their children with Gothard's "Wisdom booklets" and go to the Gothard homeschoolers' conference at Big Sandy every year. They spend a lot of money to send their children to the Gothard Journey to the Heart and Alert programs. 

They're not shy about any of that. They promote it all endlessly on the show, and on their web site. So what's the deal? Why does calling him "Quiverful" or "Gothardite" make him so angry?

Too add to this

A link from the link that JoanArc posted: https://web.archive.org/web/20050622033323/http://www.quiverfull.com/articles.php/id20/

A link from the link that Sew Sumi posted: https://web.archive.org/web/20060424151639/http://www.duggarfamily.com/articles/large-family.php

[Arwen Evenstar]

They're definitely on the lunatic fringe, Gothard, Quiverfull, either, both, or none of the above.

Baby voice, headship gaze, defrauding, keeping it sweet..that's all Gothardly behavior.

[Aja]

I don't get it either. It's like when Erin Bates had Bill Gothard at her wedding and made him his own special cake and then recently said she neither supported nor was affiliated with him. It would REALLY behoove fundies to figure out how the internet works.

[Lemur]

5 minutes ago, Aja said:

I don't get it either. It's like when Erin Bates had Bill Gothard at her wedding and made him his own special cake and then recently said she neither supported nor was affiliated with him. It would REALLY behoove fundies to figure out how the internet works.

Yeah, but that was pre-removal from the board of his own cult, like right before it happened.  

I do get what you're saying though.  It's also why Quiverfull is so pernicious and nefarious - these people are clearly breeding like rabbits with a purpose and educating these people in a purposeful way but yet do not want to own up to their real motives.  It's my opinion that JB thinks if he's just slightly different on some minor details, he's not full out QF and thus can't be link to Old Billy Goat Gothard. JB's not an original thinker or a particularly deep one, he's clever rather than smart.  In his mind, he gets to have it both ways by allowing the kids certain things that Gothard is against, but he's still in lockstep with them on the major points.

[Aja]

30 minutes ago, Lemur said:

Yeah, but that was pre-removal from the board of his own cult, like right before it happened.  

I do get what you're saying though.  It's also why Quiverfull is so pernicious and nefarious - these people are clearly breeding like rabbits with a purpose and educating these people in a purposeful way but yet do not want to own up to their real motives.  It's my opinion that JB thinks if he's just slightly different on some minor details, he's not full out QF and thus can't be link to Old Billy Goat Gothard. JB's not an original thinker or a particularly deep one, he's clever rather than smart.  In his mind, he gets to have it both ways by allowing the kids certain things that Gothard is against, but he's still in lockstep with them on the major points.

True--but then why not say a more PR-friendly version of something like "we supported him when we thought that his values were in line with ours, but now that we see they are not, we no longer support him"? I'm more confused by this. That is a totally understandable, rational, sane train of thought. Anybody would find that understandable. Sympathetic. "We were as shocked as you are!" But fundies seem to be deeply allergic to this--like an admission of changing loyalties within the cult is way worse than looking like idiots because anybody can go back and see that, for example, Erin clearly USED to support and be affiliated with Bill Gothard in a pretty significant way, and she doesn't address it at all. Same deal with Josh and just about everbody. Even Mike Huckabee jumped on the "He was only fourteen and they were asleep" train, which is absolutely brain-bendingly bizarre. Mike Huckabee has a semi-serious political career and no motivation, no matter how many different angles I try to squint at the situation from, to publicly support a child-molesting pissant reality TV idiot like Josh Duggar. YOU CAN MAKE MISTAKES. Particularly if your error in judgement is at least partially a result of brainwashing and lies. But it doesn't even have to be that drastic. Take the Amboy Dukes. Let's keep this on a Mike-Huckabee level. I love The Amboy Dukes. I can't help it. They rocked. Is the fact that The Amboy Dukes how Ted Nugent first became famous most unfortunate? Yes. It truly is. Ted Nugent is a lunatic who should be behind bars for pedophelia--but that doesn't lessen my love for early psychedelia, or make early psychedelia any less AWESOME of a genre. It just means there is always a rotten apple. In this case, a rotten apple who lucked into a couple of good guitar solos. Wait what were we talking about?

