S01.E05: Closer

[Penman61]

36 minutes ago, zobot81 said:

I misspoke in my first post in this thread: For the first time in the series, Adora does Camille a kindness.

 

The truth is, I never loved you.

 

This is the truth that Camille needs to hear from her mother.  While those words sound impossibly cruel and cold on the face of it, at least they have the power to shatter the mother myth for Camille, once and for all.  They certainly have an immediately devastating effect on her, but I think with time, she'll come to accept that Adora never did love her, and that she in fact understood it along.

Of course, I was initially gutted for poor Camille.  But that pain subsided into relief.  Because maybe she can finally get past the maternal love fantasy, and get on with the real possibility that love exists.

I think Camille has what it takes to reclaim her life.  That is my newest and best hope for our so badly damaged protagonist -- to find a little bit of true love for herself.  And forgiveness.

This is a very optimistic reading.  I still think Adora was being unbearably selfish and needlessly cruel. 

If Adora truly wanted to help Camille while still telling the truth, Adora instead could have said some version of:

Every parent should love their child.  You deserve love.  But something was broken in me and I just couldn't give it. It was not your fault.

[hendersonrocks]

Quote

I think Camille's boss did her a GREAT disservice by insisting she go there to cover the story. There was NO ONE else? They sound like they are supposed to be close, but a cutter alcoholic whose issues arise from her family and hometown should not be sent back to her family and hometown!

It seems to me like he sent her back knowing full well how broken she is and that whatever happened in Wind Gap is part of it, but he - for whatever reason - felt like she needed to confront the issues AND that the story of these two girls from her hometown was her best chance to get writing (and printed) again.

[Alice Mudgarden]

5 hours ago, Buttless said:

JC; I am totally missing all these words. And Im kinda glad about that, because I find it kind of cheesey, to have to always be prompted how to feel . If I have to be literally thrown words to clue me into how to feel, then I dont think the filmmakers are doing their damn job very well. i should be able to pick it up from the movie alone, and especially in a production like this, where a lot of stuff seems to be filler. If they hae the time to put in filler, they should be rounding this storyout in a more clear way. "Shallow Day" , my ass.

I also dont see any chemistry between Messina and Adams. Maybe it has to do with the fact that I dont find either of them sexy , in the least. Both kind of look nauseated when theyre trying to look sexy. The way they curl  their lips or something, evokes nausea, not lust.

I never took the words as how I was supposed to feel; I took them as what Camille was feeling. I just thought I'd share them for those who are interested in them like I am but I feel like each time I do, someone's saying how stupid they are so I won't bother. If anyone is curious and wants to know, I'm still going to be looking for them - feel free to send me a message. I'll nerd out in private with you :)

I see the chemistry between them *shrug*. Could just be me.

[MBayGal]

I missed the words you mentioned, except for Shallow Day -- quite good I thought.

But at the end, when Camille was in bed with mr detective, Loser was on what appeared to be her hip, then seconds later it said Closer.  

[teapot]

1 hour ago, Alice Mudgarden said:

I never took the words as how I was supposed to feel; I took them as what Camille was feeling. I just thought I'd share them for those who are interested in them like I am but I feel like each time I do, someone's saying how stupid they are so I won't bother. If anyone is curious and wants to know, I'm still going to be looking for them - feel free to send me a message. I'll nerd out in private with you :)

I see the chemistry between them *shrug*. Could just be me.

I agree that it's basically Camille's psyche chiding her.  I haven't read Sharp Objects but over vacation I read this book George & Lizzie, and some themes are the same.

Spoiler

in that book (just in case) the protagonist sleeps w/her entire HS football team as a game.  The next few years, she just hears voices in her head calling her terrible things. the aftereffects of what shame can do was also a theme.

Edited August 8, 2018 by teapot

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

Did the show mess up costuming? Amma was in costume with her friends, hair up and fancy when Camille woke up. But she had on a sundress and hair down to the dress store. For a show that messes with time/memory seems like like a big error.

I just figured that she wouldn't want to wear that get-up to the store so she changed.

[Anela]

On 8/6/2018 at 11:15 AM, Juliegirlj said:

Did I imagine it or did Amma and one of the boys drop acid or take some kind of drug before the play? 

I will overlook Chris Messina’s tightie blackie underwear because he is so hot and sexy . 

Vickery’s wife knows something is up with Adora and her man. 

Does Mr Lacy feel guilty for his part in Camille’s assault or whatever that was ?

  Reveal hidden contents

Could Mr Lacy be wondering if Amma is his or one of the other guy’s daughter ? I still get the feeling that Amma is Camille’s daughter from the sex in the woods with multiple boys. 

Upset or not, I felt like Camille should have marched into Amma’s room and asked her what the Hell that stunt was all about. 

I was thinking the same thing (the comment in spoiler tags).

On 8/6/2018 at 2:32 PM, iMonrey said:

This is where the show veered into the absurd, like some crazy Shirley Jackson novel. Not only was the audience seemingly charmed with and proud of this horrific portrayal, the acting and dialogue were so laughably bad you'd think six years olds wrote and performed the thing. I half expected the audience to start slowly picking up rocks and stoning the players to death or something. Shit just got weird. Not just "quirky" but downright bizarre.

I'll have to go back and watch - strictly for scientific curiosity, mind you - but if my eyes did not deceive me we got an awfully graphic full frontal with Chris Messina this episode that almost bordered on porn.

I definitely saw something like that. He said that he was glad the room was so dark for that scene, LOL, but I was sure I saw the whole thing, partly covered by his hand. It's about time. They've had fully naked women on their shows for years. 

