S04.E09 Episode 9

[lesmisfits29]

8 minutes ago, Dminches said:

Right, he shows up with flowers and wine.

But in #2 doesn't he indicate that they had planned to go out to dinner and says he is hungry?  She gives him cheese and crackers as a result.  It seems like they had plans.

I guess I need to watch this again.

Yes they had plans to go to dinner in version #2. Ben’s visit was scheduled in both versions.

[Bitsy]

Oops - should have kept my mouth shut until I rewatch part 2.

[scrb]

1 hour ago, izabella said:

The detective said they verified Ben's alibi, so they didn't just accept it.  With that alibi, neither version 1 nor 2 fits, since he was seen in public drinking when he was either #1 having sex outside with Allison, or #2 carrying her to the ocean.

Alison has this prime view of the ocean.

Does she not have any neighbors?  They had sex on the balcony or Ben carried her body, not even rolled up in a rug or disguised, and threw it into the water.

Unless she had a beach front estate, with no neighbors for a quarter mile in each direction, they'd have been seen.

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, Dminches said:

Maybe, but you can also make the argument that she died that way only because Ruth Wilson wanted off the show.

Yes, and to be fair, every other event on this and every other show is partly a function of the real world demands placed on a production by budget, location availability, actor availability, et. al. It's how the show runners respond to those ever-present real world realities that matters.

[Penman61]

1 hour ago, JennyMominFL said:

yeah, I'm just going to let this debate go. I live with someone with PTSD and have been around quite a few others who have/ had it.  The anger and rage my husband had in the early years with this is something I recognize . He was a completely different person, sometimes a very scary one for a few years. Thats probably one of the reasons I couldn't sleep last night

 

I appreciate your sharing your first-hand insights on this, since many (most?) of us are lucky enough to not have had that first-hand experience.  Thanks. :)

Edited August 13, 2018 by Penman61

[JennyMominFL]

Just now, Penman61 said:

I appreciate your first-hand insights on this, since many (most?) of us are lucky enough to not have had that first-hand experience.  Thanks. :)

To be very clear, PTSD presents in many different ways. The vast majority of people with PTSD are not dangerous and do not commit crimes.

[TexasGal]

2 hours ago, cardigirl said:

A couple of reviews I have read have referenced the music that was playing on Alison's stereo, songs by Jason Isbell, Cover Me Up and Live Oak, and how the showrunner has said that the lyrics figure heavily into the content of the episode. Everything we need to know is in the lyrics. Hmmm.   

 

Also, I think someone needs to talk to Ben's wife.  

https://genius.com/Jason-isbell-cover-me-up-lyrics

https://genius.com/Jason-isbell-live-oak-lyrics

If the first song was in part 1 and the second in part 2, they just seem to reinforce what we saw in each one.  So she imagined both scenarios based on the songs she was listening to at the time?

[Diane12251]

We have as much information on that theory as we do on what the Detective said, that Alison was getting ready to commit suicide.  

[AngelaHunter]

9 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Ben was a creepy one.

 

Extremely creepy, like sociopathic, stalker-ish creepy, IMO. I thought so from the first time we met him. He seemed like someone who could ferret out a person's vulnerable spot and knew how to push those buttons. Of course Alison, so desperate for love and understanding, just accepted him at face value. Personally, I would never have gone out with him - a total stranger about whom she knew nothing - alone on that boat at the beginning. His urging her to drink was weird, I thought and I was expecting something bad to happen right then.

[stormy weather]

3 hours ago, bilgistic said:

You're certainly free to dislike Alison, but she didn't "wreck two marriages" on her own.

Absolutely, of course not. I was mostly criticizing her annoying and constant "I'm a victim of circumstances" attitude that often came across almost as if she had been forced into those toxic relationships or other life choices she made. It was not only her fault, obviously, but it was also her fault, and instead it felt like she never fully acknowledged her role in both situations and never took responsibility for any of her actions, often leaving others to wonder what they alone did wrong instead of sharing the guilt. It takes two to tango, and that goes both ways. 

Edited August 13, 2018 by stormy weather

[suomi]

34 minutes ago, Diane12251 said:

We have as much information on that theory as we do on what the Detective said, that Alison was getting ready to commit suicide.  

