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ElectricBoogaloo

S05.02: A Titanic Problem

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Well, I salute Charles for that man-up; finally telling his ex what the audience already knew: not gonna happen.

Also: super-grateful that Josh & Liza didn't succumb to Comfort Sex.  I like the character and I don't want him back in love with her.

Sutton looked terrific!  Maybe Charles knowing the truth is having some weird karmic/unconscious effect on Liza (is that possible?).

Maggie's back, hooray.  What a great new part-time job.  Now she's moved from acrylics to performance art.

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Yay! The impotent constipated man baby manages to unclench long enough to tell Pauline how he feels. Double yay! Jennifer Westfeldt decided to slow down on her forehead botox--it moves now, perfect for weird cry face. However, the impotent constipated man baby is likely playing a variation of the pronoun game with lawyer Bob (Grant Shaud) about this lying woman he's in love with. Also Charles didn't almost destroy his family for Liza. His marriage was in a shambles because of, mostly, Pauline and his inability to act like adults and talk to each other, which will likely torpedo his chances with Liza. So fuck Charles forever.

In contrast, Josh is a weepy mess over his bullshit marriage to Claire Clare Contrivance. Turns out it's over already. Maybe they should have gone for the fiancee Visa as advocated by nearly everyone in the comments during last season's finale.

Literally, Charles needs to talk to Liza or have an on the record conversation with Bob as his attorney without booze about the many fucked up intricacies of the Liza situation.

I really kind of hope that Liza comes clean first because fuck Charles. I hope she comes clean and has half of "Younger" already written.

I liked Maggie's plot better when it was on Difficult People and Julie and Billy were doing it. It's too bad Difficult People was canceled because Julie and Billy would probably build an entire episode around Darren Star stealing from them. 

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A minor pet peeve...but Liza with all her love of literature and I believe an English Major in University, says that Ada Lovelace was the only daughter of Lord Bryon... I mean what was Allegra then? Do better, Liza! Perhaps she meant legitimate daughter but still.

 

Also, I cannot stand Charles and his moping. I really do not care who Liza ends up with but I have never thought he was an amazing catch.

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I wonder when Charles' lawyer is going to connect the dots and realize that Liza is the woman Charles told him about.  That should be interesting if he ends up being a go-between of sorts.  But I have to nitpick about the "advice" he gave Charles about not being able to fire Liza "for her age".  If he fired her, it wouldn't be for her age, it would be for lying about her age.  And that is a very different reason that I don't think would be construed as age discrimination.  That argument wouldn't hold up in court because the issue is she LIED about something important, not because she was older.  It's exceedingly difficult to prove age discrimination anyway and if Charles has a legitimate reason to fire her that is not about her age but about her misrepresenting herself, that's another story altogether.

I have always been a Charles shipper but boy, what a stiff they make his character.  It's getting on my nerves now. 

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3 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I wonder when Charles' lawyer is going to connect the dots and realize that Liza is the woman Charles told him about.  That should be interesting if he ends up being a go-between of sorts.  But I have to nitpick about the "advice" he gave Charles about not being able to fire Liza "for her age".  If he fired her, it wouldn't be for her age, it would be for lying about her age.  And that is a very different reason that I don't think would be construed as age discrimination.  That argument wouldn't hold up in court because the issue is she LIED about something important, not because she was older.  It's exceedingly difficult to prove age discrimination anyway and if Charles has a legitimate reason to fire her that is not about her age but about her misrepresenting herself, that's another story altogether.

I have always been a Charles shipper but boy, what a stiff they make his character.  It's getting on my nerves now. 

I thought the exact same thing. She lied on her resume and application for the job which is fraud.  But maybe the lawyer's advice about Charles kissing Liza and how inappropriate that was and could lead to another scandal was what gave Charles pause. He could fire her, but she could cause problems for him and his company.

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5 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I wonder when Charles' lawyer is going to connect the dots and realize that Liza is the woman Charles told him about.  That should be interesting if he ends up being a go-between of sorts.  But I have to nitpick about the "advice" he gave Charles about not being able to fire Liza "for her age".  If he fired her, it wouldn't be for her age, it would be for lying about her age.  And that is a very different reason that I don't think would be construed as age discrimination.  That argument wouldn't hold up in court because the issue is she LIED about something important, not because she was older.  It's exceedingly difficult to prove age discrimination anyway and if Charles has a legitimate reason to fire her that is not about her age but about her misrepresenting herself, that's another story altogether.

