Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[supposebly]

 

The 100th was such a dud with the fans, as far as I know, that I can't help but wonder if the 200th was written to make up for it.

Come to think of it, what and when was the 100th? Season 5 Or 6? I can't remember.

[AwesomO4000]

It was "Point of No Return," and I happened to love that episode, myself.

[SueB]

It was "Point of No Return," and I happened to love that episode, myself.

Me too.

[supposebly]

Oh, I didn't remember it being the 100th. I like that one too.

[Demented Daisy]

 I wasn't referring to the content of the episode, more that it came and went without much fanfare.  That's the biggest (and most common) complaint I've read -- that you'd never know it was the 100th episode by watching.

[Demented Daisy]

You know why I love Rowena?  Because she's a baddie who's still bad.  Crowley has done some horrible things to the Winchesters, but they seem to have conveniently forgotten all of it.  At the same time, what has Crowley done this season?  Partied with Dean, buckled before Dean, argued with his mother, gave the Winchesters what they wanted, come when they called, etc.  Is he waiting for Dean to become a demon again?  Why?  Didn't work out too well for him last time.

 

On the Heaven front, we've got Marvatron -- who has been, essentially, neutered.  He hasn't been a threat in ages.  Everything he says is a lie, even when he says he lied (I expect).  Why go to him for anything?  I'm sure it's just a set-up for him to escape, which... yawn.

 

But Rowena....  She's always working an angle.  When her plans are thwarted, she's ready with a back-up.  She's cruel and vindictive and prideful and scheming.  What more could you ask for in an antagonist?

 

As always, mileage varies.

[mertensia]

I'm always astonished that Crowley has never just locked up either of the Winchesters. I think he *should* have done so with DemonDean.

[supposebly]

 

That's the biggest (and most common) complaint I've read -- that you'd never know it was the 100th episode by watching.

Agreed, since I couldn't remember that it was the 100th.

 

 

I'm always astonished that Crowley has never just locked up either of the Winchesters. I think he *should* have done so with DemonDean.

 

I don't think he could. Also, he wanted to use him, not lock him up. But I do want him to be bad again and earn that title King of Hell again. He seems rather defanged these days although I did see his old self again in the confrontation with Rowena.

Now, I hope he goes back to treating the Winchesters like enemies again and they do too, because really.....this buddy comedy is annoying as hell. Have they forgotten what he did to Kevin? The poor soul who Dean was so cut up about when he got him killed? Just as an example of the many things?

Edited April 2, 2015 by supposebly

[amensisterfriend]

I've already confessed to the very unpopular opinion of feeling that S7 is by far my favorite of the series' post-S3. So now I will horrify everyone, including myself, by admitting that I actually find Season Seven Time for a Wedding to be entertaining. Then again, i nearly always find the series' liighter, comedic episodes far more enjoyable than the repetitive, depressing angst we usually get...even when said comedic episodes contain material that fans very understandably find offensive or just plain dumb!

[SueB]

Hey, no judging here....it's the unpopular opinion thread!

[Aeryn13]

 

I wasn't referring to the content of the episode, more that it came and went without much fanfare.  That's the biggest (and most common) complaint I've read -- that you'd never know it was the 100th episode by watching.

 

I think there was early-stuff promotion. Way back then TV Guide did an article, teasing it would be a big episode, dealing with the Dean and Michael relationship. I remember getting all excited for it. Then the actual episode aired with the writing on the wall re: Adam the perfect substitute and Dean back to the bench and other than the Zachariah kill, it was pretty much garbage. I was so diappointed the show screwed up its 100th episode. For me, it`s a big milestone and some shows do amazing with it so I usually have high expectations for it. All dashed here.

 

With 200, I didn`t care so much because IF a show gets there, the quality is usually so low, I expect that to be crap. In that vein, I found "Fan Fiction" on some level more offensive and on some level less so than I expected so in the end it did even out to "crap".

Edited April 2, 2015 by Aeryn13

[mertensia]

Oh Season Seven Time for a Wedding is actually pretty good. But then I think Becky is a well-done character and I find her confession about how this just wasn't the way she thought it would go was spot-on. She had built it up and then Sam....just didn't act as her big daydream said he would.

Season Seven as a whole holds together pretty well when you binge-watch it.

[amensisterfriend]

Mertensia, thanks for letting me know I'm not alone! 

 

And now I'm actually shocking and mildly horrifying myself by really enjoying parts of S8 quite a lot, This may be my most unpopular opinion ever, even more so than liking S7 and disliking (relatively speaking) S4 and S5 :) 

[amensisterfriend]

ETA:

 

I usually love the funnier episodes, and as someone way too familiar with all the other types of shows Changing Channels is gently mocking (I watch A LOT of TV!), I'd have expected Changing Channels to be among my all-time favorite episodes of the series. Bizarrely enough, I don't like it all that much. In fact, as meta S5 episodes go, I far prefer The Real Ghostbusters. 

[AwesomO4000]

I love them both for different reasons. For me "The Real Ghostbusters" was a great one off with a little bit of mytharc thrown in. There was so much I loved about the episode: the one off characters, the classic ghost story complete with grave digging, and the reactions of Sam and Dean. "Changing Channels" ended up having a bigger impact on the mytharc because of Gabriel, but I also enjoyed the parodies. Both episodes had some funny Sam, and I always enjoy that.

[catrox14]

I don't really like Changing Channels other than the Dr Sexy bit which makes me laugh so much. I like a few of the cute moments, but I resent Changing Channels for fucking with the Trickster and making him Gabriel.  BOO!

[Aeryn13]

I loved Changing Channels and making the Trickster Gabriel was the one ret-con (I wouldn`t even call it a retcon because it fits beautifully with his enigmatic message in Mystery Spot) I adored. I might mark it down as the most kick-ass twist in the entire show.

 

In related news, I also liked the much-maligned one with all the pagan Gods and Gabriel`s exit. Hammer of the Gods? He got a genuinely moving and heroic send-off. Yes, it was about as tactful as the title when it came to non-Christian religious beliefs.

