S02.E09: Alone

[TheGourmez]

I do wish the last two episodes had gone on without the not-so-subtle sexual abuse suggestion and the needless Antonio suicide attempt. I'm okay with having Andrew kill himself in the midst of the swat team's attack, acceptable dramatic license for me, but those two inclusions soured the overall whole. I will rewatch - such beautiful shots & framing throughout this finale, but those two elements stopped me from being fully blow away. I would also have liked a tribute to the victims for the final frame, as a final undercutting of Andrew's importance.

Edited March 23, 2018 by TheGourmez

[txhorns79]

Quote

I think a spouse would generally get at least a quarter of the deceased's estate, which would probably be substantially more than what Antonio got.

It depends on the state and the will, but my point was more that Gianni could have chosen to do more for Antonio, as he essentially gave his niece shares that I think ended up being worth around 800,000,000, but purposefully did not do so. 

[dubbel zout]

It goes to show how important a well-written estate plan is.

[CeeBeeGee]

2 hours ago, candall said:

I have all nine hours, unwatched, on my DVR.  So I slipped in here to scan the comments and see whether the show was good, or great, or I could reclaim the space. 

This post was such a loving, angry affirmation, it made me cry.

Thank you. I am angry. Angry at Modesto for turning his son into a monster in his own image; angry at Andrew who was given SO MUCH--who could've been someone if he'd just worked a little bit, and deployed his great intelligence. He had friends, he had gifts, he had options. He could have created something great, left a positive legacy. But he chose instead to destroy, to annihilate.

The more I read about Madson and Trail, the sadder I feel. They were just so decent, so solid. Miglin was this sweet older gentleman who was a great success and Andrew went way out of his way to humiliate him beyond death. Reese was just this family man and a hard worker but Andrew didn't give a shit. What is family to him? Who cares about honest work? That poor guy; his poor family. And murdering someone by shooting their face (Versace as well as Madson) speaks to such hatred--what the hell inspired that? GodDAMN the FBI and MPD for dragging their feet on this.

It is such a waste.

[Florinaldo]

15 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

It is such a waste.

An excellent summary of the events portrayed. A waste not only of those killed, but also of the many lives irremediably affected by the murders, or by AC's actions and those of his father.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Florinaldo

[mojoween]

My parents 52nd anniversary was December 19.  On December 17 and 19 I was going to go to their house but for whatever reason got too busy and planned to go there on Christmas since we were already going there.  My father was killed in a car accident on December 21.

If that anecdote Donatella gave about ignoring Gianni’s phone call was true, I feel for her.  I absolutely know what she meant. 

Now if it was all just dramatic license well screw you Ryan for making me cry.

Darren Criss looks super fine with a buzz cut.  I feel creepy thinking that.

I also loved how many different ways they pronounced Cunanan.  I do feel badly though because his mother and siblings don’t deserve disrespect just because they have familial relationship with that monster.

The dog food made me gag too.  It looked like the corned beef hash my son and husband enjoy which I also find revolting.

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

It depends on the state and the will, but my point was more that Gianni could have chosen to do more for Antonio, as he essentially gave his niece shares that I think ended up being worth around 800,000,000, but purposefully did not do so. 

I agree. Donatella's behavior might not be admirable, but Gianni is the one who didn't provide for Antonio properly in his will. Gianni could have easily left Antonio one of his many properties where they lived together and a lump sum in a trust. He chose not to, maybe he didn't because he was ambivalent about his feelings for Antonio.

[Silly Angel]

On 3/22/2018 at 2:09 PM, Glade said:

From the first episode I feared that this is was what would happen to Gianni's partner; there was no mention of a will even, and of course Donatella spent ep1 freely venting her straight privilege, casually denying him the kind of respect, legitimacy and consideration that would be automatically given if Gianni had a wife.  It was very painful to watch, because the same thing happened to me three years ago when my long-term boyfriend died suddenly.  His family inherited a very valuable estate, while I was snubbed at the funeral and thrown out of our home with nothing despite the fact that I was dependent on him at the time due to a chronic illness.  I was told that I only thought we had a relationship, and 'I wish you luck with whatever it is that you're planning for your future.'  The fact that gay marriage is legal doesn't change the culture that still allows people behave this way whenever they can get away with it.

