S02.E12: Postpartum

[lucindabelle]

 Of course I prefer June to Serena, I think the idea that the baby is crying for her real mother is a huge slap in the face to adoptive mothers, and to all of us born in the 60s who are not breast-fed! I mean, come on, don’t they have formula in this world? Neither I nor any of my friends were breast-fed because it wasn’t the thing in the 60s and we all grew up and are relatively fine, I’d say! In the world where all the babies are going to be adopted why haven’t they figured this out? It’s not as if formula didn’t exist in the 20t century. Honestly, it feels as if the show runners are too young to even remember that. 

And it feels like a way to shoehorn in more June pain.

Like it or not, Serena is behaving perfectly appropriately as an adoptive mom, we’re only critical because we know that the biological mom did not want to give this baby up.

That said, I am here for the slow walking Serena joy redemptive arc. To me, it made perfect sense that she rejected June‘s offer of sympathy when she had been humiliated, because I have seen proud people react that way. This offer of sympathy was different, it was just a human gesture of empathy, and I believe Serena joy seriously appreciated it. I think she truly does have maternal feelings and she saw those two teens on the diving board as children, and the quote that she read from the Bible had something to do with that. Her face as she offered the baby to June was not resignation or dammit I can’t think of anything else, it was gratitude and understanding.

 

 I think she truly does have maternal feelings and she saw those two teens on the diving board as children, and the quote that she read from the Bible had something to do with that. Her face as she offered the baby to June was not resignation or dammit I can’t think of anything else, it was gratitude and understanding.

 

I only wish the show hadn’t been extended for so long that the redemptive art has to be drawn out.

 

I totally bought the Romeo and Juliet list of Isaac and Aedin, they were two teenagers who found one another, I didn’t need much to buy into it.And of course if Nick feels guilty he’s right to feel guilty, because if he had extended the least effort to his love starved wife she might not have noticed the age appropriate teenager who is interested in her.

 

And of course if Nick feels guilty he’s right to feel guilty, because if he had extended the least effort to his love starved wife she might not have noticed the age appropriate teenager who is interested in her.

 

Unfortunately I believe that Lawrence is a sadist, his questions were designed to upset Emily. I would love to be wrong. He seems to still love his wife who yells at him, and clearly his threats to the martha are empty. I assumed his good old days about losing her hand was sarcastic but I am not sure. In any case it’s interesting and we can all be grateful for that!

Edited July 5, 2018 by lucindabelle

[ferjy]

On 7/4/2018 at 3:59 AM, watchTV said:

The only new thing is the eccentric commander Lawrence. First impression is he's sadistic. He has a maid with a gouged eye. He shoved his troubled wife who condemned his creation of the colonies. He sure did his research on Emily though. Why would he want a woman exposed to radiation to have his baby? Why would anyone want that at all?

Then there's June. She just doesn't think things through. It was her fault for planting seeds of pursuing love in that kid's head. And because THT writers like shock and drama, they decided to drown them for the sake of love. A tribute to Romeo and Juliet. Not.

Enter Serena with so much humanity in her tears. She is distraught about Eden. How do you go from raping a pregnant woman to that? Oh but they don't stop there. We must give the woman she helped rape a bonding moment. She allows June to hold her baby while Serena looks on with joy. Seriously?

This show is all sorts of mind twisting.

Oh, that’s an angle I didn’t think of, the sadistic commander. I thought he might be a good guy. He may not have had a choice making the colonies (maybe threats to loved ones?). Or maybe the wife is misinformed. He may take in the strays  (hence the maimed Martha). He’s a bit of a mystery at the moment. But he’s interesting and good to see something different to the usual bland commanders. I hope he’s one of the good ones. He might be feeling out Emily to see how strong she is, if he is part of the resistance and is trying to recruit her.

[maxineofarc]

9 hours ago, Quickbeam said:

Rewatched...chilled by the litter of weights at the bottom of the pool. 

Juxtaposed with the jaunty line of pennants strung over it.

[dleighg]

9 hours ago, Quickbeam said:

Rewatched...chilled by the litter of weights at the bottom of the pool. 

Me too. Though one would think they might want to reuse them in the interest of frugality.

Just before that I was thinking "Why the hell is Nick talking to Eden in what looks for all the world like a locker room?"  Cause it was the locker room in a High School. Such a benign place, with the lane markers and bleachers, for such a horrible thing.

