S04.E08: The Mountain And The Viper 2014.06.01

[Meredith Quill]

Episode Synopsis:

Unexpected visitors arrive in Mole's Town. Littlefinger's motives are questioned. Ramsay tries to prove himself to his father. Tyrion's fate is decided.

 

Reminder: There is open air book talk here. If you are just watching the TV show and you don't want to stumble into a potential spoiler you should leave now. Book Talk assumes you have read all the books to date. Any information from unpublished books, such as preview chapters should be in spoiler tags.

[Brn2bwild]

Wow, his death really was as gross as it was in the book (if not more so).  I don't know why I expect differently anymore.

 

In other news, wow, what a scene with Sansa.  I wonder what they'll do with her character now that Bronze Yohn and company know who she really is.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Brn2bwild

[mad_typist]

That was.... graphic. Even though I knew it was coming, Oberyn's death was more upsetting than I anticipated. So sad.

Loved the weird story Tryion told about the beetles.

[Avaleigh]

"[some] die squatting over their chamber pots." Thank you for that bit of foreshadowing Littlefinger.

Love what they're doing with Sansa.

I'm already devastated at the upcoming loss of Jaime and Tyrion.

Eta:

I can't with Oberyn's death right now. I looked away.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Izzyboy]

Wow, Oberyn's death scene lived up to the book in my opinion.  Pedro Pascal was so good in that role.  Its a shame it had to end so quickly, but he brought that character to life in a way that few else in this cast have with their characters.  And poor Ellaria Sand...having to see him go like that.

 

I'm wondering where they're taking the Grey Worm/Missandei relationship.  It says a lot when I'm more interested in that relationship than anything Dany is doing...

 

I'm also wondering if next week's episode will only be at the Wall a la the "Blackwater" episode where it stayed at Kings Landing the whole time...

 

Love what they're doing with Sansa.

 

I'm so much more interested in Show!Sansa than I am Book!Sansa. 

Edited June 2, 2014 by Izzyboy

[MarquisDeCarabas]

Given the whole Inigo Montoya-ness of the whole confess bit,  please tell me I wasn't the only one who had:

 

 

You must be that little Spanish brat I taught a lesson to all those years ago. It’s simply incredible. Have you been chasing me your whole life only to fail now? I think that’s the worst thing I ever heard. How marvelous.

Running through my head after.

 

 

Love what they're doing with Sansa.

And deliberately making herself look as much like her mother as possible was such an awesome touch. 

 

She's definitely going places.  I'm trying to think how much more of her plot is left from the books?  At this rate we may get Winds of Winter spoilers in her plotline next season.

Edited June 2, 2014 by MarquisDeCarabas

[scout1207]

Damn, I'll miss you Oberyn. Wonder if we'll still have The Creature-Mountain from Dr. Franken-Maester.

 

Sansa is growing with power.

[mad_typist]

"[some] die squatting over their chamber pots." Thank you for that bit of foreshadowing Littlefinger.

Love what they're doing with Sansa.

Agreed. Book Sansa is infuriatingly passive, so I'm glad the show is changing that. I have my doubts that book Sansa will ever be capable of learning how to play the Game of Thrones, but show Sansa is showing some impressive mettle. Also, on a more shallow note, girlfriend was *rockin* that dress at the end.

[jjjmoss]

Hopefully not, as Jon Snow, Samwell, and Ygritte are all very dull characters and are played by unimpressive actors.

[mac123x]

Yeah, I had to cover my eyes at that last scene.  That was pretty gross.  Awesome fight choreography up until that point.

 

Arya burst out laughing at the "well shit, another dead relative" scene was hilarious. 

 

I really liked that Sansa came up with her story on her own rather than having Petyr coach her to say it.  She's starting to become a player in the game instead of a pawn, that's great.  Sophie Turner was outstanding.

 

I want Ygritte to die a horrible painful agonizing and slow death.  Oh, sure, she was nice enough not to slaughter Gilly and Sam Jr., but that really doesn't make up for the spear-through-the-chest that happened 10 seconds earlier.  I'm not sure I appreciate the changes they've made to the wildlings for the show;  I'm really not sure how Lord Commander Snow will be able to forge any kind of alliance with them against their common enemy, considering they're behaving about as deplorably as the Ironborn and the Boltons.

 

Theon and company, I don't care.  The only thing I liked about that was it gave them an excuse to include Moat Cailin in the opening title sequence.

