S04.E01 Smoke

[Lonesome Rhodes]

One thing not mentioned is Chuck's estate.  Does HHM get out of some payment if death is by suicide?  Howard was consumed by avoiding the split of the firm and the requisite cash payouts were that to occur.  There's also the question of a massive life insurance policy, which is standard for equity partners at law firms of any size.  Hmmmm.  A fight over Chuck related to insurance?  It would be a nice symmetry for Jimmy's revenge.

I do fully expect one, last, slight of Jimmy by Chuck in being completely shut out of his will, if not a specific nasty remark or two directed towards him in that document. 

[Pike Ludwell]

4 hours ago, NutmegsDad said:

I'm going to say that, as we were waiting for a single, defining moment for Jimmy to "break bad" to turn into Saul, this episode did it over the course of a hour (minus commercials). Between Howard's obituary and the continuous line of mourners offering sympathy at the funeral service, Jimmy finally went into "fuck this Chuck was a fucking saint shit" mode, resulting in his cold response to Howard concerning the insurance.

I think that showing Jimmy's extended catatonic state was for a purpose - it involved his subconscious mind working through his "Chuck" issues and resolving conflicts - determining what sort of person he would be after that. When he came out of it he had adjusted to a sort of personality he could be comfortable with, all things considered.

Edited August 9, 2018 by Pat Hoolihan

[SoMuchTV]

On 8/8/2018 at 1:19 PM, LoneHaranguer said:

Did I miss something or did Chuck the prodigy never get a master's degree? That may explain why Jimmy didn't. Getting an LLM, even from a state university, would have gotten Jimmy much more respect than his online degree from American Samoa, but I could see Chuck not wanting Jimmy to surpass him in any way.

 

BTW, I liked how subtle the writers were in giving Gene a fake social security number. Doing three digits at a time disguised the middle double-zero that a clerk who understands the system so well ought to have noticed.

I was almost ready to come here and post - that's a goof!  Who ever gives an ssn as 3-3-3?  I've only ever heard them spoken as 3-2-4.  Little did I know it was all in the plan!  But I still am a little skeptical that the clerk would have read it back the same way.  But I'm okay with letting that one go.  She could well have not been "a clerk who understands the system".

[LoneHaranguer]

1 hour ago, SoMuchTV said:

I was almost ready to come here and post - that's a goof!  Who ever gives an ssn as 3-3-3?  I've only ever heard them spoken as 3-2-4.  Little did I know it was all in the plan!  But I still am a little skeptical that the clerk would have read it back the same way.  But I'm okay with letting that one go.  She could well have not been "a clerk who understands the system".

Reading it back the same way makes it easier for the person to confirm that she got it right. She knew the system well enough to know that the first three digits of the number indicates where somebody Gene's age was probably from. It was just nine digits on the screen with no separators, and she was distracted by it not working, so it's plausible she didn't notice, but I think the point was for viewers not to notice.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, Pat Hoolihan said:

I think that showing Jimmy's extended catatonic state was for a purpose - it involved his subconscious mind working through his "Chuck" issues and resolving conflicts - determining what sort of person he would be after that. When he came out of it he had adjusted to a sort of personality he could be comfortable with, all things considered.

That, or he was faking it until he was sure nobody would blame him somehow?

[Dev F]

30 minutes ago, LoneHaranguer said:

Reading it back the same way makes it easier for the person to confirm that she got it right. She knew the system well enough to know that the first three digits of the number indicates where somebody Gene's age was probably from. It was just nine digits on the screen with no separators, and she was distracted by it not working, so it's plausible she didn't notice, but I think the point was for viewers not to notice.

I doubt it's meant to be a plot point, even -- it's probably just that the writers can't use someone's real SSN and are trying to disguise that they're using a fake one instead. Within the story, presumably the Disappearer is using real, stolen SSNs or whatever, not obviously fake ones.

Edited August 10, 2018 by Dev F

[wendyg]

Yes: it wouldn't make any sense for Ed, the Disappearer to use fake SSNs, when they'd be so easily spotted any time the Disappeared got a job, applied for credit, or went to a doctor (presumably, Gene has medical insurance, too). So the SSN is stolen but real, and the big risk is that instead of having been assigned to a child who died young it in fact belongs to someone who is alive and encountering difficulties and reporting them. (People do get caught for this.)

