S05.E05: All Doll'd Up

[phoenics]

12 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

 the reason I have always been so critical of the Nora and Iris conflict is because of the fact that they already had Francine the black woman who abandoned her family and her child because of a drug addiction. Now I know I'm going to get all this "everybody else has dysfunctional relationships," but they have not been any families that are fractured or rife with drug or alcohol abuse from a minority group that is traditionally portrayed in media books magazines movies television shows Etc of not having whole and Loving families 

Barry's  dad was a brilliant scientist that was in jail unfairly, his mom was killed. Caitlin's parents are both supposedly well-respected Highly Educated people in their field. Don't know about Cisco don't care, but the black parent is drug-addicted and left their child making the other one a liar.

I just feel that it was important to either not have that storyline or to resolve it a lot more quickly than they have. Until the season they haven't even shown Iris interacting with any other minorities. She barely even interacts with Cecile.

I really wonder if part of that was due to AJK - who is no longer here.  With him gone, I think CP has been able to voice concerns more and be heard, so we are finally seeing improvements.  I wish they'd never done the drug story with Francine - in a world where the writers are pretending that race doesn't exist, it was a cheap, lazy and trifling storyline.  They could have been just as creative as they are now being with Caitlin's back story - bending over backwards to give Iris something that made sense without pulling out tired racist tropes.  I feel like these newer writers and showrunners are trying to have cohesion and consistently in the story which is why they brought up Francine again.  Notice they brought her out but didn't mention the drugs part.  Just the abandonment.

For me, the positives now are seeing Iris get a rich point of view (it only took them 5 years) and seeing Barry be fully supportive - in a supporting role for once.  I was also gratified to see the imbalance in the storytelling being toned down - Iris was given a PoV and Nora was told her actions were over the line.  I still think the other episode was bait (especially given Cecile's behavior this week) and that Cecile was used to prop up DP/Cait hate bait for Iris, but at least they've reset a bit better this week with more sane storytelling.

I do think we need to see a LOT more of Iris/Cecile - Cecile is literally her stepmother now - they need to bond too.

[ruby24]

Well, Cecile's not literally her stepmother yet, unless her and Joe got married offscreen. 

[catrice2]

Oh yes and I forgot cecile's college-educated daughter who was either stripping or working in the gentlemen's club

[shantown]

20 hours ago, miasth said:

Iris jumped off a building to save Barry; no hesitation. I did not think I could become a bigger fan of her character, but Iris West-Allen is awesome.

Not just jumped, but straight up leaping swan-dived off! Go Iris!

 

19 hours ago, bettername2come said:

All right, show, are we supposed to be making Cisco cry and talk about being murdered by Thawne in the alternate timeline

Admittedly I binged the first few seasons very quickly so maybe I'm mis-remembering how the whole Flashpoint thing works, but wasn't that a different Cisco who was killed by Thawne? Isn't this a different Cisco post-Flashpoint? That whole story confused me so much (and still does)

 

13 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

You have to remember that Nora has been staying there for 2 weeks now, all that time saying how awful Iris was, while at the same time sitting around all day on the couch, not helping out one bit. I think Joe was supposed to give the speech, but they let Cecile do it.

I think it was okay for Cecile to do. If I had someone sitting on my couch for two weeks whining and bashing our family members I'd be ready to smack them, so I thought Cecile did a good job trying to change the perspective. As others have mentioned, I do hope we get to see her and Iris bond a bit more.

 

9 hours ago, Pepper the Cat said:

How did Rag Doll know that Barry was the Flash?

Yeah, this confused me too - he saw the Flash at the scene of the building bombing, and he saw Barry asking his mom questions - but how did he know those were the same person??

[bettername2come]

16 minutes ago, shantown said:

Admittedly I binged the first few seasons very quickly so maybe I'm mis-remembering how the whole Flashpoint thing works, but wasn't that a different Cisco who was killed by Thawne? Isn't this a different Cisco post-Flashpoint? That whole story confused me so much (and still does)

Cisco got his powers when he first remembered that Thawne had killed him the first time Barry reset time. Time had only been changed by like a day, so only the death part wasn't his Cisco. He experienced it in first person instead of observing like his other visions. Flashpoint is a whole other issue.

[Quark]

I am loving the focus on Iris this season. She is ever so glorious.

Also her and Barry are adorable.

[Trini]

1 hour ago, shantown said:

Admittedly I binged the first few seasons very quickly so maybe I'm mis-remembering how the whole Flashpoint thing works, but wasn't that a different Cisco who was killed by Thawne? Isn't this a different Cisco post-Flashpoint? That whole story confused me so much (and still does)

It was a different Cisco... kinda. However, he can 'vibe' different timelines, so he kind of experienced getting murdered even though he didn't.
 

1 hour ago, shantown said:

Yeah, this confused me too - he saw the Flash at the scene of the building bombing, and he saw Barry asking his mom questions - but how did he know those were the same person??

I don't think Rag Doll knew.

[Trini]

More BTS photos:

[CTrent29]

Quote

Barry's  dad was a brilliant scientist that was in jail unfairly, his mom was killed. Caitlin's parents are both supposedly well-respected Highly Educated people in their field. Don't know about Cisco don't care, but the black parent is drug-addicted and left their child making the other one a liar.