I am so sorry to hear that, Glade. I just finished bingeing the season and was struck in the heart-place by the treatment of Antonio. It's not often Ryan Murphy can make complicated points with relative, long-game subtlety, but this was beautifully done. To me, it was how a vicious expression of how the law and the culture perceived gay relationships before marriage equality. Not that I'm claiming everything is peachy for spouses now, but it looked as if, to them, same-sex companionship was just a sliding scale of the same unsavory thing. Hustling low means AC cut off by Norman, beginning his descent; hustling high means Antonio left with no rights, no claim on the man he spent 13 years with. Without law to protect the likes of Antonio, it's all hustling. Makes me sick.

Lizzie also grossed me out from her first appearance to her last. She was no less a needy try-hard than Andrew, except not actually a psychopathic killer. One of those women who longs for a "fabulous" gay friend to round the edges of her shitty existence. The wanted poster with lipstick and a wig looked just like her. I wonder how deliberate that was.

And the final shot of Donatella looking in the etched mirror virtually turned her into the Medusa head--creator and destroyer; the new, quite literal, now-horrifying face of Versace; virago enacting vendettas against outsiders. If only Gianni had given the company to the drag-queen Donatella impersonator. She seemed like fun.

[Aethera]

Please keep episode discussion to the episodes. I moved posts about Future Seasons to the Future Seasons wishlist thread. 

[ItsHelloPattiagain]

Quote

I think even if the Versace family had requested that Antonio be included in the homily, the priest would have rejected it. This is the Catholic Church. In Italy. In 1997. There was no Pope Francis asking "Who am I to judge?" I heard an anti-gay homily at the church I grew up in as recently as 2010. It's foul and uncalled for (hate the sin not the sinner my ass), but welcome to Roman Catholicism. They are very much Not Cool with it.

I work as a church musician and have performed at a LOT of Catholic funerals over the years (hundreds). The very vast majority of the time the priest will preach about salvation and not about the actual person him/herself (it's not a eulogy, sometimes a family member does that at the end of the mass, but not always). And I know it's nitpicking but after 20 years, I have NEVER seen a priest go around and expect people to kiss his ring. Another thing done for drama. 

That said, I really enjoyed this version of ACS. I thought Darren Criss did a good job of vacillating between his grandiose-ness and neediness. He thought he deserved to be somebody but was also desperate to be wanted. 

[Ailianna]

13 minutes ago, ItsHelloPattiagain said:

I work as a church musician and have performed at a LOT of Catholic funerals over the years (hundreds). The very vast majority of the time the priest will preach about salvation and not about the actual person him/herself (it's not a eulogy, sometimes a family member does that at the end of the mass, but not always). And I know it's nitpicking but after 20 years, I have NEVER seen a priest go around and expect people to kiss his ring. Another thing done for drama. 

I think the officiant was a bishop though, so there would be a lot of ring-kissing.  Not a regular priest.  Which makes sense.  Italy in general has a lot of clergy and while Versaci (with his gayness--ugh!) wouldn't have rated the pope, he would certainly rate a bishop, given the family wealth and the celebrity nature of the funeral.

[andromeda331]

This series really made me feel for the victims and I'm really glad it did. Focusing on the victims what they were like and not letting us forgot the damage Andrew did. I felt for Marilyn when she opened the door and saw the FBI. The fear and how scared she was asking about her children. Her anger at them having two months and didn't find Andrew. Wanting to know what they were doing. I loved that she refused to leave because Andrew was nearby. She wants going to stay and do her job. I loved when they went to tell her that he was dead. I do think it was relieve that is was over. I understand why the families wish they got to see Andrew on trial and convicted. I'd love to have seen that too. To see justice done. But the circus that would have been that trial. Andrew's version of things assuming he'd tell the truth which is a big assumption, the media circus, and the never ending interviews with Andrew during trial, after trial going on forever.  I do wish we had gotten to see more of the FBI manhunt I remember that mostly from watching America's Most Wanted.  

I enjoyed Andrew realizing he couldn't leave the city, I enjoyed him being reduced to eating dog food, I enjoyed his panic at seeing the police, realizing the police had him surrounded. I don't care if that part is true or not.                               

[thesupremediva1]

On 3/22/2018 at 9:48 AM, Chaos Theory said:

Still in a lot of ways I enjoyed this more then I enjoyed the OJ story.  I found it all so fascinating and sad because so much was unknown and unknowable.   I wrote off Darren Criss because of Glee.  That might have been a mistake.

