S01.E10: The Killers

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

As a cornered Kovacs braces for a final showdown in the sky, a new hero emerges and more buried secrets come to light.

[Scarlett45]

Exciting final episode!! The good guys seemed to come out on top, and Lizzie was reunited with her parents. Ryker will be reunited with Kristen and Kovacs is off to find his love.

I want to read the novel and explore the sequels. 

[mjc570]

Combining my thoughts of the last several episodes, since I binged and don't really remember which was which , -

Wow, talk about a show lasting two long - up to the part through the "Bancroft reveal"

Spoiler

(with Prescott)

I thought it was pretty interesting, well-written and generally good acting (Ortega being a notable exception) so I enjoyed it.  When they started with the Rei stuff though, it was like the show just ran out of money for decent writing.  Also, I totally didn't buy the Lizzie thing and hated that ridiculously heavy-handed outfit. 

Spoiler

(I don't believe for a minute that unintended pregnancies are realistic, especially for Meths)

Also unbelievable:  Clumsy fight sequences,

Spoiler

 

the fact that the sister was so powerful and behind everything, an absolute cartoon villain, I doubt she could have amassed such power in only 250 years

etc. 

 

I admit that I am totally Team Rei, because the other love interest, Ortega, was so badly acted (in my opinion!  Only my opinion!)   The fight sequences were so boring I had to ff.   It was like they had days or months to craft the first 8 episodes, and 20 minutes to do the last ones.

No disrespect to anyone who liked it, but these episodes left a bad taste in my mouth.

[Scarlett45]

42 minutes ago, mjc570 said:

sequences were so boring I had to ff.   It was like they had days or months to craft the first 8 episodes, and 20 minutes to do the last ones.

 

I most assaurdely felt the first 7-8 were so well written and well crafted while the last were just THROWN together. 

Although I loved Lizzie and her reunion with her parents (especially that she kept the synth) the “wife is jealous of the pregnant mistress trope” was too simple- I thought the show deserved better. Although Bancroft was foul, he was right, he wouldn’t have “real death-ed” that woman had he not been drugged.

 

Can anyone tell me why Lizzie’s Mom Ava was imprisioned/her sleeve mortgaged out? (I missed that part). 

[Vicky8675309]

16 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I most assaurdely felt the first 7-8 were so well written and well crafted while the last were just THROWN together. 

Although I loved Lizzie and her reunion with her parents (especially that she kept the synth) the “wife is jealous of the pregnant mistress trope” was too simple- I thought the show deserved better. Although Bancroft was foul, he was right, he wouldn’t have “real death-ed” that woman had he not been drugged.

 

Can anyone tell me why Lizzie’s Mom Ava was imprisioned/her sleeve mortgaged out? (I missed that part). 

Wasn't Ava a hacker who got busted for something hacking related?

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Vicky8675309 said:

Wasn't Ava a hacker who got busted for something hacking related?

Ah yes thank you. 

[Enero]

I just finished my binge watch of this, and I have to agree the first few episodes were descent, but they lost me with the sister being obsessed with her brother's love storyline. 

Also, I couldn't have cared less when Ortega's life was in danger and episodes revolved around saving her. Unfortunately, I was hoping she'd meet the true death several times. I never warmed to the character (the actress certainly didn't help this) and she did not have any chemistry with Takeshi Kovac/Ryker. 

I too thought the whole jealousy wife trope that was behind Lizzie's murder was ridiculous. Not only is the trope old and tired, but I found it hard to believe in 100+ years he'd been with his wife, a good bit of it I'm assuming entailed cheating, that Bancroft never knocked up a mistress who wanted to keep the baby. 

Didn't know this series was based on books. I may have to check those out. Though the last part of the season sort of went left for me, I am intrigued by the idea that Quell is alive and frozen somewhere, and that Kovac is now set on finding her. If they have a season two, I'm assuming we'll get Takeshi's original sleeve back (at least I hope) or maybe it'll be a completely new actor in the lead role. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by Enero

[sjohnson]

In the end, this is a woman is the devil story, and the man killing the devil is both a conquering hero fantasy and a suffering hero fantasy, plus it is a judgment of Paris story, where the hero chooses between the three women who simply must have his seal of approval. But I guess the woman is the devil story is balanced by the diva ex machina story? At any rate, you can't deny this is a complex story, can you? You can?

Kovacs giving up Quell did seem like a sacrifice, because I forgot she wanted everyone in the galaxy to die.

Edited February 6, 2018 by sjohnson

[Cruella]

What a weird show. I had hard time caring about most characters, with exception of AI, not sure what it's saying exactly. 

So we have the dumbest prostitute alive in Lizzie, who is working as a kind of snuffle whore and doesn't think it's a good idea to use good contraception method (in what, XXV century???). Then, after she turns out to be pregnant by married serial killer who enjoys strangling women to death, she's all "OMG, I want to have his babeeee! Eeee", and instead of trying to contact her john in some discreet way, thinks it's a good idea to show up at his house (how?) when he's not there (so not because he set up a meeting with her even) and announce to his wife that she's pregnant with her husbands' child. That was going to go over well, sister!

