S02.E10: The Passenger

[DarkRaichu]

3 minutes ago, capt planet said:

So if the Cats (Felix and Sylvester) bring Maeve back, do we think she'll spend a season trying to reopen the Valley Beyond, or will she go Kill All Humans on that ass?

As much as I like Maeve & co, I think she should stay dead as her mission (keeping her daughter safe) was completed.  There is no more door to the Valley Beyond, Dolores sent it out (to space, IMHO) so no one can touch it.

Speaking of the Cats, they were used well to explain that humans do not see the entrance to the valley (ie sky splitting open).  So to the humans, they just saw a bunch of bots jumping off the cliff :D :D :D

[Kanner]

3 hours ago, SourK said:

From a story-telling perspective, the thing I find most interesting about the finale is that the audience watched a bunch of characters appear to die (Maeve, Bernard, etc, etc) when they will almost definitely be back next season, and watched a bunch of characters appear to live when, if what we were told about robot heaven is true, they will almost definitely not come back again. I think that kind of messes up your reaction emotionally. Or it does mine. But it's interesting.

 

Thanks for this.  I am still feeling off about this episode (besides the confusion) and I think this is why. I can't decide how I feel about Teddy's end.  He was a favorite of mine and I know I should feel happy but I feel sad, like he died. Part of it is that Dolores made another choice FOR him and the choice was "you are only made for a fantasy world and not the real world". No matter if that is true or not I feel insulted for him. I don't feel that way about the others in the Valley because THEY made the choice to go. Plus with his core drive being Dolores, will being without her mess with him. On a selfish note, we probably won't see those in the Valley again and I will miss him.

[Uncle JUICE]

3 minutes ago, capt planet said:

So if the Cats (Felix and Sylvester) bring Maeve back, do we think she'll spend a season trying to reopen the Valley Beyond, or will she go Kill All Humans on that ass?

How did I miss this? Oh, probably blinded by all the unnecessarily convoluted stuff that ruined a show I loved with every fiber at the end of last season. Basically everyone's a host, and no one ever really dies, so there's no point to anything? When I'm most upset about Elsie dying because I'm not sure she was ever a host, there's a problem with your characters. You can't constantly invent ways for everyone to reappear, because as I said last week, then nothing means anything at all. This episode was worth watching for the way they filmed the Maeve / Bulls scene (not that it made a lot of sense but it looked amazing) but everything else can eat a dick. The show has gone past "everyone is probably a host" to "everyone is a host, and we're not even going to tell you which host is in which body! HAHHA!" Fuck you. Why the fuck was Peter Abernathy so stupidly important again? 

My favorite scene was Stubbs explaining in the least subtle way possible that he's also a host. I mean dude, really? "I was one of the EARLIEST hires, I was hired, BY FORD, directly. I was given A ROLE to play, and I HAVE ALWAYS PLAYED IT. I'm always aware of who to be LOYAL TO. Wink. Wink. Do you understand what I'm saying? What I mean is I might be...MORE THAN MEETS THE EYE. You might say security is my...CORE NARRATIVE. Also, you might say that instead of human, I might be...SOMETHING ELSE. That rhymes with 'toast.' And 'Most.' And starts with an H! What I'm saying is we're on the same side...because we both feel sometimes like we're just COGS...in a huge MACHINE...that we're a PART OF, like maybe...we're MACHINES! But that's all for you to think about on your boat ride. Have a good one!"

[Ellaria]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

Kind of interesting season finale, but ultimately there is a good chance I won't be back for season 3 :P

- The Dolores!Hale twist was pretty good, but not without hints.  Hale obviously knew about the failsafe flooding thing, but Dolores!Hale acted like she did not know what's going on (ie. once Strand and his team arrived).  Also, 2 or 3 episodes back. I found it odd Dolores!Hale's eyes were full of tear when she interrogated Bernard to get him to tell others where Abernathy's core was.

- Stubbs is a bot.  Ford (old man) hired him long ago Stubbs could not remember and Stubbs had a core drive.

- As for MiB epilogue: I saw it as he was still trying to perfect the tech to put human memory to bot in distant future.  But instead of Delos, William/MiB is now the subject of the test.  Also, he uses a bot version of his daughter to check for fidelity (to mimic how Dolores created Bernard).  The real MiB most likely never returned to the park after he was found barely alive by QA team, meaning that visit was his last memory recorded by the Forge.

 

Re the Dolores/Hale twist and the tears in her eyes: is this why we did not initially hear Bernard tell Charlotte about Abernathy's location? We saw his lips move but did not hear him. They purposely hid this conversation from us because...Hale Bot.

Is there independent confirmation that Stubbs is a bot? While that is the likely conclusion to be drawn from his conversation with Hale Bot, one never knows anything for certain with this show.

