S05.E05: All Doll'd Up

[UNOSEZ]

59 minutes ago, phoenics said:

You know what Caitlin story I'd find interesting?  The one where she's held accountable for her sh*t.

They're stashing that one for the  season 24 november sweeps . So just hold on

[legaleagle53]

I just caught up with the episode, and I have two comments. First, Iris in that red dress at the black-tie party?  Look up "hot" in the dictionary.  You'll see a color pic of Iris in that dress!

Second, do I even want to know how Ralph managed to trap Rag Doll in Ralph's physical body?  I'm pretty sure that's ONE visual I NEVER need to see in my head!

[Trini]

40 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

I just caught up with the episode, and I have two comments. First, Iris in that red dress at the black-tie party?  Look up "hot" in the dictionary.  You'll see a color pic of Iris in that dress!

That time when your leads are also models:

Source
 

41 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Second, do I even want to know how Ralph managed to trap Rag Doll in Ralph's physical body?  I'm pretty sure that's ONE visual I NEVER need to see in my head!

I'm fanwanking that he trapped him between him and his suit, and I refuse to think more about it!

[adora721]

On 11/15/2018 at 7:46 PM, immortalfrieza said:

Not telling Nora that she had powers and is all but stated intended that she would never know isn't just bad, it's utterly monstrous and indefensible. It's taking a fundamental part of Nora away from her and then refusing to allow her to even know that it exists. I can't even come up with a scenario on our level to compare this to, that's how terrible it is.

So, we found out in this episode that Thomas Snow always knew about Killer Frost and Caitlin's powers, but never told her. Do you find Thomas' actions equally "utterly monstrous and indefensible"? It's also likely that Cait's mother knew, too, but also failed to tell her; so also monstrous? And her mom lying about her dad being dead - indefensible?

Edited November 18, 2018 by adora721

[rogueprinzess]

4 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Well when she announced who she was she affectionately called them "Papa Joe", "Mama Cecile" and "Auntie Jenna"  so it seems like she had a good relationship with the rest of the family.

I solely blame any problems with Nora's maturity on the writing.  Physically she is perfect casting because she looks like she could be Barry & Iris' actual child.  But Jessica Parker Kennedy could play Nora much more maturely if the material called for it.  I watched her for four seasons on Black Sails and she was a prostitute in a brothel who worked her way up to madam.  She was a smart, cunning, manipulative survivor.  The complete opposite of Nora.

SO MUCH THIS! I don't blame the acting because as you've mentioned, JPK has shown her acting chops on Black Sails and can do a variety of emotions and dispositions. This is the writing (and by extension, the editing) of her character. She's written to be immature and self-centred. She's written to have little to no concern for the only parent she's really ever known. I've seen and personally known so many people who were raised by truly awful parents who STILL would give anything to have a healthy relationship with them because that's how familial relationships work (of course I'm excluding parents who've committed horrific acts i.e. willful abuse and worse). As many have brought out before, even if Iris was cold and distant in the future, it makes zero sense that Nora being in this time - seeing her mother be apparently completely different than the one she's known - wouldn't be trying to get to know this version of her mother and building the relationship she's always craved. And how she could have had a great relationship with her grandparents and aunt whilst raging against her mother - that will never add up. Joe is Iris' biggest stan next to Barry. Anyhow, point being, the writing for this could have been smoother, or they could have made Nora a teenager instead of a mid-twenty something if this is the route they wanted to go.

[AnimeMania]

3 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Since I fast forward through so much....has Nora mentioned Joe or any of the others place in her life in the future?  Should we assume that something happened to all of them?  Also wasn't Nora supposed to be really smart? Could she not have figured out a way to remove the chip, reverse the device, whatever. I actually missed when she said how the power dampening worked. 

Would have been good if Nora had brought that chip with her so they could reverse engineer it and they could stop housing evil metas at StarLabs and could start releasing them back into society.

[LisaM]

I really liked Rag Doll - very creepy and effective.

Loved Iris jumping off of the building.

Sherloque is on my last nerve - as is Nora.

Appreciated Cecile setting Nora straight.

[BkWurm1]

On 11/17/2018 at 8:55 PM, adora721 said:

So, we found out in this episode that Thomas Snow always knew about Killer Frost and Caitlin's powers, but never told her. Do you find Thomas' actions equally "utterly monstrous and indefensible"? It's also likely that Cait's mother knew, too, but also failed to tell her; so also monstrous? And her mom lying about her dad being dead - indefensible?

Well yes and no.  Cailin had a monster take over her body and brain and she nearly killed her friends because she had no clue that this power was something she should have spent her life learning to control/live with.  Hiding it from her was a terrible thing to do.  Also her father faking his death and vanishing from her life is terrible.  On the other hand, suppressing a power that turns her evil and not telling her that she has the capacity to just flip to evil is not the same as depriving someone of a gift and you could say talent.  