There's another guy with the name Chris messina, who has a twitter account, and he's been having some fun with the attention he gets, despite saying that he's not the real one. 

[Butless]

On 8/8/2018 at 11:03 AM, Alice Mudgarden said:

I never took the words as how I was supposed to feel; I took them as what Camille was feeling. I just thought I'd share them for those who are interested in them like I am but I feel like each time I do, someone's saying how stupid they are so I won't bother. If anyone is curious and wants to know, I'm still going to be looking for them - feel free to send me a message. I'll nerd out in private with you :)

I see the chemistry between them *shrug*. Could just be me.

Who , whoaaa; i was just having my say on the matter of the words; not your post.  It had nothing to do with you , or whatever. Please continue posting the stuff you like!  Thi is just a stylistic thing  thing used in a film that people are going to be divided on.  I understand that it's put up there to convey Camille's feelings,  but i just find it unnecessary and annoying. I think she's able to convey these things and we are able to pick up on these things on our own, even if it is alluding to her repression and cutting.

I also commented on Messina &  Adams because it seems like a lot of people have mentioned the chemistry between them. So its obviously not 'just' you that  sees something, and I seem to be on the outlier. I am admittedly  not a fan of either actor. I know I saw Julie & Julia, but I found it so forgettable that I dont remember anything about it, and dont remember Messina in it, at all.

 

On 8/8/2018 at 10:58 AM, hendersonrocks said:

It seems to me like he sent her back knowing full well how broken she is and that whatever happened in Wind Gap is part of it, but he - for whatever reason - felt like she needed to confront the issues AND that the story of these two girls from her hometown was her best chance to get writing (and printed) again.

IE, he's an asshole of a man who thinks he knows whats better for her, than she knows herself. And what he thinks is better, is for her to literally 'man-up' and face the music, blahblahblah. He's a traditional asshole man telling a woman whats best for her, and he thinks it's ok to fuck with her personal life. like the regular entitled man does in stories like this. I would hope her cutting him off on the phone indicates that ,a nd further, I hope his eventual demise is a nod to killing off these types of  relationships between men and women in stories.  Whatever shes told him, he either has no idea of the depth of the trauma, or he doesnt understand it, re his sending her back; but he thinks he's 100% correct. Baloney.

On 8/8/2018 at 10:44 AM, Penman61 said:

This is a very optimistic reading.  I still think Adora was being unbearably selfish and needlessly cruel. 

If Adora truly wanted to help Camille while still telling the truth, Adora instead could have said some version of:

Every parent should love their child.  You deserve love.  But something was broken in me and I just couldn't give it. It was not your fault.

Adora is straight up gaslighting Camille. Telling her lies, so that she can brainwash Camille into believing that shes cant get close to anyone. It's sickening and twisted, and keeps Camille at Adora's feet for her to kick in the teeth until she finally drinks herself to death or commits suicide.

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, MBayGal said:

 

But at the end, when Camille was in bed with mr detective, Loser was on what appeared to be her hip, then seconds later it said Closer.  

I only noticed closer and thought it sad that it seemed like Camille was striving for and pushing against it simultaneously. Loser is a nice catch and fits the mood as well. 

[Butless]

30 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I only noticed closer and thought it sad that it seemed like Camille was striving for and pushing against it simultaneously. Loser is a nice catch and fits the mood as well. 

i only saw Loser. Again. it just seems so superfluous to change it to Closer .Yes; we can see that she's getting closer. It literally couldnt be more obvious in teh context of the previous scene  and into this one, that she is desperate to be closer to  someone (him).  What are they going to do when they show them in the morning after shot? Show Loser again, if he rejects her? I mean honestly, he's the Loser, in that case.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Buttless

[Rockfish]

3 hours ago, Alice Mudgarden said:

I never took the words as how I was supposed to feel; I took them as what Camille was feeling. I just thought I'd share them for those who are interested in them like I am but I feel like each time I do, someone's saying how stupid they are so I won't bother. If anyone is curious and wants to know, I'm still going to be looking for them - feel free to send me a message. I'll nerd out in private with you :)

I see the chemistry between them *shrug*. Could just be me.

I’m truly enjoying the word play in the series, and I love that you’re sharing the words because most of the time, they flash by too quickly for me, especially the subtle shifts. And that’s my one criticism—I want the camera to linger a half second longer. 

And I guess I watched this episode when I was much too tired because what I thought Adora admitted to was that she never loved Camille’s father because of his coldness, and that Camille suffered from this same coldness which prevented her from being loving/lovable. Of course, that basically translates to her saying she never loved her, but I need to rewatch to see how far off base I was. 

[zobot81]

4 hours ago, Penman61 said:

This is a very optimistic reading.  I still think Adora was being unbearably selfish and needlessly cruel. 

If Adora truly wanted to help Camille while still telling the truth, Adora instead could have said some version of:

Every parent should love their child.  You deserve love.  But something was broken in me and I just couldn't give it. It was not your fault.

Okay.  While I tooootally understand where you're coming from, I am at this point 100% convinced that Adora is a Vindictive Narcissist -- the kind you want to run away from like you're being chased by a swarm of killer bees.  There are different levels of narcissism in everyone, some of which is perfectly healthy (a little self-absorption/ -obsession is natural), and some of which transforms into pathological, behavioral, and abusive.

According to Joseph Burgo, Ph.D., there are in fact five sub-types of Extreme NPD, the worst of which is the Vindictive Type:

Quote

While it’s possible to co-exist with a Bullying Narcissist, provided you don’t pose too obvious a threat, once you become the target of a Vindictive Narcissist, she will try to destroy you. You may have challenged her superior status in some way you don’t even recognize, and as a result, she needs to prove you the ultimate loser by destroying you. She’ll talk trash about you to friends and family. She might try to get you fired. If she is your ex-wife, she might try to turn your children against you and spend years tying you up in family court.