[VagueDisclaimer]

26 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

 

That said, I am here for the slow walking Serena joy redemptive arc. To me, it made perfect sense that she rejected June‘s offer of sympathy when she had been humiliated, because I have seen proud people react that way. This offer of sympathy was different, it was just a human gesture of empathy, and I believe Serena joy seriously appreciated it. I think she truly does have maternal feelings and she saw those two teens on the diving board as children, and the quote that she read from the Bible had something to do with that. Her face as she offered the baby to June was not resignation or dammit I can’t think of anything else, it was gratitude and understanding.

 

Serena couldn’t extend that maternal feeling to mothers like June or those made into Marthas or those sent to the colonies or those killed outright who didn’t fit the picture of the kind of woman Gilead would approve of. Her maternal feeling didn’t extend to traumatized children tipped from their parents that weren’t suited for Gilead. Her maternal feeling was smiling in pride when a line of child brides who were barely into their teens were matched up with some men old enough to be their fathers. 

I don’t doubt that there were some maternal feelings, but abusive monsters can really like kids or puppies or save elephants and still remain abusive monsters. And i don’t think those maternal moments should excuse a thing or speak of some beginning of a redemptive arc. She was sweet to Janine’s baby too last season and this season. 

Edited July 5, 2018 by VagueDisclaimer

[The Mighty Peanut]

15 hours ago, rubinia said:

I thought Serena was almost hoping (even though she knew she wouldn’t) that she would miraculously lactate. She wants to be  the baby’s mother so badly that she wants to experience that connection that only a lactating mother can have with a baby. She doesn’t want June to touch, much less nurse, the baby.

Also, as someone who wasn’t able to produce enough milk for my own baby, it kind of bugs that this idea of “low milk supply” is somehow new and different? Does every woman in Gilead that gives birth automatically produce a ton of milk?

I was thinking that too, about low milk supply. Formula may be a second choice but not everyone can breastfeed. I wondered if there was a religious reasons she couldn't use it. There's a stigma to using formula already, one of my friends' coworkers made her cry because she had some kind of infection that made it impossible to breast feed. Basically accusing her of sentencing her baby to an early death. Anyway that's a whole other thing, but I do wonder if mother's milk only is the law in Gilead.

Edited July 5, 2018 by The Mighty Peanut

[ferjy]

After all that mystery and speculation, Nick turns up unharmed and a hero, going about his doing nothing as usual. The show drags and drags then suddenly leaps forward with no buildup whatsoever! Not to mention Eden and Isaac’s quickstep storyline. 

And “Nichole”, ha! I thought I misheard at first. Serena’s slap in the face to Fred?

[poeticlicensed]

10 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

Formula is created synthetically, it is a form of science, all of that technology was banned from Gilead.

I find it interesting that in an emergency, suddenly technology appears in Gilead, albeit behind closed doors. Like when June started bleeding during her pregnancy, suddenly she was strapped in and monitored by what looked like high tech equipment. I think that, like in some fascist regimes, the masses are told that technology is bad and reject it. But if it serves the aims of the upper echelon, then technology is a-ok, they just don't talk about it. Just another hypocrisy, to go along with all the others. 

I have a very hard time believing that in a society with fertility problems, where one birth is met with a massive celebration, that the inability to provide breast milk would mean that they would let a baby die. But declaring that babies must be breast fed because it's Gods will is a winning narrative for the regime. Birth control, formula, etc is what allowed women to enter the workforce, hence gave rise to women having power. Gilead is hell bent on the subjugation of women, so it makes sense that they glorify all things related to motherhood, including breastfeeding. I have no doubt that there's a back up plan for babies with bio moms what can't breastfeed. 

BTW, I loathe Serena with the fire of a thousand suns and yes, what she and Gilead did by normalizing essentially rape and baby stealing is abominable, but taking care of a new baby is a frustrating and exhausting. And if you aren't the prefect mother, you get just very harshly. I'm not surprised she didn't want any help from anyone. 

[Baltimore Betty]

Can anyone enlighten me about the cinnamon that June was supposed to get from the grocery store?  Rita said not to take no for an answer because they have a baby now.  Do they use cinnamon to make some sort of baby formula?

As far as the technology Gilead uses when it pleases them I noticed the very large bottle warmer in the kitchen.  I would have thought they would have used a pot of water to warm it up, that looks like it would be considered some new fangled fancy piece of electricity using equipment.  So maybe there are some allowances for some conveniences.

While all those knitted baby clothes are really beautiful they are hardly practical for everyday use, cotton onesies are much easier to wash, I can imagine Rita hand washing all the knitted stuff and trying to dry them maintaining their shape.