 

Francine West's story arc does not seem similar to Iris and Nora's conflict.  Certainly not to me.  Why would Iris compare herself to her mother, considering that she doesn't really have any idea why she had Nora's powers suppressed in the first place?  Come to think of it, I suspect that Nora doesn't really know.  What if the circumstances that led Iris to have Nora's powers suppressed are still in play, because Iris, Barry and everyone else were too busy paying attention to Nora's outbursts?  What if Iris had a very good reason to suppress Nora's powers?  And why hasn't anyone considered this?

[catrice2]

8 minutes ago, CTrent29 said:

 

Francine West's story arc does not seem similar to Iris and Nora's conflict.  Certainly not to me.  Why would Iris compare herself to her mother, considering that she doesn't really have any idea why she had Nora's powers suppressed in the first place?  Come to think of it, I suspect that Nora doesn't really know.  What if the circumstances that led Iris to have Nora's powers suppressed are still in play, because Iris, Barry and everyone else were too busy paying attention to Nora's outbursts?  What if Iris had a very good reason to suppress Nora's powers?  And why hasn't anyone considered this?

 no they are not exactly similar only in the fact that they both show a mother-daughter situation where for different reasons the result is still the same they do not have a strong and loving mother daughter bond nor were the children raised in a two-parent loving household.   they could have made Francine a bad mother without making her a drug addict

[Jediknight]

7 minutes ago, CTrent29 said:

 

Francine West's story arc does not seem similar to Iris and Nora's conflict.  Certainly not to me.  Why would Iris compare herself to her mother, considering that she doesn't really have any idea why she had Nora's powers suppressed in the first place?  Come to think of it, I suspect that Nora doesn't really know.  What if the circumstances that led Iris to have Nora's powers suppressed are still in play, because Iris, Barry and everyone else were too busy paying attention to Nora's outbursts?  What if Iris had a very good reason to suppress Nora's powers?  And why hasn't anyone considered this?

They set up the reason last season on Legends of Tomorrow, ARGUS.  We haven't heard Nora say anything about ARGUS, but from Legends we know they take over, turn the country into a police state, and hunt down metas.  Arrow has also started to set it up.

[Trini]

6 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

They set up the reason last season on Legends of Tomorrow, ARGUS.  We haven't heard Nora say anything about ARGUS, but from Legends we know they take over, turn the country into a police state, and hunt down metas.  Arrow has also started to set it up.

We'll see, of course; but I'm pretty sure The Flash isn't following Legends' timeline.

[CTrent29]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

We'll see, of course; but I'm pretty sure The Flash isn't following Legends' timeline.

That doesn't make any sense to me.  Aren't all of the shows supposed to follow the same timeline?  Aren't they all within the same universe?  If "Arrow" is already setting up the ARGUS takeover first hinted in "Legends", then doesn't that mean they are all part of the same timeline?  After all, "The Flash" mentioned Martin Stein's old laboratory . . . and his death.

Edited November 15, 2018 by CTrent29

[Terrafamilia]

Liquid nitrogen is a fire accelerant now? Did their lawyers insist on saying that so some young head full of mush doesn't burn himself up trying it out?

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Oh yes and I forgot cecile's college-educated daughter who was either stripping or working in the gentlemen's club

She did that as a social experiment. She’s not a stripper.

As for shared timelines, well Flash and Arrow are five months apart. While months have gone by in Arrow, Flash picked right up from last season’s finale.

[catrice2]

 but she was working there correct ? whether it was a social experience or not ( which is why I said or)  and why would she be doing that of all things as a social experiment when her mother was District of Attorney, and why was it such a big secret  if it was just a class project? The bigger question to me is why do we never hear anything about the daughter? Cecile deserve some development beyond the stupid I can hear everybody's thoughts.  perhaps give some of that time to the many iterations of Tom Cavanagh

[DearEvette]

Damn.  Iris jumping off that building had to be the most ride or die thing I've seen all year.  Not only did she dive off a building she managed to get a key into a handcuff lock as her velocity increased. Badass indeed!

I loved Camille's tone of voice and The Look she gave Nora when she started her 'This is the West house and in this house ..." speech.  Nora was being extra bratty.  I hope we are finally over this era.  This did the character no favors.

The slo-mo walk into the party and Iris' red dress/ Barry in a tux was everything.  It is so nice to see that side of WestAllen.

Ragdoll was creepy as hell.  Not great motivaton when you think about it, but still creepy.

I actually liked Ralph!  Who knew?  I especially liked him calling Sherloque Shirley. And now that he is no longer a 'woe is me' guy who needs to be pep talked each episode, he's more relaxed and naturally humorous.

Ugh. Sherloque.  The less said....

I am glad they are trying to do something with Caitlin, giving her a story that does not involve her betraying the team (so far) or a failed love interest with new guy of the season.  But I can't help but feel that this entire KF story is  so poorly conceived.  It is not hooking me.  I am not feeling all the "my dad used to do that" breadcrumb clues and clever puzzles to solve.  Maybe it'll kick up some next week, but so far this is a snoozer.

[sarthaz]

This show tends to annoy the crap out of me, and I couldn't care less about Caitlyn's dad, but Iris jumped off a building without hesitation, so we're good, Flash.

[Trini]

2 hours ago, CTrent29 said:

That doesn't make any sense to me.  Aren't all of the shows supposed to follow the same timeline?  Aren't they all within the same universe?  If "Arrow" is already setting up the ARGUS takeover first hinted in "Legends", then doesn't that mean they are all part of the same timeline?  After all, "The Flash" mentioned Martin Stein's old laboratory . . . and his death.