 

Meanwhile the Real Ghostbusters, I found to be a bust. Of course, I found Becky nails on a chalkboard. And not because I felt insulted on the representation or something - I couldn`t have felt LESS represented by Becky if I tried so I didn`t take it personally - but I just hated her. But Dean getting that ludicrous message of "a normal life sucks so much, adventure rules" FOR REAL and not just played as the delusions of fanboys who don`t even have an idea about how sucky life can be? What were you smoking, writers. And I don`t want any of it.

 

An episode that I did enjoy was actually that Ghostbusters one with the shaky cam. And I hate shaky cam but it had some nice moments and I didn`t mind the episode focusing on the guest stars so much. Not back then at least. 

Edited April 6, 2015 by Aeryn13

[Demented Daisy]

Meanwhile the Real Ghostbusters, I found to be a bust. Of course, I found Becky nails on a chalkboard. And not because I felt insulted on the representation or something - I couldn`t have felt LESS represented by Becky if I tried so I didn`t take it personally - but I just hated her. But Dean getting that ludicrous message of "a normal life sucks so much, adventure rules" FOR REAL and not just played as the delusions of fanboys who don`t even have an idea about how sucky life can be? What were you smoking, writers. And I don`t want any of it.

 

I didn't love The Real Ghostbusters, either.  Probably because I wasn't involved in the fandom in any way back then, so I didn't get a lot of the jokes.  (Barnes and Demian, for example.  Didn't have a clue for a couple of years later, actually.)

 

Becky was always the worst possible image of a fangirl.  She has always been inappropriate and, you know, if the roles were reversed, Sam would be having her arrested for assault.  ("Can you stop touching me?"  "No."  I know that's not from TRG, but anyway....)

 

For me, TRG was a lot like Wishful Thinking in that "grass is always greener" way.  The fanboys didn't see how much Sam and Dean's lives sucked because they get to drive around and kick ass instead of being chained to a desk all day.  Meanwhile, Dean is a little more inclined to want their lives because they're not dealing with trying (and possibly failing) to save all of humanity.  And, of course, people dying around them on practically a daily basis.

 

If it was all "saving people and hunting things" all the time, their lives would be awesome, no doubt.  But it's not.  There are some seriously harsh realities that the fanboys will never be able to understand.  

 

I thought Dean explained that pretty well.  But it's possible I'm getting it mixed up with another episode or I'm forgetting something that happened in TRG.  I think I'll go read the transcript.  Nothing wrong with a refresher, right?  :-)

[DittyDotDot]

I didn't love The Real Ghostbusters, either.  Probably because I wasn't involved in the fandom in any way back then, so I didn't get a lot of the jokes.  (Barnes and Demian, for example.  Didn't have a clue for a couple of years later, actually.)

 

I wasn't involved in fandom when I first watched the episode either, but I'm not sure you needed to get all the inside jokes to get the joke. Personally what I like about The Real Ghostbusters is how they poke fun at themselves just as much as they poke fun at fandom. Yes, Becky is the most extreme example of a fangirl, but not an unrealistic one, IMO--I'd say we have a couple Becky's hanging around here. You may not understand the bungee joke is something Jared and Jensen used to say, but it was funny to me they seemed to be poking fun at themselves in the way they wrote the show. So, I think that's why the episode works for me and I still have a fondness for it all these years later is because I wasn't involved in fandom. It was never personal to me. I always thought this show had this unique way of making it like they weren't laughing at us, but with us. I'm not sure they have this ability anymore. So, it may not be my favorite episode in S5, but I do enjoy it quite a bit. 

 

Changing Channels is just a lark and I love it for that alone. For me, the Trickster being Gabriel actually makes perfect sense in hindsight and I love the reveal. It's one of the few times the show really blindsided me and I totally bought it. I do think Changing Channels is one of those episodes one shouldn't watch too much or the gag wears thin, though. I have the same reaction to Monster Movie now too. It's fun and I love they went there, but over multiple re-watches it's charm wears off some. Same with Ghostfacers and The French Mistake.

[rue721]

My favorite Becky episode is Season 7, Time for a Wedding! There's actually a lot that I like about that episode, some pretty funny bits. Though thank god they had Sam and Becky have that conversation when she said that she hadn't raped him/they hadn't had sex.

 

I didn't like The Real Ghostbusters, but it's been so long since I've seen it that I don't remember why.

 

Changing Channels was pretty fun imo. There were some small touches I liked, like how they had those really personal and weird questions on that "Japanese Game Show," but then the guys never got a translation or explanation. I always like the Trickster, though. The only times I don't care for him is when he's Gabriel. Could never get behind that ret-con, but that's probably to be expected because I don't really like the angels or the heaven storylines just in general.

Edited April 6, 2015 by rue721

[Demented Daisy]

NUTCRACKER!!!!!

 

Sometimes, for no reason at all, my husband and I will shout that at the other.  Then our daughter will call one of us an "assbutt" and all will be right with the world.  (I miss her so much since she went off to college.)

 

 

You may not understand the bungee joke is something Jared and Jensen used to say, 

 

It was?  Did not know that.

[Aeryn13]

 

For me, TRG was a lot like Wishful Thinking in that "grass is always greener" way.

 

I really liked Wishful Thinking and I think the end was presented differently. You had that guy whining at the Winchesters that just because he wasn`t hot like them, he had to resort to wammy a woman to be his sex slave. But I believe the episode played it like "boohoo, what a creepy loser". Sure, attractive people have perks but that still doesn`t get the comely guy sympathy for using magical roofies.

 

Whereas Real Ghostbusters I felt you were totally supposed to be on the side of the fanboys and agree that Dean got a necessary reminder on the awesomeness of his life. I mean, what`s a little hell and all, at least you aren`t doing a boring day job, right?

 

I would love to have an adventurous life, too - I just wouldn`t want any of the drawbacks and inconveniences that I know come with it so I realize that this is more like a pipe dream. I want it, but not really. These guys were played as doofuses who were incapable of making that distinction. Which, fair enough, I do believe there is people out there like that. But I don`t want to see such childish naivety validated. 