Thanks for that explanation about why the MIB in the epilogue was the bloody, beaten version. If that was the last time that he visited the park then it makes sense that it was the last recorded memory.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[Dame sans merci]

4 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Is there independent confirmation that Stubbs is a bot? While that is the likely conclusion to be drawn from his conversation with Hale Bot, one never knows anything for certain with this show.

One of the post-show interviews with Lisa Joy certainly suggests as such:

Quote

TheWrap: When Halores left the beach, it seemed like Stubbs new it was Dolores — or at least that it wasn’t Hale. Is that safe to assume?

Joy: Yes! It is safe to assume. And there is a step further that you can assume too. And we don’t say it explicitly, but if you are left wondering with all [Stubbs’] talk, his knowing talk about, “I’ve been at the park a very long time,” and Ford (Anthony Hopkins) designed him with certain core drives, and he’s gonna stick to the role he’s been programmed with; it’s a little acknowledgement of just why he might have his suspicions about what’s going on with Hale, and then lets her pass.

And doesn’t it make sense if you are Ford and designing a park and you have a whole master plan about helping robots that you would keep one Host hiding in plain sight as a fail-safe? Maybe the Host who’s in charge of quality assurance? And by the way, that was totally meant to be subtle [laughs].

[paigow]

10 hours ago, capt planet said:

Cancel this, give us a proper ending to Deadwood instead.

Those "brain balls" are Bullock, Trixie, Saul..... 

[benteen]

I should have known this show wasn't going to stick the landing.  It didn't.  I thought it was terrible and doesn't make me want to watch Season 3 very much.

I'm glad Charlotte's dead but it was too quick for her.

I'm glad Bernard shot Dolores but she's back too.

Come on, Bernard, don't judge humanity but awful Charlotte.

Quote

Cancel this, give us a proper ending to Deadwood instead.

Good lord, YES!

Edited June 25, 2018 by benteen

[Rumsy4]

10 hours ago, mac123x said:

Charlores said something like "I have one more soul to save".  Then we see Teddy smiling, standing in the Valley Beyond.  I don't think he's one of the balls she left the park with.

Dolores couldn't bear to let him stay in Westworld to be revived again by humans and turned into their pet once again. But she also knew that their paths had diverged beyond reconciliation. So, she uploaded him into the digital Host-heaven. 

9 hours ago, JustCrazy said:

The only hosts who I think are truly dead are the ones who crossed into the valley beyond. 

Agree. And this connects back to the "virgin" bots Strand's team pulled out of the ocean--the ones that looked like they never had any data. Whoever got uploaded into bot-heaven is truly gone.

9 hours ago, The Companion said:

The hosts were stored on the now exploded cradle. Robot Heaven was created and stored on the Forge, where the humans were kept. We saw only those robots who entered the door end up in Robot Heaven. It did not appear to he populated by the decommissioned hosts before that from anything we saw. Teddy had to be uploaded. The hosts who ended up there apparently were uploaded in their entirety by walking through the door (and we see acknowledgement of that by the computer). There are a few options. 1. Her bot was reactivated and ended up in the group who made it. We didn't see that happen, though. 2. She was somehow restored from his memory. 3. Maeve somehow uploaded her as she lay dying using her administrative access. 

I'm just going to imagine that Ford, after his conversation with Akecheta, uploaded Kohaha into the Forge so she would be ready to reunite with Akecheta if he ever made it through the "door".

[zobot81]

me trying to watch this episode

https://media.giphy.com/media/guSDEekNFb23C/giphy.gif

[qtpye]

Quote

Maybe it’s less a problem with the philosophy than it is with the way it’s presented. The show has such lofty aims, and yet it so rarely earns its ambitions. You have to work for statements like “People don’t have free will but robots do” by presenting the case that you understand both, and I still don’t think the writers behind the series have ever really demonstrated a strong grasp on characterization or human nature. The show’s presented concept of humanity—of selfish stupid people going to a wild west theme park to kill and fuck and hardly anything else—is so narrow and childishly cynical that it makes it nearly impossible to take anything deeper it tries to say seriously. William, the supposed malignant tragedy at the heart of so much of this, is a thinly written character played by a great actor. We’ve had a whole season to get to know him better, and what we got is: he’s a jerk who pretends to be a nice guy. Or something. Which is, more or less, everything we knew about him from last season.

This review is from the AV Club and it expresses some of my frustrations with this season.

[jeansheridan]

47 minutes ago, Dame sans merci said:

Maybe the Host who’s in charge of quality assurance? And by the way, that was totally meant to be subtle [laughs].

Why do I suddenly dislike Lisa Joy? I don't mind that Stubbs is a host necessarily. I guess he was never around Clementine to be corrupted. Or Maeve. 