Gilligan said on the DVD commentary to the end of BB that a guy who did a similar job (not for criminals as much as people who just wanted to disappear, such as victims of domestic violence) found that the hardest thing about keeping his clients disappeared is that they would call home. Saul didn't seem to have anyone in his life that he'd be likely to call, but he's living under great strain with his true personality suppressed (as he did as Jimmy) and enormous fear of being caught by very small things. In the opener to S2 of BCS, for example, when he was trapped in the garbage collection area, he waited for an hour or something for someone else to come rather than sound the alarm by exiting using the emergency door. He's not going to be able to live like this for all that long.

[Clanstarling]

18 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

One thing not mentioned is Chuck's estate.  Does HHM get out of some payment if death is by suicide?  Howard was consumed by avoiding the split of the firm and the requisite cash payouts were that to occur.  There's also the question of a massive life insurance policy, which is standard for equity partners at law firms of any size.  Hmmmm.  A fight over Chuck related to insurance?  It would be a nice symmetry for Jimmy's revenge.

I do fully expect one, last, slight of Jimmy by Chuck in being completely shut out of his will, if not a specific nasty remark or two directed towards him in that document. 

I don't think it will be officially ruled a suicide, and doubt Howard would go around proclaiming it to anyone but Jimmy, so I don't think that will be an issue for that or life insurance (which, even if it was, my understanding is that the suicide clause is generally only in effect for a relatively short time frame after taking out the insurance.

Yeah, I'd bet Chuck's will will have a spite clause of some sort.

16 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

I was almost ready to come here and post - that's a goof!  Who ever gives an ssn as 3-3-3?  I've only ever heard them spoken as 3-2-4.  Little did I know it was all in the plan!  But I still am a little skeptical that the clerk would have read it back the same way.  But I'm okay with letting that one go.  She could well have not been "a clerk who understands the system".

I rewatched the scene, and for me it didn't sound like 3-3-3. He was interrupted after the first three by the clerk, and then continued - finishing off with the remaining numbers. He did pause after the third digit - but I don't find it hard to believe that he'd say "OO8" instead of "OO" ("o" instead of zero). Two zeros, voiced as the letter o, are just begging for another number to tie them up (yeah, I'm weird). Some of us use a rhythm to say numbers we have to memorize - some numbers fall trippingly from the tongue, others not so much. Back when we used to have to memorize telephone numbers, there were those I could always remember because they had a fluid pattern, others I could never remember for the opposite reason. (in my opinion the two zeros would have stood out just as well both ways).

As for the clerk, the software looked antique, and I doubt it would include separators, so reading three numbers at a time makes sense to me in terms of keeping your place when reading them out to verify them. She is clearly meant to understand the system, as she knew what the first three numbers indicated.

Edited August 10, 2018 by Clanstarling

[ShadowFacts]

23 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I don't think it will be officially ruled a suicide, and doubt Howard would go around proclaiming it to anyone but Jimmy, so I don't think that will be an issue for that or life insurance (which, even if it was, my understanding is that the suicide clause is generally only in effect for a relatively short time frame after taking out the insurance.

I agree, unless he left a voicemail or something, there's no proof of suicide, and policies usually have a one or two year suicide exclusion limit.  I do think there will be some sort of financial fight that Jimmy gets involved in with HHM, and probably lose since he spends his Saul years in a strip mall.  I'm struggling to remember if the check Howard gave Chuck came from his personal account, I think it did.  So Chuck's partnership share could still come into play but I peg Rebecca as the more likely heir.  Or those charities that Chuck founded or was on the boards of. 

[lovinbob]

On 8/7/2018 at 5:41 PM, peeayebee said:

When we first see him, I was confused as to who he was. He looked and walked somewhat like Mike, but he sounded like Jimmy, at least to me. I assume Mike chose to steal HIS badge because of the resemblance.

For me he was a dead ringer for Gene, down to the glasses. 

On 8/8/2018 at 11:24 AM, wendyg said:

A small point: I really love the detail that Juan Bolsa translates to "Johnny Sack".

