S01.E05: Closer

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

yes, i'm not getting the gang rape thing. to me, she was just a slut and gladly took on the team. i wish they would explain better.

I don't know what's going on with that either but wasn't there an early flashback of Camille running away from the boys?

[Penman61]

Quote

yes, i'm not getting the gang rape thing. to me, she was just a slut and gladly took on the team. i wish they would explain better.

(emphasis added)

The gentlest way I can say this is that the show hasn't given us enough information to know to what extent Camille consented in that situation.  I would also question the viability of "consent" in ANY scenario of multiple boys vs. one teenage girl.  Finally, even assuming consent and some kind of equal playing field in terms of power: As a general proposition, Camille consenting to and enjoying sex is absolutely fine and human, regardless of the number of partners.

[TattleTeeny]

THANK YOU, @Penman61.

[bilgistic]

3 hours ago, LilaFowler said:

The opening song this week was especially terrible IMO. It was so slow and boring and seemed to go on forever. I get it, the show is trying to stretch the total running time as much as possible because they didn't have a full 60 minutes again, but come on.

Patricia Clarkson played a mother who hates her daughter in Pieces of April. It's phenomenal. Watch it with a box of tissues.

It was a man humming. I thought, "Is this Alan?"

[ElectricBoogaloo]

21 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Also, Adora's poor maid had to cook for this messed up event. I'm so bad at names. She has a name, right? Viola? 

Her name is Gayla. 

[burghgal]

Back in the 90s when I was in my mid-twenties, I had a job where I was required to travel often to small towns in the deep south to do  IT implementations/audits at sites/plants for larger clients.  As a "Yankee" female from the city, I used to feel way out of place and creeped out in some (not all !) of the towns I would work in. Between the leering men, the dark nights with foggy skies/roads, the OTT car/motorcycle backfires at all hours of the night, and the fake niceness of the "key" townspeople, I was often uncomfortable.  This episode made the hair rise on my neck/arm like it used to back than-- so much so, that I wonder if there isn't a basis for this town somewhere in the author/showrunners past with their own town's "Calhoun Day" because it was kinda specific in its imagery .   

I remember needing to eat dinner one night, and the only place open in town was a bar eerily similar to the place in this series, and I was wearing a skirt suit from work (so a little noticeable I guess).  While I waited for my meal to go, I was approached by 3 drunk "boys" who basically acted like wolves circling  - one grabbing my butt and pulling me into him to force me to dance, and people at the crowded bar just started laughing.  I ran out and ended up at a vending machine for a Snickers dinner - it was probably the best choice of food in town honestly.

Anyway, hope I get to sleep tonight, because I used to have trouble back in those days.

[Dminches]

12 minutes ago, burghgal said:

Back in the 90s when I was in my mid-twenties, I had a job where I was required to travel often to small towns in the deep south to do  IT implementations/audits at sites/plants for larger clients.  As a "Yankee" female from the city, I used to feel way out of place and creeped out in some (not all !) of the towns I would work in. Between the leering men, the dark nights with foggy skies/roads, the OTT car/motorcycle backfires at all hours of the night, and the fake niceness of the "key" townspeople, I was often uncomfortable.  This episode made the hair rise on my neck/arm like it used to back than-- so much so, that I wonder if there isn't a basis for this town somewhere in the author/showrunners past with their own town's "Calhoun Day" because it was kinda specific in its imagery .   

I remember needing to eat dinner one night, and the only place open in town was a bar eerily similar to the place in this series, and I was wearing a skirt suit from work (so a little noticeable I guess).  While I waited for my meal to go, I was approached by 3 drunk "boys" who basically acted like wolves circling  - one grabbing my butt and pulling me into him to force me to dance, and people at the crowded bar just started laughing.  I ran out and ended up at a vending machine for a Snickers dinner - it was probably the best choice of food in town honestly.

Anyway, hope I get to sleep tonight, because I used to have trouble back in those days.

I traveled for work my entire career which started in 1983.  There were a lot of questionable towns but at least I was a guy and less vulnerable than women.

That is a scary situation you described.  People also need to remember that there were no cell phones and GPSs back then.  You had to find your way to your hotel with a friggin' map.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Dminches

[tennisgurl]

Between this show and Castle Rock, this really is the summer of “troubled person returnes to their creepy home town to solve a crime and are ostracized by townsfolk hiding secrets” isn’t it? 

[WaltersHair]

Quote

Between this show and Castle Rock, this really is the summer of “troubled person returnes to their creepy home town to solve a crime and are ostracized by townsfolk hiding secrets” isn’t it? 

And don't forget The Sinner. Season two just started and.... Bill Pullman's character goes back to his home town and murder is on the menu.

I also wonder if feeling supremely uncomfortable while watching a show is entertaining.

Edited August 7, 2018 by WaltersHair

[VagueDisclaimer]

2 hours ago, Penman61 said:

(emphasis added)

The gentlest way I can say this is that the show hasn't given us enough information to know to what extent Camille consented in that situation.  I would also question the viability of "consent" in ANY scenario of multiple boys vs. one teenage girl.  Finally, even assuming consent and some kind of equal playing field in terms of power: As a general proposition, Camille consenting to and enjoying sex is absolutely fine and human, regardless of the number of partners.

Applause!

 

We really don’t know the context but the clues we have is that this might’ve happened on Camille’s birthday. It seems in the flashes we see of Camille in her cheerleading uniform, it all might be from the same day. She sees her mother sobbing on her dead sister’s bed, she tries to escape the house, runs off on Allan and Gayla with the birthday cake, we see her later singing to herself, and the flashes of her in the woods with the boys.