But when I think of the power of Bernard's reveal last season I find myself not caring. Also, what did Stubbs accomplish this season? Why did he matter? Much like Elsie, he didn't matter.

[revbfc]

Did anyone else find it impossible to feel empathy for any of the characters?  It just seems that all the bots are acting on their programming, and not from any sort of real existential awakening.  The humans?  They’re awful and can’t make the switch to bot because for all of their research, they cannot figure out how to bridge the soul’s “uncanny valley.”  The show’s solution?  Nobody has free will, and it’s a lazy route.  Just because the programmers couldn’t figure out how to artificially create it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.  

[WatchrTina]

5 hours ago, SourK said:

In this episode, specifically, though, I'm most confused about why Akecheta's wife was in robot heaven with him. The one story I do remember from this season is that his wife got decommissioned and locked in the storage room. Are we supposed to believe she came back as a zombie or a crazy person like Clementine and Abernathy and we were just never told about it?

You're asking the right questions.  My fan-wank is that Akecheta's wife has been in the background somewhere ever since the night of the party at the end of season 1 when ALL the decommissions 'bots showed up in the woods.  She hasn't been front-and-center like Clementine and she wasn't cannon fodder like so many of the the zombie-bots and so many of her tribe.  She's just been there in the background and joined the line of refugees when Aketcheta started leading them to the happy hunting grounds.  He didn't see her and she didn't recognize him because, zombie-bot.  But I'm going to fan-wank that when they go through that door and their bodies fall away their minds are healed and that's why she could finally recognize Aketcheta.  I'm also going to fan-wank that Teddy's evil programming fell away too and he's back to his original self . . . but somehow has overcome Dolores being his corner-stone because . . . that would be sad.  Damn.  It's hard to pull a happy ending out of this episode.

[Rumsy4]

On 6/25/2018 at 1:36 AM, DakotaLavender said:

Charlotte was Dolores? Huh? MIB was a host? Huh? Teddy was shot by Dolores and then he commited suicide?

Charlotte was Dolores only after Bernard's first trip to and return from the Forge. He watched Hale execute Elsie in cold blood, and decided to kill her, rebuild her body, and upload Dolores's brain-ball into Hale's host-body.

MiB was only a host in the final post-credits scene set in the far future where the Forge looks abandoned/destroyed.

Dolores never shot Teddy. 

On 6/25/2018 at 2:33 AM, tennisgurl said:

I need Team Maeve to come back for next season, or else, whats even the point? They're by far my favorite part of the show, and it would suck to lose almost all of them. 

The only time I actually teared up during the episode was when Maeva was shot down. But the ending scene with Felix and Syl gave me hope that she'd be back. I'm not sure I would want to watch season 3 if Maeve was not returning.

On 6/25/2018 at 2:42 AM, jeansheridan said:

I'm annoyed that we don't know when Elsie got picked up. I'm annoyed that she served no purpose at all. Zip. She didn't enlighten Bernard. She didn't help Bernard.

She was basically fridged so Bernard would have his epiphany that humans were bad after all, and set off his master plan to kill Hale, replace her with trojan!Dolores, and preserve bot-heaven. 

The central conceit the show is trying to sell that humans have no free will and are simplistic creatures when compared to the bots is disingenuously reductive and misanthropic. At the end of Season 2, the only humans shown to be capable of change and being "good" were Lee and Felix. Sylvester remains to be seen. Elsie sort of betrayed Bernard. Stubbs was actually a bot all the time. The writers made it all needlessly confusing too. Only people who read reddit and message boards will get it. This is not to say I didn't enjoy season 2. I did. But, I really hope Season 3 is much more intellectually honest, cohesive, and coherent. 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Rumsy4

[DarkRaichu]

15 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

You're asking the right questions.  My fan-wank is that Akecheta's wife has been in the background somewhere ever since the night of the party at the end of season 1 when ALL the decommissions 'bots showed up in the woods.  She hasn't been front-and-center like Clementine and she wasn't cannon fodder like so many of the the zombie-bots and so many of her tribe.  She's just been there in the background and joined the line of refugees when Aketcheta started leading them to the happy hunting grounds.  He didn't see her and she didn't recognize him because, zombie-bot.  But I'm going to fan-wank that when they go through that door and their bodies fall away their minds are healed and that's why she could finally recognize Aketcheta.  I'm also going to fan-wank that Teddy's evil programming fell away too and he's back to his original self . . . but somehow has overcome Dolores being his corner-stone because . . . that would be sad.  Damn.  It's hard to pull a happy ending out of this episode.

