20/20

[Christina]

There were issues with them trying to figure out why his cell phone didn't connect with the daycare. His phone records showed that he called into the main switchboard of Home Depot and pushed the extension to get to the daycare, but for some reason, no one was able to figure out where his call actually went. Det. Stoddard dialed the same numbers, including the extension that showed on JRH's bill, and was able to connect, but JRH's call was logged for a couple of minutes and the video showed there was only one worker in the daycare at that time and she never picked up the phone. Det. Stoddard was unable to determine what the problem was with those calls, and neither were the cell phone carrier or the computer forensic teams. The belief was that his call bounced to a switchboard when it didn't connect correctly, even though he dialed the correct extension, and the LEO at the scene made him hang up his phone, so he didn't know he hadn't reached the daycare. 

I think the person he was talking to as he drove away from work was one of the women he had been having sex with, because they had arranged to meet later that night. At the time Leanna was calling him, I think the LEOs had taken his cell phone from him and already had him handcuffed in the back of a squad car. She also texted him most mornings and when she was leaving work. Their entire relationship seemed to take place in text messages, which is part of the reason Det. Stoddard expected to find evidence of them planning this death in their text messages.

Leanna says she did ask where Cooper was and if she could see him and Det. Stoddard said not right then but she could see her husband. Det. Stoddard says she never asked about Cooper, at all. Having decided they were both involved and guilty from the get go, Det. Stoddard lied about a few things, including the facts in the first search warrant, claims and disclosures that they both searched for children and hot car deaths, mislead and intimidated the girls and women JRH was sexting to such an extent one of the girls reportedly cut herself, and the prostitute he had seen a few times thought he was going to put her in jail for marijuana if she didn't tell him what he wanted to hear. I can understand why he felt that they were both guilty, because they are both strange people, and were both acting suspiciously, but can't respect him knowing that he has probably lied in other cases to shore up his arrests. 

At the time Leanna was at the daycare, the televisions were showing JRH's car at that parking lot and the news was already reporting a kid was forgotten in the back seat of a car. The person who accompanied Leanna to the corporate headquarters had already realized it was JRH's car and the kid was Cooper. It was very odd that he followed her to the main offices when he knew that JRH wasn't there, but he and the daycare worker testified that the situation was overwhelming. I think that they were claiming that she was so distraught that they wanted to make sure she got there okay, but can't remember for sure if that was the testimony at trial.

If Leanna believed it was truly an accident, and I think she did when it first happened and is in denial now, I can see her trying to comfort Ross. It was like he accidentally hit him with the car when he rode his bike behind it. She didn't blame him for what she saw as an accident. I also found her excuse for saying, "Did you say too much?" plausible, because she testified at trial (and I think in this episode) that he was a blow-hard. So did his brother, co-workers, friends from church and the female sex worker. Part of the reason his trial was moved so far away was because the jury pool was pretty full of people who believed the information leaked by Det. Stoddard about them researching hot car deaths, and that the video of Leanna and JRH in the interrogation room where she asked if he said too much and if he wanted to have more kids with her was proof that she was involved. Those two statements, along with her proclaiming that JRH must have left in him the car jumped out when shown on their own, but in the context of the full video, you could see she was trying to comfort him. I can't say for sure how I would react in her situation, and I don't ever want to be in it to find out, but I think it would involve stabbing him in the eye with a pen, not trying to speak calmly to him.

The life insurance wouldn't have paid off their debt, nor put them in a significantly better position. They were in debt but not bankrupt, had some money in savings, and had been house hunting, only stopping when they realized they couldn't live in the school district they wanted to be in until they saved a bit more money. The State wasn't able to link the life insurance policies to anything in this case, such as him wanting the money to buy his teenage girlfriend a car, etc. The policies had existed since his birth, and were connected to the policies of his parents. 

In my opinion, Justin Ross Harris murdered his son and Det. Stoddard helped him victimize his wife. Det. Stoddard released incorrect information to the media, admitted on the stand that he knew it wasn't correct, continues to point fingers at Leanna all the while saying that the investigation is closed because they didn't have the evidence to charge anyone else, and admitted that some of the evidence collected originally, such as receipts and surveillance video, disappeared and had to be collected again. Fortunately, the media had copies, since someone from the department leaked it. The "facts" that were disclosed and widely circulated in the media before the trial and the facts that were proven at trial were significantly different. Chuck Boring, the prosecutor, had a mess of issues as a result of Stoddard the the P.D., and lost several pre-trial motions to the benefit of the defense. It was his office that discovered text from JRH saying he needed a break from his son. If Leanna is guilty, she will be walking free forever because of the behaviors of the police department.

[Ina123]

On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 2:08 AM, Lola16 said:

RJH usually drops off Cooper at daycare from 8:30-9:15. Yet that day he gets into work much later. Then after 10am, she texts RJH to ask him if he got to work ok.  Well, why wouldn't he? Sunny day. No reason he wouldn't. Does she text him every day to make sure he gets to work OK? Doubt it. She's checking to make sure all is going according to plan.

 

I don't doubt that this "looks" suspicious but I have a co-worker who calls his wife every morning at 7:03ish just to say, "I'm here".  A half hour later she calls him and says, "I'm here" when she arrives at her office. Other than that, he's rarely on the phone.

[Lola16]

11 hours ago, Ina123 said:

I don't doubt that this "looks" suspicious but I have a co-worker who calls his wife every morning at 7:03ish just to say, "I'm here".  A half hour later she calls him and says, "I'm here" when she arrives at her office. Other than that, he's rarely on the phone.

My dad used to check in on me my first year of working. Nothing suspicious if Leanna did this every day. Did she? If not, it's helluva suspicious.

[Lola16]

On 2/20/2017 at 2:16 AM, Christina said:

There were issues with them trying to figure out why his cell phone didn't connect with the daycare. His phone records showed that he called into the main switchboard of Home Depot and pushed the extension to get to the daycare, but for some reason, no one was able to figure out where his call actually went. 

