Super Social Analysis: Gender, Race, Ethnicity, and LGBT in Movies

[lavenderblue]

They did something similar for a male character type in The Baxter -- what happens to the hapless nice guy boyfriend character who gets thrown over for the hero in a rom-com. The funny-sidekicks-as-centerpiece is such an obviously great idea I'm sort of confused no one's apparently tried it yet.

[methodwriter85]

[aradia22]

@lavenderblue The Baxter sounds interesting. Did you enjoy it? I'm wondering if I should do a one-week Sundance trial on amazon so I can watch it. 

Joss Whedon Wonder Woman 2005 script... to be fair it was over 10 years ago... but also Buffy (which I never watched) ran from 1997-2003

http://www.glamour.com/story/unfinished-wonder-woman-script-joss-whedon-twitter

 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/women-of-twitter-roast-joss-whedons-ridiculous-wonder-woman-script_us_5947cf62e4b01eab7a2f19db

Edited June 21, 2017 by aradia22

[methodwriter85]

Another interesting Netflix entry....this is a Brazilian drama called Don't Call Me Son, which follows a genderqueer/pansexual teenager who discover he was kidnapped at birth by his mother:

 

I liked it- it was very fast-paced and it tended to gloss over some thing, but I liked that it didn't really meander. I wish it could have delved a bit more into the topics it touches, but it's nice that the viewer gets to imagine and fill in the blank spots.

And this topic really doesn't get as much play in movies, especially if we're talking about a trans/queer type who doesn't want to become a drag queen.

[VCRTracking]

I don't know why but I suddenly remember when Ron Howard hosted SNL in 1982 and he was in the sketch where he's playing himself and being interviewed by this Eddie Murphy character Raheem Abdul Mohammad:

Quote

Ron Howard: Look, look, Raheem, I'm not Opie Taylor and I'm not Richie Cunningham. I'm Ron Howard, I'm a grown man. You know I'm directing now? Did you see the new movie I have out, "Night Shift"?

Raheem Abdul Mohammed: Was there any black people in it?

Ron Howard: No.

Raheem Abdul Mohammed: I didn't see it, then. What was it about?

Ron Howard: Oh, well, it was, uh, the story about these two pimps.

Raheem Abdul Mohammed: It's the story about two pimps and wasn't no brothers in it? I don't know whether to say "Thank you" or punch you in your mouth, man.

Edited June 22, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Luckylyn]

He makes some good points.   This is a pretty prevalent trope that I had never given thought to before.   I was surprised that Tarzan wasn't included in the list of male versions of the trope.  I disagree with his rationale for why the trope is more commonly female.   I think the reason is that Hollywood tends to cater to the straight male demographic.   I do think innocence can be sexy depending on how it's protrayed.   If the character is so naive that I feel that they are being taken advantage of than it's icky for me.  The way the trope is handled when it's a male or female does differ.  For the male, one feature is his ignorance of the world makes him a nicer guy which makes him more attractive.   Meanwhile when it's the female her naivety is more sexualized.  

 

Exmachina does a great job of taking this trope and twisting it.

[methodwriter85]

5 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

 

He makes some good points.   This is a pretty prevalent trope that I had never given thought to before.   I was surprised that Tarzan wasn't included in the list of male versions of the trope.  I disagree with his rationale for why the trope is more commonly female.   I think the reason is that Hollywood tends to cater to the straight male demographic.   I do think innocence can be sexy depending on how it's protrayed.   If the character is so naive that I feel that they are being taken advantage of than it's icky for me.  The way the trope is handled when it's a male or female does differ.  For the male, one feature is his ignorance of the world makes him a nicer guy which makes him more attractive.   Meanwhile when it's the female her naivety is more sexualized.  

 

Exmachina does a great job of taking this trope and twisting it.

It's kind of creepy when you think about Tom Hanks and Elizabeth Perkins in Big. She doesn't know until after they had sex that he's 13, but yeah, kind of icky. Thankfully 13 Going on 30 just avoids that minefield altogether by keeping Jenna relatively chaste throughout the movie.