I am going to agree with someone upthread who fanwanked that Ford uploaded Ake's wife's memory to the Valley after he met with Ake (by the bear bot).  But I think her bot body was used to build the railroad that we saw a few episiodes ago. :D :D :D

Who the heck is building the railroad? They are obviously too late to the party as the Valley is now no longer in the park.  Hmm, this could be plotline for Maeve & co next season.  Maybe the railroad is intended for the bots from other 2 parks we have not visited.  Maybe whoever creates the railroad tries to bring the Valley back to Westworld and MAeve is like "no my daughter is happy there, don't you dare do anything to that VR world" :P

Also, Teddy never got over Dolores as his cornerstone. (At least to me) the last scene of him was sad and alone and looking outside the Valley paining for Dolores to come join him.

Edited June 25, 2018 by DarkRaichu

[Uncle JUICE]

I know I've had this issue every week, but what the fuck kind of hiring practice do they have at Delos, where they are employing a lead technician who gets a boner for bone sawing a robot so hard that he turns her pain receptors all the way up in order to do it? Shouldn't these guys be approaching this with all the passion of the guy who fixes your laundry machines? SCREEN FOR NUT JOBS, Delos. Or maybe working at Delos MAKES you a nut job, but for a place whose main business seems to be an insane level of understanding of human nature, they ought to be protecting their IP from nutter employees. Why are they not monitoring for this behavior and nipping it in the bud with an employee assistance program or counseling sessions on the regular? You know, stuff like "Listen, it seems like you're getting ready to fuck a host when they're deactivated. Please know we have installed monitors for this, and if you do it, you'll be docked X dollars for use of the service and you'll not be paid to clean the host you've used." Or "Your cliometrics, which you've authorized us to monitor as a term of employment, indicate that you're developing strange emotional feedback with host bodies, and we feel like we need to talk about it with our professional service. You will remain employed at your current salary but assigned to other less gruesome duties for six months, like environmental upkeep in the park," etc. WHAT IS THIS PLACE. 

[themadman]

There is zero chance I will watch Season 3 of this hot, convoluted mess. 

[DarkRaichu]

20 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

The writers made it all needlessly confusing too. Only people who read reddit and message boards will get it. This is not to say I didn't enjoy season 2. I did. But, I really hope Season 3 is much more intellectually honest, cohesive, and coherent. 

Yes 100%.  Even the people who get the timelines somewhat straight are sometimes fooled by things put in the show by the writers to unnecessarily misdirect viewers.  For example, how did Teddy's body get to the lake when he shot himself so far from the Forge, even farther than where Emily's body was?  

Also, I am ok with mindgames as long as there is good payoff at the end of the season.  The payoff from 1st season was good, but this season I felt like the revelations were not worth the extra brain power I poured to this series.

Edited June 25, 2018 by DarkRaichu

[DrSpaceman]

Add me to the group who found this whole season way too confusing with the timelines, too many things happening. 

I understand everything that happened in the end, except I don't know now with that final scene of ALL OF THIS WE"VE BEEN WATCHING FOR TWO SEASONS is just some world created for the MiB, one of thousands of iterations created all for him. 

I don't know who is and isn't a robot and I don't know what use that detector they are using is if it seems they still can't tell the humans from the hosts. 

[ahpny]

Quote

The cinematography in this show continues to be stunning.

It is beautiful to look at, and almost distracting given the effort needed to focus elsewhere to try and figure out what is really going on. My feeble non-bot brain can only process so much – no IPad thingy to up my apperception to 100%.

I also found a few nits distracting and chewing up valuable bandwidth. How exactly does a mechanical bull “run” with no or few hind muscles? While some of the bot-bulls appeared complete, others were shown with significant portions of their rear “body” absent over a skeleton. What exactly moves the skeleton without muscles, motors, or force-producing devices? This is an abuse of high school physics, like Superman “lifting” a plane with the palm of one hand. The same stories can be told without such abuses.

Also, why does Clementine's host control continue just fine after she’s shot and presumed “killed,” but Maeve’s host control cuts out completely after she’s shot and “killed?” If their respective “powers” to control other hosts are just the result of a quick transfer of data packet(s), whose code would continue to control hosts after received, why is Maeve’s control transient?  Why am I worried about this minor stuff when the big picture is still irredeemably murky?

Edited June 27, 2018 by ahpny

[driver18]

When I binge-watched the first season over one weekend in anticipation of season 02 it was richer and so much better than watching it week to week. Everything fit together so perfectly and made sense. I anticipate the same will be the case for this season. I look forward to rewatching this one and watching how everything connects. I believe things will flow and make a lot more sense.