I totally agree, that was my point (and I wasn't singling out your post in particular). We have very little information about anything/anyone. I have no clue as to which scenes/conversations during three seasons are valid factors and which are not. Cole said that Gabriel's death did not change Alison, that she "has always been this way." Is that true or is it merely his perception? We don't know, we can only guess. Surely some events are logical/valid, shutting down the drug dealing being a good example of that But WTF with so much of the rest of it? I have to rely on quotes from interviews with the writer(s) to learn that James did not necessarily ask for a kidney? I think this guessing game style of writing and presenting a story is lazy, and a cop-out. 

This show is like Build-A-Bear.

Edited August 13, 2018 by suomi
typo

[Diane12251]

I don't remember James actually asking for a kidney - he just said that he needed one.  It was Athena who said that the only reason he contacted Alison was because he wanted one of her kidneys.

[Penman61]

13 minutes ago, suomi said:

I totally agree, that was my point (and I wasn't singling out your post in particular). We have very little information about anything/anyone. I have no clue as to which scenes/conversations during three seasons are valid factors and which are not. Cole said that Gabriel's death did not change Alison, that she "has always been this way." Is that true or is it merely his perception? We don't know, we can only guess. Surely some events are logical/valid, shutting down the drug dealing being a good example of that But WTF with so much of the rest of it? I have to rely on quotes from interviews with the writer(s) to learn that James did not necessarily ask for a kidney? I think this guessing game style of writing and presenting a story is lazy, and a cop-out. 

This show is like Build-A-Bear.

 

Yeah, I think Treem's unfortunate statement about Alison and her father's kidney is really bad (paraphrasing: "Maybe he asked for her kidney; maybe he didn't; depends on who's telling."). 

OF COURSE people experience events differently, especially when emotions are running high.  That murderous/suicidal emotional intensity may end up being the "justification" for this episode's epistemological ouroboros, but I'm hmphing and crossing my arms skeptically.   The events are still the events, regardless of varying experiences of them.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Penman61

[NutMeg]

Wow.

That's what I felt after watching the show. And because I don't know anybody who watches it, I rushed here.

So many different reactions, emotions, and interpretations...

So, before I start on how I understand this episode, I'd like to send to those who relived physical violence trauma while watching this not just my sympathy but some virtual equivalent of "I get you girl, it's been hell, it's over, you're gonna move on, you're gonna be alright", with many virtual hugs. I know it's inadequate, and I wish I could do more, but to all of you who were reminded of things you put behind or want to put behind, I'm sending my fiercest wishes and encouragements. You survived, you will survive, don't let the bastard get you down.

Back to the episode: I saw it as Alison preparing for a meet up scheduled a long time before. In the first version, she rehearses how she wants it to go, and it's the best case scenario. It's also the one where she's ready to spill her guts about her sense of culpability. So, she's expecting to get and to give total honesty, which, despite her intention to stay away from married men, could still let them get close. Of course, when faced with the real Ben, none of what she previously rehearsed works (the guy is seriously weird from the start).

For me, it was gut wrenching that she had such high expectations for that meeting, even while she was planning to end the relationship, she still was very hopeful that Ben would rise up to the challenge and be her ideal man. Fix her mundane problems, see her and love her as she is and with her past, and open up to her about his past. 

As I see it, the RPQ (?) must have come up earlier, maybe during that seminar, because it seems that while she knew of it, she didn't know the full story there.

Lastly, I think this is one of the best send off I've ever seen for an actress who leaves the show. Far from thinking there was any resentment, I see it as a last opportunity to honor the actress and her character in this series by giving her an amazing way to exit it. Plus that monologue at the end. It's clear that she's been very much valued by the show runners until the end.    

[suomi]

31 minutes ago, Diane12251 said:

I don't remember James actually asking for a kidney - he just said that he needed one.  It was Athena who said that the only reason he contacted Alison was because he wanted one of her kidneys.

First words out of his wife's mouth were "We're so grateful you came." After some getting-to-know-you, when the real conversation was beginning she said "We're so glad we found you," and Alison had a look on her face like WTH after both of those comments. But the comments made sense after they shared the news that he is ill and needs a transplant, his kids from his first marriage are the wrong blood type, their kids are too young to be viable donors and they hope that Alison, if compatible, will donate. They straight out asked for her kidney and offered to compensate her financially for donating it. 

