Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[SueB]

Well I'm bitter that the writing lived up to everyone's worst comments.

[AwesomO4000]

-- Sam didn't look for Dean because they wanted to make Sam look like a jerk while Dean looks awesome in comparison.

 

I wanted to think this also, Demented Daisy, but I couldn't think of any other reason why they would have Sam do what he did, and Mr. Carver never gave any credible explanation (that didn't make Sam look awful) either in story or in interviews (from what I've heard) as for why Sam didn't look for Dean and abandoned Kevin. And then they keep bringing it up. Besides I would rather they purposely make Sam look bad so Dean looks better - at least that's a goal - than just make Sam look bad for the heck of it. That's actually worse in my opinion.

 

-- Dean made an angel possess Sam because they wanted Dean to look like a jerk while Sam looks awesome in comparison.

 

I agree with you on this one. Dean's motivations were made obvious and his point of view explained on why he did what he did very well. They also had Dean express great remorse for Kevin. I wish Sam had been given that luxury in season 8 and then I wouldn't have these kinds of complaints.

[companionenvy]

Coming out of lurkdom to vent after tonight's episode...

 

I so wish I could quit this show, but I have this compulsion to see it through.

 

Look, I get that a show like this is going to have to have deaths. But at this point, we're at torture porn level. Nearly EVERY recurring character who isn't one of our three leads is dead. Ash. Ellen. Jo. Pamela. Rufus. Frank. Hendrickson. Bobby. Kevin. Charlie. And that isn't even counting the less dickish angels like Balthazar, Anna and Samandriel, or quasi-sympathetic/penitent antagonists like Meg, Gadreel and Bela.

 

Honestly, with the exception of Fan Fiction, I can't remember the last time SPN made me feel joy. Worse, I'm not sure why I should even be rooting for Sam, Dean and Cas anymore, aside from pity and residual affection.

 

These idiots haven't grown or changed one iota in years. Dean is still self-loathing. Sam is still a self-righteous hypocrite. Both of them continue to lie to each other despite reams of evidence for what a bad idea that is, leading to the annual Winchester rift. Cas, despite the occasional moment of awesome, remains a perpetual screw-up without the backbone to stand up to Sam or Dean -- or, apparently, to successfully protect just about anyone (Charlie's death isn't really his fault, but she is still one of a long line of people he has failed to save or been forced to kill).

 

This show's narrative arc ended at the end of Season 5. I can understand continuing it, even at risk of staleness. But if you're going to let your show get stale, can you at least not make it an utter misery? Can the Winchesters ever get a win? Can a season ever end without utter angst and horror? Unending tragedy and failure is no more compelling than improbable victories and rescues -- and at least the latter might be entertaining.

 

Whew, I feel better!

[supposebly]

I almost quit after season 8. Maybe I'll manage this time since we seem to return to season 4 themes, which was hard to take the first time with better writing.

[Demented Daisy]

I wanted to think this also, Demented Daisy, but I couldn't think of any other reason why they would have Sam do what he did, and Mr. Carver never gave any credible explanation (that didn't make Sam look awful) either in story or in interviews (from what I've heard) as for why Sam didn't look for Dean and abandoned Kevin. And then they keep bringing it up. Besides I would rather they purposely make Sam look bad so Dean looks better - at least that's a goal - than just make Sam look bad for the heck of it. That's actually worse in my opinion.

 

Honestly?  I think Carver doesn't care.  I think he doesn't care what the fans think of Sam and Dean.  I think he expects the fans to love Sam and Dean unconditionally and never question their actions.  Otherwise, he would have known that people would be upset over Sam acting so out of character.

 

The other option for me is that he didn't do his homework.  The last thing he remembered about Sam was that he wanted out of the life, so they did that.  Maybe they got a general outline of events, but not characterization.

 

Both options are terrible for me -- but I haven't seen much evidence that Carver has much passion for the show.  Not enough passion, anyway, to make sure that what they're doing makes sense, IMO.

 

Okay, I'm straying close to the TPTB thread, so I'll stop now.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Demented Daisy

[amensisterfriend]

Honestly, with the exception of Fan Fiction, I can't remember the last time SPN made me feel joy.

 

Seriously! Are these writers contractually obligated to drain the series of joy and hope and actual fun? Do they get docked pay if Dean and Sam genuinely like each other, get along, and avoid lying to each other for more than half an episode at a time? Do they somehow equate relentless, insanely repetitive dysfunction and angst overdoses with "quality" TV? 

 

Worse, I'm not sure why I should even be rooting for Sam, Dean and Cas anymore, aside from pity and residual affection.

 

I think that residual affection, OMG-poooooor-boys sympathy, misguided loyalty and the fact that the boys are still "hot" is what the writers are banking on---and have been banking on for the majority of the series, in fact :) 

These idiots haven't grown or changed one iota in years. Dean is still self-loathing. Sam is still a self-righteous hypocrite. Both of them continue to lie to each other despite reams of evidence for what a bad idea that is, leading to the annual Winchester rift.

 

It's beyond exhausting. 

 

This show has become a textbook example of why most series shouldn't extend past a certain number of seasons. I'm not sure what that number is, but it's a lot lower than 10. 

[companionenvy]

I'm actually going to go out on a limb and say that I bought Sam not looking for Dean in Purgatory. Unlike when Dean was in Hell, Sam didn't really have any idea where Dean was or what might have happened to him. He also had essentially no allies - Bobby was dead, along with many of their other hunter contacts; Cas had disappeared with Dean. Sam had also just come out of a really traumatic period, even by Winchester standards. I can see him just not having the emotional energy to start another, probably hopeless quest to save Dean. Granted, abandoning Kevin was pretty inexcusable, but again, I look at Sam as someone acting out of deep depression.

 

What I did have a problem with was Sam's attitude towards Benny, which really was inconsistent with his character - Sam has always been open to the idea that monsters might have the capacity for good, and had gotten (rightly) angry at Dean over the killing of Amy just a season earlier. While I can see him being jealous of Dean's closeness to Benny - someone who had been there for Dean in Purgatory when Sam conspicuously hadn't been -- I can't accept that he would be so emotionally blind that he would allow these feelings to completely override reason and ethics alike.