How to Cope: Whenever possible, distance yourself before the damage to your psyche and your reputation has gone too far. More so than with the other types of Extreme Narcissist, your approach here must be legalistic: Vindictive Narcissists often know how to disguise their true nature from people other than their victims, so your survival will depend upon having hard evidence. Preserve everything, especially toxic emails, texts, and other communication. Get witness statements from any friends who may have been spectators to the behavior. If necessary, hire a lawyer.

Camille is a threat to Adora for reasons that might not yet be apparent to us.  I feel certain by now that at the very least, Adora perceives Camille as a threat to her status in the Wind Gap community, where she is accustomed to controlling nearly everything -- the jobs, the events, hell she even controls the law!  So.  Camille's presence as an investigative journalist who wants to expose the deep fissures of corruption and dysfunction in Adora's sick little kingdom might as well be inviting hell-fire and damnation from her mother.  But Camille....doesn't really know...not exactly...how much her mother loathes her.  Until Adora comes out and says it.  There's no better reason to stop believing, to stop trying, to finally realize, "Shit.  This bitch really can't stand me.  Screw her.  Okay, I guess I can leave and never come back forever baai!"  That seismic shift in understanding is a gift.  A terribly bitter gift, to be sure, but it's a gift nevertheless.  Because Adora can't change and never will.  It's Camille who must let go.

Look.  My mother died last year very quickly and very suddenly of advanced cancer. And I was on the fence about what to do... make amends?  Maybe?  Finally? I admit that I was open to the idea, but I had serious reservations that it could ever happen.  Then, with her last breath, after I told her that she was the most beautiful woman I had every met, and a magnificent force of nature, she replied, "You....are a magnificent bitch." Then she closed her eyes, smiled, and flippin died.

Know what? I drove away from that hospice a free woman, for the first time in my whole life.  And I consider her last words a gift, probably the only gift she ever gave me.  My conscience was clear.

Edited August 8, 2018 by zobot81

[Penman61]

4 hours ago, zobot81 said:

  But Camille....doesn't really know...not exactly...how much her mother loathes her.  Until Adora comes out and says it.  There's no better reason to stop believing, to stop trying, to finally realize, "Shit.  This bitch really can't stand me.  Screw her.  Okay, I guess I can leave and never come back forever baai!"  That seismic shift in understanding is a gift.  A terribly bitter gift, to be sure, but it's a gift nevertheless.  Because Adora can't change and never will.  It's Camille who must let go.

 

Don't disagree that this is a possible, eventual takeaway for Camille:  That Adora coming right out and saying she never loved her has given Camille the clarity needed to truly break free of this monster mother and, by extension, Rapeyville, MI. 

But before Camille gets there--if she gets there--she'll have to slog through a lot of emotional sludge because of the narcissistic, passive-aggressive way her mother imparted this information.  (If nothing else, think how embarrassed Camille must feel. It's one thing to suspect your mother feels this way; it's quite another for her to dunk on you by telling it to your face.)  I think your own story (my condolences; I, too, lost my mother last year) turned out much more cathartic and cleansing than we have any reason to think Camille's will, though, as you point out, you just never know what comes out of these crises.  Camille and Adora seem to be heading into another one.

Edited August 9, 2018 by Penman61

[VagueDisclaimer]

9 hours ago, Penman61 said:

This is a very optimistic reading.  I still think Adora was being unbearably selfish and needlessly cruel. 

If Adora truly wanted to help Camille while still telling the truth, Adora instead could have said some version of:

Every parent should love their child.  You deserve love.  But something was broken in me and I just couldn't give it. It was not your fault.

Agreed. Adora took no responsibility and while she didn’t say Camille did anything to provoke this lack of love, what she said was worse: That Camille was born unlovable, even to her own mother, no wonder she can’t find love anywhere else

[Court]

10 hours ago, Alice Mudgarden said:

I never took the words as how I was supposed to feel; I took them as what Camille was feeling. I just thought I'd share them for those who are interested in them like I am but I feel like each time I do, someone's saying how stupid they are so I won't bother. If anyone is curious and wants to know, I'm still going to be looking for them - feel free to send me a message. I'll nerd out in private with you :)

I see the chemistry between them *shrug*. Could just be me.

I enjoy the words! I see some and miss some. I'll need out with you.

[Butless]

19 hours ago, zobot81 said:

 "You....are a magnificent bitch."

 

Where I come from, that's a compliment ;p 

Not making fun; your mom sounds like a terrible person.

But I really wouldnt mind that on my headstone: 

 

  HERE LIES

        A

MAGNIFICENT  

     BITCH 

 

14 hours ago, VagueDisclaimer said:

Agreed. Adora took no responsibility and while she didn’t say Camille did anything to provoke this lack of love, what she said was worse: That Camille was born unlovable, even to her own mother, no wonder she can’t find love anywhere else

I saw an clip od Clarkston saying that Adora loves her daughters very much. And Im like : side eye:

Im not sure what she meant by that. Is it possible to be a vindictive narcissist an truly love the daughter youre destroying on purpose?

[zobot81]

6 hours ago, Buttless said:

Where I come from, that's a compliment ;p 

Not making fun; your mom sounds like a terrible person.

But I really wouldnt mind that on my headstone: 

 

  HERE LIES

        A

MAGNIFICENT  

     BITCH 

LoL

You get it, girl!

