S04.E10 Episode 10

[scrb]

1 hour ago, Diane12251 said:

Just read the poll - "How Did Alison Die?"  Then saw a post that said Sarah Treem gives the answer here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rV5uOBlCrh8

So she says that Alison was, in fact, murdered, but the tragedy is that everyone (on the show) believes she committed suicide and the audience is the only one who'll ever know she didn't.   So does that mean that Ben will never be brought to justice?  I was hoping that in Season 5, he bastard would be caught!!

She has to have been murdered or else Alison made up that whole thing in her mind?

If that's the case, you can't trust ANY of these characters' POVs.  Or at least you might as well toss out most of Alison's POVs over the course of the series.

[izabella]

2 minutes ago, scrb said:

She has to have been murdered or else Alison made up that whole thing in her mind?

Noah made up the whole thing with the guard, and the guard supposedly stabbing him in the neck when he had done it to himself.  So it's easy for me to believe Allison considered both scenarios in her head as "the stories we tell ourselves" but the truth is she walked into the ocean, like she's tried to do before.

Edited August 20, 2018 by izabella

[yourmomiseasy]

16 hours ago, A-Lo said:

I may be alone in this thought but I was so touched when Cole grabbed the urn and ran away with it.  I didn't find it comedic at all.  I thought that at that moment, he was the only one who really knew Allison and would know that she wouldn't want to be part of such a farce.  And she certainly wouldn't want to be swept back into the ocean.  She should've been buried beside her beloved Gabriel.

I understand it was supposed to be touching and agree he was probably right about Alison not wanting to buried at sea, but the visual was hilarious.  Something about him running with the urn on the beach in his suit and the mechanics of how he was running.

15 hours ago, casey65 said:

I like Noah and Cole better together than Noah and anyone else.  I know a lot of posters are dismayed at the idea of season five being the two of them teaming up to solve her murder but I’d love it.  I think the two actors really play well off each other and the writing for their scenes together has been stellar. 

Well, Cole is pretty much the only character on the show that doesn't buy Noah's BS and think he's god's gift.  I think that helps.

10 hours ago, izabella said:

I think the very first scene they showed us was Allison sitting at the shore during the daytime wearing that same shirt (or dress?) from the night in her apartment.  When was that scene of Allison on the beach?  I don't remember it.

No, it was a different outfit, it had sleeves and a v-neck.  I think it is from the episode where she walks into the ocean and is saved.

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

In the purely "gut feel" category is that the Ben of the second scene just wasn't recognizable as the Ben of any previous sighting on the show. Nor was he even recognizable as a dimensional human being (as opposed to a cliché villain Alison could easily imagine from movies and TV). In the season finale he was the believable Ben again--flawed, weak, but not evil. I suppose you could construct a split-personality psychotic explanation for Ben, but the show has been much more interested in portraying the departures from reality that exist within the normal range of human mental/emotional states, and it strains my credulity that the show would turn itself into a completely different show for one event.

I'm not an expert on PTSD, but others that have more insight have posted that a huge personality shift like that isn't unheard of with an episode.  I also choose to believe that since it was Alison's POV it was colored by fear and that exaggerated how over the top menacing he was.  (that's my fanwank, at least) 

[scrb]

18 minutes ago, izabella said:

Noah made up the whole thing with the guard, and the guard supposedly stabbing him in the neck when he had done it to himself.  So it's easy for me to believe Allison considered both scenarios in her head as "the stories we tell ourselves" but the truth is she walked into the ocean, like she's tried to do before.

Well then this show is kinda pointless.

They put a lot of air time into dreams or imagined scenarios and it's not clear what happened and what didn't?

It was a good trick to use in the first season.  They could have ended it there, as a mini series.

It would have certainly spared people the whole of Season 3.

[scrb]

1 hour ago, Diane12251 said:

I agree about them using scenes from Alison's 2nd POV in the previouslies as being confirmation that Ben killed her.  I also agree that it was pretty ballsy of him to show up at the funeral and say what he did.  I really do hope that in Season 5, Cole investigates Ben more and proves that he killed her.  I like the Cole/Noah pairing, too, so if they did that together, that would be great.  

If they went this route, it would kind of confirm that they really didn't have good ideas for another season so they took the opportunity presented by Ruth's departure to craft a murder mystery to take up good part of season 5.

If the actor who plays Ben is slated to appear in several episodes of S05, we know what they're going to do.

[taragel]

9 minutes ago, scrb said:

If they went this route, it would kind of confirm that they really didn't have good ideas for another season so they took the opportunity presented by Ruth's departure to craft a murder mystery to take up good part of season 5.

If the actor who plays Ben is slated to appear in several episodes of S05, we know what they're going to do.

Actually, I think the murder mystery is entirely off the table now. Treem says in that clip posted above that the audience are the only ones who will ever know the truth, that Alison was murdered and didn't commit suicide. So there'd be no point to have Cole and Noah spend time investigating if they're not going to get any answers. (I realize that's a meta statement about this whole show, but...).