[supposebly]

Hello, my name is supposebly and I am a Supernatural addict. I don't feel like a fan anymore because I feel like I watch because it's been a part of my life for 8 years. For the sake of my sanity and to keep my respect for everyone involved, someone please end this show.

 

I don't ever do spoilers, I don't ever check who writes a particular episode to keep my expectations level and to stay uninfluenced by previous writings. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. No more.

 

As of now, I will have to start checking who writes the next episode, so I can avoid it. My blood pressure will thank me. The laziness, the retconning, the repetitiveness, and the character assassination to serve the terrible, terrible plotting has finally brought me to this. And killed most of the enjoyment I have in watching the Winchesters hunt evil. It's not about saving people anymore, it's about saving the Winchesters at the expense of any character that has more than a few lines.

 

Overly dramatic? Perhaps. I watched this show for 8 years now. It's been a huge part of my life and helped me in no small part to get through grad school somewhat sane. So, yes, I am overly dramatic. I breaks my heart to watch what they are doing to it by not ending it. If they care about the fans, they should care about their product. And apparently, barely good enough is all we get these days.

 

And now, I will continue my watch of the final season of Justified. There is a show that (mostly) knows how to keep quality high and go out with a bang instead of a...I don't even know what this is anymore. I don't expect a bang if this misery ever ends.

[SueB]

Justified is excellent!

[FlickChick]

Supposebly, I certainly agree with your sentiment. I've been addicted since the Pilot, so ten years. How I've hated watching the downfall in the last several seasons, but somehow, I can't stop at this point until I see how it all ends. I really thought it would be this season. Much of the writing, plotting, and characterization has been more than sub-par and I believe that it won't improve because our Showrunner doesn't really give a damn about all the things you mentioned. I can't understand how he keeps his job. So I guess I'll keep hanging in there for now, because I can't believe Show will continue past next season. If it does continue in this manner, then maybe I'll just catch the series finale. :(

[Bruinsfan]

ETA: And perhaps most shamefully of all...I kind of adore Garth :) 

I was with you 100% right up until this point, amensisterfriend, but you are now dead to me!

 

The whole Conor - Cordelia - Jasmine arc left a really bad taste.   I was disliking Cordy by the end, too. 

I was a fan of that arc (even though it was held together with spit and bailing wire, as Tim Minear admitted) because it torpedoed the most abhorrent ship in television history more decisively than the Lusitania. No amount of ass-pull plot twists and squicky possessed babysitter/child relationships could have been worse than the eye-searing horror of a fully realized Angel/Cordy romance.

[ulkis]

I've been surfing this fandom for a long time.  I haven't dived too deeply -- no tumblr, no fanfic -- but I have watched the Sam Girl versus Dean Girl flame wars unfold across various internet fora from TWoP to supernatural.tv to Winchester Family Business to TVClub to Mark Watches and on and on.  Here's what I finally decided about it all.  There has been bad behavior on both sides of the Sam-v-Dean divide, to be sure.  People will relate more to one brother than to the other based on their own experiences and values.  

 

I think people relate more to one brother than the other mostly based on who they find hotter. I'm cynical that way :) I do it too, so I'm also shallow that way, heh.

Edited May 11, 2015 by ulkis

[Hana Chan]

Sam has spend every minute since season four being judged very harshly for his mistakes. Especially by Dean. So now the shoe is on the other foot and Dean is the one who’s gone past the moral event horizon (and doesn’t at least have the minor consolation of being manipulated by heaven and hell to get him to do so). Dean has killed a true innocent (not a demon-possessed nurse who might very well have already been past the point of saving). Sam, out of everyone in the universe, will understand what that will do to Dean’s image of himself when all this is over.

 

If anything good comes of all this, is that this will equalize things between the brothers again. Dean can no longer hold the moral high ground over Sam since his mistakes were just as egregious (if not more so).

 

Please show… give me my brothers back. I’ve been waiting so long…

[mertensia]

Eh. Cyrus is 15? 16? An adult in Supernatural's world. Look at the characters who lit out on their own at his age. Charlie. Claire. Sam apparently tried to. Cyrus could have slipped away too. Not whined to his friends while playing Call of Duty or whatever that was and living with his murderous family.

[SueB]

Edited: Doh....taking to Prisoner thread.... short version ... he may have been in college. Not sure.

Edited May 16, 2015 by SueB

[DittyDotDot]

I'm pretty sure that was supposed to be a private "elite" high school which can appear to be more college-like on TV sometimes. I would also imagine the Stynes probably donated generously to get their name put on that hall to show us more on how they were the big movers and shakers in the town and have their hands in everything. I'm thinking the kid was supposed to be 15 or 16, based on his backpack and the kids who were bullying him didn't particularly say "college" to me. 

 

Regardless, I think it's important to point out that Dean didn't know anything about the kid and didn't really care. We, the audience can debate whether the kid was really culpable or not, but Dean's motivations were not born out of these considerations. He bore the name Styne, therefore he was going to die was the only thing Dean was thinking, IMO.

 

ETA: My high school had multiple buildings and one was named after a beloved teacher who passed away and it was only a little itty bitty public school in the middle of nowhere. The high school where I now live is one jumbled maze of a building, but has many rooms and a wing named for different folks who were important to the school over the years.

Edited May 16, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the  "the Prisoner" episode thread in reference to the first episode of season 8:

You would have one dude who was obviously missing/presumed dead so the "not looking at all" scenario could be feasible if you leaned more heavily on the latter but if someone was just missing, I`d expect another person to be looking for them. That is not even unhealthy but perfectly normal if you cared. And not even bothering to look AT ALL for someone? Would IMO always come across as WTF.

 

[snip].. and Kevin`s "eat me" voice-mails put it over the top.

 

But I think Carver just didn`t see much of a problem with it and honestly didn`t anticipate any hate thrown the characters way. This last episode with Dean shooting the kid, it was definitely supposed to show Dean succumbing to the Mark. Here, I believe the writers were aware the character might be hated afterwards but didn`t give much of a crap. They did have him stop himself from killing Cas so they stopped just shy of the pitchforks.