[bannana]

On ‎2018‎-‎08‎-‎08 at 10:03 AM, Alice Mudgarden said:

I never took the words as how I was supposed to feel; I took them as what Camille was feeling. I just thought I'd share them for those who are interested in them like I am but I feel like each time I do, someone's saying how stupid they are so I won't bother. If anyone is curious and wants to know, I'm still going to be looking for them - feel free to send me a message. I'll nerd out in private with you :)

I see the chemistry between them *shrug*. Could just be me.

I very much appreciate your posts because I miss a lot of them.

[larapu2000]

On 8/8/2018 at 5:00 PM, Penman61 said:

Don't disagree that this is a possible, eventual takeaway for Camille:  That Adora coming right out and saying she never loved her has given Camille the clarity needed to truly break free of this monster mother and, by extension, Rapeyville, MI. 

I don't want to correct your postal codes, but Missouri is MO.  Michigan is MI.  I only bring this up because I have to defend my Midwestern brother in arms, Michigan, against the state of Rapeyville, Missouri, which, in my opinion, is neither the Midwest, nor the South, not even a Plains State.  Missouri is this weird place that is the Gateway to the West, while not being the west.  The frontier while having older settlements than more easterly areas of the US.  

I think that if Adora had stated that she didn't love Camille in more empathetic terms, she wouldn't be a narcissist.  Narcissists are devoid of compassion and empathy.  She wasn't trying to set Camille free, she was trying to hurt her even more.  Adora is more fucked up than her ancestor that got gang raped in the Civil War.  (And can we talk about how Missouri wasn't even an enthusiastic member of the Confederacy???  The Missouri Compromise and Dred Scott both helped kick off the Civil War, and Missouri sent more troops to the Union than the Confederacy, so this whole celebration has me confused.)  Missouri:  Not the South.  Not the Confederacy.  Still weird AF.

[carrps]

4 hours ago, larapu2000 said:

I don't want to correct your postal codes, but Missouri is MO.  Michigan is MI. 

I was going to say this, too. There are so many 'M' states it's difficult to remember which is which. MO is Missouri, MI is Michigan, MS is Mississippi, MN is Montana, ME is Maine, MA is Massachusetts. Any I miss?

I can remember MO from seeing Damn Yankees about a million times when I was a kid --Shoeless Joe from Hannibal MO!

[bijoux]

4 hours ago, larapu2000 said:

Missouri:  Not the South.  Not the Confederacy.  Still weird AF.

I don't know if it applies to the state, but it certainly would be honest advertising for Wind Gap.

29 minutes ago, carrps said:

I was going to say this, too. There are so many 'M' states it's difficult to remember which is which. MO is Missouri, MI is Michigan, MS is Mississippi, MN is Montana, ME is Maine, MA is Massachusetts. Any I miss?

Maryland - MD.

[mjt626]

MN-Minnesota, MT-Montana

[carrps]

34 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I don't know if it applies to the state, but it certainly would be honest advertising for Wind Gap.

Maryland - MD.

 

25 minutes ago, mjt626 said:

MN-Minnesota, MT-Montana

Argh!!!!

[Penman61]

6 hours ago, larapu2000 said:

I don't want to correct your postal codes, but Missouri is MO.  Michigan is MI.  I only bring this up because I have to defend my Midwestern brother in arms, Michigan, against the state of Rapeyville, Missouri, which, in my opinion, is neither the Midwest, nor the South, not even a Plains State.  Missouri is this weird place that is the Gateway to the West, while not being the west.  The frontier while having older settlements than more easterly areas of the US.  

I think that if Adora had stated that she didn't love Camille in more empathetic terms, she wouldn't be a narcissist.  Narcissists are devoid of compassion and empathy.  She wasn't trying to set Camille free, she was trying to hurt her even more.  Adora is more fucked up than her ancestor that got gang raped in the Civil War.  (And can we talk about how Missouri wasn't even an enthusiastic member of the Confederacy???  The Missouri Compromise and Dred Scott both helped kick off the Civil War, and Missouri sent more troops to the Union than the Confederacy, so this whole celebration has me confused.)  Missouri:  Not the South.  Not the Confederacy.  Still weird AF.

Thanks for that postal code abbreviation correction.  I did know that, but didn't type it.  There we are.  (I'm from Alaska, so AL vs AK and all that...)

I'm sure you're right about Missouri's general history and culture, but in this story, Wind Gap is southern and Confederate.  The Calhoun Day celebration made that clear.  (Given our current political climate, it seems quaint to try to carve out which precinct in which county in which nook of which state is less institutionally and culturally overtly racist, but I think it does matter for the telling of this particular story.)

Edited August 10, 2018 by Penman61

[Babe the Blue Ox]

Per Wikipedia:

Culturally, the Bootheel is considered more Southern than Midwestern. It was settled largely by people from the South, both black and white. It is part of the Mid-South, a region centered on the Memphis metropolitan area. Definitions of the Mid-South vary but in general include west Tennessee and Kentucky, north Mississippi, northeast Arkansas, and the Missouri Bootheel.

[Moxie Cat]

John C. Calhoun was an advocate for slavery and states' "minority rights" before the Civil War. But the Calhoun this show refers to is a random local legend. I doubt that the name isn't intentional though. I also note that, to my recollection, we haven't seen any character of color, have we? All I can remember are mentions of Mexicans as the possible killer.

This is the first episode where I have really wanted to see the next one. All the others left me drained.