•  I read that he called a training room at HQ. Where was it reported that it was daycare?

Leanna says she did ask where Cooper was and if she could see him and Det. Stoddard said not right then but she could see her husband. Det. Stoddard says she never asked about Cooper, at all.  

• I didn't hear her say on the show that she asked to see Cooper. That would have been a good time to mention it since she is all about changing the narrative. (Who talks like that about their dead child??)

Having decided they were both involved and guilty from the get go, Det. Stoddard lied about a few things, including the facts in the first search warrant, claims and disclosures that they both searched for children and hot car deaths, 

•  Since Ross had wiped his searched and said this was a fear of his, and Leanna said the same thing, well... doesn't prove they did or didn't search for anything.

If Leanna believed it was truly an accident, and I think she did when it first happened and is in denial now, I can see her trying to comfort Ross. It was like he accidentally hit him with the car when he rode his bike behind it. She didn't blame him for what she saw as an accident. I also found her excuse for saying, "Did you say too much?" plausible, because she testified at trial (and I think in this episode) that he was a blow-hard. So did his brother, co-workers, friends from church and the female sex worker. Part of the reason his trial was moved so far away was because the jury pool was pretty full of people who believed the information leaked by Det. Stoddard about them researching hot car deaths, and that the video of Leanna and JRH in the interrogation room where she asked if he said too much and if he wanted to have more kids with her was proof that she was involved. Those two statements, along with her proclaiming that JRH must have left in him the car jumped out when shown on their own, but in the context of the full video, you could see she was trying to comfort him. I can't say for sure how I would react in her situation, and I don't ever want to be in it to find out, but I think it would involve stabbing him in the eye with a pen, not trying to speak calmly to him.

• She has just learned her only child is dead. Even if she believes it's an accident, why isn't she upset? Why isn't she saying "It's OK Ross, I know you love Cooper. It was an accident."?  Why is her first concern that he might have said too much? F-that excuse about his brother being a cop and him being a blowhard. I know no-one knows how they'd react but she was very calm and he turned the waterworks and theatrics on and off.

The life insurance wouldn't have paid off their debt, nor put them in a significantly better position. They were in debt but not bankrupt, had some money in savings, and had been house hunting, only stopping when they realized they couldn't live in the school district they wanted to be in until they saved a bit more money. The State wasn't able to link the life insurance policies to anything in this case, such as him wanting the money to buy his teenage girlfriend a car, etc. The policies had existed since his birth, and were connected to the policies of his parents. 

• Did he or did he not give instructions that day on how to cash in on the policies? 27K$ in total would have paid off the credit card debt and paid down the cars. If he was looking to get out of the relationship, have less debt and not incur more in the form of child support, well 27K$ goes a long way.

[Christina]

Formatting is really screwy, huh? This will probably be all choppy to read now, but at least I was able to make paragraphs:

Up until the trial, I thought Leanna was in on it. During the trial, the computer forensics were clear, from the State and the Defense: there were no searches for hot car deaths, only the one Reddit link that JRH watched from the veterinarian. Nothing at all on Leanna's electronics. The news in that region has portions discussing leaving kids and pets in the car during the heat and humidity because it happens, but there was no testimony about any recent news report, it was just discussed by us trial watchers. It's not an unknown to anyone who lives there that you cannot leave kids in the car. It's not unknown to anyone anywhere that you shouldn't leave kids in the car, but that area has heat and humidity that is deadly much sooner than say my area of Ohio.

The only thing he wiped from his computer was a website he was working on for someone at his church, it was a counselling office, and he did the website changes in Chrome and then had to wipe it each time so it would load the changes when he pulled the website up the next time. This was belabored at the trial, non-stop, those were the only deletions, and Det. Stoddard admitted that the first search warrant that said he searched for hot car deaths was untruthful and that JRH did not ever say that, and he knew it was untrue when he asked for it to be typed with those words. We also saw the entire interview with Det. Stoddard. JRH opened his mouth and all kinds of words poured out. He could not shut up. It seemed clear during that interview that JRH was being untruthful, and I think Det. Stoddard expected to find the evidence he was claiming in the search warrant. The actual untruth involved his extra-marital affairs and teenage girlfriend. If he had deleted that stuff, it probably wouldn't have been searched for and recovered and he may have gotten away with murdering his son. But as the computer forensics expert said, people don't want to go and collect the porn again.

After Det. Stoddard told him he was being detained, he asked for a lawyer and Det. Stoddard didn't ask any other questions, but JRH started getting irritated and the other officer in the room turned on his cell phone camera since the room camera was turned off when he said he wanted an attorney. It showed JRH demanding to know what "malicious intent" they had because it was clearly an accident. "Malicious intent" isn't a term used in Georgia, but was used in the state his brother is a LEO in and in which JRH worked as a dispatcher, and that was the final straw as far as Det. Stoddard was concerned that this was intentional not accidental. JRH seemed to know the law, and Det. Stoddard expected to find it on his computer or phone, but didn't. JRH didn't think he should be being held for his son dying while in his care because he was so arrogant he thought they would buy it was an accident. His entire demeanor changed in those few seconds.

JRH said he was trying to reach the daycare because he expected Leanna to be there in the first interview with Det. Stoddard, and the telephone information subpoenaed from the carrier showed the numbers he dialed, which were the main number and the extension to reach the daycare. The call didn't connect to the daycare and they could see on the video that the worker in the daycare never answered the phone, but he was ordered to hang up by the police officer who arrived on scene and they never figured out where the call went. He was on the phone for a few minutes, and they think it didn't connect and sent him back to the switchboard at which time he was unable to enter the extension again because he was arguing with the cop, and it disconnected. But no one could say for sure what happened, only what would have happened if he didn't connect the first time.