[dleighg]

5 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

Can anyone enlighten me about the cinnamon that June was supposed to get from the grocery store?  Rita said not to take no for an answer because they have a baby now.  Do they use cinnamon to make some sort of baby formula?

I guess I took it to mean that because they have a baby in the house, they get some special perks. I can't think of any way that cinnamon is particularly helpful to a baby, especially an exclusively breast-fed new born. Of course it could lightly flavor the breast milk, but it hardly seems necessary.

[Baltimore Betty]

14 minutes ago, poeticlicensed said:

BTW, I loathe Serena with the fire of a thousand suns and yes, what she and Gilead did by normalizing essentially rape and baby stealing is abominable, but taking care of a new baby is a frustrating and exhausting. And if you aren't the prefect mother, you get just very harshly. I'm not surprised she didn't want any help from anyone. 

I remember when my first was born, the frustration level mixed with my over active hormonally driven crying at the drop of a hat made me think I was the worst mother in the world.  Serena is not having the hormonal craziness and the physical fatigue but I can see how she would want to be perfect and make that perfect family, it's a universal thing for all mothers. I just wish the baby would throw up on her a dozen times a day till she has no more green dresses left in her closet. 

Edited July 5, 2018 by Baltimore Betty
Sentence structure

[ferjy]

13 hours ago, Ragingviolet said:

I haven't finished reading all the comments on the episode yet but I am really surprised to seeing so many people saying they like the new commander.  When he asked Emily if she had healed properly and she had this tear filled horrified look on her face I felt a tendril of ice go down my spine.  I mean he is a welcome addition but not because I think he will be a good person.  Did no one else respond to that scene in the same way?

I took it as being concerned for her health. If he is trying to recruit her, he wouldn’t want her passing out mid-mission. But the horror-filled alternative is a distinct possibility. I was just so happy to finally see a new and interesting plot line in the commander, I was ready to give him a big hug! the benefit of doubt.

Edited July 5, 2018 by ferjy

[nodorothyparker]

I know cinnamon is yet another one of those foods that's supposed to help support milk production, but my first thought on hearing it was that if everyone is refusing to trade with Gilead it's probably pretty hard for them to get their hands on, which is probably why Rita told June to push the issue.  Most cinnamon is grown in Asia and Southeast Asia.  There's a whole list of foods people will refer you to to help bolster nursing, but I'll be honest that I never stuck very closely to it.  Except for my first baby I struggled to pump for while he was in the NICU, I never had trouble with supply for my kids who could get it directly from the tap, so to speak.

Methods of how she got the baby aside, we know that Serena is desperate to prove to everyone, including herself, that she's the baby's "real mother."  Most first timers I've known, including myself, have struggled at some point with that sense that they had to prove they were up to the task and were crushed when it felt like they weren't.  Because in the end the baby doesn't care.  They don't know anything beyond wanting to be fed and dry and comforted.  Serena's done plenty of criticizing of Naomi Putnam that turned out to be well justified, so I don't doubt that she had a very exacting picture in her head of how much better she was going to be at it when her turn finally came.  A child who squalls and squalls and squalls no matter how many frilly outfits you put on her and doesn't want your dry breast probably wasn't part of that.  She wants that awful stilted family picture hanging in Fred's shiny new office.

[TexasGal]

Adding to the formula discussion, maybe it's due to the really low birth rates, but it seems like if one of the handmaids turned out to have a great supply of milk, wouldn't they try to set up some kind of nurse maid situation if they don't use formula?

Kudos to whoever coined Commander Lemon-Lyman (I tried to find out again but can't!), I will think of him as that forever.  Unless he turns out to be completely horrible, and taints my swoony memories of Josh too much.

[ferjy]

14 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

They are hilarious. The one I had to use had clear cups - and let's just say it's pretty astonishing how the process actually works when you can see it.

Like milking a cow. ;-)

[watch2much]

I find it interesting that it seems as if only girl babies are born.  first Angela, then Holly.

also, why didn't they make Eden a Handmaid?  she was young, could have been fertile....I guess infidelity is right up there with murdering a Gilead big shot. 

[nodorothyparker]

I'd be interested to known what Gilead's idea of "common mercy" would have been had Eden confessed to her "sin" as the officiant was clearly imploring them both to do.  Handmaid, Colonies,  we simply don't know because she chose to die instead.  We're left to speculate.

[ferjy]

9 hours ago, LittleRed84 said:

This has been discussed on other threads as well, but it has been established that a woman is only made a handmaid if she has been proven fruitful: given birth. Every handmaid has has a child previously, proving they are fertile. Eden has not, so this is why Gildead would not make her a handmaid. 