I'd like to give a shoutout to the makeup and lighting people. I've thought Patricia Clarkson was stunning since "Simply Irresistible", and damn, it's been twenty years and she basically looks the same. (That hair!) Same for Elizabeth Perkins and Beth Broderick, who still looks like Aunt Zelda. But Amy Adams? Damn, they have done well at making this gorgeous woman who is younger than all I previously mentioned look tired, old, and the wrong side of 40. (Speaking as someone on the wrong side of 40....it's all too easy!) So kudos to the folks behind the scenes.

Mentioned upthread:

Spoiler

Camille might be Amma's mother? I was wondering what the twists I've heard about might be. So far it's just that Amma was friends with the two girls (once). How did I not suspect that? I was a VC Andrews reader and everything! Oh, and my main suspect now is the teacher. He seems so obvious.

Wonder if there is a connection between Camille's constant need for music in her ears and the stepdad's same need.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Moxie Cat

[SimonSeymour]

Gayla (the house keeper) is a POC. But otherwise, yes, I think that you’re correct. 

Also, someone mentioned on the first page that Adora said that she was a Calhoun and married a Preaker. What Adora actually said is that her mother was a Calhoun and her father was a Preaker. I’m assuming that because she had Camille when she was young and because Camille doesn’t seem to know anything about her father, Adora gave Camille Adora’s last name (at the time) because the father wasn’t in the picture. Sort of like Gilmore Girls. 

I’m unclear whether Camille and Marion shared the same father, or whether Alan was Marion’s father, though. 

[Moxie Cat]

28 minutes ago, SimonSeymour said:

Gayla (the house keeper) is a POC.

Ah, shoot - yeah, I forgot her. Thanks. And, she's someone who knows more than we do.

i assumed originally that Marion and Camille had the same father, but I believe last episode there was a mention of Marion's last name being Crellin, and other hints that Alan was Marion's father. Didn't Alan say to Adora that "he lost a daughter too" when Marion died, and she always forgets that?

I'm wondering if the police chief/sheriff is Camille's father and Amma is her daughter - maybe not from the football player rape (Camille should be younger) - but I'm waiting at this point for something really unexpected, like Camille killed both girls and was sleeping with both Nash and brother John. Because anything else, I wouldn't be surprised.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Moxie Cat

[SimonSeymour]

22 minutes ago, Moxie Cat said:

Ah, shoot - yeah, I forgot her. Thanks. And, she's someone who knows more than we do.

i assumed originally that Marion and Camille had the same father, but I believe last episode there was a mention of Marion's last name being Crellin, and other hints that Alan was Marion's father. Didn't Alan say to Adora that "he lost a daughter too" when Marion died, and she always forgets that?

I'm wondering if the police chief/sheriff is Camille's father and Amma is her daughter - maybe not from the football player rape (Camille should be younger) - but I'm waiting at this point for something really unexpected, like Camille killed both girls and was sleeping with both Nash and brother John. Because anything else, I wouldn't be surprised.

Right, yes! I forgot about the scene last week when Alan said that. Although, I have step-parents and both refer to me as their daughter, even though I’m technically not. I also always find it weird to refer to my mom’s husband (whom she married when I was 25) as my step-father, since I was out of the house at the time and married myself, so there was no “fathering” involved in our relationship. But, I’ve come to really love him, so now I’m good with calling him that. (I realize that’s neither here nor there, but I already typed that all out on my phone, so I’m just going with it. Lol). 

[bijoux]

4 hours ago, Moxie Cat said:

John C. Calhoun was an advocate for slavery and states' "minority rights" before the Civil War. But the Calhoun this show refers to is a random local legend. I doubt that the name isn't intentional though. I also note that, to my recollection, we haven't seen any character of color, have we? All I can remember are mentions of Mexicans as the possible killer.

This is the first episode where I have really wanted to see the next one. All the others left me drained.

I'd like to give a shoutout to the makeup and lighting people. I've thought Patricia Clarkson was stunning since "Simply Irresistible", and damn, it's been twenty years and she basically looks the same. (That hair!) Same for Elizabeth Perkins and Beth Broderick, who still looks like Aunt Zelda. But Amy Adams? Damn, they have done well at making this gorgeous woman who is younger than all I previously mentioned look tired, old, and the wrong side of 40. (Speaking as someone on the wrong side of 40....it's all too easy!) So kudos to the folks behind the scenes.

Mentioned upthread:

  Hide contents

Camille might be Amma's mother? I was wondering what the twists I've heard about might be. So far it's just that Amma was friends with the two girls (once). How did I not suspect that? I was a VC Andrews reader and everything! Oh, and my main suspect now is the teacher. He seems so obvious.

Wonder if there is a connection between Camille's constant need for music in her ears and the stepdad's same need.

The music is connected to Alice, her teeange room mate who killed herself. Camille told her that she didn’t really listen to music and Alice turned her onto it, telling her how it allowed her to get away. Though that part might be an indirect tie to Alan and explain why he is always listening to music.

3 hours ago, Moxie Cat said:

I'm waiting at this point for something really unexpected, like Camille killed both girls and was sleeping with both Nash and brother John. Because anything else, I wouldn't be surprised.

 That would be a surprise since Camille hadn’t been back to Wind Gap for over 10 years before she returned in the premiere.

[SarahPrtr]

16 hours ago, Moxie Cat said:

I'd like to give a shoutout to the makeup and lighting people. I've thought Patricia Clarkson was stunning since "Simply Irresistible", and damn, it's been twenty years and she basically looks the same. (That hair!) Same for Elizabeth Perkins and Beth Broderick, who still looks like Aunt Zelda. But Amy Adams? Damn, they have done well at making this gorgeous woman who is younger than all I previously mentioned look tired, old, and the wrong side of 40. (Speaking as someone on the wrong side of 40....it's all too easy!) So kudos to the folks behind the scenes.