 

 

I don't know. I thought the Kevin "Eat me" voice mails were a pretty good indication that Carver knew he was having Sam do something completely crappy. How could it not be? What's funny or forgivable about leaving someone at the mercy of a demon you know is likely to use torture and not even bothering to look for him. They even had Dean point out how crappy it was just in case we might happen to miss it - which no, Mr. Carver "Eat me" is pretty hard to miss as an insult. And never mind that Crowley now had a potentially powerful demon tablet as well. WTF? That Carver could not conceive that this behavior of Sam's - never mind adding on the not looking for Dean in a show about a supposed brotherly bond - would not look crappy or anticipate hate just seems incomprehensible to me. I pretty much hated Sam, and he was my favorite character. What did Carver think was going to happen with fans who preferred Dean?

 

Carver previously wrote two episodes where a major plot point was Sam not giving up on Dean. Unless he suddenly thought the whole theme of the show changed and/or the audience suddenly decided they weren't interested in watching the relationship they'd been watching the show for for seven years, Carver not anticipating makes no sense to me. It seems more like he didn't care, and his refusal to try and fix it - which would have been really easy - but to stubbornly stick with his "plan" despite the damage it was doing to the character makes me think even more that if it wasn't deliberate, then at the very best, he didn't care if Sam's character was sacrificed as long as his "plan" and story went the way he wanted. There wasn't even any effort to explain Sam's motivation here. Instead we got flashbacks of Carver's fantasy love triangle soap opera. Insulting to Sam and us, in my opinion.

 

On the other hand I think very much that the writers care about what the audience would think with Dean's killing of the younger Styne. I agree that it's supposed to show Dean's succumbing to the mark, but the narrative went to great lengths to show that Dean had fought the mark for a long time, that he definitely wished there had been a way out even if that meant sacrificing himself, and generally did a great job of explaining Dean's point of view (for example Dean's hallucinations with Benny), so that we would understand and sympathize with what happened to him. For me, not caring is when the writers don't even bother to show anything that explains a character's change in behavior, and that's not what happened with Dean. That's what happened with Sam in season 8. Miles are going to vary on that I realize, though.

[Jediknight]

I'm bitter that after 10 season our main heroes are selfish idiots that still haven't learned a lesson, and constantly break the world.

 

In season 1 they didn't do anything bad to break the world, so that's cool.  It all starts in season 2 with John selling his soul, and giving up the Colt to save Dean.  At the end of the season, Dean sells his soul to bring Sam back from the dead.  Another deal with a demon, a staple of the Winchesters.

 

In season 3 The Trickster even tells Sam "This obssession to save Dean?  The way you two keep sacrificing yourselves for each other?  Nothing good comes out of it.  Just blood and pain."

 

It's wrapped up right there for Sam, but he doesn't listen.  In season 4 we get a Sam hell bent on revenge, to the point he hangs out with Ruby drinking demon blood.  Sam's quest for revenge, freed Lucifer, and the world was broken.

 

In season 5 instead of Dean saying yes to Michael, both Winchesters are running around with the philosophy of "Screw destiny."  Yeah, while you're saying that, a whole lot of people are dying, Lucifer's at his weakest and Dean could stop it, but nope, screw destiny and all that.  Jo and Ellen die, because they think the Colt can kill Lucifer, after already being told that only Michael can kill Lucifer.  We also get to see Lucifer murder a whole slew of dieties with no problem, but still Dean can't say yes.  When Dean finally wants to say yes, everyone gets pissed.  Sam says yes to Lucifer, a toy army man saves them, and I vomit.  In that season you had The Trickster even say "Let me guess, you two muttonheads broke the world, and now you want me to sweep up your mess."

 

In season 6 Dean gets a look behind the curtain, and sees what happens when you wreck the natural order of things.  He also mindwipes Lisa and Ben, nice taking away all the information they'd have to fend off a demon attack.  In season 8, Dean doesn't want Sam to finish the trials and close the gates of Hell, because it will kill Sam.  And what happened in season 10?  They of course broke the world again.

 

It's 10 seasons in, and they're still making mistakes they did years ago.  They haven't learned from anything.  They break the world and unleash apocalypse so many times, that they do the job better than the villains.  But hey, it's all cool since they're still together.

[Hana Chan]

I love this show but I'm at the point where I'm ready for it to end. I will deeply miss seeing Sam and Dean every week, but I've got every season thus far on DVD and there is a veritable mountain of fanfiction to keep me satisfied. But the show is tired and we're going in circles now. The boys are never really allowed any kind of real victory that doesn't come with making things worse. Not since season two and Dean killed YED. The boys keep getting put into no win situations and bearing the responsibility for the consequences. It's gotten tiresome.

 

So now because Dean was incapable of killing Sam (even with Sam being willing to die for Dean's sake), they've unleashed this terrible evil on the world (that no one ever heard of until now). Let them fight this even and go out in a big blaze of glory together. Sam and Dean and Jensen and Jared deserve that.

[Zalyn]

I'm bitter that they killed Death for no significant reason; his scenes are always excellent and he's the best authority on How Creation Works we're going to get.  If Dean had explained at some point that he was going to take over as Death, or that this would prevent him from killing anyone, it would make sense.  But there was no reason given to us.  Boo.

[Aeryn13]

 

So now because Dean was incapable of killing Sam (even with Sam being willing to die for Dean's sake), they've unleashed this terrible evil on the world (that no one ever heard of until now).

 

Nothing Dean could have done would have made a difference. He could have killed Sam or Death or both of them or neither and bam, Rowena`s spell would have done the trick. Nothing Sam did made a difference either since the only thing that would was picking up the phone and calling the spell off. Take this entire scene with Death and the brothers out of the episode and just have Rowena do her spell and you still have the same outcome of unleashing this terrible evil.

 

That might make it the most pointless scene in show history.  

[Mulva]

In season 3 The Trickster even tells Sam "This obssession to save Dean? The way you two keep sacrificing yourselves for each other? Nothing good comes out of it. Just blood and pain."

But in S8, when Sam didn't look for Dean or make a deal, he was excoriated for that by Dean and the fandom. Sam can't win.

[Demented Daisy]

The fandom?  Way to generalize there.

 

I cared he didn't look for Kevin.  Can't speak for anyone else, though.

[catrox14]

But in S8, when Sam didn't look for Dean or make a deal, he was excoriated for that by Dean and the fandom. Sam can't win.

 

I've had the impression that the true excoriation was directed at Carver et al for fucking up Sam's characterization

[Mulva]

I seem to remember an awful lot of hate directed at Sam about his not looking for Dean, who was in another dimension where Sam couldn't have gotten him out of even if he didn't think that Dean was dead.