Ha! Never caught that before. 

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I agree, unless he left a voicemail or something, there's no proof of suicide, and policies usually have a one or two year suicide exclusion limit.  I do think there will be some sort of financial fight that Jimmy gets involved in with HHM, and probably lose since he spends his Saul years in a strip mall.  I'm struggling to remember if the check Howard gave Chuck came from his personal account, I think it did.  So Chuck's partnership share could still come into play but I peg Rebecca as the more likely heir.  Or those charities that Chuck founded or was on the boards of. 

Regarding the $3 million check, here is what was said:

Howard: Just take this.

Chuck: $3 million?

Howard: The first of three payments, as per the partnership agreement.

Chuck: The firm can't afford this. Are you You're not shutting down, are you?

Howard: I would never endanger the firm. This is mostly from my personal funds. And a few loans.

Chuck: You're paying me out of your own pocket.

I take that to mean that the check was written on a HHM bank account, but Howard had contributed personal funds, including borrowed funds, to HHM in order to cover the most of the $3 million.

This would seem to put Howard in a position where his financial condition is entirely dependent upon the future of HHM.  He apparently put almost all his cash into HHM to pay off chuck (thus the loans) and borrowed more.   If HHM goes under, he will never get the money back from HHM and will be in debt.  

I also would assume that Rebecca and or the charities would get the bulk of Chuck's estate.  I could possibly see a legal technicality where he had an old will that left his assets to "my wife, Rebecca" which Jimmy might argue no longer applies since they are divorced.  I could also see a will written in the last year or so of Chuck's life, which wrote Jimmy out, being contested on the grounds that Chuck was not of sound mind.   

I agree that given Jimmy's status in BB, it seems unlikely that Jimmy ends up inheriting millions from Chuck, especially when he should be expecting over $1 million from Sandpiper.  

[ShadowFacts]

The fact that Gene was speaking kind of haltingly was the thing that stood out to me, but the clerk would have been used to that from people who had just been treated for an injury or illness.  Saul would have known that providers don't need SSNs unless Medicare/Medicaid is paying.  Even if they insist, the last 4 digits should be enough.  But we had to be shown that Gene was terrified of the many ways he could be found.  He got a double dose that night with thinking the taxi driver was making a facial ID.  That's why working in a mall only a couple states away from New Mexico might not have been the right placement.  Too much exposure to the public. 

[wendyg]

ShadowFacts: IME medical personnel in the US always ask for SSNs - medical insurance apparently requires them. The only way I know of that you don't have to supply one is if you pay cash. Certainly in that time period, anyway. Happy to be corrected about the present.

[LoneHaranguer]

1 hour ago, wendyg said:

Certainly in that time period, anyway.

Has anyone associated with the show clarified when that was? I presumed it was just after Saul became Gene because of how skittish he is, but maybe he never gets comfortable being in hiding.

[Clanstarling]

25 minutes ago, LoneHaranguer said:

Has anyone associated with the show clarified when that was? I presumed it was just after Saul became Gene because of how skittish he is, but maybe he never gets comfortable being in hiding.

As I recall, they were a bit coy as to whether it was during the timeline of Breaking Bad (when Walt and Saul went into hiding) or after the end of Breaking Bad.

[preeya]

15 hours ago, LoneHaranguer said:

Has anyone associated with the show clarified when that was? I presumed it was just after Saul became Gene because of how skittish he is, but maybe he never gets comfortable being in hiding.

Check out this video, it's both informative and hilarious:  https://goo.gl/itmeLP

And here is another:  https://goo.gl/d5ovMG

Edited August 11, 2018 by preeya

[BradandJanet]

I'm betting Jimmy is excluded from Chuck's will too, but I'm not sure how he would contest it and win. It would be the last nail in the McGill family coffin. If Jimmy tries to contest, it will be as Saul Goodman in character if not in name. 

[Colorado David]

On 8/6/2018 at 8:39 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

Jimmy had his faults and was briefly full Saul Goodman when he ruined Irene's life to get his money sooner.

But, after Kim's accident, he undid the damage at great cost to his cash flow and reputation with the geezers.  He also tried to patch things up with Chuck.  