Yes, they're all in the same universe*; I meant that with future timelines in particular, each show is doing it's own storyline, and not necessarily following what the other shows are doing. Especially since the shows take place in the present and the future can always change.

 

*(Mostly? Legends is literally all over the place.)

[BeautifulFlower]

Iris diving off the build was BADASS. This was a great episode for her and WestAllen

I'm so glad Barry and Cecile told Nora that this Iris is NOT future Iris.

I liked Caitlin's speech to Cisco. However, how come she's not taking her own advice? In her speech, she basically told Cisco that he doesn't need to be Vibe to be a hero or matter. When she said that, I started to ask "then why do you want Killer Frost back?"

[BkWurm1]

I've watched literally no more than 1 minute of this episode so far and Barry already has me feeling sorry for Iris.  TWO WEEKS and he's still trying to pretend nothing big went down with Nora??  His hands-off, it will just fix itself, approach is maddening!!! It's the same crap he pulled to avoid having a serious conversation with Nora about why she was staying cool with Iris before things escalated.  Ignoring the issue is NOT a solution and it's just a really lazy way to deal with life's problems.  Or is it just how he's going to be with kids?  Is Barry Allen a naturally crap parent planning on leaving all the heavy lifting to Iris??

[Grace19]

Good episode.  Glad that Iris changed her mind about the chip implant  and that Nora is finally getting to know her mom. It's a shame future iris was not that close to her.  Loved iris saving Barry,  what a badass moment. I love the Westallen talks, it's so matured, realistic and supportive.

[Starry]

Does Caitlin even want Killer Frost back anymore? She was sad that she was still missing in the premiere but the rest of the episodes she's been focusing on her dad. I may have missed something though. I tend to zone out during her plot. Regardless, I think Caitlin views Killer Frost as some sort of friend, as a part of herself, not as the reason she can prove her worth to Team Flash. I didn't compare her situation to Cisco's.

I loved the KillerVibe moments. Cisco got some nice POV and proved what a great asset he is to Team Flash by the end of the episode, with or without powers.

I'm liking Ralph this season. His scene with Iris was hilarious. Sherloque was so annoying though. His accent is TERRIBLE and he even broke the estrapolator!

This was my favorite episode of the season for Iris and WestAllen. Barry trying to cheer her up and supporting her passion for journalism was adorable. I'm glad that both him and Cecile defended Iris to Nora. It was nice to hear stories about Barry and Iris' childhood even though I was bothered by the retcons. Another thing that bugged me was the characters avoiding the issue of Barry's disapperance. I'm not sure what's happening in Nora's future, if it's the same future Legends of Tomorrow has explored or not, but one thing is certain, this Iris has Barry by her side and future Iris does not. Telling her to just make different choices and raise Nora differently is simplistic IMO.

I loved the creepy meta! It seems they're spending less and less time in STAR Labs and that makes me happy. I don't care that they're recycling some sets. I'd take it over spending all the screen time on STAR Labs scenes.

[SevenStars]

6 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

 

I liked Caitlin's speech to Cisco. However, how come she's not taking her own advice? In her speech, she basically told Cisco that he doesn't need to be Vibe to be a hero or matter. When she said that, I started to ask "then why do you want Killer Frost back?"

And unlike KF, Cisco have never used his power to hurt his friends and those he considers family. Unlike KF, when Cisco is power up, he doesn't turn bad or evil, he is still the good guy wanting to help people without having others persuaded or force him to do so.

So really it make sense for Cisco to fight to keep/gain his power. It is in the best interest of everyone, not only himself, Unlike Caitlin/KF. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

10 hours ago, catrice2 said:

but she was working there correct ?

No. She wasn't a full-time regular employee there. As for why we don't see more of her or got to learn how/why she did this? Because she was a plot point.

[Diapason Untuned]

1 hour ago, SevenStars said:

And unlike KF, Cisco have never used his power to hurt his friends and those he considers family. Unlike KF, when Cisco is power up, he doesn't turn bad or evil, he is still the good guy wanting to help people without having others persuaded or force him to do so.

So really it make sense for Cisco to fight to keep/gain his power. It is in the best interest of everyone, not only himself, Unlike Caitlin/KF. 

Killer Frost is more than just powers, she was another personality. Caitlin was shown getting along with her, it makes sense that she wants her back.

[adora721]

2 hours ago, Starry said:

Does Caitlin even want Killer Frost back anymore? She was sad that she was still missing in the premiere but the rest of the episodes she's been focusing on her dad. I may have missed something though. I tend to zone out during her plot. Regardless, I think Caitlin views Killer Frost as some sort of friend, as a part of herself, not as the reason she can prove her worth to Team Flash.

Caitlin's, "When I lost Killer Frost, I was destroyed" makes no sense. Caitlin spent 90% of S3 and six months in the interim between S4 trying to get rid of Killer Frost by any means necessary, legal and illegal. Her sudden love for her murderous, criminal personality disorder makes no sense. And like Cait reminded Cisco, he made a cold gun. He made a cold gun for Caitlin to use, too. So her murderous personality disorder isn't needed at all to have cold powers.

41 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said:

Killer Frost is more than just powers, she was another personality. Caitlin was shown getting along with her, it makes sense that she wants her back.