We have Camille describing the area where it happened as the football players “having their way” with the latest cheerleader, but when Richard all’s that rape, Camille is very quick to say it might’ve been quite consensual. Coupling that with her other stories about how girls were judged and pinned with reputations and were sometimes forced into “proving” themselves, I don’t think it was necessarily full on assault or completely something Camille wanted. It made me think she was emotionally compromised and before she started cutting herself, she used this situation to almost sacrifice herself, the remains of her reputation, the remains of the girl that kept trying to get Adora to love her. And i think it likely got out of hand in a way that of course it would and Camille lost control and whatever she was trying to get out of it was ultimately not there. And Camille was left with more problems than she already had.

Thats just my interpretation right now. I hope we do get clarity. I’m curious if Amma is purposely sniffing around that teacher knowing his history with Camille. Amma gives the impression of the sister who wants anything her sister has or ever had. 

[ferjy]

30 minutes ago, WaltersHair said:

And don't forget The Sinner. Season two just started and.... Bill Pullman's character goes back to his home town and murder is on the menu.

I also wonder if feeling supremely uncomfortable while watching a show is entertaining.

Oh has it? I had no idea there was even going to be a second season. I really liked the first. Thanks for the heads up.

[100Proof]

I dunno. I'm already invested but to me this whole thing has been people acting weird with each other without much in the way of a foundation or context or something. Yeah, murder, familial dysfunction behind a facade, small town dirt that's been buried or in denial of or whatever. But everything these characters do seem so ad hoc.  Behaving odd for the sake of behaving odd. Its gotten bloody annoying. Better be a good payoff, lol

Spoiler.

Spoiler

I think its either Amma or with her two friends that's been done doing it, lol

Edited August 7, 2018 by 100Proof
Spoiler tag added

[jeansheridan]

3 hours ago, Penman61 said:

The gentlest way I can say this is that the show hasn't given us enough information to know to what extent Camille consented in that situatio

Double Amen. Thank you for being precise and articulate.

Now that I am older I feel less intimidated by men but sometimes I think men forget that they can be scary in packs. 

That said, in this episode Camille's memory of those girls in their cheerleading uniforms also felt scary. She is under threat at all angles. Jackie, Richard, and Curry are her only allies. 

I felt a little scared for Richard too. He looked so small against those thugs. 

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, nothing like celebrating that time a young woman was gang raped until her confederate husband came home. Even beyond the messed up Confederate worship going on, Calhoun Day is one fucked up tradition. They were having the kids mimic a rape! What the hell? I guess Wind Gap takes the wins where it get it, even if that win is "women didnt get burned alive that one time we fought that war we lost anyway." 

Very interesting seeing Adora in her element, as Queen of the Southern Bells. Calhoun Day may be a hot mess, but I did like them getting all the characters together, and seeing more of how the town functions when its trying to be normal. Adora is running the town with a sweet iron fist, the local gossip hounds are everywhere, dudes in stupid confederate uniforms are drinking, its a whole big thing. Complete with Adora falling into hysterics and engaging in high drama. And Amma clearly picks up her moms drama queen tendency's. The directing of that whole sequence was really good, by the way. It handled its many characters and dynamics in a way that felt really organic. 

Amma reacting to seeing Camille's scares was also not quite what I expected. She really seemed sad for her sister, and her apology seemed real. Or at least, as real as Amma gets, as with most of her interactions with people. She LOVES attention, and now that she has her parents attention, she wants her sisters as well. She totally had a fit when she saw Camille not paying total attention to her, and she lit up with a Christmas tree when she found out Camille wanted to run lines with her, and looked deflated as hell when Camille had to run off on her. How much of that is Amma really just wanting to connect with her sister in the only way she knows how to, and how much is Amma just wanting to always be the center of attention, I dont know. But I really like the Camille and Amma scenes, they're super interesting to me. 

AA and CM have great chemistry. A++ for more of that. 

Wow, that was cold as several glaciers Adora. Camille probably assumed that her mom didnt have many good feelings towards her, but, "I never loved you" right from her own mouth is just...what do you even say after that? Especially when she accuses Camille of being the cold one! 

[Butless]

The music choices on this show are so pretentious and just shit-awful. The credit and the penultimate ones were the worst.  I want to punch the singer in the face, whoever they are. It sounds like the same annoying woman, if they are two separate songs. That fictional twerp that killed herself, had horrible musical taste.

And while some Led Zep is ok, sometimes, Camille moping along to Pigstville, MO with that fake blues soundtrack on, made me dislike her, pretty instantly.

I'll give Adams her due  this week tho, after saying I dont like her as an actress in one of my last posts. She was proficient in the last two scenes of the episode. Enough so , that I was really moved by them. The last one, in  particular; where she wanted so badly to get close to someone, and how every fiber of her being was trying to survive after her mother gaslit her so badly. Adora's a soulless human being and I hope she get her just desserts by the end of this. The shit she pulled on her daughter , even more so than the rapes, caused Camille to close down on herself , in a very very slow and painful death, up tp this point. We can see this now, in this episode.

 

On 8/6/2018 at 5:20 PM, Penman61 said:

[emphasis added]

I think I know what you mean here, but it will NEVER stop being appalling and disgusting to me that--150 years later--people still celebrate a treasonous war to defend slavery, all cloaked in "heritage" or whatever.  Every time I see that Southern swastika, my jaw clenches.  The blasé pervasiveness of that symbol in the Calhoun Day celebration was as upsetting to me as the simulated gang-rape acted out by 14-year-olds.  Double ugh.