And she told Nick that they tested her to make sure she wasn’t pregnant so in their eyes, not a good sign that she’s fertile.

[Ragingviolet]

How are they glorifying biological mothers? I haven't noticed any of that.

 

As re: the discussion about what do they do if a mother has low milk production or can't produce. Women are built to produce milk. Low milk production or not producing is actually not the norm. In today's world it's just harder to deal with because new mothers do not have the support mothers would have had when there was no formula. If woman's whole purpose in life was to just birth a baby and feed it I doubt there would be an issue with milk production. She's be forced to eat and drink whatever it took to encourage milk. She'd get as much rest as she needed, she'd get help from other women, and she'd nurse as many times a day as was necessary to bring up her production.

 

I'm not saying forcing these things on women is right but the reality is biologically if these things were done then low milk production would be easily addessed.

[WearyTraveler]

23 minutes ago, Ragingviolet said:

How are they glorifying biological mothers? I haven't noticed any of that.

 

As re: the discussion about what do they do if a mother has low milk production or can't produce. Women are built to produce milk. Low milk production or not producing is actually not the norm. In today's world it's just harder to deal with because new mothers do not have the support mothers would have had when there was no formula. If woman's whole purpose in life was to just birth a baby and feed it I doubt there would be an issue with milk production. She's be forced to eat and drink whatever it took to encourage milk. She'd get as much rest as she needed, she'd get help from other women, and she'd nurse as many times a day as was necessary to bring up her production.

 

I'm not saying forcing these things on women is right but the reality is biologically if these things were done then low milk production would be easily addessed.

It's not exclusive to modern times, though.  The use of a nursemaid was pretty normal in times when women had very little else to do but birth babies and be in charge of the household.  Some did it out of convenience, I'm sure, but many simply had problems and had to resort to a nursemaid to supplement their child.

[Ragingviolet]

1 minute ago, WearyTraveler said:

It's not exclusive to modern times, though.  The use of a nursemaid was pretty normal in times when women had very little else to do but birth babies and be in charge of the household.  Some did it out of convenience, I'm sure, but many simply had problems and had to resort to a nursemaid to supplement their child.

It was only rich women who could do this so more than likely out of convenience. I'm not saying low production isn't a thing I'm saying it's not so common that if you barely are having any babies born and you basically using the biological mother as a cow it probably isn't too much of an issue.

[chaifan]

12 hours ago, Quickbeam said:

Rewatched...chilled by the litter of weights at the bottom of the pool. 

I thought that was interesting, but for another reason.  I was amazed that the water was so clear, even earlier in the scene as they were drowning and then the bodies shown lifeless.  It takes a lot to keep a pool clean, especially one in which people are thrown into fully clothed, shoes, bodily fluids, etc., and I have a hard time believing there is a steady stream of pool chemicals at hand.  When I saw the other weights, it added to the implausibility of a clean pool - those should really be rusting and filling the water with all sorts of nasty stuff.  So I liked the weights from a tone perspective - this is the purpose of this pool - but not from a reality perspective. 

[rubinia]

If we assume that formula is forbidden, surely there's another wet nurse-type situation? I don't mean to harp on this but I'm just thinking that there'd have to be other options if a woman simply could not produce enough breastmilk. Babies are too precious to let them starve to death.

[WearyTraveler]

10 minutes ago, Ragingviolet said:

It was only rich women who could do this so more than likely out of convenience. I'm not saying low production isn't a thing I'm saying it's not so common that if you barely are having any babies born and you basically using the biological mother as a cow it probably isn't too much of an issue.

I understand, if everything in the world of Gilead was normal except for the fertility problem, then yes, what you say will probably apply.

 

But we don't know if the issue of low production and quality of the milk is affected in this world.  Something happened that caused fertility rates to drop, so, that same something or another thing that is related to that something could be causing a problem with the biological mothers' milk production.

 

We just don't know if the show intends for this issue to be another biological problem of the Gilead universe, like the fertility issue, or if the show is playing fast and lose with biology to pull our heartstrings.  I suspect the latter, but will give them the benefit of the doubt for now.  That's why one of my earlier posts about this started with "If the writers are smart" they will attribute  June's milk issues as another biological process unique to their universe (as the fertility one is).

Edited July 5, 2018 by WearyTraveler

[Ragingviolet]

2 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

I understand, if everything in the world of Gilead was normal except for the fertility problem, then yes, what you say will probably apply.

