S12.E03: The Procreation Calculation

[Latverian Diplomat]

I would have preferred if Anu had just asked Raj on a romantic date instead of doing the public proposal thing.

Maybe I was giving Raj too much credit; I presumed he was looking for a genuine romance, not a Rom-Com "dramatic gesture", but he seemed pleased with the latter.

[nygma619]

1 hour ago, theatremouse said:

This is how it played to me. I don't think they were presenting it that Penny never wanted children and oops she and Leonard really should've discussed it before. It's not like when Bernadette originally was thoroughly anti-kid. I think Penny was previously either ambivalent or maybe assumed she'd have kids because "it's what you do" but the more time she spends with Bernadette since having children, the more thought she's put into it, and consequently came to the realization that actually she really doesn't want them. In fact I think it may have happened in the moment when Bernie was pushing the issue that something clicked with Penny and she shifted from "meh whatever maybe later" to "nope!" That's why we saw her immediately go home and try to talk to Leonard about it. It wasn't some secret before. I think she realized this within the span of the episode and promptly tried to have the conversation.

Yeah it played that way to me to. But honestly I can see her changing her mind about this just as much as her changing her mind on whether she hates her current job or not.

Penny's feelings felt earned, but Leonard's did not. Given him wanting children for years him accepting this in the span of a day just didn't fly with me.

If it's revisited & it's revealed he's still bitter about it, that is fine. If not, it'll be OOC IMO.

4 minutes ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

I would have preferred if Anu had just asked Raj on a romantic date instead of doing the public proposal thing.

Maybe I was giving Raj too much credit; I presumed he was looking for a genuine romance, not a Rom-Com "dramatic gesture", but he seemed pleased with the latter.

He was swept off her feet by her game saving gesture, not by Anu herself.

[Latverian Diplomat]

4 minutes ago, nygma619 said:

He was swept off her feet by her game saving gesture, not by Anu herself.

That's my point. It was a relatively easy if showy gesture. That's a very juvenile conception of what romance is. For all of Raj's flaws, I thought his ideas of what romance is and why he craves it were more sophisticated than that. I thought wrong, apparently.

[nygma619]

10 minutes ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

That's my point. It was a relatively easy if showy gesture. That's a very juvenile conception of what romance is. For all of Raj's flaws, I thought his ideas of what romance is and why he craves it were more sophisticated than that. I thought wrong, apparently.

More like he's desperate, and not thinking straight.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

Bernadette . . . did not want kids and changed her mind - and that's fine. But that does not give her the right to walk all over Penny's decision

Sure, but it is consistent with the bossy version of Bernadette that we've often seen over the years. 

I think Penny declaring to Amy that she just wants to be the "fun aunt" sets the stage for Penny not reversing this decision to abstain from procreation. I thought the reveal that one of Leonard's siblings (who is one of Beverly's kids!) had already increased the world population with five children, served to further support the writers' choice to make Penny and Leonard agree to not become biological parents. The fact that none of this group of friends has drifted apart either socially or geographically after more than 12 years, combined with the reality of at least two children being born into the group with likely more on the way, signifies that Penny and Leonard will not be untethered from the next generation just because they aren't legally parents. I don't really care if the show ends with Penny and Leonard deliriously happy to discover that Penny is pregnant—it would bookend season one Leonard's declaration that he and Penny would have children that would be both beautiful and intelligent. But I do not think they are necessarily going that route, and will also applaud them if they don't. 

[nygma619]

23 hours ago, AuntieL said:

The thing is Leonard wasn't terribly adamant about it. He said he'd always assumed that he would have kids. That's different than kids being a deal breaker.  I did think Amy's reaction was funny. Bernadette and Howard sitting on the couch trying not to listen to Stuart's luuuurve music cracked me up.

Yes but nothing in Leonard's history shows he was adamant against it either. Even admitted children was something he wanted. It's part of why him accepting in the span of a day didn't feel earned to me.

[nygma619]

4 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Sure, but it is consistent with the bossy version of Bernadette that we've often seen over the years. 

I think Penny declaring to Amy that she just wants to be the "fun aunt" sets the stage for Penny not reversing this decision to abstain from procreation. 