Doesn’t matter. The fact is, she lied about her age. The facts also are, she’s running the imprint that’s saving his company, and he’s kissed her and crossed personal boundaries with her. Add in that she lied because her 40-something self couldn’t get hired on the same merits that her 26 year old self did, and oh boy, would Slate and Jezebel et al have a field day turning Empirical into the publishing world’s version of Big Pharma, right on the heels of the Edward LL Moore scandal. Not to mention, the other publishing houses would be in a feeding frenzy to snap her up. 

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WTF was Pauline wearing at the beginning of the episode? It looked like a cross between pajamas and the most unflattering mom jeans ever.

Once again, we are supposed to believe that Liza knows nothing about the world in 2018 (or 2016 or whatever the fuck year we're supposed to believe that they are in now on the show). She uses IG but doesn't know what DMs are? Do the writers want us to think that she's a complete moron? Or are we supposed to believe that Kelsey and Molly have never shared other people's IG posts with Liza in DMs? I just can't with this idiotic "Liza is too old to get technology" stuff.

Dude, the company is late with payroll? I don't know what the laws in New York are, but I remember someone in HR (at my company in California) said that at her old job, they couldn't make payroll and the authorities chained the doors shut. I don't remember the details, but I guess if you can't pay your employees within X amount of time, they can close you down.

When Charles was looking through the info LL Moore's investigators dug up on Liza, one article said that she got married in 1996 and then there was a photo of her coaching an under 10 soccer team which I initially assumed was her daughter's until I realized that the soccer picture said 1997.

When one of the OMG things on Charles' list about Liza is that "she has been married," I just rolled my eyes. So have you, you fucking hypocrite. She's your employee but she's not required to disclose her marital status to you. His entire pity party conversation with his lawyer friend annoyed me, particularly when he said he was ready to break up his family for Liza. Uh, no, dude. That's not what happened at all. Your wife abandoned you and your children before you even met Liza. Pauline already broke up your family.

I wish I could care about Josh's broken heart, but I'm just glad that we don't have to see Claire anymore!

Edited by ElectricBoogaloo
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1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

 

Dude, the company is late with payroll? I don't know what the laws in New York are, but I remember someone in HR (at my company in California) said that at her old job, they couldn't make payroll and the authorities chained the doors shut. I don't remember the details, but I guess if you can't pay your employees within X amount of time, they can close you down.

 

Payroll frequency requirements vary from state to state. I believe in New York for office workers it's semi-monthly...meaning that employees must be paid at a minimum of semi-monthly, but employers can chose weekly or bi-weekly. 

What drives me crazy is the age. New employees have to complete an I-9 to show eligibility to work in the United States. With this form you have to provide documentation such as a passport (which lists your date of birth) or a driver's license or state ID (which again would list your date of birth). There are some other forms that are rarely uses but allowed like a voter registration card which doesn't list your date of birth. But seriously...

I work in HR and I have to overlook the age thing and remind myself it's just TV :)

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2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

WTF was Pauline wearing at the beginning of the episode? It looked like a cross between pajamas and the most unflattering mom jeans ever.

This...a thousand times!

Also, are the writers trying to make us hate Charles?  The fact that his disappointment about Liza clouded his judgment so much that he apparently wasn't going to take the company-saving deal that Liza arranged, and it took Diana's mentioning of selling her condo before he snapped out of it, has actually made me do a 180, and now I want her and Josh back together, because he clearly can't even think clearly enough to make proper business decisions let alone personal ones.  The approach that the writers have taken, of the constant will-they-or-won't-they of the Liza/Charles relationship, has backfired with me, because I keep thinking that IRL they would have had a real conversation at some point, and would either be doing what they could to actually be together or deciding not to pursue anything at all.  So now I'm all-in for Liza and Josh (I think...at least at this point)!  

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11 hours ago, voiceover said:

Also: super-grateful that Josh & Liza didn't succumb to Comfort Sex.  I like the character and I don't want him back in love with her.

That remains to be seen. 

9 hours ago, Empress Josephine said:

Also, I cannot stand Charles and his moping.

And Josh and his moping. These two need to man up. I'm sick of them both. 

