S04.E11: I'm Almost Over You

[dubbel zout]

WHAT IS LOVE — Rebecca (Rachel Bloom) tries to stick to her plan for happiness while Nathaniel (Scott Michael Foster) and Maya (guest star Esther Povitsky) bond over their feelings of unrequited love.

[Spartan Girl]

Loved the skewering of all the rom-com tropes. And I'm glad that Nathaniel finally stopped playing the victim with his self-proclaiming Nice Guy act and realized that he wanted Rebecca to be happy.

[SomeTameGazelle]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Loved the skewering of all the rom-com tropes. And I'm glad that Nathaniel finally stopped playing the victim with his self-proclaiming Nice Guy act and realized that he wanted Rebecca to be happy.

I was very entertained by the rom-com versions of Greg and Rebecca (oh, and Burt). And I liked Nathaniel with the pizza guy at the end. I wish they had left it there because the scene where he explicitly told Rebecca about his breakthrough felt ambiguous to me -- we have too many episodes left for me to be confident that this is truly the end of Nathaniel and Rebecca.

I felt like Marcy should have been Other Rebecca.

Also slightly bitter about the karaoke song because it makes me feel judged for A Life Less Ordinary.

Edited January 26, 2019 by SomeTameGazelle
Afterthoughts.

[driver18]

20 minutes ago, SomeTameGazelle said:

 I wish they had left it there because the scene where he explicitly told Rebecca about his breakthrough felt ambiguous to me -- we have too many episodes left for me to be confident that this is truly the end of Nathaniel and Rebecca.

I'm 99.9% it's NOT truly the end of Nathaniel and Rebecca at all. And I don't think there was anything ambiguous about his breakthrough. He wanted Rebecca to be happy. That was his breakthrough. If that meant moving on and letting her go because she was happy, he was going to do that. So he was letting her go. The fact that there are so many episodes left (and that Rebecca and Greg are getting barely any development despite getting back together and haven't actually talked about their real issues) makes it pretty clear that Nathaniel and Rebecca are more than likely the endgame couple here.

Nathaniel has issues just as Rebecca did, but they weren't even remotely as severe as hers. I think that we're just seeing this season him work through his at a much fast pace so that by the end, they'll be healthy together.

[taragel]

This is one of my favorite episodes they've done. Loved the romcom trope skewering (and though it was really fun that they poked at Devil Wears Prada since Aline wrote that one). 

I was thinking that it's impressive how much more central Rebecca's (former) coworkers have become to the story. Who would've thought George and Maya would be such key players back in the early days?

[suzyq8017]

No way they work this hard to make us love Nathaniel this much and he’s not endgame. Surely. 

Im gonna really miss this show when it’s gone. Such an original.  

[SomeTameGazelle]

12 hours ago, driver18 said:

I'm 99.9% it's NOT truly the end of Nathaniel and Rebecca at all. And I don't think there was anything ambiguous about his breakthrough. He wanted Rebecca to be happy. That was his breakthrough. If that meant moving on and letting her go because she was happy, he was going to do that. So he was letting her go. The fact that there are so many episodes left (and that Rebecca and Greg are getting barely any development despite getting back together and haven't actually talked about their real issues) makes it pretty clear that Nathaniel and Rebecca are more than likely the endgame couple here.

Nathaniel has issues just as Rebecca did, but they weren't even remotely as severe as hers. I think that we're just seeing this season him work through his at a much fast pace so that by the end, they'll be healthy together.

When I said ambiguous it was about my bias -- I agree his breakthrough was not itself ambiguous. But I wanted it to be a breakthrough that finally ended the question of whether or not Nathaniel is "endgame". I thought the rom-com was a clever way to give Nathaniel some focus without insisting that he is also Rebecca's focus. By having him rush to tell Rebecca about it that keeps him on the table.

I don't know what I want for the endgame. There are still 7 episodes left and I am skeptical that they can bring me around to appreciate any conventional monogamous happily ever after, especially with any of Nathaniel, Greg, or Josh. I'd rather end with Rebecca where she is now -- being happy to see where the renewed relationship with Greg might go without being close to 100% certain that it is right for forever. Maybe they will prove me wrong and wrap up with something satisfying, but at the moment Nathaniel as Rebecca's One True Love would not be that for me.

[betha]

Favorite episode. That was fantastic!!

[AmandaPanda]

I adored this episode. Nathaniel's breakthrough while he was talking to the pizza guy reduced me to tears. SMF did so great with that scene and gave Nathaniel an emotional depth he hasn't really had before. At this point, I'm fine with Greg or Nathaniel as endgame. I love both of them with Rebecca. I think I'd like to see a somewhat ambiguous ending. I don't think they need to definitively say that Rebecca is in a forever relationship with a proposal or wedding. I just want to see her happy in a relationship. I used to think I'd be okay with her being alone at the end, but I'd like to see her realizing that she deserves love and can accept it from another person. 