However, she did say in this episode that her dad knew who she really was, her true self, meaning Killer Frost. Therefore, Caitlin seems to be claiming KF  as her real self. This I can believe. It makes more sense for KF just to be Caitlin who isn't bound by things like law or morality; KF is Caitlin acting out her worst traits and hidden darkness. And I hope she admits that and takes responsibility for all of KF's evil actions, including aiding in HR's murder, attempting to aid in Iris' murder, threatening to murder Cecile, and other crimes. Anything KF did for Amunet was sanctioned by Caitlin, too. It's time she owns it all. Looking forward to her story making sense for once.

Edited November 15, 2018 by adora721

[catrice2]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

No. She wasn't a full-time regular employee there. As for why we don't see more of her or got to learn how/why she did this? Because she was a plot point.

The point is she did not have to be in a gentleman's club they could have encountered her somewhere else.  But I'm not here to argue the point. Whether she was there for part-time full-time or on a temp assignment for 1 hour she was working even if she was doing it for free. And the larger point is that it would be nice to see more character development and interactions with people who make sense

They spent more time on Ralph  past when she is clearly a larger part of Joe's life and he's a main character.

[JapMo]

Loved this episode.  So much Iris.  And Iris and Barry.  The show made a good decision making Iris the "boss" at Star Labs.  

Would like to see Rag Doll again.  I don't think they did enough with him.  Would love for him to slither into his Mom's bedroom so she can see how he turned out.

[rogueprinzess]

13 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I've watched literally no more than 1 minute of this episode so far and Barry already has me feeling sorry for Iris.  TWO WEEKS and he's still trying to pretend nothing big went down with Nora??  His hands-off, it will just fix itself, approach is maddening!!! It's the same crap he pulled to avoid having a serious conversation with Nora about why she was staying cool with Iris before things escalated.  Ignoring the issue is NOT a solution and it's just a really lazy way to deal with life's problems.  Or is it just how he's going to be with kids?  Is Barry Allen a naturally crap parent planning on leaving all the heavy lifting to Iris??

Interesting take. I personally have felt like Barry has been holding back A LOT in his bonding with Nora. Nora's put in 90% of the effort to bond with Barry and he's giving it the bare minimum. I feel like what he said in the premier about how he's feeling 'robbed' of his firsts with his child and just his overall weariness of her being there (and rightly so - how long before she starts losing memories or shifting as a person because she's in the wrong time line?). If Nora put the energy she's put into bonding with Barry into Iris, she and her mom would be inseparable by now. I'm not sure what Barry's apprehension is where Nora's concerned, but I'm hoping the show explains it soon. I think it's not so much that he wants to take a backseat to parenting as much as he doesn't want to actively engage with Nora that much. Why is the question.

[ruby24]

1 hour ago, rogueprinzess said:

Interesting take. I personally have felt like Barry has been holding back A LOT in his bonding with Nora. Nora's put in 90% of the effort to bond with Barry and he's giving it the bare minimum. I feel like what he said in the premier about how he's feeling 'robbed' of his firsts with his child and just his overall weariness of her being there (and rightly so - how long before she starts losing memories or shifting as a person because she's in the wrong time line?). If Nora put the energy she's put into bonding with Barry into Iris, she and her mom would be inseparable by now. I'm not sure what Barry's apprehension is where Nora's concerned, but I'm hoping the show explains it soon. I think it's not so much that he wants to take a backseat to parenting as much as he doesn't want to actively engage with Nora that much. Why is the question.

This ought to be a way bigger issue than they're making it out to be, lol. I know the show just wanted to have their adult child in the present with them, but honestly, they should have figured out a way for her to be truly stuck there, because with all the fuss they've made about changing the timeline, for her to voluntarily hang out in the past for months and months with her parents, things would be changing more and more for the future every day.

Unless she's actively trying to do that, but even so, Barry and Iris should be a lot more concerned about this than they are right now.

I still think though that one of the changes is that Iris will be pregnant with twins and the brother exists now- probably in the season finale I bet.

[immortalfrieza]

3 hours ago, ruby24 said:

This ought to be a way bigger issue than they're making it out to be, lol. I know the show just wanted to have their adult child in the present with them, but honestly, they should have figured out a way for her to be truly stuck there, because with all the fuss they've made about changing the timeline, for her to voluntarily hang out in the past for months and months with her parents, things would be changing more and more for the future every day.

Unless she's actively trying to do that, but even so, Barry and Iris should be a lot more concerned about this than they are right now.

Nora IS trying to change the future, she's trying to prevent Barry from disappearing forever, as well as find and stop Cicada since according to her Barry never manages it. How they're going to handle the fact that Nora is trying to change an event 6 years before it actually happens is another question.

 

I'm glad Iris recognized how awful what she will do is, though she still failed to actually address the problem that Nora actually had with what she will do. Suppressing Nora's powers isn't good, but it's something that could be defended with very few justifications. Not telling Nora that she had powers and is all but stated intended that she would never know isn't just bad, it's utterly monstrous and indefensible. It's taking a fundamental part of Nora away from her and then refusing to allow her to even know that it exists. I can't even come up with a scenario on our level to compare this to, that's how terrible it is. Considering that Nora's memories haven't updated to reflect the change like Savitar's did apparently Iris is at this point still going to do the chip.

 

As Nora has said, what she's seen of the current Iris there's not much difference between now Iris and Future Iris, so it's no wonder Nora turns around when Iris actually starts doing things that run contrary to the restrictive controlling mother she knew. It's no surprise Nora treats current Iris like Future Iris when current Iris, you know, ACTS just like Future Iris.

[ursula]

23 minutes ago, immortalfrieza said:

Considering that Nora's memories haven't updated to reflect the change like Savitar's did apparently Iris is at this point still going to do the chip.

