S03.E10: Dandelion Sky

[raven]

Quote

Holden sees past, present, and future; a ghost from Melba's past threatens her mission; Bobbie struggles to trust an old friend as she leads a group into uncharted territory.

[marinw]

What just happened? That last minute was very trippy. I need to to process.

Why are so many ship in the Ring? Why does everybody think this is a good idea?

“I watched my child burn” So that’s what happened to Ashford’s face. I’ve been wondering about that. We know that 23rd medicine is pretty advanced, so Ashford must have decided to keep the scars.

[raven]

Tip:  Do not discharge weapons/throw grenades is the blue planet-y station; bad things will happen.  Bobbie shot at Holden!  aw, c'mon now.

Holden and Miller floating through space was bad CGI (hey, the show can't be perfect all the time).

Alex and Amos were gold as usual and I enjoyed Naomi telling the Martians to basically fuck off.   I want my Roci crew back together wahhh.

5 minutes ago, marinw said:

We know that 23rd medicine is pretty advanced, so Ashford must have decided to keep the scars.

Ashford is definitely the type to not care about his scars aesthetically.  They also show anyone he meets that he's a tough bastard. 

I enjoyed all of his interactions with Drummer and how Drummer wasn't fooled by what he was doing. 

The Anna stuff slowed things down too much. 

[Guest]

Interesting that Holden coming to believe that some part of Miller was really there was enough for him to push forward and interface with a place that had just gooed a guy.

Edited June 14, 2018 by ParadoxLost

[WatchrTina]

Well I'm gonna need to watch that again to take it all in.  Immediate reactions:

• I could watch Alex & Amos react to weird shit all night long.
• If I never see Melba/Clarrisa again that would be fine with me but, alas, it looks like the moronic little rich girl working out her Daddy issues by enacting a vengeance plot is going to be at the center of the action for a while longer.
• Anna's really batting 1000 isn't she?  First she blows off the suicidal guy seeking comfort and then she sends the aging debutante (I've forgotten her name) to talk to homicidal Clarrissa.
• And speaking of the suicidal guy -- I don't mean to sound insensitive but did they really need to hold a memorial service right then?  I mean, shouldn't everyone have been at their duty stations focused on the non-miracle miracle happening right in front of them?  Couldn't the memorial have waited a day or so?
• I'm so annoyed with the Martians right now.  I love Bobbie but who the fuck gave the Martians the right to tell Holden what to do?  No one knows what is going on in that bubble -- who are they to interfere with him?  He's not sure if he should listen to Proto-Miller but they don't have any better, more accurate inside info.
• I love the fact that Drummer can read Ashford like a cheap novel but I find myself unendingly annoyed by the low-simmering threat he represents to Drummer's command.  Oh and Diogo can fuck right off as well.
• I wonder where Monica and Creepy Blind Dude are right now?
• Hey photo-molocule -- you better not have hurt my girl Naomi with that sudden stop you just pulled.
• When Holden went on the proto-vision did anyone else have a flash-back to 2001: a Space Odyssey with a dash of American Gods (the floating nekkid in space bit) thrown in for seasoning?
• I really hate the Melba/Clarrisa story-line.
• I really want to know what happened to Amos when he was five.

Edited June 14, 2018 by WatchrTina

[marinw]

After spending two and a half seasons devoted to physics, I’m not sure how I feel about this show’s turn towards the mysterious. I need to remind myself that the Protomocule is technology, too, just tech that looks like magic. The people beholding the Ring is like a Neanderthal gazing at an airplane or a smart phone. No matter how smart the Neanderthal, she can’t comprehend what’s in front of her.

Also, naked Holden.

Edited June 14, 2018 by marinw

[raven]

2 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I'm so annoyed with the Martians right now.  I love Bobbie but who the fuck gave the Martians the right to tell Holden what to do?  No one knows what is going on in that bubble -- who are they to interfere with him?  He's not sure if he should listen to Proto-Miller but they don't have any better, more accurate inside info.

They believe he blew up the UNN ship for the OPA and that he's unstable.   I would also guess that the Martian government has to put out a general directive that the Martians have to know what's going on at all times and not just wait to be told what's happening.

 

3 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I could watch Alex & Amos react to weird shit all night long.

Casting gold - love them together so much! "This is some weird shit" "Holden doing..I have no clue what Holden's doing" LOL
 

5 minutes ago, marinw said:

Also, naked Holden.

Two thumbs up!  Also, bonus Amos arms.

[ACW]

19 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

 

• I really want to know what happened to Amos when he was five.

"No, you don't."

[WatchrTina]

9 minutes ago, ACW said:

"No, you don't."

Okay, point taken.  If it was really bad maybe I don't want to know.  But I think there is a novella out there that covers Amos' back-story and now I'm tempted to read it.  I suspect they are never going to tell that story on the show -- they're just going to keep hinting at it during episodes like this.

