Super Social Analysis: Gender, Race, Ethnicity, and LGBT in Movies

[Bastet]

On 2016-12-21 at 5:07 PM, topanga said:

Why were they woken up early anyway?

As I understand the reviews - of a movie I'd have never gone to see in the theatre as I'm not a sci-fi fan, and will now also decline to watch once it hits television because of the offensive premise -

Spoiler

he was woken up early because of a technical malfunction and she was woken up early because he decided to fuck her over in order to have a companion.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Athena
Added spoiler tags

[angora]

On 12/21/2016 at 6:04 AM, vibeology said:

Im not Asian so take my thoughts on this with a grain of salt, but neither of the two Asian main characters are there as tokens and both have substance. One of them is more stereotypical in his fighting style (you don't cast Donnie Yen for nothing) but has enough meat as a character that he isn't defined by that. Rogue One has a diverse cast and none of the main six characters are flimsy in terms of writing. 

I saw Rogue One last night, and I think Chirrut, Donnie Yen's character, is good proof of the notion that tropes with a racial history don't always have to mean the character itself is a racist stereotype (no major spoilers, but it you're maintaining total radio silence before seeing Rogue One, avert your eyes.)  I mean, Chirrut is a blind warrior monk whose mad martial arts skills are assisted by his mystical oneness with the Force - hearing that description, it's easy to roll your eyes and go, "Of COURSE he is!"  But for me, Chirrut always feels more like a character than a stereotype.  There's a warmth, personability, and HUMOR about him that make him feel real in a way that a racist portrayal of a mystical warrior monk wouldn't.  He doesn't give off the air of someone who's just been sitting on a mountain waiting for the (white) protagonist to come along so he can impart his wisdom to them.  I love his affectionate, wry bickering with Baze - he knows that Baze doesn't get the depth of his devotion to the Force, and he amuses himself by aggravating Baze with it.  And, as funny as K-2 is, one of my biggest laughs in the film comes when Chirrut's captors put a bag over his head and he shouts, "Are you KIDDING me?!  I'm BLIND!"

Watching the film, I was struck by how its diversity serves as kind of an interesting parallel for our relationship with history and race (and gender, although the films do continue to have an enormous gender imbalance and have yet to really recognize WOMEN of color.  Throughout these thoughts, "(white) woman" and "(male) PoC" are implied.)  With The Force Awakens placing a woman and PoC front and center as the heroes, it feels like a shift, a "new Star Wars for a new era."  Rogue One continues that trend, but because it's SET just before A New Hope and its plot is intrinsically tied to the outcome of that movie, it feels to me like a reminder that diversity isn't a "modern invention."  The woman and PoC heroes positioned before Rogue One seem to say, "We've always BEEN here."  Not in a "Dumbledore was gay the whole time!" way, but in a way that acknowledges this as a previously-untold story.

Because we all know about Luke Skywalker.  The white guy with the Big Damn Hero moment in A New Hope is the story we've known for decades.  But we've never heard about the group of rebels - a woman, four people of color, and a snarky droid - who did this awesome, brave thing, without whom that white guy wouldn't have been ABLE to do what he did.  It reminded me of some of the conversation I've seen around Hidden Figures, with people saying, "Why am I JUST hearing about these incredible Black women who were instrumental to the space program NOW?  Why hasn't their story already been made into a movie?  What other important parts of history haven't entered our general awareness because they don't have a white guy at the center of them?"  I don't know whether or not anyone at Disney thought about this when they choose to take a single point from A New Hope and expand it into an entire story featuring these PoC and female characters whose names we've never heard before, but either way, the thought of it is really interesting to me.

[ribboninthesky1]

1 hour ago, angora said:

"Why am I JUST hearing about these incredible Black women who were instrumental to the space program NOW?  Why hasn't their story already been made into a movie?  What other important parts of history haven't entered our general awareness because they don't have a white guy at the center of them?"

About Hidden Figures - it still would be largely unknown if Margot Lee Shetterly, a black woman who grew up around blacks in STEM, hadn't done her meticulous research for the book that inspired the film.  I've not seen the film yet, but the book is fabulous. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

@angora I really agree with you on Donnie Yen's character.

Some people have made me look at Rogue One in a new way by tweeting about Felicity Jones' character.  Her entire journey/quest is about her father, so some see her as simply as the object of a more important male character.  Someone likened this to The Hunger Games.  She said that in big action movies where a woman is finally the star, it is unfortunate that the writers always make sure her journey/quest is about a man.  Something interesting to think about.  (Ugh, I just realized this is about gender.  Apologies.)