[catrox14]

From things I've read most seemed to realize it was awful characterization that made no sense at all for Sam, even "Dean-girls" couldn't understand it. Of course, Dean was pissed at him because he should be because that was the character. But that doesn't mean every fan that was upset about that character development was only upset at Sam. IMO it was more confusing and stupid than anything.  I think most were more upset about him not looking for Kevin more than Dean.  JMHO.

[7kstar]

I seem to remember an awful lot of hate directed at Sam about his not looking for Dean, who was in another dimension where Sam couldn't have gotten him out of even if he didn't think that Dean was dead.

What I hated was the lack of explanation of not looking for Dean but the leaving Kevin when he did know what happen that was the part that made me hate Sam.  But I hated the writing more than anything.

 

So many little things could have been used to make it work.  A simple trying and but running into nothing but dead-ends and then he hits the dog and all is over.

 

My biggest gripe right now is that the boys are no longer hero's.  That sucks!

[DittyDotDot]

This show used to be fun and silly and heartbreaking and epic and clever and did I say fun...now I think it's just downright boring. I feel dirty saying that, but it's how I feel right now.

[SueB]

Nothing Dean could have done would have made a difference. He could have killed Sam or Death or both of them or neither and bam, Rowena`s spell would have done the trick. Nothing Sam did made a difference either since the only thing that would was picking up the phone and calling the spell off. Take this entire scene with Death and the brothers out of the episode and just have Rowena do her spell and you still have the same outcome of unleashing this terrible evil.

 

That might make it the most pointless scene in show history.  

 

Theoretically, depending on the speed with which Death had worked his mojo, Dean might have been off-planet before the spell took place.  Then again, who knows if that would have been far enough.

 

Going back to discussing in the episode thread because my comments are all of the episode-variety....

[supposebly]

Thinking about retcons and dropped plotlines, as far as I remember, we still don't really know whether not finishing the trials was a good decision or not, right?

[Mick Lady]

* deep breath*  Thank God for amensisterfriend! I love Garth! There, I said it! I like the lighter episodes, and Garth is always reliable for some wonderful comic relief.

 

I'm...I'm not going to be band or anything, am I?

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Brother's Keeper" episode thread: Apparently I'm not done... (the first two paragraphs are repeated from that thread)

 

1) then Carver failed (with me at least) because I thought Sam made a good point   [in reference to the Sam/Cas conversation about the Book of the Damned]

 

I didn't mean to imply that Sam didn't have a point. I mostly meant that generally the way this happens is: Sam has a point, and in a lot of ways it's actually a good point and even makes sense. Almost everyone else has the completely opposite point, and sometimes it's not even as well thought out as Sam's point, but that doesn't matter. They tell it to Sam multiple times, so that we can't miss that every one has warned Sam. Then everything happens the way everyone else but Sam said that it would, and Sam ends up causing an apocalypse. It happened in season 4 and it happened here. And so my point was did Mr. Carver really have to have Castiel pointing out again in this episode that Sam shouldn't do this? We already had Death give his warning, so did we really need the chorus? I got it the first half dozen times everyone said it, so much so that I knew Sam was going to start an apocalypse about 5 episodes ago.

 

I sometimes wonder if I'm just seeing it through a biased lens, but then I think about similar situations with other characters like Dean - and sometimes Castiel, but sometimes he gets a similar to Sam treatment as well - and it just seems stacked against Sam sometimes.

 

For example: when Dean first got the mark without thinking of the consequences, I might be remembering wrong, but I hardly remember anyone on the show bringing it up all that much (I think when Castiel saw it, he remarked on it once) to the point that many of us were wondering if anyone even remembered that Dean even had the mark and that it was a threat. However hardly an episode went by here where one or multiple people didn't mention the Book of the Damned and "oh it's a good thing you got rid of that book" and "make sure you don't use that book. It's not worth it." No one ever said to Dean "Well maybe if you hadn't got the mark without knowing the consequences in the first place, we wouldn't have to considering using the book now." And for me that's where the difference is. It was all about Dean can beat this, and we have to help Dean, but Dean's role in getting the mark to begin with isn't mentioned. Yes, it was a mistake of being naive, but so was perhaps using the book... but the results do not fit the similar "crime" in my opinion. Dean takes the mark without thinking of the consequences and it does some bad, but not all that much, and not before he also kills Abaddon, and hardly anyone mentions his bad decision. On the other hand Sam's bad decision causes a whole shit ton of bad (Charlie dead, potential evil again Crowley, Super powered Rowena, whatever is going to happen to Cas, and The Darkness) and everyone mentions how bad it's going to be ahead of time so that we, the audience, are clearly aware bad is going to happen. And if things go as per the pattern, almost everyone is going to point that out to Sam repeatedly and angrily and he'll have no defense, because it turned out he was wrong - in multiple ways. Again.

 

Even when Dean is brought to task for making a questionable decision - like Gadreel - it's made to look like Dean was unfairly criticized, because he was right in the end anyway, because not only was Dean right that Gadreel was good and Gadreel helped save the world, but in the end Sam would (and later did) do the exact same thing, so Sam was just a hypocrite and an ass for being angry with Dean... oh and by the way, when he [sam] did do it, instead of having a Gadreel moment....** Sam starts the apocalypse. Oh, and to add insult to injury - Dean changes his mind for a moment and decides Sam was right way back at the end of season 8: Dean should've let Sam die like Sam wanted, but guess what! Sam sort of agrees, but it's too late! He'd already changed his mind to Dean's way of thinking and he's going to save Dean, but of course when Sam does it, it starts the apocalypse. There you go, Sam: that'll teach you for having an opinion different from Dean. Even if it was the exact same opinion Dean had two seasons ago, it's now the wrong one! How could you not know that the opinion changed? (Reminds me of the "John was right" thing. It was only right when Dean thought so. As soon as Sam changed his mind and agreed with Dean on that point, now it was an insult and not true anymore. Now that Dean's decided John was wrong and a jerk, John is wrong and a jerk. It drives me crazy.)