It's tragic that she was tortured till she lost her mind (why didn't they just destroy her stack I don't know, seems less cruel even), but it's not like she had much of it to lose to begin with. Of course, it's offset by cretin 300 old trillionaire who in XXV century still has no clue how not to impregnate random prostitutes he's using frequently. 

It's like this show is a cross between 80's soap opera where half of these plots would be right at home and noir futuristic cyberpank. 

I wonder if Bankroft will get out of this one, since he was under influence of drugs he didn't take voluntarily? Good lawyer should be able to use it, admittedly these people seemed to fire the one good lawyer this planet has, as they just meekly confessed to everything and didn't even try to get another one during arrest. You'd think there would be verifiable army of lawyers working 24/7 for Bankrofts, a-la Good Wife, but we always only saw this one chick, so... 

Also teem Rei, btw! Must be maddening to see your brother fall under the spell of the first woman he interacted for longer than a week (I imagine he only had time for prostitutes and ONS on his previous job). So he has hots for this unpleasant cult leader character with braids, and that means he's ready to join suicide mission to cull humanity's life limit (to only just 100 years?) and tries to drag his sister into it even. She doesn't want to fuck Quell so of course she would be non-plussed about having to die together with other fanatics. 

Not sure what this 653 solves, huh? All murderers will just destroy people's stacks, like they should have done from the get go! Like what sort of cretin wouldn't think of it. This "falling angel" chick was bizarre accident. What they should do instead is try to provide all humans with back ups and special cameras that films everything and sends this info to the satellite. These videos aren't seen by anyone without special federal order which only is issued when the person is killed, and they are destroyed in months' time otherwise. 

Overall the themes reminded me strongly about Zelazny's novels  - if they were badly written, that is. Body swapping, immortals who are thought to be gods, rebels against this order, hero who is practically lost in time... All these elements have been around for awhile, but together it gave me strong zelaznian vibe. All in all very derivative. 

 

ETA:

Oh, and how come they never brought up the fact that if Rey kills Takeshi (or he kills himself), she'll still have other version of her brother to track down and abduct? I can see how she doesn't want to kill either of them, but it does change power dynamic a bit... 

They sort of glossed over one of few genuinly interesting dilemmas - is it right to punish Bancroft for something he didn't do? I mean, he didn't just forget, his present version literally didn't do it. We only know it could, if you dosed it with drugs. It's one of those interesting questions you get when you separate body and mind/personality. If say you had frozen this Bancroft (B-1), then uploaded his saved up personality into another body (B-2), and in years time B-2 went on a killing spree, and then B-2's stack was destroyed, and you unfroze B-1, would B-1 be responsible for what his B-2 version did while he was "on ice"? I don't think so. Only a day had passed for this Bancroft, but the principle is the same really. 

I do think that the courts might find it necessary to consider them legally the same person (otherwise all meths will start having fun this way), but is it morally correct? (disregarding the fact that simply strangling sleeves to death should be punishable by law and he must deserve it for other shit). It is also probably the first such precedent in legal history, yet nobody seems to care. 

And how easy these meths to take down, huh? Harry Weinstein raped and harrassed lots of very prominent women, and he's still at large and making statements, but this super powerful guy kills one prostitute under influence of mind altering drugs and suddenly everyone's like "you're done, buddy". Now sure, it's good to see, but maybe Quell is overstating her case - the meths aren't that powerful. And where is your team of lawyers, people? 

I also find it annoying how Takeshi and Ortega fuck once because she's nostalgic for her ex-BF body, and everyone starts treating it as almost- love affair. These two barely got to know each other! Wasn't Takeshi supposed to be madly in love with threads-braids? How come it's all this deep melodrama of "You think you love her, don't you" and "I'll find someone who cares about me", when they only recently started hanging out together?  Like sure, they could start developing respect and sympathy for one another and in few months begin to experience conflicting feelings, but it was one night stand and suddenly it's all super dramatic between them. Rei is right, you can't really leave Takeshi with a chick for more than a week and not have him be totally devoted to her. 

I just think, if they wanted subtle melodrama about falling for a guy who wears your boyfriends' face, they should have had spent much more time on their interactions and subtle moments. Oh and get better actress, as she in no way conveyed the heartbreak she was supposed to be feeling every time she looks at Kovatch.

 Otherwise it is all totally unnecessary - couldn't Takeshi just protect her because Ortega and her family are good decent people and don't deserve to be caught in this shitstorm? Of course, Ortega is this magical person that everyone's willing to risk their life - and to die - to save.  

Edited February 6, 2018 by Cruella

[Netfoot]

Well, I enjoyed the series, warts and all (and there were a few, let's admit).  I don't know if there are any plans for a sequel, but I think on the basis of Series #1, I would watch again.