[Blinkoshuman]

Quote

y BFF just died of MBC a few months ago and this is exactly how it went down it was hard for me to watch. (Meaning this epi was hard to watch because it was done so damn well and close to reality

MY condolences on your loss. I have lung cancer (good results so far from treatment.)  THe last scene with Vik and Helen was really hard for me and my husband to watch. I was hoping he’d change his mind about treatment. His statement that he wants more life is exactly why refusing treatment was never an option for me, and why I never ask the docs about a prognosis. 

I also think we are being prepared for a Helen and Noah reconciliation, and I’m fine with that.

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, CleoCaesar said:

I guess I'll never understand this postmodern (?) approach to text analysis. IMO of course an author is more privvy to the characters he or she created. They literally wouldn't exist without the author, nor would anything that happens to the characters. An author's interpretation of his or her own text will always be the correct one, and certainly more correct than a fan's reading of it. I think it takes a certain amount of arrogance (no personal offense intended, Milburn Stone) to state that someone understands an author's words/character more than the author who wrote/created them. Or that a fan's reading and the author's reading is on the same level of "correctness."

 

I don't dispute for a moment that Sarah Treem knows what she intended. (That would be crazy.) I do question whether intentions always end up on the screen--and if it sometimes occurs instead that a finished artwork has meanings different from those intended.

I give Treem's work so much respect that I can't sign on to the word "fan" as a recipient of it. The person whose eyes receive a Van Gogh and is moved by it isn't called a fan, or the person who studies Shakespeare. Many meanings have been found in Shakespeare's work over the centuries, at least some of which are likely not to be ones he intended--but they are no less supportable by the evidence of the work itself. With good art, the artist and the receiver of the art are in dialogue. (Not the kind of dialogue that exists on social media, the kind that exists in a silent communication between the inner worlds of artist and receiver. I would be surprised if Treem didn't acknowledge that viewers might find meanings different from hers yet completely supportable by an internal analysis of the "text," and even more surprised if she weren't grateful for this. To invoke her other show that I loved, the psychoanalyst doesn't take everything the patient says at face value; in fact, the patient may be the least well-equipped to know the meanings of the words she says.)

Edited August 20, 2018 by Milburn Stone

[Diane12251]

I thought Alison's 2nd POV was reality from the start, so I believed that she was murdered by Ben from the get-go - and having Sarah Treem say that it was murder now just confirms what I already thought.  But it really bugs me that they are going to leave it at that - and that Ben apparently is going to get away with it.  To me, that is a ripe subject for Season 5.

Also, I thought from the moment that Vik and Sierra had sex that she was going to get pregnant, so that didn't surprise me at all.  Some people said that was a soap opera move, but this has been a soap opera from the beginning, so...

I also thought that they were laying the groundwork for Noah and Helen to get back together - that comment Noah said that he would want her to be there when he died was very telling.

[weaver]

1 hour ago, taragel said:

Actually, I think the murder mystery is entirely off the table now. Treem says in that clip posted above that the audience are the only ones who will ever know the truth, that Alison was murdered and didn't commit suicide. So there'd be no point to have Cole and Noah spend time investigating if they're not going to get any answers. (I realize that's a meta statement about this whole show, but...).

I agree.  Plus I think there would be no scenes to show activities of Alison from the time she returned from California to the time she died without scenes with Ruth Wilson.  What else would they show?  Everyone else, save Ben, was in California or on the road.  

[Diane12251]

1 hour ago, scrb said:

If they went this route, it would kind of confirm that they really didn't have good ideas for another season so they took the opportunity presented by Ruth's departure to craft a murder mystery to take up good part of season 5.

If the actor who plays Ben is slated to appear in several episodes of S05, we know what they're going to do.

Sarah Treem has already said that Alison was murdered, but that everyone on the show thinks she committed suicide, and that the audience are the only ones who will ever know the truth.  So no murder mystery in Season 5.  Ben gets away with it.  Sad.

[CountryGirl]

This was a pretty satisfying finale.

I mean, yes, we had the annoyance of that Princeton professor professing (pun intended) her unrequited love for Noah back in the day but that's in keeping with 4 seasons of all the ladies love Noah. And of course, Sierra had Vik's bun in her oven and we didn't have to have Tangina levels of psychic ability to figure that out after post-Porsche sex.

I loved Anton taking a page from Noah's book in his impromptu writing assignment.

I hope he sticks around next season but hard pass to his mother and/or Noah fucking her.

Ugh to that awful funeral that was all about Athena and her hippie dippie bullshit. She didn't know her daughter at all. WTF to Ben showing up. 

Cole running away with the urn:

It was equal parts silly (up there with Jeff Probst's urn dramatics on some of the early final tribal councils on Survivor) but it was also somehow touching. He knew Alison would have HATED that funeral and wanted to protect her to the last. She would have wanted to be buried next to Gabriel and quite honestly, she expected it someday soon. 

I'm guessing Alison being cremated rules out a murder mystery???

Noah knew exactly where he would run to and was more sanguine about the funeral, telling him: "Let Athena have her moment as chief mourner, so we can all go home to our more private grief.” Well said. 

He then reminded him: “You’re not the only one who loved her." His words find their mark.

Cole fires a shot of his own. “Don’t I know it.” That one line speaking volumes - his love for Alison and his hate for her and Noah and yes, even himself.  