It seemed like he was pulling back from becoming Saul, but now he seems to be Saul.  His reaction to Howard was the most evil we've seen Jimmy on BCS.

loved Jimmy not giving Howard any consolation at all, in fact condemning him 'well i guess that's your cross to bear.' That is stone cold, good for you Jimmy.

[Gemma Violet]

On 8/8/2018 at 4:17 PM, LoneHaranguer said:

Mike needed to protect himself. If the place were to come under scrutiny and security was poor,  the scheme would fall apart.

 

Yeah, I figured Mike was on the job because if it was suspected his paycheck was part of a money laundering scheme, he'd have a lot of witnesses (his co-workers) who could say they saw him on the job doing the work of a security consultant.  Even the ones who didn't talk with him surely noticed him moving about the place with a clipboard.

[wendyg]

LoneHaranguer: Not based on any sort of evidence (I don't think), but my feeling has always been that BCS picks up about six months after Saul's vanishment from BB. He's had time to establish a routine, learn his job (on one of the DVD commentaries, Odenkirk says he went through the Cinnabon training program to learn all the bun-making moves), etc. The complete action of BB takes two years, beginning when the show first aired in 2008. So I'm guessing that we're seeing Gene in 2011.

[shapeshifter]

22 hours ago, Colorado David said:

loved Jimmy not giving Howard any consolation at all, in fact condemning him 'well i guess that's your cross to bear.' That is stone cold, good for you Jimmy.

I just listened to the podcast (https://audioboom.com/posts/6962000-401-better-call-saul-insider ) and, regarding this moment, I'm pretty sure it was Bob Odenkirk's idea to have Jimmy turn away for a moment and smile just before delivering the that's-your-cross-to-bear line, to cement and signify that this is the moment Jimmy makes the turn into being Saul. Did anyone else get that from the podcast?

[SunnyBeBe]

23 hours ago, Colorado David said:

loved Jimmy not giving Howard any consolation at all, in fact condemning him 'well i guess that's your cross to bear.' That is stone cold, good for you Jimmy.

I agree.  I actually got annoyed with Howard reading that obit, because, the obit was just a very detailed resume of Chuck's professional accomplishments.  Yeah, that's common with top notch attorneys, but, also what is common, are the parts about the family.  How they were loved and cherished by their kids, cousins, sibling, friends, the community, etc.  It seems that the family was a thorn in his side and not to be bothered with.  Ok.......it would piss me off.  So, I wasn't sure if Jimmy was overwhelmed with Chuck's accolades or disgusted that there was nothing said about his heart, love, family, etc. 

And, what the hell is wrong with Howard that he had to unload that Chuck committed suicide? That's a huge burden for a family member to carry.  And, when you're not sure, you should keep your mouth shut.  The only purpose in providing this personal and BS opinion was for Howard to relieve his conscience OR make Jimmy feel worse or so Howard thought.   So, Howard deserves what he gets, imo.  

I could barely stand to watch Chuck as he annoyed me to no end.  Thank God, he's gone and while Jimmy may have a rough road ahead, at least he's free of Chuck.  

[Gobi]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I agree.  I actually got annoyed with Howard reading that obit, because, the obit was just a very detailed resume of Chuck's professional accomplishments.  Yeah, that's common with top notch attorneys, but, also what is common, are the parts about the family.  How they were loved and cherished by their kids, cousins, sibling, friends, the community, etc.  It seems that the family was a thorn in his side and not to be bothered with.  Ok.......it would piss me off.  So, I wasn't sure if Jimmy was overwhelmed with Chuck's accolades or disgusted that there was nothing said about his heart, love, family, etc. 

And, what the hell is wrong with Howard that he had to unload that Chuck committed suicide? That's a huge burden for a family member to carry.  And, when you're not sure, you should keep your mouth shut.  The only purpose in providing this personal and BS opinion was for Howard to relieve his conscience OR make Jimmy feel worse or so Howard thought.   So, Howard deserves what he gets, imo.  

I could barely stand to watch Chuck as he annoyed me to no end.  Thank God, he's gone and while Jimmy may have a rough road ahead, at least he's free of Chuck.  