[DittyDotDot]

You may not understand the bungee joke is something Jared and Jensen used to say,

 

It was?  Did not know that.

 

Yeah, apparently Jared and Jensen used to joke on set that they should just attach their weaponry to bungee cords since they always get knocked out of their hands. I can't remember which commentary this was on...maybe The End?

[Goldmoon]

Is it bad that I'm not picturing a gun when I think of Jensen's "weaponry."  I'll be in my bunk.

[AwesomO4000]

I loved Changing Channels and making the Trickster Gabriel was the one ret-con (I wouldn`t even call it a retcon because it fits beautifully with his enigmatic message in Mystery Spot) I adored. I might mark it down as the most kick-ass twist in the entire show.

 

In related news, I also liked the much-maligned one with all the pagan Gods and Gabriel`s exit. Hammer of the Gods? He got a genuinely moving and heroic send-off. Yes, it was about as tactful as the title when it came to non-Christian religious beliefs.

 

[snip - see below]

 

An episode that I did enjoy was actually that Ghostbusters one with the shaky cam. And I hate shaky cam but it had some nice moments and I didn`t mind the episode focusing on the guest stars so much. Not back then at least. 

 

I agree with all of this, especially "Ghostfacers." For some reason, it's one of my favorite Dean episodes. I love how Dean adapts to the situation and talks to the people behind the camera, because he accepts that it makes them feel better about what's happening and so uses that to keep control of the situation.

 

And Sam having to wear that ridiculous party hat is never not funny to me.

 

Meanwhile the Real Ghostbusters, I found to be a bust. Of course, I found Becky nails on a chalkboard. And not because I felt insulted on the representation or something - I couldn`t have felt LESS represented by Becky if I tried so I didn`t take it personally - but I just hated her. But Dean getting that ludicrous message of "a normal life sucks so much, adventure rules" FOR REAL and not just played as the delusions of fanboys who don`t even have an idea about how sucky life can be? What were you smoking, writers. And I don`t want any of it.

 

Whereas Real Ghostbusters I felt you were totally supposed to be on the side of the fanboys and agree that Dean got a necessary reminder on the awesomeness of his life. I mean, what`s a little hell and all, at least you aren`t doing a boring day job, right?

 

I would love to have an adventurous life, too - I just wouldn`t want any of the drawbacks and inconveniences that I know come with it so I realize that this is more like a pipe dream. I want it, but not really. These guys were played as doofuses who were incapable of making that distinction. Which, fair enough, I do believe there is people out there like that. But I don`t want to see such childish naivety validated. 

 

I'm not sure if the naivety of the fanboys was validated exactly. I thought the episode did a good job of skirting the line. As was pointed out before in the episode, the boys didn't know that Supernatural wasn't real. And they also didn't know what happened to Dean in hell since they only had till the end of season 3 in the books. Even Dean himself didn't really understand the consequences of hell when it was an abstract concept. He knew it was bad, but not how bad until he experienced it.

 

And the guys weren't so much saying that adventure was awesome over the "normal life" so much as they were saying that to have a life like in the story where you make a difference, saved the world, and had a brother who loved you so much to sacrifice for you was what was great to think about. They had no idea Dean's life was real, so they weren't purposely giving Dean the message that his life was awesome - they didn't know anything concrete about hell or the coming apocalypse and all of the pressure and pain that entailed. They only had an exciting taste of what Dean and Sam do and were going off the "high" of that win without having to have experienced any of the lows themselves. Their perspective was limited due to the information they had, and so they were by nature unreliable narrators. I don't think based on that that we as the audience were supposed to take it as an informed opinion on Dean's life. What Dean likely took from it -  as he had in the past - was that what he does does matter and even guys like those fans can see that, even if it's only through what they think is a fictional story.

 

Admittedly Damien and Barnes were a little naive and a little enamored with the "what would Sam and Dean do?" concept, but the episode also gave us the other fan who upon getting beat up by the ghost took the other perfectly rational opinion of "get me the hell out of here!" and who wanted nothing more to do with it after his taste of the supernatural, not getting his money's worth by leaving be damned. So for me, the episode did try to show both sides of it, and I think that's fine. There are people who are happy being firemen and rescue workers who wouldn't think twice about doing risky things to save people and who put themselves through stress all the time to do that, because they think it's important, exciting, or whatever the draw is for them. I personally wouldn't want that life myself, but I don't think they are necessarily wrong, crazy, or naive for wanting it and / or for feeling that it gives their life meaning. The world is made of all kinds, and I'm fine with that.

 

Changing Channels was pretty fun imo. There were some small touches I liked, like how they had those really personal and weird questions on that "Japanese Game Show," but then the guys never got a translation or explanation. I always like the Trickster, though. The only times I don't care for him is when he's Gabriel. Could never get behind that ret-con, but that's probably to be expected because I don't really like the angels or the heaven storylines just in general.

 

I liked the little "commercial break" for shrimp chips - which by the way are awesome. I love shrimp chips. Prawn chips are even better - my husband brought me back some from Malaysia and I was sad when they were gone - but shrimp chips are an adequate substitute. Now they don't - as the fake add claims - make you lose weight, but they are rather fat and calorie light compared to potato chips. I also like the texture better. Light, airy, and just enough shrimp flavor to be delicious.

[Aeryn13]

 

There are people who are happy being firemen and rescue workers who wouldn't think twice about doing risky things to save people and who put themselves through stress all the time to do that, because they think it's important, exciting, or whatever the draw is for them. I personally wouldn't want that life myself, but I don't think they are necessarily wrong, crazy, or naive for wanting it and / or for feeling that it gives their life meaning. The world is made of all kinds, and I'm fine with that.