In many ways, I enjoyed this far more than OJ. There is so much of this story that is shrouded in mystery, while every tiny detail of spectacle that was the OJ trial has been brought to light and dissected in a million books, TV shows, movies, specials, etc. The story told last year was a behemoth everyone could latch onto. Even if you were born after 1995, you knew about that crime.

Pulling off the story of Versace and Cunanan is a far bigger coup, in my opinion. For me, personally, watching the finale of OJ last year drove home the true tragedy of the OJ trial, and the show was complicit in it as well: There was a circus trial, a national discussion about race, an investigation into corrupt police and officials, the controversy over the verdict - it was all so massive and compelling. But at the end of it all, you could only trace it back to the murders or two innocent people, who almost no one but their families advocated for. The media didn't care. The jury didn't care. The judge barely cared. Lawyers, pundits, news media, infotainment, and a million TV personalities were born and profited from the deaths of Ron and Nicole.

I remember bawling when Sarah Paulson as Marcia Clark mentioned Ron Goldman was 25. I was 7 when the OJ trial happened. I watched the whole trial during the summer off from school. Nicole and Ron were adults to me. I couldn't fathom even being in double digits of age yet. Fast forward to being 29, and realizing that guy had his whole life stolen out from under him for trying to do a favor for a friend, and I just crumbled. What a fucking sick tragedy. No wonder his father is still so outraged. 

This series did not make that mistake. I thought the show would be all about Versace, and then I realized the show was going to focus primarily on Cunanan, but what it accomplished was honoring the victims. There seemed to be painstaking effort to honor their lives, their legacies, their families, and their suffering at the hands of Cunanan. 

It made my feelings toward Cunanan all the more complex that Darren Criss gave such a star performance of him. I was still quite young when Andrew was crisscrossing the country on his murderous rampage. I lived about 15 miles from the cemetery where he killed William Reese. Everyone in my town spent most of that summer TERRIFIED. In that respect, I might have a more vivid memory of this than most people. I do wish they'd shown a bit more on the media hysteria and manhunt - it was a big deal. I had a major flashback seeing the news reports with footage of the houseboat. I remember hearing he was dead and immediately taking a nap that was months overdue. Now, I sort of feel like the agent who found him. "He's just a boy." It's shocking that someone so young could have so much rage and wreak so much havoc on the country. 

Cunanan was just an evil bogeyman to me when I was a kid - the stuff of nightmares. Really, until this show, he remained as such. Yeah, he was a douche, a compulsive liar, lazy and entitled, filled with delusion of grandeur, and ultimately a murderous psychopath, but he was a person. And while I don't think the show excused or romanticized his actions, it at least drew a line as to how he went from pampered, intelligent boy to wanted man. And I don't know if that's a through-line anyone has clearly presented.

I also think the route this show took to explore how homophobia in the late 1990s affected this case and the coverage of it - even to this day - was spot on and important. That was not in the national conversation when Andrew was on the loose. It was only maybe 5 or 6 years ago that I was able to fully understand the implications that the victims' and perp's sexual preference played in the case. The speech Andrew's "friend" gave the cops really hit home. I didn't see it as an apology for a murderer - it was just an incisive indictment of how and why the police failed to prevent so many murders. 

Darren and Edgar looked beautiful in the final scene on stage. Versace created; Andrew destroyed. To be "special" or great, you must do the work. This show did the work. Kudos to all.

Edited March 28, 2018 by thesupremediva1

[darkestboy]

I thought the finale was overdrawn and a bit longer than needed to be.

I have enjoyed the series and Darren Criss excelled as Cunanan but I do wonder if it should've been a few episodes shorter in retrospect. Even Andrew's suicide here was pretty drawn out for it's own good.

I did like the scenes with Ronnie, Marilyn and David's father, which added nice enough context to things.

I felt so sorry for Antonio. He really was treated pretty appallingly by the Versaces and the priest here.

Overall a good season but needed to be a bit shorter, 7/10

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

Ronnie's monologue to the cops was everything.  It made the entire season worth it, IMO. 

(Also, if anyone ever makes a bio-pic about one the Knight brothers from New Kids on the Block, the actor who played Ronnie has to play him. The accent, the mannerisms, everything. Ha.)