Watching Taraji promote Hidden Figures has made me realize I adore this woman so much I should read her new book.  It's gotten rave reviews from readers on Goodreads.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[proserpina65]

19 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'm personally not going to watch any movies that pretend to tell a black story or an Asian story starring a white actor.  It's not appealing to me.

While you're certainly within your rights to not see any movie you don't want to see, and while I see your point, in the case of this particular film, it's an Asian director telling an Asian story which has two non-Asian actors in roles which, from everything I've read about it, are not the leads.  I know the trailers make it look like Matt Damon is the star, but it seems like, according to the director, his role is not the central one of the film.  I'm probably not going to see it in the theater, but I'm willing to reserve judgment about skipping it entirely until reviews come out.

[AimingforYoko]

BAFTA takes a hard line on diversity.

[raezen]

Just saw this trailer today .  I don't know anything about this story so I honestly don't have an opinion about it being made into a film. This has potential.

[starri]

37 minutes ago, raezen said:

This has potential.

I don't know about that.  It's definitely an interesting story, and I like most of the cast, but it's been sitting on a shelf for two years because it couldn't find a distributor until they decided to dump it on VOD.

[raezen]

So in other words the story had potential and then they made the movie.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Relevant to the convo; apparently Mulan was too westernized for Chinese audiences.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1999-05-03/features/9905030250_1_disney-s-mulan-sui-dynasty-chinese

[Silver Raven]

7 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

BAFTA takes a hard line on diversity.

Does that mean we're going to be getting more Robin Hood and King Arthur movies with African characters in them?

[netlyon2]

12 hours ago, angora said:

Watching the film, I was struck by how its diversity serves as kind of an interesting parallel for our relationship with history and race (and gender, although the films do continue to have an enormous gender imbalance and have yet to really recognize WOMEN of color.  Throughout these thoughts, "(white) woman" and "(male) PoC" are implied.)  With The Force Awakens placing a woman and PoC front and center as the heroes, it feels like a shift, a "new Star Wars for a new era."  Rogue One continues that trend, but because it's SET just before A New Hope and its plot is intrinsically tied to the outcome of that movie, it feels to me like a reminder that diversity isn't a "modern invention."  The woman and PoC heroes positioned before Rogue One seem to say, "We've always BEEN here."  Not in a "Dumbledore was gay the whole time!" way, but in a way that acknowledges this as a previously-untold story.

I agree with all of your post, and with this section especially.  Here are a couple of articles that I read and shared with other fans after I saw (and loved) the movie on Friday.

Jyn Erso Isn’t Revolutionary; Her Co-Leads Are

The Star Wars Universe is Proliferated with Brunette White Female Protagonists: How "Star Wars" forgot about black women  (Of particular note here is that the Han Solo prequel movie appears to have cut out a black woman character who is part of his canonical backstory and replaced her with yet another white woman.)

-----------------

On the subject of the Cho/Swinton conversation, I think a couple of things bear repeating for those who see nothing wrong with Swinton's actions:

1.  The problems that Cho and many people of color have are not with Swinton's words, but the content of her messages.  It is quite possible to phrase disrespectful demands and responses in a seemingly-respectful way.  It is also possible to be disrespectful without intending such, particularly when your words/actions flow from a place of privilege.

2.  Swinton's request was just the sort of laziness that many people of privilege like to pretend is "reaching out" to others.  It was evident from her first e-mail that Swinton did nothing to educate herself on the issue before making the arrogant assumption that a woman with whom she had no prior connection would have the time and inclination to do the work for her.

I could go on, but I think I'll just link to an article by Gene Demby at NPR's Code Switch, which speaks to the issue far more eloquently and effectively than I could.  I will end by encouraging those who see nothing wrong with Swinton's initial request or subsequent responses, who see Cho's description of the exchange as a misrepresentation disproven by the release of the e-mails, to spare a bit of consideration to the fact that many people of color (and probably many women, once they think about it) are familiar with Cho's experience and viewpoint because it's something we deal with on a far-too-regular basis.

Quote

 

But it's clear to me that Cho walked away from the same encounter having had a completely different, far more frustrating experience. That's because Swinton and Cho weren't having the same conversation. What I think Swinton wanted from Cho was some kind of exculpation. What Cho wanted was for Swinton to "get it."