Savitar's memories weren't updated. And Barry still remembers Flashpoint even though technically it never happened. So Nora still having her future memories proves nothing about what actually happens in the future. Even as a justification to condemn Iris, this is quite a remarkable leap.

 

23 minutes ago, immortalfrieza said:

Not telling Nora that she had powers and is all but stated intended that she would never know isn't just bad, it's utterly monstrous and indefensible. It's taking a fundamental part of Nora away from her and then refusing to allow her to even know that it exists. I can't even come up with a scenario on our level to compare this to, that's how terrible it is.

Conspiracy to murder. Attempted murder. Extortion. Kidnapping. Blackmail. Torture. Most people would find these actual criminal actions bad enough but when they're directed at people considered family and friends, they're pretty monstrous. I don't often bring up the Caitlin parallels but if the show expects the audience to move past her history, and even actively root for the return of Killer Frost, I very, very, very, very, very, very much doubt that we're expected to regard any actions of Iris - Future or Present - as warranting the description of monstrous or indefensible. 

I'm sure there are reasons why Iris would be regarded as monstrous but from my observation, that regard has next to nothing to do with anything she actually does. 

Edited November 16, 2018 by ursula

[BkWurm1]

So after watching the episode, I stand by my one minute into the episode opinion that Barry, at least as is, is a crap parent. 

What Cecile did with Nora was what Barry should have done ages ago. 

Why is it left to someone else (it would have been Grampa Joe had JM's back not been injured) to share all these stories that let Nora fall in love with her mom?  They did the context of tricking Nora into thinking she was getting good stuff about her dad but I just feel like if Barry Allen can't sell someone on why Iris West is great, well, that's a failure.  They should have been able to make that work.  So not having Barry be the one to be the bridge between them (which would have made his future absence in Nora's life that much more poignant) feels not only like a huge missed opportunity but also makes Barry seem pretty uninvested in what happened with Nora and Iris at all. 

Maybe it's denial?  I mean he is the one that keeps saying it never has to happen, just decide to be different which is incredibly dismissive.  Clearly, some pretty intense circumstances led to Iris chipping Nora, but he thinks all of that can be swept away by Iris just changing her mind now?  Also pissed that Iris was the one that had to once again drop the hammer on Nora while Barry just sits back and says nothing.  And because Cecille AFTER TWO WEEKS finally steps in and takes care of the problem, Barry gets to keep skating by on doing nothing to fix the problem. 

It's just disappointing since this is HIS family.  Why does it feel like he thinks of Nora as Iris's problem?  He SAYS he backs her up but other than saying it, what does he DO?? 

[Earlfor1]

This has been my favorite episode of season 5 so far, for reasons already mentioned above.  I do have a question that I have asked several people since the premiere of season 5.  Do you think Nora's future has already changed?  I asked this because in season 4, during the wedding episode and a few episodes later, Nora's hair was longer and was styled to look younger than mid 20s.  It only became shorter after "The Enlightenment ".  Could it be that original future Nora was born in 2024/2025 and Iris became pregnant right before Crisis?  However Nora changed the timeline during "The Enlightenment ", and she is now  about 7 years older and  Iris will get pregnant this season.  There has to be a reason for the drastic change in her hairstyle and length. 

Oh.  Ragdoll is what nightmares are made of. 

[BkWurm1]

The good stuff is they let Iris express more than just resolve about being right about the future.  What she expressed to Barry and all those doubts and the anger she had at her future self is something I wish the show would have let her open up to Nora about last week (minus the "Well I must have been right if I decided to do it" ) And if she had, it would have  made a real difference and it's annoying to have the drama of "I was right!!!" and Nora feeling betrayed all over again, and Iris heartbroken about feeling she has to take the hard line if they are just going to have Iris drop her certainty it was a good thing the next time we see her...after Nora is magically fixed by her step Grandma.  

I also enjoyed Caitlin and Cisco's heart to heart surprisingly well.  Both actors were wonderful in that moment.  And it fed my heart that not having powers was praised and showcased for a change.  There was a nice parallel with Cisco being reminded that he's a superhero without powers in the same episode when Iris leaps off a building to save the day.  

Ragdoll was super creepy.  Spaced as to why his big crimes were stealing a necklace and knocking down a building.  Were they connected at all?  

Also, did Ralph swallow Ragdoll??

5 minutes ago, Earlfor1 said:

 There has to be a reason for the drastic change in her hairstyle and length. 

I think it can be explained away by Nora going back to her timeline and getting a new haircut and only then going back in time to stay.  Or in real life, the actress doing so, lol.  :D  

On another show it could be a plot point but I wouldn't bet on it on The Flash.  

[steelyis]

I love two things about this episode:

Everything about Rag Doll and Iris YOLOing off a skyscraper like a boss.

I really like Cisco and Caitlin being friends and helping each other out. I also really liked Ralph doing his best Stretch Armstrong across the city while Iris half-choked him to death.

The things I like in this episode are how Barry said the daytime robbery was bold; his voice and expression made me think he actually was appalled at the audacity. Cecile telling Nora to cool it talking trash about Iris in the Allen house. And Ralph. I've never disliked Ralph, I actually liked how the show twisted some of Plastic Man's shadiness into Ralph's character, but I understand why some found last season's Ralph to be an annoying show eater. I think he's really settled down and relaxed in his scenes this season and it makes him even more likable to me.