We're talking about the same Penny who in season 8 said she wanted to be a pharmecutical sales rep after bombing an audition, only to change her mind &  declare in season 9 that she hates it, that Penny?

Unless Leonard agrees to get a vasectomy to seal the deal like Howard last season, I wouldn't call Penny's declaration in this episode a sure thing.

[rmontro]

13 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

Penny introduced Howard to Bernadette because of Leonard and Howard's pack that if one of them ever got a girlfriend they would ask that girlfriend to introduce her friends to his friends.  Howard and Raj set up Sheldon and Amy on a dating website.

That is a great point.  It is extremely hypocritical of Howard to criticize Raj's arranged marriage, because he got set up himself (not for marriage, but apparently Bernadette was the only woman who would have him).  Sheldon and Amy were also set up.  Leonard went out and got his own girl, but it took him eight seasons of and on and off relationship to wear her down enough to marry him.  Since this is the last season of BBT, I don't think Raj has that kind of time.

[biakbiak]

1 hour ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

would have preferred if Anu had just asked Raj on a romantic date instead of doing the public proposal thing.

But arranged marriages aren’t about romance initially so that would be odd for her given that she wants an arranged marriage. 

[EllenB]

I'm in the minority in that I love Leonard and Penny together.  Sure, they bicker sometimes, but manage to work it out.  Their relationship has always been about overcoming their basic differences.  And I really love it when they are not the main focus of the plot, but are in the background doing their Statler and Waldorf commentary as a united front.

Oh, and I'm one of those who never particularly wanted kids or pictured myself as a parent.  I didn't even find my nephew and niece all that appealing when they were little.  But, I had my whoops moment in my early 30s, decided to have the kid, stayed with (and later married) the father, and it turned out fine for all of us, and still is 36 years later.

[Latverian Diplomat]

54 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

But arranged marriages aren’t about romance initially so that would be odd for her given that she wants an arranged marriage. 

Yes, but Raj said he wanted romance anyway. So essentially, she was saying, "hey, even if this was arranged, it can still be romantic too. Let's shoot for both." I don't have a problem with her doing that (especially if she thinks Raj will be a good husband and worth meeting halfway, so to speak). It was the way she did it (a single showy gesture) and how well it worked on Raj, that I have a problem with.

[ams1001]

15 hours ago, mammaM said:

And to whoever mentioned it, Cinnamon is SO gonna be in the wedding. 

Ha! That was me. She'll have a fancier dress than the bride.

 

8 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I think Haley might be old enough to be a flower girl (although I could be wrong). Cinnamon is going to be part of the wedding in some way. 

Probably, but I'm pretty sure we'll never actually see the kids. (That's assuming they show Raj's wedding, should it happen.)

 

3 hours ago, SpiritSong said:

Maybe a great sex life is what keeps Penny and Leonard together. After all, Leslie Winkle did refer to him as "a magnificent beast."  ;-)

And there was the scene where they're lying in bed and Penny says "You really are a genius." (To which Leonard replies, "Not really; I googled how to do that.") (I remember it because they use it in ads for the reruns on My9 or whatever station they're on.)

[TigerLynx]

If either Raj or Anu were being forced, pressured or guilted into this, that would be a problem, but they are not.  Both Raj and Anu tried to find someone on their own, and it didn't work out.  This may not work out either, however, Raj went this route because he has failed horribly in his romantic relationships, and wanted to try something different.  Raj and Anu may not end up getting married, but this might lead Raj to realize that while an arranged marriage isn't for him, he does need to change the way he does things when he's dating because he keeps chasing off women he really liked, and who initially liked him.  In the past, Raj tried a few times to figure out what he was doing wrong, but then he reverted to type.

[Browncoat]

8 hours ago, nygma619 said:

Yes but nothing in Leonard's history shows he was adamant against it either. Even admitted children was something he wanted. It's part of why him accepting in the span of a day didn't feel earned to me.

He didn’t accept it.  He pretended to accept it, and called her father to whine, and get Dad to change Penny’s mind.