You know, Anastasia Steele from 50 Shades of Grey definitely qualifies as Born Sexy Yesterday, in my opinion. She's 22 and has never had any kind of orgasm or sexual experience, before plunging into sexytimes with Christian Grey. In the book, I think it's implied she's never so much as kissed a guy before Jose tries to do it, or use masturbation to achieve an orgasm.

Edited June 25, 2017 by methodwriter85

[lavenderblue]

On 6/21/2017 at 0:01 AM, aradia22 said:

@lavenderblue The Baxter sounds interesting. Did you enjoy it? I'm wondering if I should do a one-week Sundance trial on amazon so I can watch it. 

Joss Whedon Wonder Woman 2005 script... to be fair it was over 10 years ago... but also Buffy (which I never watched) ran from 1997-2003

http://www.glamour.com/story/unfinished-wonder-woman-script-joss-whedon-twitter

 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/women-of-twitter-roast-joss-whedons-ridiculous-wonder-woman-script_us_5947cf62e4b01eab7a2f19db

I liked it pretty well -- it's a kind of dry, quirky experience, which you'd expect given the cast. I'd say it's worth checking out for free, at least!

[Luckylyn]

10 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

It's kind of creepy when you think about Tom Hanks and Elizabeth Perkins in Big. She doesn't know until after they had sex that he's 13, but yeah, kind of icky. Thankfully 13 Going on 30 just avoids that minefield altogether by keeping Jenna relatively chaste throughout the movie.

You know, Anastasia Steele from 50 Shades of Grey definitely qualifies as Born Sexy Yesterday, in my opinion. She's 22 and has never had any kind of orgasm or sexual experience, before plunging into sexytimes with Christian Grey. In the book, I think it's implied she's never so much as kissed a guy before Jose tries to do it, or use masturbation to achieve an orgasm.

50 Shades as a variation on Born Sexy Yesterday is an interesting idea.  The whole virgin with the Alpha guy pairing is a pretty common theme in romance novels.  So Born Sexy Yesterday is pretty pervasive.  

I was thinking that Scarlett Johansen in Her counts as well but that movie has her mature and grow beyond the romance.

[methodwriter85]

12 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

50 Shades as a variation on Born Sexy Yesterday is an interesting idea.  The whole virgin with the Alpha guy pairing is a pretty common theme in romance novels.  So Born Sexy Yesterday is pretty pervasive.  

I was thinking that Scarlett Johansen in Her counts as well but that movie has her mature and grow beyond the romance.

Ruby Sparks has the same conclusion, I believe.

I think "Born Sexy Yesterday" boils down to the idea that we're supposed to want someone pure and childlike because they don't have the emotional baggage that someone with real life experience has. It reminds me of a line I remember from a memoir I read once- that all men want what's fresh and never been had before.

Edited June 26, 2017 by methodwriter85

[Luckylyn]

I think there's an element of optimism that comes from innocence vs cynicism stemming from negative experiences.  The Born Sexy Yesterday can serve as an inspiration to see the world in a better light.  

Wonder Woman manages to fit and defy the trope simultaneously.  She's been isolated and is new to being in our world.  She can be naive in her belief that all people are good and that killing one man would be enough to end all suffering, but she's also very worldly and skilled.   In the scene where Steve feels awkward sleeping beside her, and they have that awesome conversation about pleasure (which the actors ad libbed) she comes off as older, and he's the one who has some things to learn.  Her optimism and Steve's pessimism and how they end up influencing each other is a story arch that works for both.  She learns that people are more complicated than she realized and that evil can't be all blamed on one god while Steve learns to have more hope for saving the future.   Her character development is about her own journey and not making Steven look like the more knowledgeable hero because she is acted and written with depth and both she and Steve can learn from each other.  It's her story with Steve as support and that makes it work.