I'm left wondering -- does Amos not feel fear because of all he endured in his childhood?  Or is he incapable of feeling fear because somebody messed with his brain?  They certainly hinted at the latter back when they had him so fascinated with that scientist who had had his empathy surgically removed.  But that's a topic for another day.  

I can't WAIT to see what is going to happen in the bubble next . . . so long as it ends with our central four back on the Roci.  (Bobbie can come for visit too but I'd rather she make her way over to the earth ship and kill Clarissa a lot.)

Edited June 14, 2018 by WatchrTina

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, raven said:

They believe he blew up the UNN ship for the OPA and that he's unstable.   I would also guess that the Martian government has to put out a general directive that the Martians have to know what's going on at all times and not just wait to be told what's happening.

Objectively speaking the Martians are the ones approaching this more logically.  Holden is listening to an "alien" entity when they go into the Ring.  Admittedly, he trusts this entity only because its really the only hope to escape certain death for the crew.  The Martians are there to discover what this thing is.  That is their mission.  They see what Holden did and then start applying process of elimination on how the Ring works and learn how to navigate.

I can't really fault the Martians for thinking Holden is unstable.  He's talking to a voice that isn't there and he's caught up enough in it that he isn't even capable of hiding it while talking to the Martians.  I'm in agreement with the Martians that maybe its not the best idea to activate / interact with this thing.   Its not believable that Holden would stick his hand in a thing that just splatted a guy and incorporated him into the station.  So I'm glad they took a beat before that for Holden to refuse to continue and only had him go ahead and "finish it" because Miller convinced him that he actually was still Miller.  That is probably the only thing that would work for me as a reason to take such a stupid risk.  It only works for Holden or the crew of the Roci and even then just barely.

The biggest problem the Martians had is that when Holden wouldn't stop they panicked and when the Ring reacted they panicked even more.

I laughed when Amos listed the weird shit and it included alien shit, magic gates, Holden doing I have no idea, and Naomi leaving.

[UNOSEZ]

Good episode... I'm hoping now melba's bullshit will come to light

[anamika]

I could watch an entire episode of just Miller and Holden bantering their way to that ring station.

Was bored with the entire Anna-suicidal lieutenant plot on the Thomas Prince. 

Drummer should have got rid of that aqua belter kid a while back. He's been nothing but a back-stabbing traitor for a while now. I remember that he was hanging out with the guys who plotted against Fred Johnson and shot Drummer. She should be more careful.

Melba continues to be annoying with her Holden hate. At least Tilly recognized her.  Poor Naomi, unable to get to the guys.

That Martian was seriously dumb throwing around grenades in a place where the laws of the universe no longer make sense. Got turned into the floor for his stupidity.

Draper shooting at Holden :( 

Amos wanting to go punch the Martians in the face before they get to Holden and promising to take Alex along with him in his suicide plot - typical Amos!

That last scene...Can't wait for what happens next.

Edited June 14, 2018 by anamika

[mjc570]

I thought the Martians wanted to take Holden (and the rest) into custody not just because he appeared unstable and possibly had destroyed that other ship, but also because they feel (correctly) that he stole the Tachi/Roci and want it back.

Nothing bad better happen to my gal pal Drummer!

[anamika]

The Martians always come off as two levels for me. The top brass and commanders - on the Donnager, Scirocco, Hammurabi etc. - were calm, collected, logical and had much cooler heads than their earth counter parts. On the other hand, the Martian soldiers always come off as the aggressive, shoot-first ask questions later type. Even Bobbie was that way first so it's not surprising to see the way they reacted at the ring station.

I feel like they could have waited it out instead of following Holden to the unknown - would have been the more sensible thing to do, IMO.

[showme]

First of all, Holden has a beautiful body. Just saying.

But, what exactly was happening after he put his hand in between the gap?

I actually watched that sequence a few times in order to figure it out, and to me, it looks like a huge amount of information was being downloaded to Holden;s brain. What those flashing images mean though, I have no idea. Any thoughts?

Edited June 14, 2018 by showme

[thuganomics85]

Glad that Drummer totally knows what Ashford is up to, right down to him "defending her" when others question her leadership, in order to make himself look "noble" and whatnot.  Sadly though, I worry that it might be too late.  I feel like he's already planted the right amount of seeds of doubt with others and from has been gathered, it sounds like he's suppose to a beloved "old timer" amongst the Belters, so I fear Drummer could end up being overmatched, if a cue does take place.

I could see why from Bobbie and the Martian's perspectives, Holden seemed off his rocker, but it still wasn't fun watching her pull the trigger.  Of course, that; and tossing that grenade; ended horribly for the Martian squad leader, to say the least!

I could have watched an entire episode of Alex and Amos trying to figure out what in the hell is going on and why everything is falling apart.

So, Melba's real name is Clarissa, and she is so far gone that she's to the point of getting ready to murder this Tilly character.  Good thing the ring's slo-mo kicked into effect, because I can only imagine how Anna would feel if she not only didn't notice the signs about the suicidal lieutenant, but she then accidentally sent a woman to her death.