Even more heartbreaking was his burying his head in his mother's lap and finally, Mare gets something to work with.

His saying he understood his father's suicide and Alison's (apparent) suicide:

Whitney, Whitney, Whitney...it's a testament to the actress that you love her or hate her or love to hate her, in my case, but she's always entertaining.

I did love Helen finally calling her out: "Can you just not...one time?" Whitney: "What?" Helen: "Be a bitch." Hee hee hee!

I really enjoyed Noah and Helen's scene outside the hospital. They excel at showing a couple who despite divorce, were very clearly married for a number of years and are still so comfortable with one another. I agree that Helen is still in love with Noah and he's still finding himself or whatever but far closer to it than ever before and I do see them ending up together in the end. Noah's admission to Cole that Alison didn't make him happy was very telling. I think Noah, pompous ass that he is, is realizing something Cole has yet to discover - another person can't make you happy, it has to come from within. 

Noah sits down next to her: "Oh, God."

Helen, teasing: "You sound so old. You didn't used to groan when you sat down." And notices how he almost puts his arm around her, rooted in instinct, in memory, in habit.

Noah grouses: "Why are we sitting down here? There's a perfectly good bench over there."

Helen shrugs: "I want to be low to the ground." Could this be symbolic of them rebuilding their relationship from the ground up? Probably a bit too on the nose but it's an interesting choice.

Later, he asks after Vik.

Noah: "Vik OK?"

Helen: "No. Vik is going to die."

Noah looks stricken: "I'm so sorry."

Helen: "Me, too. I'm so very, very sorry. Did you ever meet our neighbor Sierra?"

Noah, ignoring the "well that's switching gears" thoughts: "I don't think so, no."

Helen: "She's pregnant. With Vik's baby."

Noah: "What?" He looks at her and sees she's serious, then pulls her into an embrace. "Oh, God. Helen. Look, Vik's not in his right mind now, you know?"

Helen shrugs: "Look, it's alright. I don't care. I don't care! I fucked her, too." I am officially in love with "give no fucks" Helen. 

Noah: "Really?" He laughs her. "And I missed it?"

DW and MT play so well off of each other and Noah's face as she was sharing the latest - priceless.

Helen: "God. Poor Alison. How was her funeral?"

Noah: "Oh, it was awful."

Helen: "Right."

Noah: "No. They uh, her mother had her cremated, so the ceremony was on the beach, and Cole grabbed the urn and ran away with it."

Helen, echoes my first thought when I saw that: "Are you fucking kidding me?"

Later, Helen worries she's broken (just as broken as Alison although she doesn't expressly state it).

Noah: "Stop, OK? Seriously, stop. That's enough. You are a lot of things, Helen. You are neurotic and overbearing and you're snobby and you're judgmental and superior, but you're..."

Helen doesn't know what to do with this Noah: "Are you gonna stop?"

Noah: "But you are not broken. I don't know anyone who is tougher than you."

Helen: "That might be the nicest thing you've ever said to me."

Noah: "But I gotta say, if there is one person that I would want to be with when I die, if there is one person who would make me feel no matter what that I was safe and I was loved, it'd be you."

Helen is touched: "OK, that really is the nicest thing you've ever said to me."

Noah is an ass, a cheating, self-centered ass, but I can't help it if a tiny sliver in me is rooting for them. Maybe I'm just, to quote Helen, "fucking crazy."

I loved Helen's smile at the end, so full of hope and promise, her own words to Alison perhaps back to her about how it wasn't too late to change her narrative, and possibly how she's free of Vik's awful mother and she's Sierra's cross to bear now. 

Edited August 20, 2018 by CountryGirl

[Diane12251]

Great post - and terrific recap!!  I hope we never have to see Vik's mother again!!  Or his father, for that matter!!  Yes, she is Sierra's cross to bear now.  I liked Helen in this episode more than any other.  Love how you put it - "give no fucks" Helen.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Diane12251

[Dminches]

While so much fuss is being made about Ruth Wilson, Maura Tierney is the female star of this show.  When she has been given a chance by the writers she shines.  I was very happy that Helen got the last viewpoint last night.  She was magnificent.  Helen has been given the responsibility of staying sane while everything and everyone around her goes to shit.  

[Diane12251]

8 minutes ago, Dminches said:

While so much fuss is being made about Ruth Wilson, Maura Tierney is the female star of this show.  When she has been given a chance by the writers she shines.  I was very happy that Helen got the last viewpoint last night.  She was magnificent.  Helen has been given the responsibility of staying sane while everything and everyone around her goes to shit.  

Yes, I agree - Maura Tierney is a great actress.  One my favorite roles for her was in Liar Liar with Jim Carrey - a comedy, obviously, but she was great in it.

[meira.hand]

On 8/19/2018 at 8:34 AM, Penman61 said:

Not news, but Joshua Jackson is an extraordinarily open and expressive actor.

As was demonstrated in abundance and in several dimensions in Fringe :)

[weaver]

Maura Tierney got stuck with some really bad writing this year, until last night.  And she really came through.

Mare Winningham was brilliant too, in that graveyard scene with Cole.  