[Hanahope]

That Oberyn/Mountain fight was great.  See, Arya, there is a use for water dancing.  You just have to finish it and not poke and prod for a confession.

 

Loved Arya bursting out laughing hearing that Lysa had died.  Yup, she has no family, that's why she goes to Braavos.  I'm interested though in why the message wouldn't get passed on to Robin at least and thus Petyr hearing about Arya.  I wouldn't expect he'd tell Sansa yet.

 

And is Sansa growing up fast.  I liked how they changed the Lysa suicide story.  Just enough truth to make it totally believable when Sansa lied.  She knows that if she backs Petyr (for now at least), he'll keep her alive, which in Westeros is already staying ahead of the  curve.  And they really dressed Sansa up to resemble Cat, exactly what Sansa knows Petyr wants.

 

What was that beetle story about?  I don't remember that in the book, but it was boring enough that if it was, I probably glanced over it there too.

 

So now I guess we get a Sam/Gilley reunion?  Or did Gilley join the wildlings.  Did Ygritte know/recognize Gilley was a wildling or did she just decide not to kill a mother and baby?

[benteen]

Wow.  Not a lot on TV disturbs me that that last scene sure as hell did.  I was wondering how they would pull that off...mission accomplished!

 

Another great episode.  A little slow on some parts in the beginning and Tyrion's beetle conversation just wouldn't end.  But you had some really impressive scenes and some terrific acting.

 

Sophie Turner was amazing.  Her confessing she was Sansa Stark legitimately surprised me and was a great move on her part.  Gave her character a lot of agency.  I'm very curious where things will go from here with that storyline.

 

Speaking of unexpected, Arya's laughter which was hilarious.

 

Fantastic work by Alfie Allen as always and Moat Cailin's design was very cool.  Liked the twisted Roose and Ramsey scene and they seemed to be playing an altered, twisted version of the King of the North score.

 

Add Iain Glen to the list of standout performances.  I'm surprised we never got Jorah kissing Dany on this show but I thought the betrayal was very well-handled.

 

Fantastic trial by combat and I'm going to miss Pedro Pascal.

Edited June 2, 2014 by benteen

[screamin]

Okay...so my unease at the way the showrunners are adapting the book are proceeding apace. The Oberyn/Mountain fight at the end was everything I hoped for...but the rest? Not so much. ANOTHER near-miss meeting between Starks when Arya and the Hound make it all the way to the Bloody Gates? Filler. However sweet  it is, will it make any fucking difference in the plot whether or not Missandei ever finds out if Grey Worm still has his cock? Filler - at least ten minutes' worth. That endless story about the beetles? Filler.

 

And I don't like the way they've villainized Sansa by letting her save LF. It seems to be giving away - years in advance - the book spoiler that Sansa will turn to the Drak Side. Which for me is a bit of a letdown, because GRRM has withheld Sansa's story for ten years and I was hoping for something better than that.

Edited June 2, 2014 by screamin

[kechara]

It was like Inigo Montoya meets Death of Quint in Jaws.

[elzin]

I can't stop crying.  Being a BookWalker doesn't make things easier.

[HeySandyStrange]

I was very surprised during Sansa's confession scene. Mouth on the floor surprised. Talk about a divergence from the books.  I think I can get to like this more calculating, wary Sansa.  Her convo with Pervy Uncle Baelish on why she helped him was awesome, imo.  THAT is the girl I wish we saw more of in the books.

 

They had me going for a second with Oberyn.  I almost had an inkling of a hope that he would get out alive.  Some intense acting there.  I was also impressed by Ellaria's reactions, mostly by that proud smile she gave Oberyn right before he bit it.  

 

 

[Skeeter22]

I was just pleased Sansa got a new dress.

[benteen]

Okay...so my unease at the way the showrunners are adapting the book are proceeding apace. The Oberyn/Mountain fight at the end was everything I hoped for...but the rest? Not so much. ANOTHER near-miss meeting between Starks when Arya and the Hound make it all the way to the Bloody Gates? Filler. However sweet  it is, will it make any fucking difference in the plot whether or not Missandei ever finds out if Grey Worm still has his cock? Filler - at least ten minutes' worth. That endless story about the beetles? Filler.

 

And I don't like the way they've villainized Sansa by letting her save LF. It seems to be giving away - years in advance - the book spoiler that Sansa will turn to the Drak Side. Which for me is a bit of a letdown, because GRRM has withheld Sansa's story for ten years and I was hoping for something better than that.