Thomas Jane is a delight and a half as Proto-Miller. 

[tennisgurl]

So thats what doing acid in outer space is like! So trippy this week! 

I love the banter between Holden and "Miller" so much, its so weird and otherworldly, but also fun in how Miller is talking in this sort of sideways style, trying to use the context of Millers memory and Holdens worldview, while Holden is just trying to figure out what the ever loving fuck is actually happening here. 

I dont blame the Martians for thinking that Holden, who is floating around a crazy maybe alien ring apparently talking to himself, is unstable and should probably be taken in now. They did definitely come off as rather gung ho to get to the fighting, and that, of course, leads to bad when you wonder into a place where gravity has taken a vacation. Its nice seeing Bobbi again, and it was nice to see her defend Holden. I can only assume her shooting at him was muscle memory or desperation, and not her actually wanting to hurt him. He was also so polite over the comms to her, it was kind of hilarious. "Shut up you idiot...oh no sorry Bobbi wasn't talking to you..."

I could watch Amos and Alex just react to weird stuff all day, they're just golden. "And Holden...I have no clue what Holden's doing."And I love how Amos tries to help Alex with his fear of imminent death by basically telling him that if they were gonna die, Amos would go out in a final blaze of glory, while taking Alex with him. While comparing Alex to a cat. I need the whole Rocci crew together again ASAP! 

Good on Drummer for knowing whats up right away. I love her and her fierce eye shadow game so much. 

Clarissa is certainly caring less and less about casualties in her crazy revenge scheme. She was all teary killing that other guy, and now she is practically cackling at killing Tilly. Hope she survives, I kind of like her, and Anna doesn't need that much more on her mind. 

[WearyTraveler]

3 hours ago, showme said:

I actually watched that sequence a few times in order to figure it out, and to me, it looks like a huge amount of information was being downloaded to Holden;s brain. What those flashing images mean though, I have no idea. Any thoughts?

The official episode description says that Holden sees the past, the present and the future.  I'm going to guess the sequence describes a civilization that was once there (as Proto-Miller described it to Holden), how it was destroyed, how the ring got to where it is now, and how it's going to end (if someone doesn't do something).  The last shot seemed to be the destruction of the sun in our solar system, so, yeah, Earthers, Martians and Belters appear to be in a bit of a pickle.

It seems to me that the ring and the chamber that Holden entered might not be from the same source.  If I'm reading the images right, whatever destroys the sun comes from the ring.  The chamber could have been created by a civilization that was eventually destroyed by the creators of the ring, but who wanted to warn other civilizations about what it would mean for them when the ring appears in their galaxy.

Edited June 14, 2018 by WearyTraveler

[shrewd.buddha]

I am completely not interested in the adventures of Anna, Space Preacher. Apparently she is a neglectful mother, bad wife, inept counselor and poor judge of character. Her talents seem to be speech writing and smiling while frowning. I would rather have watched any other character instead of Anna's space memorial scene. 

And watch out, Melba/Clarissa : bad things happen to people who try to mess with Space Jon Snow. 

[CigarDoug]

10 hours ago, marinw said:

Why are so many ship in the Ring? Why does everybody think this is a good idea?

Not sure if you are being rhetorical, but:

• Maneo, a Belter pilot (basically the equivalent of our modern-day hot rodders who customize their cars and drive them fast and dangerously) tried to make a name for himself by hitting the ring at top speed. His ship got stuck in purple energy and is orbiting the nucleus, while he was splatted on impact.
• The Roci are free agents, they entered the ring to avoid getting hit by a missile from the Behemoth (Belter ship, formerly the Mormon ship). Slowly moving towards the nucleus.
• The Behemoth missile hit the ring at top speed, got stuck in purple energy, and is orbiting the nucleus.
• The Martians entered the ring slow to explore the ring and capture Holden, because they blame him for blowing up the UNN ship, and stealing the Roci. Somehow, they haven't caught the Roci yet.
• The Behemoth (Belters) entered the ring slow to not be left out of whatever the ring turns out to be.
• The Thomas Prince (UNN/Earth) entered the ring slow to explore the ring.

There are three different factions here, UNN/Earth, Mars, and the Belt. Two of them were very recently in a shooting war, and the Belters are trying to grab a seat at the big table. They don't trust each other, they each want to lay claim to whatever the ring turns out to be. No, it's probably not a good idea. But it is a good story.

[Winged Nike]

Quote

I actually watched that sequence a few times in order to figure it out, and to me, it looks like a huge amount of information was being downloaded to Holden;s brain. What those flashing images mean though, I have no idea. Any thoughts?