[nilyank]

I think that both Penny and Leonard probably assumed that they would have at least a kid or two. When this issue came up in this issue, I think Penny was sort of leaning into not having kids and Leonard was sort of leaning towards kids, but neither one was absolutely adamant that this would be a deal breaker.

I still don't know if Penny will change her mind. This is the same woman who broke up with Leonard when he told her that he loved her, took forever  to tell him that she loved him years later. And frankly, I think her not wanting to have kids sort of came up with her when envisioned living in a loft instead of a house with a yard. Like her dreams about becoming a star (not a working actress, but a star), she sees herself and her future in a certain way and it make take her a while to see a different future.

I don't know if Penny and Leonard will remain childless or change their mind and have a baby, but I think that they will work things out together and be happier afterwards.

I am also in favor for Raj and Anu. Sure she was a little strident with the waiter, but she was very direct but I don't remember her being insulting.

[CherryAmes]

3 hours ago, nilyank said:

And frankly, I think her not wanting to have kids sort of came up with her when envisioned living in a loft instead of a house with a yard.

I loved the way she responded to Leonard when he talked about wanting a house with a yard.  Leonard only goes outside to get in the car.  The idea that suddenly he sees himself mowing a lawn or standing over a barbecue is way more farfetched than the idea that Penny sees herself in a trendy loft in the city, childless!  I'm glad they didn't pursue the idea of any of the other couples buying the house next door to Bernie and Howard.  Way too contrived.

Edited October 6, 2018 by CherryAmes

[Winston Wolfe]

12 hours ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

13 hours ago, nygma619 said:

He was swept off her feet by her game saving gesture, not by Anu herself.

That's my point. It was a relatively easy if showy gesture. That's a very juvenile conception of what romance is. For all of Raj's flaws, I thought his ideas of what romance is and why he craves it were more sophisticated than that. I thought wrong, apparently.

Or, maybe the not-so-sudden realization of dying alone (a terrible thought, actually) made Raj temper his romantic idealism a bit.  It happens as some folks grow older.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Winston Wolfe

[TigerLynx]

4 hours ago, Browncoat said:

He didn’t accept it.  He pretended to accept it, and called her father to whine, and get Dad to change Penny’s mind.

Penny's flip flopping and Leonard's passive aggressiveness is another reason they shouldn't have children.  It's one thing to do that to a partner who chooses to be with you.  It's another thing all together to put children who have no choice in the position of having to deal with it.  At least, Howard and Bernadette and Sheldon and Amy communicate with each other.  It took a while to get them to that place, but they all still communicate better than Penny and Leonard do.

5 minutes ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Or, maybe the not-so-sudden realization of dying alone (a terrible thought, actually) made Raj temper his idealistic romanticism a bit.  It happens as some folks grow older.

Anu said something along the same lines to.  Both Raj and Anu mentioned not wanting their parents to set them up with people in the past, but as time has gone on, they've changed their mind about that.  Anu told Raj, "I know what you mean.  I'm 34, and I thought I would be in a different place relationship wise," or something like that.  It's easy to have big romantic dreams when you are a teenager or twenty something.  As time passes, you realize it takes more than that to make a relationship work, but may not know how to go about accomplishing it.  So Raj turned to his father for help.  In a way it's similar to what Howard and Raj did to Sheldon, only Raj requested help, and Sheldon didn't.  When Sheldon first went to meet Amy, Howard and Raj blackmailed him into it with a dirty sock, and Amy was doing it because she had agreed with her mother to date at least once a year.  Slowly, Sheldon and Amy became a couple, until Sheldon actually got to the place where when Amy broke up with him and was dating other people, Sheldon thought he would move on, talked to Leonard and Penny, and realized he wanted to get back together with Amy.  Sheldon attributed it to Leonard and Penny's advice, but in reality it was Sheldon who talked himself into it.

[nygma619]

4 hours ago, Browncoat said:

He didn’t accept it.  He pretended to accept it, and called her father to whine, and get Dad to change Penny’s mind.

That's not how that played out to me.

Her dad calling was a result of him still processing it so he called him. After he called him he seemed to process it.

