S02.E03: Baggage

[Ashforth]

19 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Playing devil's advocate - does anyone think that the econo couple just got cold feet and decided to stay away thinking that June would get scared and leave? 

They didn't look like they were too keen to help out.  I mean the guy wanted to leave her at that one place because the other one was compromised. He only took her cause she pushed him too. 

I assumed that because the safe house had been compromised, the people involved had been subjected to "enhanced interrogation" and given up the identities they knew of other rebels. I think the soft-hearted husband who took June to his home is dead, and the wife is being indoctrinated as a Handmaid. The son? Hard to tell. He has no value to Gilead except as a worker bee. 

 

Since the apartment wasn't raided, they must have refused to cooperate for quite a while.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Ashforth

[Umbelina]

6 minutes ago, Ashforth said:

I assumed that because the safe house had been compromised, the people involved had been subjected to "enhanced interrogation" and given up the identities they knew of other rebels. I think the soft-hearted husband who took June to his home is dead, and the wife is being indoctrinated as a Handmaid. The son? Hard to tell. He has no value to Gilead except as a worker bee. 

 

Since the apartment wasn't raided, they must have refused to cooperate for quite a while.

No, they are trapped too.  He's only a cog in the escape machine.  If they had run, they would have probably been there to board that plane.  It's the only other step he knows.

[secnarf]

On 5/2/2018 at 8:14 PM, chocolatine said:

That would be great, but I don't think it's likely. The slideshow of June's mother in the colonies was shown to June and Moira during "training" in the Red Center, three years before the show's present time. June's mother is probably no longer alive.

Didn't we see her at the same 'colony' as Emily?

On 5/4/2018 at 11:36 PM, GreekGeek said:

Did anyone think "Commander Wells' Driver" looked like Nick? For a moment I thought it was Nick running away with June.

YES. I was very confused.

[Kiddvideo]

I'm out. This show is so dark I can't see it. Literally. I raised the light settings on my computer (and my ipad) as high as they'd go, and it's too dark to see what's happening. Also, I don't like June. I don't care about her. I don't care about her past life. I don't care about her affair with a married man, their child, or her mother. And -- going out on a limb here (snark) -- she's not going to die. The show isn't killing off its award-winning lead actress.

I'm single; no children; no pets, and a job that doesn't require a lot of regular overtime. I have quite a bit of free time in my life, and this show isn't worth any of it.

[GreekGeek]

3 minutes ago, secnarf said:

Didn't we see her at the same 'colony' as Emily?

I don't remember if we saw her in Episode 2, but in the slideshow, it looked as if she was on a farm rather than a nuclear waste dump. Farm work, though strenuous, isn't as life threatening, so she might still be alive. Or the "farm" could have been staged, so who knows?

[chocolatine]

51 minutes ago, secnarf said:

Didn't we see her at the same 'colony' as Emily?

We don't know if it's the same colony, but we do know that June and Moira saw her in the slideshow during their "training" at the Red Center, which was about three years before the show's present time. If she was at a toxic waste colony, it's unlikely she would still be alive.

47 minutes ago, GreekGeek said:

I don't remember if we saw her in Episode 2, but in the slideshow, it looked as if she was on a farm rather than a nuclear waste dump. Farm work, though strenuous, isn't as life threatening, so she might still be alive. Or the "farm" could have been staged, so who knows?

That slideshow screamed "Nazi propaganda" to me. The Nazis used to make propaganda films of some of their concentration camps, making them look much more humane than they were.

[lucindabelle]

9 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Unless the Jews were Israeli citizens, I don't think Israel would start a war with Gilead.

Assuming the fertility crisis affected everyone, perhaps most econo-familes were childless?

Actually, all Jews are Israeli citizens or have the right to be.  I could go tomorrow and be taken in. Israel was specifically founded as a Jewish state after the Holocaust. I did not know this myself until I visited. But it is not and does not pretend to be anything but a Jewish state.

 

There is no way  Israel would just sit by and let Jews from other countries be murdered. This is also why Israel rescued Jews from Ethiopia. Of course, this isn’t in the show yet anyway. Have they set the Gilead  wrote a new Bible?

I don’t know about starting a land war. But there would be some kind of retaliation that I have no doubt.

[Umbelina]

The Aunts have quoted things from their Bible that are not in any normal Bible we know today, so yeah, I'd say they changed a bunch of words for Gilead, sticking to the general feel of the King James, but with their own spin on things.  Remember June changing the things the Aunt said into the "old" version of the bible?

We'll see about Israel.  Up until Gilead the USA was quite an ally, now?  They are still quite a force, if we think they kept some of their long distance weapons, which I can't imagine they would give up.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Umbelina

[AllyB]

3 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

There is no way  Israel would just sit by and let Jews from other countries be murdered. This is also why Israel rescued Jews from Ethiopia. Of course, this isn’t in the show yet anyway.