[helenamonster]

On 3/25/2018 at 5:26 PM, ItsHelloPattiagain said:

I work as a church musician and have performed at a LOT of Catholic funerals over the years (hundreds). The very vast majority of the time the priest will preach about salvation and not about the actual person him/herself (it's not a eulogy, sometimes a family member does that at the end of the mass, but not always). And I know it's nitpicking but after 20 years, I have NEVER seen a priest go around and expect people to kiss his ring. Another thing done for drama. 

In my experience, if the person who died was devout and involved with their parish, the priest would meet with the remaining family and talk to them about the deceased for things to put in his homily, but the eulogies delivered by spouse/children/people who actually knew the person were always much more impactful. You are right that homilies at funerals tend to be much more impersonal; if anything, they always seem to be about the rest of us contemplating our own mortality. Most of the funerals I've been to have been Catholic and all the homilies seem to have this running theme of: "I know you miss the person who died and probably might be thinking that this is gonna be you someday, but big picture here, people!"

But yeah for sure, in a random Catholic Church in Bumfuck, Nowhere, the priest is not going to go around asking for his ring to be kissed. But in Italy, if you're Versace, and a bishop is presiding over your funeral, maybe? Catholicism has always had a flair for the dramatic.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

On 3/25/2018 at 4:26 PM, ItsHelloPattiagain said:

I work as a church musician and have performed at a LOT of Catholic funerals over the years (hundreds). The very vast majority of the time the priest will preach about salvation and not about the actual person him/herself (it's not a eulogy, sometimes a family member does that at the end of the mass, but not always). And I know it's nitpicking but after 20 years, I have NEVER seen a priest go around and expect people to kiss his ring. Another thing done for drama. 

I've never seen the ring kissing thing either....I just figured it had to be dramatic license for the show or something with Italian-Catholic-culture I am unaware of and since Gianni & the Bishop were both important so it was done for the funeral? As someone raised Catholic (and who is still at least culturally Catholic), I've never seen that. 

On 3/22/2018 at 9:05 PM, helenamonster said:

I think even if the Versace family had requested that Antonio be included in the homily, the priest would have rejected it. This is the Catholic Church. In Italy. In 1997. There was no Pope Francis asking "Who am I to judge?" I heard an anti-gay homily at the church I grew up in as recently as 2010. It's foul and uncalled for (hate the sin not the sinner my ass), but welcome to Roman Catholicism. They are very much Not Cool with it.

I think you are probably right, although the priest/bishop may have been persuaded to mention Gianni's "dear friend" Antonio. I've seen that happen at funerals where the deceased has a partner of the same sex.  I've also seen in such situations where the priest would just reference the deceased's "family" rather than by name so as not to purposefully single the same-sex partner out or specifically include/exclude them. I'd imagine, though, that a priest/bishop might not be able to help name-dropping Donatella and Santo from the altar, though, since they are rich celebs who asked him specifically to do the funeral.

Warning- long tangent ahead....

It kind of surprises me to read what you're saying though about the blatant homophobia on the local level that you've seen as a Catholic. I was born in the US in the 1980s and raised Catholic - attended mass, went to 13 years of Catholic school, etc - and while I stopped attending mass regularly after college, I have NEVER heard an anti-gay message from the pulpit in mass. I never heard it in 13 years of Catholic school.  We were taught in school that being gay wasn't a sin or choice (gay marriage wasn't even a real debate that was ever mentioned then that I recall, so we never talked about it). We were told gays should remain celibate like unmarried straight people (which is obviously messed up since they can't marry in the Church), but we were never told being gay was a sin in itself, etc.  Gay issues weren't ever addressed at all as good or bad, so to speak. I never - not even once - heard a priest or deacon EVER mention homosexuality in a homily in the thousands of masses I attended.  It was a non-issue, at least for the everyday Catholic (obviously, the Church hierarchy feels/felt differently, but I never saw it become an issue for the priests, sisters, Catholic educators, etc who were out there working with the people everyday). 