 

There's absolutely no difference in americans celebrating the confederacy vs germans celebrating the Nazis. None.

If small southern towns are doing it in this day and age, i think they need to be exposed and get a dose of humiliation, in the course. Seems like a lot of the trouble in this country came because the South wasnt punished justly after the war, that they caused, in the name of an abomination. I get that individual soldiers were conscripted, but not punishing the South and treating them as the rightly conquered, has led to a lot of bullshit coming out of those places in the last 150+ years. They were wrongly told that they were entitled to make any decisions whatsoever on how they operated. Should have put the boot down hard on their necks and kept it there, because a lot of that rot coming out of those places spread, when we didnt, and has been a threat to democracy , ever since.

 

I know the Cauldron Day or whatever its called was fiction, but it was so nauseating. That kids pantomiming the rape of (an already raped) child, and the crowd is acting like its fucking normal and fun.

Those wannabehipster creeps, Camilles old classmates, treating her like a slut. .. someone needs to drop a house on them. And the rat-faced bastard sheriff warning Dickie that she has a past...fuck him! I hope he gets his desserts too, and that hes not Camilles dad. But if he is, I hope she ruins him.

 

Adora is every fullofshit  narcissitic witch, OOohing and Aaahing over the little kids, especially the most vulnerable --to make herself look good and enlightened and compassionate...ie, all the things they are the raging opposite of.

Camilles scars would have been noticeable on her back and arms in that gauze dress.

"Aunt" Jackie is the best person in this show, I hope shes legit good and not just a bitchy porch drinker. Love Eliz Perkins, Glad to see her in a crime drama, as she  was a huge crime reader,I remember.

Loved to see that poor kid with the gun running around CD nabbing dranks ;p

And would love to see John put that bitchy cheerleader in her place. 'I gave you John and you did this to me!' Fuck you, hon. And take a long look at those other ex-cheerleader friends of Camilles, cause thats gonna be you in 15 years or quicker, you selfimportant small town asshole.

 

On 8/6/2018 at 3:03 PM, bilgistic said:

That's what I saw when I rewatched the scene a few times. Several of y'all were saying there was full-on dick, so I had to research to make sure I didn't miss anything.

 

i rewatched too, and I thought i saw something bounce.

 

On 8/6/2018 at 8:31 PM, burghgal said:

Back in the 90s when I was in my mid-twenties, I had a job where I was required to travel often to small towns in the deep south to do  IT implementations/audits at sites/plants for larger clients.  As a "Yankee" female from the city, I used to feel way out of place and creeped out in some (not all !) of the towns I would work in. Between the leering men, the dark nights with foggy skies/roads, the OTT car/motorcycle backfires at all hours of the night, and the fake niceness of the "key" townspeople, I was often uncomfortable.  This episode made the hair rise on my neck/arm like it used to back than-- so much so, that I wonder if there isn't a basis for this town somewhere in the author/showrunners past with their own town's "Calhoun Day" because it was kinda specific in its imagery .   

I remember needing to eat dinner one night, and the only place open in town was a bar eerily similar to the place in this series, and I was wearing a skirt suit from work (so a little noticeable I guess).  While I waited for my meal to go, I was approached by 3 drunk "boys" who basically acted like wolves circling  - one grabbing my butt and pulling me into him to force me to dance, and people at the crowded bar just started laughing.  I ran out and ended up at a vending machine for a Snickers dinner - it was probably the best choice of food in town honestly.

Anyway, hope I get to sleep tonight, because I used to have trouble back in those days.

 It seems like all small towns are zenophobic and unwelcoming. But then throw in the different culture of the South, and that kicks the menacing and weird up several notches. I especially find the fake niceness disconcerting. Especially by the women in the South.  When you cant count on another woman to have your back in the most basic of way, it is even more frightening.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Buttless

[IDreamofJoaquin]

23 hours ago, SHD said:

On 8/6/2018 at 12:00 AM, bilgistic said:

I only realized with this episode that the song played during the opening credits is different every week.

 

I noticed that a couple of weeks ago and I've disliked them all.

I only liked the song in the second episode.  Infact I liked it so much I couldn't wait for the 3rd and was so disappointed it was a different (awful) song.  I figured there was no song for the 1st episode because it was the 1st.  "Glance Backwards" by Jeffrey Brodsky.   Jean-Marc Vallee seems to have a thing for music so I am assuming that's why it changes.

 

 

19 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

-Did the show mess up costuming? Amma was in costume with her friends, hair up and fancy when Camille woke up. But she had on a sundress and hair down to the dress store. For a show that messes with time/memory seems like like a big error.

I noticed that too.

 

 

Why was Adora freaking the fuck out when Amma ran way?  That was way too dramatic.  She ran away - it's not like someone saw something suspicious happen to her.  She is out of the house every damn night!  Yes, she was definitely waiting to be found that little creep.   I enjoyed the direction during Calhoun Day.  Everyone watching someone else.   

I'm sorry but this whole grand house thing I do not buy.  Inside it seems small. To the left there is a sitting room and then the back room where the doormat Alan listens to music.  To the right there is a huge room with Amma's dollhouse and then it seems like there is a kitchen in the back.  One simple staircase and a few large bedrooms upstairs.  Where is the formal dining room?  Where is the beautiful screened in porch that a lot of Southern homes have?  Maybe it's a nice, big house for Wind Gap but I've seen more impressive.  

I thought the dress for Camille was odd.  It was sheer on the arms and back.  Someone would not have noticed her scars underneath?  