[LoveLeigh]

OK I will be honest. This episode really really depressed me and today at about 4 PM I started to cry. I didn't cry because Sarah Treem wrote a script in which a fake character named Alison died on a TV show. I cried because of a sort of bigger picture and how this episode impacted me. 

For 4 seasons, we saw a character named Alison. Love her or hate her, it really did not matter. She had a "backstory" and a life that was performed by Ruth Wilson. And a big part of her life was her great grief for her son Gabriel who died.

And then Alison died. And there was her funeral on the beach and she was cremated and reduced to a pile of ashes in an urn. And her entire life, all of her great emotions and sadness and everything she experienced was gone, vanished, and nothing of her remained... except for the memories others would have of her. 

I thought of the final scene of the film Synecdoche, New York. It is the experience of all of us. I don't think i felt LOSS like this over a TV character since Quinn died. Ruth Wilson must be one damn good actor. 

[MBayGal]

On 8/19/2018 at 9:25 AM, weaver said:

How could Cole have been so sure Alison did not commit suicide last week yet other than glowering at Vik at the funeral, there is no mention of this?  How is it that Noah doesn’t mention anything to Helen that the Alison story is not over?   Why didn’t Noah ask Helen about the state of mind of Alison when she left LA.   Will all this be forgotten next year?  

The Princeton scene was ridiculous.  The whole Noah POV was pointless.  Anton is an entitled brat, as bad as Whitney.  Sierra being pregnant is right out of Days of our Lives.  Cole’s resolution with Luisa makes no sense at all.   In the current environment, Luisa can be the legal guardian of ten kids and she still can be deported.  

I assume you meant "glowering at Ben." Agree with your comments, esp about Sierra!  I expected that after Vik told Helen he wanted a child and slept with Sierra.  She's going to look unbalanced pregnant, since she weighs about 87 pounds.

In other news, I was at a weaving workshop the past 3 days, and took a break from putting stuff in order to resume reading comments; the first one is saw then was from another weaver?  

[Double A]

14 hours ago, weaver said:

By the way, my memory is failing me.  When did Cherry become such a caring and articulate parent?

I actually questioned the POV we were in! I guess when you are face down in a cemetery even Cherry melts.

[Double A]

9 hours ago, Maximona said:

I personally would not trust someone who decamped from the funeral with his dead X-wife's ashes to go on a road trip with a kid I loved, but I guess Luisa didn't really have a choice.  Gotta say, Luisa is some kind of saint.  If I were her, I'd be going back to Ecuador with every last cent of the Lobster Roll $$$$.  I'm sure Ecuador is a great place if you're crazy rich.

My only thought about Luisa this episode was stop crying and go back to Ecuador with the pile of money Cole will give you for your troubles. Run girl run like you just jacked your ex wife's ashes from the memorial service!

[Eyes High]

Noah giggling when Helen ruefully admits that she fucked Sierra was strangely adorable. That whole scene was excellent.

[gingerella]

 They just should have ended the series with this seasoncloser because really, Helen and Cole are the ones who really got fucked over and they’re moving on in their own ways and, And, AND let this shite be done already. Oh yeah, and in case it hasn’t been said enough, ‘Fuck Sarah Treem and her weak ass writing’.  

ETA: The only saving grace for me with this shitshow is Maura Tierney. Who knew she had this in her, I certainly didn’t, and I’ve been so pleasantly surprised and impressed with her. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by gingerella

[MBayGal]

9 hours ago, preeya said:

 

9 hours ago, HOTNTX53 said:

Did anyone else catch the 2 different years of death on Gabriel's headstone in the cemetery?

At first it was 2008-2013, then a few minutes later it was 2008-2012!

It's called a goof. Who cares!

 

Apparently noone who is paid to oversee continuity.  Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy.

[Pike Ludwell]

2 hours ago, Diane12251 said:

I hope we never have to see Vik's mother again!!  Or his father, for that matter!!  

This. Couple of dull people who react weirdly to everything and with extreme passive aggressive tendencies. I couldn't stand to be around them for more than a few minutes.

Remember, the final scene was Helen's POV - with Noah conveniently behaving exactly how she'd want and telling her exactly what she needed to hear.  Next season might start with Noah's POV. Or had she fallen asleep and this was just a dream. Why did Noah suddenly appear out of nowhere? I might have missed something.

And Whitney ... she's developed into an extremely erratic, volatile kook who goes crazy at "provocations" any rational person would be able to deal with in a productive way. She has to be handled with kid gloves or she will be hateful. Good to see Helen be blunt with her and not just take her nonsense.

[MBayGal]

What does it matter that Sarah Treem said Alison was murdered?  In our brave new world, "Truth isn't truth," as we learned from Rudy Giuliani. 

IMO, she was depressed, took a few Xanax with a lot of wine, went out on the jetty, and was knocked into the ocean by the waves.  Both POVs we saw were her drunken fantasies as she walked in the storm.  

[AngelaHunter]

I didn't even know there was another ep this season. Duh.

So after Alison's shocking demise, we return to... "My First Day at School", by Anton the Preppy. Gee, I was really dying to know how that went. Like, really, do I give a rat's fluffy butt about that? Sadly, I do not.