[Irlandesa]

This was probably Scott Michael Foster's best ep on Crazy Ex-Girlfriend. 

But the show cares way more about Nathaniel than I do. I can't recall any other character, other than Rebecca, that had a full episode dedicated to their POV.

I do find it kind of funny that this whole subversion of romcom tropes episode came out about 2 or 3 weeks before Isn't It Romantic.

[willowk]

Loved, loved Nathaniel's trip into Rom-com land, and the curveball the show threw by having him realize he needed to let go of Rebecca instead of the usual happy ending rom-coms have. As Nathaniel boarded the elevator after telling Rebecca about his extended daydream and realization, for the first time I felt that Nathaniel is too good for Rebecca, and I won't be unhappy if they end up apart -an odd feeling as I've been shipping them since the two first got together. Anyway, really enjoyed the episode, and while at first I didn't like that they are focusing on other characters more than Rebecca for much of the season, I'm okay with it now -they all deserve to be celebrated and their stories told. Brava to all!

[BonnieD]

Loved it all but laughed especially hard during the montage work session. When Nathaniel held up a pic of a turtle, then a frog, I howled with laughter. They were really preparing hard for THe Big Presentation!

Quote

Also slightly bitter about the karaoke song because it makes me feel judged for A Life Less Ordinary.

And in 500 Days of Summer, although that wasn't exactly rom com. And probably other movies I can think of right now.

I truly believe there is no "end game" couple. The whole point is that Rebecca needs to be on her own for a good long time. She's in no way ready for any sort of "happily ever after" except with herself. She has way too much work to do to accept and love herself.

[Eolivet]

I loved that so much, including Gratuitous Karaoke Moment ("in ten years you'll realize, this scene doesn't hold up"). The ending was interesting, because while Nathaniel "woke up" from his "starring" in a rom-com, there were scenes very reminiscent of rom-coms: the revelation in front of a stranger, the awkward, but sincere conversation about wanting the person to be happy, which usually triggers some kind of emotional revelation from the person later on. I feel like I've been incepted a bit, but I feel like this rom-com isn't done yet.

(I'm sure they cut for time the scene where Nathaniel is grudgingly introduced to Maya's odd art, and is startled by how much it humanizes and softens her persona, and he starts to feel as though maybe he's misjudged her)

Is it my imagination or did madeover!Maya even wear Rebecca-type clothes? The magenta dress and business suit at the end seemed Rebecca-esque. Not sure if that was intentional.

[lavenderblue]

Well, definitely feeling out of step on this one, because I was bored and kind of hated it. However, I'm also not much of a rom-com fan and I think that was pretty essential to fully enjoying the comedy here (though I did recognize the tropes). More crucial is probably that I'm not very into Nathaniel or Maya as characters, and I'm not into the possibility of Rebecca with either Nathaniel or Greg. Where some have felt other eps were treading water, this is the first that really felt that way for me for much of the hour.

Edited January 26, 2019 by lavenderblue
Because I'm so not into one character I accidentally called her by the actress's name, lol.

[geauxaway]

I got a kick out of this episode.  Greg with the 2 shoulder sweaters at the end made me laugh out loud harder than it should have.

I had fun trying to decide which movies they were spoofing.  

I miss Heather, tho!  I feel like she hasn’t been in many episodes recently.  

[dubbel zout]

18 hours ago, SomeTameGazelle said:

I felt like Marcy should have been Other Rebecca.

Her voice was very funny. I wonder if the actor did that herself or it was tweaked in post.

There was no title song, right?

[tennisgurl]

Oh my God, the Devil Wears Prada spoof! That was freaking spot on! So many great parody moments, mixed with a big character moment at the end, I thought it was a great episode. I have no idea if this is really the end of Rebecca/Nathaniel, but I dont really ship Rebecca with anyone, in the conventional way. I think her best bet is Greg, who knows her history and understands her, but I really just ship Rebecca with self acceptance. I dont know if now is a good time for her to be in a serious romance, when she is still working so hard on herself, so if she and Greg are giving it a casual try, while they both also focus on moving past their previous personal issues, I think that would be a good place for her journey to end. 

So many great, spot on moments! The vaugly defined Big Presentation, the black co-worker who does nothing but give exposition to the main characters, the best friend who only cares about sports and the main characters love life, the pointless karaoke duet, Rebecca and her perfect hair and "bad" acting, and Greg becoming increasing douchy in every scene. His sweater over the other sweaters! And his boat being called "The Greg". 

I missed seeing the rest of the cast, but I think this episode fits in really well with the overall theme, that while pop culture and movies and TV can be great for finding ways to express yourself to look at things different, your life is NOT a TV show or a movie, and expecting it to can mess you up. Like Josh Groban told us, life isnt a well crafted story, each one of us thinks we have the starring role, but in someones elses story, we could be a backup character or the guy who didnt get the girl or the unreasonably attractive girl. Real life isnt like a romantic comedy, which Rebecca has had to learn more than once. 

Tree Frogs!