[nygma619]

31 minutes ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Or, maybe the not-so-sudden realization of dying alone (a terrible thought, actually) made Raj temper his romantic idealism a bit.  It happens as some folks grow older.

Except Raj has "tempered his romantic idealism" before in the series. Such as with Emily in the season 8 finale.

I see no reason to think he won't walk back against someone he has no chemistry with.

[CherryAmes]

4 minutes ago, nygma619 said:

Her dad calling was a result of him still processing it so he called him. After he called him he seemed to process it.

You definitely get the feeling that Penny and Leonard only really talked just prior to her Dad calling.  He had flounced out of the apartment when the discussion first came up and everytime they showed him after he was sulky.  I didn't see any indication that he had accepted that they would not have children.  More, perhaps, that he accepted that Penny had the final say and he wasn't happy about that.  But what was interesting is that they showed Penny talking to Bernie and realizing that having babies was hard work which confirmed her own feelings, but they didn't show Leonard with children and being wistful about what he would miss out on.  I think the show was not so subtley showing us that having real children was never something that Leonard dreamed about, it was always that hypothetical one day child.

[Miss Dee]

My two cents: I liked Anu quite a bit. Her willingness to bend her no-nonsense position and propose to the guy who was longing for romance was the clincher for me.

Raj is a straight guy whose personality hits a lot of stereotypical "feminine" traits. It makes sense that a compatible woman for him would hit a lot of "masculine" traits in contrast, and that might be precisely what he needs. Aside from his money mismanagement - and obviously she'd be a great help there if he's willing to be guided by her in that - most of Raj being an asshole is when he tries to be a typical "guy" in relationships, because that's not natural to him. Admitting that he rather likes being "feminine" and owning it in his love life might be the growth catalyst he needs, and Anu could be the reason that happens.

I'm also excited at the prospect of an arranged marriage being portrayed in a positive light. I think it's just as successful a method of finding a life partner as any other, *if* 1) the parents truly see and know and love their children as they are (not as they'd like them to be), and 2) the parents' first and greatest factor in picking a suitable marriage is compatability with their child/ensuring there are no red flags.

I started dating my now-husband after five years of friendship (he was with someone else at the time), and after we got married my dad told me that, upon meeting him for the first time for about an hour early into our friendship (he was with his then-fiancee), he looked at my mother once we were all out of earshot and said, "I have no idea how or even if it's going to happen...but I'm telling you, that was Miss Dee's husband who just sat on our couch." So all things being equal, apparently I can trust my dad to pick out suitable mates for me.

[nygma619]

1 minute ago, CherryAmes said:

I think the show was not so subtley showing us that having real children was never something that Leonard dreamed about, it was always that hypothetical one day child.

I might agree with you that Leonard hadn't dreamed about it, had season 11 not revealed he picked out the name "Elliot" and sat on it for years. So he's dreamed about it.

But I agree with you that Penny's pushback on this feels more like the result of her being reminded of the negatives of Howardette's kids and being nagged about it 

Compare this to the Positive Negative Reaction where when Penny was asked about kids she said "yeah" after recently being reminded of the joy of a kid being on the way.

It honestly feels like Penny hasn't put alot of thought into her decision and is more a reaction to people around her.

[AnnaRose]

26 minutes ago, Miss Dee said:

My two cents: I liked Anu quite a bit. Her willingness to bend her no-nonsense position and propose to the guy who was longing for romance was the clincher for me.

Raj is a straight guy whose personality hits a lot of stereotypical "feminine" traits. It makes sense that a compatible woman for him would hit a lot of "masculine" traits in contrast, and that might be precisely what he needs. Aside from his money mismanagement - and obviously she'd be a great help there if he's willing to be guided by her in that - most of Raj being an asshole is when he tries to be a typical "guy" in relationships, because that's not natural to him. Admitting that he rather likes being "feminine" and owning it in his love life might be the growth catalyst he needs, and Anu could be the reason that happens.

I'm also excited at the prospect of an arranged marriage being portrayed in a positive light. I think it's just as successful a method of finding a life partner as any other, *if* 1) the parents truly see and know and love their children as they are (not as they'd like them to be), and 2) the parents' first and greatest factor in picking a suitable marriage is compatability with their child/ensuring there are no red flags.