On 11/17/2018 at 9:57 PM, AnimeMania said:

Would have been good if Nora had brought that chip with her so they could reverse engineer it and they could stop housing evil metas at StarLabs and could start releasing them back into society.

 

Quote

 Also wasn't Nora supposed to be really smart? Could she not have figured out a way to remove the chip, reverse the device, whatever. 

I think the point was she didn't know she'd been chipped.  But once she did, she easily removed it.  

[catrice2]

Thanks. I have fast forwarded through a lot. I don't even know how and why Sherloque is there.  Well, unless Iris developed a different skill set then the question would be unless in the future the chips are being sold on line who made it, and how did she insert it? It would also be hard to believe the Joe would also not have known about it so I don't know why her anger is reserved for Iris. Not sure if she said Barry disappeared while Iris was pregnant, but if not is not possible that Barry inserted the chip? 

[rogueprinzess]

14 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Thanks. I have fast forwarded through a lot. I don't even know how and why Sherloque is there.  Well, unless Iris developed a different skill set then the question would be unless in the future the chips are being sold on line who made it, and how did she insert it? It would also be hard to believe the Joe would also not have known about it so I don't know why her anger is reserved for Iris. Not sure if she said Barry disappeared while Iris was pregnant, but if not is not possible that Barry inserted the chip? 

I'd bet money that Iris didn't actually create the chip, but knew how to get it or requested to have it made. My money is that Cisco, Harry, Caitlin or Felicity (or a combined effort) created it, maybe out of a sense of protecting metas in the future that Legends speaks of. Caitlin could have planted it as she has medical knowledge, or heck maybe even Wally phased through her to do it (which actually now that I think on it is a likely theory that would leave no scars for Nora or anyone else ask about later on).

I also think that Joe knew about it and was likely on board. He kept Barry's meta side from Iris thinking it was the best thing to protect her, and if Iris convinced him that it was best for Nora I can see him agreeing. My guess is that Nora's issues with Iris weren't just about the chip, but in the last episode she eluded to the idea that Iris is emotionally unavailable to Nora and refused to tell her anything about her past. Joe on the other hand may not have been so shutdown and he likely tried to compensate for Iris' inability to bond more with Nora (we still don't know why she was like that, but my money is that it was triggered largely by losing Barry)

In the show Nora said that Barry disappeared when she was maybe two. So he may have been the one to insert it as per my guess about Wally. The only reason I don't think so is because I doubt Nora showed any signs of being a meta that young, but perhaps they were able to test for it. I'd kinda like idea of Barry being the one to do it though; it would further cement his solidarity with Iris on all things and also knock him off the pedestal that Nora insists on putting him on.

Edited November 20, 2018 by rogueprinzess

[Kate45]

4 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Well yes and no.  Cailin had a monster take over her body and brain and she nearly killed her friends because she had no clue that this power was something she should have spent her life learning to control/live with.  Hiding it from her was a terrible thing to do.  Also her father faking his death and vanishing from her life is terrible.  On the other hand, suppressing a power that turns her evil and not telling her that she has the capacity to just flip to evil is not the same as depriving someone of a gift and you could say talent.  

Isn’t this a jump though? We don’t know why future!Iris made that call, so for all we know Nora having powers could be killing her. In the same vein, we don’t know why Caitlin’s father did it either. 

In general, I have an issue with the assumptions made by the poster going as far as to call Iris a monster in the present and the future. This poster seems to have an axe to grind with Iris and has consistently made extremely negative attributions about Iris as a character. I will always reject that because nothing in canon suggests that Iris would ever want to hurt a stranger much less her child. This is the same woman who suggested that Barry save a monkey over saving her life, but she’s a monster? No. That doesn’t work for me. 

[Trini]

On 11/17/2018 at 10:57 PM, AnimeMania said:

Would have been good if Nora had brought that chip with her so they could reverse engineer it and they could stop housing evil metas at StarLabs and could start releasing them back into society.

They already have the technology - the power dampening cuffs.  I suppose it's just a matter of time before they refine it to be an implant. But then you have the ethical and legal issues that come with 'chipping' people; but the show will never address them.
 

4 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Thanks. I have fast forwarded through a lot. I don't even know how and why Sherloque is there.  Well, unless Iris developed a different skill set then the question would be unless in the future the chips are being sold on line who made it, and how did she insert it? It would also be hard to believe the Joe would also not have known about it so I don't know why her anger is reserved for Iris. Not sure if she said Barry disappeared while Iris was pregnant, but if not is not possible that Barry inserted the chip? 

To me, it's obvious that this is not something Iris could just decide and execute by herself. And even if she did - which I highly doubt - the rest of her family and Team STAR Labs would also be complicit in the lie about Nora's powers. I'm just waiting for more info about the (Nora's) future, because there's clearly a lot of context we're missing.