 

OMG, Simply Irresistable!  Yes!  I loved her in that movie.  Funny you mentioned SI, because I actually thought Sarah Michelle Gellar might have been considered for the Camille role.  Or Rachel McAdams.

 

Now I want one of those caramel eclairs.

[ShellsandCheese]

3 hours ago, SarahPrtr said:

OMG, Simply Irresistable!  Yes!  I loved her in that movie.  Funny you mentioned SI, because I actually thought Sarah Michelle Gellar might have been considered for the Camille role.  Or Rachel McAdams.

 

Now I want one of those caramel eclairs.

Rachel McAdams is great in everything, but I don't think SMG is a strong enough actress to pull off a character like Camille. I still remember Cruel Intentions, she was so bad in that. Buffy was a character that really worked for her but I've been unimpressed in such about everything else I've seen her in; AMC being the lone exception.

 

Good catch on the Calhoun-Preaker thing. I guess Adora really was an unwed (probably teenage) mother. Given her hostility toward Camille, I'm wondering if perhaps Adora too endured the town's rite of passage (i.e. members of the football team having their way with female classmates), and birthed Camille 10 months later. Very interesting indeed. 

[hendersonrocks]

Quote

Wonder if there is a connection between Camille's constant need for music in her ears and the stepdad's same need.

Interesting.

Spoiler

If Camille ends up being Amma’s biological mother and her stepdad is Amma’s biological father I am going to barf. A lot. And yet also not be entirely surprised.

[Moxie Cat]

13 hours ago, hendersonrocks said:

And yet also not be entirely surprised.

Oh yeah - I hadn't thought of him, but 

Spoiler

Henry Czerny must have a bigger role in this.

I wonder if Gillian Flynn read a lot of VC Andrews as a kid?

[jeansheridan]

On 8/11/2018 at 2:00 PM, ShellsandCheese said:

but I don't think SMG is a strong enough actress to pull off a character like Camille.

I love SMG too but have to agree. Rachel McAdams would have killed it too. That said, there is a fragility in Adams in all her roles. She isn't a badass. Nothing wrong with that. It just isn't her persona on screen. 

Also, Adams is 44. Even on this show she pulls off 35 easily. Excellent skin routine!

[Mothra]

Some things I want to know:  why was the confederate-side play on Calhoun Day playing Battle Hymn of the Republic, a Northern anthem?

I want to know why Richard brought along his umbrella for the tour of murder scenes.

I want to know why the murder victims are without fail referred to as "little girls" when the behavior and appearance of the living girls their age, at least when outside, are hardly those of "little girls."  Amma brags about being "almost a woman" and her seductive behavior around virtually every male in the show indicates forget the almost.

There's more I want to know, but I can't think of it now.

[jeansheridan]

1 hour ago, Mothra said:

I want to know why Richard brought along his umbrella for the tour of murder scenes.

Ha! I wondered about that too. Maybe it was raining or drizzling more than we could notice? Or they wanted to use it for a rainy moment but there wasn't one and they couldn't refilm the scene? It was such an obvious prop too. I was kind of waiting for the walking under an umbrella trope.  But clearly only Mycroft Holmes can carry an unnecessary umbrella wherever he goes and have it make perfect sense.

[TattleTeeny]

I really think the scars would be hard to see regardless of the mesh/lace top of the dress, unless someone was really zeroing in for a good look.

[Soobs]

I sense that the romance with the detective isn't going to end well for her. She needs to be with an artist or a musician, just someone less basic. He seems like he'd be judgey about the scars.

[TattleTeeny]

I don't really care one way or the other whether things work out with them (seems to me any relationship for her would not likely succeed at this point), but artists and musicians can be just as judgmental as anyone else.

[Mothra]

10 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Ha! I wondered about that too. Maybe it was raining or drizzling more than we could notice? Or they wanted to use it for a rainy moment but there wasn't one and they couldn't refilm the scene? It was such an obvious prop too. I was kind of waiting for the walking under an umbrella trope.  But clearly only Mycroft Holmes can carry an unnecessary umbrella wherever he goes and have it make perfect sense.

On contemplation, I think it might be one of those meaningful-seeming but not really meaningful jokey things this show is so good at.  Something the show is playing with us with.  It was a bright sunny day, and besides, he hardly seems the type to worry about getting caught in a shower.  Ditto The Battle Hymn of the Republic--so outrageously *wrong* but there it is.  So many things that seem very important (to me, anyway) go by in such a flash that I've rewound and rewound to try to pause at exactly the right moment--and since it's almost impossible to pause on exactly the right frame, I think the flashes must be single-frame duration, not meant to be seen, really, but to hit us subconsciously somehow.  And then we have these ridiculous things like the umbrella, where we're given all the time in the world to see and ponder.

I tried to figure out if that flash of a girl with a bloody mouth was supposed to be Alice or one of the murdered "little girls" but honestly I could not get a frozen frame.  I guess I need a better dvr.

[ChicagoCita]

On 8/10/2018 at 6:51 AM, larapu2000 said:

Missouri:  Not the South.  Not the Confederacy.  Still weird AF.

My family is from far Western Illinois, right across the Mississippi River from Missouri. The history in our part of the state (Illinois) is rife with Underground Railroad stuff, because if the slaves could get out of the slave state, Missouri, to the free state of Illinois, they could start being hidden and brought North. I can't imagine what life was like for free people of color, knowing that slavery was literally just across a river.