I started dating my now-husband after five years of friendship (he was with someone else at the time), and after we got married my dad told me that, upon meeting him for the first time for about an hour early into our friendship (he was with his then-fiancee), he looked at my mother once we were all out of earshot and said, "I have no idea how or even if it's going to happen...but I'm telling you, that was Miss Dee's husband who just sat on our couch." So all things being equal, apparently I can trust my dad to pick out suitable mates for me.

Great post, and that is an excellent point about Raj being more feminine and needing a wife who has more masculine traits to balance him.  I know people and couples like that in real life.   And I much prefer that to the stereotypical premise that just because Raj has some feminine traits and interests he has to be gay, even though he's only been interested in women romantically and sexually for the entire series.

Edited October 6, 2018 by AnnaRose

[CherryAmes]

2 hours ago, nygma619 said:

It honestly feels like Penny hasn't put alot of thought into her decision and is more a reaction to people around her.

To me it came across more as having kids "one day" was something Penny probably assumed she'd get around to do doing but when push finally came to shove she realized that she didn't see her life with kids after all.  I get that.  I think a lot of people, men and women, just assume that kids will be part of the picture down the road.  Then they hit their 30s and either the biological clock goes into overdrive or they realize, like Penny did, that they like things the way they are and don't want kids.  And kudos to them!  It's  not selfish and no matter what your own parents may say it's none of their business!

[BlossomCulp]

15 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I think Penny declaring to Amy that she just wants to be the "fun aunt" sets the stage for Penny not reversing this decision to abstain from procreation.

I think every child should grow up with a "fun aunt".  I sure did and it was awesome to have a grown up spoil me and be happy to hang out with me and take me places, just us girls!  If Bernie and Amy really think about it having someone in their lives willing to dote on their children is going to be of way more value to them then yet another friend wrapped up in parenting her own children!

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

I'm also excited at the prospect of an arranged marriage being portrayed in a positive light. I think it's just as successful a method of finding a life partner as any other, *if* 1) the parents truly see and know and love their children as they are (not as they'd like them to be), and 2) the parents' first and greatest factor in picking a suitable marriage is compatability with their child/ensuring there are no red flags.

I started dating my now-husband after five years of friendship (he was with someone else at the time), and after we got married my dad told me that, upon meeting him for the first time for about an hour early into our friendship (he was with his then-fiancee), he looked at my mother once we were all out of earshot and said, "I have no idea how or even if it's going to happen...but I'm telling you, that was Miss Dee's husband who just sat on our couch." So all things being equal, apparently I can trust my dad to pick out suitable mates for me.

Awww. I'd want to read the book or see the show/movie based on your relationship, but they'd probably ruin it. This post is just perfect.

[hnygrl]

I like Anu. I always thought Rajesh needed a needy woman to spoil and pamper but I'll admit I was dead wrong and y'all were right. He's got a woman with her feet firmly planted on the ground, who is practical sensible, and in dire need of a little Wimsey in her life. She can keep him grounded and he can help her fly. In my imagination, I see Raj flying high in the sky with Anu holding a string tied to his ankle, making sure he doesn't go too far.

Daddy knows his kid. I like it.

I agree those two should've discussed kids before marriage but Leonard being Leonard, and Penny being Penny? That was never gonna happen. They love and appreciate each other, especially after the last break up, but they were (pre-marriage) still too scared of losing each other to be honest with each other, and Leonard being the way he is about Penny (loves her to the exclusion of all else) would've married her regardless.

I think this is the firs time I've actually LIKED Penny. She doesn't hate kids, just doesn't want any herself. "I'll be their cool Aunt Penny"

I think they'll be okay. I just want them both to see some success before this ends.

 

AND I STILL WANT AMY  to win the Nobel, not Sheldon. And I want Sheldon to be inordinately PROUD of her. 

*and I want him to be a stay-at-home-dad* *don't laugh* *too hard*

Edited October 6, 2018 by hnygrl

[Sarah 103]

22 hours ago, nygma619 said:

The Honeymooners, Green Acres, I Dream Of Jeanie, Will & Grace & Newhart would like a word with you.