The only place I remember hearing that he had instructed someone on how to claim the life insurance was on one of the news tabloidish shows. I think they claimed it came from one of the jail telephone calls, and possibly played it because it's familiar to me, but those weren't played at trial because the life insurance couldn't be mentioned. I do not doubt that JRH wanted the insurance money, too. I think he planned this out and carried it out and the money may have been a factor in his ultimate decision, but without it he still would have killed Cooper. However, there was nothing at the trial that pointed toward Leanna knowing anything about it prior, several different people claiming JRH was a blowhard (including non-family and co-workers), that Leanna completely broke down in the police department after speaking to JRH, and Det. Stoddard and other law enforcement officers saying that they didn't have anything to suggest Leanna was involved and that their file was closed. 

Both JRH and Leanna were tried in the court of public opinion and judged guilty, by me included. At the trial, only JRH was proven guilty and it really looks like Leanna's name was drug through the mud based on a hunch by a cop because she is odd. Other people who watched the trial still think she is involved, but most of us changed our opinions. I'm not going to change any opinions of people who think she is guilty, but it seems like a lot of her guilt is based on information released that turned out to be untrue; information that was released by law enforcement who knew it was untrue. 

I wonder what the appellate court will do with the first search warrant that Det. Stoddard admitted wasn't truthful, even though the Prosecution is claiming it's semantics, because if that search warrant is out, then the photo of the nude 15-year-old is out, and that is what lead to the second search warrant which lead to the information that got him convicted. The second warrant Det. Stoddard got was valid and that's why this information was allowed at trial. If he were to walk away from this because Det. Stoddard played fast and loose with his wording to secure a search warrant, I'll be pissed. Just like in the Avery case, I don't think the cops should get away with this behavior, and I don't think the murderers should walk away from their crimes. In this case more than in Avery, all the evidence flowed from that first warrant whereas in Avery, I think there was enough other evidence to convict him. In this case, I don't know what to think because it all flows from the first one, and if that isn't valid, the the correct legal decision is to not allow the information gleaned from it, and I don't think there is anything outside of it to convict him, and he walks free. That issue and the fact that Leanna was implicated with no evidence other than her behavior being viewed as odd make me really uncomfortable with the investigation in this case, and I don't like that when it comes to believing people should be locked away for life.

[walnutqueen]

Can I just say, if I'm ever in unfounded legal trouble, I'd like to be able to call on you, Christina?  "Cause I lost faith in Kathleen Zellner after the whole Stephen Avery shite - but you, my dear, are someone I'd want in my corner!  :-D

[RedheadZombie]

I'm finding this topic slightly enraging.  I'm sensing seeds of the JonBenet Ramsay case, and it's so frustrating.  The opposing arguments here are diametrically opposed.  This isn't different interpretations of vague facts.   There are alternative facts that are repeated ad infinitum, no matter how many times they are debunked.  I blame Nancy Grace and her ilk.  In twenty years, there will be people still arguing that this woman studied articles on child hot car deaths, and how she didn't react and grief properly. 

[Ina123]

It's just in my make-up to act stoic with bad news. I'm calm and cool in emergencies. I have my breakdowns in privacy. Lord help me if I'm ever accused. I'll get the "she didn't act right" accusation.

[Christina]

My dad passed away when I was fourteen. Because he was active duty, the Air Force was paying to send him back home to where his mother lived to be buried in the cemetery where his father was buried. The school refused to excuse our absence for more than two days, even though we were flying to Ohio to bury our father. I was standing in the office with information that showed his funeral was in Ohio and arguing with the secretary to put it in my file and my sister's file while she was saying she wouldn't take it. A boy behind me said, "You're father died last week? Why are you here? I'd be in a puddle crying." A State Senator actually had to get involved and shame the school board into accepting our absences because my sister would not have been allowed to graduate with her class that year with the extra unexcused absences.

As I was standing in that office, his death wasn't even real to me yet. It was a few weeks before the numb wore off and a few months before the realization that he was never coming back set in. He deployed many times during my childhood, which may explain some of reason it took time, but the fact is, everyone grieves differently.

The first time I realized how the public tore people apart was a few years later when Sabrina Ainsenberg disappeared and the police were leading the parents to the car when one said something to the mom and she smiled. It was immediate exclamations of her guilt because she smiled. I can't tell you how many times I had to try and paste a smile on my face because someone was trying to say something to cheer me up in the days after my father passed, but when I would say that to people, they would still say, "But your child wasn't missing!" I have another friend who has a nervous laugh and anxious smile problem. She would have been in handcuffs as soon as the cops opened the door. My son is on the Autism Spectrum and doesn't show what the world would view as "appropriate" emotional responses. I fear for him ever having to talk to the cops.

I can put myself in Leanna's position because of that personal experience in the school office and viewing my friend and son's reactions to things. She hadn't seen her son yet, she didn't know her husband did it intentionally, she just knew he was being held for what she thought was an accident because she didn't believe he would do such a thing. It is possible that the reality of the situation had not hit her until after speaking to her husband. She was trying to comfort him because she thought he accidentally killed her son and she loved him.

Yet, even with my personal experiences, I STILL thought she was involved at first, based on the information released to the media by the cops, including the search warrants that said she researched hot car deaths, and the clips of her behavior. Just the video clips and I probably could have put myself in her shoes based on my past experiences, but add the subpoena saying she researched hot car deaths to the video clip of her asking, "Did you say too much?" and I wanted to know why she wasn't in handcuffs. Well, it's because part of it wasn't true. Det. Stoddard's actions in this case, the Manitowoc Sheriff's Dept in Avery, and half the Prosecuting attorneys and experts in the Michael Peterson cases fuel these conspiracy theories. Every single person in the Jon Benet case cause the conspiracy theories. That's a tangled web that will likely never be un-weaved. It will certainly never be prosecuted.