It's true that the email exchange shouldn't be characterized as a "fight." It's also true that their courtesies — I'm such a fan! each wrote to the other — didn't completely camouflage the unpleasantness of what Swinton was asking. These are dynamics I recognize in emails from some Code Switch readers and listeners who self-identify as white, and who seem to be requesting some kind of reassurance that they're not racist or wrong.

- Gene Demby, When Swinton And Cho Talk Race, The Point's Lost In Translation

 

[aradia22]

Quote

I could go on, but I think I'll just link to an article by Gene Demby at NPR's Code Switch, which speaks to the issue far more eloquently and effectively than I could.  I will end by encouraging those who see nothing wrong with Swinton's initial request or subsequent responses, who see Cho's description of the exchange as a misrepresentation disproven by the release of the e-mails, to spare a bit of consideration to the fact that many people of color (and probably many women, once they think about it) are familiar with Cho's experience and viewpoint because it's something we deal with on a far-too-regular basis.

I am a woman. I am a person of color. I am millennial. Granted, because of where I live and what my situation is at the moment, I just don't interact with as many white women. I cannot speak for Margaret Cho and people who have worked in the entertainment industry for a long time and faced the issues therein. But my friends are Muslim, African American, Chinese, Native American, Mexican, etc. And I would hate to feel like we couldn't have conversations about what those experiences mean and how they shape our perspectives. I don't feel like they have to be conversations where we immediately adopt one person's positions or we're wrong. In civil discourse, I think you should be able to have a conversation and discuss the finer points. The world is often horrible and almost always complicated. We need to talk and we need to listen if we're going to figure things out. Maybe it's because I don't have years of resentment or frustration but if someone is willing to engage, if someone is willing to listen, then I'm open to talking. 

Of course, I understand that there is a difference with Swinton being of Caucasian descent and also being a stranger and not a friend. But I would counter that if you put yourself out there as a commentator and advocate, you should be somewhat prepared to speak to that. It's different from stopping a random Asian woman on the street and asking her questions. And maybe I'm sensitive to it in this world that pushes us to be "post-truth" but I don't think mischaracterizing situations does anyone any good. We need to do productive things and we also need to be kinder to each other. 

[aradia22]

I finally caught Skeleton Twins (it's expiring from Amazon Prime soon). Of course I can't speak to how well it represents the gay experience and it does retread familiar ground 

Spoiler

the gay character played by Bill Heder was in a sexual relationship with his English teacher when he was 15 and suffers from depression with suicidal tendencies

but I thought it was pretty great. I was impressed with how much the two leads, Bill Heder and Kristen Wiig, suppressed the charisma that makes them actors, particularly at the beginning of the movie. Sometimes it's unavoidable. If you're watching someone you recognize, it's hard to fully suspend your disbelief to take them seriously as a different person. They were still acting. It wasn't like they were acting poorly. But they tamped down the charm and delivered their lines and sometimes jokes like normal people would. As they got more playful with each other, there were scenes around the middle where they started to "act" again. I thought Bill Heder gave a solid performance. It didn't feel overly fey or stereotyped. I think he carried himself a little differently but it felt natural. Also, I think it dealt with depression relatively well. I do think it fell into more of a typical movie somewhere around the halfway point with more melodrama and the lip-syncing and all of that but for the most part, I still enjoyed it. I feel like it started in a good place and then didn't have the courage to fully commit to the depression and felt the need take everything implicitly alluded to and spell it out. I'm not sure how I feel about Rich (Ty Burrell), the teacher character.

[starri]

If you're looking for a SNL adjacent LGBT themed drama, Other People is available on, I think Netflix and possibly also Amazon Prime.  It was written and directed by Chris Kelly, who became SNL's head writer this year, and stars Molly Shannon.  Pushing-30 gay guy (played by a straight guy, of course) who's trying and failing to become a TV writer (although he had written for SNL) breaks up with his boyfriend and goes home to Sacramento to help care for his dying mother.  He also has to deal with his religious father--played by Bradley Whitford--who still can't deal with him after being out for ten years.

Chris Kelly is a TV writer from Sacramento whose mother died of the same rare type of cancer, so I have to imagine at least parts of it are autobiographical.  Molly Shannon is terrific as the mom.

Edited December 24, 2016 by starri

[galax-arena]

Just saw this trailer today .  I don't know anything about this story so I honestly don't have an opinion about it being made into a film. This has potential.

The NYT article the movie's based on is a pretty interesting read, for anyone who's interested.

[JBC344]

I've been waiting for I am Michael for like two years now.  I'm surprised it hadn't gotten distribution since the true story was pretty popular.  I hope it finds a home and doesn't get buried.  The trailer actually looks really good.