[DarkRaichu]

21 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I know I've had this issue every week, but what the fuck kind of hiring practice do they have at Delos, where they are employing a lead technician who gets a boner for bone sawing a robot so hard that he turns her pain receptors all the way up in order to do it? Shouldn't these guys be approaching this with all the passion of the guy who fixes your laundry machines? SCREEN FOR NUT JOBS, Delos. Or maybe working at Delos MAKES you a nut job, but for a place whose main business seems to be an insane level of understanding of human nature, they ought to be protecting their IP from nutter employees. Why are they not monitoring for this behavior and nipping it in the bud with an employee assistance program or counseling sessions on the regular? You know, stuff like "Listen, it seems like you're getting ready to fuck a host when they're deactivated. Please know we have installed monitors for this, and if you do it, you'll be docked X dollars for use of the service and you'll not be paid to clean the host you've used." Or "Your cliometrics, which you've authorized us to monitor as a term of employment, indicate that you're developing strange emotional feedback with host bodies, and we feel like we need to talk about it with our professional service. You will remain employed at your current salary but assigned to other less gruesome duties for six months, like environmental upkeep in the park," etc. WHAT IS THIS PLACE. 

That part seems to be the most realistic to me.  In any big corporation, it is impossible to screen properly.  Some people get in because they know someone inside the company, other times the people are good enough to fool the screening process.

Even when there are survelience systems, not every misconduct is dealt properly.  Sometimes it is not worth the effort, maybe the misconduct is small compared to what the person brings to the company.  Other times those footage can be used to blackmail the person to stay and/or to accept lower pay / assignments.

[Uncle JUICE]

2 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

That part seems to be the most realistic to me.  In any big corporation, it is impossible to screen properly.  Some people get in because they know someone inside the company, other times the people are good enough to fool the screening process.

Even when there are survelience systems, not every misconduct is dealt properly.  Sometimes it is not worth the effort, maybe the misconduct is small compared to what the person brings to the company.  Other times those footage can be used to blackmail the person to stay and/or to accept lower pay / assignments.

it shouldn't be impossible to screen properly if your entire business model is mapping the human brain and behavior to make near-exact replicas of humans and their behavior, like a thousand years in the future or whenever this is supposed to be, though. You're talking about today, not in the distant AI future. And it's not even a problem they need to have from a story perspective. it does nothing to the narrative to have that tech be a sadist about his job, except make all people evil deep down.

[luna1122]

12 hours ago, Paws said:

Logan yes and Hector too! So good looking.

Jimmi Simpson was easily the worst looking man on the show and I have No idea why anyone thought he resembled a young  Ed Harris.

 

parts of the finale were enjoyable but the timeline mishmash made this whole season and finale nearly impossible to understand.

I think Jimmi is  ridiculously adorable (and certainly better looking that Ed Harris ever actually was) and I miss him terribly. He became the reason I watched, and was one of the major reasons season 2 fell flat for me. 

I have basically no real idea what happened. I mean, I get the bare bones, but even that's honestly more than I care about. Yeah, every time Bernard was all 'WTF is going on?', I literally said aloud 'Nobody knows, Bernard'.

[DarkRaichu]

17 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

it shouldn't be impossible to screen properly if your entire business model is mapping the human brain and behavior to make near-exact replicas of humans and their behavior, like a thousand years in the future or whenever this is supposed to be, though. You're talking about today, not in the distant AI future. And it's not even a problem they need to have from a story perspective. it does nothing to the narrative to have that tech be a sadist about his job, except make all people evil deep down.

It is always a trade-off.  Delos may know someone who is as skilled as Elsie would haev some kind of attractions to the bots, but they would tolerate a little "sampling" of the product as long as she can get her job done on time.  If you screen out everyone with any tendency to stray, you potentially screen out highly skilled people for the jobs.

However, I'd like to fanwank in this future the sadists are able to convince the government(s) that they are protected class citizens.  Meaning Delos cannot fire them at will :D :D :D 

Edited June 25, 2018 by DarkRaichu

[Amarsir]

As I recall, in the beginning of the season Ford's message to MIB was "This game is for you. You have to travel back to the start." I took that to mean William who had once loved Dolores and now viewed hosts as expendable tools would come to see them as people again. Not the most unique of journeys, but it would tie the stories together and give him some closure. Then he met Dolores in the finale and I was all ready for that. 

So where was it?? If not my interpretation then what did "back to the beginning" mean?

Instead we get more repetition that he's a bastard for no reason and yet no one actually kills him. He didn't help Dolores nor she him. They had no reason to intersect other than "it's the finale so I guess they do."

Edited June 25, 2018 by Amarsir

[ShadowHunter]

13 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

I think Jimmi is  ridiculously adorable (and certainly better looking that Ed Harris ever actually was) and I miss him terribly. He became the reason I watched, and was one of the major reasons season 2 fell flat for me. 