 

Really wanting to know about Camille's father.  One one hand the way her editor talks to her each week shows gives us a little more about how close they are and makes me suspect he is related and then on the other hand Adora keeps alluding to how cold he is.  On a side note it really annoys me how each of the Miguel Sandoval scenes has to have his wife right there listening to their conversation.  Okay, we get it, he's married.  The first scene at least had them discussing her but now she's just THERE. 

[SHD]

2 hours ago, Buttless said:

The music choices on this show are so pretentious and just shit-awful. 

This is exactly how I felt about the music in "Big Little Lies." I wonder if it's director-related or just a coincidence.

[IDreamofJoaquin]

1 hour ago, SHD said:

This is exactly how I felt about the music in "Big Little Lies." I wonder if it's director-related or just a coincidence.

It has to be director related.  I asked this on a post in another episode.   Neither book had a huge emphasis on them listening to music.  But it's really annoying. 

[scrb]

Speaking of music, anyone know the songs over the closing credits of this episode?

i think there were two.  And one of the choruses was something about Palante.

[zobot81]

22 minutes ago, scrb said:

Speaking of music, anyone know the songs over the closing credits of this episode?

i think there were two.  And one of the choruses was something about Palante.

I was too lazy to shazaam it, but I also wanna know which song was playing as soon as the end-credits rolled...I believe there were two... I didn't care for the second one.

(shift)

I would hate to ride the coattails of another user (i.e. @PENMAN61) who has already tactfully pointed out the folly of assuming Camille was "loose" -- but may I add that I don't think anyone wants to hear the word "slut" to describe anyone, in the year 2018?  I don't. I really, really don't.  I don't think I'm being too precious by rejecting that word, which (when I hear it) sounds like hate-speech on par with homophobic slang.  Please, choose your words more carefully, so as not to obscure what might otherwise be valid insight, with unnecessarily ugly rhetoric.

When someone says, "To me, she was just a slut" all I hear is, "I don't respect women," and I stop listening.

[rockwood84]

1 hour ago, zobot81 said:

I was too lazy to shazaam it, but I also wanna know which song was playing as soon as the end-credits rolled...I believe there were two... I didn't care for the second one.

(shift)

I would hate to ride the coattails of another user (i.e. @PENMAN61) who has already tactfully pointed out the folly of assuming Camille was "loose" -- but may I add that I don't think anyone wants to hear the word "slut" to describe anyone, in the year 2018?  I don't. I really, really don't.  I don't think I'm being too precious by rejecting that word, which (when I hear it) sounds like hate-speech on par with homophobic slang.  Please, choose your words more carefully, so as not to obscure what might otherwise be valid insight, with unnecessarily ugly rhetoric.

When someone says, "To me, she was just a slut" all I hear is, "I don't respect women," and I stop listening.

Pa'Lante by Hurray for the Riff Raff

[jeansheridan]

I kind of dig the music. It isn't easily identifiable to me but it sets a mood. I think the opening songs are meant to set the mood for each ep rather than be a brand for the series like GOT or WW.

 

 How much Alan relies on music really ads to his almost non-existant personality. I have hopes he may rise up to help Camille in some fashion. He has quietly defended her. "I think Camille knows how to behave." And I like him for the birthday cake. I wish he would school Amma more but clearly hands on parenting isn't his thing. Plus we never saw him with Marion. Maybe he doted on her. And now he is broken. 

I just noticed DB Sweeney played Natalie's dad. That seems like a big actor for a mere cameo.

[Butless]

1 hour ago, zobot81 said:

I was too lazy to shazaam it, but I also wanna know which song was playing as soon as the end-credits rolled...I believe there were two... I didn't care for the second one.

(shift)

I would hate to ride the coattails of another user (i.e. @PENMAN61) who has already tactfully pointed out the folly of assuming Camille was "loose" -- but may I add that I don't think anyone wants to hear the word "slut" to describe anyone, in the year 2018?  I don't. I really, really don't.  I don't think I'm being too precious by rejecting that word, which (when I hear it) sounds like hate-speech on par with homophobic slang.  Please, choose your words more carefully, so as not to obscure what might otherwise be valid insight, with unnecessarily ugly rhetoric.

When someone says, "To me, she was just a slut" all I hear is, "I don't respect women," and I stop listening.

While i agree with you, that labeling a woman with the word slut is a problem, im also going to point out that some women under 40ish have reclaimed the word and use it to describe themselves and other women in a sex positive way.

In this case, though, it was being used to describe a child, and thats problematic, to say the least. 

My use of the word was rooted in the misogynist pov of her classmates. That they both thought of her and treated her  in  the misogynist usage of the word.

I believe what happened to Camille ran along the lines of what the previous poster said, but that Kansas cop was right too,  she was too young to consent, to young to have a handle on how it would go or any control over it. She more than likely had a jumble of emotions based on how she was treated by her parents and the trauma she just went through with her sister. Those boys were gross entitled misogynist young men , who grew into even grosser entitled misogynist men.

[prettybird]

I was wondering about what happened to Camille with the boys in the woods in relation to Millie Calhoun and the union soldiers. Millie was gang raped and suffered in silence. I think Camille was also raped but let everyone believe it was consensual (suffering in silence). Millie did it protect her husband. Did Camille want to protect her mother? She mentioned girls of the town paying for the sins of their mothers. Adora had Camille very young and out of wedlock. I’m sure in that small town it was a scandal that she was shamed for. With allowing everyone to believe she willingly slept with the boys instead of going to police, was she avoiding the scandal of rape?