(So it only counts as representation if we like it? That's a pretty shallow interpretation.)

So characters being flawed, saying something shallow & from a narrow minded point of view is unheard of?

Interesting you mention The Honeymooners (but all of the others totally work with your point about not all women wanting children). When I was watching The Honeymooners in college, in one episode they say how long they had been married for and with my roommate's help was able to do the math. (I am horrible at math). Ralph and Alice married during the Great Depression and may have decided to wait to have children until they were in a better situation financially (it's before the pill but there were other methods and they could have been lucky). World War II kept them apart for a number of years.  Ralph and Alice may have wanted children, but between the Depression and WWII, by the time they were ready to have children, she would have been too old and adoption was much more difficult and less accepted in that era than it is today.

[TigerLynx]

I think some of this Penny not wanting children, Leonard does, is just the writers wanting to give Penny and Leonard conflict for the final season.  There was a scene were Sheldon made a comment about Leonard and Penny, and Leonard replies, "Penny didn't settle, I married up," and Penny grins.  It seemed they had realized and accepted they were very different, weren't who other people expected them to be married to, and were okay with that.  So I won't be at all surprised if Penny's father or someone else persuades Penny she really does want children after all even though there is nothing wrong with someone not wanting to have children.  This is sitcom land and that's what happens.  Other things that happen in sitcom land:

Debra marries Ray, and stays married to him.

Ross and Rachel can't make it work for years, and reunite in the last episode.

I have no words for the mess that was Ted/Robin/Barney.

I think Cheers got it right with Diane and Sam.

Edited October 6, 2018 by TigerLynx

[rmontro]

I hate to think that they are going to do a Penny and Leonard have a baby story, but I'm afraid they are going to do it to bookend the first episode.  The one where Leonard says "Our children will be both smart AND beautiful".  Ugh.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

3 hours ago, rmontro said:

I hate to think that they are going to do a Penny and Leonard have a baby story, but I'm afraid they are going to do it to bookend the first episode.  The one where Leonard says "Our children will be both smart AND beautiful".  Ugh.

Sheldon DOES point out that they will also be imaginary, so maybe childless Leonard and Penny would bear that out. 

[Tosia]

On 10/4/2018 at 7:23 PM, mammaM said:

I've always had a problem with Leonard and Penny and I blame lazy/bad writing on the show's part. They never knew what to do with L and P after they got the two of them together. The show's original concept was opposites attract so the show made them as opposite as possible but after 12 years and little to no change, well, you end up with the mess that was this episode.

 

And I know I'm the minority but I like the maybe future Mrs. Raj. I didn't like this storyline when it was brought up last week, but the she's smart and she's pretty much figured out Raj. And since she proposed this will let Raj go all Bridezilla over the wedding....and I might be back to not liking this again

Yes on L & P being blah after they got together.  

Why can't they go to Plan B ( no pun intended), i.e., OK, so we don't have kids,  whatnow?   Then let's live our best life together....travel, take dancing/cooking/whatever classes,  join clubs, get a pet or not, see Broadway shows,  etc....  Leonard got his bat mobile experience; what does Penny want?  

What are their goals or hobbies or dreams aside from acting jobs, sci fi, or science stuff?  We don't know.  Writers needed to work on character development,  and it's almost too late.

Raj?  Don't really care.  I didn't love the girl, but maybe she's smart/bold enough to give him space/license for the romantic bits and bobs that he craves. He's kind of the traditional girl in this situation,  no?  

One worry is her rudeness to the waiter,  and then she's says she's nice? 

Also, I noticed right away thatAnu's voice is kind of babyish like Bernadette's,  and she's a strong, outspoken woman like Bernadette. Is that a meme for the writers,  or a view of what  these wishy washy, kind of passive,  nerd men need on the show? 

Edited October 7, 2018 by Tosia

[Tosia]

20 hours ago, BlossomCulp said:

I think every child should grow up with a "fun aunt".  I sure did and it was awesome to have a grown up spoil me and be happy to hang out with me and take me places, just us girls!  If Bernie and Amy really think about it having someone in their lives willing to dote on their children is going to be of way more value to them then yet another friend wrapped up in parenting her own children!