I don't think for one second that the Sons of Jacob would have killed their jewish population because that doesn't fit with their likely religious stance. Sending them to Israel as one of the necessary steps of the second coming makes much more sense. But if nefarious, profit driven shipping companies started throwing their passengers overboard in a bid to get back to Gilead faster and take more paying passengers, there isn't much that Israel could do about it. Israel is heavily dependant on US backing and would not be able to launch any kind of offensive on it's former ally. In fact, without US aid, Israel's own situation becomes far more tenuous, so it's far more likely that Israel is working incredibly hard at maintaining it's own existence and forging new alliances in this universe. Israel is a (likely) nuclear power, so will be holding it's own but the entire balance of power in the middle-east will have changed. Not just in Israel but the kind of environmental issues that preceded Gilead would have had a severe effect on Iran and Saudia Arabia with their oil dependent economies.

The most Israel would realistically be able to do is send their navy into the Atlantic to either transport the Jewish population itself, escort the passenger ships, rescue refugees from the sea or possibly destroy any ships en route back to Gilead if they believed that ship was responsible for dumping refugees which might discourage the practice. The other issue is that if Israel could rescue most of the entire Jewish population, it would cause massive problems in Israel because their population would almost double. (Or maybe more if a lot of people not currently counted as Jewish took advantage of the grandparent rule in order to get out of Gilead, or if Gilead counts anyone with Jewish heritage as Jewish.) Israel is surrounded by desert, in a world experiencing serious climate change problems, that sort of population increase would be devastating.

Ultimately there is very little Israel could do. They might get help from Europe but European countries will also be dealing with their own problems. Both from environmental issues, their own ex-patriot populations fleeing Gilead and even the economic loss of the US as a trading partner. 

[AllyB]

My suspicion (all speculation, not spoilers) is that Omar's family have been taken due to new laws in Gilead against inter-racial marriage. I suspect the family will be declared criminal, Omar will be sent to some sort of colony for people of colour and Heather will of course become a handmaid. The fate of Adam is less obvious. Either he will be placed with an adoptive family or, considering the obvious follow through for such a racist law, he will be sent away with his father or into some sort of orphanage for mixed race children (such places have existed in many countries, like the Stolen Generations in Australia). Of course this means that Hannah would also be very likely to face the same fate. It might be an interesting way to tie June and Heather together as they would be more desperate than ever to save their children. As it's one thing to have your child forcibly adopted to someone who will cherish them and another to think of them in some awful form of internment. It would also give June some sort of personal purpose to be back in Gilead, as maybe her "deal" with Serena (your baby is safe so long as mine is) will serve to buy Hannah time.

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, AllyB said:

I don't think for one second that the Sons of Jacob would have killed their jewish population because that doesn't fit with their likely religious stance.

The religious stance is just a front that they use to indoctrinate their useful idiots (such as Aunt Lydia). Their true motivation is power and control.

[AllyB]

1 hour ago, chocolatine said:

The religious stance is just a front that they use to indoctrinate their useful idiots (such as Aunt Lydia). Their true motivation is power and control.

Of course it is. But they are also very aware of optics. At the time that they would have been expelling the Jewish population their hold would have been less tight than it is now and the last thing they'd have wanted to risk was a sudden uprising of ordinary people. Sending the Jewish people to Israel to fulfill one of the steps that must precede the second coming would have had the believers whipped into a joyous frenzy. While ordinary people would have thought it was a crappy thing to do but not that bad really on the scale of things. Some people, especially LGBT and women, might have had feelings that included serious envy at the get out of Gilead card they'd just been given.

Actually, in terms of the ordinary people rising up. I wonder what happened to gun control. No way would any of the econopeople be allowed firearms (apart from the men who have Guardian jobs). So I assume that the second amendment was ripped up along with the rest of the constitution. That must have sucked for many Gilead followers!

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, AllyB said:

Of course it is. But they are also very aware of optics. At the time that they would have been expelling the Jewish population their hold would have been less tight than it is now and the last thing they'd have wanted to risk was a sudden uprising of ordinary people. Sending the Jewish people to Israel to fulfill one of the steps that must precede the second coming would have had the believers whipped into a joyous frenzy. While ordinary people would have thought it was a crappy thing to do but not that bad really on the scale of things. Some people, especially LGBT and women, might have had feelings that included serious envy at the get out of Gilead card they'd just been given.

Actually, in terms of the ordinary people rising up. I wonder what happened to gun control. No way would any of the econopeople be allowed firearms (apart from the men who have Guardian jobs). So I assume that the second amendment was ripped up along with the rest of the constitution. That must have sucked for many Gilead followers!

They had total control of the press, they didn't give a shit about optics.