Edited June 7, 2016 by Aja

[Lemur]

18 minutes ago, Aja said:

True--but then why not say a more PR-friendly version of something like "we supported him when we thought that his values were in line with ours, but now that we see they are not, we no longer support him"? I'm more confused by this. That is a totally understandable, rational, sane train of thought. Anybody would find that understandable. Sympathetic. "We were as shocked as you are!" But fundies seem to be deeply allergic to this--like an admission of changing loyalties within the cult is way worse than looking like idiots because anybody can go back and see that, for example, Erin clearly USED to support and be affiliated with Bill Gothard in a pretty significant way, and she doesn't address it at all. Same deal with Josh and just about everbody. Even Mike Huckabee jumped on the "He was only fourteen and they were asleep" train, which is absolutely brain-bendingly bizarre. Mike Huckabee has a semi-serious political career and no motivation, no matter how many different angles I try to squint at the situation from, to publicly support a child-molesting pissant reality TV idiot like Josh Duggar. YOU CAN MAKE MISTAKES. Particularly if your error in judgement is at least partially a result of brainwashing and lies. But it doesn't even have to be that drastic. Take the Amboy Dukes. Let's keep this on a Mike-Huckabee level. I love The Amboy Dukes. I can't help it. They rocked. Is the fact that The Amboy Dukes how Ted Nugent first became famous most unfortunate? Yes. It truly is. Ted Nugent is a lunatic who should be behind bars for pedophelia--but that doesn't lessen my love for early psychedelia, or make early psychedelia any less AWESOME of a genre. It just means there is always a rotten apple. In this case, a rotten apple who lucked into a couple of good guitar solos. Wait what were we talking about?

But that's the thing .... they can't make mistakes.  And when they do make mistakes (clearly, sooo many mistakes) their reaction is that of a child to hide it instead of own it and learn from it like an adult.  It's a common theme with religious types (hi, Catholic Church, how many times have you done this with your pedo priests?).  To admit the mistake is to admit that God just may have steered them wrong (because these people have a very, very dim view of free will even if they profess to believe in it) when they their faith in a dirty old man.  They would rather retconn events and sell revisionist history than admit that they may be having a crisis of faith publicly or that all their prayer and purposing still got them shit results.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Lemur

[SuspiciousMind]

Sharing a random vignette from this morning that prompted a "Duggar infuriation moment" --

While getting ready for work in the morning, I tend to have the TV tuned to vintage television shows.  I battle daily to keep anxiety under control, and I just can't watch the news.  Anyway, today it was "Petticoat Junction" and I noted an exchange between Billie Jo Bradley and her mother.  Billie Jo is talking to her mother, Kate, about her plans to pursue an entertainment career, which entails leaving home.  Kate expresses to Billie Jo that it can be a rough business with lots of rejection, etc., and asks that Billie Jo rethink things.  Billie Jo asks Kate, "Is that an order or a suggestion?"  Kate calmly responds, "Well, since you're 21, I guess that would be a suggestion."  A totally healthy, respectful and appropriate exchange between mother and adult daughter.  It made me think of the Duggars immediately; how growth moments like this one portrayed on a silly old sitcom likely never occur between the Duggar parents and offspring.  The patriarchal squelching that is a hallmark of their cult can still infuriate me after all these years of watching the Duggars.

[Arwen Evenstar]

3 hours ago, Aja said:

I don't get it either. It's like when Erin Bates had Bill Gothard at her wedding and made him his own special cake and then recently said she neither supported nor was affiliated with him. It would REALLY behoove fundies to figure out how the internet works.

I remember someone posted Kelly that told her daughters they could pierce their ears after they got married. This tells me that at least they give up a good bit of their parental control when their kids marry (yeah Duggars, I'm talking bout you!) 

Unti Erin actually got married, no doubt the cake for Billy Boy was not her idea, and she had to do her parents' bidding. That's my theory.  As soon as she was out of Batesville, she gave Billy Boy the big FU.  

Gothard has to a huge narcissist to make Erin's wedding about him.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Arwen Evenstar

[Whyyouneedaname]

On 5/23/2016 at 10:07 AM, Portia said:

I do not get them citing the weather as the reason their kids don't  play outside. I lived in Arkansas when my kids were young, and our part of the state had hotter summers than the Duggars'. My kids played outside year round because they were normal, active kids and also because I encouraged outdoor exercise it as an important part of a healthy childhood. During the hottest part of the summer, they played outside before 10 am and after supper, or they cooled off in the sprinkler or wading pool.

we got the history lesson on picking cotton if we ever used the "it's too hot to go outside" line. Besides that the first air conditioner that was in our house was put in by me & my husband, I was 8 months pregnant due in August....he is 27, so it hasn't been that long ago. 