 

It doesn't bother me too much by GRRM had many years to get Sansa to this point and hasn't.

Edited June 2, 2014 by benteen

[magdalene]

Bye-bye Oberyn, his death was even more awful than I thought it was going to be. I am really glad I read the books because I don't think I could take the TV show unspoiled.

 

And even with being spoiled I get surprised by something almost every episode. I find player Sansa so much more interesting than the books version.

[SeanC]

The writers of the show are really fond of zero-to-sixty character shifts.  Sansa's is one of the more dramatic ones even by their standards (complete with vampy wardrobe change).  I like seeing the character portrayed as competent, but they really could have stood to ease into this.

 

One thing I will say (I noted this before somewhere else), but Sophie Turner is one of the only actors on this show (Conleth Hill, perhaps, being the other, though with Varys' murky motivations it's hard to tell) who plays her character acting as if she possesses all of the acting skills of Sophie Turner, without any actorly cues to convey that she's being dishonest (Natalie Dormer's Margaery, for instance, is so obviously dissembling whenever she's "playing the game" that it's a wonder anyone believes her; and I love Dormer, don't get me wrong; Aiden Gillen is another obvious example).

 

I was impressed that they made Oberyn's death as gruesome as they did.  Also, Indira Varma's reaction to his death was everything I was expecting from Cersei's reaction to the death of Joffrey; that's the only time Lena has really underwhelmed me).

[Haldebrandt]

I've yet to see the episode, but just saw a couple of stills of Oberyn's manner of death.  Holy fuck.  I'm pretty sure I can enjoy the rest of my life without seeing the actual scene (oh who am i kidding).

 

I don't recall Elia being "split in two" in the books.  So since that's how the show described her death, I had assumed it was because that was how Oberyn was gonna go.  I guess not...

[Avaleigh]

Apart from the Sansa/Littlefinger scenes, I felt like I was itching to get back to KL.

I too was surprised to see that Sansa came up with the story on her own. I was certain that he'd already coached her.

Is there a point to aging Robert/Robin Arryn?

[Lady S.]

 

She's definitely going places.  I'm trying to think how much more of her plot is left from the books?  At this rate we may get Winds of Winter spoilers in her plotline next season.

She only has three AFFC chapters and I think this was the second one. Definitely getting Winds next season.

[Izzyboy]

It doesn't bothered me too much by GRRM had many years to get Sansa to this point and hasn't.

 

That's kinda of how I feel. If it makes for a better character than I don't mind the show speeding things up a little as far as Sansa's concerned.  I couldn't bear to read through most of her chapters but as far as the show goes I love seeing more of her character now.

[Independent George]

Honestly, the episode kind of left me flat. Overall, it felt like they were just killing time for the shock factor of Oberyn's death, rather than trying to craft an interesting episode in its own right. 

 

Things I liked:

1. Sansa at the Vale. I'm uncertain about the accelerated timeline, but Sansa's 'confession' was the best part of the episode.

2. Arya bursting into laughter at the gates when informed of Lyssa's death.

3. Theon trying (and failing) to hold it together during the surrender.

 

Things I didn't like:

1. Gratuitous blood and gore - the flayed man, and Oberyn's head squish. It felt like a bad slasher flick. Beyond a certain point, it stops being 'gritty' and just becomes shock for shock's sake, and blunts the impact. Very reminiscent of Gus' death on Breaking Bad - it's so over-the-top as to descend into self-parody. 

2. Tyrion's monologue about the beetles. That was... kind of pointless and rambling, especially when compared to Oberyn's monologue about his mother and Joanna Lannister from the books. It felt like that first pretentious creative writing exercise you wrote in college to show off how smart you were, and which you've been trying to forget about ever since. 

3. Mole's Town. A bunch of people we have no emotional connection to getting slaughtered by people we've come to despise. 

4. The fight sequence. Think back to the great duels we've had - Jaime vs. Ned, Bronn vs Ser Vardis, Sandor vs. Beric. They felt raw - in each case, it was about two men desperate to stay alive. This was pure WWE - way over-choreographed and kind of silly. That flashy aerial stuff has its place in wire-fu films, but not GOT. 

Edited June 2, 2014 by Independent George

[Grammaeryn]

Apart from the Sansa/Littlefinger scenes, I felt like I was itching to get back to KL.