The people DID rise up, and some still ARE rising up.  They mowed protesters down with machine guns.  The "wars" in the "colonies" are all against US people who have risen up and are fighting.

They did send them, but again, they had total control, there was no free press, Gilead has always been under martial law.  The "people" who by now were all terrified for their own lives and well being couldn't possibly know what happened to Jews that immigrated to Israel, or that most never made it.

They murdered all of the gender traitors, or sent them to the colonies, or forced the women to be handmaids.

They suspended all of the constitution, that would include removing guns.  Regular guns would be practically useless against US Military weapons, tanks, drones, bombs.  However in the many on-going wars west of Gilead, in areas where Gorilla Wars could be useful, or snipers had an advantage, ordinary people's guns ARE being used, probably along with other US Military weapons from defectors as well as things captured by those refusing Gilead.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Umbelina

[Umbelina]

7 hours ago, AllyB said:

I don't think for one second that the Sons of Jacob would have killed their jewish population because that doesn't fit with their likely religious stance. Sending them to Israel as one of the necessary steps of the second coming makes much more sense. But if nefarious, profit driven shipping companies started throwing their passengers overboard in a bid to get back to Gilead faster and take more paying passengers, there isn't much that Israel could do about it. Israel is heavily dependant on US backing and would not be able to launch any kind of offensive on it's former ally. In fact, without US aid, Israel's own situation becomes far more tenuous, so it's far more likely that Israel is working incredibly hard at maintaining it's own existence and forging new alliances in this universe. Israel is a (likely) nuclear power, so will be holding it's own but the entire balance of power in the middle-east will have changed. Not just in Israel but the kind of environmental issues that preceded Gilead would have had a severe effect on Iran and Saudia Arabia with their oil dependent economies.

The most Israel would realistically be able to do is send their navy into the Atlantic to either transport the Jewish population itself, escort the passenger ships, rescue refugees from the sea or possibly destroy any ships en route back to Gilead if they believed that ship was responsible for dumping refugees which might discourage the practice. The other issue is that if Israel could rescue most of the entire Jewish population, it would cause massive problems in Israel because their population would almost double. (Or maybe more if a lot of people not currently counted as Jewish took advantage of the grandparent rule in order to get out of Gilead, or if Gilead counts anyone with Jewish heritage as Jewish.) Israel is surrounded by desert, in a world experiencing serious climate change problems, that sort of population increase would be devastating.

Ultimately there is very little Israel could do. They might get help from Europe but European countries will also be dealing with their own problems. Both from environmental issues, their own ex-patriot populations fleeing Gilead and even the economic loss of the US as a trading partner. 

The Jewish people were allowed to convert to the Giliad religion or leave for Israel.  Devout Christians (although Gilead certainly is a perverted version of Christianity, and the Bibles are different) have murdered millions of Jews before, many times over the ages.

I seriously doubt Israel's navy could stand up to the former USA Navy.  Israel joined in the world wide boycott, since all but Mexico has (in show canon, in the book, everyone boycotted Gilead.)

Gilead didn't seem to care what their heritage was, only if they would convert to the new state religion, unless possibly because some females might be of child-bearing age, and of course, any intelligentsia at all was not welcome.  They might not be hung because they were Jewish (provided they gave up their religion) but they would be hung or shot because they had been scientists, professors, doctors, writers, etc.

I'd imagine the whole world was in shock once the truth began to come out, horrified really.

[secnarf]

18 hours ago, chocolatine said:

We don't know if it's the same colony, but we do know that June and Moira saw her in the slideshow during their "training" at the Red Center, which was about three years before the show's present time. If she was at a toxic waste colony, it's unlikely she would still be alive.

That is not what I was referring to - I was referring to the scenes at the colony with Emily. A woman who looked a lot like June's mom was in several scenes - wondering if it could be the same person. The photo at the top of this article shows the woman I am referring to.

[bijoux]

Do you mean one of the women in the back? Because the one next to Emily is definitely not her. I wouldn’t be surprised to find her there for storytelling purposes. That’s if she’s still alive.

[Pachengala]

On 5/6/2018 at 4:52 PM, chocolatine said:

I think that depends whether the Waterfords or other Gilead brass have figured out that Nick was the one who helped her escape. If they don't suspect, and Nick continues to work for them, I think he'll try looking for a way to help her escape again.

He’s been able to visit June fairly regularly without being followed or otherwise jeopardizing her hideout so they at least don’t suspect him enough to tail him or question him, which for me is problematic. Serena Joy should have clocked him as suspicious the second June went missing—he’s the father! 

[marinw]

I usually like to be spoiler free, but this show is an exception.  I need to know what is going to happen or else I can’t handle it.

Oh show, I wish I could quit you!

[bijoux]

I actually really try to avoid spoilers because I’m not sure I want to prolong the torture. Even now, I’m doing my bets to stay away from the latest episode thread because I get the episodes about two days later.