 

It's that dichotomy that makes me just sigh and think that Sam must be the red-headed stepchild of this show. I mean even Castiel got to save the world in season 9. Sam's been allowed to do little but be saved, fail, and cause problems since the end of season 5. Harsh - perhaps, but looking back on the show, also sadly true as far as I can tell. And in the last 3 years, Sam's also been turned into either a complete jerk, a lying liar who lies to Dean, or both. That just makes me sad for Sam as a character.

 

** Removing the mark doesn't count, because that's actually more of a Lilith moment. In fact it's so similar it's ridiculous. Sam wants to kill Lilith. Everyone tells him not to. He kills Lilith and starts an apocalypse. Sam wants to remove the mark. Everyone tells Sam not to. Sam makes sure the mark gets removed... and starts an apocalypse. Me: wants to cry in frustration.

[FlickChick]

OK, so here's mine. Since the first season, "everyone knows you can't kill Death" is canon. I cannot and will not believe that Death is in fact, dead. Perhaps the disintegration was an illusion or whatever, but without Death, no one on the planet dies, no one. There is no use for Heaven, Hell, angels or demons. Nothing matters and chaos ensues. Even Carver can't be that stupid, can he? 

[rue721]

If nothing dies, there's going to be a real problem with food. Can people and animals still kill plants at least? What about carnivores, are they just going to swallow live animals and have those animals living inside them? Farmers would especially be unhappy about the no-more-death thing, I'd bet. 

 

Though even if people don't eat, I guess they won't die, either. They'll just be really, really hungry. But at least if everyone gets very thin/starves, then women will stop menstruating and become functionally infertile, and the earth won't have as much of an over-population problem as it would if nobody died but people were still having as many children as usual.

 

I actually don't want any of that to be a storyline, though! Obviously. I'm hoping that Death isn't really dead, that what Dean "killed" was just an illusion of Crowley's that turned to ash, like the illusionary boy that Cain tried to kill (iIrc?).

 

I wonder what will happen to Sam and Dean now that they've been swallowed up but The Darkness. Maybe next season will open up with them in Heaven. Fingers crossed, actually. I'd like that for a season opener, could be fun.

[7kstar]

OK, so here's mine. Since the first season, "everyone knows you can't kill Death" is canon. I cannot and will not believe that Death is in fact, dead. Perhaps the disintegration was an illusion or whatever, but without Death, no one on the planet dies, no one. There is no use for Heaven, Hell, angels or demons. Nothing matters and chaos ensues. Even Carver can't be that stupid, can he? 

That would mean that Carver would even consider this issue.  We had people stuck in the veil for one ep and then poof it's no longer talked about or even dealt with, everything went on as normal.

 

Hence why I not even concerned, care or whatever about this final.  It won't be dealt with.  The first 3 eps will maybe deal with it, then the boys are back to MoW stories, some meta thrown in and then the last 3 will be crunch time and let's do something stupid to say we've done something about this.

 

I'm sure I'll tune in, I haven't been able to stop yet but I am closer to leaving than staying.  So unless they give me something that I like, I won't worry about all  the issues because Carver will never address them, he hasn't yet in the past either.  Hope that makes sense.

 

I hurt myself last night and in a lot of pain so maybe it only makes sense in my headspace.  But maybe that is Carver's problem.  It makes sense to him, just not to us long time viewers.  Short time viewer, or just joined fans aren't tired of the rinse and repeat so they can be excited.

Edited May 23, 2015 by 7kstar

[FlickChick]

You do make sense, 7kstar, more than Carver to be honest. I guess he really has no business being a showrunner, if he can't keep canon straight or keep plot threads consistent and logical. But, like you, I'll hang in there to see how it all ends - which I really hope is next season!!! Hope you are better soon. :(

Edited May 23, 2015 by FlickChick

[GirlyGeek]

Season 8 pissed me off so badly that none of this current crazy storyline makes me that mad. It pales in comparison to how mad I was about the S8 stupidity, so I can just go with it and find the good and hand wave the rest.

Sad, but true.

But I was watching Mystery Spot the other day and it made me sad. Where are those brothers, who could laugh and poke fun and still get the job done?!

Oh and I watched On the Head of a Pin and thought: Angels used to be so cool and fierce and scary. Ugh

[ahrtee]

 

I didn't mean to imply that Sam didn't have a point. I mostly meant that generally the way this happens is: Sam has a point, and in a lot of ways it's actually a good point and even makes sense. Almost everyone else has the completely opposite point, and sometimes it's not even as well thought out as Sam's point, but that doesn't matter. They tell it to Sam multiple times, so that we can't miss that every one has warned Sam. Then everything happens the way everyone else but Sam said that it would, and Sam ends up causing an apocalypse. It happened in season 4 and it happened here. And so my point was did Mr. Carver really have to have Castiel pointing out again in this episode that Sam shouldn't do this? We already had Death give his warning, so did we really need the chorus? I got it the first half dozen times everyone said it, so much so that I knew Sam was going to start an apocalypse about 5 episodes ago.

 

And this is *my* bitterness...because yes, Sam has been told multiple times and by multiple people that he's wrong, and he still goes ahead and does it, and...HE'S WRONG.  My complaint here is that Sam apparently *never learns.*  He doesn't take anyone else's opinion into consideration, doesn't compromise, doesn't rethink, just goes ahead and does what he thinks is right...and yes, maybe it does make more sense than the others, but well-thought-out still doesn't necessarily mean right.  (I once read a 19th-century medical text that was trying to explain why/how people caught tetanus, all without the idea of bacteria.  It was very well-thought out, well-reasoned, completely logical and completely wrong, just because they were missing that one little piece of information.)  

 

So to me, if every time Sam's actions turn out to be wrong, then maybe he should think that maybe he's missing some piece of information.  Then, the next time three or four people tell him not to do something, he should stop and rethink his plans.  Or at least discuss it with them and come up with a compromise.  He's supposed to be the smart one, after all.

 

So if you want to blame the writers for something, it's not for always making him the fall guy (though that's the outcome) but for making him so inflexible and unwilling to listen to others that he just does what he wants, no matter what the consequences.  For never learning from his past mistakes.  

 

Now as to consequences: yes, Dean took on the Mark without asking the consequences, but (and I had to go to the SPN Wiki transcript to get this) Cain told him: "But you have to know with the mark comes a great burden. Some would call it a great cost."