 

I don`t think seeking an adventurous and/or dangerous life is crazy. Professions like firemen and rescue worker and all that are very admirable. I just meant, I, working an office job, wouldn`t whine to them about how boring my life is and how good they have it. Not without expecting to get justifiably smacked in the face. Yet, I did feel the episode completely validated that mindset. It skirted over on how they couldn`t have and didn`t have the faintest idea on what they were talking about and presented it kinda in the same vein as Zachariah on the office AU. "Why do you whine? Be glad your life isn`t THIS". For real? 

 

I know people hyperbolically say their job/life may be hell, office jobs very much included but I`m also reasonably sure that if you put them up on some meathooks and tortured them for even five minutes, priorities would shift lightning-fast.

[SueB]

 

I know people hyperbolically say their job/life may be hell, office jobs very much included but I`m also reasonably sure that if you put them up on some meathooks and tortured them for even five minutes, priorities would shift lightning-fast.

True. But any mission-based career (fireman, military, police, first responders, etc..) will tell you the sense of purpose can be addicting, even if it screws up your life sometimes.  

[7kstar]

I found out who Damien was before TWOP closed but who was Barnes?

 

I thought of Becky as over the top and I don't see many Becky's on this board?  I'm sure there are some but to me she was just an over the top character they created to poke fun of.  I enjoyed it once but I haven't watched it since, so not a favorite by a long shot.  Becky out grew her welcome and at the end I was glad to see her go. 

 

I also would like them to show fans that are not so crazy...I know I'm not normal...can't be if you go into acting or teaching middle school, but I'm not insane either.

 

I thought of the show trying to show, that Dean and Sam had the life, because so many are looking for someone that really cares about them, have lots of adventures but doesn't think about the day end to life issues.  It's a fantasy, and one they can quit whenever they want because for them it isn't real.  So I didn't mind it so much because I got they didn't have a clue and Dean was suppose to re-evaluate his life and see that he did have some good things going even if it felt really sucky at the moment.

[SueB]

 

I thought of Becky as over the top and I don't see many Becky's on this board?

Becky is from Winchester Brothers...it's been acknowledged that's where they got the name.  The character is not meant to BE the actual Becky although I think she DOES Wincest. 

[DittyDotDot]

I found out who Damien was before TWOP closed but who was Barnes?

 

Barnes was the mod for the Supernatural boards over at TWoP. I'm not sure exactly when she started and/or when it was Lockley took over from her, but I know she was around for S4 and S5.

[catrox14]

Well, now I feel weird listening to the Winchester Bros podcast. 

[7kstar]

Barnes was the mod for the Supernatural boards over at TWoP. I'm not sure exactly when she started and/or when it was Lockley took over from her, but I know she was around for S4 and S5.

 

Oh that's why I don't know, I just started watching season 4 but avoided TWOP because how awful they were to Numb3rs and I was a fan of that show.  I literally started the year they closed, so thanks!

 

Well, now I feel weird listening to the Winchester Bros podcast. 

???

[catrox14]

I don't like Becky. I'm not comfortable with the idea that one of people on that podcast is the model for Becky.  And I kind of have issues with some of their commentary anyway. 

[SueB]

I don't like negativity in podcasts. I really like the Women of Letters Podcast by Jules (Superwiki) and Amy (sweetondean). It's full of Aussie goodness. 

[catrox14]

I don't like negativity in podcasts. I really like the Women of Letters Podcast by Jules (Superwiki) and Amy (sweetondean). It's full of Aussie goodness. 

 

I'm really enjoying The Road So Far and Supernatural: The Crossroads. I'm partial to the latter one because it seem to be the only only one hosted by men and I find it really interesting hearing a male's perspective on the show, just because it seems kind of rare other than professional reviewers. It's a fun show with  good blend of humor and IMO legitimate criticism combined with some fanboying. And I like The Road So Far because they seem to have a nice balance of positive criticism and fangirling.

[rue721]

Most people in (legal) dangerous professions can still have families, friends, and live as part of society, though. The thing about being a hunter that seems extremely shitty, to me, is how isolated the lifestyle is. It's more like living in the "underworld" or being a criminal than it is like working in a high-risk but "legitimate" job like being in the military imo.

 

That's also why I find it so weird how the show keeps trying to pair up the Winchesters with law enforcement, and now, with people in the military. It seems like there would be an intractable conflict between hunters, who live as though there isn't any law and order (since they've found out the hard way, by whatever event made them become hunters, that there isn't!) and the people whose job it is to uphold law and order (and have to believe it exists!). Aren't hunters kind of "outlaws," by definition? I mean in the sense of "a person excluded from the benefit or protection of the law," and having to live outside of society.

 

Personally, I wouldn't want to be an outlaw! But I don't think it's strange or embarrassing that people would want to playact (or glamorize) being one. Not that I remember The Real Ghostbusters well, so can't really comment on it specifically.

 

When it comes to characters guilt-tripping the Winchesters to be grateful that they don't have "normal" lives, though I think the crux of the issue is that outsiders (like Zachariah) tend to assume that the Winchesters's lives are especially meaningful because they aren't "normal." And who wouldn't be happy to know that his life has meaning? I think that Zachariah assumed that because Dean Smith was a corporate drone -- rather than a hunter working to stop the apocalypse -- that Dean Smith's life was less meaningful than Dean Winchester's. So Zachariah thought that being Dean Winchester would be preferable to being Dean Smith -- in his view, Dean Winchester had a meaningful life, and Dean Smith didn't. *But* I think that the Winchesters themselves, or at least Dean in particular, don't actually think that their lives or work are more meaningful than other people's.

 

Sam seems like he has *found* personal meaning in their lives, and finds what they do meaningful *now.* Dean seems like he still struggles to find personal meaning in it, though. And I don't think Dean thought that Dean Smith's life actually was less meaningful than Dean Winchester's. When he was Dean Smith, he didn't react like Sam did and want to run off to start hunting more ghosts. It seems to me like Dean likes the actual work of hunting and likes that he's genuinely good at it, but that that's cold comfort to him at times because doing it means he can't have a lot of things in his life that he genuinely wants.