I only care about Caitlin's dad because Kyle Secor is playing him, any and all Homicide: Life on the Street alum automatically get my undivided adoration attention.

I didn't hate or dislike anything in the episode, but I was indifferent to Nora. I think I won't warm to her until the show gives us a solid, believable, basis for Nora's animosity towards future!Iris. Otherwise, I'll probably always side-eye her judgement and personality.

[BkWurm1]

On 11/13/2018 at 10:27 PM, Lady Calypso said:

True...although also true to Arrowverse fashion, they reuse sets. The mansion that Barry/Iris went to is the location that Arrow's 100th episode took place in, I'm about 95% certain.

Still, for this show, having scenes outside of STAR Labs, the police station, Joe/Cecile's place or the same three warehouses they use is great.

At least the time they used the mansion in Arrow's 100th it was just an alien induced dream created by tapping into the combined memories of Oliver, Sara, Thea, Ray and Diggle.  So it can be explained away why the same mansion was in both Central City and supposedly in Star City.  

On 11/14/2018 at 7:52 PM, CTrent29 said:

That doesn't make any sense to me.  Aren't all of the shows supposed to follow the same timeline?  Aren't they all within the same universe?  If "Arrow" is already setting up the ARGUS takeover first hinted in "Legends", then doesn't that mean they are all part of the same timeline?  After all, "The Flash" mentioned Martin Stein's old laboratory . . . and his death.

 

The Arrow showrunner did an interview where she said they are all doing their own thing but it does feel like Arrow at least is leaning into a similar dystopian future that we saw previously on Legends and the ARGUS goes after meta's would offer an explanation for Iris's actions.  Except on The Flash and Legends, the future is not fixed.  We've been told the flashforwards we see on Arrow are part of a fixed future.  So who knows what will really happen in the end.  

On 11/14/2018 at 8:58 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

 

As for shared timelines, well Flash and Arrow are five months apart. While months have gone by in Arrow, Flash picked right up from last season’s finale.

 

I wonder if we are supposed to have forgotten that?  I can't really see them doing a five month time jump any time soon.  But now that the West-Allen family are friendly again, maybe they could send Nora back to her future and then come back and it's five months later in the past? 

Edited November 16, 2018 by BkWurm1

[ruby24]

They ignored the time jump altogether this year. They're doing a Thanksgiving episode this season instead of a Christmas one, so obviously time has passed, but I know they're just going to ignore it, which I find annoying.

[Starry]

7 hours ago, ursula said:

Conspiracy to murder. Attempted murder. Extortion. Kidnapping. Blackmail. Torture. Most people would find these actual criminal actions bad enough but when they're directed at people considered family and friends, they're pretty monstrous. I don't often bring up the Caitlin parallels but if the show expects the audience to move past her history, and even actively root for the return of Killer Frost, I very, very, very, very, very, very much doubt that we're expected to regard any actions of Iris - Future or Present - as warranting the description of monstrous or indefensible. 

I'm sure there are reasons why Iris would be regarded as monstrous but from my observation, that regard has next to nothing to do with anything she actually does. 

It's because certain viewers like Caitlin more than Iris. I can't think of anything else that would justify calling Iris an indefensible monster while turning a blind eye to Caitlin and Frost's atrocious actions. The writers aren't helping but if viewers can look past the writing to crucify Iris then they can do the same for Caitlin. The writers are holding Iris accountable by having Nora get back at her but they aren't portraying her as an indefensible monster either. That's why she gets Barry in her corner, defending her. If Barry's or any other character's opinion is not enough to sway viewers then the same standards should be applied to Caitlin. If they aren't, it means that there's bias in play.

 

2 hours ago, ruby24 said:

They ignored the time jump altogether this year. They're doing a Thanksgiving episode this season instead of a Christmas one, so obviously time has passed, but I know they're just going to ignore it, which I find annoying.

It's possible some time passes between this episode and the next and again between the next and the Thanksgiving one.

Before this episode they released a still of Barry at the West house with Cecile. Maybe he was there to talk to Nora but the scene was cut from the final product.

[catrice2]

4 hours ago, steelyis said:

I love two things about this episode:

Everything about Rag Doll and Iris YOLOing off a skyscraper like a boss.

I really like Cisco and Caitlin being friends and helping each other out. I also really liked Ralph doing his best Stretch Armstrong across the city while Iris half-choked him to death.

The things I like in this episode are how Barry said the daytime robbery was bold; his voice and expression made me think he actually was appalled at the audacity. Cecile telling Nora to cool it talking trash about Iris in the Allen house. And Ralph. I've never disliked Ralph, I actually liked how the show twisted some of Plastic Man's shadiness into Ralph's character, but I understand why some found last season's Ralph to be an annoying show eater. I think he's really settled down and relaxed in his scenes this season and it makes him even more likable to me.

I only care about Caitlin's dad because Kyle Secor is playing him, any and all Homicide: Life on the Street alum automatically get my undivided adoration attention.

I didn't hate or dislike anything in the episode, but I was indifferent to Nora. I think I won't warm to her until the show gives us a solid, believable, basis for Nora's animosity towards future!Iris. Otherwise, I'll probably always side-eye her judgement and personality.

 I don't know how to quote just one part but trust me I am right there with you about Homicide life on the street. And thank you for using the whole title.  oh my gosh it was one of my favorite shows and the acting was superb

[Trini]

3 hours ago, Starry said:

Before this episode they released a still of Barry at the West house with Cecile. Maybe he was there to talk to Nora but the scene was cut from the final product.