If memory serves, Camille does tell her editor that Wind Gap is in the bootheel, which is pretty darn south. I don't know about that part of the state, but the parts near us (west of Hannibal) seem pretty darn Midwestern to me, flat with rows and rows of corn and soybeans, and Dollar Generals in every town.

[Butless]

On 8/12/2018 at 4:27 PM, jeansheridan said:

I love SMG too but have to agree. Rachel McAdams would have killed it too. That said, there is a fragility in Adams in all her roles. She isn't a badass. Nothing wrong with that. It just isn't her persona on screen. 

Also, Adams is 44. Even on this show she pulls off 35 easily. Excellent skin routine!

That's the power of highlighter in direct sun.

 

On 8/12/2018 at 9:58 PM, Soobs said:

I sense that the romance with the detective isn't going to end well for her. She needs to be with an artist or a musician, just someone less basic. He seems like he'd be judgey about the scars.

He slept with her when she had her full set of clothes on.  I dont think a cop or any other sane guy wouldnt be suspicious that she didnt want them to see her skin. She could have advanced syphlitic disease under there or leprosy. No guy wants his dick to fall off due to not checking out their partner, first. 

Unless Adams is so hot, that a guy wouldnt care. In fact, as sad as this story is, in the real world, vary few men would probably kick Adams out of bed for having a scarred body. Shes conventionally pretty, a redhead, and she has the gold standard body type for women that is absolutely worshipped in this country; ie she has the thin body of a 14yr old girl. This story would have been more interesting with a more average looking woman in the role.

As it is, i think a lot of gross men would think they has hit thr jackpot with her. A beautiful woman whos skin allows them to put her in their league, and always them to control her, because her insecurities are naked to the eye and just waiting to be exploited.

[DangerousMinds]

3 hours ago, Buttless said:

That's the power of highlighter in direct sun.

Highlighter?

[Butless]

1 hour ago, DangerousMinds said:

Highlighter?

As in, makeup.

[Stephanie23]

They way Adora said to Camille that she never loved her even hurted me to hear it :(

God she is cold and evil to her.

 

But I don't think she loves Amma either.

 

And what up with Alan and him being a slave to Adora? WTF?

I'm so annoyed with that.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Stephanie23

[paramitch]

The breathtaking cruelty of Adora in this episode! And the worst of it for me was how, each time, Adora softly pulls her in, and Camille buys it because she so desperately wants some kind of connection... and then there's the knife. Camille may have carved upon her body but Adora wields a sharper knife and did the cutting first. Just... damn.

And it's very strange to watch this. As I mentioned in a previous episode post, I grew up in the deep South (little towns in and around Jacksonville, FL, 17 miles from the Georgia border), and this show is just nailing the atmosphere -- the toxicity, the faux-sweetness, right alongside that weird, slow, almost dreamlike beauty to the language every once in awhile. Gah.

On 8/5/2018 at 7:29 PM, jeansheridan said:

But I do like how underplayed the veranda scene was with them. It starts out so normal. Camille is a bit passive and trying to smooth things over and Adora lets her. And then Adora just digs in the knife without even telegraphing it. She could have been discussing how well the pork tasted that day. 

This is what got me about it too. 

On 8/5/2018 at 9:19 PM, VagueDisclaimer said:

“You made me bleed! You both made me bleed!” 

Adora (and check out that name -- so perfect for a narcissist) cannot see anything except herself and how things affect her. All her hysterics over that stupid tiny cut on her hand have been absolutely, literally crazy. And the best part of all: She made HERSELF bleed. It's what she does.

On 8/6/2018 at 3:42 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

One of the saddest things about Camille is that she's so used to Adora constantly criticizing her and withholding affection that she can't accept a simple compliment from her boss. He could barely even finish saying, "I'm proud of you," before she hung up on him.

 

I really like the little glimpses of Camille's own inadvertent cruelty. We see it every now and then, where she'll just brush someone off in an ice-cold way that is total Adora.

On 8/6/2018 at 4:23 AM, Anela said:

Well, hello Chris Messina! I'm glad she has at least one decent person in her corner. I just hope that he doesn't turn out to be a bad person, like everyone else. that town is riddled with them. 

I've always loved Chris Messina, since way back on "Six Feet Under" (and I'm still pissed at "The Mindy Project" for utterly tanking his character), and like what he's bringing to the cop here. There's a softness and empathy to him -- most guys playing cops I feel overdo the 'tough' thing, but Messina is playing it really naturalistically, and I love his chemistry with Adams.

On 8/6/2018 at 8:36 AM, Penman61 said:

Jackie's hair at Calhoun Day was massively spectacular; I'm pretty sure smaller objects were caught in its gravitational pull.  Her whole look was "1973 Key Party" (youngsters may have to Google).

I love Jackie and her hair was amazing here. I also loved that she noticed every single thing Amma was doing. That woman really does see everything; I can't wait for that to come into play somehow. Jackie knows more about EVERYTHING than she's saying (as yet).

On 8/6/2018 at 1:57 PM, Cyranetta said:

The ivory floor could almost be a symbol for the town and its inhabitants - obscene origin, pretty to look at but unable to deal with intense contact, would make a boatload of "sharp objects" without extreme care being taken...

Oh, nicely done! This is a gorgeous metaphor and I'm certain it's absolutely deliberate. 

On 8/6/2018 at 3:20 PM, Penman61 said:

it will NEVER stop being appalling and disgusting to me that--150 years later--people still celebrate a treasonous war to defend slavery, all cloaked in "heritage" or whatever.  Every time I see that Southern swastika, my jaw clenches.  The blasé pervasiveness of that symbol in the Calhoun Day celebration was as upsetting to me as the simulated gang-rape acted out by 14-year-olds.  Double ugh.