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3 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

Also, are the writers trying to make us hate Charles?  The fact that his disappointment about Liza clouded his judgment so much that he apparently wasn't going to take the company-saving deal that Liza arranged, and it took Diana's mentioning of selling her condo before he snapped out of it, has actually made me do a 180, and now I want her and Josh back together, because he clearly can't even think clearly enough to make proper business decisions let alone personal ones.  The approach that the writers have taken, of the constant will-they-or-won't-they of the Liza/Charles relationship, has backfired with me, because I keep thinking that IRL they would have had a real conversation at some point, and would either be doing what they could to actually be together or deciding not to pursue anything at all.  So now I'm all-in for Liza and Josh (I think...at least at this point)!  

I agree about Charles! I am disliking the way he is handling the news about Liza. I understand him questioning her motives, but it's not like she came in aggressively trying to take Diana's position. She has worked hard to make a career for herself by starting at the bottom. 

I have always liked Josh and Liza together. That just might be the 40 year old me wanting to explore my inner cougar. Don't tell my hubby!

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5 hours ago, TGinKY said:

I thought the exact same thing. She lied on her resume and application for the job which is fraud.  But maybe the lawyer's advice about Charles kissing Liza and how inappropriate that was and could lead to another scandal was what gave Charles pause. He could fire her, but she could cause problems for him and his company.

Yes, that's the real reason firing Liza could be problematic for Charles - if she chose to go public with a charge of inappropriate behavior.  But age discrimination?  No.

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

WTF was Pauline wearing at the beginning of the episode? It looked like a cross between pajamas and the most unflattering mom jeans ever.

Did anyone notice some of the stuff Diana was wearing?  That bracelet!!!  Her jewelry continues to get more gigantic every season.  I really think it's like a secret running joke of the show by now.  The strange thing is that it doesn't look as bad as it might.  It's always in context with her outfit, just 20 times bigger than it probably should be, LOL.

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31 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Did anyone notice some of the stuff Diana was wearing?  That bracelet!!!  Her jewelry continues to get more gigantic every season.  I really think it's like a secret running joke of the show by now.  The strange thing is that it doesn't look as bad as it might.  It's always in context with her outfit, just 20 times bigger than it probably should be, LOL.

I KNOW. That bracelet was GIGANTIC. I died laughing when I saw it. Miriam Shor is a genius to carry all that stuff without looking absurd or as if she's wearing a costume.

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Pauline: David Remnick called my writing 'sinewy'! Can you believe it?! Why, this is the best night of my...

Charles: I'm dumping you.

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7 hours ago, bichonblitz said:
17 hours ago, Empress Josephine said:

Also, I cannot stand Charles and his moping.

And Josh and his moping. These two need to man up. I'm sick of them both. 

These are two of saddest male romantic leads in prime time.  Given, I'm a straight male, but I don't see any characteristic of Charles "Furrowed Brow/Clenched Expression" that any woman would find even vaguely appealing.  Dude always looks like he's frustrated that the Milk of Magnesia hasn't worked yet.  And Baby-Boy Josh really does need to grow up/man the fuck up.

Interestingly enough, I recently can across a great article on Sex and the City's 20th anniversary.  The author makes a very insightful argument on how most of the (straight) male romantic leads on Darren Star shows basically suck https://nypost.com/2018/06/03/how-sex-and-the-city-betrayed-the-sisterhood/  Finally understand now why I always despised Mr. Big.

Maggie made this episode for me, nice to have her back!

Edited by Winston Wolfe
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10 hours ago, kelekins said:

hat drives me crazy is the age. New employees have to complete an I-9 to show eligibility to work in the United States. With this form you have to provide documentation such as a passport (which lists your date of birth) or a driver's license or state ID (which again would list your date of birth). There are some other forms that are rarely uses but allowed like a voter registration card which doesn't list your date of birth. But seriously...

Didn't Liza have fake IDs made, way in the beginning of the show? 

I agree that she'd be liable for falsifying that, but the publicity hit that Empirical would take in terms of her competence as an "unemployable" forty something and sexual history with Charles (and even potentially Moore, since she was an employee when he came on to her) would be way worse.

I am suspicious that this "Charles knows but won't tell Liza" scenario will last the entire freaking season, given how this show loves to stretch out the Liza reveals. I hope I'm wrong. I am apparently one of the few who likes Charles here! But I do wish he would just be an adult and sit down to talk to her about what he found out. I did laugh every time he watched her and noticed her not-quite-20 foibles.