[zobot81]

2 minutes ago, Buttless said:

While i agree with you, that labeling a woman with the word slut is a problem, im also going to point out that some women under 40ish have reclaimed the word and use it to describe themselves and other women in a sex positive way.

In this case, though, it was being used to describe a child, and thats problematic, to say the least. 

My use of the word was rooted in the misogynist pov of her classmates. That they both thought of her and treated her  in  the misogynist usage of the word.

I believe what happened to Camille ran along the lines of what the previous poster said, but that Kansas cop was right too,  she was too young to consent, to young to have a handle on how it would go or any control over it. She more than likely had a jumble of emotions based on how she was treated by her parents and the trauma she just went through with her sister. Those boys were gross entitled misogynist young men , who grew into even grosser entitled misogynist men.

Fair.

I guess I'm of a certain age where I don't see how I could possibly use that word in a positive way -- I especially dislike it when woman call other women sluts in a pejorative way.

But it gives me hope to know that young women are reclaiming any word that once worked against us.  Why not?

[Butless]

On 8/7/2018 at 11:13 AM, prettybird said:

I was wondering about what happened to Camille with the boys in the woods in relation to Millie Calhoun and the union soldiers. Millie was gang raped and suffered in silence. I think Camille was also raped but let everyone believe it was consensual (suffering in silence). Millie did it protect her husband. Did Camille want to protect her mother? She mentioned girls of the town paying for the sins of their mothers. Adora had Camille very young and out of wedlock. I’m sure in that small town it was a scandal that she was shamed for. With allowing everyone to believe she willingly slept with the boys instead of going to police, was she avoiding the scandal of rape?

Just as good of an explanation and more likely given the clues you mention.

Its probably a mix of all thats been said. It is clear though that Adora gaslit her child into believing she was bad and worthless by age 14. 

 

On 8/7/2018 at 11:21 AM, zobot81 said:

Fair.

I guess I'm of a certain age where I don't see how I could possibly use that word in a positive way -- I especially dislike it when woman call other women sluts in a pejorative way.

But it gives me hope to know that young women are reclaiming any word that once worked against us.  Why not?

Whatever the case, it shouldnt be used on a child.  You can be 14 and feel like you want to have sex with multiple boys at once, but youre in no way mature enough to fully comprehend what the reality of it entails. 

[DFWGina]

I'm from the deep south and just have a hard time with Missouri discussed as being southern.  To me, its the midwest.  This town seems more like Northwest Mississippi or Arkansas to me.

I am totally intrigued with this show and wouldn't understand half of what is going on with this show if I didn't read this board.    I feel like I need to read the book but trying to wait til the show is over so that I am not totally spoiled.

[Butless]

5 minutes ago, DFWGina said:

I'm from the deep south and just have a hard time with Missouri discussed as being southern.  To me, its the midwest.  This town seems more like Northwest Mississippi or Arkansas to me.

I am totally intrigued with this show and wouldn't understand half of what is going on with this show if I didn't read this board.    I feel like I need to read the book but trying to wait til the show is over so that I am not totally spoiled.

Im from the midwest and Missouri is definitely not midwestern in any way im familiar with,  culturally.  I dont identify with Arkansas or any of Miss, either. I think we need more than a few names to put to places.

 

What about Adora? Does she seem sufficiently Southern?

Edited August 7, 2018 by Buttless

[Penman61]

8 minutes ago, DFWGina said:

I'm from the deep south and just have a hard time with Missouri discussed as being southern.  To me, its the midwest.  This town seems more like Northwest Mississippi or Arkansas to me.

In the first episode, didn't Camille give her editor a thumbnail description of Wind Gap as "spittin' distance from Tennessee"?  I thought that meant to convey its cultural/historical proximity as well.  The Calhoun Day celebration seems to confirm that .

Edited August 7, 2018 by Penman61

[DFWGina]

12 minutes ago, Buttless said:

Im from the midwest and Missouri is definitely not midwestern in any way im familiar with,  culturally.  I dont identify with Arkansas or any of Miss, either. I think we need more than a few names to put to places.

 

What about Adora? Does she seem sufficiently Southern?

Yes  -- they all seem southern but I have a hard time knowing it is Missouri and thinking "southern".  

If you asked me to name a southern state, I would name VA, NC, SC, GA, AL, TN, FL, MS, LA, AR then I would name KY, TX and I probably would never name Missouri.  

A quick google reference: 

Quote

Missouri typically is categorized as both a Midwestern and a southern state. The region was split on Union and Confederate issues during the Civil War. A small region of the state is called Little Dixie for the influx of southerners that settled there. 

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Little Dixie is a historic 13- to 17-county region of mid-to-upper-mid Missouri along the Missouri River, settled at first primarily by migrants from the hemp and tobacco districts of Kentucky, Virginia, and Tennessee. Because Southerners settled there first, the pre-Civil War culture was similar to that of the Upper South.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Dixie_(Missouri)

However Little Dixie is geographically more in the center of the state near Jefferson City than "spitting distance"from Tennessee.

[Butless]

13 minutes ago, DFWGina said:

Yes  -- they all seem southern but I have a hard time knowing it is Missouri and thinking "southern".  

If you asked me to name a southern state, I would name VA, NC, SC, GA, AL, TN, FL, MS, LA, AR then I would name KY, TX and I probably would never name Missouri.  

A quick google reference: 

However Little Dixie is geographically more in the center of the state near Jefferson City than "spitting distance"from Tennessee.