 

But we don't know if the issue of low production and quality of the milk is affected in this world.  Something happened that caused fertility rates to drop, so, that same something or another thing that is related to that something could be causing a problem with the biological mothers' milk production.

 

We just don't know if the show intends for this issue to be another biological problem of the Gilead universe, like the fertility issue, or if the show is playing fast and lose with biology to pull our heartstrings.  I suspect the latter, but will give them the benefit of the doubt for now.  That's why one of my earlier posts about this started with "If the writers are smart" they explain June's milk issues as another biological process unique to their universe (as the fertility one is).

I don't think the show is playing fast and loose with biology if this is only a June thing. I assumed her production was low because she's exclusively pumping. This is why it's so hard for working moms who have demanding jobs to breastfeed because milk production is effected if the mom only pumps. I imagine it would be even worse if the mom wasn't even near the baby ever. They actually got that right in the series. The mother's state of mind can also effect production as well. 

[VagueDisclaimer]

16 minutes ago, rubinia said:

If we assume that formula is forbidden, surely there's another wet nurse-type situation? I don't mean to harp on this but I'm just thinking that there'd have to be other options if a woman simply could not produce enough breastmilk. Babies are too precious to let them starve to death.

I agree that their likely is a wet nurse situation, because some women simply don’t produce enough and women die during childbirth as well. But i don’t think babies are precious enough to this society, or they would produce or import formula and it wouldn’t have been a covert op to get that qualified doctor turned Martha to attempt to help Janine’s baby. It’s much more about keeping women controlled and in their place than the babies. 

[GraceK]

Also, being near your own child and hearing them cry also does in fact trigger the let down of milk. Ripping the baby away from June like Serena did, and forcing her to just pump without even the benefit of skin to skin is what was causing the low milk supply in my opinion. I don’t think it’s glorifying biological motherhood to say that. There’s a reason they want the handmaids to stay and nurse the babies until they are weaned. I don’t see how it’s a controversial stance to state the obvious. Depression and mental trauma also can also mess with a mothers milk supply as well.

Edited July 5, 2018 by GraceK

[SHD]

I did so many flips in regards to Commander Lawrence.  At first, because Emily was being sent there, I figured it was a torturous place where they sent the trouble handmaids.  But then when he shoved Aunt Lydia out so quickly, I thought maybe he sought out resisters to help them. But then I saw how he treated his wife and thought "Nope, terrible." But he lets his Martha talk back to him, so...maybe he doesn't have the superiority thing going on?  Then he had a calm conversation where he seemed concerned about Emily's past life - maybe good! Then he creepily asked if she thought she'd healed from her punishment surgery and I gave up.

[GraceK]

Anyone else feel that Commander Lawrence looked like he stepped right out of Park Slope Brooklyn? Especially that house!!

Edited July 5, 2018 by GraceK

[rubinia]

1 hour ago, VagueDisclaimer said:

I agree that their likely is a wet nurse situation, because some women simply don’t produce enough and women die during childbirth as well. But i don’t think babies are precious enough to this society, or they would produce or import formula and it wouldn’t have been a covert op to get that qualified doctor turned Martha to attempt to help Janine’s baby. It’s much more about keeping women controlled and in their place than the babies. 

Babies are incredibly precious in this society—that’s why the handmaid role was created in the first place!

[VagueDisclaimer]

13 minutes ago, rubinia said:

Babies are incredibly precious in this society—that’s why the handmaid role was created in the first place!

In my opinion, with how women are treated, especially the handmaids, babies have become an excuse to be able to control and have power over women and their bodies. It might’ve started that way, but at this point, it is the banner held up, but not the actual practice in this society. 

[GraceK]

8 minutes ago, VagueDisclaimer said:

In my opinion, with how women are treated, especially the handmaids, babies have become an excuse to be able to control and have power over women and their bodies. It might’ve started that way, but at this point, it is the banner held up, but not the actual practice in this society. 

I agree. I really don’t think babies are as precious as they claim to be. This whole situation with June being withheld from nursing Holly wouldn’t have been allowed to happen , no matter what Serena said if the end result was truly a healthy baby. The same thing with Janine’s baby. The fact that Fred was willing to let a baby possibly die rather then let a WOMAN doctor take a look was ridiculous. If healthy babies and the continuation of humanity were truly the endgame for this regime they wouldn’t be torturing handmaids  and killing possible fertile 15 year olds. It’s all about power, control and subjugation, and they used babymaking as a way to get the wives to agree.

[Ragingviolet]

Why would baby making make the wives agree?