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, Pachengala said:

He’s been able to visit June fairly regularly without being followed or otherwise jeopardizing her hideout so they at least don’t suspect him enough to tail him or question him, which for me is problematic. Serena Joy should have clocked him as suspicious the second June went missing—he’s the father! 

I think Nick has other duties as an Eye, we did see him meet with another commander for orders at least once, and he helps supply Jezebel's.  I'd like to know that too, just how free is Nick to come and go, certainly more than any woman, that's for sure.

Serena has to tread very carefully there, or she could end up handing at the square.  If for example, she were even to say "I saw a glance between them once" she would be in serious trouble for not reporting that at the time.  She certainly couldn't imply that she for one moment thought there was a relationship between Nick and June and didn't say anything. 

[marinw]

There are a lot of econowives! This supports the theory that the problem is with male sperm. 

So what happens if the wife of a commander becomes pregnant, and is not as “barren” as previously thought? Even if sex between wife and commander is forbidden, such a rule is impossible to enforce. Or an unsatisfied wife may get together with a driver or some other man in a Commander’s employ.

[Umbelina]

13 minutes ago, marinw said:

There are a lot of econowives! This supports the theory that the problem is with male sperm. 

So what happens if the wife of a commander becomes pregnant, and is not as “barren” as previously thought? Even if sex between wife and commander is forbidden, such a rule is impossible to enforce. Or an unsatisfied wife may get together with a driver or some other man in a Commander’s employ.

They'd probably both be killed and the baby reassigned. 

It's a grave sin to have sex unless you are trying for a child, and the wives have been deemed barren, so those couple's are no longer allowed to have sex.  EVER.

[AngelaHunter]

I'm so confused. June was in the warehouse for two months and ends up in Omar's apartment because the "safe house" is no longer safe? The tenants never return that day, she takes off walking, gets on the train then heads into cornfields and miraculously ends up where the plane lands and in all that time, she's still in the place from which she originally escaped? So all this transporting and hiding and begging was for nothing? Pointless? Maybe I'm just stupid or obtuse?

[nodorothyparker]

I think we're to understand she's still in the greater Boston area.  Nick said in an earlier episode that every way out of the city was being too heavily watched to risk it.  So yeah, all that moving and hiding and subterfuge and she never made it any farther than that.

7 hours ago, Pachengala said:

He’s been able to visit June fairly regularly without being followed or otherwise jeopardizing her hideout so they at least don’t suspect him enough to tail him or question him, which for me is problematic. Serena Joy should have clocked him as suspicious the second June went missing—he’s the father! 

At this point, I don't feel like we know enough about Nick's comings and goings from that house to determine whether it's unusual he wasn't missed or not.  He lives over the garage, so separate entrance and probably not as closely kept tabs on.  We also know he deals black market for places like Jezebels and Commander Fred seems to trust him with being in on his less than official activities, so it's probably not a stretch to think he's given at least some leeway.

It's not like Serena can admit that she knows Nick is the likely father or even that he and June might have any kind of relationship without risking outing herself and her role in making it happen.  And even if she could, naming Nick as the potential father undercuts the entire handmaid setup where everybody agrees to pretend that the commanders and wives are these children's true parents and the people who genetically produced and birthed them don't exist.  And as such, they certainly don't have any feelings about it.

[Anela]

58 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I'm so confused. June was in the warehouse for two months and ends up in Omar's apartment because the "safe house" is no longer safe? The tenants never return that day, she takes off walking, gets on the train then heads into cornfields and miraculously ends up where the plane lands and in all that time, she's still in the place from which she originally escaped? So all this transporting and hiding and begging was for nothing? Pointless? Maybe I'm just stupid or obtuse?

Oh! Just wanted to say hi. From TWD board. :) 

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I'm so confused. June was in the warehouse for two months and ends up in Omar's apartment because the "safe house" is no longer safe? The tenants never return that day, she takes off walking, gets on the train then heads into cornfields and miraculously ends up where the plane lands and in all that time, she's still in the place from which she originally escaped? So all this transporting and hiding and begging was for nothing? Pointless? Maybe I'm just stupid or obtuse?

It opened up the world of Gilead for us, both the history, which June barely grasped until she was putting all of those early newspaper clippings into a logical order.  It showed us the world of the Resistance, of Mayday, and of the Econofamilies.

It wasn't 'miraculous' finding that airfield.  She had that map.  She followed the other women to hide in a group, when they got on a train, she did, and tried to match the stops to her map, in spite of no street signs.  We've learned a great deal more about Gilead from June's attempted escape.  June's also learned a great deal more, which could make an eventual escape less problematic.  She's got some experience now, and her eyes were opened in that Newspaper office to many things.