With the officer on the Thomas Prince talking about wormholes, to me it looked like when Holden connected the circuit, he connected this ring to a network of wormholes and a beam was sent back through one, maybe to the home planet of the protomolecule?  Like maybe the protomolecule's civilization has this network of wormholes and when they've built one ring, they send a little engineer drone on to find a place to build the next ring and connect it back to their wormhole network. I'm wondering if this season will end with a fleet of alien ships coming through the wormholes.

[marinw]

36 minutes ago, Winged Nike said:

Quote

I actually watched that sequence a few times in order to figure it out, and to me, it looks like a huge amount of information was being downloaded to Holden;s brain. What those flashing images mean though, I have no idea. Any thoughts?

With the officer on the Thomas Prince talking about wormholes, to me it looked like when Holden connected the circuit, he connected this ring to a network of wormholes and a beam was sent back through one, maybe to the home planet of the protomolecule?  Like maybe the protomolecule's civilization has this network of wormholes and when they've built one ring, they send a little engineer drone on to find a place to build the next ring and connect it back to their wormhole network.

But why did ProtoMiller need A Human to do that? Holden in Particular? Unless ProtoMiller is indeed a manifestaion of Holden's imagination, and Holden did the thing on his own.

[scottiB]

4 minutes ago, marinw said:

But why did ProtoMiller need A Human to do that? Holden in Particular? Unless ProtoMiller is indeed a manifestaion of Holden's imagination, and Holden did the thing on his own.

I believe that a physical entity needed make the complete the circuit. Proto-Miller couldn't do it on his own. Holden is P-Miller's tool for investigating.

Edited June 14, 2018 by scottiB
better word choice

[Winged Nike]

Quote

But why did ProtoMiller need A Human to do that? Holden in Particular? Unless ProtoMiller is indeed a manifestaion of Holden's imagination, and Holden did the thing on his own.

Maybe something in Holden's / any human's make up told the circuit where to connect to this Ring?

[WatchrTina]

17 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I could see why from Bobbie and the Martian's perspectives, Holden seemed off his rocker, but it still wasn't fun watching her pull the trigger. 

Yeah one of the recurring themes of this show is people getting into complicated situations and doing things they'd prefer NOT to do and having their loyalty called into question.  Bobbie, in particular, has been a victim of that trend, having spent most of season 2 in the company of Earthers and treated as pariah by her people.  So I can sympathize with her decision to follow orders -- even when those order require her to fire on a "friend."  I can sympathize, but I don't like it.

Edited June 15, 2018 by WatchrTina

[btp]

I am traveling on business this week and was forced to watch this episode on a hotel room TV with analog only service. Noisy, low resolution analog. And stretched out (as people often do in hotels) so as to fill the screen horizontally at the expense of maintaining the proper aspect ratio. Hence, everyone was stretched out such that they were short and fat. Even the Belters. Short and fat. And grainy. I do not recommend this as an optimal way to view an episode of this, or any, show.

But even with that obstacle, I enjoyed this episode quite a bit, especially that last 2 and a half or so Kubricky minutes. Yikes.

 

2 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

I am completely not interested in the adventures of Anna, Space Preacher. Apparently she is a neglectful mother, bad wife, inept counselor and poor judge of character. Her talents seem to be speech writing and smiling while frowning. I would rather have watched any other character instead of Anna's space memorial scene. 

The first sentence of Zack Handlen's review of this episode for AV Club is "There aren’t enough characters like Anna Volovodov on TV." He then rhadpsodizes for two and a half paragraphs about how great, fun, and important the character is, and how she reminds everyone of the importance of making connections, which he sees as a major theme of the episode.

I'm not bringing this up to be argumentative - my own feelings fall somewhere between your extreme and his. And I'm not going to go on again about grey areas and how this show is chock full of them, because that's pretty obvious. I mention this instead because I frequently marvel at how this story seems to speak so well to so many viewers, each person reacting somewhat differently to individual characters, plots, and even visual effects, yet seemingly agreeing on the whole that the show is excellent (or at least very good). That's a tough high wire act to pull off, and yet the people who make this show do it on a weekly basis. It's pretty impressive.

 

1 hour ago, marinw said:

But why did ProtoMiller need A Human to do that? Holden in Particular?

I think ProtoMiller is what he says he is, an agent of the protomolecule, which/who has been tasked with accessing the "locked records" aboard the station. Holden was chosen, as Miller said, because he has a ship. Miller is a tool that find things, Holden is a tool that goes places. Or whatever the exact quote was. As to why a human was needed to "complete the circuit," I initially wondered that myself - like, why doesn't the silly thing just grow those two pieces the rest of the way and complete its own damned circuit? But then I realized (I think) that Miller was speaking metaphorically. The object was not to complete the circuit as in connecting the top piece to the bottom piece. The object was to "unlock" the "records" and provide the means to receive them. I can postulate (fancy word for fanwank) here that, likely for security reasons, the information that Miller seeks has been "firewalled" in some sense; it is not accessible to the other parts of the automated system that the protomolecule as a whole sort of is. A living being (not necessary a human) was necessary to download the data. The circuit being completed was the circuit that delivers the historical record to a living host. Holden wasn't replacing a missing "fuse" in this scenario, he was more like an external hard drive, plugging in to receive a copy of the data in the system.