[GraceK]

14 minutes ago, Ragingviolet said:

Why would baby making make the wives agree?

I should have been more clear I’m sorry. I meant , framing Gilead as beneficial to mankind, as a way to have children and get world back to a safe and moral place. I’m sure they didn’t let their wives in all the torture and lack of reading and freedoms. Losing fingers and gouging out eyes? Letting children die? I’m sure that wasn’t in the brochure . I’m not saying the wives are innocent lambs, they are complicit in everything that has gone on. I’m just stating that’s it’s easy to go along with monstrosities when you believe you are sincerely doing it for a higher purpose. Aunt Lydia certainly is in purely for the benefit of the babies at least and Serena herself desperately wants and loves children.

[EssieMay]

The writers are getting more and more sloppy. Can’t write your way out of a blind alley? Just fast forward six weeks. I could swear they said Eden and Isaac were found guilty of “infidelity”. Religious folk would almost certainly use the word “adultery”. It grieves me because Margaret Atwood’s writing is so immaculately precise. I know she is a producer but her voice seems increasingly absent.

 

Fred. Is the perfect example of what undeserved power does to weak people. He started out as the sidekick of a brilliant wife. In the days before Gilead he was the type of man who was attracted to strong women but ultimately feels emasculated and blames it on the women, not recognizing that his weakness originates inside himself. Now he uses the power  that came to him by default (thank you Mr. Penis) to try to feel more of a man. Serena and most of the women around him will always outrank him in intellect, in emotional intelligence, and in self-awareness so he has to constantly assert his will by force. He rages when they defy him because it reminds him that his power is not genuine. He believes that women are superior to him and hates them for it yet he fetishizes June’s pregnant body and her lactating breasts because they represent an authentic power he can never have. He cannot even control a sheltered meek fifteen-year-old girl, let alone a woman who can create life. He is both literally and figuratively impotent and is lapsing into an insanity that comes from realizing that even in Gilead he is powerless in any way that matters.

 

Serena. She knows what she has done is wrong. The ceremony rapes, the rape rape, taking another woman’s child. All of it. She knows that Gilead is not what it pretends to be. June’s presence reminds her of all she has done, of the shame she must bear. If she can banish June to the postpartum milking barn she can pretend that she is the real mommy.  She plays mommy with the baby like it’s a new phone, exploring all the settings and features, and quickly becomes frustrated like any inexperienced new mother. If the child will just accept her dry breast, but no Serena, you are not the mommy; you are the cocreator of a horror story and you are too smart and too aware to ignore it for long.

 

The New Commander. My hope is that he vetted Emily and chose her because he saw a potential ally. I don’t know what he’s up to but his household certainly does not fit the mold. An obedient handmaid would be likely to report any questionable behavior to Aunt Lydia. Will Emily keep his secrets if he gives her freedom from the ceremony or information about her wife and son?

[jhjhjh]

5 minutes ago, EssieMay said:

The writers are getting more and more sloppy. Can’t write your way out of a blind alley? Just fast forward six weeks. I could swear they said Eden and Isaac were found guilty of “infidelity”. Religious folk would almost certainly use the word “adultery”. It grieves me because Margaret Atwood’s writing is so immaculately precise. I know she is a producer but her voice seems increasingly absent.

Maybe with THT specifically, but having read 10 of her books, I don't know if I would consider her writing consistently immaculate and un-sloppy.

I'm hoping next season they give us flashbacks for the last 3 cast members without them, especially Lydia.

[chaifan]

11 minutes ago, EssieMay said:

The New Commander. My hope is that he vetted Emily and chose her because he saw a potential ally. I don’t know what he’s up to but his household certainly does not fit the mold. An obedient handmaid would be likely to report any questionable behavior to Aunt Lydia. Will Emily keep his secrets if he gives her freedom from the ceremony or information about her wife and son?

Are any of the current stock of handmaids truly obedient, in the Gilead sense of things?  From the season 1 scenes in the Red Center, it seemed all were snatched away from relatively normal lives prior to the rise of Gilead, and all seemed to have the same "oh hell no" response when they realized they weren't being impregnated through artificial insemination, but through "the ceremony".  I remember one having the "it's better than prison, I get a home and fed" type attitude, and there are varying degrees of submissiveness among them, but my impression is obedience comes solely through fear and intimidation, not through a belief that this is the right way to do things.  At this point are there any who are "true believers" who would report a Commander who wasn't? 

