20/20 - General Discussion

[Mannahatta]

Madding crowd: The pack live in low income housing in a four bedroom apartment in NY. What low income housing has four bedrooms?

 

Like many other places NYC has a severe shortage of low and middle income housing. That said, four bedroom apartments do exist to a limited degree in the public housing projects - which is where this family lived. Their rent would then be a set percentage of their income. If their income goes up so does their rent. Of course, if they were paying market rates their rent would be through the roof. The neighborhood they live in, the Lower East Side, has become very trendy and expensive.

[Ina123]

And what was the deal about using only one restroom when there were two?

[ari333]

And what was the deal about using only one restroom when there were two?

 

 Bc if the kids or wife used the other bathroom they could bang on the wall or scream and the neighbors would hear since the wall was adjacent to the neighbors.

 

Something is missing from this "story"

[walnutqueen]

Something is missing from this "story"

 

Like ... the truth?

[ari333]

Like ... the truth?

YES!

no police, no charges, (kidnapping and IDK what ) and no child services. Alrighty then. Their teeth looked pretty amazing for being locked up for 14 yrs or however long they say.

IDK if kidnapping is the right term for holding someone captive in a case like this. But you get my drift :-)

Edited April 4, 2016 by ari333

[stillhere1900]

Guys, they never once said that they never left the apt. They said they were "not allowed to go outside without the father". They did say their dad took them on many outings.  Maybe some of those places were to the dr & dentist. ?

[stillhere1900]

I live in Denver. I have been following along with the News. After it was revealed that the family had a history of suicides. I couldn't have convicted him.

 

What I don't agree with or understand why it's allowed is, the fact that he can be sued in a Civil Court even though he was acquitted of murder. The Court said that he is "NOT GUILTY" but a Civil Court can say that he is guilty  of causing her death ?

Edited April 4, 2016 by stillhere1900

[CaughtOnTape]

I don't think he did it.  I think her mother had an axe to grind cuz she hated the guy.  

 

As someone who has had suicide touch her family, it's never easy to accept that.  But I always kind of side eye the family that is so unwaveringly sure that their family member "could never have" committed suicide.  It seemed Ashley had a lot of stress in her life.  It's not a stretch to think she would have killed herself.  

[SPLAIN]

Interesting how the so-called father was quoted as saying he did not trust society or our government. Yet, he did not mind taking from the government when he needed social services because he refused to work.

Maybe the father stole some of the DVDs? Or maybe he knew someone who gave him bootlegs? Maybe the boys recorded the movies from their television?

The kids had access to a bathroom. I assume teeth brushing was the norm. I have assisted at a shelter where plenty of adults did not have access to dental care, but they did brush their teeth and had decent-looking teeth.

I thought there were two daughters mentioned?

[Lovecat]

What I don't agree with or understand why it's allowed is, the fact that he can be sued in a Civil Court even though he was acquitted of murder. The Court said that he is "NOT GUILTY" but a Civil Court can say that he is guilty  of causing her death ?

I'm sure OJ Simpson is puzzled by that one, too.

[NewDigs]

Here's the latest on Ethan Couch and his mom from our local news: http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/local/tarrant-county/2015/12/21/authorities-ask-for-public-help-in-ethan-couch-search/77718434/

He definitely gets his looks from her. Yikes.

 

NewDigs, the McConnell family settled in October: http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article38530914.html

I almost forgot about this little shit. At least his case is being moved to adult court but it looks like the only chance for anything approaching justice to happen will be if he breaks his probation.

"Couch had been serving a sentence of 10 years' probation for the deadly crash. And The Associated Press reports that now, "if he violates his probation during that time, he could get up to 10 years in prison for each of the four people killed in the accident."

The Dallas Morning News adds that Couch's lawyer did not contest Friday's ruling, saying "he felt that his client has been treated fairly up to this point."

Fingers crossed.

And mom's going to be charged.

"His mother was "charged with hindering apprehension of a criminal, a felony that carries two to 10 years in prison," the Dallas Morning News reported. "She posted bond but remains under house arrest at the home of another son in Fort Worth."

How many very special snowflakes did she have?

[partofme]

I live in Denver. I have been following along with the News. After it was revealed that the family had a history of suicides. I couldn't have convicted him.