I have basically no real idea what happened. I mean, I get the bare bones, but even that's honestly more than I care about. Yeah, every time Bernard was all 'WTF is going on?', I literally said aloud 'Nobody knows, Bernard'.

Yes, I liked Jimmi as well.

I think Bernard summed it up for everyone "Its a fucking nightmare" ha.

[paigow]

Is this like Jurassic Park? Multiple secret 3D Printing sites all over the world? Where is Charbot going to build new hosts for her "bag-o-balls"? 

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I know I've had this issue every week, but what the fuck kind of hiring practice do they have at Delos, 

Worst.Guards.Ever

[Kip Hackman]

This line from the EW recap made me chuckle:

Quote

Westworld is weird because it keeps telling us how horrible and simple-minded we are as a species yet also expects us to follow the most complex narrative to ever air on TV.

[zobot81]

If nothing else, this season of Westworld continues to affirm that all aspect of the film-making process -- from directing, to acting, to writing, to wardrobe/makeup, to sound/music, to editing (and the list goes on, down to the Kraft services) -- are more or less critical to the success or a failure of a show. I used to take for granted that certain shows were at least consistent, and to some degree, mildly predictable.  Plenty of shows have gone on for 24 episodes in a season, and never completely fallen off course.   When it comes to Lost (ya, I went there), sure -- they sometimes struggled to deliver a lofty message amidst abounding reddit-worthy mysteries.  But Lost never became some show I didn't recognize.  Nor did I ever seriously consider giving up on it. 

Conversely, the show-runners have bummed me out a lot with season two of Westworld.  I haven't lost all of my trust in them, not yet, but I refuse to be burned by another show that no one seems to have a real handle on.  I'm not interested in the chaos that was created by multiple time-jumps.  I care about coming away enlightened, more curious, and most importantly of all, entertained. I'm starting to wonder how this keeps happening, now, in the golden age of TV:  Incredibly high budget + great talent + network with the highest possible standards + rabid fan-base = going completely pear-shaped? Doesn't add up.

[shockermolar]

13 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

On rewatch I noticed that Delores did take Teddy's brain ball thingy, I think she put Teddy's consciousness into Charlotte 2.0.

No - she took it, but she clearly placed his consciousness in the Valley Beyond - they show CharlotteDolores put the ball into the system as she talks about being capable of change, and then Teddy in the Valley.  It was pretty definitive.

Quote

Jimmi Simpson was easily the worst looking man on the show and I have No idea why anyone thought he resembled a young  Ed Harris.

Because he really DOES looks like a young Ed Harris.  

[shockermolar]

12 hours ago, JustCrazy said:

Clementine as the apocalypse, or virus, was so cool.

The horse was a VERY nice touch.

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. - Revelations 6:8

[LoveLeigh]

The finale seems to be getting pretty good reviews from the TV critics. I said in a few posts above that for me the finale was the wilted cherry dumped on top of the miserable season. But there is one outstanding element that remains with me and it was said to me years ago during the airing of LOST. My friend said to me: "not even the writers have any idea how all of this comes together and even they have no answers as they write each episode. The answers are not in the minds of the writers as they write each episode." 

I think the problem for me with WESTWORLD is that the writers became more excited about creating surprises and shockers and twists than they did with connecting the dots. They built in layered mixed up crap that served to weigh the show down. This episode was really preposterous: Charlotte becomes Dolores and who is the MIB now? And I definitely recall that in one episode Dolores shoots Teddy. But somebody above said that never happened. So the season was so convoluted that I created false memories of events? 

What happened to how the show started: guests going to a park to have themed experiences with hosts? I was criticized above for saying I expected that because it is a version of FANTASY ISLAND, but this season deteriorated into total bullsh*t. When you invest so much time in weeks of watching a series, I think there should be some satisfaction that most of the puzzles are solved in a coherent way. I get angry when I am played for a fool, it just feels so manipulative to me to be lured to watch week after week with cliffhangers and to have a finale that really did resemble the sets of LOST. 

The show lost it's way. 

Edited June 25, 2018 by DakotaLavender

[Law Mom]

I interpreted Stubbs' hostspeak as his letting Charlores know that he knew she was a bot. But I just saw the Lisa Joy comments. So, who knows.

It’s clear (as clear as anything can be in this show) that the Cats (I love this nickname) will bring back Maeve. I suspect that now that she saved her daughter, she is free to form her own core drive, which will be a main theme for the season. I don’t think she shares Dolores’s “kill ‘em all” philosophy; I suspect her wish is to live amongst humans as an equal. I also believe that Sizemore’s sacrifice will have a major effect on her belief that not all humans are bad, such that she and Dolores will go head to head at some point.

I kinda love that the last thing Charlotte saw was her doppelganger pointing a gun at her.