That said, simply for plot purposes I really want Commander Lawrence to be the anti-Fred, and possibly even part of the resistance.  I just want/need to see that type of thing happening.  But that wouldn't explain his wife's outburst, so I'm doubting that will be the case.

[poeticlicensed]

20 minutes ago, jhjhjh said:

27 minutes ago, EssieMay said:

The writers are getting more and more sloppy. Can’t write your way out of a blind alley? Just fast forward six weeks. I could swear they said Eden and Isaac were found guilty of “infidelity”. Religious folk would almost certainly use the word “adultery”. It grieves me because Margaret Atwood’s writing is so immaculately precise. I know she is a producer but her voice seems increasingly absent.

Maybe with THT specifically, but having read 10 of her books, I don't know if I would consider her writing consistently immaculate and un-sloppy.

I'm hoping next season they give us flashbacks for the last 3 cast members without them, especially Lydia.

Sloppy or not, I find myself watching every second, the hour goes by in what seems like a couple of minutes. I am always surprised (and not), pissed, and SMH at every ep. When Fred was suggesting that June should be grateful to him, I was literally telling the TV that he better not touch her! This is the first show in a long time that has me waiting in anticipation for the next episode. I'll take what I can get (good TV), flaws and all. 

Edited July 5, 2018 by poeticlicensed

[millennium]

Part 24 of Elizabeth Moss doing the Barf Face.

Breast-pumping for those who have never seen it.

Oh, and more execution porn (hey show, it's tiresome now, not shocking).

Best Actress in a Tedious Melodrama again goes to Yvonne Strahovski.

[GraceK]

7 minutes ago, millennium said:

Best Actress in a Tedious Melodrama again goes to Yvonne Strahovski.

She’s killing it. I swear I couldn’t keep my eyes off her this episode. She brings out so many emotions in me...disgust, empathy, sympathy, anger, honestly she’s one of the most complicated and well developed female characters in television right now.

and on a shallow note I think her face is breathtaking.

Edited July 5, 2018 by GraceK

[VagueDisclaimer]

39 minutes ago, GraceK said:

She’s killing it. I swear I couldn’t keep my eyes off her this episode. She brings out so many emotions in me...disgust, empathy, sympathy, anger, honestly she’s one of the most complicated and well developed female characters in television right now.

and on a shallow note I think her face is breathtaking.

 

I’ve followed YS since her “Chuck” days and while I always liked her, I really had no idea she had *this* in her. I’m glad she has this opportunity to showcase her talent and range.

I’d say the same for Alexis Bledel, except I was never a fan of her acting. She always seemed very affected and mannered. She rips raw here, though, and it’s wonderful to see. Honestly, all the actresses are really wonderful, imo, though some are far too wasted and underused.

Edited July 5, 2018 by VagueDisclaimer

[millennium]

52 minutes ago, EssieMay said:

 

Fred. Is the perfect example of what undeserved power does to weak people. He started out as the sidekick of a brilliant wife. In the days before Gilead he was the type of man who was attracted to strong women but ultimately feels emasculated and blames it on the women, not recognizing that his weakness originates inside himself. Now he uses the power  that came to him by default (thank you Mr. Penis) to try to feel more of a man. Serena and most of the women around him will always outrank him in intellect, in emotional intelligence, and in self-awareness so he has to constantly assert his will by force. He rages when they defy him because it reminds him that his power is not genuine. He believes that women are superior to him and hates them for it yet he fetishizes June’s pregnant body and her lactating breasts because they represent an authentic power he can never have. He cannot even control a sheltered meek fifteen-year-old girl, let alone a woman who can create life. He is both literally and figuratively impotent and is lapsing into an insanity that comes from realizing that even in Gilead he is powerless in any way that matters.

 

Nice!

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, rubinia said:

If we assume that formula is forbidden, surely there's another wet nurse-type situation? I don't mean to harp on this but I'm just thinking that there'd have to be other options if a woman simply could not produce enough breastmilk. Babies are too precious to let them starve to death.

I think because of the whole "natural" thing breast milk is prized there, heck I just read that 83% of babies now get breast milk where even a few years ago it was under 10%.

That said, some babies are allergic to breast milk.  I was.  It devastated my mother, who had been trying for a baby for closing on 20 years.

Anyway, I also wonder about formula production.  Is Gilead actually even able to produce it?  Do we import most breast milk formula's now, something that the boycott wouldn't allow for Gilead?

3 hours ago, rubinia said:

Babies are incredibly precious in this society—that’s why the handmaid role was created in the first place!