Then another woman lusting after Noah. Are we to deduce she stayed single all these years because she was pining for him, also for which I give not a hoot or a holler. Thankfully we were spared the sight of him banging her too. We got enough of the pointless story with the French woman and her whole shtick with the elderly husband and the daughter and blah blah blah who cares.

I thought Cole racing off clutching the urn was a "WTF?" moment. He scurried off so fast in those skinny little pants I couldn't help laughing. But, yeah, Alison was still Athena's daughter and not your wife, Cole! And who cares about your daughter? Let her see her Daddy running away like that. Your pain is all that matters. Oh, the pain! Anyway, why can't they just tell Joanie that Mommy had a bad accident? They don't have to give her all the gruesome details about suicide/murder(I still think she was murdered) at her age.

1 hour ago, Double A said:

My only thought about Luisa this episode was stop crying and go back to Ecuador with the pile of money Cole will give you for your troubles. Run girl run like you just jacked your ex wife's ashes from the memorial service!

Yes! Dump Cole's annoying ass and go on to bigger and WAY better things, Luisa. That man is a total mess and he's taking off alone to who-knows-where with that little girl? Worrisome.

I did love when Helen told Noah that she used Vik and that he could have been with someone who really and truly loved him. As always, the acting here is first-rate and I think that's all that keeps me watching. The acting is SO good it makes you care about these people no matter how unlikable or fucked up they may seem.

Edited August 21, 2018 by AngelaHunter

[AngelaHunter]

On 8/19/2018 at 1:57 PM, Bitsy said:

Vik didn't want to raise a child, he just wanted to have a child of his own to live on after he was gone. 

I was thinking he just wanted his parents to have a grandchild, a part of him after he's gone.

 

23 hours ago, PrincessPurrsALot said:

Has any woman ever met Noah and not wanted him?

I can't recall a single one. One look at him and their underpants puddle around their ankles.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

Something about him running with the urn on the beach in his suit and the mechanics of how he was running.

For me, it was the way he had the urn tucked under his arm, like a football.

Quote

I hope we never have to see Vik's mother again!!

For me, the only good part about Sierra being pregnant is how much Vik's mother will HATE the mother of her grandchild. As it happens, karma is a bigger bitch than Priya.

Though perhaps not a bigger bitch than Whitney. She is loathsome. 

It's interesting to me to compare and contrast the two death stories. Both Alison and Vik are dying young. Alison, who has consistently been clinically depressed to one degree or another; who set an expiration date on her own life at age 35, is unexpectedly killed, leaving a litany of unanswered questions. No one had time to prepare for it or say goodbye. Two of the people who love her the most can't even agree on how to send her into the afterlife. It's horrible for everyone who cares about her.

Then there's Vik, who had a zeal for life and despite being surrounded by illness and death on a daily basis, didn't seem to have given much thought to his own mortality. Why would he? He was young and healthy. Then boom - stage 4 cancer with a terrible prognosis but very little in the way of unanswered questions. What's killing him is thoroughly documented with pages and pages and pages of scans and lab work and images. Everyone knows his death is near and they have time to prepare (inasmuch as such a thing is possible) and say their goodbyes. There's plenty of time for Vik to state his wishes and be clear about what he wants for his funeral. It's horrible for everyone who cares about him. 

Quote

Has any woman ever met Noah and not wanted him?

Helen's mother. And she has terrible taste in men - she chose Helen's father TWICE!

Quote

That man is a total mess and he's taking off alone to who-knows-where with that little girl? Worrisome.

She isn't "that little girl," she is his daughter. He's always been perfectly capable of caring for her and he's not so unhinged now that he can't continue to do that. I thought him taking time alone with Joanie for them to grieve Alison together made perfect sense and was actually a sign of good parenting in an incredibly difficult situation.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Elizzikra

[preeya]

53 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

She isn't "that little girl," she is his daughter.

Was it ever reconciled as to who fathered Joanie? I'm having a memory lapse right now.

[DiabLOL]

23 hours ago, chocolatine said:

 

I really hate that Sierra is pregnant and I hope after Vik's death Helen has nothing more to do with Sierra, the baby, or Vik's parents. If Priya didn't like Helen, let's see how she deals with the waste of space that is Sierra, the opposite of her smart, humble, and hardworking son in every way.

I'd totally watch this show.

[yourmomiseasy]

3 hours ago, Pat Hoolihan said:

This. Couple of dull people who react weirdly to everything and with extreme passive aggressive tendencies. I couldn't stand to be around them for more than a few minutes.

Remember, the final scene was Helen's POV - with Noah conveniently behaving exactly how she'd want and telling her exactly what she needed to hear.  Next season might start with Noah's POV. Or had she fallen asleep and this was just a dream. Why did Noah suddenly appear out of nowhere? I might have missed something.

And Whitney ... she's developed into an extremely erratic, volatile kook who goes crazy at "provocations" any rational person would be able to deal with in a productive way. She has to be handled with kid gloves or she will be hateful. Good to see Helen be blunt with her and not just take her nonsense.

Whitney has always been that way, it isn't a new development.  

[LoveLeigh]

5 hours ago, preeya said:

Was it ever reconciled as to who fathered Joanie? I'm having a memory lapse right now.