I think Howard felt that suicide was suspected (they all knew how careful Chuck was with the lamps) and sincerely blamed himself, and thus wanted to ease Jimmy's conscience over the Bar hearing.  But then, I'm a Howard fan.

[preeya]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I could barely stand to watch Chuck as he annoyed me to no end.  Thank God, he's gone and while Jimmy may have a rough road ahead, at least he's free of Chuck.  

Me too!

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, Gobi said:

I think Howard felt that suicide was suspected (they all knew how careful Chuck was with the lamps) and sincerely blamed himself, and thus wanted to ease Jimmy's conscience over the Bar hearing.  But then, I'm a Howard fan.

Oh, well that's one way to look at it.  Thanks. 

[toodles]

I have been hesitant to post about this but I'm to go ahead.  My SIL committed suicide 25 years ago.  I can tell you from personal experience that it sets off an atomic bomb for everyone left behind and there are casualties.  You are never, ever the same.  I'm not going in to detail, but untreated mental illness was involved as well as some extremely bad choices on her part.

What's left are questions and guilt.  Neither ever goes away.  

Did Jimmy dump on Howard?  Yes.  Is that how he really feels?  Maybe.  But I'm willing to bet his guilt is almost unbearable.  With suicide, there is more than enough guilt and blame to go around.  I'm sure Kim has her share of guilt too.  Remember what happened to Jane's dad on Bb.  He looked ok on the outside, but on the inside?  Not so much.

I guess I'm done but this is more than enough to turn a basically sweet guy into the cold, cynical Saul.

[shapeshifter]

20 minutes ago, toodles said:

With suicide, there is more than enough guilt and blame to go around.

I've always just said it as "more than enough guilt to go around," but, yes, blame too. And whether it's a suicide or an accidental overdose or something in between, there's still more than enough guilt to go around. The writers didn't mention this in the episode's podcast, but they did stress how important the audience's comprehension of the story was to them, so I would expect the guilt and blame to be addressed again in a future episode. Or maybe it doesn't need to be put in the dialogue since Jimmy's metamorphosis into Saul demonstrates the effect of the guilt and blame. 

[toodles]

38 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I've always just said it as "more than enough guilt to go around," but, yes, blame too. And whether it's a suicide or an accidental overdose or something in between, there's still more than enough guilt to go around. The writers didn't mention this in the episode's podcast, but they did stress how important the audience's comprehension of the story was to them, so I would expect the guilt and blame to be addressed again in a future episode. Or maybe it doesn't need to be put in the dialogue since Jimmy's metamorphosis into Saul demonstrates the effect of the guilt and blame. 

And anger.  I forgot to add that.  The anger is huge for a long time.  It often comes out in inappropriate ways.

Edited August 13, 2018 by toodles

[shapeshifter]

10 minutes ago, toodles said:

And anger.  I forgot to add that.  The anger is huge for a long time.  It often comes out in inappropriate ways.

Anger is considered one of the stages of grief, isn't it? Regardless, even though these 7 stages of grief have been pretty much canonized in at least Western society, they are just a useful construct. Still, looking at Jimmy in this episode (and remembering the callousness of Saul), I don't think we ever see him really angry after the death of Chuck. It's like in that moment when Jimmy whistles as he feeds the (cold) fish, his grieving process is arrested. Maybe in the series finale we will see Gene finally complete his grieving—for Chuck, his parents, and Kim (whether she is lost to him through death or simple absence)—or maybe not.

[toodles]

13 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Anger is considered one of the stages of grief, isn't it? Regardless, even though these 7 stages of grief have been pretty much canonized in at least Western society, they are just a useful construct. Still, looking at Jimmy in this episode (and remembering the callousness of Saul), I don't think we ever see him really angry after the death of Chuck. It's like in that moment when Jimmy whistles as he feeds the (cold) fish, his grieving process is arrested. Maybe in the series finale we will see Gene finally complete his grieving—for Chuck, his parents, and Kim (whether she is lost to him through death or simple absence)—or maybe not.

Since this is tv, they may skip it.  But I promise you it's there.