 

Yeah, for all my "defense" of Melba/Clarissa's misguided motives, I have to agree that she is doing little more than mustache twirling at this point. I know there's more going on there, but it needs to be shown right quick, else I have half a mind to space her myself. And I will yell at her, "forget  you, Melba! Forget you and your clusterfudged problems!" as she drifts off into the vacuum of space. Or protobubble.

Edited June 14, 2018 by btp

[showme]

10 minutes ago, btp said:

The object was to "unlock" the "records" and provide the means to receive them.

The object? or the objective?

[btp]

1 hour ago, showme said:

The object? or the objective?

Either?

Object
[noun ob-jikt, -jekt; verb uh b-jekt]

...

3. the end toward which effort or action is directed; goal; purpose: Profit is the object of business.

"Objective" works too.

[anamika]

14 hours ago, btp said:

 And I will yell at her, "forget  you, Melba! Forget you and your clusterfudged problems!" as she drifts off into the vacuum of space. Or protobubble.

 

Ha! The 'Forget you' has become a thing on Expanse reddit! Thanks Syfy. 

I find Melba annoying because she seems so single minded in her pursuit, not caring if she kills more people despite weeping crocodile tears for ages after killing them. The remorse of killing people does not make her do anything different but we still have to sit through scenes of her looking sad. And looks like she walks around carrying those strength pills in her mouth all the time. 

16 hours ago, CigarDoug said:

• The Martians entered the ring slow to explore the ring and capture Holden, because they blame him for blowing up the UNN ship, and stealing the Roci. Somehow, they haven't caught the Roci yet.

I don't think anyone can catch up with anyone as I think they are all moving at the same speed due to the speed limit of 18,000 kph. Could be why Naomi has also not been able to catch up to the Roci for the entire episode. Now that they have all been stopped maybe Naomi can make her way to the Roci next episode.

15 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Yeah one of the recurring themes of this show is people getting in to complicated situations and doing things they'd prefer NOT to do and having their loyalty called into question.  Bobbie, in particular, has been a victim of that trend, having spent most of season 2 in the company of Earthers and treated as pariah by her people.  So I can sympathize with her decision to follow orders -- even when those order require her to fire on a "friend."  I can sympathize, but I don't like it.

I am a bit disappointed in Bobbie for firing the gun because of where they were. They already know that fast things gets slowed down in this weird bue-green space. But they fire guns. Then this guy sees the bullets getting stopped and the unknown alien structure gearing up for attack and he makes it even worse by throwing a grenade. As Miller said, go in too fast and the room eats you. Show a little respect for the alien unknown and tread carefully. The same rules don't apply there and these guys know this. 

As for Holden - I mean, he was the first to take them through the ring successfully. The blue bubble in the middle opened up for him. So maybe they should have considered that there was more to it than him having a mental breakdown. BTW, I wonder what happened to the documentary crew Amos spaced. Are they still floating towards the Xuesen? Did they not mention that Holden was innocent?

Edited June 15, 2018 by anamika

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, btp said:

Yeah, for all my "defense" of Melba/Clarissa's misguided motives, I have to agree that she is doing little more than mustache twirling at this point. I know there's more going on there, but it needs to be shown right quick, else I have half a mind to space her myself. And I will yell at her, "forget  you, Melba! Forget you and your clusterfudged problems!" as she drifts off into the vacuum of space. Or protobubble.

What exactly is she supposed to do from her perspective at this point.  Her short-term goals seem to be 1) get on the Roci 2) Blow it, James Holden and the rest of his "evil scum" crew straight to Hell 3) Live through all that to show Daddy she really is his girl after all.  Oh, and 0) don't get caught/jailed/spaced before doing all that other stuff.  Trying to kill Tilly seemed to be in service of goal 0.

[btp]

30 minutes ago, johntfs said:

What exactly is she supposed to do from her perspective at this point.  Her short-term goals seem to be 1) get on the Roci 2) Blow it, James Holden and the rest of his "evil scum" crew straight to Hell 3) Live through all that to show Daddy she really is his girl after all.  Oh, and 0) don't get caught/jailed/spaced before doing all that other stuff.  Trying to kill Tilly seemed to be in service of goal 0.

I have no quarrel with how Melba is executing her plan, such as it is. I just think, from a storytelling perspective, we need a better view of her thinking, of why she holds James Holden, in particular, responsible for her father's demise. That honor would seem, to me, to go to Chrisjen Avasarala, the person who pursued Papa Mau initially and, presumably, had him arrested and prosecuted. Holden just happened to be the guy who picked him up. If you wanted to avenge the person who ruined your family, wouldn't you focus on the person who actually directed that operation, not the street cop who cuffed him and brought him in? I can understand that Holden is getting a lot of credit for being the big hero, and so in some sense he is the "face" of the entire operation, but it's not like Chrisjen is some sort of shrinking violet in this matter. I'm sure she spoke out forcefully, as she did all along.