Edited August 13, 2018 by suomi

[Pallas]

1 hour ago, TexasGal said:

If the first song was in part 1 and the second in part 2, they just seem to reinforce what we saw in each one.  So she imagined both scenarios based on the songs she was listening to at the time?

That's my theory. I think we may come in on "Part 1: Alison" after Ben has already come by, said his piece, and been turned away. Once he's gone, and as Alison cleans house for Joanie, she imagines two different scenarios. When she's done cleaning the house so that Jefferies finds it immaculate, with her keys, phone and wallet laid out, she heads for the jetty. 

[NutMeg]

Forgot to say, in version 1, the song Alison is listening to has an audible verse that is "No one can be trusted".   

[suomi]

On 8/12/2018 at 9:12 AM, Razzberry said:

This made my blood run cold -

 

I would have run when he started talking like that.

I was thinking "Please please please mumble something about trash pickup, keep listening and grab a trash bag, go to the fridge, throw a couple things in the bag and then mosey toward the door/the porch, open the door and run like fucking hell." My Heart Was Pounding!

[Bitsy]

41 minutes ago, NutMeg said:

As I see it, the RPQ (?) must have come up earlier, maybe during that seminar, because it seems that while she knew of it, she didn't know the full story there.

Unless there is something specific from a previous episode to suggest this, that's too hypothetical for me.  This episode in particular was meant to be deciphered and the clues were laid out in a specific way within the episode.

On a related note, there's a saying in scriptwriting that if you see a gun in Act 1, then that gun has to be used in Act 3.  It can't just show up and not affect the plot.  I see Ben's phone and the alleged texts it contained as the gun in Act 1, which conspicuously shows up again at the end of version #1's Act 3 but isn't used.

That bottle of alcohol Ben brings is another proverbial gun that I think is significant to version #1 in a way that has not yet been explained.  (It features heavily in the plot development of version #2.)  I just have a feeling that version #1 that we saw is the real version, but is very incomplete, and that we have yet to be let in on the remainder of what happened.

So I finally finished my re-watch.  Allison's voiceover at the end where she's addressing Ben and giving him a long speech about what kind of person she wants to be.  What would the context of that be?  When would she have said it?  Or if it wasn't something she literally said, when was she thinking it? 

Also, I'm afraid I'm going to have to contradict Cole when he said in last week's episode that Allison wouldn't commit suicide because she wouldn't leave Joanie.  I'm sure Cole would *like* to believe that about Allison.  But when was the last time Allison saw Joanie, mentioned Joanie, prioritized Joanie, or in any way indicated that Joanie is at the foremost of her thoughts?  Allison seems to have barely been aware of Joanie's existence  for a long time.  An entire episode from Allison's perspective and Joanie doesn't factor into it at all.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Bitsy

[LoveLeigh]

Spoiler

Since we are all speculating, I wanted to say this but it is against the forum's rules to discuss what is shown in previews so I spoiler tagged it. In the preview at the end of episode 8, it showed Alison walking in broad daylight all confused and distraught on the beach to what seemed like the ocean. Maybe that preview showed her walk to suicide? 

[Pallas]

The almost faceless, black-hooded figure who comes calling for Alison in the dark of night, then takes her limp body in his arms and carries her away from life, is Death. When she is ready, she answers his knock and invites him in. 

[LoveLeigh]

3 minutes ago, Bitsy said:

Also, I'm afraid I'm going to have to contradict Cole when he said in last week's episode that Allison wouldn't commit suicide because she wouldn't leave Joanie.  I'm sure Cole would *like* to believe that about Allison.  But when was the last time Allison saw Joanie, mentioned Joanie, prioritized Joanie, or in any way indicated that Joanie is at the foremost of her thoughts?  Allison seems to have barely been aware of Joanie's existence  for a long time.  An entire episode from Allison's perspective and Joanie doesn't factor into it at all.

And that seems to be a flaw in the writing, because she is drawn as such a caring mother to Gabriel... so why would she be so "absent" emotionally with regard to Joanie? Did her experience with Gabriel make her an emotionally distant mother? It's a flaw in the writing is what I think, not even worth analyzing in terms of Alison's character. 