Edited January 26, 2019 by tennisgurl

[angora]

I had a good time.  So many great details:  everyone talking vaguely about The Big Presentation that Paula was super invested in, George just randomly throwing words like “baseball!” and “hockey!” into his dialogue (it reminded me of the interludes in Ping-Pong Girl - “Sega!  Jock itch!”,) Nathaniel’s contacts unexpectedly showing up in the dressing room during the makeover scene, douchey Greg.  I loved Tim’s overdramatic subplot, missing his mom’s birthday and his dad’s operation trying to please Bert.  I laughed every time Maya mentioned her dead mom and Jim popped in just to deliver some exposition - the last time, at the restaurant, when Nathaniel turned to ask a follow-up question and he’d already disappeared?  OMG, I died.

[dingochick]

I have really enjoyed seeing Nathaniel develop as a character, I am already missing this show, can’t believe it’s almost done. I kind of hope Rebecca does end up with Nathaniel, but that is partially because how I like the depth of change his character has gone through, and how she has been the catalyst for much of it.  The scene at his parents’ house, etc., but whatever happens I am sure I’ll be left wanting more. So glad this program gets to finish on its own terms. 

[DianeDobbler]

I really enjoyed this, mostly because I loved the rom com of Maya/Nathaniel straight up as well as the rom com with the jokes and lampshades. And I enjoyed Rebecca's bitch faces and jealous "Babes" and stammering. AND Donna Lynn Champlin's every line reading.

SMF was very good in this, but it reminds me the actual Nathaniel/Rebecca relationship bored me to tears, and they never developed his character. They've done a better job using Rebecca/Nathaniel as a sort of Proustian madeleine that lets us in to Nathaniel's inner life. They can't really evoke the actual relationship since it was one plot contrivance after the other. I never thought they belonged together. They had similar status and that is it. Temperment, taste, attitude, personality - a complete clash. It doesn't ying and yang for me either. I thought Fantasy Maya, with her unflappable demeanor, worked with him and relaxed him much more.

I never liked Greg, but the CXG writers seem to find it very easy to write for him. Almost write TOO much for him. However, Astin's Greg, while funny and kind, seems a little basic vis a vis Rebecca. Still, I think what she needs is someone easygoing, fundamentally emotionally generous, and accepting. On the current canvas, that fits Greg (can't believe I'm saying that), Josh, and Jason.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

As someone who has watched a lot of romantic comedies, I totally appreciated all the cliches typical rom-com storylines that they covered. If only they'd had Maya in overalls and a ponytail before the makeover!

And as stereotypical as it is, I'm glad that Nathaniel realized that he just wanted Rebecca to be happy. That doesn't mean he will immediately stop having feelings for her, but at least he will stop obsessing about how to get her back.

I also felt bad for Nathaniel that he'd had such an intense dream about Maya and then she was the same old Maya when he saw her the next day. Even though he knew it was a dream, it was still a little bit of a loss for him emotionally.

[Yeah No]

On 1/26/2019 at 12:18 AM, driver18 said:

I'm 99.9% it's NOT truly the end of Nathaniel and Rebecca at all. And I don't think there was anything ambiguous about his breakthrough. He wanted Rebecca to be happy. That was his breakthrough. If that meant moving on and letting her go because she was happy, he was going to do that. So he was letting her go. The fact that there are so many episodes left (and that Rebecca and Greg are getting barely any development despite getting back together and haven't actually talked about their real issues) makes it pretty clear that Nathaniel and Rebecca are more than likely the endgame couple here.

I think the show is setting us up to really believe that Nathaniel is truly endgame for Rebecca.  "If you love someone let them go, if they come back to you they're yours" is such a stereotypical trope, but it does work.  That more than anything will make Rebecca turn around on him.  Plus, the show is almost looking like it's deliberately making a caricature out of her relationship with new Greg.  There's no depth nor chemistry there at all.  New Greg does not even feel like a real person and the kissing in public thing seemed surface and almost juvenile.

[taragel]

21 hours ago, SomeTameGazelle said:

I don't know what I want for the endgame. There are still 7 episodes left and I am skeptical that they can bring me around to appreciate any conventional monogamous happily ever after, especially with any of Nathaniel, Greg, or Josh. I'd rather end with Rebecca where she is now -- being happy to see where the renewed relationship with Greg might go without being close to 100% certain that it is right for forever. Maybe they will prove me wrong and wrap up with something satisfying, but at the moment Nathaniel as Rebecca's One True Love would not be that for me.

I'm not sure what would work the best either, but the show has been so centered on her love life for so long (even after her diagnosis/recovery) that it would be a little unsatisfying not to wrap that up I think. I wonder if they'll do a flash forward to give Rebecca some romantic HEA?

[Trini]

So I'm one-quarter into this episode, and I had to check here (which I don't normally do) to see if this was really going to be all about Nathaniel.

::sigh::

I'll probably finish watching this later, because making fun of rom-com tropes sounds fun, but I've never liked Nathaniel, and I'm here for Rebecca mainly, so I'm already annoyed at this filler.