I'm the fun aunt to a five nephews, and one great nephew, and it's is awesome!  I learn alot about boys'  ways of thinking. 

I have one son and wish I had started earlier to have more kids,  but I wanted to have a single life first, with my partner.

It's kind of trope, but maybe they should have an ep with Leonard watching Howard's kids  OR  a heart-to-heart with Howard about the father role: fears for his kids safety, whether he's doing the right things, the future environment for them,  $, his mom's influence, i.e., all the heavy stuff underneath the day-to-day bathing, feeding caring for kids. 

[CherryAmes]

On 10/5/2018 at 2:56 PM, BlossomCulp said:

My husband is into stuff I have ZERO interest in and I am somewhat like Penny in that I tolerate them but I sure as hell don't share them!  Further he's an engineer who is that guy, you all know the one, he read a book in high school that one time.  I'm a librarian.  I guess when people go on about "what do they talk about" I find it funny, and a little annoying.  We share very few common interests on one level and yet we always manage to find something to talk about!

My husband is an engineer as well (or as Sheldon describes it he is an Oompa Loompa of Science) and we're the same way in the sense that at least in terms of our career paths and hobbies we are very different people.  I'd hate to think though that outsiders are assuming we have nothing in common and should never have gotten together!  Like you I guess this is one reason I get a little defensive about Leonard and Penny!  Do people really think that for a couple to really work as a couple they need to share similar careers and ride tandem bikes on the week-end?  So not my marriage :).

Anyway with regard to the Great Baby Debate at least they didn't go back to the last episode and make this all about Leonard being afraid of Penny.  They could have gone there and they didn't so huzzah for that anyway.  Leonard let Penny know how he felt, perhaps not very maturely but he did do it. and she accepted his right to his feelings while not letting that change her mind.  Which I think is a good thing and I hope they keep that attitude going. 

[Driad]

6 hours ago, rmontro said:

Leonard says "Our children will be both smart AND beautiful".  Ugh.

This always reminds me of a George Bernard Shaw story. A lady told him, "We should have a child, so it would have my beauty and your brain."  Shaw replied, "But what if it has my beauty and your brain?"

[msrachelj]

On 10/4/2018 at 8:43 PM, Frost said:

Ugh.  Why on earth did they resurrect "no boundaries" Amy?  Rubbing Vitamin E on each other perineums?  Breast feeding each other's babies?  WTH?  I did like Amy counting on Penny and Leonard's kids to be her kids' friends.  

The entire Anu story line is horrible.  

so friggin disgusting. like who would actually do that. barf!

[DrSpaceman73]

I assume this means Penny will end up pregnant in the next few episodes. 

That Raj storyline, just so bad.  I hope they don't end up together. 

[Katy M]

On ‎10‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 6:29 AM, Browncoat said:

He didn’t accept it.  He pretended to accept it, and called her father to whine, and get Dad to change Penny’s mind.

I think he called her father and then accepted it. I'm not excusing calling her father, I'm just saying that the timeline might not be as manipulative.

[SmithW6079]

Amy may have had this in mind:

Quote

Mothers who nurse each other's babies are engaging in a reciprocal act known as cross-nursing or co-nursing.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_nurse

[Sarah 103]

14 hours ago, Tosia said:

It's kind of trope, but maybe they should have an ep with Leonard watching Howard's kids  OR  a heart-to-heart with Howard about the father role: fears for his kids safety, whether he's doing the right things, the future environment for them,  $, his mom's influence, i.e., all the heavy stuff underneath the day-to-day bathing, feeding caring for kids. 

It's a trope, but why not? It could be a fun episode. Maybe there's a work thing Penny and Bernadette are going to so Howard has to watch the kids for an afternoon and Leonard agrees to help. Stuart can't do it because he has plans with his girlfriend. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 10/4/2018 at 9:00 PM, Katy M said:

They shouldn't be.  There are loads of couples who have both wanted children, assumed that they were going to have children, but couldn't get pregnant, and their marriages don't always fall apart. 