Leanna admitted during the trial that she was not following it, did not wish to be in the room, and was not watching the live stream. She doesn't want to know all the facts. If she did know the facts, she wouldn't be able to continue with her denial of those facts, and would have to accept that her husband killed her son on purpose. She won't be able to get away from those facts if she continues to try and be an advocate for not forgetting your kids are in the car. The facts convict her husband, but absolve her guilt. Still, she can't win if she wants to deny it was intentional so that she can speak for her son and make his death count for something. This is a bad idea, especially since people still think she was involved.

[ChiCricket]

13 hours ago, Christina said:

. She won't be able to get away from those facts if she continues to try and be an advocate for not forgetting your kids are in the car. The facts convict her husband, but absolve her guilt. Still, she can't win if she wants to deny it was intentional so that she can speak for her son and make his death count for something. This is a bad idea, especially since people still think she was involved.

Because of cases like these, I have become addicted to reading the forums at  http://www.websleuths.com/forums/

Edited March 1, 2017 by ChiCricket
Needed trimming

[walnutqueen]

Since I'm probably headed for hell anyways, I'll just say it.  The "Christian pastor" who gave names to his gay-beating belts?  May just learn you can't pray away the gay during his 20 year prison stint.  I hope, because I don't pray.

[BusyOctober]

It always shocks me when I see stories about such violent, hate filled, closed minded bigotry.  I say shocked because after all these years, and all the exposure via media to "alternative" lifestyles,  these kinds of assholes exist and spew their vitriol proudly.  Seeing these entire communities of unmitigated ignorance makes me understand what it must have been like to be an anthropologist discovering some enclave of a lost tribe.  

The hypocrisy of these religious fanatics is astounding.  I'm not a believer, but I wish Jesus, Mohammad, and the rest of their holy crew would "come back" as promised to set these fuckers straight.  The message of these prophets is predominantly "peace, love, understanding, charity, kindness..." How these beliefs got so manipulated is beyond my understanding.  Am I correct that for some of these so called faithful and church going freaks its better to torture and possibly  kill one's child than a have a LBGTQ child?  In 2017?!? 

[walnutqueen]

8 hours ago, BusyOctober said:

It always shocks me when I see stories about such violent, hate filled, closed minded bigotry.  I say shocked because after all these years, and all the exposure via media to "alternative" lifestyles,  these kinds of assholes exist and spew their vitriol proudly.  Seeing these entire communities of unmitigated ignorance makes me understand what it must have been like to be an anthropologist discovering some enclave of a lost tribe.  

The hypocrisy of these religious fanatics is astounding.  I'm not a believer, but I wish Jesus, Mohammad, and the rest of their holy crew would "come back" as promised to set these fuckers straight.  The message of these prophets is predominantly "peace, love, understanding, charity, kindness..." How these beliefs got so manipulated is beyond my understanding.  Am I correct that for some of these so called faithful and church going freaks its better to torture and possibly  kill one's child than a have a LBGTQ child?  In 2017?!? 

You need to go to the Viceland channel, stat.  Then watch "Hate Thy Neighbor" with an emesis basin at the ready.  Then get back to me about 2017.

[JaggedLilPill]

Parents who do this to their kids should IMO have their parental rights terminated. 

And the guy who helped his cousin get out of that place, her parents actually had the gall to say they love their daughter unconditionally? Whatever. 

[ari333]

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 0:13 PM, BusyOctober said:

It always shocks me when I see stories about such violent, hate filled, closed minded bigotry.  I say shocked because after all these years, and all the exposure via media to "alternative" lifestyles,  these kinds of assholes exist and spew their vitriol proudly.  Seeing these entire communities of unmitigated ignorance makes me understand what it must have been like to be an anthropologist discovering some enclave of a lost tribe.  

The hypocrisy of these religious fanatics is astounding.  I'm not a believer, but I wish Jesus, Mohammad, and the rest of their holy crew would "come back" as promised to set these fuckers straight.  The message of these prophets is predominantly "peace, love, understanding, charity, kindness..." How these beliefs got so manipulated is beyond my understanding.  Am I correct that for some of these so called faithful and church going freaks its better to torture and possibly  kill one's child than a have a LBGTQ child?  In 2017?!? 

THIS ^^^^^^

[RedheadZombie]

Can we please have a moratorium on Nancy Grace?  Ever since I learned of her lies regarding the death of her precious fiancé Keith, I can't bear that know it all smart ass.  She's nasty - and not in a good way.

[walnutqueen]

39 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

Can we please have a moratorium on Nancy Grace?  Ever since I learned of her lies regarding the death of her precious fiancé Keith, I can't bear that know it all smart ass.  She's nasty - and not in a good way.

I've despised her since the moment she appeared on my radar screen.

I remember getting a whole bunch of likes for a post I made somewhere, in a response to something someone said "that didn't make Nancy Grace's head explode".   My reply?  "Pity".

When I was a child, an uncle from Germany visited.  He didn't speak a word of English, but another uncle taught him two words : "Shaddup, stupid!".  :-)

[ButterQueen]

On 3/27/2017 at 10:13 PM, RedheadZombie said:

Can we please have a moratorium on Nancy Grace?  Ever since I learned of her lies regarding the death of her precious fiancé Keith, I can't bear that know it all smart ass.  She's nasty - and not in a good way.

What lies?

[Lovecat]

11 hours ago, ButterQueen said:

What lies?

From Nancy Grace's Wikipedia article:

In March 2006, an article in the New York Observer suggested that in her book Objection!, Grace had embellished the story of her college fiancé's 1979 murder and the ensuing trial to make it better support her image. Grace has described the tragedy as the impetus for her career as a prosecutor and victims' rights advocate, and has often publicly referred to the incident. The Observer researched the murder and found several apparent contradictions between the events and Grace's subsequent statements, including the following:

• Her fiancé, Keith Griffin, was not shot at random by a stranger, but by a former coworker, Tommy McCoy.
• McCoy did not have a prior criminal record
• Rather than denying the crime, McCoy confessed on the night of the murder.
• The jury deliberated for a few hours, not days.
• There was no ongoing string of appeals (McCoy's family did not want any). McCoy has only once filed a habeas petition, which was rejected.