[Yeah No]

4 hours ago, taragel said:

I'm not sure what would work the best either, but the show has been so centered on her love life for so long (even after her diagnosis/recovery) that it would be a little unsatisfying not to wrap that up I think. I wonder if they'll do a flash forward to give Rebecca some romantic HEA?

I agree with this.  Especially because she started out as someone's crazy ex, for her to come to full recovery she would ideally end up being someone's sane present girlfriend or even fiancé.  Otherwise it's left dangling.  No matter how they spin the "I love me" stuff I would still find it unsatisfying if she ended up not involved with anyone.  They could do like what they did on "The Middle" where at the very end we see that Sue ends up marrying Sean in the future.  A lot of people said the same thing with that show, that Sue should end up alone, etc., but the show spent so much time centered on her love life and setting the audience up for her to end up with someone that it would have upset more people for her not to end up with anyone.

Edited January 27, 2019 by Yeah No

[Eeksquire]

For some reason, my DVR didn't grab this on Friday, so I had to wait until today.  I think it says a lot about this season that this episode was one of the highlights - and not something good.  I've always like Maya, but who knew that she and Nathaniel would be so much fun together? I just wish that the songs could return to the quality of the earlier seasons - the karaoke song was good, but not strong enough to be the only song in the episode.  I do think they were leaning pretty hard on Rebecca and Nathaniel at the end - Rebecca's "Uh, using pop culture to come to a conclusion about your own life? I can relate." (paraphrasing) line was a pretty big anvil in that direction.

[possibilities]

During his fantasy/dream/whatever, Nathanial seemed to be falling for Maya, though. So if he's that easily able to fall for someone else, having him suddenly ping pong back to being in love with Rebecca struck me as a sign that he's NOT necessarily truly in love with Rebecca. he's just in love with (1) being in love, and (2) having it be unrequited.

I don't know how I want them to end the show. But so far none of the options floated seem satisfying to me. I hope they have a good idea they haven't hinted for us yet.

Honestly, I liked Jason a lot. But I also applauded when he was not down for the melodrama. Not everyone gets sucked into the chaos and that's healthy!! Probably why I liked him, actually; he's quirky but not unhealthy. Everybody else's "quirks" have just been signs of how off balance they are.

[Trini]

51 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I agree with this.  Especially because she started out as someone's crazy ex, for her to come to full recovery she would ideally end up being someone's sane present girlfriend or even fiancé.  Otherwise it's left dangling.  No matter how they spin the "I love me" stuff I would still find it unsatisfying if she ended up not involved with anyone.

I'd prefer it if Rebecca didn't end up with anyone; if the choices are Josh, Greg, or Nathaniel. I'd be satisfied if she ends the show in a happy, healthy place, ready to move forward in life and love.

[DianeDobbler]

I'm here to point out that when you eliminate Greg, Nathaniel is not the only romantic end game option or Rebecca on the show. And I am expecting he (her roommate) will get his own big episode near the end. I do think it's obvious, just by how quickly they reunited romantically, that it's not going to be Greg. And I am also here to point out that it has been established repeatedly that Rebecca is currently attracted to her roommate. I would love to take bets, even virtual ones!!

I LOVED this episode, mostly because I really enjoyed how well Scott Michael Thomas and Esther Povitsky worked together. I enjoyed their two big events - the karoake, and the work-all-night. They were adorable. I felt a pang myself when Nathaniel broke out of his daydream, made a decision, and ran into the regular Maya with whom he has no bonding history. I am glad he hit that level of maturity where the "if you love someone let them go" comes into play. But basically I was enjoying this episode on the level of a romantic comedy, even though they were sending it up.I was all about Daydream Maya and Nathaniel falling in love, and I loved Rachel Bloom's bitch faces at the table in the bar. She has that jealous-ex-in-romantic comedy routine DOWN. Even though this episode was really a Scott Michael Thomas and then Esther Povitsky showcase, I thought it brought out wonderful performances from Donna Lynn Champlin and Burl Mosley in particular. And of course, I enjoyed Greg wearing sweaters over his linen blazer, and particularly when he wore two sweaters over it as he went to propose. 

I never cared about Rebecca and Nathaniel's relationship but I have always found that Scott Michael Thomas at least is a strong television actor and understands the humor and rhythms and absurdity of this show. In fact I've always thought that was his strength. I thought this episode was his best performance in its combination of hilarious and absolutely genuine. He was really inspired and three dimensional. This was the first time I really believed in his being emotionally affected by the break-up. He sold it in a way I don't see when his character is actually PRESENT with the person (Rebecca) who supposedly broke his heart.

My guesses about the remaining episodes start with my perception that Rebecca's real story is already over. She's a grounded, healthy, mature, self-aware woman who knows how to take care of herself. By the glamorous way Rebetzals looked even outside of Nathaniel's fantasy, it seems to be doing well so I'm not anticipating an on-screen career move. All that's left is her love life, but I think it's obvious that she'll be fine. If it's not Greg, or one of the other two, she'll date and she'll find someone, and that will be the one that works out. We don't really know what her ambitions are.