[AngelaHunter]

13 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It wasn't 'miraculous' finding that airfield.  She had that map.  She followed the other women to hide in a group, when they got on a train, she did, and tried to match the stops to her map, in spite of no street signs. 

Thank you. It just seemed improbable to me that someone who ducked into a forest with no landmarks or signs and ran through what seemed endless cornfields could find her way to the exact spot of the plane landing. I know how very easy it is to get lost in the woods. I did it myself, foolishly, and in a very small wood. It took me hours to find my way out and I ended up nowhere close to where I thought I would be. June must have one hell of a sense of direction. Of course, I could get lost in a phonebooth so what do I know?

 

1 hour ago, Anela said:

Oh! Just wanted to say hi. From TWD board. :) 

Howdy! I'm enjoying (not sure "enjoying" is the right word. Not big on torture.) this show - the only one I watch now - more than I am TWD!

[Umbelina]

 

The inside the episode for this one.

[PamelaMaeSnap]

On 5/7/2018 at 6:07 AM, marinw said:

I read somewhere that on this show she was a doctor at the abortion clinic. Was this mae clear in the epsiode? In any case, that was a horrible way for June to find out what happened to her.

 

Am I misremembering or didn't we already see the mom alive (and more wrinkled and sun-worn and blonde) in the Colonies in the earlier episode when Ofglen is sent there? So while June doesn't know, WE'VE known not only that she was sent there but that in fact she is still alive (or at least alive when Ofglen was shipped out -- wouldn't that be significantly more recently than the scene in which June and Moira see the film?)

Or again I may be mixing up what happened when in my befuddled brain.

ETA because I posted this while I was reading P3 and it is brought up and discussed here on P4 ... I will go back and check but I had thought we caught a glimpse of a woman I THOUGHT was June's mom in the Colonies with Ofglen working in the field ... NOT the woman in the shot linked above where they're standing together ... and I believe I asked about that in that episode discussion thread and that someone confirmed it was her mom. 

That said, it could ABSOLUTELY have been the woman (not-mom) in that other photo next to her but in a different scene.

Edited May 10, 2018 by PamelaMaeSnap

[Sbeetle]

1 hour ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

Am I misremembering or didn't we already see the mom alive (and more wrinkled and sun-worn and blonde) in the Colonies in the earlier episode when Ofglen is sent there?

No, that was a different actress, though she did look similar. 

[PamelaMaeSnap]

2 hours ago, Sbeetle said:

No, that was a different actress, though she did look similar. 

Thank you!!! 

[JasonCC]

Related to the conversation above; the Econwife's contemptuous comment to June about "I'd die before leaving my child"; and the soldier who helped hang gender traitors even though he was gay himself: I imagine what my line would be as a (gay) male. Then, I remember years ago I had insurance as a same sex domestic partner via my ex (during a period when I was temping and didn't have my own healthcare plan). And, I plan on marrying my current partner in 2019. I wouldn't have a choice or a line in the sand--there are too many records marking me a gender traitor. I'd just be rounded up and killed. The legal rights granted over the last couple decades would perversely provide Gilead with an easy homosexual extermination list.

I seem to remember in the book (before full-fledged Gilead) it was said some of Moira's lesbian friends were hastily marrying their gay male friends because of the money being frozen/political fear.

Edited May 11, 2018 by JasonCC

[Scarlett45]

12 hours ago, JasonCC said:

Related to the conversation above; the Econwife's contemptuous comment to June about "I'd die before leaving my child"; and the soldier who helped hang gender traitors even though he was gay himself: I imagine what my line would be as a (gay) male. Then, I remember years ago I had insurance as a same sex domestic partner via my ex (during a period when I was temping and didn't have my own healthcare plan). And, I plan on marrying my current partner in 2019. I wouldn't have a choice or a line in the sand--there are too many records marking me a gender traitor. I'd just be rounded up and killed. The legal rights granted over the last couple decades would perversely provide Gilead with an easy homosexual extermination list.

I seem to remember in the book (before full-fledged Gilead) it was said some of Moira's lesbian friends were hastily marrying their gay male friends because of the money being frozen/political fear.

Yup.

 

I do recall reading that there was fear in the gay community during the late 1980s/early 90s regarding getting testing/treatment for HIV because of being identified as gay (of course any human being can get HIV). 

[marinw]

So Gilead’s State religion is a heavily modified and f*cked up version of Christianity. But on the Aunt Lydia or other authority figures never mentions Christ. (Unless I missed something)

[AmandaUnbidden]

On 5/9/2018 at 4:06 PM, marinw said:

There are a lot of econowives! This supports the theory that the problem is with male sperm. 

So what happens if the wife of a commander becomes pregnant, and is not as “barren” as previously thought? Even if sex between wife and commander is forbidden, such a rule is impossible to enforce. Or an unsatisfied wife may get together with a driver or some other man in a Commander’s employ.