 

Nowhere in there does it imply that he would become a danger to others, or that the burden would impact anyone but himself.  So, yes, he was stupid not to ask what exactly that meant, but I can see where he would think that the burden was his (alone) to bear. To me at least, that's not the same as everyone telling Sam how evil the Book was and having him ignore them.  And they may have been not completely specific, but there were enough warnings to make Sam want to at least consider the consequences himself.  Check the Wiki transcript of "Book of the Damned."  

 

Now, I don't mean to start the "Sam is always wrong and Dean is always right" (or vice versa) fight up again.  I think they've *both* been incredibly stupid and stubborn many, many times over the years, and have *both* been excoriated by fans for their wrongdoings (and honestly, judging by the comments and anger on both sides,  they're about equal in the blame/fault game.)  But I'd just rather point at the writers for constantly making the boys take one small step forward in growth and then 5 or 6 giant steps backwards every time.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Commando Cody]

I find this show tends to have a lot of misplaced anger.  Pamela was a forgettable character that was so insignificant that I never remember her until her episodes come around.  She hated the angels because looking at Castiel blinded her.  He told her to stop.  Bobby told her to stop.  But she knew what was best, so it was all Castiel's. fault.  Not her fault at all.  

 

It seems like misplaced anger and blame runs all over this show.   

 

Of course it was Sam's fault that Charlie's dead.  It couldn't be Charlie's fault that she chose to leave a protected place.  Wasn't it Charlie who went off on her own and stole the book to begin with?  Did Sam ask her to do that or did she just off doing her own thing? Did she just show up with the book and say "surprise look at what I dug up". ?  "I'm a hunter now".  Then the Stynes knew she stole the book and were all out looking for her.  I honestly don't remember how that all happened.  

 

I'm in the middle of watching season four again.  I miss season four Castiel so much.  I didn't even notice, until several viewings later, the shadow that crossed Dean's face when Cas gripped him tight and raised him from perdition.  That shadow is one of those things that one might not even think about until you know the story and watch the episode again.  

 

I came into this show during Crossroad Blues when it was in reruns on TNT.  After I started watching the show regularly, I decided to record the new ones.  The new episode, at the time, was the werewolf college students.  I'm not sure I would have continued watching if that was the first episode I ever saw.

 

After School Special is on right now.  Whenever I see the dad, I think of Farmer Shooty Pants and the farmer saying "Lenny?"  

 

There's some more Sam guilt right there.  The kid was a bully, but everything that happened to him was Sam's fault.  They tried to make the bully sympathetic by giving the viewers a glimpse of his home life.  At school he was a mean kid and the other kids didn't know what he did in his free time - when he wasn't picking on the other kids.  The kid's dad was unaware that his son was a bully and believed the other kids picked on him.  The actor who played teenage Dean was pretty much perfect casting.  

 

I never understood Sam for ditching Kevin for that vet.  I didn't think her guilting Sam into taking the dog was endearing or being assertive.  It was just her coming off as kind of a bitch.  I don't even know why Sam liked her.  How did she know the dog didn't belong to anyone?  If she knew it was a stray, why didn't she take it in earlier? How did she know no one was looking for it?  

 

I kind of think an earlier version of Sam would have looked for Dean.  However, I don't know where he would start.  Dean and Cas disappeared in a blast of goo.  Where do you go from there?  He wouldn't have known if Dean was dead or alive.  Do you make another deal to bring Dean back not having a clue as to what happened to him?  Not looking for Dean didn't bother me all that much.  It was the completely forgetting that Kevin existed and shacking up with that kind of wishy washy woman.  If Dean isn't in Sam's world, no one exist in Sam's world. Except for the women he shacks up with. However, a demon even trumped Dean.   Sam hunted alone when Dean was dead in Mystery Spot. He didn't really keep in contact with Bobby. I don't think Sam makes any real connections with anyone.  Not with Cas, not with Charlie, not even as much as one would expect with Bobby.  It's Dean who seems to feel the real loss.  He even made a connection with Crowley and lecturing him on who your real family is.  I think Dean might be "mind wiped" Jesus.  His mother was Mary.  Jesus was inspired by John The Baptist and followed in his footsteps.  His other absent father, God, is off on a fishing boat somewhere sharing deep thoughts with Elvis and Jim Morrison.  Or just sitting quietly.  Some like to fish that way.  

 

Sam doesn't seem to think much beyond what his own needs are.  Granted, he was dragged into this life he didn't want.  However, Sam does make me think of this line from Harry Potter. "Your soul as dry as the pages of the books to which you so desperately cleave.".  Maybe the yellow eyed demon was right.  Sam could have come back wrong the first time he died. 

Edited May 24, 2015 by CommanderCody

[NoWillToResist]

It's not about saving people anymore, it's about saving the Winchesters at the expense of any character that has more than a few lines.

It's funny because I read a post somewhere else online where someone was defending Dean/Sam by basically asking the reader if they'd be willing to sacrifice their loved one for the greater good. And you know, while I get where the poster is coming from, I don't think it really applies in this case. Dean and Sam are not regular people. They have been presented as brave and heroic. They daily put their lives on the line to save the lives of complete strangers for no reward at all. Their life's work is very dangerous. And yet, when push comes to shove, neither can let the other die. And I'm sorry, it's no longer touching to me.

They've seen enough and experienced enough and "betrayed" each other enough to know better by now. And while I can understand not being able to literally murder your brother, I cannot support their insistence on "saving" the other, when the one in danger has made it clear that he doesn't want to be saved and/or they want to die because their sacrifice would save so many. Frankly, I can't really forgive Dean for stopping Sam from closing the gates of Hell. Sam knew the risks and wanted to do it anyway but because Dean just can't handle a world without Sam, he begs him to stop. Never mind that this would have been the perfect capper to Sam's efforts over the years against evil. Nope, Dean didn't want to be alone so Sam couldn't shut down hell. Selfish. And then Sam was dying anyway so Dean made the deal with Gadreel. Selfish again.

Shoe was on the other foot this season yet Sam couldn't see it and pushed ahead to try and save Dean.

Sadly, Dean and Sam are now on the same level as the assholes from Sons of Anarchy, as far as I'm concerned. Brave posturing men who take part in very dangerous activities which often have fatal consequences. And they seem pretty ok with that until it hits close to home. Then they're shocked and upset that someone/something dared to hurt/kill them.