And I think the rest of the main characters will also get happy endings. I think her close female friend group is pretty much set in that regard. Paula's marriage seems solid, she's a lawyer, she's not stuck being a drudge at home. She's going to be a happy semi-empty nester who can enjoy her life.

For the others, I think Darryl is in a good place. He's basically in love with his kids. He'll date, but finding The One before the end of the series isn't necessary. He has a good relationship with his ex; the firm seems to be doing well. 

Nathaniel needed to move on while there were still a sufficient number of episodes remaining for the audience to see him living it and actually over Rebecca, not just nobly letting her go. 

What I expect from Greg and Rebecca is they will both realize it's kind of "eh" with them being a couple, and it won't break either of their hearts and they will give up the idea while remaining great and supportive friends. Without Rebecca being a bitter memory in his past anymore, Greg's story is done. He's a nice guy, he got the chance to see if he and Rebecca could really be The One for each other in an on the level way, and we'll know that now he'll probably find someone else in no time (just like Rebecca now would if all her current options didn't exist).

For Josh, I think I know what the emotional arc is going to be but I have no idea what sort of story or plot will trigger it, but he'll also be resolved/defined in a happy way. I also have no idea what kind of time will pass between now and the end. This past episode seemed to happen only a couple of days after Greg and Rebecca babysat Hebecca.

Don't know if there's more Naomi to come, but having Elaine Boozler show up for her award evening and get to rub it in the face of the Levines, plus her daughter setting firm new boundaries while still wanting a relationship with her seems like a nice wrap up for her.

Edited January 28, 2019 by DianeDobbler

[Irlandesa]

On 1/26/2019 at 2:57 PM, Eolivet said:

I feel like I've been incepted a bit, but I feel like this rom-com isn't done yet.

I guess that begs the question--is this show a romcom? 

Honestly, I don't know.  IIRC, I seem to remember TPTB behind this show talking about subverting romcom tropes. And this episode was basically all about that.  So would they then go all romcom traditional  of having Rebecca realizing she "chose" the wrong guy once Nathaniel backs off?  Even though, in spite of all the "growth" or "I'm a good person now!" spiel they've had coming out of Nathaniel, they continue to show evidence that Nathaniel doesn't really understand or know Rebecca. (i.e. she "hates" romcoms). 

But then again, this show also made a huge deal about casting an Asian Bro as the male lead/love interest for Rebecca and yet, they went out and created the Nathaniel character, gave him a lot of screen time and pushed Josh into the background. 

11 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Plus, the show is almost looking like it's deliberately making a caricature out of her relationship with new Greg.

Definitely in this episode but no one, except Nathaniel, was "real" in this episode.

[nilyank]

6 hours ago, possibilities said:

During his fantasy/dream/whatever, Nathanial seemed to be falling for Maya, though. So if he's that easily able to fall for someone else, having him suddenly ping pong back to being in love with Rebecca struck me as a sign that he's NOT necessarily truly in love with Rebecca. he's just in love with (1) being in love, and (2) having it be unrequited.

 

When he was confessing to Maya and she turned into Rebecca, I thought it was obvious that it wasn't  Maya at all but Rebecca because the memories he was talking about were the real ones that he shared with Rebecca.

[SomeTameGazelle]

21 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

Definitely in this episode but no one, except Nathaniel, was "real" in this episode.

That's true for the dream segments, which is where Rebecca and Greg were portrayed as villains, but the bit before the dream where they talked about taking things slowly and whether they should kiss in public was real. Dream Nathaniel was also straddling the line of reality -- I suppose emotionally he felt like the loser nerd character but that isn't normal reality either.

Skylar's Greg is so mild and smooth that I have a hard time feeling any Gregness. Dream Greg was nothing like Santino's Greg either but his assholishness made for a refreshing change and I enjoyed that.

[Irlandesa]

3 minutes ago, SomeTameGazelle said:

That's true for the dream segments, which is where Rebecca and Greg were portrayed as villains, but the bit before the dream where they talked about taking things slowly and whether they should kiss in public was real.

That's true but it was such a very small snippet of real and still mostly about Nathaniel since it was observed through his eyes.

[Yeah No]

32 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

That's true but it was such a very small snippet of real and still mostly about Nathaniel since it was observed through his eyes.

There was also a real bit at the very end where Rebecca and Greg were kissing in public again and not caring.

49 minutes ago, nilyank said:

When he was confessing to Maya and she turned into Rebecca, I thought it was obvious that it wasn't  Maya at all but Rebecca because the memories he was talking about were the real ones that he shared with Rebecca.

Yes, it was obvious, especially when the dream Maya looked confused about some of the stuff Nathaniel was mentioning to her, because it was stuff that only Rebecca would have remembered.