[Luckylyn]

Lindsay Ellis is currently doing an awesome multi-part film analysis of the Transformers franchise.  The most current episode focuses on The Problem of Lady Robots

[raezen]

I really liked this video about examples of masculinity using Newt from Fantastic Beasts. In this thread on Gender we talk a lot about female representation (and I know I'm largely guilty of that) and very little about representations of masculinity. 

[UYI]

Today is the 25th anniversary of A League of Their Own.  Here is a fun article about the movie.

http://www.espn.com/espnw/feature/19437746/an-oral-history-league-their-own-25th-anniversary

[starri]

So, DC has learned in the past six weeks that people love Wonder Woman.

They release original animated films two or three times a year.  What's next in the hopper?  A Wonder Woman story, you ask?  No, an adaptation of Gotham By Gaslight an--admittedly great--story about Victorian Batman fighting Jack the Ripper.  They do have Batman and Harley Quinn coming up, but one kind of meh Wonder Woman solo movie is literally the only one they've released whose star was a woman.

In the last ten years, they've release 28 movies.  They've had some really great supporting performances for women, from Harley in Assault on Arkham (a better Suicide Squad movie than Suicide Squad), Zatanna in Justice League Dark, and especially Batwoman.  But they can't make a Birds of Prey movie, or Batgirl, or another WW story?

And let's not even talk about The Killing Joke.

[aradia22]

Quote

Today it was announced that comedian Jon Oliver would be joining the cast of the upcoming live-action remake of Disney's The Lion King in the role of Zazu.

Oliver joins a cast that already includes, Donald Glover as Simba. James Earl Jones as Mufasa, and Seth Rogen and Billy Eichner as sidekicks Timon and Pumbaa,

http://www.broadwayworld.com/article/Comedian-John-Oliver-Joins-Upcoming-Disney-Remake-of-THE-LION-KING-20170710

I'm not sure this totally belongs here aside from the fact we've been talking about Disney movies and may have mentioned The Lion King but this casting is just too perfect. I needed to share it. 

[Silver Raven]

Spider Man Homecoming has a really realistic racial mix in the high school.  Kids of all races, teachers of all races, administrators of all races, the movie was really accurate with that.

[topanga]

11 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

Spider Man Homecoming has a really realistic racial mix in the high school.  Kids of all races, teachers of all races, administrators of all races, the movie was really accurate with that.

I totally agree, and even Peter's love interest is a woman of color. And I like that no one felt the need to discuss that Liz and MJ are black (biracial)  

Still, and I know this might sound like sound like sour grapes, but Hollywood is one again reinforcing the belief that according to mainstream movies, the only beautiful, desirable black women in are biracial. I'm not criticizing the young women who were in the movie: the actress playing Liz was good, and I've always liked Zendaya. But it would be nice to sometimes see a dark brown--or even a medium-brown-- actress in a blockbuster. I know Lupita has been in Star Wars and will soon be in Black Panther, but she's only one actress. 

I'd like to see a Riele Downs (Nickelodeon) or Imani Hakim or another black actress get a fair shot. 

Could it be that Hollywood execs are trying to appease the racist comic book fans who lose their shit whenever a person of color is cast in a movie about fictional cartoon characters who live in fictitious worlds? 

[Silver Raven]

Do we know that Zendaya's character is biracial?

[Spartan Girl]

Guy Richie is allegedly having trouble casting Aladdin

It's really hard to find someone that's both Middle Eastern and is a good singer?

Big. Fat. Side-Eye.

[xaxat]

I still wonder why Disney hired Ritchie. Forget about him creating a compelling mythological Middle Eastern tale, he's an Englishman who couldn't get people to see his mythological Arthurian movie.

Edited July 12, 2017 by xaxat

[Spartan Girl]

Maybe Disney can do what they did with the Han Solo movie: Fire the original director and get a better one instead.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Guy Richie is allegedly having trouble casting Aladdin

It's really hard to find someone that's both Middle Eastern and is a good singer?

Big. Fat. Side-Eye.