I think babies are precious to some of the "mothers" and "fathers" there.  I think for most of the Commanders, and certainly from the design of Gilead, increasing the population is far more important, defensively, and for production.  They don't want the Gilead (former USA) population dying out.  In the book of course, this was

Spoiler

the white race dying out, black and other people of color in other parts of the world were still having plenty of babies. 

57 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Are any of the current stock of handmaids truly obedient, in the Gilead sense of things?  From the season 1 scenes in the Red Center, it seemed all were snatched away from relatively normal lives prior to the rise of Gilead, and all seemed to have the same "oh hell no" response when they realized they weren't being impregnated through artificial insemination, but through "the ceremony".  I remember one having the "it's better than prison, I get a home and fed" type attitude, and there are varying degrees of submissiveness among them, but my impression is obedience comes solely through fear and intimidation, not through a belief that this is the right way to do things.  At this point are there any who are "true believers" who would report a Commander who wasn't? 

 

No.  I don't think any of the women in Gilead actually believe any of this shit.  Maybe Lydia, perhaps a few especially dim wives.  Certainly not the Martha's or Handmaids, and I doubt many Econwives love not working or having money of their own, knowing their soldier husband could die at any minute in a war, and they could lose their child and become handmaids themselves.

They all tow the line because they have no choice.  Some are in the resistance.

[deSchenke]

It occurred to me that Nick should have withheld the information that Eden was missing as soon as he heard Isaac hadn't shown up for his shift.  Possibly it was a knee-jerk reaction and he didn't think it through.  Nick had to have known what would happen if the two of them were caught.  I think he should have waited at least 8 hours so they could get a head start on their escape.  Instead, he just blurted out to Fred that "we have a situation."

[Miles]

The writing for Serena is all over the place. I don't buy this as organic character development. The writers are lucky that they have a great actress who sells the hell out of it. I could almost believe it.

 

Have the gilleadians never heard of how important body contact is? I mean feed the baby from the bottle all you want, but take her clothes off and feed her on your bare chest woman. It's important for bonding and the health of the baby.

 

Seems weird that the weights are left in the pool and only the chains are removed. Seems like that would be extremely difficult under water. Also has no one ever thought of picking up the weight and walking to the shallow end? That went through my head the second I saw it. That might not save my life in the long run, but I'd try a spiel about how god saved my life and stuff. That might just work.

 

2 hours ago, deSchenke said:

It occurred to me that Nick should have withheld the information that Eden was missing as soon as he heard Isaac hadn't shown up for his shift.  Possibly it was a knee-jerk reaction and he didn't think it through.  Nick had to have known what would happen if the two of them were caught.  I think he should have waited at least 8 hours so they could get a head start on their escape.  Instead, he just blurted out to Fred that "we have a situation."

That would have gone really great for Nick, if she was found with Isaac. Not noticing that your wife was missing? How could that be? Maybe you even helped them escape.

Plus, what good would it have done Eden?

Edited July 5, 2018 by Miles

[LordOfLotion]

9 minutes ago, deSchenke said:

It occurred to me that Nick should have withheld the information that Eden was missing as soon as he heard Isaac hadn't shown up for his shift.  Possibly it was a knee-jerk reaction and he didn't think it through.  Nick had to have known what would happen if the two of them were caught.  I think he should have waited at least 8 hours so they could get a head start on their escape.  Instead, he just blurted out to Fred that "we have a situation."

Everybody on this show seems to be pretty dumb. I'm talking strategerie level witless here.

[VagueDisclaimer]

10 minutes ago, deSchenke said:

It occurred to me that Nick should have withheld the information that Eden was missing as soon as he heard Isaac hadn't shown up for his shift.  Possibly it was a knee-jerk reaction and he didn't think it through.  Nick had to have known what would happen if the two of them were caught.  I think he should have waited at least 8 hours so they could get a head start on their escape.  Instead, he just blurted out to Fred that "we have a situation."

They would’ve still searched for Isaac and found Eden with him and then Nick would’ve likely been in trouble for not reporting Eden’s absence. 

[Anela]

I'm watching, but I want to turn it off. Lydia just referred to June as "The source." ugh. That man stole her baby. 

[Clanstarling]

7 hours ago, ferjy said:

Like milking a cow. ;-)

LOL. Yep.

[Anela]

Fred has the audacity to be offended that June didn't want to go home with him? The man is insane. "Is that all the thanks I get?" Gross, gross. get away from her. 

No wonder his wife seems crazy. I think she told her husband he's disgusting, and she hates him, not Emily. She's one of the few sane people there.

Edited July 5, 2018 by Anela