Cole. 

[msrachelj]

21 hours ago, weaver said:

I think based on Sarah Treem's statement we won't see any investigation next year of Alison's death.  What would we want to see except Alison, and Ruth Wilson is not filming any more scenes.  I do find it hard to believe it was not a topic of conversation with Cole and anybody else, like his mother, perhaps, in last night's episode.  

kind of pissed off at their being no police investigation. she did not leave a note. they don't even question anyone? if they looked with one of those devices , they would see the blood splatter on the wall where she was killed. i call bull shit on the police just believing she committed suicide. and did i see the murderer at the funeral?

[Milburn Stone]

1 minute ago, msrachelj said:

kind of pissed off at their being no police investigation. 

There was one.

[attica]

"I'm not going to divorce you, Luisa, you can stay and do all the child care I can't be arsed to do. That's a good deal for you, right, undocumented person?" And there I was feeling a smidge of sympathy for Cole. Nopenopenope!

I do enjoy that at least one person in every ep (in which he appears) calls him 'Noah Fucking Solloway.' It just feels right.

[AngelaHunter]

12 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

She isn't "that little girl," she is his daughter.

I know Joanie is his daughter. I was just emphasizing that he's taking off for parts unknown with a little child while he seems to be in a state of great distress. He just returned from an erratic cross-country drive -  where he was kind of blindsided with information about his parents -  to find out the love of his life either killed herself or was murdered, and he didn't seem to be eating or sleeping much or well. It just seems to me it might not be the ideal time for him to take off  to "I don't know where" with a small child. JMO.

[Blakeston]

Vik's mother always struck me as a grotesque caricature of a stereotypical Indian mother ("You aren't feeding my son enough! Where are my grandchildren already? Did you know my son is a doctor?").

It would be one thing if she only came across that way in Helen's POV, but she was just as awful in Vik's.

[Razzberry]

1 hour ago, AngelaHunter said:

I know Joanie is his daughter. I was just emphasizing that he's taking off for parts unknown with a little child while he seems to be in a state of great distress. He just returned from an erratic cross-country drive -  where he was kind of blindsided with information about his parents -  to find out the love of his life either killed herself or was murdered, and he didn't seem to be eating or sleeping much or well. It just seems to me it might not be the ideal time for him to take off  to "I don't know where" with a small child. JMO.

Yeah, his driving on the way to the beach was horrifying.  Poor Joanie needs stability right now, but it would be an excellent time for Luisa to extricate herself from this toxic mess.  As much as she loves Joanie,  I don't think Cole's plan to keep her as a built-in babysitter is in her best interests.   Can't imagine Immigration being all that concerned about childcare for a man who apparently doesn't need to work.  Taking classes and having goals would carry more weight, but wasn't this was hand-waved away for some vague reason?  Luisa went from second fiddle down to third and deserves better.

I don't care for the way Cole's conducted himself throughout this ordeal, but do appreciate Jackson's ability in playing an asshole on the precipice of implosion.   

Edited August 21, 2018 by Razzberry

[Diane12251]

3 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

There was one. (speaking of the supposed "police investigation.")

Just barely - they apparently didn't look at her condo very hard because if they illuminated it with a black light, they most likely would have found blood.  Seems to me the detective decided it was suicide because of Alison's comment to him years earlier about making it to 35 and the fact that she had left money in an account for Joanie.  No note was left, which should have been a clue.  Ben obviously paid (perhaps bribed) the bartender to say he was there practically all night, which couldn't have been true.  The whole thing just reeks of botched police investigation.

[gingerella]

On 8/20/2018 at 3:24 AM, Razzberry said:

With kids like the Solloways god knows Helen had every reason to jump.  Perhaps the smile could be attributed to relief that Sierra is fulfilling Vik's Make A Wish  (for whatever hairbrained reason) and Sierra will have to deal with this woman?

Treem isn't that great of a writer at this point and I can practically see the story lines unfolding from miles away. So at this point, I'd like to call it that next season - which if the Baby Jesus is merciful, will really and truly put and end to this now-shittily written show - that in the first episode we'll see Vik's funeral, his obnoxious parents will be there in some sort of receiving line with Helen and Sierra will arrive in a cloud of unicorn piss and Skittles rainbows, and his parents will ask Helen, "Who is she and why is she here?" and Helen will think for a moment and then say, "Vik cheated on me by fucking her next door". Parents will look horrified, and then Helen's mouth will curl ever so slightly into an imperceptible smile and she'll say to them, "Oh, and she's pregnant now..." And then Helen will walk out, never looking back, and smile ever so slightly as she dumps Vik's nightmare parents directly in Sierra's lap forfuckingever. 

[AngelaHunter]

17 minutes ago, gingerella said:

we'll see Vik's funeral, his obnoxious parents will be there in some sort of receiving line with Helen and Sierra will arrive in a cloud of unicorn piss and Skittles rainbows, and his parents will ask Helen, "Who is she and why is she here?" and Helen will think for a moment and then say, "Vik cheated on me by fucking her next door". Parents will look horrified, and then Helen's mouth will curl ever so slightly into an imperceptible smile and she'll say to them, "Oh, and she's pregnant now..." And then Helen will walk out, never looking back, and smile ever so slightly as she dumps Vik's nightmare parents directly in Sierra's lap forfuckingever. 