I think it would depend which commander it is and how much power he has over the others. A lower level commander, yeah baby reassigned maybe and commander and wife punished. A higher up commander with a lot of power? Maybe he could sway the others to believing some lie like that they never had sex. The pregnancy was a true miracle from God! 

And this is assuming all commanders are not equal. Actually, the more I think about it, I think all the commanders might be on a equal level. And actually scratch what I just wrote. I think any of the commanders that are respected enough by the others might be able to pull off the miracle cover story.

But what would probably happen is that the commander in question would end up trying to throw his wife under the bus and say she seduced him with her “evil womanly ways”, and the other commanders would have mercy on him. Actually that’s probably exactly how it would play out. Give those guys an opportunity to stick it to the women around them, and they will.

[AmandaUnbidden]

14 hours ago, marinw said:

So Gilead’s State religion is a heavily modified and f*cked up version of Christianity. But on the Aunt Lydia or other authority figures never mentions Christ. (Unless I missed something)

The reason they don’t mention Christ is because it’s exactly that, a fucked up version of Christianity.

The Bible, or really any religious text like it, can be interpreted in so many different ways or passages can be taken out of context and highlighted to take on a whole new meaning than was originally intended. Happens all the time. People will use passages or just lines of texts to suit whatever their agenda is.

Christians that truly follow the Bible would never disregard Jesus and his most important rule, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” and “Love your neighbor as yourself”. Unfortunately they’re are a lot of very flawed humans that use religion and fear to control.

That’s what can make organized religion so dangerous. Especially when you teach the children never to question God or whatever holy book you are teaching them. Children especially, but also adults should always be taught and encouraged to question everything. After all, if you are someone who believes in a God that created us, then you should believe he/she/they gave us a brain and the freedom of thought with the intention that we would use it.

[marinw]

1 hour ago, AmandaUnbidden said:

Christians that truly follow the Bible would never disregard Jesus and his most important rule, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” and “Love your neighbor as yourself”. Unfortunately they’re are a lot of very flawed humans that use religion and fear to control.

See also: The Spanish Inquisition and the Salam Witch Trials.

Edited May 13, 2018 by marinw

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, marinw said:

See also: The Spanish Inquisition and the Salam Witch Trials.

Nazi Germany as well.  We are seeing it right now in this country, and obviously the "do unto others" part is being ignored, and the "love thy neighbor as thy self" as well, as many bible and Jesus verses about the poor, the sick, the hungry.

It's not far-fetched at all.

[AmandaUnbidden]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Nazi Germany as well.  We are seeing it right now in this country, and obviously the "do unto others" part is being ignored, and the "love thy neighbor as thy self" as well, as many bible and Jesus verses about the poor, the sick, the hungry.

It's not far-fetched at all.

 Yeah I don’t think I explained myself well. I was trying not to make a blanket statement that all Christians, or really any religious people for that matter, are dangerous or have dangerous ideas just because they adhere to a religion. I think the problem really comes in when people are taught not to question God or their preacher or their bible etc but to just blindly believe. That’s where the danger comes in. Turning a blind eye, ignoring your own gut instincts that something is amiss, stamping down any questions or doubts you may have about something because you believe you’ll go to hell, be damned, etc. 

That’s one reason Evangelical Christians like Mike Pence and people like the Duggars are so scary. I could definitely see people like them creating a world like Gilead, no question. They’d love it! And the fact that these people have worked so hard to find places in government makes them all the more scary.  One thing that makes this show and the book so much scarier and prevalent to the times we are living in now. 

So alll that to say, I think we’re on the same page, I just worded some things poorly before. I definitely see what you guys are saying and agree with you 100%.

[marinw]

On 5/9/2018 at 6:20 PM, Umbelina said:

They'd probably both be killed and the baby reassigned. 

It's a grave sin to have sex unless you are trying for a child, and the wives have been deemed barren, so those couple's are no longer allowed to have sex.  EVER.

Stupid. There may be Commanders and Wives who actually love each other, and are going along to maintain privledge and a tiny semblance of normalcy.

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, marinw said:

Stupid. There may be Commanders and Wives who actually love each other, and are going along to maintain privledge and a tiny semblance of normalcy.

All of Gilead is stupid.  Also?  Possible.

[JohnnyRotten]

On 2018-05-03 at 5:33 PM, chaifan said:

 

I understand June's explanation.  But in a society where the upper class/elite are barren, I'm surprised that any fertile woman - even those that play by the rules - aren't conscripted into the handmaid service.  It doesn't appear there are enough handmaids for the upper class families, so I just assumed that any fertile woman would be fair game. 

Remember, there are hardly any barren women in Gilead. It's the men who can't conceive. 