The Evangelicals I know seem/seemed to be much more openly anti-gay, while the Catholic church didn't make it an issue from the pulpit in my experience (though it certainly supported Prop 8, etc). I've known openly gay, (allegedly) celibate Catholic priests basically my whole life and it was a non-issue. Everyone knew but I don't remember anyone caring.  People just wanted a good priest.  I do academic research on American Folk Catholicism and I've never come across anti-gay sentiment as a marker of Catholic identity, especially compared to many other churches that will openly try to get people to pray the gay away, etc, and how their members construct their religious identities. The majority of (American) Catholics support gay marriage and have supported it in consistently larger numbers than other religious groups (aside from Mainline Protestants, whose support is/was about even with Catholics') than other religious groups. http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/ In 2010, over 80% of Italians reported that they considered gays as equal to everyone else. I know that's slightly over a decade after Gianni's death and a lot has changed.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Italy  But that's still a huge number and one would think that although the framework and hierarchy that the clergy has to operate within in Catholicism is anti-gay, that Italian Catholics themselves may not have been so anti-gay themselves.

So....TL;DR....your experience is quite different than mine and I'm just surprised to hear it, I guess (and disappointed).  

Edited March 29, 2018 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[helenamonster]

4 hours ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

So....TL;DR....your experience is quite different than mine and I'm just surprised to hear it, I guess (and disappointed).  

I found your whole post very interesting and am just quoting this part in the interest of space. I'm glad to hear that someone had a relatively more positive experience regarding Catholicism and the LGBT community than I did, and I realize that the way my original post was phrased made it seem like my experiences where universal, which isn't fair. The homily I referenced was, fortunately, an anomaly in the church I grew up in. I believe there was something in the news relating to gay marriage at the time, I think California overturning Prop 8 (I lived in Pennsylvania but that made national news). It came so out of left field to the point that even my mom, who took quite a while to come around on the gay thing, thought it was very unnecessary.

I ended up going to a Jesuit university, Fordham (for those unfamiliar, Jesuit priests tend to be slightly more liberal and very focused on service--Pope Francis is a Jesuit, for example) and while my experience there was overwhelmingly positive, there was kind of a vague homophobia--or, more accurately, homoignorace--in the cohabiting policies for students who lived on campus. All guests after 5pm had to be signed in, and if they didn't have an overnight pass, they had to be signed out by 2am. You could not have an overnight guest of the opposite sex. I'm a woman, but even my best friend, a gay man, was unable to stay over in my dorm simply because he was a man despite the fact that we had no interest in sleeping with each other. However, if he'd gone to school there and gotten overnight passes for a guy he was dating, it would have been cleared and they could have knocked boots all night long. Actually being attracted to the same sex was beneficial in this context, but it was still weirdly heteronormative--Fordham is in New York, for crying out loud.

It was at Fordham, though, where I learned what it is the Catholic Church has against homosexuality. We had to take two theology classes for our core requirements and I took one about Catholic social teachings. In theory, the Catholic Church only wants people having sex for procreation. As a whole they are against any kind of birth control and only want married people having sex, and those married people must be open to a pregnancy anytime they get it on. You can try to plan around it "naturally" (before my parents could get married in a Catholic church they had to take counseling sessions where they teach you, among other things, about the rhythm method) but anytime you go to town you have to be accepting of the possibility that there might be a baby. Since it is impossible for sex between two men and two women to ever result in a baby, that kind of sex is inherently not open to pregnancy and therefore not condoned by the Catholic church.

The historical prejudices against LGBT people in any community obviously run much deeper than that but on paper that's where it comes from.

[phantom]

Very interesting finale. Andrew's lack of dialogue in the episode was such a contrast to the other episodes where he talked so much. He was forced to sit quietly with himself and make a reckoning that all he would get was infamy as a murderous pervert (in the eyes of media and law enforcement).  I don't care if the dog food consumption was true or not, it was a great touch to ensure you didn't feel sorry for him as the net tightened.

Ronnie's speech at the police station was certainly accurate for the time, but sounded like a speech and not something the detectives would just sit around and listen to while trying to find Andrew and stop the killing.

It was over the top to imply that Donatella and/or the Versace company was going to leave Antonio destitute and homeless. Why couldn't they have done the same scene with Donatella making it clear that Gianni provided for him financially, but he would not be considered family or even a close associate any longer? Still devastating without just making up things that didn't happen.

It bothered me SO MUCH that the sung version of the 23rd Psalm at Versace's funeral was done in ENGLISH. Ugh.

Edited March 30, 2018 by phantom

[truthaboutluv]

4 minutes ago, phantom said:

I don't care if the dog food consumption was true or not, it was a great touch to ensure you didn't feel sorry for him as the net tightened.