There's a bit more, about a media tiff with Keith Olbermann.  Mr. Google should be able to point the way.

[Wings]

On 2/27/2017 at 1:00 PM, Ina123 said:

It's just in my make-up to act stoic with bad news. I'm calm and cool in emergencies. I have my breakdowns in privacy. Lord help me if I'm ever accused. I'll get the "she didn't act right" accusation.

I do that, too.  Shock is a factor that makes many calm in the immediate face of tragedy, as well.  It drives me nuts when I hear a cop say a person is not acting 'properly.' 

[Wings]

On 3/11/2017 at 10:13 AM, BusyOctober said:

It always shocks me when I see stories about such violent, hate filled, closed minded bigotry.  I say shocked because after all these years, and all the exposure via media to "alternative" lifestyles,  these kinds of assholes exist and spew their vitriol proudly.  Seeing these entire communities of unmitigated ignorance makes me understand what it must have been like to be an anthropologist discovering some enclave of a lost tribe.  

The hypocrisy of these religious fanatics is astounding.  I'm not a believer, but I wish Jesus, Mohammad, and the rest of their holy crew would "come back" as promised to set these fuckers straight.  The message of these prophets is predominantly "peace, love, understanding, charity, kindness..." How these beliefs got so manipulated is beyond my understanding.  Am I correct that for some of these so called faithful and church going freaks its better to torture and possibly  kill one's child than a have a LBGTQ child?  In 2017?!? 

Standing ovation and thundering applause!!   YES.  I have said, many times,  I want to go back in a time machine and jot down what Jesus and these guys REALLY said to set everyone straight!   

[JaggedLilPill]

I've never watched a lot of Nancy Grace since she tends to bug. She comes across too smug for my liking.

 

Also, I just have to mention that this past Saturday's episode of 20/20 was all kinds of victim blamey, racist, and gross.  The Daniel Holtzclaw supporters are really something else. "Well, the women were prostitutes and druggies so who cares if they were sexually assaulted?" And "Why would DH target them when clearly, he's so attractive he can have anybody?"

Well, gee, let's think on that. Why wouldn't he target someone who had a more affluent background with no record? Yeah, that's a stumper! Maybe because then he would have gotten caught a lot sooner. It wasn't about attraction for him; it was about power.  He thought he could wield his badge around women who had records and convictions and that they wouldn't say anything.

Even with the inconsistencies in the statements, I think he's guilty and I don't feel bad that he's behind bars. 

I tend to be very jaded and cynical, but I don't believe that 13 women would all lie. Why would they lie? Why exposes yourself to all of that media scrutiny? I always find it strange when people immediately jump to the "they're lying!" when it comes to rape/sexual assault. Are there people out there who might? Sure, anything is possible. But I doubt a majority of people would lie. Hell, this is why most victims don't come forward. 

Plus, just because someone starts a lawsuit, that doesn't guarantee that they'll win anything so the handout argument doesn't fit either for me.

[RedheadZombie]

On April 3, 2017 at 10:51 PM, ButterQueen said:

What lies?

What Lovecat said. Plus, she also claimed for a long time that she witnessed Keith's murder. 

[Calamity Jane]

On 2/27/2017 at 0:00 PM, Ina123 said:

It's just in my make-up to act stoic with bad news. I'm calm and cool in emergencies. I have my breakdowns in privacy. Lord help me if I'm ever accused. I'll get the "she didn't act right" accusation.

Same here, I get icy calm to deal with an emergency, break down later.  When my son fell and broke his arm, I rushed him over to his doctor, who took us to an orthopedist in the same building, who thought because I was calm and able to recount what had happened that I had caused the break myself.  He took my son off to talk to without me (he was 7, and pretty scared), and only eased up once I cried.  I've never forgotten it, and I have the same fear about someone deciding I'm not reacting right and being accused of something.  I hate it every time I hear a law enforcement official use that to explain their suspicions of someone, and it always makes me automatically side with the accused, until there's a whole lot more than someone's judgment that someone isn't acting in just the right way.  

[LittleIggy]

The basketball player and the internet bimbo were both idiots. They deserved to be catfished.

[Zahdii]

1 hour ago, LittleIggy said:

The basketball player and the internet bimbo were both idiots. They deserved to be catfished.

Shelly?  Is that you?  I thought you weren't supposed to be on the computer any more.

[BusyOctober]

So many questions about the catfish story...

How old was Shelly?  I heard 33, but she didn't look a day over 17 to me.  She had the emotional IQ of an 8 yr old though.  Her husband seems like he's functioning at a 3rd grade level as well.And in Canada, if you marry a non-Canadian, they don't get whatever the Canadian equivelant of a green card?  The spouse needs to come and go periodically? Odd, but the whole story is odd, so not sure why I am surprised. The Kardashian wanna be and her social media "celebrity" .  Ugh.  The girl was posting provocative photos of herself since she was a teenager?  And her parents didn't know anything about it?  I get that some teens are excellent con artists and deceive their parents, but in this day and age, don't parents know they should be checking in on their kids' internet activity? I feel bad the girl and the NBA guy were used and duped like that, but again...in this day and age, shouldn't people be more internet savvy?? And Paris (again...ugh) had a weekend hook up with the one player, then is getting all excited about meeting another one.  Maybe she wouldn't have had sex with the next one, but she seems to put herself in potentially dangerous situations.  Anything for "fame and followers" I guess?  Thank God I grew up in the 80's.  I'm also thankful I have the common sense God gave a goat and know as a parent of a teen, I should be in my kids computer daily to see what she's sending and receiving.