 

I think Sam and Dean are also bound to have different perspectives, because like I've said before, it seems to me (jmv) that Sam thinks of "being a hunter" as something he committed to as an adult, and associates it with hunting as an adult with his brother, whereas Dean thinks of "being a hunter" as something that he committed to as a child, and associates it with being taught to hunt as a child by his father. So I think that Dean is more ambivalent over his commitment to hunting and the lifestyle it entails than Sam is. Not that he's less committed to it, just that he's got different feelings about that commitment and lifestyle than Sam does imo.

 

I'm really enjoying The Road So Far and Supernatural: The Crossroads. I'm partial to the latter one because it seem to be the only only one hosted by men and I find it really interesting hearing a male's perspective on the show, just because it seems kind of rare other than professional reviewers. It's a fun show with  good blend of humor and IMO legitimate criticism combined with some fanboying. And I like The Road So Far because they seem to have a nice balance of positive criticism and fangirling.

 

Irl, probably a third to a half of the people I've known who watch SPN are guys. (I even got one ex boyfriend really into the show!). But online fan stuff tends to skew *so* female ime. Not just for SPN, but for shows in general nowadays. No idea why that is!

 

Luckily, my bff is now really into watching sports, so she *finally* understands my obsessing over TV :P. I try (and fail) to fangirl over sports with her, and she's a good sport over my TV fangirling in turn. But otherwise, all the friends I talk about television with irl are guys. Women never really bring it up and I don't bring it up with them. No idea why that is, either!

[catrox14]

 

Irl, probably a third to a half of the people I've known who watch SPN are guys. (I even got one ex boyfriend really into the show!). But online fan stuff tends to skew *so* female ime. Not just for SPN, but for shows in general nowadays.

 

No idea why that is!Luckily, my bff is now really into watching sports, so she *finally* understands my obsessing over TV :P. I try (and fail) to fangirl over sports with her, and she's a good sport over my TV fangirling in turn. But otherwise, all the friends I talk about television with irl are guys. Women never really bring it up and I don't bring it up with them. No idea why that is, either!

 

Oddly, my experience is just the opposite. I have come across a handful of guys that watch SPN via a couple of sports blogs I participate in. And most of my IRL friends barely watch TV much less sci/fi-fantasy drama, which is why I love these kinds of forums otherwise I would just be talking to myself about the things I like LOL.

 

It seems to be more women than men that actually comment in places like PTV. Even at AV Club before they stopped doing SPN reviews (the assholes) it seemed to skew more towards women commenting than men at least those that acknowledge their gender.  But I was really talking about the online podcast world. 

 

I'm sure all of our experiences are different.  Just sharing my personal experiences. :)

[AwesomO4000]

I don`t think seeking an adventurous and/or dangerous life is crazy. Professions like firemen and rescue worker and all that are very admirable. I just meant, I, working an office job, wouldn`t whine to them about how boring my life is and how good they have it. Not without expecting to get justifiably smacked in the face. Yet, I did feel the episode completely validated that mindset. It skirted over on how they couldn`t have and didn`t have the faintest idea on what they were talking about and presented it kinda in the same vein as Zachariah on the office AU. "Why do you whine? Be glad your life isn`t THIS". For real? 

 

I know people hyperbolically say their job/life may be hell, office jobs very much included but I`m also reasonably sure that if you put them up on some meathooks and tortured them for even five minutes, priorities would shift lightning-fast.

 

Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I thought you thought that people in those professions were crazy - I was more going for something like the comment below from rue721. As for the rest, I can see this if Demian and Barnes did know who Dean was, but for me they didn't know they were whining to Dean. They were discussing with someone they thought was a fellow reader who they thought hadn't gotten the same message from the story that they had - kind of like what we do here, in my opinion: discuss our differences of opinion over what the show means. As Demian had pointed out earlier in the episode, they didn't think "Dean" would care because "Dean" was a fictional character so far as they knew. And according to them, they thought that the message of the Supernatural books (and message was the word I think they used) was that making a difference by saving people and having such a close bond with your brother and family was something good. They weren't even saying that getting tortured or all of the crap that goes along with it was worth it as far as I can tell, because to them it's not real and for them all the stuff they were saying was just what they got from the story. I'm pretty sure that if they did know it was real, they wouldn't be saying "wow that's so awesome. I wish that were us." Especially if they believed that was Dean and if they really knew what happened to Dean in hell (which they didn't.)

 

So I don't equate what Demian and Barnes were saying with Zachariah's "message." Zach did know what Dean went through. He was just such an ass that he thought he was being oh so clever at creating this whole moral play and thought he knew it would lead to the result he wanted. Obviously he was entirely wrong concerning Dean, because Dean still said "no." Ironically Sam got the message Zach was looking for, but of course, as usual, they were so focused on Dean they entirely missed the opportunity to try and convince Sam over to their side. Very short-sighted on their part. The one brother who believed in them and was going down the path they wanted they dissed and insulted - he eventually did get where they wanted, but they had to manipulate things quite a bit. Imagine what they might have been able to do if they had encouraged Sam and talked him up instead and manipulated him that way. He so needed a win after failing to save Dean, they likely could've gotten him to do just about anything. It just goes to show, in my opinion, the angels don't understand humans and how they think at all.

 

rue721: Personally, I wouldn't want to be an outlaw! But I don't think it's strange or embarrassing that people would want to playact (or glamorize) being one. Not that I remember The Real Ghostbusters well, so can't really comment on it specifically.

 

This. This is pretty much what I was trying to say. And yes, even if you don't remember it well, that was pretty much the message that I got from the episode. That and that after they had gotten an actual taste of doing it for real where they did actually save the day and they didn't lose or have bad crap happen... that just reenforced the glamorizing part. It would be sort of like someone thinking being a gambler might be fun and trying a slot machine and hitting it big versus someone trying it that first time and losing his/her shirt. That someone who hit the jackpot might get a false "high" off the experience... and that is where Demian and Barnes were, in my opinoin. I'm sure if they'd failed to kill the ghosts in time and a bunch of people died, they likely wouldn't have been so upbeat. They likely would've said "wow that was horrible. Why would anyone want to go through that all the time?" Just my opinion there, I realize though.