 

What I don't agree with or understand why it's allowed is, the fact that he can be sued in a Civil Court even though he was acquitted of murder. The Court said that he is "NOT GUILTY" but a Civil Court can say that he is guilty  of causing her death ?

It's a different standard of guilt. Criminal is beyond a reasonable doubt. Civil is preponderance of the evidence which basically means 51% for guilty.

[junemeatcleaver]

It looks like they're featuring the Staudte case.  What a couple of depraved assholes.

[ari333]

Depraved assholes indeed. And how was that Rachel chick to know that she wasn't next?  The whole thing was a horror. I was shocked that they both confessed. I'd have been fine with the death penalty here. COLD. I guess that makes me cold too, but I feel for the victims and we're clear on who did it and who was in on it.

[arejay]

Thanks for the link, JMC. There is one line in the story that puzzles me:

"They ordered a special tasteless antifreeze from the internet"

Who in the Wide Wide World of Sports is the target market for that?

Edited April 17, 2016 by arejay

[Maharincess]

People with animals I would think. Animals are attracted to the taste of antifreeze.

[crazycatlady58]

Did they ever say what happened with the younger sister? The one that was poisoned was in a group home but I do not remember if they said where the other girl was.

[ari333]

Wow tasteless anti freeze so humans can kill  easier. Cant parents and pet lovers put the antifreeze where a child or pet cannot get it? Lock it up? I love animals  btw

[Maharincess]

I agree Ari. I have read stories though about cars leaking antifreeze and licking it off the ground.

I live in California so I have no need for antifreeze but if I did need it, I would buy the tastless, odorless version. I wouldn't kill anybody with it but better safe than sorry when it comes to my 4 legged kids.

[walnutqueen]

17 States (including California) already have legislation requiring a bittering agent additive for antifreeze.  In 2013, manufacturers agreed to add this agent to all antifreeze sold in the US.

 

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/21/making-antifreeze-less-deadly-for-pets-and-people/

 

https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/130215f.aspx

 

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/antifreeze-manufacturers-agree-add-bittering-agent-make-products-unpalatable-animals-and-humans

[ari333]

17 States (including California) already have legislation requiring a bittering agent additive for antifreeze.  In 2013, manufacturers agreed to add this agent to all antifreeze sold in the US.

 

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/21/making-antifreeze-less-deadly-for-pets-and-people/

 

https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/130215f.aspx

 

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/antifreeze-manufacturers-agree-add-bittering-agent-make-products-unpalatable-animals-and-humans

THIS ^^^^^

I agree Ari. I have read stories though about cars leaking antifreeze and licking it off the ground.

I live in California so I have no need for antifreeze but if I did need it, I would buy the tastless, odorless version. I wouldn't kill anybody with it but better safe than sorry when it comes to my 4 legged kids.

I see your point. But keep the pets off that area? IDK. I just think the whole no taste thing is dangerous for  humans;

and kids and pets can be protected and watched.. leashed (pets) ... gated.... IDK what. .  .

[Maharincess]

I have never had an issue with my pets being accidentally poisoned because I do keep them out of dangerous areas. I'm just saying that a lot of animals are poisoned by ingesting antifreeze.

[ari333]

And if something is added to it so that  it tastes horrific and bitter, then no innocent animal, humans included, will likely drink  it.

I have never had an issue with my pets being accidentally poisoned because I do keep them out of dangerous areas. I'm just saying that a lot of animals are poisoned by ingesting antifreeze.

Im  a super animal lover, so no arguments there.

And I agree that no animal (including human animals) should be  poisoned by antifreeze, It should taste horrific, bitter,  and vile. Not sweet and delicious.  or bland and undetectable. imo

[Maharincess]

What in the hell is our world coming to that they have to make sure antifreeze has a bad taste so nobody can be poisoned?!

Wow.

[ari333]

What in the hell is our world coming to that they have to make sure antifreeze has a bad taste so nobody can be poisoned?!

Wow.