[JBC344]

On ‎12‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 9:23 PM, aradia22 said:

I am a woman. I am a person of color. I am millennial. Granted, because of where I live and what my situation is at the moment, I just don't interact with as many white women. I cannot speak for Margaret Cho and people who have worked in the entertainment industry for a long time and faced the issues therein. But my friends are Muslim, African American, Chinese, Native American, Mexican, etc. And I would hate to feel like we couldn't have conversations about what those experiences mean and how they shape our perspectives. I don't feel like they have to be conversations where we immediately adopt one person's positions or we're wrong. In civil discourse, I think you should be able to have a conversation and discuss the finer points. The world is often horrible and almost always complicated. We need to talk and we need to listen if we're going to figure things out. Maybe it's because I don't have years of resentment or frustration but if someone is willing to engage, if someone is willing to listen, then I'm open to talking. 

Of course, I understand that there is a difference with Swinton being of Caucasian descent and also being a stranger and not a friend. But I would counter that if you put yourself out there as a commentator and advocate, you should be somewhat prepared to speak to that. It's different from stopping a random Asian woman on the street and asking her questions. And maybe I'm sensitive to it in this world that pushes us to be "post-truth" but I don't think mischaracterizing situations does anyone any good. We need to do productive things and we also need to be kinder to each other. 

I completely agree with you.  As someone who loves both Margaret and Tilda and finds this whole conversation to be incredibly convoluted at best.  The one thing I have a problem with is the idea that Tilda shouldn't have contacted Margaret.  I see nothing wrong with her reaching out.

Now I'm not commenting on the actual conversation just the act that started it all.  Isn't that how we learn from one another?  How we learn about different cultures?  I don't think Tilda is under some impression that Margaret speaks for all Asian people but genuinely wanted to understand the issue.  I also believe it is more complicated than "he/she should automatically know that it is wrong" when they are coming from a completely different perspective.

I just think as long as a person is asking in a respectful inquisitive way, take the opportunity to teach them (yes, I know it is not your job to do it but that is like cutting your nose to spite your face) what the issue is or your point of view.  Whatever they chose to do with that info is on them but at least you put it out there for the person to receive. 

I'm a black actor who is trying to make it in Hollywood.  I have no problem sharing my experiences that I have faced in this industry.  Whenever anyone asks me about issues of race and diversity I don't roll my eyes and exclaim that they should know what I go through.  Most people who I describe my experiences are surprised not because they are uneducated and don't know that racism exists but because they are unaware of the subtlety of systematic racism.  Sharing my experiences often opens their eyes to things they have never thought about or looked at through my perspective. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

A bit more explanation here BUT THESE ARE SPOILERS:

Spoiler

The ship goes right through an asteroid (?) that shakes so much that Chris's pod is jarred loose and he's awakened by mistake.

He spends a year completely alone, trying to fix his situation, then eventually giving up, he is very much like Tom Hanks in Castaway.  He contemplates suicide.  He almost commits it.  He goes 'crazy'.

He then 'falls in love' with J-Law's character just from her lying there in her pod.  He is just mental enough that he awakens her even though he knows that what he is doing is terribly, terribly wrong.

Not excusing what happens.  But it is a weird movie, with a 'unique' premise for sure.  

I'm NO J.Law fan, I'm just trying to give more details here so it's not so cut and dry.

Spoiler

J.Law's character is very appropriately angry, incredibly angry, which is not what I expected from these reviews.  She almost kills him in retaliation.  I mean, you have to watch until the end to see why reviewers were upset, I guess, because I think it kind of makes sense that she eventually gets the Stockholm Syndrome.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[JessePinkman]

I think the negative reaction to this is largely because the onus is always on the oppressed or marginalized to "teach" people things they could easily with the advent of the internet learn on their own. There are literally hundreds of articles about the racial implications of her casting alone that she could read in order to educate herself but instead she's gone to Margaret Cho to get a crash course. It's obnoxious.

People always seem to couch their ignorance in politeness as if that gives them a pass. You should be smarter than that but if you're not that does not make me your personal wikipedia. I am a person and I have a right to react however I see fit.

Edited December 27, 2016 by JessePinkman

[Bruinsfan]

Well, reading that last makes me more inclined to see it.

[raezen]

5 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

Well, reading that last makes me more inclined to see it.