[quangtran]

18 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

But then again, this show also made a huge deal about casting an Asian Bro as the male lead/love interest for Rebecca and yet, they went out and created the Nathaniel character, gave him a lot of screen time and pushed Josh into the background.

Nathaniel was given a lot of screen time since his first episode in season 2, and Josh was pushed into the background halfway into season 3. Second, Josh was clearly never intended as the endgame love interest or a lead character, with the writers always being addement that Paula was the second lead.

Quote

I was thinking that it's impressive how much more central Rebecca's (former) coworkers have become to the story. Who would've thought George and Maya would be such key players back in the early days?

This episode make it clear how the  writers have struggled to find a place for White Josh, given how Maya, Jim and Tim have all done more singing on the show. WhiJo not directly being a friend of Bex or a a co-worker means he had no place in  this episode or last week's.

Quote

I can't recall any other character, other than Rebecca, that had a full episode dedicated to their POV.

Getting Over Jeff was a Paula-centric episode, with Bex and Josh having smaller roles.

 

On 28/01/2019 at 2:45 AM, Yeah No said:

Plus, the show is almost looking like it's deliberately making a caricature out of her relationship with new Greg.

That was part of the gag. Marcy had a squeeky voice in the dream (and kept saying "I'm Marcy") based solely on Maya's impression of her, Greg's douche personality was purely because Nate was jealous, and Bex constantly telling Greg he is funny was because Nate heard them laugh.

Edited January 28, 2019 by quangtran

[DianeDobbler]

8 hours ago, quangtran said:

Nathaniel was given a lot of screen time since his first episode in season 2, and Josh was pushed into the background halfway into season 3. Second, Josh was clearly never intended as the endgame love interest or a lead character, with the writers always being amendment that Paula was the second lead.

I've never understood the writers' intentions to be carved in stone like that. Rachel Bloom has said repeatedly that Vincent Rodriguez's performance changed her mind about Josh's viability, that he is a viable end game candidate for Rebecca's heart. Initially he was supposed to be an abstraction or symbol of romantic love. Scott Michael Foster was given five episodes in a "let's see how you do" way and then upgraded to regular when they liked him, so the initial intention for him to dominate S3 wasn't there with HIM, either.  I also don't recall when the writers were adamant that Paula was the second lead. She was the classic sidekick. It got a lot of positive feedback so they were often answering questions like "Is the real love story Paula and Rebecca." As we saw with the finale of S3, that is a relationship they can go to when they feel something else they're trying lacks sufficient stakes.

I am expecting Josh to be the End Game here and think it is being structured exactly like that. Things change quickly on this show. Two episodes ago, the one in the gym, Nathaniel was written as a foil for Greg. This past episode that flipped. I won't be mad if he isn't but I do think it's interesting how adamant some people are that Josh does not count. He has moved in with her and is her friend, and she's attracted to him. I think they are "saving" things for future episodes, which is why they're not showing their hand about HIS feelings (well, he hasn't articulated them, but has shown us a few things via behavior). BTW, my expectation is completely apart from any theoretical argument that he shouldn't be or it would validate stalking or whatever. (That last I totally dismiss - Paula should be in jail, Valencia should be suing the two of them, and Nathaniel should also be behind bars. As should Rebecca, for that matter.) But anyway, my opinion exists completely apart whether anyone thinks that's a good ending. I will say I think there has been an incredible double standard re Josh, that he's almost invisible to some even when he's featured or when certain points are shown, and that there's a refusal to think of him as in the mix, and more of that kind of thing that would not exist if he were a cute hot white dude. I don't think the show necessarily shares that double standard.

I like Scott Michael Foster a whole lot more than I liked Santino Fontana as Greg, but I did not enjoy Nathaniel / Rebecca and very much wish they had not made him a stereotypical rich handsome dude with daddy issues. That type has been deconstructed to DEATH and behind and CXG did nothing new with it. He's a good actor and I wish they had created a different character for him. I would not appreciate an end game that had Rebecca ending up with the rich handsome blondish guy who turned out to have a vulnerable streak and a heart of gold - that seems antithetical to CXG in every way.

For the record, I ended up liking Josh the best because of Rodriguez's warmth, not liking Fontana, and being meh on the chemistry Foster and Bloom are meant to project. That's where I was until the episode with Jason, where I found myself enjoying him with Bloom very much.

[Trini]

54 minutes ago, DianeDobbler said:

I am expecting Josh to be the End Game here and think it is being structured exactly like that. Things change quickly on this show. Two episodes ago, the one in the gym, Nathaniel was written as a foil for Greg. This past episode that flipped. I won't be mad if he isn't but I do think it's interesting how adamant some people are that Josh does not count. He has moved in with her and is her friend, and she's attracted to him. I think they are "saving" things for future episodes, which is why they're not showing their hand about HIS feelings (well, he hasn't articulated them, but has shown us a few things via behavior). BTW, my expectation is completely apart from any theoretical argument that he shouldn't be or it would validate stalking or whatever. (That last I totally dismiss - Paula should be in jail, Valencia should be suing the two of them, and Nathaniel should also be behind bars. As should Rebecca, for that matter.) But anyway, my opinion exists completely apart whether anyone thinks that's a good ending. I will say I think there has been an incredible double standard re Josh, that he's almost invisible to some even when he's featured or when certain points are shown, and that there's a refusal to think of him as in the mix, and more of that kind of thing that would not exist if he were a cute hot white dude. I don't think the show necessarily shares that double standard.