Edited August 13, 2018 by DakotaLavender

[JennyMominFL]

2 hours ago, suomi said:

I was thinking "Please please please mumble something about trash pickup, keep listening and grab a trash bag, go to the fridge, throw a couple things in the bag and then mosey toward the door/the porch, open the door and run like fucking hell." My Heart Was Pounding!

That line, "why do you kill an ant?", tells me a a lot about his killing the child, IF it's the true story.  In one of my classes about Nazis, the Third Reich, I had to read a book called Ordinary Men by historian Christopher Browning. IT was about how ordinary men, with no real feelings of antisemitism , slowly turned into killers with no remorse. They were tailors, banker etc, before the war. They then became part of a police group sent to kill Jews and communists in the east. They weren't told what  they were going to do. When the first orders to kill, many backed out. Some helped people escape. Some got ill. But as time went by more and more of them joined in the killing.  BY the end they were hunting Jewish people,, in the woods, for sport. They had been conditioned, desensitized. They learned to view their victims as problems, as  the vermin of Nazi propaganda.

  And there can be a level of dehumanization in all military. When you are exposed, day after day to your friends dying, being maimed and killed, sometimes even by women and teenager, and when you yourself are injured and in pain, well you l sometimes lose the ability to see right from wrong.  It changes you in ways you cant imagine.  This is why they try not to keep people over there for long periods of time. IT breaks them. Those tailors and banker of the police battalion, some of them were fine with it and never regretted what they did. Others, later on, away from war, had to recognize the evil they created. Some could not live with it. Some broke. Some killed themselves. Some became violent.

Ants. Ben reached the point where any child  was an ant. He lost all sense of right and wrong. And it happens to ordinary men like Ben. I knows its easier to believe people like that were born monsters, but its not always the case.

Edited August 14, 2018 by JennyMominFL

[LoveLeigh]

1 minute ago, Pallas said:

The almost faceless, black-hooded figure who comes calling for Alison in the dark of night, then takes her limp body in his arms and carries her away from life, is Death. In both reveries, she answers his knock and invites him in.

That is sooooo Mulholland Drivesque! 

[LilaFowler]

4 hours ago, Pallas said:

Yes. And on third thought, I believe that each version is a fantasy. Together, the two stories and multiple Alisons are a Rorschach test that Alison leaves behind. Which story feels more real? Which story aligns with the ones we tell ourselves, about real people and events? And it's not always true. A Rorschach test for the audience. 

I said earlier that since the show doesn't do Truth, only highly-subjective POVs, we will probably never know if Allison was murdered or committed suicide unless her murderer confesses.

4 hours ago, Gemini Gipsy said:

Count me in for a lover of the opening song. I'm partial since I am a longtime Fioana Apple fan girl.

I do see the lyrics as reflecting Alison's death but it has had many meanings throughout the seasons. Could have started out as the proverbial death of the marriages being one example. You can always find a few different meanings in songs depending on the situation and the listeners POV.  Kind of fitting considering the premise of the show.

I like the Fiona Apple song, too. For some reason I always thought that it was referring to Noah, not Allsion.

Quote

 

I was screaming into the canyon
At the moment of my death
The echo I created
Outlasted my last breath

My voice it made an avalanche
And buried a man I never knew
And when he died his widowed bride

Met your daddy and they made you

I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean

 

How much of the series plot was Fiona Apple privy to when she wrote this song? Did she write it specifically for the show? The buried man I never knew could be Cole, and his widowed bride Luisa. Helen will be a widow soon, too. I'm probably reading way too much into this.
 

3 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Ever get the feeling we're putting more work into the story than the writers?

Definitely. If they wanted to present a murder, give us Ben's POV, not two from Allison. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure how I'd feel about a suicide POV, one that possibly ends with her staring down into the water, ready to fall/jump. That would be so dark.

[Bitsy]

3 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Since we are all speculating, I wanted to say this but it is against the forum's rules to discuss what is shown in previews so I spoiler tagged it. In the preview at the end of episode 8, it showed Alison walking in broad daylight all confused and distraught on the beach to what seemed like the ocean. Maybe that preview showed her walk to suicide? 

Spoiler

I'm pretty sure that was footage from Allison's attempt to drown herself in Season 1.