I can see the dog food being true based on the state the police found the house boat after finding Andrew. I assume a full sweep was done of the place after, for any evidence of the latter's motivations, plans, etc. They probably found the empty cans of dog food and since Andrew was the only one in the place and the owner had been gone for months, reasonable assumption to assume he was the one eating it. 

8 minutes ago, phantom said:

It was over the top to imply that Donatella and/or the Versace company was going to leave Antonio destitute and homeless. Why couldn't they have done the same scene with Donatella making it clear that Gianni provided for him financially, but he would not be considered family or even a close associate any longer? Still devastating without just making up things that didn't happen.

I feel like that scene has been misunderstood or there are conflicting stories by all parties and so the whole thing is a bit muddled. In the scene, Antonio does acknowledge Versace's leaving him homes and money, etc. in his will. And it is at that point that Donatella says that Gianni didn't own the homes, that the company did. And it is my understanding that there WAS a legal battle after Gianni's death with Antonio and Donatella and the company I guess. This was, again I may be wrong, confirmed by Antonio in later interviews. They eventually did decide to settle things and come to an agreement and he does live in one of the homes in Italy and was given some sort of allowance. Not sure if that is still the case today. So that said, I don't think the scenes in the episode were entirely made up and unfair. 

[phantom]

22 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

I can see the dog food being true based on the state the police found the house boat after finding Andrew. I assume a full sweep was done of the place after, for any evidence of the latter's motivations, plans, etc. They probably found the empty cans of dog food and since Andrew was the only one in the place and the owner had been gone for months, reasonable assumption to assume he was the one eating it. 

I feel like that scene has been misunderstood or there are conflicting stories by all parties and so the whole thing is a bit muddled. In the scene, Antonio does acknowledge Versace's leaving him homes and money, etc. in his will. And it is at that point that Donatella says that Gianni didn't own the homes, that the company did. And it is my understanding that there WAS a legal battle after Gianni's death with Antonio and Donatella and the company I guess. This was, again I may be wrong, confirmed by Antonio in later interviews. They eventually did decide to settle things and come to an agreement and he does live in one of the homes in Italy and was given some sort of allowance. Not sure if that is still the case today. So that said, I don't think the scenes in the episode were entirely made up and unfair. 

Interesting, thanks for the detail. The articles I read said there was no dispute that Antonio was entitled to a good deal of money (whether legally speaking or because it was the right thing to do by Gianni), but they had to negotiate exactly how much and lump sum verses monthly payouts, living arrangements, etc. Whereas the dramatization made you think the locks would be changed on him tomorrow. We can agree that the truth is murky so they went with the most dramatic possibility.

And the same conflicting reports re the dog food - the owner didn't have a dog, according to several articles, so why would there be dog food there? But again, if it had been unoccupied for months why was there any food at all? It's very confusing. But I loved that they made the 72 year old caretaker a badass ninja with the dramatic stop, drop & roll.

[Florinaldo]

On 29/03/2018 at 4:57 PM, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I've never seen the ring kissing thing either....I just figured it had to be dramatic license for the show or something with Italian-Catholic-culture I am unaware of and since Gianni & the Bishop were both important so it was done for the funeral? As someone raised Catholic (and who is still at least culturally Catholic), I've never seen that. 

I have seen ring kissing the few times I have attended ceremonies or events where a bishop was present (which has not happened for many a year since I now consider religious practice to be absurd); it was more prevalent amongst older members of the congregation. I suspect it may be even more frequent in Italy, where the Church still has a much stronger hold. And yes the official Catholic position on LGBT issues is as best schizophrenic, but mostly regressive. Gay people cannot enter into a valid marriage in their eyes (i.e. sanctioned by the Church) because the institution is reserved for the sole purpose of procreation (even though they will still join in matrimony couples where the woman is past her child-bearing years, but that it another issue). LGBT people can be tolerated as long as they do not act on their desires or proclivities.

I have never seen a priest's ring or hand being kissed, but that may happen in some other national traditions. For such a high profile funeral as GV's, of course the Church would have sent a high representative like a bishop, who could have taken the liberty of delivering a eulogy. And of course he would have shunned the deceased's lover.

They muddled some of the details regarding how badly Antonio was treated, but the family did go along with the deficiencies in GV'S will regarding properties over which he had relinquished control over to the company. Or at least they did not do much to mitigate the problem. It's quite understandable that he would choose an out-of-court settlement to bring matters to an end.