 

 I agree with you ; what has the world  come to... Some precautions become necessary sadly imo

Edited April 19, 2016 by ari333

[BusyOctober]

OMG!!! Did anyone watch "Since the day I was born"? What the effin' Hell?  One abandoned baby is somewhat understandable for a scared and unready woman, but this lady is frickin' certifiable abandoning THREE babies.  No reason for her behavior.  Thank goodness each of those children were adopted and had loving families versus being in foster care.  I'm sure the birth mom feels guilty, but she had multiple opportunities to tell her first abandoned kid the truth once she was found.  I don't think I could be as forgiving as these 3 people. And how did she explain discarding 3 siblings to her 2 oldest sons? 

[Enigma X]

BusyOctober, I saw it and it was a very good episode. I wondered about the older children and read they now live out of state and could not participate. I sure hope Dean finds his father and that all their suspected fathers are DNA tested to prove they are who everyone thinks they are.

 

(Is anyone else not getting email updates?)

[raiderred1]

41 minutes ago, BusyOctober said:

OMG!!! Did anyone watch "Since the day I was born"? What the effin' Hell?  One abandoned baby is somewhat understandable for a scared and unready woman, but this lady is frickin' certifiable abandoning THREE babies.  No reason for her behavior.  Thank goodness each of those children were adopted and had loving families versus being in foster care.  I'm sure the birth mom feels guilty, but she had multiple opportunities to tell her first abandoned kid the truth once she was found.  I don't think I could be as forgiving as these 3 people. And how did she explain discarding 3 siblings to her 2 oldest sons? 

I feel the exact same way.  She sucks as a human being.  It sickened me to see her act all pitiful about her poor heart.  I wonder if the son really did jump on board with his sisters? I would have felt the way he did when they all met her.  I was also curious about the two sons also.  So live in other states or towns and couldn't be there for serious heart surgery?  What's wrong with this picture??? 

[UsernameFatigue]

When I saw the promo for this show I thought it was about a story I had just read in this past week's People magazine. Turns out it wasn't the same three siblings but an nearly identical story. In the People magazine story three sisters were abandoned by the same mother over a 17 year period, born when the mother was ages 20, 33 and 37. The first abandoned in an apt building and the other two at the same hospital. They found their mother who is 87 and suffering from dementia and oddly enough is married to the father of the two younger sisters who were abandoned. It is also thought that there might be son older than all three sisters.

I thought it was odd in this story that the two older sons were not a part of the story. Are they shocked that their mother gave away three younger siblings, or was she a lousy mother to them and they have no relationship with her? Amazing to me that she gave birth and then just went on with, in the first case calling authorities to pretend she found the baby, and in another case throwing a birthday party hours after giving birth. I guess it is something that at least she knew who the fathers were but still - three unwanted children abandoned. She is lucky they are so forgiving and the first daughter in particular seems very loving towards her.

Edited May 12, 2016 by UsernameFatigue

[Miss chi chi]

I kept thinking how inept the police and foster care officials were about trying to find the mother who abandoned the first baby.  I would think the first person they would suspect as the mother would be the person who found her.  I imagine she looked like a person who had just given birth to a baby and she kept visiting the baby in the hospital.  Didn't anyone who saw the article in the newspaper and knew the mother put it together?  How can a person hide three pregnancies.  I have never seen anyone who was 9 months pregnant and it wasn't obvious.  

[Willowsmom]

I found the interview with Joseph C Phillips last night very interesting....

[walnutqueen]

24 minutes ago, Willowsmom said:

I found the interview with Joseph C Phillips last night very interesting....

Yes, I don't remember hearing him speak on the Cosby topic before.  Quite an eye-opener.

[kat165]

As far as I know in order to receive a home schooling stipend/payment you need to follow specific state guidelines which probably vary from state to and give the students tests which need to be passed & submitted.

[Christina]

I may be preaching to the choir here, but if anyone has not yet given Las Vegas Law a chance, you should do so. I read something that said it wasn't getting great ratings, and I don't know why. The article said something about the people being polled thinking it was a re-enactment show, because there was a show named similar that was re-enactments with bad actors. 

It shows the actual behind-the-scenes discussions of the attorneys and the victims. It's on Investigation Discovery, and I'm going to put this in the Dateline and 48 Hours forums too, so please forgive the duplicate postings. 