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1 hour ago, Moxie Cat said:

I am suspicious that this "Charles knows but won't tell Liza" scenario will last the entire freaking season, given how this show loves to stretch out the Liza reveals. I hope I'm wrong. I am apparently one of the few who likes Charles here! But I do wish he would just be an adult and sit down to talk to her about what he found out.

I like Charles too, but he's been weird and impotent about Liza ever since last season. Everyone wishes he would just talk to her. He was under the misapprehension that she went to Ireland for Josh in a romantic way, but when she came back a couple of days later he couldn't just talk to her. She's back for a couple of weeks and he doesn't say boo to her. He's an emotional toddler.

Edited by HunterHunted
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Did anyone notice some of the stuff Diana was wearing?  That bracelet!!!  Her jewelry continues to get more gigantic every season.  I really think it's like a secret running joke of the show by now.  The strange thing is that it doesn't look as bad as it might.  It's always in context with her outfit, just 20 times bigger than it probably should be, LOL.

Is it a secret running joke?  I'm pretty sure Miriam Shor has talked a lot about Diana's statement jewelry in interviews. 

Quote

When one of the OMG things on Charles' list about Liza is that "she has been married," I just rolled my eyes. So have you, you fucking hypocrite. She's your employee but she's not required to disclose her marital status to you. His entire pity party conversation with his lawyer friend annoyed me, particularly when he said he was ready to break up his family for Liza. Uh, no, dude. That's not what happened at all. Your wife abandoned you and your children before you even met Liza. Pauline already broke up your family.

I took Charles' comment as him saying he would have considered giving Pauline a chance, but did not do so because of his feelings for Liza.  As for the marriage note on his list, I thought he viewed it as just another Liza lie.  He wasn't saying "she's damaged goods for being divorced," but he viewed it as just another thing that Liza had kept from him. 

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3 hours ago, Moxie Cat said:

I did laugh every time he watched her and noticed her not-quite-20 foibles.

I thought those were really well done. I'm on board for him making meaningful but vague comments for a while, but a whole season? Ugh.

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I was a bit disappointed with Charles during this episode, but I can't put my finger on whether it was the acting or the editing whenever he was short with Liza. The bar scene with his attourney friend was weird. Maybe we it was because we didn't see much of their personal interactions, but was Charles' ex wife approach to getting back together purey based on guilt?

Firing Liza? The person who keeps both companies afloat? From the Witherspoon-deal, Marriage Vacation, the poodle book and realising Moore wrote that orgasm book ...

Loved Lauren meeting Diana. Loved Diana's gigantic jewellery - it's so over the top, yet Miriam Shor makes it look strong and classy. Hated the revelations about Claire (what a waste of time).

Why would you Insta DM someone you know really well and usually communicate on other channels with (WhatsApp) - am I getting old??

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This BTS video on the emergence of "Bitchy Charles" this episode is pretty funny. 

5 hours ago, Moxie Cat said:

I did laugh every time he watched her and noticed her not-quite-20 foibles.

His face transitioning from "Liza's a hip young person who wears zany fashionable outfits" to "Oh shit, Liza's just a middle aged woman throwing random wacky crap together because she has no idea" was great. 

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15 hours ago, Aulty said:

Firing Liza? The person who keeps both companies afloat? From the Witherspoon-deal, Marriage Vacation, the poodle book and realising Moore wrote that orgasm book ...

Exactly. She's done so many things to help the company, and not in a "I volunteered to help out at the company picnic" kind of way. The things that she has done for the company have had a significant financial impact so it would be really dumb to get rid of her.

I thought that DMing Reese Witherspoon was smart because worst case scenario, nothing comes of it, but best case scenario, you make a deal with Reese Witherspoon! I was furious that Charles initially brushed off the idea of the proposed partnership simply because he was mad at Liza. I was like fine, if you want to turn down (1) money which your company needs very badly right now (2) a partnership with a celebrity who just spiked your book sales and (3) potential development deals to turn your future books into movies or tv shows (and Reese Witherspoon has a pretty successful track record with that - some of the books she has turned into movies/tv shows include Wild, Gone Girl, and Big Little Lies) which could end up generating even more money for the company down the line just because you're upset with Liza then you're an even bigger idiot than I previously thought. I'm glad he finally came to his senses when Diana mentioned selling her place. Being in charge of a company means doing what's best for the company, not being spiteful and shooting yourself in the foot because your feelings were hurt.