[ShadowFacts]

10 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Anger is considered one of the stages of grief, isn't it? Regardless, even though these 7 stages of grief have been pretty much canonized in at least Western society, they are just a useful construct. Still, looking at Jimmy in this episode (and remembering the callousness of Saul), I don't think we ever see him really angry after the death of Chuck. It's like in that moment when Jimmy whistles as he feeds the (cold) fish, his grieving process is arrested. Maybe in the series finale we will see Gene finally complete his grieving—for Chuck, his parents, and Kim (whether she is lost to him through death or simple absence)—or maybe not.

I'd say that's how that scene struck me -- Jimmy is not just arresting the grief, he's shutting down all emotion regarding what happened with and to Chuck.  He knows his part in Chuck's downfall, his chicanery and what it led to, and that it's too late, none of it can ever be undone.  That's a whole load of guilt he looks like he's deciding to bury.  Howard can bear his cross, but Jimmy is throwing his off, at least he thinks he is. 

[SunnyBeBe]

One thing that I did appreciate as so realistic with some of the post Chuck death scenes, was how they allowed Jimmy and Kim to have sustained silence following Chuck's death.  They spoke some, like outside the burned house,  but, there were long periods where they said nothing.  Kim gave a pat on the back, a stiff drink, hug, and just sat next to Jimmy.  Much can be said without a lot of chitchat. I thought that was a great touch.  I think that an actor who can convey so much, without a lot of dialogue is so talented.  I like that about Odenkirk and Jonathon Banks. They really are gifted that way, imo. 

[Tikichick]

19 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I agree.  I actually got annoyed with Howard reading that obit, because, the obit was just a very detailed resume of Chuck's professional accomplishments.  Yeah, that's common with top notch attorneys, but, also what is common, are the parts about the family.  How they were loved and cherished by their kids, cousins, sibling, friends, the community, etc.  It seems that the family was a thorn in his side and not to be bothered with.  Ok.......it would piss me off.  So, I wasn't sure if Jimmy was overwhelmed with Chuck's accolades or disgusted that there was nothing said about his heart, love, family, etc. 

 

 

12 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I'd say that's how that scene struck me -- Jimmy is not just arresting the grief, he's shutting down all emotion regarding what happened with and to Chuck.  He knows his part in Chuck's downfall, his chicanery and what it led to, and that it's too late, none of it can ever be undone.  That's a whole load of guilt he looks like he's deciding to bury.  Howard can bear his cross, but Jimmy is throwing his off, at least he thinks he is. 

Jimmy is attempting to sell himself the idea he can avoid the grief and stick with the anger because for the most part all anyone else knows about Chuck is his laundry list of accomplishments.  Oddly enough almost no one actually knows that the accomplished side of Chuck was not in fact his best side.  Jimmy, Rebecca, Ernesto, possibly Kim and Howard are seemingly the only ones who did or may have insight into the actual best parts of Chuck.  Jimmy needs to work double time to keep out the thoughts of the brother he actually needs to mourn.

Not showing Ernesto at all in the episode seemed all kinds of wrong to me, and not the kind of detail this show ordinarily overlooks.  

ETA  I think Chuck will turn out to be similar to Prince -- ultimately unable to envision and concede there will be a time they cannot be fully in control of their domain.  There will be no will. 

Edited August 13, 2018 by Tikichick
Forgotten thought.

[nodorothyparker]

On 8/12/2018 at 2:12 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

And, what the hell is wrong with Howard that he had to unload that Chuck committed suicide? That's a huge burden for a family member to carry.  And, when you're not sure, you should keep your mouth shut.  The only purpose in providing this personal and BS opinion was for Howard to relieve his conscience OR make Jimmy feel worse or so Howard thought.   So, Howard deserves what he gets, imo. 

I'm glad you raised this point.  I said this last season after the finale and I still think it here.  The fact that it wasn't a clear-cut suicide, that none of these people will never ever really truly know what happened, even with their suspicions, is going to be a huge thing for each of them to carry going forward.  Howard or Jimmy each have their own guilt over what they know they did and what they think happened as a result, but in the end it's all just supposition and they now have live with that.  