 

I also would like them to show fans that are not so crazy...I know I'm not normal...can't be if you go into acting or teaching middle school, but I'm not insane either.

 

I thought of the show trying to show, that Dean and Sam had the life, because so many are looking for someone that really cares about them, have lots of adventures but doesn't think about the day end to life issues.  It's a fantasy, and one they can quit whenever they want because for them it isn't real.  So I didn't mind it so much because I got they didn't have a clue and Dean was suppose to re-evaluate his life and see that he did have some good things going even if it felt really sucky at the moment.

 

I agree with that last part. That's what I got too.

 

About showing a not crazy fan - they did have one of those in this episode, too. As I said, I loved the part where that one fan who was LARPing got beat up by the real ghost and promptly basically said "screw this! This is not what I signed up for. I don't care if we don't finish this convention. I'm out of here!" to his buddy who wanted to keep role-playing. A perfectly rational reaction to getting beaten up by a ghost, in my opinion. I thought that was awesome.

 

But otherwise, all the friends I talk about television with irl are guys.

 

My real life and online chatting experience is similar - with the exception of my mom who loves to talk television. Many years ago we had a rather large online chat group. We would meet once a week and watch a Buffy episode together and comment (through text) MST3K style and sometimes meet other times of the week and chat about Buffy and with each other. Through all the time we did the chat (many years), it was always the guys who were the most consistent of our group besides myself. Besides me and one other, most of the other women came and went usually after a short time.

Edited April 7, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[7kstar]

Funny I get the feeling it is more women on this site than guys.  And my experience has been more women. 

 

IRL I don't talk about my shows because very few of my friends would understand.  I've only had chats with  three shows though, this one, Star Trek Voyager and Numb3rs.

[AwesomO4000]

Funny I get the feeling it is more women on this site than guys.  And my experience has been more women. 

 

IRL I don't talk about my shows because very few of my friends would understand.  I've only had chats with  three shows though, this one, Star Trek Voyager and Numb3rs.

 

I agree that there are more women here. The more men chat sites I was talking about happened in "real time" since it was a live conversation chat. Message boards are a different kind of venue, I think... though thinking about it, the Buffy fanbase - at least back then - was likely different, and the message board I was also on then seemed to contain a more balanced number of men and women. The discussions though back then were no less detailed or varied with opinions all over the map on almost every major character. Even what should be basic principals of the show - such as what being a vampire in that verse means - weren't agreed on, with two main very contradictory theory camps, both able to point to various evidence in the show to support the theories. As can be imagined, this lead to very detailed and interesting "discussion," especially since Joss never came out - as far as I know - to point to either theory as the right one.

 

Sort of like this show, but in some ways worse, because at least in Supernatural, that kind of thing - basic principals being fuzzily or worse, contradictorily, defined - is (arguably) less common. Well... maybe not so different after all.

[mertensia]

 

Becky was always the worst possible image of a fangirl.  She has always been inappropriate and, you know, if the roles were reversed, Sam would be having her arrested for assault.  ("Can you stop touching me?"  "No."  I know that's not from TRG, but anyway....)

Becky is an excellent, IMHO, depiction of ULTRAFANGIRL. The one who desperately wants to be part of the story. The one who wants to marry the star. The one who wants to be in the Inner Circle. She had this elaborate story in her mind. She tried to make it work and she got flustered when Sam responded as Sam and not the Sam in her fantasy. 

 

Are all fans like Becky? Of course not. Are there actually people like Becky out there? Oh, yes. 

[Aeryn13]

 

So I don't equate what Demian and Barnes were saying with Zachariah's "message."

 

For me it was the exact same vibe. The message was IMO meant to go to Dean in the "see, quit whining, your life is awesome" way and the audience was supposed to agree with this, no matter the messenger and the context it was delivered in. And I hated every character who delivered those speeches to Dean in those moments. And plentiful there were.

 

Becky lost me upon her ontroduction when she brushed away Dean like an insect "you are not what I pictured". Like HE wasn`t hot enough for HER. Pfft. It started the trend of doing meta episodes via Sam-fans exclusively. Marie in Fan Fiction was less of an extreme-stan but hey, if I don`t exist in their fandom meta world, it`s not like I feel particularly engaged in it. That`s why an episode like Changing Channels did engage me because I watch lots of TV. Becky and the Fan Fiction ep left me feeling completely excluded.    

 

And I know Real Ghostbusters had actual character pairs for the brothers but like I said, the vibe at the end crashed it for me. The character I DID root for in that episode was the critical fan they had eaten. It was actually a pretty exact foreshadwoing for their twitter attitudes when faced with criticism.

[DittyDotDot]

Well, now I feel weird listening to the Winchester Bros podcast. 

 

I've only listened to a couple of their podcasts, so I don't know for sure, but my understanding is she is Becky in name only. The podcasts I've heard, she defiantly doesn't come off as the character of Becky from the show, to me. I was under the impression the character of Becky was born out of many different experiences, mashed together and heightened. I believe they named her Becky because Becky was known to many in the fandom and it made for a fun shout out. Just like the Demian and Barnes depicted in The Real Ghostbusters were nothing like the real Demian and Barnes--or nothing like their fake online personas, anyway.

 

I found out who Damien was before TWOP closed but who was Barnes?

 

So, I gotta ask 7kstar, did you read Demian's recaps? If not, you might find them littered with delightfulness. Plus, it's really apparent Kripke and Co. were reading them...actually more like mining them.

Edited April 7, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[shang yiet]

I think Sam and Dean are also bound to have different perspectives, because like I've said before, it seems to me (jmv) that Sam thinks of "being a hunter" as something he committed to as an adult, and associates it with hunting as an adult with his brother,

 

 

It's also something that was forced on him by John when Sam was just a child and a fate that landed on him because of Mary's death. I think hunting comes with many bad memories for Sam. I never thought Sam was wrong for wanting to get away from hunting and the family destiny. I never thought it was more 'noble' to hunt, especially if you have options elsewhere like Sam.