[Churchhoney]

10 hours ago, Aja said:

True--but then why not say a more PR-friendly version of something like "we supported him when we thought that his values were in line with ours, but now that we see they are not, we no longer support him"? I'm more confused by this. That is a totally understandable, rational, sane train of thought. Anybody would find that understandable. Sympathetic. "We were as shocked as you are!" But fundies seem to be deeply allergic to this--like an admission of changing loyalties within the cult is way worse than looking like idiots because anybody can go back and see that, for example, Erin clearly USED to support and be affiliated with Bill Gothard in a pretty significant way, and she doesn't address it at all. Same deal with Josh and just about everbody. Even Mike Huckabee jumped on the "He was only fourteen and they were asleep" train, which is absolutely brain-bendingly bizarre. Mike Huckabee has a semi-serious political career and no motivation, no matter how many different angles I try to squint at the situation from, to publicly support a child-molesting pissant reality TV idiot like Josh Duggar. YOU CAN MAKE MISTAKES. Particularly if your error in judgement is at least partially a result of brainwashing and lies. But it doesn't even have to be that drastic. Take the Amboy Dukes. Let's keep this on a Mike-Huckabee level. I love The Amboy Dukes. I can't help it. They rocked. Is the fact that The Amboy Dukes how Ted Nugent first became famous most unfortunate? Yes. It truly is. Ted Nugent is a lunatic who should be behind bars for pedophelia--but that doesn't lessen my love for early psychedelia, or make early psychedelia any less AWESOME of a genre. It just means there is always a rotten apple. In this case, a rotten apple who lucked into a couple of good guitar solos. Wait what were we talking about?

Cause they still actually support him, but now they're lying about it? Cuz it seems to be getting less socially acceptable and might hurt their cd sales, tv-audience appeal, etc.?

Oh, yeah, sure. They've scrutinized his actions and values and their own and they now conclude that these just don't jibe....Uh-huh. Because that's the kind of thing they do. Not.

Just sayin.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Churchhoney

[Aja]

1 minute ago, Churchhoney said:

Cause they still actually support him, but now they're lying about it? Cuz now it seems to be getting less socially acceptable.

Oh, yeah, sure. They've scrutinized his actions and values and their own and they now conclude that these just don't jibe....Uh-huh. Horse hockey.

Just sayin.

Oh, TOTAL horse hockey. But at least it's…like…less gross horse hockey? In the sense that yes, it is a totally lame "out", but at least it's an attempt to put on a show of disavowing…it's the option that DOESN'T imply you think sister-molesting is no big deal. Which, TO ME, would be more appealing option. But then, what do I know, I'm Of Beelzebub. *woot*

[queenanne]

On 6/6/2016 at 9:02 PM, cmr2014 said:

Brought this over from the Seewald thread. I don't know that this is the right thread, because this doesn't infuriate, so much as perplex me.

JB becomes visibly angry when people ask him if he is "Quiverful," or a "Gothardite," but the family is clearly both.

Aside from having Psalm 127 prominently displayed on their web site, the HAVE 19 CHILDREN, and insist that their children include not limiting their own family size in their marriage vows.

They attend Gothard seminars. They school their children with Gothard's "Wisdom booklets" and go to the Gothard homeschoolers' conference at Big Sandy every year. They spend a lot of money to send their children to the Gothard Journey to the Heart and Alert programs. 

They're not shy about any of that. They promote it all endlessly on the show, and on their web site. So what's the deal? Why does calling him "Quiverful" or "Gothardite" make him so angry?

Because "Quiverfulls are weird", and everyone has enough sense to know they sound weird when the tenets are laid out in plain English?  I mean, my folks are evangelicals and they think it's weird.  

Either that, or you're not allowed to be part of/espouse/let on that you're "making God's Army", lest you then lose your ability to sneak up on the heathen??  Like some of those people who would rather let controversial things happen so they can blame someone else, and tiptoe quietly away when it all blows up.

[Lemur]

10 hours ago, queenanne said:

Like some of those people who would rather let controversial things happen so they can blame someone else, and tiptoe quietly away when it all blows up.

You mean like Satan and his incredibly masonry skills?  Dude can through up a fortress in one's heart like nobody's business.

[Sew Sumi]

Don't forget, Satan is also responsible for giving people cancer and other diseases because you're not a good enough Christian. 

[bigskygirl]

I must be a bad person, and the devil is working overtime on me because I am now hypothyroid and another med dosage. The specialist I see must be bad too because he takes two over the counter meds for his allergies and acid reflux disease. He also told me about losing two female patients who were self-medicating themselves and going to a chiropractor and/or naturopathic physicians who changed their med dosage. The devil must have sent me to a bad, bad doctor in another town who misread my thyroid level blood tests and kept me on too high of a dosage for two years. I should have turn to the bible and praying like Cathy did.