Edited by ElectricBoogaloo
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7 hours ago, retrograde said:

This BTS video on the emergence of "Bitchy Charles" this episode is pretty funny. 

His face transitioning from "Liza's a hip young person who wears zany fashionable outfits" to "Oh shit, Liza's just a middle aged woman throwing random wacky crap together because she has no idea" was great. 

This was my favorite thing about the episode, and I think Peter Hermann played it perfectly. You could see him almost literally seeing her through different eyes. Same Liza, totally different understanding of her. I can even deal with his current bitchiness toward Liza (the revelation is still new, and he’s still reeling), as long as this phase passes fairly quickly. He’s a grown man with a business to run, and he needs to start making some big decisions sooner rather than later. I’m guessing that his finally shutting Pauline down is the start of that process. We’ll see.

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10 hours ago, retrograde said:

His face transitioning from "Liza's a hip young person who wears zany fashionable outfits" to "Oh shit, Liza's just a middle aged woman throwing random wacky crap together because she has no idea" was great. 

That's how I look at most of the outfits on this show (as a middle aged chick myself!) but unfortunately I suspect that Patricia Field has put these outfits together ON PURPOSE. Never been a fan of most of what Kelsey wears either. That pink blouse? Yeesh.

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I, too, am not really looking forward to them dragging out Charles telling Liza he knows her secret. While I like both love interests, I want to see Liza with Charles. I think we could use an episode where we are reminded why they are MFEO!

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I finally caught up to this series after binge-watching S4. I still love this. It's not the most well-written series out there but it's good fluff.

It does seem though that the writers seem a bit lost towards the last half of S4 towards the beginning of this season. Having Josh get married and then rid of his wife 2 episodes in? Not good writing. 

I still can't get over how clunky Marriage Vacation sounds as a book title. Maybe the book is that good, but it's driving me crazy how most people are going bananas (in a good way) over the title. It just doesn't have the pop to me, or something that would immediately scream potential best-seller. I guess this is one of those times to not judge a book by its cover, or by its title. 

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Once again, we are supposed to believe that Liza knows nothing about the world in 2018 (or 2016 or whatever the fuck year we're supposed to believe that they are in now on the show). She uses IG but doesn't know what DMs are?

actually, speaking as a 40-year-old who uses Instagram-- I had no idea you could DM people from there, so.. there's some anecdotal evidence. I work with a 27-year-old and we constantly joke about how clueless I am about technology ME: you kids and your damn snappy chats!  HER:  I think you would like snappychat grandma! (and scene)

 

That being said-- I call shenanigans on the LL Moore thing already impacting Empiracles financials to the point where payroll is impacted. That seems to suggest the company is terribly run.  (I mean, Amazon drops the book and Charles can't meet payroll within, what? a week or two?

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On 6/13/2018 at 6:50 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Once again, we are supposed to believe that Liza knows nothing about the world in 2018 (or 2016 or whatever the fuck year we're supposed to believe that they are in now on the show). She uses IG but doesn't know what DMs are?

I’m Liza’s age, I use Instagram, and I don’t know what DMs are. I don’t even know what that stands for. 

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I hate how they’re hyping Marriage Vacation up to be the next darling of modern literature, but everything from the design, to the premise, to the passages we’ve heard make it sound like the bored housewife type of airplane and beach reads. I read those books, so I’m certainly not criticizing their existence or saying they can’t be well written, I just don’t see Pauline as Meg Wolitzer, more like Janet Evanovich. 

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1 hour ago, sacrebleu said:

I call shenanigans on the LL Moore thing already impacting Empiracles financials to the point where payroll is impacted. That seems to suggest the company is terribly run.

Yeah, even if Amazon pulled all the books, there would be some income still to come. Empirical has been in trouble for a while, though, so maybe this was just the death blow. That doesn’t excuse Charles being a jerk about Liza’s Reese Witherspoon deal.

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54 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

That doesn’t excuse Charles being a jerk about Liza’s Reese Witherspoon deal.