I know we all want to focus on Jimmy's culpability in tipping off the insurance, which yes, did set the wheels in motion for Howard to do what he did, but that was still a scene of him going to Jimmy who'd had a long and troubled relationship with the brother he'd just buried and blubbering for absolution while raising the specter of a suicide he believed was provoked.  I'm not sure if someone did that to me in a similar situation my immediate reaction would be much kinder than Jimmy's.

[ShadowFacts]

37 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Not showing Ernesto at all in the episode seemed all kinds of wrong to me, and not the kind of detail this show ordinarily overlooks.  

Well, Chuck did get Ernesto fired for essentially being loyal to Jimmy, so maybe Ernesto just wasn't feeling it.  Wanted to be done with the McGills.  I could see that. 

[Captanne]

I have never liked the character of Howard (I find him a two dimensional villain and nothing bores me more -- except "good" characters who want to remain in the villain's orbit which is why I find it hard to warm to Kim.  That side of her -- the long suffering Cinderella in the file room -- bores the tears out of me.)  

The episode was very good but I didn't really see anything to get me excited about the new season.  I do really look forward to it all unrolling.  (I love the series so I'm patient.)

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

Well, Chuck did get Ernesto fired for essentially being loyal to Jimmy, so maybe Ernesto just wasn't feeling it.  Wanted to be done with the McGills.  I could see that. 

I'd absolutely agree with you -- if the Ernesto that we were shown wasn't such a thoroughly decent guy, always patient and accepting of Chuck's over the top demands.  Ernie was a good egg, he would have shown up because showing up and paying your respects is the right thing to do.

[SunnyBeBe]

21 minutes ago, Captanne said:

I have never liked the character of Howard (I find him a two dimensional villain and nothing bores me more -- except "good" characters who want to remain in the villain's orbit which is why I find it hard to warm to Kim.  That side of her -- the long suffering Cinderella in the file room -- bores the tears out of me.)  

The episode was very good but I didn't really see anything to get me excited about the new season.  I do really look forward to it all unrolling.  (I love the series so I'm patient.)

I agree with the boldface above, but, I admit that I am excited.  I'm glad that I am able to return to to watching the show. The Chuck character made that impossible for me. I'm not wild about Howard either.  

Edited August 13, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Tikichick]

22 minutes ago, Captanne said:

I have never liked the character of Howard (I find him a two dimensional villain and nothing bores me more -- except "good" characters who want to remain in the villain's orbit which is why I find it hard to warm to Kim.  That side of her -- the long suffering Cinderella in the file room -- bores the tears out of me.)  

The episode was very good but I didn't really see anything to get me excited about the new season.  I do really look forward to it all unrolling.  (I love the series so I'm patient.)

Kim as a long-suffering Cinderella?  Not in my book.  She has a plan and she's going to succeed, under her own efforts.  She will not be broken, no matter what you throw at her.  She is tempted now and then to walk on the wild side.  She's strong and independent without the need to be an abrasive bitch to prove herself. 

One of the best written females for the screen ever.

[Captanne]

I agree about Kim being strong and able to endure.  I do like her character -- which is why I said "that side of her" and specified the file room saga doesn't interest me.  The rest of her character's arc has been very interesting to me. 

[ShadowFacts]

12 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I'd absolutely agree with you -- if the Ernesto that we were shown wasn't such a thoroughly decent guy, always patient and accepting of Chuck's over the top demands.  Ernie was a good egg, he would have shown up because showing up and paying your respects is the right thing to do.

Even good eggs have limits, though.  Chuck used him in his plan to ensnare Jimmy, then discarded him afterward.  I don't know how much respect Ernie would have left to pay Chuck after that.  Or . . . maybe he just had to leave Albuquerque to get a new job.  Being fired from a prestigious law firm might have made it tough for him.

[LoneHaranguer]

On 8/12/2018 at 10:43 AM, Gemma Violet said:

Yeah, I figured Mike was on the job because if it was suspected his paycheck was part of a money laundering scheme, he'd have a lot of witnesses (his co-workers) who could say they saw him on the job doing the work of a security consultant.  Even the ones who didn't talk with him surely noticed him moving about the place with a clipboard.