I was wondering about that too. I think it may have been a scene at the end of the episode, after Iris and Nora start talking to each other.

[DearEvette]

13 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

As Nora has said, what she's seen of the current Iris there's not much difference between now Iris and Future Iris, so it's no wonder Nora turns around when Iris actually starts doing things that run contrary to the restrictive controlling mother she knew. It's no surprise Nora treats current Iris like Future Iris when current Iris, you know, ACTS just like Future Iris.

Since Nora has made zero effort to look at, speak to, spend time in the same room with the current Iris, the assertion that current Iris is like future Iris from Nora's perspective is baseless.  By contrast, Iris has attempted time and time again to connect with and get to know Nora.  The only time Iris gets at all impatient with Nora is when Nora is acting impulsive and out of control out in the field.  Not following the protocols the team have in place for good reason.  In this episode alone she cut Iris off, went off half cocked and almost got two innocent bystanders killed because she was in her feels instead of acting like an actual crime-fighter. 

One of the biggest problems I have with how the character of Nora has been presented so far is that she had the emotional maturity of a 12 year old.  Everything takes second place to her feelings and impulses.  She is all Id.  She doesn't stop and think about how something might need to happen for the greater good -- just for her.  Even in the previous episode, they had come up with a plan about how to approach Spin.  And because she was attracted to the girl, all thoughts of the plan went straight out the window and all she did was flirt.  She refused to even consider Spin might be trouble because Iris was suspicious and she'd do anything to disagree with Iris or to show Iris up.  Welp, turns out Iris was right because Iris had a better perspective.

So I can't get behind everything Nora says a gospel truth because so far she had not proven herself be a reliable narrator and she definitely doesn't seem to think outside of herself.

Maybe, just maybe, future Iris has some perspective about future events that informed why she did what she did that Nora never took the time to find out because she ran off without even trying to talk to future Iris about it.

Edited November 16, 2018 by DearEvette

[BeautifulFlower]

So I read this another forum under a review for this episode.

Quote

One thing I hate is that everybody is giving Iris a pass on this. Even Barry is doing it. Iris apparently has been crapping on Nora for years, and to top it off she even took away Nora's body autonomy. The reason that Nora is "back talking" and "disrespecting" Iris is because this is the same Iris. Let that sink in. Iris didn't become that way, do those things, because Barry disappeared and CADMUS started rounding up metas. She's always been that way.

I don't get this. First off, what exactly is Iris getting a pass for? Who is giving Iris a pass? What I've others say and what Barry and Cecile did was point out how wrong it was for Nora to be disrespecting past Iris for something she didn't even do. Has this person been watching this show? How could anyone think current Iris deserves to be treated this way?

I do agree it was wrong for Nora to be lied to all of her life. Her feelings on that are completely valid. Something I feel some people are forgetting is we don't know the reason for why she was chipped. Not even Nora knows. 

With that said, I have a theory. Has anybody been paying attention to Nora's words? She said future Iris "raised her to be afraid of the world". She always heard the word "no" on going out and doing things. I feel like that metahumans are illegal in the future.

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

So I read this another forum under a review for this episode.

I don't get this. First off, what exactly is Iris getting a pass for? Who is giving Iris a pass? What I've others say and what Barry and Cecile did was point out how wrong it was for Nora to be disrespecting past Iris for something she didn't even do. Has this person been watching this show? How could anyone think current Iris deserves to be treated this way?

I do agree it was wrong for Nora to be lied to all of her life. Her feelings on that are completely valid. Something I feel some people are forgetting is we don't know the reason for why she was chipped. Not even Nora knows. 

With that said, I have a theory. Has anybody been paying attention to Nora's words? She said future Iris "raised her to be afraid of the world". She always heard the word "no" on going out and doing things. I feel like that metahumans are illegal in the future.

According to Legends of Tomorrow, they are, starting in 2023 when legislation is passed banning metas (and outlawing religion). ARGUS (not CADMUS) is the driving force behind the ban, and by Nora's time (2048), the country is an aggressive authoritarian state that has ARGUS hunting down metas and locking them away in concentration camps, where they are cruelly tortured and experimented on (and supposedly, Arrow is already showing ARGUS beginning to go down this path in 2018).

So that would have been my question to Nora when she started ranting about Future Iris:  "What is the current legal status of metas in your time?  Are they respected and encouraged, or persecuted and hunted like animals?"

Edited November 17, 2018 by legaleagle53

[AnimeMania]

1 hour ago, legaleagle53 said:

 

So that would have been my question to Nora when she started ranting about Future Iris:  "What is the current legal status of metas in your time?  Are they respected and encouraged, or persecuted and hunted like animals?"

Well The Flash does have a museum and is still on the front page after he has been missing for years.

[catrice2]

Since I fast forward through so much....has Nora mentioned Joe or any of the others place in her life in the future?  Should we assume that something happened to all of them?  Also wasn't Nora supposed to be really smart? Could she not have figured out a way to remove the chip, reverse the device, whatever. I actually missed when she said how the power dampening worked. 

Other than the fact that I think they have the wrong actress in the role, it would have been a nice change for Nora to act age appropriate Whenever she speaks about it she conveys that her primary gripe is that she was not allowed to get the limelight and recognition she thinks she deserves.   She also keeps saying that she and her dad are heroes, in a manner that implies that anyone without superpowers is insignificant or what they contribute is not as important.   