You'd think that I would be more receptive as well, but enough reviewers indicated that this well understood response is quickly swept under the rug and instead 

She chooses to be with Jim, and forgo get dreams instead of going back into the fixed pod.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I disagree that it is "quickly swept under the rug".  A lot happens in between.  @Bruinsfan That is how I felt when I read some reviews as well.  I don't regret seeing it.  The movie made my Dad happy and it was something I could do for him on Christmas Day.  I didn't love it, but I didn't hate it.  The space stuff in 3D was pretty cool.

However, as a feminist, I'm glad that so many reviews were so angry with the problematic message of the movie and how it's not a good basis for a traditional romance story or love story at all.  I still feel like I can decide for myself though, and I'm a big 50 Shades fan and I'm glad that stuff exists.

Also with all of the J.Law hype since Winter's Bone and the fucking 3 Oscar nominations or whatever I can't help but smile that the movie totally bombed.  

Edited December 27, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

I also think the negative reaction is that some people act like they're deathly terrified to learn more about race or engage in discussions about it or write characters of different races because they're "damned if they do, damned if they don't".  Well, too fucking bad.  I don't really sympathize with that.  Asking people of colour to sympathize with the white struggles of trying to live in 2016 without offending anyone.....  Sorry, no.  Educate yourself.  There is a wealth of material.  Make friends with people of different races if it's that necessary for you to learn.  I've lived my life being friends with people of all different races and I've been necessarily and harshly educated sometimes.  Margaret and Tilda weren't "friends" as I see it.  Tilda tried to use her for free education.  And it's pretty clear she had no intention of listening to Margaret, or doing any further work, and then she didn't.  So not even for free education.  Just flat out permission.  For me it was Margaret who was in the damned if she does, damned if she doesn't position.  It didn't really matter what Margaret did in that position.  Tilda took the role.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[Silver Raven]

On 12/23/2016 at 7:37 AM, angora said:

I love his affectionate, wry bickering with Baze - he knows that Baze doesn't get the depth of his devotion to the Force, and he amuses himself by aggravating Baze with it. 

There is online speculation that the two are a couple.

[Bruinsfan]

On 12/23/2016 at 9:37 AM, angora said:

I saw Rogue One last night, and I think Chirrut, Donnie Yen's character, is good proof of the notion that tropes with a racial history don't always have to mean the character itself is a racist stereotype (no major spoilers, but it you're maintaining total radio silence before seeing Rogue One, avert your eyes.) 

This. I mean, I really enjoyed Swinton's performance, but the original comics character is an intensely kind and wise teacher who's been called out in the text as the most powerful living force for good in the world. Some of his trappings and character traits are stereotypes, but they're positive ones. Basically you could have pitched a Cliff's Notes version of the Ancient One as Chow Yun Fat's character from Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon with less swordplay and romance and more mysticism. I don't think that sort of depiction with an Asian actor in the role would have come off as racist or been offensive to the Chinese audience that the screenwriter seemed desperate to cater to.

[angora]

On the further topic of Chirrut, I was reading this interview with Donnie Yen about the film, and this really stuck out to me.  Yen talks about how he was initially wary of being in the film at all, that he wondered if he was just there to "kick some Stormtrooper's butt" and be a draw for the Chinese market, but Gareth Edwards assured him that "he wants a very specific persona in Chirrut by Donnie Yen."  He describes the collaborative process of developing the character:

Quote

How Chirrut ended up being blind was a collaboration of me and Gareth. During the process, we were talking about different possibilities and he was asking my opinions. I said, “I want this character not to be so clichéd. I’ve played this character thousands of times — this type of bad-ass, skillful warrior hero. I want him to be grounded. I want him to be human, even vulnerable. Wouldn’t it be interesting to have him blind?” 

He liked the idea, Disney loved it — and Chirrut ended up being blind.

The other thing that was very important to me is: “Listen, I know he’s a true believer and he’s constantly preaching his philosophies. But let’s make him like you and I: He has a sense of humor. He gets it. He can have a beer with you.” 

Those are two things I’m glad this character ended up having.

That was really interesting to me, that two of the most distinctive things about Chirrut (the other, for me, being his relationship with Baze) came from Yen himself.  Makes me suspect he would've been a lot more generic if Edwards/Disney hadn't been so open to working WITH Yen.  It also goes to show how valuable it is to listen to Asians when it comes to the creation of Asian characters, whether that means bringing in an additional writer or just asking the opinion of the actor.  I thought Chirrut was such a special character, who felt so specific and real despite being a very familiar character type, and it sounds like that might not have happened without Yen's input.  I appreciate Edwards's receptiveness and willingness to admit he doesn't know what he doesn't know.