I just feel like her hatred of Holden above all others is, lacking any further explanation, a little over the top, and I'd like to see the logic (even if it's flawed) behind it. Otherwise, she's just angy, and fixated on an inexplicable target. I have to believe there's more to it than that. I'd like the writers to show me.

Edited June 14, 2018 by btp
Fix grammar so as to sound less like Jar-Jar Binks

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

When Holden went on the proto-vision did anyone else have a flash-back to 2001: a Space Odyssey with a dash of American Gods (the floating nekkid in space bit) thrown in for seasoning?

Yes. I thought it was a decent homage to 2001 and Keir Dullea. And I can see the American Gods part too. Way trippy.

[johntfs]

24 minutes ago, btp said:

I'm have no quarrel with how Melba is executing her plan, such as it is. I just think, from a storytelling perspective, we need a better view of her thinking, of why she holds James Holden, in particular, responsible for her father's demise. That honor would seem, to me, to go to Chrisjen Avasarala, the person who pursued Papa Mau initially and, presumably, had him arrested and prosecuted. Holden just happened to be the guy who picked him up. If you wanted to avenge the person who ruined your family, wouldn't you focus on the person who actually directed that operation, not the street cop who cuffed him and brought him in? I can understand that Holden is getting a lot of credit for being the big hero, and so in some sense he is the "face" of the entire operation, but it's not like Chrisjen is some sort of shrinking violet in this matter. I'm sure she spoke out forcefully, as she did all along.

I just feel like her hatred of Holden above all others is, lacking any further explanation, a little over the top, and I'd like to see the logic (even if it's flawed) behind it. Otherwise, she's just angy, and fixated on an inexplicable target. I have to believe there's more to it than that. I'd like the writers to show me.

I think Melba has the "right" target in mind.  I'd need to do a full re-watch to be sure, but as I recall, Holden logged the initial distress signal.  Holden made the (false) announcement that Martian stealth ships had attacked his ship.  Holden got the Roci crew to hunt for the proto-molecule (and found the sample that went to Fred Johnson).  Holden brought everyone to Eros.  Holden led the attack where they captured Mao's scientist.  Holden had the idea to use the then Navou to try to destroy Eros, which started its approach to Earth and revealed the proto-molecule to Avasarala.  Holden continued pursuing the proto-molecule to Ganymeade and finally, with Avasarala and Bobbie along for the ride, Holden brought the Roci to Io where he personally took Mao into custody for his many crimes.

As proto-Miller noted, Holden has been at the center of this stuff since the beginning.  Assuming most of the above came out (and it likely did, since Holden was being celebrated as a hero), it's completely understandable that Melba would blame Holden for her father's (and family's) downfall.

Edited June 14, 2018 by johntfs

[Netfoot]

15 hours ago, marinw said:

Ashford must have decided to keep the scars.

Sometimes the treatment is such that you'd rather not go through it.

[tennisgurl]

Clarissa might be sympathetic, with her massive daddy issues, and her life falling apart, except she clearly has no problem murdering innocent people, screwing peoples lives up, and quite possibly starting a full on war that will kill countless more people, all to screw with one guy. A guy who’s only crime was helping to put away her obviously evil father! I hope she gets shoved out an airlock real soon, preferably without a space suit. 

[CigarDoug]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

Me: The Martians entered the ring slow to explore the ring and capture Holden, because they blame him for blowing up the UNN ship, and stealing the Roci. Somehow, they haven't caught the Roci yet.

I don't think anyone can catch up with anyone as I think they are all moving at the same speed due to the speed limit of 18 kph. Could be why Naomi has also not been able to catch up to the Roci for the entire episode. Now that they have all been stopped maybe Naomi can make her way to the Roci next episode.

The Roci crew realized in the previous episode that they can't go fast, and if they hit the side of this pocket dimension, they will disappear (not blow up, just dissolve) just like the probe sent by the Martian ship. The pocket dimension is not that big, so they discussed how they were going to have to turn at some point to avoid hitting the far wall. Now, they may not BE there yet. It's not clear where the nucleus is, in the middle or at the far end of the dimension. It may be, they were all so close to the nucleus that both the Martian ship and the Roci stopped, and the Martian ship launched the landing craft, which caught up to Holden fairly quickly. But the Behemoth and Naomi are still close to the ring and have a way to go.

[johntfs]

47 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Clarissa might be sympathetic, with her massive daddy issues, and her life falling apart, except she clearly has no problem murdering innocent people, screwing peoples lives up, and quite possibly starting a full on war that will kill countless more people, all to screw with one guy. A guy who’s only crime was helping to put away her obviously evil father! I hope she gets shoved out an airlock real soon, preferably without a space suit. 