Sure, Dean talks a big game about expecting to die with a weapon in his hand and whatever, but the only way that's gonna happen is if Dean and Sam are taken out at the same fucking time because these two fuckers will move Heaven, Earth, Purgatory and Hell to avoid living without the other and damn the consequences or what the one in peril actually wants. It's particularly grating when it comes on the heels of them not being in accord for most of the season. Doesn't matter what lies and betrayals preceded the final showdown, if the solution to the big picture problem is the death of ONE Winchester, then that problem will live to see another day. That's why the likely 'both brothers go out in a blaze of glory' scenario for the series finale will, sadly, feel very cheap to me. Because, after 10 seasons of this, it's clear to me that one brother will not be left standing. Dead or alive, they will do it together. Which, in most other frameworks, would be touching...but will just be a giant 'well duh' for me with this show.

[7kstar]

It's funny because I read a post somewhere else online where someone was defending Dean/Sam by basically asking the reader if they'd be willing to sacrifice their loved one for the greater good.  (snip). And yet, when push comes to shove, neither can let the other die. And I'm sorry, it's no longer touching to me.

They've seen enough and experienced enough and "betrayed" each other enough to know better by now. And while I can understand not being able to literally murder your brother, I cannot support their insistence on "saving" the other, when the one in danger has made it clear that he doesn't want to be saved and/or they want to die because their sacrifice would save so many. Frankly, I can't really forgive Dean for stopping Sam from closing the gates of Hell. Sam knew the risks and wanted to do it anyway but because Dean just can't handle a world without Sam, he begs him to stop. Never mind that this would have been the perfect capper to Sam's efforts over the years against evil. Nope, Dean didn't want to be alone so Sam couldn't shut down hell. Selfish. And then Sam was dying anyway so Dean made the deal with Gadreel. Selfish again.

Shoe was on the other foot this season yet Sam couldn't see it and pushed ahead to try and save Dean.

 That's why the likely 'both brothers go out in a blaze of glory' scenario for the series finale will, sadly, feel very cheap to me. Because, after 10 seasons of this, it's clear to me that one brother will not be left standing. Dead or alive, they will do it together. Which, in most other frameworks, would be touching...but will just be a giant 'well duh' for me with this show.

My problem is with the writing.  How about Dean not wanting Sam to close the Gates of Hell because it will cause more harm than good?  The big bad at the end of this season came out of left field and could have been interesting if it had been set up.

 

I don't get what Carver wants with all of this?  Does he really want us to believe that TFW can save each other and still save the world.  How about giving us a reason why this time matters more than last time.  How about we connect the dots between the 10 years.  Why not brainstorm these questions before you ruin your 2 lead characters...

[supposebly]

 

How about Dean not wanting Sam to close the Gates of Hell because it will cause more harm than good?

 

We still don't know if that was true or not. So, as a viewer, I can either go along with the theory that it WAS better not to finish the trials, basically going along with Dean's decision and Sam going along with it or I don't.

This means, my beloved characters sacrificed the possibly positive outcome of finishing the trials for their selfish reasons, Sam was right in accusing Dean and I'm left thinking Carver doesn't give two craps about destroying two of my favorite TV characters ever.

 

Or at least he doesn't care what his crappy plots do to them.

 

And they said season 8 and 9 of the X-files was bad. At least the characters are intact.

Edited May 25, 2015 by supposebly

[Mick Lady]

That would mean that Carver would even consider this issue.  We had people stuck in the veil for one ep and then poof it's no longer talked about or even dealt with, everything went on as normal.

 

Hence why I not even concerned, care or whatever about this final.  It won't be dealt with.  The first 3 eps will maybe deal with it, then the boys are back to MoW stories, some meta thrown in and then the last 3 will be crunch time and let's do something stupid to say we've done something about this.

 

I'm sure I'll tune in, I haven't been able to stop yet but I am closer to leaving than staying.  So unless they give me something that I like, I won't worry about all  the issues because Carver will never address them, he hasn't yet in the past either.  Hope that makes sense.

 

I hurt myself last night and in a lot of pain so maybe it only makes sense in my headspace.  But maybe that is Carver's problem.  It makes sense to him, just not to us long time viewers.  Short time viewer, or just joined fans aren't tired of the rinse and repeat so they can be excited.

 

I swear to God (or Chuck!) 7kstar, if you stop watching and posting, I will personally hunt you down! Don't you dare leave us! We need you!

[Linderhill]

 

I love John Winchester. And I like JDM. I don't know why the writers, after Johns death, continued to throw John under the bus, making him sound like more and more of a bastard, but from what I saw on screen he was a driven, tortured, passionate, sometimes mis-guided man, who loved his sons, and who in the end chose his sons over revenge.

I like original Meg (didn't like new Meg), loved original Ruby (not new Ruby), and I always liked Ellen and Jo

Bobby never bothered me, and I don't mind when he shows back up onscreen

LOVE Charlie, love Rowena (though at first I couldn't understand a word she said, lol)

Do not like Garth. Annoying

I loved the psychic kids storyline, and the special Sam storyline (and I'm a 'Dean girl')

And, since I'm watching the end of season 1 right now on TNT, I am vowing to never make fun of Sam's more current hair or to yell at my screen "get a haircut Sam" as long as it NEVER goes back to the cut in the late Season 1/ early season 2. Wow it's bad

...oh and since it was mentioned up thread for some reason, I LOVED Conner from Angel!

I agree with most of this post except for two points.  I liked Charlie alright when she first came on but never LOVED her like so many other fans.  She started to grate on my nerves because she became so much a MarySue.  I didn't want to see her dead but I would have been happy if she'd stayed in Oz.  Rowena, just no.  She's always grated on me.  She was so predictably fake and insincere it drove me crazy.  I can't wait for her to die a horrible death. 

 

The second point I don't agree with is that I never liked Connor on Angel.  But then I never liked Cordelia so character the assassination of both characters never bothered me.  I also wasn't much of an Angel/Boreanez and still aren't.  But these items don't mean anything on a Supernatural forum besides those that worship at the feet of Joss Whedon.  I don't.  He's a good show runner but he's got his faults (I've only read one of his Buffy comic books and that was enough).  I have other unpopular opinions about Whedon and the Buffy 'verse but this is the Supernatural forum.