So who is in the ball sack? Hmm, Bernard for sure. Ford? Clem? The blond chick with the arrows? Some random new characters?

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

It’s clear (as clear as anything can be in this show) that the Cats (I love this nickname) will bring back Maeve. I suspect that now that she saved her daughter, she is free to form her own core drive, which will be a main theme for the season. I don’t think she shares Dolores’s “kill ‘em all” philosophy; I suspect her wish is to live amongst humans as an equal. I also believe that Sizemore’s sacrifice will have a major effect on her belief that not all humans are bad, such that she and Dolores will go head to head at some point.

Yep, I agree. I think there will be at least two host factions in the real world. One will be Delores' killbots and the other will align with Bernard. I see Maeve either go in with Bernard or go it alone to stop Delores. I think she will want to assimilate with humans but Delores' terrorism will make that more difficult.

Quote

The horse was a VERY nice touch.

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. - Revelations 6:8

So happy I wasn't the only one who caught that reference. I was afraid I might've been reading too much into it. This show.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Joimiaroxeu

[Law Mom]

DakotaLavender, your reaction is probably just how the park guests would feel. They think they are going to Fantasy Island for a week of, as Dolores called it, "Cowboys and Indians." But the whole point of the show is that the fantasy is a cover for something more sinister. Have you ever seen the Hall of Presidents at Disneyland? It's fucking boring. No one wants to watch that every week. Now if the presibots were secretly planning a coup, that would be interesting. Or take Harry Potter. Seven books of kids going to potions class, playing quidditch, and drinking butter beer? No thank you. Give me some Voldemort and muggle-ism so I have something to think about.

[Uncle JUICE]

20 minutes ago, shockermolar said:

The horse was a VERY nice touch.

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. - Revelations 6:8

For one hot second I was like "Cool! Clementine, Horse, I like this action here." Then Charlotte stepped in with that absolute turd of a line "Who needs four horseman when one will do.' Good grief! I wish someone around her was like "Seriously? Have you been cooking that one up since we got in the car on the way over here? Or did you JUST come up with it? I bet it sounded way cooler in your mind before you said it."

[roguetamlin]

I don't place too much importance on understanding what's going on given the people behind the show, so that's not my complaint about this episode. I feel like we spent way too much time saying "Get on with it!!" In general I liked the season but these last two episodes have been a slog.

Felix and Sylvester will bring Maeve and co back, so that's fine. But they killed Elsie stupidly. 

I'll watch the next season, but I'm not as excited as I was.

[Uncle JUICE]

17 minutes ago, Law Mom said:

 

So who is in the ball sack? Hmm, Bernard for sure. Ford? Clem? The blond chick with the arrows? Some random new characters?

First of all, glad I'm not the only adult who's calling it the ball sack. Second of all, I think it'd be amazing if season 3 stars and she's uploaded three of the five balls and on the fourth one, she uploads it and finds out she accidentally grabbed that drunk guy Logan shoots in the season 1 premiere who was trying to sell an adventure to William, and she's like "ARE you serious!?! I thought you were supposed to be my friend who suicide bombed the Cradle, GOD DAMN IT!" 

[Law Mom]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

For one hot second I was like "Cool! Clementine, Horse, I like this action here." Then Charlotte stepped in with that absolute turd of a line "Who needs four horseman when one will do.' Good grief! I wish someone around her was like "Seriously? Have you been cooking that one up since we got in the car on the way over here? Or did you JUST come up with it? I bet it sounded way cooler in your mind before you said it."

She had another stupid line in the beginning. They are in the buggy caravan following Clem on horseback and she randomly says to the driver, "Step on it. Either we destroy them or they destroy us." Um, he's following a horse. And thanks for spelling out the mission.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Law Mom
typo

[magdalene]

Unfortunately for me they sent everybody to robot heaven like Ake, Teddy, I had an emotional connection with.  And going by what Nolan and Joy say those actors and characters are finished and gone.  I never cared about MIB and I stopped caring about Dolores during season 2.  I don't know if the possible return of Maeve and co. is enough to make me watch further.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

Then Charlotte stepped in with that absolute turd of a line "Who needs four horseman when one will do.' Good grief! I wish someone around her was like "Seriously? Have you been cooking that one up since we got in the car on the way over here? Or did you JUST come up with it? I bet it sounded way cooler in your mind before you said it."

It's funny, that line went right by me. Charlotte annoyed me so much I was only listening to her maybe half the time. But yeah, that would fall under the "obvious things that don't need to be said" category. The writers didn't need to try so hard.

[Uncle JUICE]

36 minutes ago, Law Mom said:

She had another stupid line in the beginning. They are in the buggy caravan following Clem on horseback and she randomly says to the driver, "Step in it. Either we destroy them or they destroy us." Um, he's following a horse. And thanks for spelling out the mission.