And yeah - further proof that Marvel could've figured out how to make the Ancient One non-racist AND still Asian if they'd involved someone Asian in the creative process and listened to what they had to say.  It makes me wonder if they even brought in any Asian actors - male or female - to read the lines that they'd written, or if their "Fu Manchu"/"Dragon Lady" declarations were made completely sight unseen.

[calliope1975]

Baze and Chirrut were, by far, my favorite characters in Rogue One. I want 1000 more movies about them and their relationship. 

There was no reason the Ancient One couldn't have been Asian - man or women. TPTB could have reimagined the character and collaborated with the actor to create someone unique, but they chose not to. In their effort to not be culturally insensitive, they ended up being culturally insensitive and worse, uncreative. 

[xaxat]

Tyrus Wong, ‘Bambi’ Artist Thwarted by Racial Bias, Dies at 106

Quote

When Walt Disney’s “Bambi” opened in 1942, critics praised its spare, haunting visual style, vastly different from anything Disney had done before.

But what they did not know was that the film’s striking appearance had been created by a Chinese immigrant artist, who took as his inspiration the landscape paintings of the Song dynasty. The extent of his contribution to “Bambi,” which remains a high-water mark for film animation, would not be widely known for decades.

[Bruinsfan]

I'm not so sure about the blind warrior aspect, as I recall seeing enough of that in Kung Fu movies and TV shows to be a stereotypical trope in and of itself. But the warmth and humor Yen brought to the role made Chirrut easily my favorite character in Rogue One. I'm going to have to look back through his catalog and catch up on some movies.

[Silver Raven]

I just saw a review complaining about La La Land having a white guy whitesplaining jazz to a black man (Ryan Gosling, John Legend)

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Silver Raven said:

I just saw a review complaining about La La Land having a white guy whitesplaining jazz to a black man (Ryan Gosling, John Legend)

Is Legend playing himself in the movie or at least a musician? Because if not wouldn't it also be racist to assume he was an expert in jazz just by virtue of bring black? Isn't that like assuming that someone is an expert in kung-fu just because they arr Chinese? 

[Silver Raven]

49 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Is Legend playing himself in the movie or at least a musician? Because if not wouldn't it also be racist to assume he was an expert in jazz just by virtue of bring black? Isn't that like assuming that someone is an expert in kung-fu just because they arr Chinese? 

He plays a jazz musician who plays a different kind of jazz than what Gosling's character prefers.

[aradia22]

Quote

I just saw a review complaining about La La Land having a white guy whitesplaining jazz to a black man (Ryan Gosling, John Legend)

I would say it's less of that. Ryan Gosling's character (Sebastian) loves traditional jazz and John Legend plays more contemporary music incorporating jazz for the kids (though personally I think it incorporates jazz only so much as a lot of music influences other music... there was soul and funk and all kinds of stuff in what they were playing at the concert). If you wanted to criticize that aspect of the movie, you could say Sebastian mansplains jazz poorly to Emma Stone's character (Mia). And John Legend comes in as the first (I think, if you discount the songs) actor of color with lines to disrupt Sebastian and Mia's white fantasy version of LA (where there are some people of color but they mostly stay in the background or provide entertainment like the jazz musicians). He does that for both the movie (if you want to see it that way, though it doesn't provoke any acknowledgement on the characters' parts) and also in the narrative. Actually, the black female casting director is also a disruptive force in Emma Stone's life but she doesn't make her presence as strongly felt. I think she's in one scene. Also, unless I'm misremembering, Sebastian doesn't really whitesplain. We cut to (rather jarringly) what seems like the middle of a conversation where John Legend is doing all the arguing. He's basically arguing both sides of the conversation which feels VERY weird so I have to assume Sebastian had already expressed his POV, otherwise it seems like John Legend is just ranting at him for no reason. (I think this movie had script issues but that is a point for another thread). 

[PepSinger]

Yeah, the argument between Sebastian and John Legend's character comes off more as having a difference of opinion about the type of jazz. He's not whitesplaining anything. Whoever said that is misinterpreting the movie, IMO. 

As far as Sebastian "mansplaining," he's not really doing that. Mia has next to zero knowledge about jazz. I'd understand that claim if Mia had an opinion that was based in facts and had more knowledge about the subject. Calling elevator music jazz music? What? LOL. It also felt as if Mia conceded that she basically had no idea what she was talking about if I am remembering correctly.