This is Disney who also couldn't find someone French to play a woman named Belle.

[twoods]

5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Guy Richie is allegedly having trouble casting Aladdin

It's really hard to find someone that's both Middle Eastern and is a good singer?

Big. Fat. Side-Eye.

They can't find one person?! I was reading the comment thread and a lot of people brought up Avan Jogia, who is Indian and sings (he's on a Nick show). I googled him and he's the spitting image of Aladdin. Maybe they want someone a bit older?  Edited because I just found out he's 25. He looks so young. 

And if Oded Fehr is not Jafar, I will throw something. 

Edited July 12, 2017 by twoods

[callie lee 29]

Guy Ritchie directing a Alladin from disney just seems weird over all. Nite grabbed I haven't watched a huge number of his movies but they have all seemed vet testosterone action movies. Maybe the fact that for me animation is fantasia, snow white, Cinderella, etc. Ritchie seems a little "hard" for that type of movie. 

I'm having a real hard time understanding how no one is able to find a middle eastern man who can act, dance, and sing. Isn't that most of Bollywood films have?? Am I just being ignorant here????

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 7/11/2017 at 0:22 AM, Silver Raven said:

Spider Man Homecoming has a really realistic racial mix in the high school.  Kids of all races, teachers of all races, administrators of all races, the movie was really accurate with that.

I'm happy to hear that.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, callie lee 29 said:

 

I'm having a real hard time understanding how no one is able to find a middle eastern man who can act, dance, and sing. Isn't that most of Bollywood films have?? Am I just being ignorant here????

Not to be rude, but  actors in Bollywood/India are Indian and not Middle Eastern.  They're not interchangeable.

And most of the actors aren't singing-they're lip syncing the songs sung by playback singers.

Unless you're saying that Bollywood actors could pass for Middle Eastern?

Edited July 12, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[aradia22]

Quote

Guy Ritchie directing a Alladin from disney just seems weird over all. Nite grabbed I haven't watched a huge number of his movies but they have all seemed vet testosterone action movies. Maybe the fact that for me animation is fantasia, snow white, Cinderella, etc. Ritchie seems a little "hard" for that type of movie. 

I'm having a real hard time understanding how no one is able to find a middle eastern man who can act, dance, and sing. Isn't that most of Bollywood films have?? Am I just being ignorant here????

My best guess here is that they want him as an action director used to a lot of moving pieces. I'm thinking about "One Jump." There might also be a tiny bit of fight choreography and a sort of video game style running around with the Cave of Wonders. Now, I don't think an action director is necessarily the best choice for a big musical number like Prince Ali or A Friend Like Me but it makes more sense than bumping up an indie director who is used to working on small, intimate movies with lots of close ups on the actors. You want someone who can handle a lot of things. Of course, I'm sure it doesn't hurt that he's white and male. 

I don't know the demographic breakdown of everyone who has graduated from an acting program or more specifically a musical theater program. (Though that would be awesome to have and would really help when people have debates about diverse casting.) But if they're really looking, there's got to be someone. I do think that chances are we won't have on the nose casting (putting aside that Agrabah is a fictional place, let's be honest, we've got a fairly good idea of what region of the globe the actor should come from). But, for instance, I saw an off-Broadway show set in Afghanistan and while I don't know the main actor's background, I walked away thinking that if it was still running in a few years, he'd be great as Aladdin on Broadway (they've cast the stage show older). With a bit of coaching, he would be fine for the movie (though he is lighter skinned than even the cartoon appears to be). But still, my point is that there are working actors out there who could do it and I don't see why they wouldn't be auditioning if given the opportunity. It's a high profile role and (as far as I know) there's nothing offensive or demeaning about the role as written.

[callie lee 29]

6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Not to be rude, but  actors in Bollywood/India are Indian and not Middle Eastern.  They're not interchangeable.

And most of the actors aren't singing-they're lip syncing the songs sung by playback singers.

Unless you're saying that Bollywood actors could pass for Middle Eastern?