I hated that part too, but Charles may be buying into the idea that she is a con artist, or worse, some type of sociopathic liar. He's wondering if he can trust her representing the company in any way. Obviously, he should just confront her and talk about it, but I can't fault him for being suspicious of her motives - or the fact that she's been lying for so long and so intricately.

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19 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Is it a secret running joke?  I'm pretty sure Miriam Shor has talked a lot about Diana's statement jewelry in interviews. 

I don't tend to read too many interviews, I just watch the show. 

I think the jewelry is funnier without hearing any background on it anyway.

Edited by Yeah No

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15 hours ago, retrograde said:

This BTS video on the emergence of "Bitchy Charles" this episode is pretty funny. 

His face transitioning from "Liza's a hip young person who wears zany fashionable outfits" to "Oh shit, Liza's just a middle aged woman throwing random wacky crap together because she has no idea" was great. 

Hah, I took it as, "So this is how a middle aged woman dresses to convince the world she's younger than she is", but I like your explanation better!

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1 hour ago, Moxie Cat said:

I hated that part too, but Charles may be buying into the idea that she is a con artist, or worse, some type of sociopathic liar. He's wondering if he can trust her representing the company in any way. Obviously, he should just confront her and talk about it, but I can't fault him for being suspicious of her motives - or the fact that she's been lying for so long and so intricately.

She needs to get Charles alone and bat those big brown eyes at him, and tell him her sob story about not being able to get a job in publishing because of her age, then Charles will believe her and feel sorry for her.  Then either he or she will realize it's a fantastic premise for a book, even better than "Marriage Vacation", and he will encourage her to write it with his support.  He can tell the public he knew about her real age all along and supported her going "undercover" to prove that she had to lie about her age in order to succeed.  The book would be entitled "Younger".

Yeah, probably not happening!

Edited by Yeah No
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8 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

She needs to get Charles alone and bat those big brown eyes at him, and tell him her sob story about not being able to get a job in publishing because of her age, then Charles will believe her and feel sorry for her.  Then he'll realize it's a fantastic premise for a book, even better than "Marriage Vacation", and he will encourage her to write it with his support.  He can tell the public he knew about her real age all along and supported her going "undercover" to prove that she had to lie about her age in order to succeed.  The book would be entitled "Younger".

Yeah, probably not happening!

During S1, I was sure that once her secret came out, she would get a book deal to write about her experience pretending to be younger. Initially her story reminded me of Riley Weston who was pretty famously exposed for lying about her age (she shaved 13 years off her age and was hailed as a 19 year old wunderkind who was hired to wrote for Felicity). Part of me still thinks they’re saving that for the series finale. 

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1 minute ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

During S1, I was sure that once her secret came out, she would get a book deal to write about her experience pretending to be younger. Initially her story reminded me of Riley Weston who was pretty famously exposed for lying about her age (she shaved 13 years off her age and was hailed as a 19 year old wunderkind who was hired to wrote for Felicity). Part of me still thinks they’re saving that for the series finale. 

Here's another possible scenario - Charles gets mad at her for lying, then he fires her and her age is revealed, then she gets all sorts of book deal offers from other publishing companies, but of course she goes back to Charles and tells him that if he doesn't publish it, she has x number of offers waiting in the wings.  That would be an interesting twist!

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1 hour ago, Moxie Cat said:

I hated that part too, but Charles may be buying into the idea that she is a con artist, or worse, some type of sociopathic liar. He's wondering if he can trust her representing the company in any way. Obviously, he should just confront her and talk about it, but I can't fault him for being suspicious of her motives - or the fact that she's been lying for so long and so intricately.

Or just do his own research. Isn't it like $100 to get a credit report. I know that employers where employees handle decent amounts of money often get them done on employees.  There's no way that Charles or LL Moore's report doesn't have enough info to search for Liza's or her husband's, David's, credit history. At which point, Charles would see that David screwed them over financially with gambling debts, blew their savings, lost his dentistry practice, and lost their house.

All of this is so typical of Charles. Throughout his time in the show, he's been characterized by indecision and diffidence. When he talks about why he's running Empirical, it often sounds like an obligation rather than a choice. And it can be so much easier to justify your inaction when you waffle and force others to make choices for you.

He never had a taking stock of their relationship conversation with Pauline. They refused to talk about their issues until she left. When she came back, she basically forced the issue about them reuniting until he snapped, but she'd been going hard nearly the entire time. He took Liza to the auction of his personal stuff and he presented a very passive picture of himself and his life.