[marinw]

2 hours ago, JohnnyRotten said:

Remember, there are hardly any barren women in Gilead. It's the men who can't conceive. 

Spoiler

I re-read the Book. There are some wives who are able to have children (a few of the husbands aren't shooting blanks), and they are allowed to do so. 

[LeGrandElephant]

Doesn’t June have stuff she wants to take with her from around the building, useful items? Idiot, just walking out in the clothes she’s wearing. June often acts and speaks in a very slow and dramatic way instead of a practical way, given the circumstances she’s in. 

 

Glad they brought in June’s mom and her history there from the book. I really liked the line about how this stuff was always there in American society, people just didn’t notice it... well, some people noticed it, feminists noticed and tried to raise awareness of it. That kind of thing is much more interesting than yet more scenes of handmaids being tortured in illogically brutal ways (illogical because they supposedly want them to have babies and severe stress and torture will obviously make that much less likely). 

 

I didn’t really get why June’s mom and her friends were so against her publishing job. And her mom being against her getting married... didn’t seem like very good reasons she gave. I was expecting “he cheated with you, he’ll cheat on you,” not “you can’t get married when there are political issues to fight”. How about at least “marry someone who is passionate about fighting for your rights” rather than “don’t give your energy and passion to a man”. But I guess her mom isn’t supposed to be perfect either.

 

Where do I recognize the actress who played Omar’s wife Heather from? And I think she was much thinner than June, unlikely her dress would fit June so well. Maybe would have been better to crop her hair and take Omar’s clothes, but maybe she figured her face couldn’t pass as a man’s. 

 

I get that it’s heart wrenching for June to leave Hannah but logically she has a much better chance at getting her back if she makes it to Canada and gets involved with resistance groups instead of being on the run for her life. 

 

I hate extended scenes of TV characters driving and not looking at the road because they’re having a moment with the passenger. Watch the road!

 

Oh man, I thought she’d be making it to Canada. So ready for a change in the narrative structure of this show. They could have had her escape and then go back as part of a mission to infiltrate and rescue Hannah (actually, Luke is the one who should be doing that). 

 

When we saw Moira in the nightclub it immediately reminded me of Jezebel’s and I wondered why she’d want to hang out in a place like that. And then it clearly wasn’t working very well for her.

She can, but it might lead to a miscarriage. Unclear how much she cares about the pregnancy, though. I thought she was going on foot, until she ended up at the airfield. 

[Beatriceblake]

I loved the start of this episode and how June running in a circle round her shrine was mirrored in the way Moira ran round the shrine in Little America. It was also creepy, in a those who were living are now dead kind of way.

Reading the comments lots of people don't agree but I felt like June really did the best she could to escape here (other than looking at the map on the train which wasn't worth the risk). I can see why she didn't sit waiting in the apartment of giant windows when the family never returned. Also I wonder if the little boy looking back at the window tipped one of the guards off? The whole vibe of that scene reminded me of things I read about Jewish people being caught in hiding during the Holocaust. She only knew the safe house was compromised, not the airfield. Plus her options were pretty limited by the time she tried fleeing to the airfield. She had no way to blend into society without being caught and it has been established escaping on foot or by car is tricky.

One thing I found frustrating about this episode was how little time Moira got in it and how fragmented her story was. It was like the middle section was cut out.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Beatriceblake

[DrSparkles]

On 5/3/2018 at 9:17 AM, Catfi9ht said:

Thanks for the explanation. With all the beautiful world building this show does, I wonder why they didn't bother explaining that in the show yet or did they and I forgot or missed it?

 

My main issue with the show is the fact that part of the United States is essentially a nuclear wasteland. I have a hard time believing the US would let that occur outside of nuclear detonation. Without getting too political here, even those people and politicians who don't believe in protecting the environment seem to be capitalists at heart. Losing the ability to farm parts of the US would be a loss of revenue and export income since we supply a huge part of the world's food supply. I know we've heard Patty's explanation a bunch of times about how people ruined the planet, but has the show actually explained how and when it happened? I don't remember it being talked shown or discussed in the flashbacks. What makes the most sense, in my mind, is the Gileadians used nuclear weapons to cement their power and deter future uprisings and of course, are spinning the story however they want. My apologies if this has been covered in a previous thread.

 

One thing I do love about the show is it makes me think "Where would that line be for me?" with regards to nut jobs taking over the government and slowly changing the laws to take away rights. Would I choose to fight? What would be that line in the sand where I would begin to fight or want to flee? 

It’s pretty much NOW for me.

[scrb]

On 5/3/2018 at 12:24 PM, Umbelina said:

I think the show has done a pretty good job of showing us what those clippings were about, but yeah, it would have been so cool to be able to read them!

Martial Law was declared immediately after Congress and the President were killed, and it was blamed on Muslim extremists.  After 9-11 patriotism and a banding together seemed to rise, not fall. 