[Mindthinkr]

44 minutes ago, Bitsy said:

That bottle of alcohol Ben brings is another proverbial gun that I think is significant to version #1 in a way that has not yet been explained.  (It features heavily in the plot development of version #2.)  I just have a feeling that version #1 that we saw is the real version, but is very incomplete, and that we have yet to be let in on the remainder of what happened.

He’s funny like that. He also brought a bottle of wine on their boat ride. He’s in AA. Why get her to drink? To loosen her up for a conquest? People who aren’t alcoholics can enjoy a date without drinks. 

30 minutes ago, Pallas said:

The almost faceless, black-hooded figure who comes calling for Alison in the dark of night, then takes her limp body in his arms and carries her away from life, is Death. When she is ready, she answers his knock and invites him in. 

You’ve been very poetic lately. Please don’t stop. 

[Jax7917]

59 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

And that seems to be a flaw in the writing, because she is drawn as such a caring mother to Gabriel... so why would she be so "absent" emotionally with regard to Joanie? Did her experience with Gabriel make her an emotionally distant mother? It's a flaw in the writing is what I think, not even worth analyzing in terms of Alison's character. 

I think she made it clear she was kind of negligent with Gabriel too .. after being in the water too long , he was throwing up at night and had a fever or a bad headache and she didn't take him to the hospital , even as a nurse . Then wasn't it said that she didn't take him because she was mad at Cole ? 

The vibe I get from Allison is she's never really had a maternal instinct and she's always put guys over her children . They showed it with Joanie several times including her last encounter when she flew to California to see her ex husband without even a mention or care about leaving her daughter behind . When Noah mentioned Joanie and said he wished she was there so he could see her , she didn't even care to talk about Joanie or answer him . 

[Bitsy]

Refinery29 has an article discussing the music in the episode and how it pertains to each of Allison's versions.  While the lyrics do a good job of explaining what is going on within that portion of the episode, it doesn't indicate which version was true.

I rewatched the second half of Episode 8.  I have a new theory.  Ben was telling the truth to Cole and Noah.  He visited Allison at 7 pm and was there for 20 minutes.  Allison asked him about his wife and dumped him. He left and got drunk at a bar and was at his AA meeting by 10.  Meanwhile, she killed herself.  Ben didn't say anything to make her kill herself because he knew her for 6 weeks and what can you say to a person you barely knew to make her kill herself?  It didn't really have anything to do with him.

Neither of Allison's versions of what happened are true.  Both of them are just her fantasies of what could have been.  #1 is the "happy ending" version where Ben declares his love for her and they embark on a romance.  #2 is where he turns out to be a psycho who fucks her over the way she expects all men to do.

[Mindthinkr]

2 minutes ago, Bitsy said:

Neither of Allison's versions of what happened are true.  Both of them are just her fantasies of what could have been.  #1 is the "happy ending" version where Ben declares his love for her and they embark on a romance.  #2 is where he turns out to be a psycho who fucks her over the way she expects all men to do.

Then what is the truth? I’m sure we’ll have to wait until the end of the season, but I hope they don’t do all next season on this subject as well. 

[JennyMominFL]

5 minutes ago, Mindthinkr said:

Then what is the truth? I’m sure we’ll have to wait until the end of the season, but I hope they don’t do all next season on this subject as well. 

I have the feeling we will never know, which is how it is in real life much of the time.

 I think its poetic that she experienced her own secondary drowning, at least in the second version of events.

Edited August 14, 2018 by JennyMominFL

[LoveLeigh]

Alison was alive when Ben threw her into the water is version 2. What we heard her saying were her thoughts as she was carried away. She did drown and that is why the detective called her death a drowning. 

I think the writers scripted this end to fit the song, rather than the song being written years ago as some relevant theme for the ending of Alison. 

[Lemons]

42 minutes ago, Jaclyn88 said:

I think she made it clear she was kind of negligent with Gabriel too .. after being in the water too long , he was throwing up at night and had a fever or a bad headache and she didn't take him to the hospital , even as a nurse . Then wasn't it said that she didn't take him because she was mad at Cole ? 