[Neurochick]

Maybe there is something wrong with me, but I kind of felt for Shelly.  She did look older to me, she was trying to look young, but her face looked older.  I mean here's this woman, living in a remote area, taking care of her mother who's sick.  She can't go out and hang out with friends probably because everything is SO far away, and she can't leave her mother.  Shelly said she was bullied in school, I can believe that, depending on the social structure of the school.  I had teen relatives, who lived in a town where, if you didn't play sports, or were a cheerleader, you were seen as "odd," and that was in the late 1990's.  

So, she probably got on the computer and just looked around Facebook and Instagram, and saw all these young women whose lives she might have wanted to have.  "Gee, I wish I had her confidence."  The reason she kept it going was because, sometimes when you do things online, especially if you don't personally know the people, you don't see people as real.  I've read some nasty comments on Twitter, or Daily Mail, when folks are ragging on some celebrity; it's almost like, you don't see people on the Internet as real live people.

I do wonder if she'll end up in jail in Colorado.  

[Snickerdoodle]

On 4/15/2017 at 8:40 AM, BusyOctober said:

 The Kardashian wanna be and her social media "celebrity" .  Ugh.  The girl was posting provocative photos of herself since she was a teenager?  And her parents didn't know anything about it?  I get that some teens are excellent con artists and deceive their parents, but in this day and age, don't parents know they should be checking in on their kids' internet activity? I feel bad the girl and the NBA guy were used and duped like that, but again...in this day and age, shouldn't people be more internet savvy?? And Paris (again...ugh) had a weekend hook up with the one player, then is getting all excited about meeting another one.  Maybe she wouldn't have had sex with the next one, but she seems to put herself in potentially dangerous situations.  Anything for "fame and followers" I guess?  Thank God I grew up in the 80's.  I'm also thankful I have the common sense God gave a goat and know as a parent of a teen, I should be in my kids computer daily to see what she's sending and receiving.

Yeah, I didn't feel that bad for Paris, really.  I was kind of shocked when Paris said she told her mom she was going to visit her boyfriend (when instead she was going to see the basketball player.)  What did her mom say?  "OK honey, have a good time." ?  Mom had to know he daughter was up to something, especially since she was going to all those basketball games.  Or maybe mom just didn't care?

Speaking of that, it sounded to me like Paris was a basketball player groupie.  She was establishing a relationship with the one guy and then she was like, oh, I got tickets to see this other guy!   I'm sure they aren't the only basketball players Paris has "stalked."  And then she said when she went to see Andersen, she was bashful/embarrassed?  She's been sending him nudes and she's embarrassed when she's with him?  I just don't get it.  I also felt like 20/20 was trying to paint Paris as a poor, poor victim in this.  She is a victim in the sense that she was scammed, but she did not suffer consequences like Andersen did.  Paris came out pretty good in the end - she got what she wanted, which was a weekend with Andersen.  This almost ruined Andersen's career and some serious accusations were raised against him.  I hope that now he is more careful about who he invites back to his hotel room.

And also, Birdman?  Seriously?  They let him have that on the back of his jersey?

I also wanted to know how Shelly had contact with Andersen.  How did she get his number?

[ButterQueen]

On 4/7/2017 at 3:06 AM, RedheadZombie said:

What Lovecat said. Plus, she also claimed for a long time that she witnessed Keith's murder. 

So, they weren't together?

[Maharincess]

On 4/15/2017 at 2:29 PM, Neurochick said:

Maybe there is something wrong with me, but I kind of felt for Shelly.  She did look older to me, she was trying to look young, but her face looked older.  I mean here's this woman, living in a remote area, taking care of her mother who's sick.  She can't go out and hang out with friends probably because everything is SO far away, and she can't leave her mother.  Shelly said she was bullied in school, I can believe that, depending on the social structure of the school.  I had teen relatives, who lived in a town where, if you didn't play sports, or were a cheerleader, you were seen as "odd," and that was in the late 1990's.  

So, she probably got on the computer and just looked around Facebook and Instagram, and saw all these young women whose lives she might have wanted to have.  "Gee, I wish I had her confidence."  The reason she kept it going was because, sometimes when you do things online, especially if you don't personally know the people, you don't see people as real.  I've read some nasty comments on Twitter, or Daily Mail, when folks are ragging on some celebrity; it's almost like, you don't see people on the Internet as real live people.

I do wonder if she'll end up in jail in Colorado.  

I felt the same way.  What she did was shitty as hell but for the reasons you said, I get why she did it.   They literally lived in the middle of nowhere, she had a bedridden mother to care for and I hate to say it but Shelley seemed a bit slow.  The only life she had was on the Internet.   I wonder if she'll do it again once the internet restrictions are lifted. It doesn't seem like she will be getting out of where she lives any time soon so I can see her doing it again. 

[Zahdii]

3 hours ago, Maharincess said:

...What she did was shitty as hell but...I get why she did it.   They literally lived in the middle of nowhere, she had a bedridden mother to care for and I hate to say it but Shelley seemed a bit slow.  The only life she had was on the Internet.   I wonder if she'll do it again once the internet restrictions are lifted. It doesn't seem like she will be getting out of where she lives any time soon so I can see her doing it again. 

I don't see Shelly as being slow at all.  She was able to teach herself how to dig up private phone numbers and email addresses.  She was able to see what motivated the people she was catfishing and set them up in a complicated scam; and even figured out how to get some money out of the basketball player.

I can see how she turned to the internet to enter the outside world because she was literally stuck at home with no prospects of being able to leave, but she did it in a particularly vicious way, so I think there is a personality disorder there, but not a low IQ.

Shelly says she had to quit school because she was bullied, but we don't know if that was true.  It's more likely that she was forced to quit to take care of her mother and her resentment caused her subsequent behavior.  But the people she catfished didn't do anything to Shelly.  She played them, used them, and then blamed them.  Her lukewarm 'apology' to the girl and her professed ignorance of what happened to the basketball player spoke volumes.