 

Ugh, I know! Each scene change, I perked up with, "Duel?" The last 10 friggen minutes of the episode. I liked the beetle story because I really felt like Jaime and Tyrion are siblings with that shared memory. So are we thinking finale will be patricide and unCat? Or split up the shocks?

[paigow]

The Boltons definitely had a Lion King vibe going.  "Look around Simba, everything the sun touches belongs to us".

[benteen]

I guess Gregor isn't going to die from the poisoning.

[LilWharveyGal]

 

I was just pleased Sansa got a new dress.

 

On my TV at least it looked like something from the Melisandre Funeral Collection.

[MarquisDeCarabas]

I have to think Gregor's still 'dead.'  but we'll see.

 

The HBO inside the episode, has them specifically saying the Mountain was poisoned.

Edited June 2, 2014 by MarquisDeCarabas

[benteen]

I think he's still dead too but I don't know if we'll get the poisoning angle.

 

Someone wondered if people started posting reaction videos to Oberyn's death.  I can only imagine what those will be like.

[SeanC]

I'm trying to think how much more of her plot is left from the books?

This episode basically covered her first two chapters, and rendered the rest probably irrelevant.

[Skywarpgold]

I guess Gregor isn't going to die from the poisoning.

  

I think he's still dead too but I don't know if we'll get the poisoning angle.

 

Someone wondered if people started posting reaction videos to Oberyn's death.  I can only imagine what those will be like.

I noticed Oberyn's squire was "washing" his spear blades before handing them to him. They'll probably turn out to have been soaked with poison of some sort.

[Ms. Poly Theist]

Wow, that was...pretty much exactly like it went down in the book. Bravo (this time), Weis & Beniof! And farewell, pretty, pretty Oberyn! One thing I'll miss happening like it did in the book is coming up pretty soon: when Tyrion says to Jaime of Cersei, "she's been fucking Lancel, and Osmund Kettleblack, and probably Moon Boy for all I know." No Kettleblacks, no Moon Boy. I hope they can come up with something just as powerful, something that will haunt Jaime like the quote from the book haunted him.

 

Sansa's dress looked like something from the Elvira of Westeros collection. Or maybe it was "sexy Lady of the Vale" from the Eyrie Halloween costume shop.

[voyeur]

RIP TWOP -

RIP Oberyn

sigh

I chuckled at this double entendre (not exact):

Oberyn: All men are the same size when on their backs.

Tyrion: thank the Gods.

Can someone please tell me how Tyrion gets out of his death sentence in the books?

[Minneapple]

I was just pleased Sansa got a new dress.

My thought was that it was a Maleficent shoutout. You know, to go along with the Lion King shoutout. Or she was a gothic vampire.

But...I guess that means they're skipping all the Alayne Stone stuff. And they're getting into Winds of Winter material for Sansa next season. Which makes me kind of excited but kind of disappointed at the same time. It's like being reverse-spoilered.

 

Anyway, Oberyn's death was pretty traumatic and REALLY GROSS. He's one of those characters who I was meh on in the books but loved on the show thanks to the actor. Sniff, so long, Viper.

[WatchrTina]

 

On my TV at least it looked like something from the Melisandre Funeral Collection.

Someone on the "no book talk" board pointed out that it looked like a mockingbird dress which makes a lot of creepy sense.  

 

So I loved the changes vs. the book -- Sansa taking charge of her own destiny -- Arya getting all the way to the bloody gate and then breaking down in hysterical laughter at yet another dead relative.  And I'm sorry Oberyn's gory death was so faithful to the book (I had to look away.)  Could have done without the whole speech about idiot cousins crushing beetles though I presume that was a commentary on the capaciousness of the gods.  I was a bit confused about Ser Jorah's pardon turning up.  I guess there was a copy in the official archive in Kings' Landing and Tywin sent it?  But he had whats-is-name Tyrell bring him pen and paper so I assumed he would be writing to Danerys to spill the beans.  Did he just forge a copy of the pardon and affix the Baratheon seal? 

 

Can I just say I love Dolorous Edd?  Both in the book and on the screen, he's a great character.

Edited June 2, 2014 by WatchrTina

[jjjmoss]

I think the change may have rendered even some of what will be in The Winds of Winter irrelevant.

 

I hope they *still* have the scene when Sansa and Sweetrobyn go down in a bucket because it's rendered so well by GRRM.