[Enero]

Did anyone catch Robin Roberts interview with Bobby Brown? Nothing much new said in the interview. His kids from previous relationships seem well put together. 

He has a beautiful family with his new wife. However, I get the impression that she's more his manager than his wife. I'm sure he loves her but I don't think that he's IN LOVE with her. I don't think the realationship is toxic though. It didn't seem like there was any codependency going on. She seems to have little patience for BS and will limit the enabling. 

I felt sad for him when he was talking about BK. He admitted that he and Whitney failed her which is enough for me. Considering all he's been through I'm sure he'll continue to struggle with sobriety. I hope he can keep it together, not just for himself but for his children. 

[Jaded]

Just now, Enero said:

I felt sad for him when he was talking about BK. He admitted that he and Whitney failed her which is enough for me. Considering all he's been through I'm sure he'll continue to struggle with sobriety. I hope he can keep it together, not just for himself but for his children. 

I admit to tearing up a bit when he was crying and talking about how he wished he could get those two days back.

[Talky Tina]

I teared up as well.  I liked his wife, she seems really good for him.  I don't know why but I've always had a soft spot for Bobby.  He's definitely had his struggles but I think he has a big heart and wants to do the right thing. 

When he talked about having those two days back my heart just broke for him. 

[topanga]

9 hours ago, Enero said:

Did anyone catch Robin Roberts interview with Bobby Brown? Nothing much new said in the interview. His kids from previous relationships seem well put together. 

He has a beautiful family with his new wife. However, I get the impression that she's more his manager than his wife. I'm sure he loves her but I don't think that he's IN LOVE with her. I don't think the realationship is toxic though. It didn't seem like there was any codependency going on. She seems to have little patience for BS and will limit the enabling. 

I felt sad for him when he was talking about BK. He admitted that he and Whitney failed her which is enough for me. Considering all he's been through I'm sure he'll continue to struggle with sobriety. I hope he can keep it together, not just for himself but for his children. 

I liked the interview. For the most part,  Bobby was sincere and forthcoming about his own shortcomings. He talked fairly openly about his and Whitney's heavy drug use, but he never blamed her for it or implied that he was a great parent through it all--as Whitney did during her interview with Oprah. And he confirmed what others have said--that Whitney used drugs long before she and Bobby ever got together. 

I'd forgotten how much "Being Bobby Brown" hurt Whitney's image. Those clips were cringe-worthy.

[Talky Tina]

I'm terrible but those clips made me want to watch Being Bobby Brown again. 

[topanga]

13 hours ago, Talky Tina said:

I'm terrible but those clips made me want to watch Being Bobby Brown again. 

*slowly raises hand and hangs head in shame*  -- Me too.

[CaughtOnTape]

On 6/7/2016 at 9:39 PM, Jaded said:

I admit to tearing up a bit when he was crying and talking about how he wished he could get those two days back.

If anyone has any doubt that he loved his little girl, they need to just watch that clip.  My heart absolutely broke.  He feels so much guilt.  I feel terribly for him.

And damn...he was good lookin' back in the day.  I forgot what a beautiful specimen he was until they showed the clip of the My Prerogative video.

[Court]

Anyone want to discuss rehab mogul?

 

Or the In an Instant episode? I had a hard time watching it. The commercials were a needed break from the tragedy. 

Edited June 19, 2016 by Court

[Showthyme]

It seems like anyone who can meet the basic zoning laws can open a sober living house. I don't think that there is any real vetting of the people who own or run these houses. It seems like a lucrative business. Collect higher than normal rent and take a chance that someone comes up hot on a urine test and then tell them to leave. 

The rehab mogul was clearly taking advantage of these women who were in a very vulnerable state. He seemed to enjoy the power that he had over these women who were in his rehab center. He sounds like someone who lies constantly. I hope that he serves serious jail time and is sued for every cent that he has. 

Where are the counselors who were employed by the rehab center? They did a terrible disservice to these women by not speaking up. 

[Court]

I laughed when the interviewer was all "he's either a spectacular liar or blah blah..

 

It was so clear to me he was lying by his body language alone. He stammered, stuttered, and kept fidgeting. He was caught in lies too!