I can't even believe her relationship with her new husband is normal.  I suspect that he was conned in a different way.  Sure, she presented herself as Shelly from Canada, a lonely woman taking care of a bedridden mother and in need of a friend.  There was something about their relationship that made Rob's family suspicious of her, but I think he loved the idea of being a white knight to a damsel in distress.  I'm not sure of the exact timeline of when Shelly made contact with Rob, but I wonder if she was hoping to use him to emigrate to the US.

Whatever her original motivations were for forming a relationship with Rob, it's obvious that Shelly didn't get the usual payback from her interactions with him.  Instead, she got a guy who believes in her, loves her, has met her in real life and married her.  I think he's also been trying to raise money for her legal defense in case she gets sent to the US for trial.  Even if that doesn't happen, Shelly now has company caring for her mom.

Is anyone else waiting for a pregnancy announcement?

[Tenarife60]

15 hours ago, Zahdii said:

I can't even believe her relationship with her new husband is normal.  I suspect that he was conned in a different way.  Sure, she presented herself as Shelly from Canada, a lonely woman taking care of a bedridden mother and in need of a friend.  There was something about their relationship that made Rob's family suspicious of her, but I think he loved the idea of being a white knight to a damsel in distress. 

I have a cousin who is like that.  He met a woman very similar to Shelly.  A high school dropout, in her 30's living with her mother (who was in a wheelchair) on welfare (Supplemental Security Income).   I think it's partly the damsel in distress and partly because he knows this uneducated, loser woman would never run out on him like a woman probably would who has a job or a career.  They've been married for 20 years so he was right about her never leaving as long as she has a meal-ticket.

[Tenarife60]

I don't know if it was said but how did Rob pay to fly to Canada and then rent a car to drive five hours to Shelly's house?  They did say he was working as a furniture mover in the States, but I don't know if he kept doing that after he would have extended stays in Canada.  I'm fairly certain he wasn't working while he was in Canada, but maybe once he returned to New York he would go back to his old job as a furniture mover to save up money.  I'm always curious about things like that: how is it that people who are so poor get the money to do those things.

[Tenarife60]

I wonder if Caitlyn Jenner is really happy "being a woman" when so many people say they can tell right away she's really a male.  Something they didn't say, but I wondered about, is if people are that vicious and cruel to her face like they are on online posts.  I thought she did once say she had body guards but maybe that was only for a certain amount of time.

[saber5055]

I was wondering if Caitlyn is really happy now too, although not because she still has a masculine appearance or is getting ranked on by haters, but rather after waiting all those years, planning and looking forward to finally being a woman, if now she feels a vague letdown, that her life didn't change all that much, there is no goal to look forward to. Plus, now she's stuck as a woman. And I mean by that, women face a lot of discrimination in and out of the workforce and in the world in general, something that men don't fully understand or appreciate. So, welcome to a minority, Caitlyn. I wish you all the best, and hope you stay strong.

[stillhere1900]

On 4/22/2017 at 2:06 PM, KittyKat94 said:

I wonder if Caitlyn Jenner is really happy "being a woman" when so many people say they can tell right away she's really a male.  Something they didn't say, but I wondered about, is if people are that vicious and cruel to her face like they are on online posts.  I thought she did once say she had body guards but maybe that was only for a certain amount of time.

IMO , Caitlyn Jenner not only still looks "male",  Caitlyn Jenner still sounds "male" 

[CaughtOnTape]

On 4/16/2017 at 11:25 AM, Snickerdoodle said:

I also felt like 20/20 was trying to paint Paris as a poor, poor victim in this.  She is a victim in the sense that she was scammed, but she did not suffer consequences like Andersen did.  Paris came out pretty good in the end - she got what she wanted, which was a weekend with Andersen.  

Please go back and rewatch this episode.  

She had nude pictures of her posted on the internet.  I highly doubt that's what she wanted.  She was lied to and taken advantage of.  I mean....really?  For all the whining people do about how they feel bullied by "pretty people" comments like this prove that pretty people are also victimized.  I mean...who cares that her nude photos were posted on the internet!  She's beautiful and skinny and has straight white teeth!  What does she have to complain about?  

Gimme a break.

[Snickerdoodle]

7 hours ago, CaughtOnTape said:

Please go back and rewatch this episode.  

She had nude pictures of her posted on the internet.  I highly doubt that's what she wanted.  She was lied to and taken advantage of.  I mean....really?  For all the whining people do about how they feel bullied by "pretty people" comments like this prove that pretty people are also victimized.  I mean...who cares that her nude photos were posted on the internet!  She's beautiful and skinny and has straight white teeth!  What does she have to complain about?  

Gimme a break.

 

7 hours ago, CaughtOnTape said:

Please go back and rewatch this episode.  

She had nude pictures of her posted on the internet.  I highly doubt that's what she wanted.  She was lied to and taken advantage of.  I mean....really?  For all the whining people do about how they feel bullied by "pretty people" comments like this prove that pretty people are also victimized.  I mean...who cares that her nude photos were posted on the internet!  She's beautiful and skinny and has straight white teeth!  What does she have to complain about?  

Gimme a break.

Paris wasn't facing jail time though.  The embarrassment of having nude pictures out there does not equal the stigma of being accused of being a pedophile in my mind.

[lor]

i watched tonight about addiction to the internet and video games.  i kept wondering why the wife didnt throw the games out.  she should have turned the closet into a room for the kids toys.  

but during the show the basement became a room for the kids.

what was the name of that desert. rehab.  i wondered who told the parents the kid was ok. how could someone just have their kid out un the desert. the heat must have been unbearable.

[Maharincess]

If my kids had ever spoken to me like that kid spoke to his parents,  I'd have dumped his ass in the desert myself. 

I don't understand the parents on this. If the kids are addicted to their phones or video games, take them away!  A 14 year old doesn't pay the electric bills nor does he have the ability to pay for his games and stuff himself so take them away!  Whiny ass parents who never take control and would rather complain than do something about it piss me off.  The girls parents even said it was easier to give her the phone back instead of parenting her and taking it away from her.  They said she has a fit if they take her phone, so, let her have a damn fit! 