Southerners migrated en masse to lot of northern and western states, over the last 150 years, bringing some of their ways and beliefs with them. But overall they didnt seem to change the entire region. Just their little areas.

[iMonrey]

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We really don’t know the context but the clues we have is that this might’ve happened on Camille’s birthday. It seems in the flashes we see of Camille in her cheerleading uniform, it all might be from the same day. She sees her mother sobbing on her dead sister’s bed, she tries to escape the house, runs off on Allan and Gayla with the birthday cake, we see her later singing to herself, and the flashes of her in the woods with the boys.

The length of young Camille's hair is also a continuity issue. Her hair is short in scenes where her sister is still alive - but her hair is long in the scene where she's running through the woods. Was her hair that long when her sister died? It would have taken a long time, more than a year, to grow from a pixie cut to almost waist-length. I'm having a hard time piecing together the sequence of events in these flashbacks. 

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Why was Adora freaking the fuck out when Amma ran way?  That was way too dramatic.  She ran away - it's not like someone saw something suspicious happen to her.  She is out of the house every damn night!  

I agree it seemed like everyone over-reacted in the extreme. Amma just ran off somewhere because she was upset or whatever . . . it was broad daylight and she'd been gone literally minutes before the entire town formed a posse to search for her. WTF?

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I'm from the deep south and just have a hard time with Missouri discussed as being southern.  To me, its the midwest.  This town seems more like Northwest Mississippi or Arkansas to me.

The boot heel of Missouri is generally considered to be southern - it's at the same geographical latitude as Arkansas or Tennessee. Plus if you ever travel through the Ozarks you'll definitely run into some hillbillies.

[Butless]

KY and TX also think of themselves as the South. I dont know how KY doesnt. 

[SHD]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

The length of young Camille's hair is also a continuity issue. Her hair is short in scenes where her sister is still alive - but her hair is long in the scene where she's running through the woods. Was her hair that long when her sister died? It would have taken a long time, more than a year, to grow from a pixie cut to almost waist-length. I'm having a hard time piecing together the sequence of events in these flashbacks. 

 

 

I thought of the hair thing too, but then I did the math.  Camille looks about 12-ish maybe when her sister died.  If she's a senior in high school in the woods scenes, that would make her 17 or 18.  So about 5 years between the two.  Hair grows about 6" a year, so that's more than enough time to allow for the long hair in the high school age scenes.

[iMonrey]

I think the problem is that the girl playing "young Camille" in the flashbacks is visibly the same age whether she's supposed to be 12 or 17, so that makes it confusing, timeline-wise.

[JohnnyRotten]

On 2018-08-06 at 5:15 PM, Juliegirlj said:

Did I imagine it or did Amma and one of the boys drop acid or take some kind of drug before the play? 

I will overlook Chris Messina’s tightie blackie underwear because he is so hot and sexy . 

Vickery’s wife knows something is up with Adora and her man. 

Does Mr Lacy feel guilty for his part in Camille’s assault or whatever that was ?

  Reveal hidden contents

Could Mr Lacy be wondering if Amma is his or one of the other guy’s daughter ? I still get the feeling that Amma is Camille’s daughter from the sex in the woods with multiple boys. 

Upset or not, I felt like Camille should have marched into Amma’s room and asked her what the Hell that stunt was all about. 

At first I thought he had the good sense to feel guilty. But after they way he talked to her in this episode (and how happy he is in the flashback when he is about to rape Camille) I wonder if he has some kind of gross crush/obsession with her?

[carrps]

23 hours ago, LilaFowler said:

Patricia Clarkson played a mother who hates her daughter in Pieces of April. It's phenomenal. Watch it with a box of tissues.

Yeah, great movie. Katie Holmes was good in it, too.

[scrb]

Do we know for certain when Camille started cutting, especially what precipitated it?

Also, difference between merely cutting as she did with the bolts from the toilet seat, to carving letters all over her body?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

8 hours ago, scrb said:

Speaking of music, anyone know the songs over the closing credits of this episode?

i think there were two.  And one of the choruses was something about Palante.

 

8 hours ago, zobot81 said:

I was too lazy to shazaam it, but I also wanna know which song was playing as soon as the end-credits rolled...I believe there were two... I didn't care for the second one.

FYI - the songs for each episode are listed in the music thread.

[ShellsandCheese]

On 8/6/2018 at 6:40 PM, Penman61 said:

(emphasis added)

The gentlest way I can say this is that the show hasn't given us enough information to know to what extent Camille consented in that situation.  I would also question the viability of "consent" in ANY scenario of multiple boys vs. one teenage girl.  Finally, even assuming consent and some kind of equal playing field in terms of power: As a general proposition, Camille consenting to and enjoying sex is absolutely fine and human, regardless of the number of partners.

Also I’m pretty sure it was implied that she lost her virginity during that incident. Most inexperienced teenage girls aren’t going to have sex with multiple boys / men the first time they have sex. The understanding I got from the scene was that it was definitely rape; Camille didn’t consent. She either felt like she couldn’t say no, and just went along with it or they physically forced her. Either way, it’s rape. She puts up a good front and says it was normal and she was a full participant, but look at her life. Clearly, that incident left significant mental and psychological damage. 

 

Also as the other posted stated, women who have consensual sex on their own terms with who they want aren’t sluts. 

Edited August 8, 2018 by ShellsandCheese

[JakeyJokes]

I think this would have worked better as a four-hour miniseries like CBS would do in the old days. So much of this feels like "hurry up and wait".