I don't know if that was Holden's only crime.  I do recall him destroying a ship filled with charity doctors because he thought it was possible that one or more of them might be infected with the proto-molecule infesting Eros.

That said, I find I feel a bit sorry for Melba/Clarissa.  I understand why she's doing the crazy/evil things that she's doing, but they're still crazy/evil things.  I kind of wonder what will/may happen if she actually does reach the Roci, gets caught up in the weirdness surrounding the Roci and comes to realize that, yeah, Daddy really is an evil piece of shit after all.

[showme]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

I don't know if that was Holden's only crime.  I do recall him destroying a ship filled with charity doctors because he thought it was possible that one or more of them might be infected with the proto-molecule infesting Eros.

Maybe you remember wrong?

[ACW]

3 hours ago, showme said:

Maybe you remember wrong?

Nope, that happened (though we never found out if the ship was genuine).

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheExpanse/comments/7x6lo1/s2e4_spoilers_why_does_holden_do_what_he_does/

[tennisgurl]

5 hours ago, johntfs said:

I don't know if that was Holden's only crime.  I do recall him destroying a ship filled with charity doctors because he thought it was possible that one or more of them might be infected with the proto-molecule infesting Eros.

 

Yeah, that was definitely his most morally questionable action in the show so far, that I can think of anyway. If Clarissa was actually a loved one of someone who died on that ship, and thats why she wanted revenge, I would have more sympathy for her. Holden thought he was acting in the greater good, and you can debate whether or not he was right, but if someone wanted to go at him for that, I would get it. I still would want her stopped, but I would feel more for her. Clarissa is trying to avenge her totally evil father, who is in jail because of his own actions. And is willing to put the whole system in danger for revenge on a guy who was an asshole anyway and totally deserved everything he got.

[raven]

12 hours ago, scottiB said:

Holden is P-Miller's tool for investigating.

Yup, Miller calls Holden "a fancy hand terminal with a lot buttons" (to which Holden says "thanks", heh).  Of course Miller, also calls Holden an amoeba and a monkey to Miller's Mozart. 

58 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

If Clarissa was actually a loved one of someone who died on that ship, and thats why she wanted revenge, I would have more sympathy for her.

This is a good point.  It is hard to feel sorry for Clarissa because she lost her privileged life; I know that's NOT why she's angry at Holden, she's angry because of her father's downfall.   She is obsessive but seems psychologically sound and this is obviously a scenario that she planned for a while.   The interesting thing is that she does feel remorse over killing Ren, someone she barely knew so there's some part of her that has empathy, sympathy, all of that.  I think she was someone who was distant from a lot of people and thus didn't really consider them "real"; unlike Julie, who put herself front and center.  So Clarissa doesn't consider the people killed on the ship she blew up because she didn't see them but killing Ren was more personal so he haunts her. 

It's also possible that Clarissa is not meant to be sympathetic; rather, she's a match thrown into a situation that could light up at any moment.

I like the concept of Anna and Elizabeth Mitchell is doing her usual decent performance but I wonder if the problem is the EM casting.  I don't see an "Anna" character to connect with so much as I see EM, the actress.   I kinda see the point talked about in the AV Club review about Anna being about human connections but right now she's only really connecting with Tilly; she brushed off the guy who ultimately shot himself and I think the show would have been better served to show her counseling him or something.

[anamika]

7 hours ago, showme said:

Maybe you remember wrong?

Well,  they could never find out if the ship crew was infected because the ship refused to stop despite repeated requests to do so. The Roci crew knew that these guys had been inside Eros and if they carried the protomolecule like Julie to another planet, millions could perish. Holden repeatedly asked the ship crew to stop and be boarded so that they could check - the crew refused and kept moving beyond range and Holden fired.

Don't see what else Holden could have done there. Let them go to possibly infect other planets? Chase after them and abandon this mission to destroy Eros and save lives? It was certainly not as simple as Holden willy nilly destroying a charity doctor ship without cause and no justification for Clarissa Mao's witch hunt. Clarissa has just latched on to a target because she feels that her daddy did not love her more than Julie and wants revenge on his behalf. 

[showme]

1 hour ago, raven said:

The interesting thing is that she does feel remorse over killing Ren, someone she barely knew so there's some part of her that has empathy, sympathy, all of that.

Spoiler

No, she doesn't feel remorse. Those are not tears, just a chemical reaction or side effects of her enhancement.

[Clanstarling]

On 6/13/2018 at 7:13 PM, raven said:

On 6/13/2018 at 7:01 PM, marinw said:

We know that 23rd medicine is pretty advanced, so Ashford must have decided to keep the scars.

Ashford is definitely the type to not care about his scars aesthetically.  They also show anyone he meets that he's a tough bastard. 

On the other hand, Belters might not have access to the advanced medicine. Costs money.