[aradia22]

Quote

As far as Sebastian "mansplaining," he's not really doing that. Mia has next to zero knowledge about jazz. I'd understand that claim if Mia had an opinion that was based in facts and had more knowledge about the subject. Calling elevator music jazz music? What? LOL. It also felt as if Mia conceded that she basically had no idea what she was talking about if I am remembering correctly.

Not to get too far off the point of this thread but I would say it felt a little mansplain-y because (and I do lay a lot of the blame for the problems in this whole argument on a weak script) while her argument about not liking jazz was lame... so was his defense of jazz. She says something later when they have the fight over dinner about him being able to communicate his passion to other people. If that conversation in the club was an example of that and the sole jazz advocate was Sebastian, no wonder jazz (in the movie) is dying. It was just spluttery, vague rambling. I understood him much better when he was defended that stool from his inexplicably shrewish (see: weak script) sister. 

To bring it back to the topic of the thread... I do think the movie tried to head off criticism with the opening number in particular but I also think aside from John Legend, most of the nonwhite actors were kept in the background to literally add "color." How can you be in a jazz club and focus on Ryan Gosling on the piano and Emma Stone's pretty unremarkable dancing when you have all these other black characters around them? I couldn't help but find that scene a little jarring. I wonder if anyone will write a critique that analyzes this fantasy of LA through more of a racial and less of a romantic lens, considering John Legend's character as a disruptive force. I think there's an argument to be made about a kind of comforting faux-diversity. 

Oh, I almost forgot that in line with the faux-diversity, misogynistically-written sister ends up marrying a black man and I think they have a son. Unless I'm forgetting it, he never speaks (neither does she after that first scene) and we mostly quickly flash to them looking happy or looking happy in a photograph. 

Edited January 3, 2017 by aradia22

[PepSinger]

50 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

I wonder if anyone will write a critique that analyzes this fantasy of LA through more of a racial and less of a romantic lens, considering John Legend's character as a disruptive force. I think there's an argument to be made about a kind of comforting faux-diversity. 

Well, I think the issue with this movie is that there really aren't any "supporting" roles other than Keith (Legend). Emma and Ryan are clearly the leads (first tier), and everyone else essentially has minor roles (third tier, fourth tier, etc...). Keith is really the only second tier character in the movie. When you look at it that way, it does seem that they at least made some effort to add color to the cast where they could (Keith, jazz restaurant patrons, musicians, couple dancing on board walk, one of the casting directors). Now, if this movie had a ton of legitimate supporting characters who were all white, then I would be more sympathetic to the "faux diversity" sentiment because there would clearly be meaty roles that didn't go to actors of color. I hope this makes sense.

Edit: Also, at the end of the movie, I *think* Stone, Gosling, and Legend were the only people who received their own title cards, which adds to my argument.

Edited January 3, 2017 by PepSinger

[alihart41]

56 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

Well, I think the issue with this movie is that there really aren't any "supporting" roles other than Keith (Legend). Emma and Ryan are clearly the leads (first tier), and everyone else essentially has minor roles (third tier, fourth tier, etc...). Keith is really the only second tier character in the movie. When you look at it that way, it does seem that they at least made some effort to add color to the cast where they could (Keith, jazz restaurant patrons, musicians, couple dancing on board walk, one of the casting directors). Now, if this movie had a ton of legitimate supporting characters who were all white, then I would be more sympathetic to the "faux diversity" sentiment because there would clearly be meaty roles that didn't go to actors of color. I hope this makes sense.

Edit: Also, at the end of the movie, I *think* Stone, Gosling, and Legend were the only people who received their own title cards, which adds to my argument.

Rosemarie DeWitt and Finn Wittrock also had their own title cards. Surprisingly J.K. Simmons did not have a title card at all -- I was expecting an "and" title card (he's in the full cast list scroll, so it wasn't an uncredited cameo or anything).

I don't think the movie suffers from faux diversity as much as it suffers from Damien Chazelle's, IMO, bad habit: he only cares about his two leads. If you're not one of them, regardless of skin color, you're screwed, not just with screen time, but arc and characterization. His "supporting" players thus far have all seem to be created just to serve the leads.

[aradia22]

Quote

I don't think the movie suffers from faux diversity as much as it suffers from Damien Chazelle's, IMO, bad habit: he only cares about his two leads. If you're not one of them, regardless of skin color, you're screwed, not just with screen time, but arc and characterization. His "supporting" players thus far have all seem to be created just to serve the leads.