Still watching for the amazing performances. Elizabeth Perkins is KILLING it. I want to learn so much more about Jackie! How does she know everything about everybody?

The Calhoun Day thing is so odd because I live in Minneapolis and they renamed Lake Calhoun because its namesake (who was Southern and has no ties to Minnesota, anyway) was a slave owner and it was such a hullabaloo and now if you still call it Lake Calhoun people will infer you are a racist.

Monique Heart was a contestant on "RuPaul's Drag Race" last season. She was based in St. Louis and referred to MO as a Confederate state.

[Alice Mudgarden]

I think this may have been my favorite episode so far. Such darkness in such a bright, colorful setting.

Amy Adams and Chris Messina have good chemistry and Patricia Clarkson is such a fantastic actress.

And for those who still nerd out over the words like I do :):

Spoiler

There weren't a lot of instances throughout the episode. The opening got a lot of words in one fell swoop instead.

- On the side of the train: "wretched", "trash", "nasty", "bitch", "cry", "nag"

- The Calhoun Day banner (the one that dropped for the play) read "Shallow Day" in a shot

[SarahPrtr]

21 hours ago, IDreamofJoaquin said:

I thought the dress for Camille was odd.  It was sheer on the arms and back.  Someone would not have noticed her scars underneath?  

 

I feel like Adora did it on purpose to provoke her.  They weren't even short-sleeved dresses, they were strappy ones which would have shown a LOT of skin.  That's just Adora being a bitch, just to mess with someone and feel like she has control over other people's emotions.

 

Every time I see the name 'Amma', I still say Ahh-Mah...

[bijoux]

This town is such a collection of vile, spiteful, stupid people that I’m convinced they must be inbred. Really, who isn’t a shithead aside from Jackie? Maybe Sabrina, the teenage witch’s aunt, but that’s pretty much it.

On 06. 08. 2018. at 1:23 PM, Anela said:

Were they hinting at something between Amma, and one of the boys? Was she upset by not having the attention of her sister, or the detective, or did she see someone else? She looked disturbed just before the fight broke out. 

I wouldn’t be surprised if she did have something going on with him, but I felt there was more hinting to her and her creepy, drunk teacher.

On 06. 08. 2018. at 3:40 PM, jeansheridan said:

-Was the teacher's wife eyeballing him and Amma?

-Did the show mess up costuming? Amma was in costume with her friends, hair up and fancy when Camille woke up. But she had on a sundress and hair down to the dress store. For a show that messes with time/memory seems like like a big error.

1. The wife was definitely eyeballing them. I guess in her mind Camille might want her man. On the subject of wives eyeballing their husbands and other women, Vickery’s wife was also throwing glances his and Adora’s way. Coupled with the comment about Preaker women liking men with badges, it sure looks like posters who suspected the two of them being a thing at some point were on the right track.

2. This happened last week as well, now I’m certain it’s got to be intentional. I don’t know whether it’s a statement about Camille being an unreliable narrator or something else, maybe it will never even be explained, but it feels like too much now for it to just be something that slipped through.

On 06. 08. 2018. at 9:20 PM, iMonrey said:

I don't think I understand what exactly went down with Camille and the football players back in the day. Am I supposed to understand at this point? From what I can gather it was more or less a gang-rape situation but everyone - including Camille - is treating it as though it were a consensual thing. 

 

15 hours ago, prettybird said:

I was wondering about what happened to Camille with the boys in the woods in relation to Millie Calhoun and the union soldiers. Millie was gang raped and suffered in silence. I think Camille was also raped but let everyone believe it was consensual (suffering in silence). Millie did it protect her husband. Did Camille want to protect her mother? She mentioned girls of the town paying for the sins of their mothers. Adora had Camille very young and out of wedlock. I’m sure in that small town it was a scandal that she was shamed for. With allowing everyone to believe she willingly slept with the boys instead of going to police, was she avoiding the scandal of rape?

From my perspective it was definitely rape, although no one involved classifies it as such. On Camille’s part I don’t think it’s about protecting Adora as it is about protecting herself. My interpretation is that seeing herself as a promiscuous teen rather than being gang raped was easier to cope.

On the subject of Adora’s teenage pregnancy, I get the impression that shit doesn’t stick to her and while this would definitely mark both the girl and her child if it were anyone else in question, like the girl whose lesbian mom committed suicide, it didn’t make a dent in Adora’s shell.

48 minutes ago, SarahPrtr said:

I feel like Adora did it on purpose to provoke her.  They weren't even short-sleeved dresses, they were strappy ones which would have shown a LOT of skin.  That's just Adora being a bitch, just to mess with someone and feel like she has control over other people's emotions.

It’s definitely Adora being controlling. Another piece of mind fuckery is her swiping Camille’s clothes from the wardrobe door. Amma’s mean girl genes were showing there.

Unrelated to anything, I enjoyed the big straw hats. I loved Camille’s and especially Ashley’s.

[Butless]

On 8/7/2018 at 11:21 AM, zobot81 said:

Fair.

I guess I'm of a certain age where I don't see how I could possibly use that word in a positive way -- I especially dislike it when woman call other women sluts in a pejorative way.

But it gives me hope to know that young women are reclaiming any word that once worked against us.  Why not?

 I saw this and thought of this conversation.   Dines has a good point that 'sluts dont exist because they were made up by men.' lol

I cant say this is where the term came from  or that it just sounds like it, based on what the Slut Walk founder says about it's her choice to call herself a slut. 3rd Wave Feminism  has been called 'I choose my choice' feminism in part because critics see it as a convoluted construct in which  women choose to adopt for themselves a life of the traditional objectification done by men,  but instead of them being oppressed by it, that they instead call it 'sex positivity,' when it is their conscious choice to accept it.