It's for those reasons that I'm off the Charles and Liza ship. After Liza's wake up call about how awful her husband was, she's been much more active in choosing her fate and path. Even her pitching Reese about Millenial is Liza being a more active player in her life.

For all of his youth and dumbfuckery with Clare, Josh isn't passive either.

5 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

During S1, I was sure that once her secret came out, she would get a book deal to write about her experience pretending to be younger.

Part of me still thinks they’re saving that for the series finale. 

I agree they are probably saving it for the finale. I don't want Charles to have any part of suggesting Liza write "Younger." Her instincts keep getting better. I want her to realize her own worth.

Edited by HunterHunted
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1 hour ago, Moxie Cat said:

I can't fault him for being suspicious of her motives

I can. Liza might have made a few mistakes during her time at Empirical, but she never actively tried to sabotage the company. Why would she suddenly start now?

Charles's passivity drives me nuts. If he doesn't want to confront Liza directly—and I do think there are legit reasons not to do so just yet—he can start digging around discreetly. Gah. And he needs to definitively resolve his relationship with Pauline, regardless of what's going on with Liza. 

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36 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Liza might have made a few mistakes during her time at Empirical, but she never actively tried to sabotage the company. W

I agree. I know in the show’s universe she has been working there for less than two years but Charles need to put aside his feelings and think logically. She has consistently helped the company so does he really believe that this is a long con so that she can sabotage the company after working there for a decade? Heh that reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Jerry takes his shoes to be repaired at a local shop and then the store closes unexpectedly. When Kramer suggests that the owners’ plan all along was to con them, Elaine says, “So mom and pop’s plan was to move into the neighborhood, establish trust for 48 years, and then run off with Jerry’s sneakers?”

Honestly, if there’s anyone whose motives for coming to Empirical seem suspicious, it’s Zane. He screwed them by stealing LL Moore, got screwed back, and then jumped ship from his old company to Empirical. That’s way more potential for being a mole who’s ultimately going to betray the company than someone who lied about her age to get a thankless job as Diana’s assistant.

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6 hours ago, Moxie Cat said:
7 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

That doesn’t excuse Charles being a jerk about Liza’s Reese Witherspoon deal.

I hated that part too, but Charles may be buying into the idea that she is a con artist, or worse, some type of sociopathic liar.

I think he may be worried about fraud. The woman at Reese Witherspoon's company specifically cited "working with these young women" as one of the reasons for their agreeing to the deal. Now that Charles knows about Liza, entering into that contract might be seen as an act of bad faith. They could lose the deal, or get sued, get a bad reputation and find it difficult to work with other companies, etc. I thought his holding off made sense. It's the rash decision to agree without seeming to consult anyone about the ramifications of the deal that made no sense to me.

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11 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Here's another possible scenario - Charles gets mad at her for lying, then he fires her and her age is revealed, then she gets all sorts of book deal offers from other publishing companies, but of course she goes back to Charles and tells him that if he doesn't publish it, she has x number of offers waiting in the wings.  That would be an interesting twist!

Not that it makes Liza writing about it impossible, but hasn't she basically sold her story to that therapist a few seasons back to get Martha Plimpton off her ass?

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12 hours ago, 7-Zark-7 said:

I think he may be worried about fraud. The woman at Reese Witherspoon's company specifically cited "working with these young women" as one of the reasons for their agreeing to the deal. Now that Charles knows about Liza, entering into that contract might be seen as an act of bad faith. They could lose the deal, or get sued, get a bad reputation and find it difficult to work with other companies, etc. I thought his holding off made sense. It's the rash decision to agree without seeming to consult anyone about the ramifications of the deal that made no sense to me.

All of that makes sense except Charles held off on the deal without doing his own thorough investigation, without talking to Liza, and without having more than one drunken conversation with his lawyer. I'm an attorney and if a client tried to pass off that tipsy half-assed bit of advice as seeking legal counsel and management of risk, I'd think about dropping the client. And if I knew the attorney who just stopped at the advice he dispensed over cocktails and didn't follow up in the morning, I'd pull them aside and encourage them to do their actual job. Charles lucked into an actual bit of legal advice about the Liza situation. I'm not going to applaud him for doing his job as half-assedly as he always does it.