[Goldmoon]

Sam thinks of "being a hunter" as something he committed to as an adult, and associates it with hunting as an adult with his brother, whereas Dean thinks of "being a hunter" as something that he committed to as a child, and associates it with being taught to hunt as a child by his father. So I think that Dean is more ambivalent over his commitment to hunting and the lifestyle it entails than Sam is.

I like your take on when the boys accepted hunting as a lifestyle choice but I have to disagree on the commitment.  I think if anyone is ambivalent it is Sam.  He seems to have to be reeled back into it by his brother rather than for the noble cause that it is.  Not saying that he doesn't appreciate saving people, but in the (horrible) season eight, he specified that he could live his own life and let people die the Death By Monster.  I think hunting is so engrained in Dean that he feels like there is nothing else to define him except Brother.  Dean is Brother, Hunter, and Son, and sometimes other roles like Music Lover and Driver, but he has always been presented as having more narrow interests and being, IMO, completely, irrevocably committed to The Life.

[AwesomO4000]

I like your take on when the boys accepted hunting as a lifestyle choice but I have to disagree on the commitment.  I think if anyone is ambivalent it is Sam.  He seems to have to be reeled back into it by his brother rather than for the noble cause that it is.  Not saying that he doesn't appreciate saving people, but in the (horrible) season eight, he specified that he could live his own life and let people die the Death By Monster.  I think hunting is so engrained in Dean that he feels like there is nothing else to define him except Brother.  Dean is Brother, Hunter, and Son, and sometimes other roles like Music Lover and Driver, but he has always been presented as having more narrow interests and being, IMO, completely, irrevocably committed to The Life.

 

I disagree a bit. Their perspectives are sometimes relative, depending on when in the series it is. There were several times in the series when it was Dean lamenting on whether or not hunting was worth it and Sam would reel him back in with that argument that saving people was worth it. Off the top of my head, I'm recalling "What Is..", "Mannequin 3..." and even "It's a Terrible Life." Most of season 7 as well, where hunting became Sam's reason to keep going and not go completely bonkers, and it would be Sam who would drag Dean back into regular hunts and away from his Dick Roman quest. * For me, it actually seemed - especially in the middle seasons - that it was Dean who more wanted the regular life away from hunting. Although not entirely happy, Dean seemed to at least adapt to life without Sam when he was with Lisa and he even seemed to get something out of being partner to Lisa and pseudo father to Ben. Whereas in "Mystery Spot" Sam hung on to hunting as his sole life focus when Dean was gone, and then in season 4, Sam let his desire for revenge consume him, but he was also hunting demons with again no consideration of giving up his quest. Even soulless Sam was all about hunting - which is kind of weird, considering he didn't even care much about the saving people part but somehow still seemed to be compelled to hunt constantly. So add in that actual Sam does care, and hunting becomes very important to him - the, to me, nonsensical change in season 8 being a glaring exception rather than the norm.

 

I can see what you are saying here as well, but for me, Dean has actually in general been shown to be more adaptable. It seems to be in his personality. He was perfectly happy taking his Hollywood PA cover and quickly enjoyed getting into the job even beyond it being his cover. He adapted into his family life with Lisa and Ben and even made ties in the neighborhood. He seemed much more content as Dean Smith in "It's A Terrible Life" than Sam was as Sam Wesson. Sam used to be that way when he went to Stanford, but it didn't take much for him to decide that he didn't want that anymore, and he closed that chapter and since the beginning of season 2 didn't look back (for 6 or so seasons anyway).

 

So I guess what I'm saying is that there are examples for both sides of that issue.

 

* That last thing especially is why for me Sam's 180 degree turn from that position to what we got in season 8 made little sense and that the narrative completely skipped over that transformation was mind-boggling to me. That they'd give us all this detail of seemingly irrelevant (and boring) stuff in the flashbacks, but somehow not show us how and why Sam went from hunting being his reason for being to "ehn, that's not my problem anymore" I will forever be bitter about as to me that was actually the most important detail of the story and not something to be fast-forwarded over if we were supposed to understand Sam's point of view at all. In my opinion, they fast forwarded over it because they just wanted it to be, but couldn't really figure out - or care to figure out - why that would even make sense.

Edited April 7, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[FlickChick]

Well, I don't know whether it's an unpopular opinion or not, but I will never feel the same way about Sam since S8. In the beginning of the season, he didn't look for Dean, abandoned Kevin, stopped hunting (while still reading about people dying from assumed monsters) and went on his merry way to "real life" and organic farmers' markets. In the middle of the season, he was irrationally jealous of Benny, threatening to kill Benny, and of course, his "best" move - sending crazy Martin to track Benny all the while being an asshole to Dean whom he apparently wished never returned from Purgatory. At the end of the season, he talked Dean out of trying to find another Hellhound and took over the trials so that he could close the gates of Hell and live to tell about it (unlike Dean who didn't seem to think it mattered if he lived or not if the mission was accomplished). When the final trial came and Sam thought he would die completing it, he told Dean he didn't care since Dean seemed to care more about Benny and Cas than about him. Good Lord! But Dean managed to talk Sam out of his depression by telling him that NO ONE was more important to him than Sam. And then, of course, we have S9 where Sam does a 180 again. Frankly at that point, I didn't care whether Sam lived or died. How sad is that after once caring a great deal about him? Great job, Supernatural!

[rue721]

That and that after they had gotten an actual taste of doing it for real where they did actually save the day and they didn't lose or have bad crap happen... that just reenforced the glamorizing part. It would be sort of like someone thinking being a gambler might be fun and trying a slot machine and hitting it big versus someone trying it that first time and losing his/her shirt. That someone who hit the jackpot might get a false "high" off the experience... and that is where Demian and Barnes were, in my opinoin. I'm sure if they'd failed to kill the ghosts in time and a bunch of people died, they likely wouldn't have been so upbeat. They likely would've said "wow that was horrible. Why would anyone want to go through that all the time?" Just my opinion there, I realize though.