No nite ride, I thought Bollywood was middle eastern as well as Indian. My bad. 

[Luckylyn]

I would have preferred a director like Danny Boyle or Edgar Wright to direct Aladdin.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Doesn't have to be a white director though.  Could be someone like Mira Nair.  

[Spartan Girl]

15 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

This is Disney who also couldn't find someone French to play a woman named Belle.

I feel like I'm going to get in trouble for saying this, but that's not the same issue here.  

[Luckylyn]

16 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Doesn't have to be a white director though.  Could be someone like Mira Nair.  

I loved Monsoon Wedding.

When I think of possible female directors of color  for Aladdin I think of Gurinder Chada.   I really loved what she did with Bride and Prejudice and Bend It Like Beckham.  

Edited July 13, 2017 by Luckylyn

[Trini]

They were able to cast someone (and understudies) for the Aladdin Broadway show, so this casting "problem" isn't as hard as they think. They might be looking for a 'name'.

[Silver Raven]

Why not Dev  Patel? Or Deniz Akdeniz?

Edited July 12, 2017 by Silver Raven

[twoods]

This guy would work too if they want to go with someone Middle Eastern. <thud> I may have to check out ShadowHunters.

http://shadowhunters.wikia.com/wiki/TV:Jade_Hassouné

[aradia22]

Quote

They were able to cast someone (and understudies) for the Aladdin Broadway show, so this casting "problem" isn't as hard as they think. They might be looking for a 'name'.

I agree that it shouldn't be that difficult. But to be fair, they haven't been casting Middle Eastern actors for Broadway. 

[dusang]

59 minutes ago, twoods said:

This guy would work too if they want to go with someone Middle Eastern. <thud> I may have to check out ShadowHunters.

http://shadowhunters.wikia.com/wiki/TV:Jade_Hassouné

Thank you.

[BoogieBurns]

I don't think Indian actors and Middle Eastern actors are interchangeable. But I think if someone looks the part, they can cast them as a citizen of a fictional location. Unless you guys think we will find an actor from Agrabah. If Michael Jackson's part was cast by a white dude who looked like Michael Jackson, there would have been much less outrage.

Of course they can find someone if they look. They are looking for an unknown. Riz and Dev are likely too expensive. But so damn sexy. I vote for Avan Jogia (Indian and white, not Middle Eastern) To be honest, I just love seeing all of these tall dark and handsome actors on my twitter feed. 

 

[Trini]

On the other hand, the thought did cross my mind that maybe some of the higher caliber Middle Eastern/Indian/etc. actors don't want to be associated with Disney's Aladdin because of representation issues - even if the setting is fictional land?

_________

On a different note; they're remaking this as a musical? I would have thought that Aladdin would be one of those properties that they could adapt into a slightly more grown up action adventure/romance film.

[Spartan Girl]

I heard they are going for a musical, yes.

In fact the original cartoon was derided by Muslim groups because of the use of stereotypes -- original lyrics to "Arabian Nights" were pretty offensive. I just am hoping Disney has learned from those mistakes, especially in our current era.

[Silver Raven]

It's a remake of the Disney animation, being made by Disney, why would it not be a musical?

[Trini]

The Alice in Wonderland and Cinderella remakes weren't. The Mulan remake most likely won't be.

[methodwriter85]

On 7/11/2017 at 4:14 PM, Silver Raven said:

Do we know that Zendaya's character is biracial?

Not that we know of. We don't see her parents in the film. We do see Liz's parents, and she is supposed to be biracial in that.

Quote

Still, and I know this might sound like sound like sour grapes, but Hollywood is one again reinforcing the belief that according to mainstream movies, the only beautiful, desirable black women in are biracial. I'm not criticizing the young women who were in the movie: the actress playing Liz was good, and I've always liked Zendaya. But it would be nice to sometimes see a dark brown--or even a medium-brown-- actress in a blockbuster. I know Lupita has been in Star Wars and will soon be in Black Panther, but she's only one actress. 