 

5 hours ago, phantom said:

And the same conflicting reports re the dog food - the owner didn't have a dog, according to several articles, so why would there be dog food there?

There are also reports that AC was getting around rather openly while living in the houseboat, at least for a while, and would thus have been able to get food from a store, even though he may have been low on cash. But the show needed to play up the episode's title and AC's isolation, in contrast to his ambition to be popular and loved by an admiring audience.

[Lorna Mae]

Quick question: I'd read, before this season began, that there would be a scene with Gianni and Antonio walking along the beach. Gianni stumbles, Antonio starts to help him up and Gianni panics. "No, you can't! Paparazzi!" But I don't remember seeing that. Was there such a scene, and if so, what episode? ETA: Okay, thanks.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Lorna Mae

[Florinaldo]

6 hours ago, Lorna Mae said:

Was there such a scene, and if so, what episode?

According to several actors in the series, there was a lot of little moments and beats that got edited out of the various episodes, including a whole scene with guest star Skeet Ulrich. The walk on the beach probably counts as one of those; perhaps they will all turn up as extras on the home video edition.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Florinaldo

[methodwriter85]

Is anyone else disappointed we didn't get "Alone" by Heart? That would have been a perfect coda to Darren Criss's Andrew.

[MaryWebGirl]

12 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

Is anyone else disappointed we didn't get "Alone" by Heart? That would have been a perfect coda to Darren Criss's Andrew.

LOL I get that song in my head every time I look at this thread!

[phantom]

On ‎3‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 9:20 AM, Florinaldo said:

According to several actors in the series, there was a lot of little moments and beats that got edited out of the various episodes, including a whole scene with guest star Skeet Ulrich. The walk on the beach probably counts as one of those; perhaps they will all turn up as extras on the home video edition.

 

I thought we did see that beach scene? In one of the earlier episodes where Gianni is ill and gets testy while walking on the beach?

Edited April 3, 2018 by phantom

[Florinaldo]

3 hours ago, phantom said:

I thought we did see that beach scene? In one of the earlier episodes where Gianni is ill and gets testy while walking on the beach?

I am not sure. There is some material that made it into the weekly promo clips, but was edited out of the final version of the episodes: one example is a call from AC to DM after their night of passion where he first rehearses telling him the truth about himself and then lies during the actual call. A few seconds were seen in the weekly promo but it did not make it to the final cut. Perhaps the same thing happened to the beach scene.

[helenamonster]

I remember the scene of Gianni and Antonio walking on the beach, but I can't recall the bit about Gianni falling and telling Antonio not to help him because of the paps...maybe the scene still aired but that part was cut?

[phantom]

17 hours ago, helenamonster said:

I remember the scene of Gianni and Antonio walking on the beach, but I can't recall the bit about Gianni falling and telling Antonio not to help him because of the paps...maybe the scene still aired but that part was cut?

I'm pretty sure the scene aired on TV. I didn't watch any promo clips or any other coverage of the show, and remember he got upset during the walk when he wasn't feeling well but refused Antonio's offer of assistance and said something like, "Just get me/us out of here!" I went back and re-watched at the time because I had zoned out for a second and couldn't figure out why he was so crabby while walking on a beautiful beach in Miami, haha.

[Florinaldo]

Someone present on location shot them filming what looks like that beach scene; I do not remember it from the broadcast, but I will pay closer attention when I watch the whole thing again. And trust the tumblr detectives for finding out about more deleted stuff including a whole party scene and AC being there to support his friend JT after the interview about homophobia in the Navy.

[wovenloaf]

2 hours ago, Florinaldo said:

Someone present on location shot them filming what looks like that beach scene; I do not remember it from the broadcast, but I will pay closer attention when I watch the whole thing again. And trust the tumblr detectives for finding out about more deleted stuff including a whole party scene and AC being there to support his friend JT after the interview about homophobia in the Navy.

From the Tumblr post:

Quote

A couple different grieving scenes with Donatella and Santo (I kid you not it took me until about halfway through the season to realize that the man following Donatella around was the third Versace sibling, not her bodyguard)

Ha!  I didn't realize that until reading this...  I couldn't figure out who he was supposed to be.  Some kind of bodyguard, business manager, family friend, or what...