I find the scenes with her exhausting 

[DearEvette]

11 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Since I fast forward through so much....has Nora mentioned Joe or any of the others place in her life in the future?  Should we assume that something happened to all of them?  Also wasn't Nora supposed to be really smart? Could she not have figured out a way to remove the chip, reverse the device, whatever. I actually missed when she said how the power dampening worked. 

Other than the fact that I think they have the wrong actress in the role, it would have been a nice change for Nora to act age appropriate Whenever she speaks about it she conveys that her primary gripe is that she was not allowed to get the limelight and recognition she thinks she deserves.   She also keeps saying that she and her dad are heroes, in a manner that implies that anyone without superpowers is insignificant or what they contribute is not as important.   

I find the scenes with her exhausting 

Well when she announced who she was she affectionately called them "Papa Joe", "Mama Cecile" and "Auntie Jenna"  so it seems like she had a good relationship with the rest of the family.

I solely blame any problems with Nora's maturity on the writing.  Physically she is perfect casting because she looks like she could be Barry & Iris' actual child.  But Jessica Parker Kennedy could play Nora much more maturely if the material called for it.  I watched her for four seasons on Black Sails and she was a prostitute in a brothel who worked her way up to madam.  She was a smart, cunning, manipulative survivor.  The complete opposite of Nora.

Edited November 17, 2018 by DearEvette

[steelyis]

On 11/16/2018 at 9:35 AM, DearEvette said:

Since Nora has made zero effort to look at, speak to, spend time in the same room with the current Iris, the assertion that current Iris is like future Iris from Nora's perspective is baseless.  By contrast, Iris has attempted time and time again to connect with and get to know Nora.  The only time Iris gets at all impatient with Nora is when Nora is acting impulsive and out of control out in the field.  Not following the protocols the team have in place for good reason.  In this episode alone she cut Iris off, went off half cocked and almost got two innocent bystanders killed because she was in her feels instead of acting like an actual crime-fighter. 

One of the biggest problems I have with how the character of Nora has been presented so far is that she had the emotional maturity of a 12 year old.  Everything takes second place to her feelings and impulses.  She is all Id.  She doesn't stop and think about how something might need to happen for the greater good -- just for her.  Even in the previous episode, they had come up with a plan about how to approach Spin.  And because she was attracted to the girl, all thoughts of the plan went straight out the window and all she did was flirt.  She refused to even consider Spin might be trouble because Iris was suspicious and she'd do anything to disagree with Iris or to show Iris up.  Welp, turns out Iris was right because Iris had a better perspective.

So I can't get behind everything Nora says a gospel truth because so far she had not proven herself be a reliable narrator and she definitely doesn't seem to think outside of herself.

Maybe, just maybe, future Iris has some perspective about future events that informed why she did what she did that Nora never took the time to find out because she ran off without even trying to talk to future Iris about it.

 

This.

Your whole post perfectly lays out how much of an unreliable narrator Nora is when she talks about future!Iris's actions.

Nora is angry, impulsive and worst of all, she's selfish (yeah, I'm not letting her running around in the past, despite the risks, go anytime soon). She too flawed of a character right now for me to take anything she says seriously. She sounds like an overly dramatic teenager complaining about mommy not letting her play with her superpowers. Poor Nora, mommy forced you to be like 99% of humanity: not special.

Whatever, girl.

How am I supposed to empathize with Nora when she comes off so entitled and petulant?

 

3 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I don't get this. First off, what exactly is Iris getting a pass for? Who is giving Iris a pass? What I've others say and what Barry and Cecile did was point out how wrong it was for Nora to be disrespecting past Iris for something she didn't even do. Has this person been watching this show? How could anyone think current Iris deserves to be treated this way?

 

Thankfully, Nora is the only character treating Iris badly. Team Flash, if they all know future!Iris chipped Nora, seem to be staying out of it and are nothing but supportive of Iris. I think The Flash fandom and not the show itself is conflicted about present!Iris's culpability for future!Iris's actions. The show sides with present!Iris and that's all I need to care about, because certain right wings of fandom have been way too messy about Iris being black for me to concern myself with their excuses and rationalizations for hating Iris whenever she takes a breath.

[phoenics]

On 11/15/2018 at 9:27 AM, Diapason Untuned said:

Killer Frost is more than just powers, she was another personality. Caitlin was shown getting along with her, it makes sense that she wants her back.

That's just Version 359080448 of this show's take on Killer Frost.  One version was simply Caitlin, but evil.  One that tried to kill Barry and Cisco... Another version was a "friend".  Another version was Caitlin, but "angry".  Another version was Caitlin trying to get rid of her powers - and who tried to kill that lab tech, Julian and a host of other people.  Another version worked with Savitar to kill Iris and was supposedly out of Caitlin's control.  But another version was able to be summoned by Caitlin to fight in the church in the crossover.  Another version wouldn't come out unless Cisco and Harry scared Caitlin.

So no - it doesn't really make sense why Caitlin would want a personality back who has tried to kill nearly the entire team and spent the better part of the back half of an entire season plotting to kill Iris - and who NEVER apologized for it or was held accountable.

Caitlin may want KF back, but NO ONE on this show - not Cisco, not Barry, not Cecile, not Joe and not Iris - should want her back.  And they really should speak up.  Having half the cast empathetically helping Caitlin rejoin with a damn murderer just makes it seem like KF never did anything horrible and (as of last season) was still making threats to Iris.

You know what Caitlin story I'd find interesting?  The one where she's held accountable for her sh*t.