Actually when you think about it, the Duggars in a way, self-medicated themselves when it came to trying to fix their sins. I mean how convenient to pass the buck on to the devil, evilness, heathens and hide behind God and the bible. They have taken ignorance and denial to a whole new level.

*sarcasm is a free service I offer*

[Aja]

4 minutes ago, bigskygirl said:

I must be a bad person, and the devil is working overtime on me because I am now hypothyroid and another med dosage. The specialist I see must be bad too because he takes two over the counter meds for his allergies and acid reflux disease. He also told me about losing two female patients who were self-medicating themselves and going to a chiropractor and/or naturopathic physicians who changed their med dosage. The devil must have sent me to a bad, bad doctor in another town who misread my thyroid level blood tests and kept me on too high of a dosage for two years. I should have turn to the bible and praying like Cathy did.

Actually when you think about it, the Duggars in a way, self-medicated themselves when it came to trying to fix their sins. I mean how convenient to pass the buck on to the devil, evilness, heathens and hide behind God and the bible. They have taken ignorance and denial to a whole new level.

*sarcasm is a free service I offer*

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, STOP WEARING PANTS AND START EATING CHIK FIL-A! Now!!!!

In all seriousness: I am so glad you got that ordeal sorted out after suffering for two years. That's awful.

[Sew Sumi]

We are constantly tweaking my thyroid dosage. I must be super possessed by the devil!!!!!11

[Almost 3000]

5 hours ago, bigskygirl said:

he takes two over the counter meds for his allergies and acid reflux disease

oh, oh, oh those two things are being found to be:

Acid reflux asthma symptoms

The predominant symptom of GERD in adults is frequent heartburn (acid indigestion). However, in some adults and most children, GERD will occur without heartburn. Instead, symptoms may appear in the form of asthmatic symptoms such as a chronic dry cough or difficulty swallowing.

[bigskygirl]

8 minutes ago, Almost 3000 said:

oh, oh, oh those two things are being found to be:

Acid reflux asthma symptoms

The predominant symptom of GERD in adults is frequent heartburn (acid indigestion). However, in some adults and most children, GERD will occur without heartburn. Instead, symptoms may appear in the form of asthmatic symptoms such as a chronic dry cough or difficulty swallowing.

I definitely know this. I had tests for swallowing issues, possible Asthma and COPD, and heart issues due to chest pressure after I started taking the thyroid med. Luckily no signs of heart, lung or esophagus damage. I am amaze how GERD can be related to allergies, chest pressure/pain, and sleep apnea. I am on one acid reflux med, one over the counter allergy med, one prescription allergy med, one prescription allergy eye drops, along with my thyroid and blood pressure meds.

Now back to the Duggars. I would love to see someone write a book called The Devil Made Me Do It in reference to the family blaming the devil/Satan for their sins. JB would blow his gaskets if a book came out like that because we all know the Duggars are perfect and evilness and the devil are the real reasons for all their sins and possible medical problems. Of course, another catchy title could be Ignorance is Blessful, and We are Blessful People. Maybe Cathy's husband will be willing to give it a shot. He is about the only one not neck deep in the Duggar Kool-Aid pool. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

 Maybe Cathy's husband will be willing to give it a shot. He is about the only one not neck deep in the Duggar Kool-Aid pool. 

Wait.

[Muffyn]

On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 11:08 AM, Sew Sumi said:

Don't forget, Satan is also responsible for giving people cancer and other diseases because you're not a good enough Christian. 

Unless God is putting the burden on them to bring them closer to Him; a.k.a. the devil or  the lord, you're screwed! 

[Sew Sumi]

Well, Cathy believes God saved her life. What about medical science that allowed her to have the stem cell replacement surgery that wasn't available as recently as 2007 when my dad had NHL. My very Christian dad didn't make it, so I guess, by her logic, the Devil won in his case. Fuck her. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

I thought The Fundy Bunch were virulently opposed to stem cell research/therapy.  Did I miss something? Could someone who knows something about the type of treatment she might have gotten please fill me in?  Thanks in advance.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Arwen Evenstar

[Sew Sumi]

Cathy went to Omaha and had stem cell replacement treatment. I am assuming that they used adult stem cells; the fundies are against embryonic stem cell research/usage. I doubt she had her own reserve, and from what I understand, this was still considered experimental, hence her having to travel for the procedures. 