I think it works in this movie because of the plot. But I saw it less as the self-centeredness of romance (as well as two artists in LA) and more the self-absorption of these two particular characters. He goes off on his experimental jazz solo and then expects that J.K. Simmons will forgive him. She puts on a one-woman show. There are countless examples. I think it has unfortunate implications because the setting isn't their small neighborhood in Brooklyn (as a lot of indies tend to be) or their charming small town (which in rom-coms is not heavily populated and tends to be mostly white anyway) but ALL OF LA. I don't know if you'd call them montages, but the over-reliance on those silent underscored scenes hurt the movie, I think, both in the development of the main characters (I didn't buy their romance/relationship) and the supporting characters. Everything on screen is a choice that's being made. They could have easily found something to cut or express differently in two hours that would close John Legend's arc or let his sister's husband have some lines or better expressed why Sebastian loves jazz by having him interact with the "traditional" jazz musicians.

[Silver Raven]

Diego Luna from Rogue One posted this on his Twitter account:

 

 

[Morrigan2575]

Damnit, I got something in my eye ?

[callie lee 29]

Well damn, I don't give a fuck about Star Wars and that made me tear up. 

[twoods]

I've had a crush on Diego Luna ever since I saw him in the 2nd Dirty Dancing movie- so glad he was in Rogue One and kept the accent. Can't wait to see it.

[angora]

I love that story so much.  Such a great, poignant demonstration of the fact that representation in stories doesn't exist in a vacuum.  It's not just about "political correctness" or whatever other bullshit studios claim; representation impacts people's lives.

[Ms Blue Jay]

We just want to see ourselves on screen.  We count as much as anyone else.  It's that simple.  I agree, @angora.

"Political correctness" "Forcing diversity"  "Quotas" "You must hate white people."  Or my personal favourite: "Merit (hahahahahahhaha!) over Diversity." Why the knee jerk reactions.  Why the defensiveness.  Just take it like we want to be considered as human as everyone else.  

I'd love to hear Tilda Swinton's opinion on why she should have played Chirrut Îmwe, though.  JK

Edited January 5, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Joe]

13 hours ago, angora said:

I love that story so much.  Such a great, poignant demonstration of the fact that representation in stories doesn't exist in a vacuum.  It's not just about "political correctness" or whatever other bullshit studios claim; representation impacts people's lives.

 

3 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

We just want to see ourselves on screen.  We count as much as anyone else.  It's that simple.  I agree, @angora.

"Political correctness" "Forcing diversity"  "Quotas" "You must hate white people."  Or my personal favourite: "Merit (hahahahahahhaha!) over Diversity." Why the knee jerk reactions.  Why the defensiveness.  Just take it like we want to be considered as human as everyone else.  

I'd love to hear Tilda Swinton's opinion on why she should have played Chirrut Îmwe, though.  JK

IMO, all races can and should join in the fun of blowing up space Nazis.

[cynic]

On 1/4/2017 at 0:28 PM, Silver Raven said:

Diego Luna from Rogue One posted this on his Twitter account:

 

 

I somehow missed that he was tweeting someone else's story and was wondering why Diego Luna's father was tripped out about his son having an accent in the movie. Sigh. Reading is fundamental!

Once I had caught up, I was very moved. Yes, people seeing people like themselves ( and no they don't need to be exact matches, cue the "I'm a whatever something or other and I never see that on-screen and you don't see me complaining" types) is important. It reinforces that they matter, that they are fine and accepted the way they are, that they are part of the tapestry of our society despite not being like the majority, that they are not just "others", that they are not invisible, and that they can be heroes and not just extras in other people's stories. I'm glad this guy's father got to have that experience, but I'm even more glad that a generation of children can see themselves in Star Wars.

[Ms Blue Jay]

There was also this tweet, which brought tears to my eyes.  I had just seen Rogue One myself.  I didn't love the movie as I expected to - I'm a big fan of The Force Awakens - but of course it was not lost on me that there are 3 Asian men in the main cast.  Along with a Latino and a black man.  

Edited January 7, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Silver Raven]

I guess this is as good a place as any to put this horrific idea.

 

Joseph Fiennes as Michael Jackson in Urban Myths

 

[aradia22]

Quote

I guess this is as good a place as any to put this horrific idea.

 

Joseph Fiennes as Michael Jackson in Urban Myths

I mean, most of those actors don't look anything like their real life counterparts (Stockard Channing as Elizabeth Taylor maybe came the closest) but also... Good Christ. Unless he's a Michael Jackson impersonator and it somehow makes sense in the show... 

(The internet is not cooperating with me right now but picture that gif of Homer backing away into the bushes.)