 

On 8/7/2018 at 10:35 PM, Alice Mudgarden said:

I think this may have been my favorite episode so far. Such darkness in such a bright, colorful setting.

Amy Adams and Chris Messina have good chemistry and Patricia Clarkson is such a fantastic actress.

And for those who still nerd out over the words like I do :):

  Hide contents

There weren't a lot of instances throughout the episode. The opening got a lot of words in one fell swoop instead.

- On the side of the train: "wretched", "trash", "nasty", "bitch", "cry", "nag"

- The Calhoun Day banner (the one that dropped for the play) read "Shallow Day" in a shot

JC; I am totally missing all these words. And Im kinda glad about that, because I find it kind of cheesey, to have to always be prompted how to feel . If I have to be literally thrown words to clue me into how to feel, then I dont think the filmmakers are doing their damn job very well. i should be able to pick it up from the movie alone, and especially in a production like this, where a lot of stuff seems to be filler. If they hae the time to put in filler, they should be rounding this storyout in a more clear way. "Shallow Day" , my ass.

I also dont see any chemistry between Messina and Adams. Maybe it has to do with the fact that I dont find either of them sexy , in the least. Both kind of look nauseated when theyre trying to look sexy. The way they curl  their lips or something, evokes nausea, not lust.

Clarkston is so great at the kind of scenes where shes having a bratty meltdown, like when shes on her knees on  the porch, yelling for Amma.  Anyone else would not have had the lightness that she brings to the character. They would have gone fulltilt brooding or angry (think Jess Lange).

And that  dress she wore with teh garish sequined  bees, flowers and crochet applique, looks like what passes for high fashion in Southern boutiques ; too perfect.

I dont like Camille's boss and  was glad she hung up on him. I didnt see it as her not being able to take a compliment. I saw it as him being a typical asshole man, sending her to a very harmful place for her, literally, on the pretext that she needed to 'man up' and work things out.  He had no idea what kind of mother she had, her up bringing, no idea of the danger at all in sending an alcoholic and cutter into the lair of the beast. Yet he thought he was right in what he was doing, without listening to her, at all.  And frankly, hes all concerned about her whipping up a story about dead little girls, for his readers entertainment, first and foremost; winning awards, secondly.  Stopping a killer ssounds like lip service.  And as someone said, why is his wife always there off to the side when he calls Camille? She really offers nothing. I could care less about this man's supposed goodwill toward Camille, or her's. She doesnt pass the Bledchel test.   Maybe shes there so this guy doesnt sound like he's pervving on Camille? Not working. He sounds like he's overstepping his boss role constantly with her. I assume theres maybe book  or backstory that goes into this that we arent seeing?  I just find  it more annoying than helpful or comforting. Hes the jackass overstepping himself with her. So when he says shit like, 'We're here for you , kiddo,' it rings a false bell thats full of shit.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Buttless

[IDreamofJoaquin]

6 hours ago, SarahPrtr said:

I feel like Adora did it on purpose to provoke her.  They weren't even short-sleeved dresses, they were strappy ones which would have shown a LOT of skin.  That's just Adora being a bitch, just to mess with someone and feel like she has control over other people's emotions.

No, I mean the one she actually wore for Calhoun Day.  It was sheer white on the sleeves and back.  The one Amma gave her.

[jeansheridan]

51 minutes ago, IDreamofJoaquin said:

was sheer white on the sleeves and back.  The one Amma gave her.

This annoyed me too about the dress. If Richard is really into her, he is looking her over and he would have seen them through the fabric. More so because arms and shoulders are generally safe to gaze at. And since he didn't notice  he isn't much of a cop.

So yeah another wardrobe fail. 

[hendersonrocks]

Just got around to watching this last night, and enjoyed the OMFG what is this-ness of Calhoun Days. THAT PLAY, ya'll.

Two small-ish things I noticed and am wondering if they'll be relevant down the line or if they were just Easter egg-y:

1) The little boy who allegedly saw one of the girls (Ann, I think?) disappear into the woods was running around in some scenes, putting food and drinks into a bag. (His mom is the cancer patient and addict who tried to charge Camille for a conversation with the kid.)

2) Seeing him reminded me about the "Lady in White" mythology - and then that's what we saw in the woods when Camille was tracking Amma. I know it's most likely that was Amma herself, being the sociopath she is, but it made me think back to this and wonder if it's going to reappear in the storyline.

[zobot81]

I misspoke in my first post in this thread: For the first time in the series, Adora does Camille a kindness.

 

The truth is, I never loved you.

 

This is the truth that Camille needs to hear from her mother.  While those words sound impossibly cruel and cold on the face of it, at least they have the power to shatter the mother myth for Camille, once and for all.  They certainly have an immediately devastating effect on her, but I think with time, she'll come to accept that Adora never did love her, and that she in fact understood it along.

Of course, I was initially gutted for poor Camille.  But that pain subsided into relief.  Because maybe she can finally get past the maternal love fantasy, and get on with the real possibility that love exists.

I think Camille has what it takes to reclaim her life.  That is my newest and best hope for our so badly damaged protagonist -- to find a little bit of true love for herself.  And forgiveness.

[cpcathy]

I think Camille's boss did her a GREAT disservice by insisting she go there to cover the story. There was NO ONE else? They sound like they are supposed to be close, but a cutter alcoholic whose issues arise from her family and hometown should not be sent back to her family and hometown!