If you were very close to a border you might be able to leave before everything was closed, but most of the USA isn't really close to borders, unless the oceans count, and even then, you'd need a boat, or private plane. 

From that airport scene, it seems they were only letting non-USA citizens leave, but it was chaotic, so we don't know for sure.  With Martial Law, I'm kind of assuming all travel would be restricted, and the regular border crossings difficult, but if one had a car and knew back roads, getting to Mexico or Canada may have worked by car, then again, they could easily close all gas stations.  For women, you would also have no money of your own to spend for buying gas, so you'd have to have a man with you.

It gets messy and scary to think about.

Martial law declared by whom?

So they killed all the political leaders quickly and then what, the whole country surrendered and let the Commanders assume control over all the military, ICE and other quasi police and soldiers?

That gay soldier who made it to Canada said his army unit quickly became Guardians and they were killing sinners like a guy whom he dated in college.  Usually, soldiers serve first then go to college, not the other way around?

In any event, why did he troops and ICE personnel quickly start executing Gilead’s agenda and laws?  Maybe a lot of them were sympathetic to the fucked up ideology which drove the Sons of Jacob and Gilead.  But it wouldn’t be all of them.

There would have to be some charismatic leader to get them to buy into the ideology, not just once Gilead was established but before the US was conquered.  This guy would have to have been in the media for years, so that these ideas gained traction and then when things started to break down, they’d have millions of converts ready to carry out the work of making this screwed up world a reality.

You’d think there would be a lot of deserters, not just the guy who made it to Canada or the driver who was on that plane.

[Hanahope]

1 hour ago, scrb said:

o they killed all the political leaders quickly and then what, the whole country surrendered and let the Commanders assume control over all the military, ICE and other quasi police and soldiers?

My guess is there was a cabinet member in the line of succession who was part of the Gilead movement, and when the President, Congress and others were "attacked/killed by terrorists" that cabinet member was able to assume the presidency (See, e.g. Designated Survivor) and was able to quickly impose a martial law, a la the Patriot Act via executive order.  While that went into effect, the new president, plus other Gilead people who had moved into various government positions, were able to appoint more and more people sympathetic to their cause, and under the guise of the Patriot Act, were able to impose more and more restrictions on people, until they had enough control over government to really make the sweeping changes we see at the time of the book.

[Umbelina]

On 3/1/2019 at 9:35 AM, Hanahope said:

On 3/1/2019 at 8:02 AM, scrb said:

o they killed all the political leaders quickly and then what, the whole country surrendered and let the Commanders assume control over all the military, ICE and other quasi police and soldiers?

My guess is there was a cabinet member in the line of succession who was part of the Gilead movement, and when the President, Congress and others were "attacked/killed by terrorists" that cabinet member was able to assume the presidency (See, e.g. Designated Survivor) and was able to quickly impose a martial law, a la the Patriot Act via executive order.  While that went into effect, the new president, plus other Gilead people who had moved into various government positions, were able to appoint more and more people sympathetic to their cause, and under the guise of the Patriot Act, were able to impose more and more restrictions on people, until they had enough control over government to really make the sweeping changes we see at the time of the book.

Yes, the fundamentalist Christian Gilead coup had people who planned and carried out the coup well placed in government and in the military and other key positions.

They blamed "Islamic terrorists" and in patriotic fever, much like, but more severe than, the 9-11 aftermath, many citizens, just as then, willingly gave up their constitutional rights.

I'm sure there were some deserters, but most cannon fodder would simply follow orders and be thinking they were heroes united against the "terrorist foreigner 'attack.'" 

https://the-handmaids-tale.fandom.com/wiki/Republic_of_Gilead

[Hava]

I'm just watching this show now and just finished watching this episode (so please no spoilers!).

June's movements are so frustrating--she walks slowly when she needs to move quickly, she doesn't hide in the safehouses, she makes noise when she's told to stay quiet, etc. I can't tell if we are supposed to take this as part of her character or if it is just a directing choice so the audience doesn't get bored with a careful June.

The Nick/June romance is completely lost on me. It feels so unnecessary to the story. I've read other views on the romance stating that it is a way for June to reclaim her power and it shows that, even at our lowest, humans are craving connection, but--and I really hope this does not sound as though I am being anti-consensual sex which I am definitely not--I just feel that this story doesn't need it, at least at this point in the story. Maybe because with such heavy themes already going on, romance isn't important to me in the least. 

That's why the ending of this episode was so disappointing to me--it really felt like the only reason June was caught, story-wise, is so she can be reunited with Nick (and, therefore, the series is falling into the worst trap other shows do where they concentrate to heavily on the main couple). That's how the ending honestly felt to me, because I do think there would still be a lot of story left to tell if she was not caught.