On 6/13/2018 at 7:16 PM, WatchrTina said:

• I love the fact that Drummer can read Ashford like a cheap novel but I find myself unendingly annoyed by the low-simmering threat he represents to Drummer's command.  Oh and Diogo can fuck right off as well.
• I wonder where Monica and Creepy Blind Dude are right now?

Not being much of a strategist myself, I appreciated Drummer laying out Ashford's techniques and motives. I still remember Diogo when I sort of liked him, but boy. Not now.

I was wondering where Monica and Creepy Blind Dude are too.

On 6/13/2018 at 7:45 PM, WatchrTina said:

I can't WAIT to see what is going to happen in the bubble next . . . so long as it ends with our central four back on the Roci.  (Bobbie can come for visit too but I'd rather she make her way over to the earth ship and kill Clarissa a lot.)

I hadn't thought about Bobbi and Clarissa, but now that you've put that thought into my head, I want it very much.
 

14 hours ago, CigarDoug said:

Not sure if you are being rhetorical, but:

• Maneo, a Belter pilot (basically the equivalent of our modern-day hot rodders who customize their cars and drive them fast and dangerously) tried to make a name for himself by hitting the ring at top speed. His ship got stuck in purple energy and is orbiting the nucleus, while he was splatted on impact.
• The Roci are free agents, they entered the ring to avoid getting hit by a missile from the Behemoth (Belter ship, formerly the Mormon ship). Slowly moving towards the nucleus.
• The Behemoth missile hit the ring at top speed, got stuck in purple energy, and is orbiting the nucleus.
• The Martians entered the ring slow to explore the ring and capture Holden, because they blame him for blowing up the UNN ship, and stealing the Roci. Somehow, they haven't caught the Roci yet.
• The Behemoth (Belters) entered the ring slow to not be left out of whatever the ring turns out to be.
• The Thomas Prince (UNN/Earth) entered the ring slow to explore the ring.

There are three different factions here, UNN/Earth, Mars, and the Belt. Two of them were very recently in a shooting war, and the Belters are trying to grab a seat at the big table. They don't trust each other, they each want to lay claim to whatever the ring turns out to be. No, it's probably not a good idea. But it is a good story.

IIRC, that wasn't the Behemoth's missile - they had a misfire or something. Don't quite remember whose it was though
We cut cable TV this week - I didn't worry about the Expanse because I thought I could watch it online at Syfy. But I thought wrong. I was pretty disappointed (this being my favorite show and all). But then I discovered Prime Video has the current season (for a price). Cutting costs or not, I figure I can shell out the episode costs for the remainder of the season. Whew!

[WildPlum]

I think Holden putting his hand in there did complete the circuit and "access the Archives." Now he has some of that in his head and it can probably manipulate him the same way Miller can.

I still say that Drummer doesn't have that long as a living character on this show and her read of Ashford is exactly what is going to happen.

How does Naomi plan to intercept the Roci before the Mars ship, which is ahead of her, does? 

[JZL]

The trippy scene at the end reminded me of Altered States.  The Miller-Holden-floating-to-the-station scene reminded me of The Dude's doped up White Russian sequence in The Big Lebowski.

We've had a bare Naomi and now a bare Holden.  Is it Bobbie's turn?

[Netfoot]

7 minutes ago, JZL said:

Is it Bobbie's turn?

Oooo!

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, showme said:

  Hide contents

Spoiler

No, she doesn't feel remorse. Those are not tears, just a chemical reaction or side effects of her enhancement.

 

Regardless of the above I think Clarissa does feel remorse, or at least guilt, over what she did to Ren.  Considered how weirdly protective she got when the others started digging into his possessions.

I suppose one reason I'm as willing to sympathize with Clarissa as I am is because she is still capable of feeling guilt and knowing that she really isn't the hero of this story.  Contrast that with Mao, Strickland, Anderson Dawes and even Cotyer, who murdered an innocent man for the "crime" of having a bad poker face.

[meira.hand]

19 hours ago, btp said:

I just feel like her hatred of Holden above all others is, lacking any further explanation, a little over the top, and I'd like to see the logic (even if it's flawed) behind it. Otherwise, she's just angy, and fixated on an inexplicable target. I have to believe there's more to it than that. I'd like the writers to show me.

 

10 hours ago, raven said:

It's also possible that Clarissa is not meant to be sympathetic; rather, she's a match thrown into a situation that could light up at any moment.

Exactly. We already know the basic backstory of Clarissa's fixation on making her father proud of her. Beyond that she is really more of a plot device, adding to the chaos and danger of too many players in this extremely complex and dangerous situation (like a lone gunman changing history). She does not bring any relevant social, psychological or philosophical issues to the table and so getting deeper into her motivation seems superfluous.

[Haleth]

Melba/Clarissa may hand-wave all the deaths on Eros and the other settlements as being for the greater good and see her father as a martyr, but is she aware that her sister was a victim too?  Does she know the circumstances of Julie's death or that Julie was trying to stop dad?  (I haven't seen this episode yet so forgive me if this came up.)