So, at any rate, we know CATHY doesn't have problems with using (assumed) adult stem cells so God can heal her. I remember Smuggar pontificating about embryonic stem cells back in his days at the FRC, and from what I know of other fundies, this is a universal position across the board for them.

[Aja]

15 hours ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

I thought The Fundy Bunch were virulently opposed to stem cell research/therapy.  Did I miss something? Could someone who knows something about the type of treatment she might have gotten please fill me in?  Thanks in advance.

All fundies operate under the "everyone else is going to hell if they do this, but God understands in my special case" philosophy about pretty much everything. 

[kokapetl]

Everyone has stem cells, I think it was originally just easier to work with embryonic stem cells.  

[Arwen Evenstar]

Former Texas Guv Rick Perry was hell bent on removing choice from Texas women but IIRC HE had stem cell therapy before they were using adult stem cells, and was a major investor in the company. So Aja, your post is absolutely spot on. A good many Fundy and other people of privilege really DO think they're special snowflakes, don't they?

[Sew Sumi]

2 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Everyone has stem cells, I think it was originally just easier to work with embryonic stem cells.  

But if someone has NHL that has metastasized, can they safely use their own? I would expect not. We don't know what kind of stem cells Cathy received, but I certainly understand fundie hypocrisy on the issue.

[JoanArc]

19 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

But if someone has NHL that has metastasized, can they safely use their own? I would expect not. We don't know what kind of stem cells Cathy received, but I certainly understand fundie hypocrisy on the issue.

I saw film of her explaining to Jill and Derick that they were her own stem cells. I believed her.

[Sew Sumi]

Thanks. I somehow missed that.

[Arwen Evenstar]

Thanks for clarifying, everyone.

[Churchhoney]

4 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Everyone has stem cells, I think it was originally just easier to work with embryonic stem cells.  

Embryonic and adult stem cells don't work the same, though. Embyronic ones can potentially be used for many many more things. They have the potential to become any kind of cell in the body. Adult ones, by contrast, have the potential to become only certain kinds of tissue.  In treatment for the liquid cancers, you're basically just using someone else's stem cells of the kind that make the blood to replace your own bloodmaking stem cells that have been destroyed, sometimes by the cancer but inevitably by the very high-dose chemotherapy those cancers are treated with.

There is a point beyond which NHL patients can't have some of their own stem cells extracted to protect them from chemotherapy and then be replaced once the chemotherapy is over, but I guess Cathy had not passed that point. When she described her diagnosis as stage four with a bunch of metastasizing, I would have thought that she had passed that point, but if she said that her whole treatment involved only her own cells, I guess she hadn't. So instead of having someone else's adult stem cells put in to make blood for her in the future, it looks like she just had some of her own stem cells extracted and then returned. 

[Sew Sumi]

Or she said that to placate her son, who had to be torn up inside. She just posted less than a week ago that she was Life-flighted somewhere, and they didn't expect her to make it. She had the stem cell replacement after that. I will go look for the post.

eta: Here is her post, dated 6/13. The wedding was 6/21. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BGl8EUywD7A/?r=1930320973

Edited June 19, 2016 by Sew Sumi

[GeeGolly]

6 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Or she said that to placate her son, who had to be torn up inside. She just posted less than a week ago that she was Life-flighted somewhere, and they didn't expect her to make it. She had the stem cell replacement after that. I will go look for the post.

eta: Here is her post, dated 6/13. The wedding was 6/21. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BGl8EUywD7A/?r=1930320973

"Brain bleed due to a fall 3 wks earlier. No platelets to stop it, thanks to chemo. God stopped it! Went straight from hospital to wedding a week later. Whole story in the book, coming soon!"

And then she had the stem cell transplant while Jill was pregnant, right? The brother flew in to announce they were having a boy at some hospital.

[Sew Sumi]

39 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

"Brain bleed due to a fall 3 wks earlier. No platelets to stop it, thanks to chemo. God stopped it! Went straight from hospital to wedding a week later. Whole story in the book, coming soon!"

And then she had the stem cell transplant while Jill was pregnant, right? The brother flew in to announce they were having a boy at some hospital.

Right. That's when she was in Omaha for the stem cell procedures.

[ginger90]

I knew there was going to be a book. ugh

[Sew Sumi]

Taking my response to the Jerick thread (where we should have had this conversation to begin with) :)

[Defrauder]

They're scumbag grifter scammers who know so little about Christianity that  they proclaim from their ivory tower some distorted version espoused by Gothard and other fundie know nothings who have zero introspection or knowledge for which they claim to have wisdom.