The vibe I get from Allison is she's never really had a maternal instinct and she's always put guys over her children . They showed it with Joanie several times including her last encounter when she flew to California to see her ex husband without even a mention or care about leaving her daughter behind . When Noah mentioned Joanie and said he wished she was there so he could see her , she didn't even care to talk about Joanie or answer him . 

I forget if it was version #1 or #2 when she said she chose not to take Gabriel to the hospital because she was mad at Cole for flirting with another woman.  If that's true, that's pretty sick and I'm not sure how you live with something like that.  The child showed symptoms of distress. 

[Bitsy]

3 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

I think the writers scripted this end to fit the song, rather than the song being written years ago as some relevant theme for the ending of Alison. 

I agree.  I could swear that when the show first began, the writers said that the show would only be 3 seasons, all 3 seasons would revolve around the murder mystery involving Scotty Lockhart, and that they had a specific plan for each season.

And then the show turned out to be very popular and I think the writers totally abandoned their plan in order to keep the series going indefinitely.  They have been careening around without a clear focus ever since.   I definitely don't think they have it together enough to have planned out Allison's death from the beginning.

[mochamajesty]

47 minutes ago, Bitsy said:

Refinery29 has an article discussing the music in the episode and how it pertains to each of Allison's versions.  While the lyrics do a good job of explaining what is going on within that portion of the episode, it doesn't indicate which version was true.

I rewatched the second half of Episode 8.  I have a new theory.  Ben was telling the truth to Cole and Noah.  He visited Allison at 7 pm and was there for 20 minutes.  Allison asked him about his wife and dumped him. He left and got drunk at a bar and was at his AA meeting by 10.  Meanwhile, she killed herself.  Ben didn't say anything to make her kill herself because he knew her for 6 weeks and what can you say to a person you barely knew to make her kill herself?  It didn't really have anything to do with him.

Neither of Allison's versions of what happened are true.  Both of them are just her fantasies of what could have been.  #1 is the "happy ending" version where Ben declares his love for her and they embark on a romance.  #2 is where he turns out to be a psycho who fucks her over the way she expects all men to do.

So after 4 pages just like that you have a new theory? Ok.

This is what many have said all along. 

If we don't find out what happened, what's the point? 

[MBayGal]

WTF did I just watch?  We have two versions of reality from one character? Since she is dead in all the other characters' realities, she is dead.  But I don't think her second reality is really the way it played out, because she is a consistently unreliable narrator.

[Elizzikra]

20 minutes ago, Lemons said:

If that's true, that's pretty sick and I'm not sure how you live with something like that.  The child showed symptoms of distress. 

The child showed signs of swallowing a lot of salt water - which he had. I don’t think Alison kept Gabriel home to punish Cole but she was angry and let the anger cloud his judgment. Cole could have taken Gabriel to a hospital just as easily as Alison could have. They both own that mistake.

[Bitsy]

15 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

So after 4 pages just like that you have a new theory? Ok.

This is what many have said all along.

It's the stupid show's fault.  Anything can mean anything!  Or not mean anything!  Or not have happened!

1 minute ago, Elizzikra said:

The child showed signs of swallowing a lot of salt water - which he had. I don’t think Alison kept Gabriel home to punish Cole but she was angry and let the anger cloud his judgment. Cole could have taken Gabriel to a hospital just as easily as Alison could have. They both own that mistake.

Allison told the doctor in season 1 that her instinct was to put him to bed and let him sleep because he was so tired.  Cherry Lockhart said they all deferred to Allison's judgment because she was the mother and she was also a nurse.

I think years and years of poring over what happened causes Allison to come up with new self-blaming details.

[Toodleoo]

2 hours ago, LilaFowler said:

  Quote

 

I was screaming into the canyon
At the moment of my death
The echo I created
Outlasted my last breath

My voice it made an avalanche
And buried a man I never knew
And when he died his widowed bride

Met your daddy and they made you

I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean

 

 

I love the song. For me it evokes the image of some sort of storyteller folk singer from a century or two ago, plaintively warbling her tale by a fire.

 

(and I still want to buy it on iTunes)

Edited August 14, 2018 by Toodleoo

[taragel]

7 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Ever get the feeling we're putting more work into the story than the writers?