[helenamonster]

10 hours ago, wovenloaf said:

From the Tumblr post:

Ha!  I didn't realize that until reading this...  I couldn't figure out who he was supposed to be.  Some kind of bodyguard, business manager, family friend, or what...

I can't remember...did he even speak? It feels like they accidentally went over budget and either had to cut his lines entirely or make him an "under five" to pay him on the lower end of the SAG scale.

[methodwriter85]

On 3/23/2018 at 6:45 PM, mojoween said:

Darren Criss looks super fine with a buzz cut.  I feel creepy thinking that.

I saw Andrew's buzzcut as him letting go of the last bit of his vanity. Think about it- Andrew was a very vain person, and he always seemed to have perfectly styled hair. But Andrew is a trapped in a hot house with no air conditioning, so the hair had to go. He ate dog food and he cut off all his hair. He was pretty much at the end and he knew it.

[Florinaldo]

7 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

He was pretty much at the end and he knew it.

It's as if he is shedding his persona by cutting his hair, part of the image he has carefully constructed and maintained; he is often seen during the series checking or adjusting his hair, as much as his clothes. Cutting it was akin to a ritual, like a fighter getting ready to engage on a suicide action. He is so much at the end of his path that he does not much care about the results and his buzz cut is patchy, most notably in the back, something the earlier AC would probably never have tolerated.

[aradia22]

I thought there was still too much influence on Andrew's dad as the root cause of his psychology, problems, etc. Andrew became very passive/reactionary as his dad's story began to be depicted on the show.

I'm curious what they were able to piece together since he killed himself before he could confess to anything. But the way it was depicted for the show, it feels like he was just insanely lucky. He broke into a houseboat and the owners never came back at any point. He was able to steal that woman's purse and her car no problem. And none of it left a trail until he broke and called his dad for help? What? He hasn't been shown as particularly adept at criminal behavior before this. And then the dog food. If he could lift a purse that easily and he did go outside then why wasn't he able to shoplift from a store undetected? Or at least lift a piece of fruit from an outdoor stand? I feel like the show was a little less confident in its facts at the end and that left a lot to be desired as a viewer. I kind of felt abandoned where I didn't know the rules of the world and there was no sense of tension or energy. 

There were some nice moments here and there. And I liked that they focused back on Ricky Martin's character. Though again, I don't know if it's because they didn't have enough facts or they were careful about Donatella's feelings on the matter but that part of the story also felt curiously lacking. Like all of a sudden they were afraid to make definitive statements. And the ones they did make like the priest slighting him felt forced.

[aradia22]

Quote

The 23rd Psalm at Gianni's service was a perfect choice; just the right words: "And though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil...". And didn't  Marilyn and Donatella, just show that!!!!  Damn.  Fearing no evil. 

This is not criticism of the real life person but the way the character was depicted on the show. I found it a little entitled. Assume we're watching some kind of horror or monster movie and not a show where we the viewer know that Andrew is trapped and not on the hunt for more victims out of misplaced sense of revenge. She was basically like, what I want to do is more important than anything else. So you need to devote manpower and resources to guarding me at the studio (and possibly at home). And I'm potentially putting everyone I work with in danger. 

Quote

Yep!  When the show started all I could see was Blaine.  By this episode, the image was totally gone.

I think of him more as Darren than Blaine. The only time there were flickers of Blaine is when there was some element of performance (dancing, singing, etc.). I feel like of all the recognizable actors, relative to his screen time, I had the hardest time seeing Darren as a character. That's always an issue when you cast recognizable actors but he really didn't disappear that much for me except in extreme moments like violent scenes. As others have noted, it may have been how he was directed to play AC (e.g. not the most believable liar, vacant and sociopathic, etc.) That also reminds me that we never got an explanation for the weird duct tape thing and some other stuff like that. I feel like this show was in a weird middle ground where they clearly took some liberties but were afraid to fully commit to provide explanations that might have strengthened the story even if they were totally unjustified by factual evidence. 

[stonehaven]

This whole season has been hard to watch for me...It's just been so grim..and fascinating at the same time....I watched it mainly because the murders began in Minneapolis, where I lived and during the time I lived there. I'll admit the local coverage was non-stop at first....and the one thing I recall was there interviewing several people in the gay community and one say "it's all anyone can talk about..Andrew's sort of a cause-celebre"....that ran through my mind through the whole season....He got what he wanted...fame and a TV show with it....