Will they even do Harry the Heir, or is Littlefinger genuine when he says he wants the Vale to follow Robin? If the latter, that pretty means that we really have arrived at The Winds of Winter for Sansa.

[MarySNJ]

I'm really not sure how Lord Commander Snow will be able to forge any kind of alliance with them against their common enemy, considering they're behaving about as deplorably as the Ironborn and the Boltons.

 

The Thenns are acting as deplorably as the Mountain and his men - except they eat what they kill. I'm really hoping that the small band of really hideous Thenns will be the main casualties of the fighting. Mance is at least reasonable and has a selfless goal in trying to get his people through the Wall.

 

I guess Gregor isn't going to die from the poisoning.

Oberyn got a couple of good cuts in there and one spear thrust through the gut. Assuming they keep the poison aspect from the books, that should be enough to cause the Mountain's agonizing death... if there's a god. Or seven.

[ihartcoffee]

He gets let out by someone you wouldn't expect, a particular spider.

RIP TWOP -

RIP Oberyn

sigh

I chuckled at this double entendre (not exact):

Oberyn: All men are the same size when on their backs.

Tyrion: thank the Gods.

Can someone please tell me how Tyrion gets out of his death sentence in the books?

[ebevan91]

LOL, shimpy is mad as FUCK right now.

[magdalene]

 

LOL, shimpy is mad as FUCK right now

Yes, cursing like a sailor on shore leave, poor thing.

 

 

The evil Hobbit seemed almost touched when he got Daddy's approval. What a wholesome family moment that was.

Edited June 2, 2014 by magdalene

[purplemouth]

I'm not sure any line on this show has made me happier than hearing Baelish say "some men die sitting on their chamber pots".

 

I can take a lot of gore, but even I had to cover my eyes for Oberon's ending. Brutal. I'm going to miss Tyrion/Jamie scenes, they're always a delight.

[Scarlett45]

I'm not sure any line on this show has made me happier than hearing Baelish say "some men die sitting on their chamber pots".

I can take a lot of gore, but even I had to cover my eyes for Oberon's ending. Brutal. I'm going to miss Tyrion/Jamie scenes, they're always a delight.

Here here! An excellent bit of foreshadowing there.

Ugh so sad. The fight scene was choregraphed beautifully, but knowing what was coming at the end I just couldn't look.

[jellysalmon]

Ugh. I feel ill. Violence against teeth/eyes really bugs me, I definitely had to look away during that final sequence. Still, it was well done. I imagine show watchers will be just as devastated as I was. I'll miss you Oberyn. 

[BabyMo]

I forgot about the way Oberynn died. I think the Mountain is probably still going to die. Even if the spears were not poisoned, the Mountain took a spear to the gut, and maesters can only do so much.

Sansa's dress looked very avian.

Nice foreshadowing also with the Hound and his "flea bite". Poor Arya. You can't help but laugh at the absurdity of traipsing all around the country and every opportunity falls through bc the person the Hound was going to ask for ransom money turns up dead.

In past seasons, Something Big happens in episode 9. Do you think that will be the case, or do you think they will save the escape for the finale?

[MrWhyt]

 

Something Big happens in episode 9. Do you think that will be the case, or do you think they will save the escape for the finale?

I don't know about the escape but the wildling attack on the wall is still to come.

[jjjmoss]

Well the Big Thing for Blackwater was King's Landing being saved by Tywin, so the Big Thing here could be The Wall being saved by Stannis.

 

Other possibilities for that SL: (likely) Ygritte dying. Maybe making Jon Lord Commander. Maaaybe killing Janos Slynt.

[hacman00]

 

 

Sansa's dress looked like something from the Elvira of Westeros collection. Or maybe it was "sexy Lady of the Vale" from the Eyrie Halloween costume shop.

 

I think she was sewing the dress in her chamber.

[Mya Stone]

I had somehow blocked out exactly the manner of Oberyn's death...and now sad Mya is sad. So very sad. 

Too much pretty to be reduced to liquid. :( 


I totally appreciate having Sansa admit her true self. The book storyline dragged. I'm pretty sure George himself would admit it dragged. This will be intriguing. I'm still under the impression that the 3 lords (and lady) declarant of the Vale will keep Sansa's secret, yet she will still masquerade as Alayne. (Hence the dark hair and mockingjay I mean mockingbird inspired dress.)