I like Josh, and I'd prefer he was 'endgame' (if there even has to be an endgame), but I don't think it's going to be him because they've given him very little character growth (or at least not as much as others).

But I'm finding the show hard to predict this season, and there's still 7 episodes left, so there several ways they could go that are plausible.

[Irlandesa]

10 hours ago, quangtran said:

Josh was clearly never intended as the endgame love interest or a lead character, with the writers always being amendment that Paula was the second lead.

The Paula/Rebecca "real love story" talk came later in the series.  And while Josh might not be end game, it still doesn't explain why their male lead was shoved to the background in favor of others. 

10 hours ago, quangtran said:

This episode make it clear how the  writers have struggled to find a place for White Josh, given how Maya, Jim and Tim have all done more singing on the show. WhiJo not directly being a friend of Bex or a a co-worker means he had no place in  this episode or last week's.

White Josh isn't a regular. 

2 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

Scott Michael Foster was given five episodes in a "let's see how you do" way and then upgraded to regular when they liked him

He was basically hired as a regular.  I know the wording was "with the potential of being a regular if the series is renewed" is almost always "will be upped to regular if the series is renewed." 

[Iseut]

What a fun episode. The cast all did such a great job, and who knows rom-coms better than the creators/writers of this show? They nailed them. 

Quote

I loved Rachel Bloom's bitch faces at the table in the bar. She has that jealous-ex-in-romantic comedy routine DOWN.

Hee hee, totally. She's the "bitch in the corner of the poster!"

As well done as the episode was, and as much as I appreciated the great bits given to minor characters like Jim, George and Burt, I also felt a little wistful. The show is so close to being over and I'm going to miss these people! I enjoy Nathaniel and Maya and the actors who play them, but I feel like I want more time with Rebecca, Paula, Josh, and Heather, who were mostly on the sidelines (or completely absent).

[Eeksquire]

I think the problem I have with the idea of Josh as endgame is this: He left Rebecca at the altar.  I know in show world, they're friends again (which I find unrealistic even for this show, though I understand the impulse to keep Vincent Rodriguez around because he's great), but that's a rough thing to come back from and go back to romantically, even for Rebecca.  (Maybe especially for post-recovery Rebecca who seems to be growing into her own self-worth.)  Even the other characters would have to twist themselves into pretzels to not react terribly to that.  (...Uh, no pretzel pun intended.)

On another note, I hope we get more Heather in this last stretch of episodes, and not just her standing in the background making the odd explanatory remark here or there.  I think Vella Lovell is criminally underused.  And, to be honest, I'd rather see almost any of the secondary characters more than NewGreg, who I just can't warm up to, though I admit that I am never a fan of actor swapping, so it might just be me.

[quangtran]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

The Paula/Rebecca "real love story" talk came later in the series.  And while Josh might not be end game, it still doesn't explain why their male lead was shoved to the background in favor of others. 

White Josh isn't a regular. 

SMF and David Hull were both upgraded to regular in season 3, but Hull was quietly placed back to guest star status in season 4.

Also, Josh wasn't really the male lead. He was barely in the pilot and wasn't developed into episode 3. Season one had just as much Greg as it did Josh. Also, the show perfectly explained why Josh's role was reduced. When Bex stopped obsessing over him, he  became "irrelevant", thus became a supporting player like Valencia and Heather.

[dubbel zout]

My problem with Josh as endgame is that despite his kind heart—and he truly is a lovely, caring person—he's still mostly an immature doofus. For someone else that would be no problem, but I think Rebecca needs someone who will challenge her intellectually. Josh can't do that.

9 minutes ago, Eeksquire said:

I think Vella Lovell is criminally underused. 

I've felt this way since forever. I like how Heather has evolved, though, so at least there's that.

[Irlandesa]

7 hours ago, quangtran said:

SMF and David Hull were both upgraded to regular in season 3, but Hull was quietly placed back to guest star status in season 4.

Right.  But, as you pointed out, he has spent 3 out of four seasons in a recurring capacity and is not currently a regular.  I think they mainly made him a regular because they could and wanted to guarantee he'd be around to finish out White Josh and Darryl's story last season.

7 hours ago, quangtran said:

Also, Josh wasn't really the male lead.