 

Yeah me too (I get nauseous visiting Jacksonville and seeing all those "The South Shall Rise Again" bumper stickers. I mean, Jesus, people, YOU LOST, let it go). The part that oddly got me in a very strange way was when the sheriff (who is played by one of my favorite character actors, Matt Craven) walked away and casually told the cop not to show up in a Union uniform. I mean, the town is so screwed up you can't even cosplay you're for the Union!

On 8/6/2018 at 4:40 PM, Penman61 said:

The gentlest way I can say this is that the show hasn't given us enough information to know to what extent Camille consented in that situation.  I would also question the viability of "consent" in ANY scenario of multiple boys vs. one teenage girl.  Finally, even assuming consent and some kind of equal playing field in terms of power: As a general proposition, Camille consenting to and enjoying sex is absolutely fine and human, regardless of the number of partners.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting this.

On 8/6/2018 at 6:31 PM, burghgal said:

This episode made the hair rise on my neck/arm like it used to back than-- so much so, that I wonder if there isn't a basis for this town somewhere in the author/showrunners past with their own town's "Calhoun Day" because it was kinda specific in its imagery.

I'm sorry for what you went through then, which sounded genuinely terrifying! And I've been feeling the same way -- the atmosphere of the show is capturing something very specific and difficult and yet it feels 100% real. Towns like this exist.

On 8/7/2018 at 7:01 AM, zobot81 said:

When someone says, "To me, she was just a slut" all I hear is, "I don't respect women," and I stop listening.

Me too.

On 8/7/2018 at 12:14 PM, JohnnyRotten said:

At first I thought he had the good sense to feel guilty. But after they way he talked to her in this episode (and how happy he is in the flashback when he is about to rape Camille) I wonder if he has some kind of gross crush/obsession with her?

Yeah, I was seriously creeped out when he was all, "I've thought about you a lot," and kind of semi-flirting, and... based on what it appears he did to her years back? Not enough NOPE in the world for that. Ugh.

On 8/8/2018 at 3:03 AM, Buttless said:

I dont like Camille's boss and  was glad she hung up on him. I didnt see it as her not being able to take a compliment. I saw it as him being a typical asshole man, sending her to a very harmful place for her, literally, on the pretext that she needed to 'man up' and work things out.  He had no idea what kind of mother she had, her up bringing, no idea of the danger at all in sending an alcoholic and cutter into the lair of the beast. Yet he thought he was right in what he was doing, without listening to her, at all.  And frankly, hes all concerned about her whipping up a story about dead little girls, for his readers entertainment, first and foremost; winning awards, secondly.  Stopping a killer ssounds like lip service.  And as someone said, why is his wife always there off to the side when he calls Camille? She really offers nothing. I could care less about this man's supposed goodwill toward Camille, or her's.

 

I haven't read the book, but I think there's another way to read Frank, Camille's editor than just toxic mansplainer or "asshole man," though. I think he's part of the story because, first and foremost, he is a reminder that we make our families as well as being born into them. This man loves Camille purely like a daughter, and it's apparent to me (when Camille lets her guard down) that she feels the same way. He is also evidently very sick (possibly dying), a former alcoholic (so he knows what he's been witnessing), and I think he has been watching Camille slowly semi-suicide by vodka for the past year (years? months?) and was at his wit's end as to how to save her. I mean, when you're drinking every single waking moment of your life, something will eventually give.

The Camille we see at the beginning of this story is a woman who is literally drinking herself to death 24 hours a day. It's heavily implied she's not meeting deadlines or doing good work anymore, and if her editor is actually dying, then I think the implication is that he's scared of what will happen to her (and of what she may do to herself) if he does. She won't have a job for long. She's already living in a shithole and is in complete denial about her own mental health and life.

So when this story comes up, he grabs onto it. He tries something risky -- sending her back someplace he knows will hurt her, but he also hopes it may heal her. I think the character isn't doing it out of male entitlement (and I think it could have been a female, although I like that he has a paternal aspect that Camille never got otherwise). He's dying, he can't tell Camille, she's completely oblivious, and he's simply hoping this gives her some sort of closure. Which, I would agree with him, she needs (what she really needs is to tell Adora to go fuck herself and then high-tail it out of that shithole town never to return, and straight on to rehab).

Also, I know some have commented on the ever-presence of Frank's wife, but I simply think that's because he's sick and she's worried about him. He's obviously not telling Camille the truth about how sick he actually is (and that breaks my heart).

On 8/8/2018 at 9:03 AM, Alice Mudgarden said:

I never took the words as how I was supposed to feel; I took them as what Camille was feeling. I just thought I'd share them for those who are interested in them like I am but I feel like each time I do, someone's saying how stupid they are so I won't bother. If anyone is curious and wants to know, I'm still going to be looking for them - feel free to send me a message. I'll nerd out in private with you.

Please keep sharing the words -- you have caught so many that I've missed! It's fun to see them spotlighted, and I love the way they add to the subtext of what we're seeing (and what Camille is feeling).

Edited September 4, 2018 by paramitch
spacing

[Alice Mudgarden]

On 9/3/2018 at 8:00 PM, paramitch said:

Please keep sharing the words -- you have caught so many that I've missed! It's fun to see them spotlighted, and I love the way they add to the subtext of what we're seeing (and what Camille is feeling).

Aw, I'm glad to be of some small help! I actually let the last three build up (you need to be in the mood for a show like this one) and just finished it. I took note of the words like a super spy but didn't actually write them down. However, I found this article that seems pretty thorough that you may like :)