Yes, and I think this show is ambitious but I have trouble respecting it. As a storyteller you have to make choices, this "every possibility is valid because who knows the reality" seems really like they're shirking their responsibility, IMO.

Same reason I didn't care for The Sopranos ending...it didn't. Stories need endings. Make a choice. 

[DFWGina]

I have loved reading everyone’s ideas on the show.  I was shocked by part 2 but haven’t rewatched (probably won’t).  I guess we just have to wait and see or visualize it differently.  We each write our own endings to these shows (I never thought Tony Soprano died outside that diner —  I don’t hate on those who do though!) and in our minds it all sorts itself out... 

Interested to see what comes up in the next episode!

[MBayGal]

7 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Ever get the feeling we're putting more work into the story than the writers?

Comment of the night!!!

4 hours ago, Bitsy said:

That bottle of alcohol Ben brings is another proverbial gun that I think is significant to version #1 in a way that has not yet been explained.  (It features heavily in the plot development of version #2.) 

But in #2, he doesn't bring a bottle of wine (or flowers), so there is no overlap except that there is a bottle of some sort of alcohol in each of her fantasies. 

[Lemons]

2 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

The child showed signs of swallowing a lot of salt water - which he had. I don’t think Alison kept Gabriel home to punish Cole but she was angry and let the anger cloud his judgment. Cole could have taken Gabriel to a hospital just as easily as Alison could have. They both own that mistake.

That’s exactly what she said.  I forget if it was the first one or the second one but she said Cole wanted to take him to the hospital but she refused because she was upset that he was flirting all night.  Her words.  

 But of course  one of those stories is obviously false.  

[scrb]

BTW, moving money to a different account doesn’t necessarily indicate that Alison was providing for Joanie.

Unless that account was a Payable on Death or POD account naming only Joanie as the beneficiary.  It would have to be a lot of money to take care of her for life.

But what would a little girl under 10 do with a lot of cash?  Alison would have to trust that Cole will take care of her, without stealing any of the money.

Really she would have created a trust, with specific instructions about how all the money and other assets would go to her.  

I don’t know if they sold the Lobster Roll?  If they didn’t, her share of the income could be important.  Did she rent or own that home?  If she owned, that’s  a significant asset, a place with an oceanfront view.

If she didn’t spell out explicitly what was to be done, these assets might have to be dealt with in probate, which is a costly process.  

Now maybe she didn’t know all the legalities but if she was planning to commit suicide but wanted to provide for Joanie, she certainly could have done a lot more than move money to different accounts.

[lampwick]

12 hours ago, Gemini Gipsy said:

I really love your insight, your posts have been riveting and have even prompted me to go back and re-watch some scenes.

 

So I will ask you these questions of you don't mind- what do you make of the knocking? it seems she doesn't hear the knocking for a while in version #1, I can't recall if it is the same in version #2 but does this have something to do with the continuous loop referred to? 

 

There are several things that the writers made sure were very obvious- the phones on the chargers, the faucet/cut, the weather, the knocking and her wardrobe to name a few. 

I was having a hard time deciding whether is was brilliant or BS, I am going with Brilliant. Still doesn't mean I want to watch Noah and Cole play Nancy Drew all next season. Please no.

Speaking of phones on the chargers... during the whole first part I was thinking, okay what causes her to kill herself...and then she said something about doing the dishes after laying with Ben, and I thought, she’s going to go inside and check his phone and see a message from his wife that says something like I love you, can’t wait to see you...etc., and Alison will realize that this was all a fraud and loses it.  But then the second version started, and I was like what the what?  

[lampwick]

On 8/13/2018 at 1:34 AM, Bitsy said:

Nope.  At the end of version #1, Allison goes back to the sink and cuts her finger.  Version #2 doesn't start until she answers the door and Ben is standing there in the rain.  The way that they interrupted the action to put up the "Part 2: Allison" sign was very abrupt and clearly intended for a specific reason.  They wanted us to know that version #2 started RIGHT THERE.

I rewatched version #1.  Before they make love, Allison makes Ben promise not to mess with her heart and warns him that she wouldn't be able to take the pain.  As they are basking in the afterglow, Allison goes inside and plugs the charger cord into her phone on the coffee table.  Previously in version #1, Ben had unplugged her charger cord and plugged into his own phone.