 

Isn't that how you hustle or scam somebody? Make winning look easy, so as to lull them in, and then convince them to commit more than they can really stand to lose, and then wipe them out?

 

I just bring it up because in this past episode Dean was hustling pool, and for the first time in a long time, so I wonder if the metaphor might be part of what's coming into play right now?

 

Crowley also seems to be scamming him similarly. Crowley's whole schtick is to look weak so that people lower their guard, and *then* strike. He's a manipulator rather than a fighter.

 

Becky is an excellent, IMHO, depiction of ULTRAFANGIRL. The one who desperately wants to be part of the story. The one who wants to marry the star. The one who wants to be in the Inner Circle. She had this elaborate story in her mind. She tried to make it work and she got flustered when Sam responded as Sam and not the Sam in her fantasy. 

 

Are all fans like Becky? Of course not. Are there actually people like Becky out there? Oh, yes. 

 

The thing that I didn't like about Becky was that it seemed like a really mean spirited portrayal. I don't really mind caricatures in general -- Kevin was sort of one, too, etc. But I felt like there was an edge to how they wrote Becky, that put me off.

 

Though I found that the tone of the show in general, during the period in which she got introduced, had that same sort of mean-spirited edge to it. That's when I dropped SPN for a while iIrc. I also didn't like Chuck or really the whole idea of the Supernatural books (though I've grown to like the awkwardness of those within-show Supernatural books. It was pretty funny when Charlie confessed to reading them (this season?) and was visibly itching to fangirl a little, but the whole situation was so uncomfortable. LOL). So maybe it's just a "no accounting for taste" sort of thing.

 

Weirdly, I guess, I didn't mind Becky in S7. Obviously, what she did to Sam was horrible and bizarre, but her motivations were pretty human and made sense in their own awful way, and I liked how Sam reacted to it, because his reactions seemed pretty human, too. But I actually liked Season 7, Time for a Wedding! in general, imo it was an interesting episode. I guess that's my UO for this post, LOL.

 

It's also something that was forced on him by John when Sam was just a child and a fate that landed on him because of Mary's death. I think hunting comes with many bad memories for Sam. I never thought Sam was wrong for wanting to get away from hunting and the family destiny. I never thought it was more 'noble' to hunt, especially if you have options elsewhere like Sam.

 

I think that Sam hated it as a child, but it's also the only life he knew growing up. I think it feels fundamentally normal to him, for good or ill. Also, I think that John tried very hard to force hunting and a particular way of life on Sam, and Sam was apparently under a lot of pressure to comply. But he resisted that pressure, and took another course (went off to college and decided to make another life for himself). Though John desperately wanted him to and tried to force him to, I don't think that Sam committed to hunting as a child. I think he committed to it as an adult, after Jessica was killed.

 

(Though, since hunting and that lifestyle is Sam's "normal" and what he grew up in, to a certain degree I guess he committed to it unwittingly somewhat?).

 

I like your take on when the boys accepted hunting as a lifestyle choice but I have to disagree on the commitment.  I think if anyone is ambivalent it is Sam.  He seems to have to be reeled back into it by his brother rather than for the noble cause that it is.  Not saying that he doesn't appreciate saving people, but in the (horrible) season eight, he specified that he could live his own life and let people die the Death By Monster.  I think hunting is so engrained in Dean that he feels like there is nothing else to define him except Brother.  Dean is Brother, Hunter, and Son, and sometimes other roles like Music Lover and Driver, but he has always been presented as having more narrow interests and being, IMO, completely, irrevocably committed to The Life.

 

I think that (now/recently) Sam thinks he has other options, but chooses to hunt, and Dean thinks he doesn't have any other (acceptable) options and makes the best of what he's got. I think they both enjoy the actual work, and think it's worthwhile, and are 100% committed to it. But I think that Sam feels a lot more ownership over the choice to be a hunter because he consciously *chose* it out of other options, as an informed, empowered adult (since he originally rejected it as a child). Whereas imo Dean seems to feel that he chose to be a hunter and shut down his other options in life while he was still an ignorant, naive child, and now feels some resentment and regret over having rushed into committing to that choice. And imo, based on how he reacts to parents/kids nowadays, feels like he was somewhat manipulated by John into making the choice he did in the way he did (and as early as he did). Not that he necessarily would have chosen differently (doubt it), but I think that he has different feelings than Sam does when he looks back on that choice, because it was made in a different context.

 

Granted, I have no idea what to make of Sam in S8, so I just leave that out of my analysis as an outlier that will skew the data :P

 

I think some really major turning points for Dean where when Sam was killed (by Jake) in S2, and when things fell to shit with Lisa and Ben in S6. I think after Sam was killed (in S2), shit got real for Dean and he lost heart in a way. And I think when things fell to shit with Lisa and Ben, he figured that any other sort of life (other than hunting) was not an option for him, and that has been pretty weird/hard for him to deal with. I think that's when the obsessiveness/resentment toward Sam started, because he lost hope that he would have nobody else other than Sam, ever. And I think that's when he started thinking in terms of being "just a killer."

 

Something that I like about this show is that some of the characters get ground down and destroyed with age, rather than being on a trajectory of perpetual growth. You can see the youthful optimism get crushed out of them, lol. That's yet another reason why I wish the show hadn't killed off Ellen and Jo so fast but...that's another post for another day, I guess :).

[catrox14]

My head!canon is that Dean trying to keep Sam a normal kid as long as he could influenced Sam's desire to live a normal life away from hunting.   I remember him saying "I just wanted you to be a kid for a little while longer". He lied to Sam about their life until Sam called him on it. He never wanted Sam to know about monsters.

[7kstar]

So, I gotta ask 7kstar, did you read Demian's recaps? If not, you might find them littered with delightfulness. Plus, it's really apparent Kripke and Co. were reading them...actually more like mining them.

I think I've read a few before the site closed down and honestly don't remember the link.  Maybe when time calms down I'll try tracking them down.  I remember something about a dragon but not much more than that.  It is interesting that Kripke & Co. would mine them for stories.