OH, gawd - please! That would be utterly wonderful! roflmo @ bolded.

54 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

but do appreciate Jackson's ability in playing an asshole on the precipice of implosion.  

Yes. Can't fault the acting on this show. I've been thinking Cole reminds me of someone and realized that it's "Nate" from "Six Feet Under," a very similar fucked-up asshole who had a murdered wife (who was thought to have killed herself), was left with a small daughter and was always on the precipice of implosion too.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

 No note was left, which should have been a clue. 

Not really. People who commit suicide often don't leave a note.

I don't think that the police botched the investigation. They found the body of a missing woman in the water. She had some drugs and alcohol in her system. She had a history of mental health issues - some serious enough to have resulted in a multiple-months hospitalization. There is really no reason for them to suspect foul play and no reason for them to do fingerprints/test for blood/etc her apartment. The only person who could potentially has a motive had an alibi - and frankly, people cheat on their spouses all the time and don't kill anyone so it's not much of a motive. The only reason it seems so obvious to the audience is because we saw what happened. I think that most suicides don't get more investigation than Alison's death did.

[stormy weather]

The Sierra pregnancy story reminded me of this plotline from Grey's Anatomy a few (more like way more than a few) years back where Cristina Yang, an adult doctor, managed to get pregnant by another adult doctor after she had lost one ovary to an icicle (I kid you not) and regardless of the fact she had stated many times before she never wanted children. Here, Sierra and Vik (wow, another adult doctor!) sleep together ONCE and the miracle happens again! Birth control, anybody? I mean, I understand both pregnancies served the plot but come on, people. Come. On. It would be so much more interesting if for once things on shows went like they normally go in real life.

 

On 8/20/2018 at 7:48 PM, Milburn Stone said:

In the purely "gut feel" category is that the Ben of the second scene just wasn't recognizable as the Ben of any previous sighting on the show. Nor was he even recognizable as a dimensional human being (as opposed to a cliché villain Alison could easily imagine from movies and TV). In the season finale he was the believable Ben again--flawed, weak, but not evil. I suppose you could construct a split-personality psychotic explanation for Ben, but the show has been much more interested in portraying the departures from reality that exist within the normal range of human mental/emotional states, and it strains my credulity that the show would turn itself into a completely different show for one event.

I absolutely agree with this, I wondered about the same thing in the thread for last week's episode. The old trope of the veteran suffering from PTSD and turning crazy is just been done over and over and over (like the above-mentioned miracle pregnancies) and if that's really the case, I'm calling some seriously lazy writing here. The change in Ben was too sudden, he did a full 180 from calm and collected recovering addict to rude, careless, violent maniac basically overnight without us being given the slightest single hint that he also had that side to him and could also become that kind of person in the previous 2-3 episodes where we had seen him. I know Sarah Treem said Alison was murdered and she probably was, at this point, but I seriously don't want that to be what happened. This show has frequently graced us with some incredibly poignant and clever writing, and I refuse to believe it got so sloppy at the end just because they had to get rid of a character and couldn't come up with anything better.

 

On 8/20/2018 at 7:38 PM, DOBABYR said:

“For anybody who is wondering, Alison did not kill herself, but the tragedy & the irony is that all the people in her life think that she killed herself. The audience is actually the only ones who will ever know the truth”

Except we don't, Sarah!

 

To conclude, I also join the number of those who believe Helen and Noah will get back together next season. The show will close the circle and end like it had started: Helen with Noah and Cole with the realization that his only true love was and will always be Alison and with whatever is left of her (Joanie, who, by the way, looks remarkably different from either of them and this kind of bothers me but okay).

[AngelaHunter]

2 minutes ago, stormy weather said:

(Joanie, who, by the way, looks remarkably different from either of them and this kind of bothers me but okay).

That kind of bothers me too. She looks Hispanic to me.

 

3 minutes ago, stormy weather said:

Here, Sierra and Vik (wow, another adult doctor!) sleep together ONCE and the miracle happens again!

I know. It's like teenagers who say, "But I only did it once!" That's all it takes, guys!

 

5 minutes ago, stormy weather said:

he did a full 180 from calm and collected recovering addict to rude, careless, violent maniac basically overnight without us being given the slightest single hint that he also had that side to him

Maybe he seemed calm and collected because we only saw him sober? He said he didn't like what he was when he drank, as in when he tied his wife to the bed in front of his child. Some people do turn into monsters when they drink (I've known a couple of them - scary) and maybe he had done so before he came to Alison's place? He seemed a little strung out on something.

[Rockfish]

8 hours ago, gingerella said:

...and Sierra will arrive in a cloud of unicorn piss and Skittles rainbows, and his parents will ask Helen, "Who is she and why is she here?" and Helen will think for a moment and then say, "Vik cheated on me by fucking her next door". Parents will look horrified, and then Helen's mouth will curl ever so slightly into an imperceptible smile and she'll say to them, "Oh, and she's pregnant now..." And then Helen will walk out, never looking back, and smile ever so slightly as she dumps Vik's nightmare parents directly in Sierra's lap forfuckingever. 