My kids were punished by having their favorite things taken away.  If they did something they knew they shouldn't have done, their favorite things were taken away. With my daughter it was her stereo, I would take the wires to it and put them away until she behaved properly. With my son, it was his video games I would take.  They knew if they messed up, they wouldn't have their favorite things anymore.  These idiot parents should have taken the devices away from their bratty kids. 

Edited May 21, 2017 by Maharincess

[saber5055]

I could only watch parts of this episode since I think anyone "hooked" on video games is beyond me even caring about. And the desert from fall through spring is beautiful and quite lovely, perfect temperature! I'm guessing that camp wasn't in July.

[walnutqueen]

See, this is why I didn't procreate, and am now alone.  I won't tolerate that kind of bullshit, and CPS would be all over my ass for taking my discipline a step beyond removing devices from their grubby little clutches.  And Dateline would be all over my ass trying to get me to confess to dumping my loser gaming huzzbin's body in the desert.  ;-)

But, seriously, for just a moment - the brain scan stuff was really interesting to me, because I believe the addicted brain IS different, and for whatever reason, certain substances or activities engage our "pleasure/reward" neurons in an "abby-normal" way.  (TM  Young Frankenstein).

[saber5055]

Walnut reminded me of someone I used to work with. When she tried to discipline her daughter, the daughter would call Child Welfare Services and get mom into hot water. They believed the kid, not the parent. Back in my day (ha ha), my mom would spank me good and send me to my room if I misbehaved. Nowadays, kids rule. And yeah, that one boy was scary, especially given we now live in the shadow of Columbine. But that husband ... gah, I'd kick his ass out but quick. He'd starve and be wearing filthy clothes since I'd do nothing for him. However, I do know people addicted to gambling; they are also addicted to smoking, drugs, lying ... pretty much everything.

[walnutqueen]

5 hours ago, saber5055 said:

Walnut reminded me of someone I used to work with. When she tried to discipline her daughter, the daughter would call Child Welfare Services and get mom into hot water. They believed the kid, not the parent. Back in my day (ha ha), my mom would spank me good and send me to my room if I misbehaved. Nowadays, kids rule. And yeah, that one boy was scary, especially given we now live in the shadow of Columbine. But that husband ... gah, I'd kick his ass out but quick. He'd starve and be wearing filthy clothes since I'd do nothing for him. However, I do know people addicted to gambling; they are also addicted to smoking, drugs, lying ... pretty much everything.

I don't know why I am in favor of the wooden spoon spank, because I was the perfect child who NEVER was spanked.  But there MAY be a time & place for just a leetle corporal punishment ...  OK - I am a nicotine addicted childless MONSTER who thinks children and PEOPLE should behave in an appropriate manner (especially in public, like the checkout line at my local grocery store, where my patience is tempted on a regular basis).

[mamadrama]

On 4/4/2017 at 0:33 PM, JaggedLilPill said:

I've never watched a lot of Nancy Grace since she tends to bug. She comes across too smug for my liking.

 

I have a story for you all. You guys might appreciate it. 

We have a vacation home on a barrier island. We spend our summers on it. Took my 5-year-old daughter out for ice cream last July. It was late, around 10. Place was crowded so we took one of the little couches. Another family came in and we squeezed over, making room for them. Mother is in her beach wear. Wet hair pulled back, no makeup, sunburnt. They had two kids. The ice cream place has a video game that 2 players can use. My daughter ended up playing with the boy so I stuck around for awhile. His mother was very taken with my daughter. Kept picking at her, talking to her, laughing with her. We talked about the island and what we liked to do. Grandma was with them as well and she and I talked for a bit. You know, general vacation stuff. Honestly, the nicest family we'd encountered all summer. People on that island an go either way. I thoroughly enjoyed my time. Got ready to leave and, OF COURSE, my daughter spills what's left of her ice cream all over the floor. Before I can move, the mother is jumping up, grabbing napkins, and cleaning my DD's mess. 

I swear to God, my DD and I were all the way outside, in the car, before I realized that we'd just spent an hour hanging out with Nancy Grace, her kids, and her mother. Got back to the house and looked on Grace's FB page and, sure enough, she was posting vacay pictures of the island. 

I can take her or leave her on television but, in real life, she's about as nice and normal as can be and she LOVES kids. She played with every child that got close to her and we were both goo-goo eyed at all the babies that came in. 

Now, whenever my daughter sees Nancy screaming on 20/20 or Dateline she says, "Hey! That's the woman that cleaned up my ice cream. Why is she so mad?"

Edited May 24, 2017 by mamadrama

[Zahdii]

It's nice to hear that Nancy Grace is nice in real life.  Her TV persona is awful.

[LittleIggy]

On 5/21/2017 at 3:45 AM, Midnight Sun said:

How did "Gamer Dad" manage to have all those kids?  I would dump that sorry loser in a heartbeat.

Guess he occasionally let his wife play with his joystick! Why she would want to procreate with him, I have no idea.

[teebax]

Commenting on last Friday's episode, I am saddened that so few people understand the definition of rape. Just because she said he didn't rape her doesn't mean it wasn't rape.

And to have the entire town turn on you for having the audacity to report it? I can't even imagine.

[valdawn]

And then having everything picked apart like pictures, texts etc. the backwards thinking in these situations is astounding. Like no one wants to believe a horny teenage boy would take advantage of a situation like that, and then it's the girls fault for drinking or flirting or whatever. This episode hit close to home for me because as a teenager drunk at a party, I went to lay down in a bedroom when I could hardly walk or talk. One of the guys at the party came in and began having sex with me I told him no and I could hardly even move or speak I was so drunk. He did it anyway and I now see it as rape. 

She texted him "you didn't rape me" and people were pointing to that as proof he didn't but I don't think I would have said that at the time either plus if I would have, I'm sure I would've been vilified as she was. 

Edited June 6, 2017 by valdawn