It's not shown, but I think it's pretty obvious.  It was at that moment that Allison decided to take a glance at Ben's phone to look at those angry text messages he said he'd been getting all afternoon from the wife he claimed to have broken up with.  And of course, what Allison saw on his phone proved that he was lying.  That gave Allison the excuse she needed to kill herself and blame it on him.

The episode was done in a loop, tied together by Allison standing at the faucet.  When we see Allison at the very beginning, she's not waiting for Ben to come over.  She's actually standing there freaking out because she's so upset about what she saw on Ben's phone.  It's at that moment that she fantasizes/hallucinates the version where instead of being a guy who tricked her into falling for him, he's just a straight-up villain who murders her.

DUde - you beat me to mentioning the phone.  Reading your posts.... I simply don’t need to write anything!  Same wavelength and your reasoning is so on point! 

[LoveLeigh]

I am confused about the timeline of the sequence of events:

1. Alison goes out to Los Angeles and then she returns to Montauk. 

2. Cole is driving back from California and stops at Milwaukee at a conference Alison was supposed to attend, but she never showed up there. Ben IS there and he says he has no idea where Alison is. 

3. Cole hooks up with Noah and Anton in Chicago and they drive east to Montauk. In Easthampton, they are told Alison is dead of an apparent suicide by drowning.

4. Then, they go to find Ben to question him about his last visit with Alison at her place. 

So here's my confusion. If Ben murdered Alison in Montauk, when he was in Milwaukee was Alison already dead because she never showed up at that conference? So Ben killed her and went to that Milwaukee conference and then was back on Long Island after that when Noah and Cole arrived at his workplace to question him about Alison's death? It was a weekend conference and as Cole and Noah and Anton drove east they reached Montauk on Monday and Ben was back on LI because the weekend conference was over?

Does it make sense he would murder Alison and go to a conference? Well, maybe to give the appearance that all was right in his world. But his alibi was that she broke up with him and he got drunk and went to Riverhead to quit AA.

But, the timeline just seems off. 

Edited August 14, 2018 by DakotaLavender

[stormy weather]

3 hours ago, scrb said:

BTW, moving money to a different account doesn’t necessarily indicate that Alison was providing for Joanie.

Unless that account was a Payable on Death or POD account naming only Joanie as the beneficiary.  It would have to be a lot of money to take care of her for life.

But what would a little girl under 10 do with a lot of cash?  Alison would have to trust that Cole will take care of her, without stealing any of the money.

Really she would have created a trust, with specific instructions about how all the money and other assets would go to her.  

I don’t know if they sold the Lobster Roll?  If they didn’t, her share of the income could be important.  Did she rent or own that home?  If she owned, that’s  a significant asset, a place with an oceanfront view.

If she didn’t spell out explicitly what was to be done, these assets might have to be dealt with in probate, which is a costly process.  

Now maybe she didn’t know all the legalities but if she was planning to commit suicide but wanted to provide for Joanie, she certainly could have done a lot more than move money to different accounts.

I agree, this money transfer to Joanie is probably the only thing that shouldn't be taken as a proof that Allison was planning her suicide and taking care of business before going.

I'm saying this because she had just super randomly mentioned opening up a trust for Joanie to Athena, like Athena had done for her in the past, 2 or 3 episodes back, in a scene where such mention had no reason to exist (they weren't talking about money, education, funds or even Joanie at the moment) if not for being relevant to future developments. And since there was no follow-up on this intention of hers, I kinda expected that this opening a trust fund matter would later become something important for the plot, which it did because the detective brings it up as one of the main reasons that indicate Allison was planning to kill herself all along.

Edited August 14, 2018 by stormy weather

[Blakeston]

I'm really bothered that yet another TV series has chosen to depict a former servicemember as an ultra-violent, outright psychopath, who coldly mentions that during his deployment he used third-world children for target practice.

I get that there are a lot of ambiguities with this particular series, and we can't be sure of exactly what Ben said and did. But they're still reinforcing that over-the-top stereotype by depicting it at all.

[Razzberry]

19 hours ago, LilaFowler said:

How much of the series plot was Fiona Apple privy to when she wrote this song? Did she write it specifically for the show?

According to wiki she wrote the song long before ever meeting Treem, but hadn't recorded it.