He didn't dig down with his finance guys about whether they truly needed the Reese deal. He basically decided when Diana started talking about selling her apartment. He didn't sit down with his attorneys about what their legal risks were with Liza--what they've promised vs what they've delivered in contract, whether her lies and financial history represent too much risk, and the many employment issues related to Liza's tenure (her harassment by LL Moore, her romantic and personal involvement with Charles, that she's helped find and publish some of their best selling works in recent memory, and that she's had one on the job injury). He can call it whatever, but he wasn't doing any of the things he should have actually been doing if he was truly worried about the legal and financial ramifications.

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4 hours ago, Aulty said:

Not that it makes Liza writing about it impossible, but hasn't she basically sold her story to that therapist a few seasons back to get Martha Plimpton off her ass?

She gave the therapist the right to write about her as an anonymous case study but I doubt that affects any book Liza might write about herself in the future.

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On 6/13/2018 at 5:00 PM, 7-Zark-7 said:

Pauline: David Remnick called my writing 'sinewy'! Can you believe it?! Why, this is the best night of my...

Charles: I'm dumping you.

The timing! 

I don't know what to make of Charles at this point. Never been a fan, really, but I get his confusion with the whole situation. I think the show is making him intentionally confused and clueless, so that eventually we will have a huge "moment" when he finally declares his love for Liza. He'll rip his shirt off, beat his chest and yell "You're my woman and I don't care who knows it! I love you Liza! " right in the middle of staff meeting.

I'm only half-joking.

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On 6/14/2018 at 8:40 PM, 7-Zark-7 said:

I think he may be worried about fraud. The woman at Reese Witherspoon's company specifically cited "working with these young women" as one of the reasons for their agreeing to the deal. Now that Charles knows about Liza, entering into that contract might be seen as an act of bad faith. They could lose the deal, or get sued, get a bad reputation and find it difficult to work with other companies, etc. I thought his holding off made sense. It's the rash decision to agree without seeming to consult anyone about the ramifications of the deal that made no sense to me.

Yeah. I felt like his hesitation came after Kiara said "We'll have our legal time contact your's". It felt less a "screw lying Liza and take away this opportunity" and more "crap, what if they find out. This secret I now know about Liza could cause all sorts of ramifications".

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On 6/14/2018 at 6:32 PM, dubbel zout said:

I can. Liza might have made a few mistakes during her time at Empirical, but she never actively tried to sabotage the company. Why would she suddenly start now?

Charles's passivity drives me nuts. If he doesn't want to confront Liza directly—and I do think there are legit reasons not to do so just yet—he can start digging around discreetly. Gah. And he needs to definitively resolve his relationship with Pauline, regardless of what's going on with Liza. 

Again, I've never been Team Charles, but I think we should give him a minute to process all this. It's been literally one episode since he found out. He just might start digging around.

And I believe he did definitely resolve his relationship with Pauline at the end of this last episode. Bye bye Pauline.

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11 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

I think we should give him a minute to process all this. It's been literally one episode since he found out.

Charles definitely should have time to process this, which is why he shouldn't instantly fire Liza or think she's sabotaging the company. And it's why he definitely should dig around. Figure out what's what and then decide what to do. But Charles has a bad habit of either dithering (see: how he handled Pauline) and/or letting things happen to him (see: how he handled Pauline).

11 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

And I believe he did definitely resolve his relationship with Pauline at the end of this last episode. Bye bye Pauline.

He's changed his mind about her before. I hope this is the end, because I think Pauline has served her dramatic purpose.

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I cannot stand the actor who plays Charles's ex, she is awful, and I cannot stand her face either.  Sorry 

On 6/14/2018 at 5:38 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

During S1, I was sure that once her secret came out, she would get a book deal to write about her experience pretending to be younger. Initially her story reminded me of Riley Weston who was pretty famously exposed for lying about her age (she shaved 13 years off her age and was hailed as a 19 year old wunderkind who was hired to wrote for Felicity). Part of me still thinks they’re saving that for the series finale. 

This is an awesome story.  LOL.  Thanks for sharing.  The only somewhat close thing I know about is Mila Kunis claiming she lied to say she was 18 years old to star on That 70's Show when she was actually only 14.

Here's Diana's awesome statement jewellry

Dfp0UcUWkAAKaBQ.jpg

Dfp0UcWXcAAV2uD.jpg

Edited by Ms Blue Jay
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