I think male lead is a bit deceptive since Rebecca was really the only main lead in the beginning.  Everyone else was varying levels of supporting.  But of the supporting characters, specifically of the male variety, I do think Josh was meant to be the lead.  Not only did they talk up his casting more than just about anyone else but in the credits, he has always received second billing after Rachel even though others in the cast, including Santino Fontana, had more IMDb and/or theater credits.  And I'm pretty sure he was front and center that first season in both Rebecca's story and his own with Valencia.  Greg faded into the background in the middle of the season (which I think could be due to his filming Shades of Blue but I'm not entirely sure.)

7 hours ago, Eeksquire said:

I think the problem I have with the idea of Josh as endgame is this: He left Rebecca at the altar.

Sure.  And even though he didn't know it at the time, she crazy stalked him.  I mean, if there's forgiveness for all the shit she's pulled, there can be forgiveness for leaving her at the altar.

7 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

My problem with Josh as endgame is that despite his kind heart—and he truly is a lovely, caring person—he's still mostly an immature doofus. For someone else that would be no problem, but I think Rebecca needs someone who will challenge her intellectually. Josh can't do that.

That used to be my position and my reasoning why Greg was a better fit for her.  (After rewatching a few season 1 eps, I won't lie, I still think Santino's Greg had the best dynamic with Rachel's Rebecca.)  But now that she has taken active steps to try to get healthy and leave behind a job she hates, I could see it working.  We get different things from different people in our lives.  Maybe for Rebecca, goofy goodness in a hot bod is just what she needs in a romantic partner whereas her larger good friends base can provide the intellectual stimulation.

[dubbel zout]

10 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Maybe for Rebecca, goofy goodness in a hot bod is just what she needs in a romantic partner whereas her larger good friends base can provide the intellectual stimulation.

Maybe! As someone who wants her partner to intellectually challenge her, though, I can't imagine being happy with that kind of goofball. (I know it's unfair to force Rebecca to fit my requirements, heh!)

[Trini]

[dubbel zout]

That is ADORABLE.

[femmefan1946]

As long as he respects my intelligence, and is confident in his own strengths.....

But Josh isn't stupid, in my opinion, just not very well educated. He coasted through high school and somehow, although he has Philippino parents, did not go further. (I have a few Pinoys in my extended family and this seems like  big misunderstanding of Pinoy culture.)

He'd make cute, healthy babies and be a great stay at home dad. That could even be his 'influencer' niche.

[Trini]

1 hour ago, femmefan1946 said:

But Josh isn't stupid, in my opinion, just not very well educated. He coasted through high school and somehow, although he has Philippino parents, did not go further.

They literally only mentioned it on the show once (early season 1), but Josh at least has some training as a radiology tech, because that's the job he had before he got the job at the store that he really wanted.

Don't ask me why I remember that specific detail.

[DianeDobbler]

Quote

He was basically hired as a regular.  I know the wording was "with the potential of being a regular if the series is renewed" is almost always "will be upped to regular if the series is renewed." 

I'm going by what SMF said in a recent interview, that he was given five on a "let's see how you do." basis. A show usually puts a positive public announcement spin on casting because it's so sensitive for the performers. With that caveat, I think they gave SMF the five only as a formality, an insurance policy to cover their behinds in case it didn't work for some totally unanticipated reason, but that behind the scenes the show runners anticipated it would work and mapped out S3 accordingly even before he'd begun shooting.

It was obvious CXG was excited to have him. SMF himself has always been the one to throw cold water on his own hype. Aline said that the reason SMF wasn't cast as Greg when he auditioned for Greg was because nobody could possibly believe a guy as handsome as SMF would be stuck in Greg's life or be the runner-up in some girl's romantic arc. When that was quoted back to SMF he said that was flattering spin but he believed the actual reason was they wanted a stronger singing chops for Greg than his own.

Josh's intelligence - I think it was a big mistake to just lift Hector's original Mom weirdness and paste it onto Josh with Hector's mom. That was lazy. I recently rewatched an earlier season. Think it was S2 when Josh was stalling because he didn't want to tell Greg he was living with Rebecca. When Greg asked him where he was living Josh said, "Where do I reside?" like he actually knew the word reside. It just bugs me that they went the dumb route. It was overkill.

Edited February 1, 2019 by DianeDobbler

[Cthulhudrew]

Nathaniel crying into the arms of the pizza guy he's never met before brought back deja vu memories of my days delivering for Pizza Hut... 

 

 

(Ha! Not really. That would have been suuuuuper awkward.)

Not a terrible episode, although I do question spending an entire episode in the fantasy land of someone that is not the main character of the show, this far into the final season. And while I enjoyed the skewering of many rom-com tropes, I feel like they could have told the same story but have it actually take place in the real world of the show, while delivering on character interactions that have been built up over many episodes (or even- gasp!- seasons) and still get Nathaniel to the same place by the end.

That said, he is obviously end-game, because Rebecca can only possibly end up with someone else who works out their troubles in an imaginary place.

ETA: Oh, one other thing- even in Nathaniel fantasy land, they are giving Donna Lynne Champlin practically nothing to do this season and wasting her character. :'(

Edited February 3, 2019 by Cthulhudrew