Wasn't one of Mike's complaints that nobody really noticed him? The manager and the guy he chewed out will, and he put himself on record with his list of security issues. That should be enough. Mike will have a second layer of protection if anyone does anything about the more suspicious items on his list, like the duplicate numbering and doing things outside the electronic systems, that a regulator might notice.

[wendyg]

16 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Anger is considered one of the stages of grief, isn't it? Regardless, even though these 7 stages of grief

Five stages, as identified by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. For a brilliantly worked example, see Bob Fosse's movie ALL THAT JAZZ.

[Tikichick]

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Even good eggs have limits, though.  Chuck used him in his plan to ensnare Jimmy, then discarded him afterward.  I don't know how much respect Ernie would have left to pay Chuck after that.  Or . . . maybe he just had to leave Albuquerque to get a new job.  Being fired from a prestigious law firm might have made it tough for him.

I hope not.  Ernie deserved to be rewarded for being such a decent guy.

That's what this show does to me, makes me pay attention to a very supporting character -- and root for him.  

[shapeshifter]

19 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I hope not.  Ernie deserved to be rewarded for being such a decent guy.

That's what this show does to me, makes me pay attention to a very supporting character -- and root for him.  

Spoiler

I *think* I heard in the podcast that Ernesto is returning.

[JudyObscure]

3 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Kim as a long-suffering Cinderella?  Not in my book.  She has a plan and she's going to succeed, under her own efforts.  She will not be broken, no matter what you throw at her.  She is tempted now and then to walk on the wild side.  She's strong and independent without the need to be an abrasive bitch to prove herself. 

One of the best written females for the screen ever.

Agree one hundred percent.  I like the fairy tale Cinderella just fine ( hard working, good morals)  but when therapists talk about a woman having a Cinderella complex they're implying that she expects some rich  man (a prince maybe) to come  along and save her.  Kim has always made it perfectly clear that she doesn't need Jimmy or anyone else to save her -- she saves herself.  All that hard work at the firm was not because she was an uncomplaining doormat, but because she knew she was being punished for something and she was determined to take that punishment with a stiff upper lip and then move forward.

[Quilt Fairy]

On 8/7/2018 at 12:31 PM, Penman61 said:

So, professionally, what did Chuck do between ages ~25 and ~40?  I might have missed that in Howard's reading of the obit.

He had 2 pretty significant clerking (assistant to a judge) positions.  I don't know how long clerkships typically last, but IIRC the premier ones can be very competitive. 

[SunnyBeBe]

On 8/12/2018 at 10:43 AM, Gemma Violet said:

Yeah, I figured Mike was on the job because if it was suspected his paycheck was part of a money laundering scheme, he'd have a lot of witnesses (his co-workers) who could say they saw him on the job doing the work of a security consultant.  Even the ones who didn't talk with him surely noticed him moving about the place with a clipboard.

I'll have to catch up. I didn't watch much last season.  I was thinking that this in depth security mission might be to lay the groundwork for later on.  Like, if any kind of ISSUE with the shipments looks awry, it's documented that their security measures in the warehouse are terrible.  Just guessing. 

[Clanstarling]

5 hours ago, Tikichick said:

I'd absolutely agree with you -- if the Ernesto that we were shown wasn't such a thoroughly decent guy, always patient and accepting of Chuck's over the top demands.  Ernie was a good egg, he would have shown up because showing up and paying your respects is the right thing to do.

Ernesto could have showed up and paid his respects, while staying out of sight. I'm going to fan wank it that he was there, but out of respect for Jimmy did shove himself forward to give condolences, because of his role in Chuck's (and Jimmy's) feud. He may well feel as guilty as the others, with far less justification. Because he is, as you say, a good egg.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Ernesto could have showed up and paid his respects, while staying out of sight. I'm going to fan wank it that he was there, but out of respect for Jimmy did shove himself forward to give condolences, because of his role in Chuck's (and Jimmy's) feud. He may well feel as guilty as the others, with far less justification. Because he is, as you say, a good egg.

While I agree with this, I thought I heard

Spoiler

on the podcast that Ernesto was not at the funeral because of having been fired—but I think the writers were just doing a little fanwanking of their own, and that it was just that the actor wasn't available, or they hadn't considered having him show up.