 

My own unpopular opinion is that I don't think Chuck is god like so many viewers think.  I think they even said in the episode commentary for "Swan Song" that he wasn't if I remember correctly.  Its been a while since I listened.  

 

I liked "Fan Fiction" and thought it was great fun.  It wasn't supposed to be a great mytharc episode, just a monster of the week with a bonus.  I loved it.  I loved that Chuck came back for that final scene. 

 

In response to those commenting on podcasts a couple of pages back: 

I listen to the Winchester Bros. podcast even tho' I get frustrated sometimes when they seem to fall into their Sam-girl roots.  I keep listening because I really don't have anyone else to talk to about the show, even vicariously.  I only recently started listening to the "Women of Letters" and I'm thoroughly enjoying them.  I used to listen to the AfterBuzz pod cast but this season the three girls have been too ditzy.  I tried listening to the "The Road So Far" podcast but had to stop when it got to mid season 2.  Matt, one of the original podcasters seemed to have some ridiculous reasons for disliking an episode.  He didn't like "Skin" because it wasn't a good representation of St. Louis.  They didn't like "Faith" because Sera Gamble wrote it.  Matt didn't like that Dean sang, or even that Jensen sang because he was a professional musician and didn't like how he sounded.  As a matter of fact, both podcasters hadn't watched from the beginning (which does make a difference to me) and seemed to be judging the early episodes by how they wanted the show to work.   When Matt started going off on "Crossroad Blues" about historical accuracy I had to stop.  I tried listening to the current podcasts during season 9 I think it was and got bored, never went back.  

Edited June 3, 2015 by Linderhill

[supposebly]

I watched a few season 5 episodes yesterday and basically what Zachariah said to Adam has come true: They'd rather save each other's sweet bacon than save the planet.

 

Season 8 ended like that with no one knowing whether stopping the trials helped or not and as far as I know, Carver has conveniently forgotten to assure anyone on that little plot point and now, it's come true again.

 

The Winchesters have become the menace of  creation. Thanks so very much.

[trxr4kids]

We still don't know if that was true or not. So, as a viewer, I can either go along with the theory that it WAS better not to finish the trials, basically going along with Dean's decision and Sam going along with it or I don't.

This means, my beloved characters sacrificed the possibly positive outcome of finishing the trials for their selfish reasons, Sam was right in accusing Dean and I'm left thinking Carver doesn't give two craps about destroying two of my favorite TV characters ever.

 

Or at least he doesn't care what his crappy plots do to them.

 

And they said season 8 and 9 of the X-files was bad. At least the characters are intact.

As Awesom0400 has pointed out before, Dean's decision usually turns out to be right regardless of Sam having a valid POV/motivation. So IMO since it was Sam trying to close the gates it would have backfired just like Castiel trying to close Heaven. My bitterness is that Carver won't let either brother have a legitimate win, it's all got to lead to more angst and infighting. I'm honestly baffled by the accumulation of new viewers, I can only speculate that they caught earlier eps and became hooked. Had I just tuned in in the last few seasons I never would have rewatched the show or bothered to watch past seasons.

[FlickChick]

I suspect the increased new viewership is youth related. I think young viewers romanticize the brotherly "saving each other's bacon" at every turn and don't think about the ultimate consequences - in this case "screwing the planet". We (ah-hem) "mature" viewers tend to wonder why they keep repeating the same mistakes and probably tire of the resulting angst more easily. I would be interested in seeing the new viewership demographics.

[supposebly]

Well, before they didn't really know the consequences, like Dean going to hell would jumpstart the seals breaking and Sam killing Lilith would complete the task.

 

This time, the consequences were staring them in the face (season 10 finale). Or were disregarded (season 8 finale). We still don't know what would have been if they had gone through with it. But then, it was Cas's time again to screw the pooch. Out of sheer stupidity.

 

So, at some point, I found it wonderful, these days, I don't.

 

I don't think it has anything to do with age. I think it has more to do with binge-watching a huge number of seasons where most of the plot gaps and issues sort of fly by and you focus on the good parts. Still, the repetitiveness should be even more apparent.

 

Of course, most people don't take the show apart like we do.

 

So, some people leave, some start watching.

[rue721]

One of my friends started watching SPN around S8. She only just went back and watched the earlier seasons on Netflix a couple months ago, after I kept encouraging her to. (For context, we're both in our late twenties).

 

Anyway, here's literally what she texted me after she watched this year's finale:  OMGOODNESS! ! ! ! ! !  JUST FINISHED WATCHING SUPERNATURAL.  WHY DO THE WINCHESTERS KEEP SCREWING UP THE WORLD!!!!? ????!!!!

 

LOL that text cracked me up. (I didn't watch the very end of the season with her because I nearly spoiled her on Charlie's death. I let it slip to her that somebody dies in that episode (before she'd seen it), and all the blood just drained from her face and she asked if it was Crowley. Because of that, I put a gag order on myself w/r/t SPN, through the end of the season, so as not to actually spoil anything for her).

 

Anyway, my perception is that people who started watching the series later don't necessarily see Sam and Dean as heroic or like they even need to try and be heroic. I think people who came on-board later (like S8 and since) see them more as just a part of the crazy supernatural world they live in, having supernatural adventures. Not so much as people who need to help or fix things for others.

 

That's different from how many people who came on early in the series see things, I think, because back in the earlier seasons, the "saving people, hunting things, the family business" mission statement was in full effect, and really guided the Winchesters' behavior and also the show's tone and the kinds of stories it handled overall.

[rue721]

ETA:

 

Oh, so regarding the repetitiveness -- I think that if you're watching just to see a bunch of supernatural adventures, and aren't looking for the characters to grow/change/etc, then it hasn't been all *that* repetitive, because the specific supernatural threats keep changing. But if you're watching for character growth, then it's going to feel very repetitive and static, because there hasn't really been any character growth for a long time now (if ever).

 

I think that because of how the show's tone and focus have changed in the last few years, people who came to the show more recently are more likely to think that the point is to watch supernatural adventures and fall into the former camp, and people who came to the show in the earlier seasons are likely to think that the point is to see the characters as being on a specific mission to "fix things" (including their own lives/relationships/selves) and to be exasperated by the lack of character growth and repetitiveness.