[stillhere1900]

No kidding!!!!   he was lying everytime he opened his mouth. I live in Denver, so I know this story.

He actually had the gall to say that wasn't him in that motel doing meth with those women from his rehab center, and had to be taken by ambulance to the ER. According to Chris Bathum "the rehab mogul"  it was "someone who had stolen his identity"

[imjagain]

I had started to watch the Lauren spherer episode  but had to run out to do something, I'll finish it some time today. I just had to comment that my jaw dropped that another student especially a female student, would say "we should just move on,  it's old news." 

Holy hell! I know it has been 5 yrs since t Lauren went missing.  But what the hell was that?

Sorry,  I was just shocked by that. 

[ElleBee]

1 hour ago, imjagain said:

I had started to watch the Lauren spherer episode  but had to run out to do something, I'll finish it some time today. I just had to comment that my jaw dropped that another student especially a female student, would say "we should just move on,  it's old news." 

Holy hell! I know it has been 5 yrs since t Lauren went missing.  But what the hell was that?

Sorry,  I was just shocked by that. 

Yeah, I was hoping the parents didn't see that part (though I'm sure they did) because it just came off as so heartless. A little hard to "move on" when your kid is missing, likely dead, and the circumstances are a huge cautionary tale for all students. 

I'm not totally familiar with the details of the case, but it sure seems like her circle of male "friends" know more than they're letting on. Between her being in such bad shape from drugs/alcohol, having a heart condition, and hitting her head hard (did a face plant on the pavement without even putting her hands out to break the fall), I wonder whether she died "naturally" and they panicked, covered it up, and now it's too late to go back and change their story. She could also have been raped and one, or several, decided that they had to get rid of her body to hide the evidence.

Unless there are other factors involved, I do think it's odd that the police haven't released the multitude of surveillance videos they apparently have on file. If the parents are okay with it, what's the downside? In a similar case with Hannah Graham (hope I'm remembering her name correctly), putting the surveillance video out was what cracked the case.

[Court]

My line of thinking was similar to Ellebee's. Those boys know what happened. 

That girls shocked me too. It was just weird

[Wings]

On 6/19/2016 at 9:02 PM, Showthyme said:

It seems like anyone who can meet the basic zoning laws can open a sober living house. I don't think that there is any real vetting of the people who own or run these houses. It seems like a lucrative business. Collect higher than normal rent and take a chance that someone comes up hot on a urine test and then tell them to leave. 

The rehab mogul was clearly taking advantage of these women who were in a very vulnerable state. He seemed to enjoy the power that he had over these women who were in his rehab center. He sounds like someone who lies constantly. I hope that he serves serious jail time and is sued for every cent that he has. 

Where are the counselors who were employed by the rehab center? They did a terrible disservice to these women by not speaking up. 

 It may differ from state to state but in FL, you offer a safe house, collect the rent and there is no testing. Many   use when in them.  It is a guest police operation.  If other guests report someone, they are evicted. Rarely does the owner of the house do the policing, they want the rent.  The room rental is usually below the average room rent in the area. 

Edited June 25, 2016 by wings707

[BuckeyeLou]

53 minutes ago, ElleBee said:

Yeah, I was hoping the parents didn't see that part (though I'm sure they did) because it just came off as so heartless. A little hard to "move on" when your kid is missing, likely dead, and the circumstances are a huge cautionary tale for all students. 

I'm not totally familiar with the details of the case, but it sure seems like her circle of male "friends" know more than they're letting on. Between her being in such bad shape from drugs/alcohol, having a heart condition, and hitting her head hard (did a face plant on the pavement without even putting her hands out to break the fall), I wonder whether she died "naturally" and they panicked, covered it up, and now it's too late to go back and change their story. She could also have been raped and one, or several, decided that they had to get rid of her body to hide the evidence.

Unless there are other factors involved, I do think it's odd that the police haven't released the multitude of surveillance videos they apparently have on file. If the parents are okay with it, what's the downside? In a similar case with Hannah Graham (hope I'm remembering her name correctly), putting the surveillance video out was what cracked the case.

I live in Indiana, and cant believe someone would say "its old news, move on"...sheesh, Lauren's parents need to Know what happened!  And I agree that those boys who were with her know more than they are letting on.