I did think to myself, "Oh, I guess Hollywood has a new set of black starlets with obvious European facial features. Rosario Dawson and Zoe Saldana are both getting a bit long in the tooth, after all." I am happy for Laura Harrier- she was Destiny Evans on the short-loved reboot of One Life to Live. It's great to see how far she's gotten in 4 years.

I think Kerry Washington is considered medium brown? Although her career has kind of stalled as of late.

Back to Spiderman...is this the first time we've had a possible love triangle where the man at the center was white and both of the women were black? I've wracked my brain and I can't think of any big mainstream movies where the white male lead had two potential love interests that were both black? I did think the racial mix of the high school seemed much more realistic than the other two iterations of Spiderman.

Gugu Mbatha-Raw...is she considered "lightskin" or "medium brown"? Either way, she's definitely one I'm holding out hopes for. I loved her episode of Black Mirror. She looks to have a pretty busy year coming up, per IMDB.

Edited July 13, 2017 by methodwriter85

[Ms Blue Jay]

San Junipero staring Gugu was nominated for a few Emmys today!

[galax-arena]

Black Panther is reimagining one of its major villains to avoid racial stereotypes. 

Your move, people who defend whitewashing for certain POC villains because "then they'd just be a stereotype"... 

[methodwriter85]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

San Junipero staring Gugu was nominated for a few Emmys today!

Yeah, I'm holding out hope for her. She was amazing in that episode/t.v. movie. I think she has a really good shot at mainstream success.

[LadyAmalthea]

With Guy Ritchie at the helm my expectations for the Aladdin movie are sadly already low, but am side-eyeing the casting reports.  2000 auditions...doesn't seem like a lot?  I think they need to go with an unknown anyway, and most of the "names" they are throwing around seem far too old - I love Riz Ahmed and Dev Patel but I don't think either could pass as eighteen.   

[aradia22]

Quote

M’Baku himself is traditionally depicted wearing a special suit styled after a gorilla.

OK, writer of this article, clearly he's just wearing a gorilla pelt. Like Hercules wore a skinned lion. No need to get so fancy.

But back to the actual article, yes, shockingly when people try and are willing to change the character in smart ways (and not just run away from the problem... see Iron Man 3, Doctor Strange) we don't need whitewashing. Though personally, I'd still prefer if we told new stories instead of trying to resurrect these properties that don't have places for POC (e.g. period pieces) or that have problematic elements (e.g. racist stereotypes). But I get that comics are popular so this is going to continue to be an issue as they need to delve into all these old characters.

Quote

With Guy Ritchie at the helm my expectations for the Aladdin movie are sadly already low, but am side-eyeing the casting reports.  2000 auditions...doesn't seem like a lot? 

https://books.google.com/books?id=JMUUbAw30HgC&pg=PA489&lpg=PA489&dq=auditions+selena&source=bl&ots=Q2tBebg-Lm&sig=xYyQH6EUMHCZ0tzZb3BFKUJ9Ssw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjN59vLhonVAhVE2D4KHY5pADAQ6AEIUTAI#v=onepage&q=auditions selena&f=false (Skip to the paragraph that starts "In March 1996")

Similar account from wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selena_(film)

Quote

Roger Mussenden was hired as casting director, and held casting calls throughout the United States including San Antonio, Texas, Miami, Chicago, New York City, and Los Angeles.[6] Casting calls began on March 16, 1996 and concluded on March 23.[6] Over 21,000 people auditioned for the title role, becoming the second largest audition since the search for Scarlett O'Hara in Gone With the Wind (1939).[9][10] Casting turnouts reached 10,000 in Los Angeles and 5,000 in Chicago, while turnouts reached 8,000 in San Antonio.[6]

Of course they were searching for both a younger and older actress but still, that's likely way more than 2,000 if you were just counting either age group.

[festivus]

19 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

San Junipero staring Gugu was nominated for a few Emmys today!

Awesome. That was my favorite episode.