But then they are on the same page.  They both want the same thing, can't have it, perhaps mourn together, and move on.

On 10/4/2018 at 9:52 PM, AuntieL said:

The thing is Leonard wasn't terribly adamant about it. He said he'd always assumed that he would have kids. That's different than kids being a deal breaker. 

 

On 10/4/2018 at 10:14 PM, Frost said:

Maybe, but Leonard's face sure lit up when he thought Penny was announcing that she was pregnant.

Leonard was so excited at the thought of Penny being pregnant; he clearly wants kids.  He's just resigned to it being another "thing" he can't have.  One day in a rented Batmobile does not make up for a future with kids, if that's what he truly wants.

On 10/7/2018 at 10:43 PM, SmithW6079 said:

Amy may have had this in mind:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_nurse

It would certainly make it easier if one of them was watching both kids, the other baby was hungry, and there were no pumped milk from the other mom.

[Katy M]

6 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

One day in a rented Batmobile does not make up for a future with kids, if that's what he truly wants.

But a lifetime with Penny does if that's what he truly wants.  And if that isn't what he truly wants, then they shouldn't have kids anyway even if they both want them.

[CherryAmes]

11 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Leonard was so excited at the thought of Penny being pregnant; he clearly wants kids.  He's just resigned to it being another "thing" he can't have.  One day in a rented Batmobile does not make up for a future with kids, if that's what he truly wants.

He was excited but that doesn't mean he will be mourning no children the rest of his life.  It's a subject that has barely ever come up and there have been just as many times when Leonard has been glad he doesn't have kids (the episode when Howard says he having a baby has Leonard and the other guys seriously contemplating vasectomies as one instance) as there have been times it's come up as a want to have.  At the end of the day it's a sitcom and the characters are going to feel whatever the writers want them to in any given episode but my feeling about Leonard and Penny and children is that it's something both of them assumed would happen some day - and now that they feel it's something they actually have to decide on the subject is now over.  I'll be surprised if it comes up again but with it being the last season who knows.

Edited October 9, 2018 by CherryAmes

[proserpina65]

On ‎10‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 7:23 PM, nygma619 said:

The Honeymooners, Green Acres, I Dream Of Jeanie, Will & Grace & Newhart would like a word with you.

(So it only counts as representation if we like it? That's a pretty shallow interpretation.)

Did the issue of children ever come up on any of them?  (I'm honestly asking, as I haven't watched most of these shows.)

Edited to note: Didn't Grace end up having a baby?  Or are you talking about the reboot which made the husband and baby both vanish?  (I never watched the show, but it was hard to avoid press about it.) 

Edited October 9, 2018 by proserpina65

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Did the issue of children ever come up on any of them?  (I'm honestly asking, as I haven't watched most of these shows.)

I feel like the couples on The Honeymooners, Green Acres and Newhart were really too old to have children at the beginning of their shows.  So, maybe pre-series they talked aobut it and decided not to have children, or there were fertility problems.  Will & Grace weren't married, or romantically involved.  I Dream of Jeannie was a different species, so procreation may not even have been possible.

[CherryAmes]

I know on the Bob Newhart Show  he was very opposed to introducing a baby onto the show but at some point they did write Emily as pregnant.  But by the start of the next season it was dropped completely with IIRC no explanation.  

Edited October 9, 2018 by CherryAmes

[proserpina65]

On ‎10‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 6:37 AM, nilyank said:

I am also in favor for Raj and Anu. Sure she was a little strident with the waiter, but she was very direct but I don't remember her being insulting.

She was more than strident with the waiter.  She was an outright bully to him.

[CherryAmes]

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I Dream of Jeannie was a different species, so procreation may not even have been possible.

There was at least one or two dream episodes where they have them with a child or two so I think theoretically they were able to have children.  On the show though they were only married for a season or two so having kids wasn't really in the game plan.  I don't recall them ever saying they weren't going to have them so this one's probably not a good example of a couple deciding never to have kids.  There was a TV movie made years later where Jeannie and Tony do have at least one child BTW.

Edited October 9, 2018 by CherryAmes

[chitowngirl]

Will and Grace were going to have a child together, and then Grace met Leo.