[adora721]

20 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Well yes and no.  Cailin had a monster take over her body and brain and she nearly killed her friends because she had no clue that this power was something she should have spent her life learning to control/live with.  Hiding it from her was a terrible thing to do.  Also her father faking his death and vanishing from her life is terrible.  On the other hand, suppressing a power that turns her evil and not telling her that she has the capacity to just flip to evil is not the same as depriving someone of a gift and you could say talent.  

"Well yes and no."

The OP stated that Iris not telling Nora about her powers was "monstrous and indefensible" . I wholeheartedly disagree. The purpose of asking the same about Caitlin’s parents was to show that the standard of “monstrous and indefensible” should be used there as well since they did the same thing. I’m not sure what you are answering yes and no to; please explain.

“Cailin had a monster take over her body and brain”

1. We know that KF has been in Cait since childhood. I wouldn’t characterize a child as a “monster.”
2. We don’t know if KF was evil from the start or became evil because she had been suppressed for 28 years.  I guess we'll find out tonight.
3. Caitlin now wants that “monster” back, so Cait is acknowledging that she and that monster are what makes Cait whole.

“and she nearly killed her friends because she had no clue that this power was something she should have spent her life learning to control/live with. “

I vehemently disagree with the text I put in bold. Cait didn’t harm her friends because she didn’t know how to control Killer Frost her entire life.

Let’s go back to early days when Caitlin described herself as “ice” when talking about Ronnie and herself as “fire and ice.” Recall that Hartley Rathaway knew Cait when she was happy with Ronnie and mentioned the fact that Caitlin didn’t like dealing with emotions even back then.

In 1x6, the writers had Barry say, "The particle accelerator accident just made us more of who we already are." to Tony/Girder. In S2, Patty said, “Getting those powers didn’t change who you really are. They only highlighted the worst parts of who you already were.” Patty to Slick/Sand demon.

Even Zoom/Hunter saw the darkness inside Caitlin and told her about it in S2 before Flashpoint. KF is who Caitlin already was, just a heightened version of Caitlin's inner, hidden darkness.

After finding out about her powers as an adult, Caitlin (not KF) chose to do many terrible things:

•  In 3x7 alone, Caitlin, not KF, committed at least 11 felonies.
• In 3x19, Barry said, "Caitlin, you can fight this." She replied, "I know. But I don't want to." That was Cait making a choice to remain Killer Frost.
• Caitlin kept a part of the stone, which Savitar used to drive Wally nuts. Sure, it delayed Savitar’s escape, but keeping it hidden from the team was selfish.

Here’s what Cait did between 3x23 and 4x5, after blending with KF at which point she was supposedly “good-ish”:

• Cait made the choice to go to slave trafficker, Amunet, instead of seeking help from her friends.
• The list of felonies Cait sanctioned via Killer Frost includes maiming, slavery, and torture.

Now let’s look at what Cait did once she made peace with Killer Frost and wanted her back:

• Caitlin made the choice to try to get the Thinker to scare KF to come back, almost getting Cynthia killed in 4x20 and messing up the team’s plan.
• Cait also made the choice to offer to work for Amunet again in exchange for Amunet’s tech.
• Cait lied to the team to get them to go to Amunet for help, but failed to mention she needed Amunet’s tech.
• Cait was the one who suggested therapy with Dr. Finkle for WA. Why not seek therapy for herself beyond one minor session?

These things were done be a multi-degree holding doctor of at least 28-30 years of age who should have been mature enough to handle these things better. So, I say that Killer Frost is the mask Cait wears to hide Cait’s evil from herself (and others).

“On the other hand, suppressing a power that turns her evil and not telling her that she has the capacity to just flip to evil is not the same as depriving someone of a gift and you could say talent.  “

This assumes that it’s Cait’s powers that turn her evil instead of Cait having evil inside that is unleashed when she turns into KF. Additionally, we’ve seen KF and Cait use cold powers to make it snow on Christmas, save Iris’ arm from decay, kill Nazis, save Barry from being trapped in a mirror, and save Barry from Savitar. Therefore, cold powers aren’t inherently evil. It’s the person wielding the powers who is evil. 

ETA: Recall that when asked to freeze Iris' arm to prevent her death, Cait said, "I can't even if I wanted to." The writers put that line in, and the producers and editors left it in knowing what it implied. It implied that Caitlin didn't want to save Iris. This was a clue, IMO, to Cait's true nature, and it isn't good. Now, they are retconning it for the umpteenth time; let's hope it's successful.

Edited November 20, 2018 by adora721

[VCRTracking]

I pretty much had the same reaction as the Blindwave guys. Iris' jump is definitely now a "Top 10" moment of this show:

[BeautifulFlower]

9 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I pretty much had the same reaction as the Blindwave guys. Iris' jump is definitely now a "Top 10" moment of this show:

Speaking of that, I loved that Candice was liking tweets of people sending her reactions to that scene

[VCRTracking]

17 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Speaking of that, I loved that Candice was liking tweets of people sending her reactions to that scene

Married2TheReal's is the best. People really better start getting off Iris' ass after this!