 

And the beauty of this is Sierra won’t just take it, she’ll get under Vik’s mom’s skin in a way that Helen never could. Just think of all the retreats she’ll invite Priya to and all the new agey advice she’ll give her—hell, Sierra might even share with her the ancient practice of yoga! It’s win-win. 

 

5 hours ago, stormy weather said:

I absolutely agree with this, I wondered about the same thing in the thread for last week's episode. The old trope of the veteran suffering from PTSD and turning crazy is just been done over and over and over (like the above-mentioned miracle pregnancies) and if that's really the case, I'm calling some seriously lazy writing here. The change in Ben was too sudden, he did a full 180 from calm and collected recovering addict to rude, careless, violent maniac basically overnight without us being given the slightest single hint that he also had that side to him and could also become that kind of person in the previous 2-3 episodes where we had seen him. I know Sarah Treem said Alison was murdered and she probably was, at this point, but I seriously don't want that to be what happened. This show has frequently graced us with some incredibly poignant and clever writing, and I refuse to believe it got so sloppy at the end just because they had to get rid of a character and couldn't come up with anything better.

 

Except we don't, Sarah!

 

To conclude, I also join the number of those who believe Helen and Noah will get back together next season. The show will close the circle and end like it had started: Helen with Noah and Cole with the realization that his only true love was and will always be Alison and with whatever is left of her (Joanie, who, by the way, looks remarkably different from either of them and this kind of bothers me but okay).

 

See, I thought Ben showed a menacing side to him when Cole ran into him outside of Alison’s apartment a few episodes ago. It was striking because it was such an abrupt change from the humble “I’m just trying to be a better human” side he’d shown at AA in the same episode.

 

And  I’ve complained about Joanie not looking like Cole before. It bothers me because that was a pivotal plot point—Scotty noticed her strong resemblance to Cole when he ran into Alison and the baby, so he threatened Alison that he’d tell. (Yes, babies’ eyes change color, but she was beyond the age when this happens, IME. I’ll admit I’m irritationally annoyed at this casting choice.)

Edited August 22, 2018 by Rockfish

[Diane12251]

15 minutes ago, Rockfish said:

See, I thought Ben showed a menacing side to him when Cole ran into him outside of Alison’s apartment a few episodes ago. It was striking because it was such an abrupt change from the humble “I’m just trying to be a better human” side he’d shown at AA in the same episode.

Yes, I agree with this.  I think Ben showed his menacing side in this exchange with Cole, too.  I didn't think it was out of character for him to act the way he did in POV #2 at all.

15 minutes ago, Rockfish said:

And  I’ve complained about Joanie not looking like Cole before. It bothers me because that was a pivotal plot point—Scotty noticed her strong resemblance to Cole when he ran into Alison and the baby, so he threatened Alison that he’d tell. (Yes, babies’ eyes change color, but she was beyond the age when this happens, IME. I’ll admit I’m irritationally annoyed at this casting choice.)

Someone else said Joanie looks Hispanic, and I agree.  She doesn't look like Alison or Cole - almost more like Luisa.  I agree that this was a bad casting choice.

[riverwind]

I really hope for next season, the writers change their minds, and someone finds some small detail that just doesn't add up with the suicide, I think that was sort of like the other murder.  I hope they writers may realize we want justice!  Seeing Ben at the beach funeral was chilling! Have to just wait,whatelse do they really have that anyone will care about.

[Diane12251]

3 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

I don't think that the police botched the investigation. They found the body of a missing woman in the water. She had some drugs and alcohol in her system. She had a history of mental health issues - some serious enough to have resulted in a multiple-months hospitalization. There is really no reason for them to suspect foul play and no reason for them to do fingerprints/test for blood/etc her apartment. The only person who could potentially has a motive had an alibi - and frankly, people cheat on their spouses all the time and don't kill anyone so it's not much of a motive. The only reason it seems so obvious to the audience is because we saw what happened. I think that most suicides don't get more investigation than Alison's death did.

I understand what you're saying, but it was around two days after they found her body and supposedly the investigation had already been closed.  That doesn't sit well with me.  Guess I watch too much Dateline.

1 minute ago, riverwind said:

I really hope for next season, the writers change their minds, and someone finds some small detail that just doesn't add up with the suicide, I think that was sort of like the other murder.  I hope they writers may realize we want justice!  Seeing Ben at the beach funeral was chilling! Have to just wait,whatelse do they really have that anyone will care about.

Me, too!!!  It would really irk me if they leave it at Ben getting away with Alison's murder!!!

[msrachelj]

56 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

That kind of bothers me too. She looks Hispanic to me.

 

I know. It's like teenagers who say, "But I only did it once!" That's all it takes, guys!

 

Maybe he seemed calm and collected because we only saw him sober? He said he didn't like what he was when he drank, as in when he tied his wife to the bed in front of his child. Some people do turn into monsters when they drink (I've known a couple of them - scary) and maybe he had done so before he came to Alison's place? He seemed a little strung out on something.

she looks hispanic to me to. i hate when they can't cast related people to look anywhere near related.