Another line where I feel like the driver would have said "No doy," and "maybe we could have taught her to drive one of these buggies and not a horse, I mean I know it doesn't look as cool or whatever, but these cars are literally five times faster than the robohorse. In fact, why didn't you just program a robo horse to do this? Or maybe we could have gotten closer using the massive tunnel network. I mean what do you want me to do, run the fucking horse over? YOU DRIVE then. In fact, know what? Pull over, and I'll just get in a buggy where no one is talking and trying to impress me with their english degree for god's sake. Don't worry, you'll catch up with this slow ass horse you didn't program to go 70MPH like this car, Cool plan, boss!"

Edited June 25, 2018 by Uncle JUICE

[Athena]

I liked it. The show has plot holes, but I'm still looking forward to the ride of S3 which probably won't happen until late 2019 or 2020.

Dolores is Magneto. Bernard is Professor X. Maeve will probably be the Jean Grey with the Phoenix abilities but stable. 

James Marsden was playing Cyclops again as Teddy too.

[arjumand]

34 minutes ago, magdalene said:

Unfortunately for me they sent everybody to robot heaven like Ake, Teddy, I had an emotional connection with.  And going by what Nolan and Joy say those actors and characters are finished and gone. 

Dammit, really? Fuck it. I try to avoid watching BTS things cos I find they ruin the illusion for me, except tellingly enough, the Ghost Nation one, which was as awesome as the episode itself. This is shit. I loved Akecheta, and the whole of the Ghost Nation, especially the guy who I've been calling my tv boyfriend, Wanahton (see below).

   He's played by the super hot Martin Sensmeier, who was also in the remake of the Magnificent Seven. I loved that he got what he wanted, along with Akecheta (look, Ake was the bomb, ok? But he was too tragic and magnificent to be lusted over, at least for me), but dammit, my man! You essentially entered the Matrix, and I'm not even sure if Dolores deleted it or not.

And now I learn that deleted or not, all those characters are done, and we're left with Annoying Murderous Barbie, Annoying Corporate lady, and Cut-rate Hemsworth? Ok, fine, Bernard is still there, but I can't go through another season of "Is this now?", combined with, I guess, 5 timelines this time.

I was on the point of giving up the show when "Kiksuya" pulled me back in, and I enjoyed the season finale (in between bouts of I'M SO CONFUSED! WHAT IS HAPPENING?), but they're not giving me much incentive to come back for season three.

 

Edited June 25, 2018 by arjumand

[Broderbits]

Am I the only one who thinks the show runners simply turned one Crichton story - Westworld - into another - Jurassic Park? Or rather the movie Jurassic World, where nefarious humans create the hosts/dinosaurs, tinker with their genetics, use them for entertainment, and ultimately set them against each other when they prove a little too spirited. And now, just like the latest movie, they're free to roam in the "real" world.

[Kip Hackman]

3 minutes ago, Broderbits said:

Am I the only one who thinks the show runners simply turned one Crichton story - Westworld - into another - Jurassic Park?

To be fair, both of the stories were already pretty similar.

[Head-Full-Of-Thi]

Ignoring everything else that happened this episode (man there was a lot of wtf moments)

I WAS RIGHT! MY THEORY WAS RIGHT!!! STUBBS IS A HOST! I feel like I actually contributed to the fandom lol

Also what a clever way to do it "I've been working for Ford as long as I remember" nice callout to season 1

[Macbeth]

10 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

 I still don't get why Dolores bothered to recreate Bernard. She wants someone to check her? Why? Dolores is not a collaborative sort.

I think part of her core programming is that she is always paired with a male partner.  She just lost Teddy and Bernard/Arnold she had years of experience with.

Her mistake with Bernard is she thought he would be in the subordinate position as she worked on his programming.   It appears Ford added code to Bernard that would allow him to kill Dolores if Bernard thought she needed to be killed. 

[Uncle JUICE]

20 minutes ago, arjumand said:

 

 

I hope there's a Ghost Nation member who one time, before a really tense battle or mission, was like "Hey Wanhoton, I know you gotta get all war painting, my hands are already red. Let me help you out, I know how you always go with those badass bloody handprints on your chest." And Wanhoton, slightly weirded out but seeing the efficiency of this suggestion says "Ehhh...okay I guess." And then the jackass friend goes in and pretends like he's going to do it right but at the last second turns both hands 90 degrees so it looks like a giant red bra, and Wanhoton is like "DA FUCK DUDE!!" and then they all laugh. "How did you let him get you like that, Wanhoton? You know he drew a dick on his horse's back legs!" 

And then go scalp some fellow hosts right after. 

Edited June 25, 2018 by Uncle JUICE