[TheOtherOne]

19 hours ago, Cruella said:

So we have the dumbest prostitute alive in Lizzie, who is working as a kind of snuffle whore and doesn't think it's a good idea to use good contraception method (in what, XXV century???). Then, after she turns out to be pregnant by married serial killer who enjoys strangling women to death, she's all "OMG, I want to have his babeeee! Eeee", and instead of trying to contact her john in some discreet way, thinks it's a good idea to show up at his house (how?) when he's not there (so not because he set up a meeting with her even) and announce to his wife that she's pregnant with her husbands' child. That was going to go over well, sister!

Yeah, this is where I had to admit I'm a bad person, because the show was clearly indicating I was supposed to feel bad for her and think the wife was a terrible person for her actions toward her husband and his mistress (prostitute? mistress? which is it? Because it felt like the show couldn't decide, tiptoeing the line in a way that her actions made no sense.)--and I thought they both had it coming. "You killed my bayyyyybeeeee!" Boo hoo. I'm pretty sure I'm always going to take the wronged spouse's side in that situation, but I think our prostitress got exactly the reaction she deserved. Idiot.

[Cruella]

2 hours ago, TheOtherOne said:

Yeah, this is where I had to admit I'm a bad person, because the show was clearly indicating I was supposed to feel bad for her and think the wife was a terrible person for her actions toward her husband and his mistress (prostitute? mistress? which is it? Because it felt like the show couldn't decide, tiptoeing the line in a way that her actions made no sense.)--and I thought they both had it coming. "You killed my bayyyyybeeeee!" Boo hoo. I'm pretty sure I'm always going to take the wronged spouse's side in that situation, but I think our prostitress got exactly the reaction she deserved. Idiot.

Heh, me too, more or less. Of course, if it was real life - or even something with semblance of realism, I do not approve of kicking anyone in the stomach or torturing them into insanity. But the whole situation was so fake and unconvincing, that I just ended up rolling my eyes at Lizzie and the whole drama. Maybe if Bancroft seduced some 15 y.o. from the farm I could buy her behavior, but no prostitute is going to be so criminally naive. And sorry, but this baby is better off. I'd expect her to be all "you stuck alien monsters into my insides and tore my mind to shreds", not "you took my baby from me". Yeah, good fucking life this baby was going to have as a bastard child of psychotic daddy with rage issues and psychologically damaged prositute (how could she not be in this line of work?) as a mother. 

Question: how does she even know that it was his baby? Either she's his mistress and should be living in nice mansion with a way to communicate with him or (I think it's correct) she's a prostitute in a sleazy joint he enjoys visiting (what, Head in the Clouds was all booked?) and many people could be baby's daddy. I think anyone would assume, once she appeared in the mansion, that she came to shake them down for money. Also, is she wearing her original sleeve? I thought Bancroft liked to choke his victims and then gave them new sleeves (being good guy and all) and Lizzie was his fav. I admit I got confused with all his prostitutes, the ones he killed and didn't kill. 

Lizzie almost makes for compelling story if you take away the whole "mah baby" moosh. She could be just poor prostitute (I forgot if they explained why she had to work there when she has a loving father and all that) who witnessed a crime or something. 

 

ETA; It is also kinda hard to worry about separate crimes when we have all these "sleeves" who would be fully functioning humans if their brain wasn't overwritten with the inserted stacks. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Cruella

[thuganomics85]

Well, they certainly shorten the cast list quite a bit, assuming this gets another season!  Poe (sniff!), Rei, and Mr. Leung (Rei's psycho lackey) are all dead.  Both Banecroft and Miriam are both likely going to prison for their respected murders.  Even the Elliots seem to be at a place where they likely won't factor back in anymore.  Then again, judging from the final scenes, I wonder if they're hinting that Kovacs quest to find Quell's stack will take him elsewhere, and it's going to be one of those shows were he's the only one returning.  Then again, is he keeping the Ryker skin?  I don't see them replacing Joel Kinnaman, but it would kind of suck for the real Ryker if he has to get stuck with another one.

Overall, weird series.  I enjoyed it, but it admittedly took a few episodes to find its footing, and then I felt it was a bit strange how suddenly the whole "Who killed Banecroft?" story kind of got shoved to the side to deal with Crazy Rei, only for it to be revealed that suddenly she was behind all of it, in a very rushed way.  This might have been one of the few Netflix shows where it actually wouldn't have hurt for it to have 12 or 13 episodes, instead of 10.

If the show does come back, I still hope they find a way to bring back Will Yun Lee's sleeve again.  Wish we got more of him.

[snowwhyte]

3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

 

If the show does come back, I still hope they find a way to bring back Will Yun Lee's sleeve again.  Wish we got more of him.

This is my wish for the second season. I know the body swapping allows them to go with a new actor but I really enjoyed Will Yun Lee and having him return would give some continuity if they are going off world and getting rid of the rest of the cast. Also since Kovac got paid by Bancroft he can presumably afford to buy a clone of his original body.

[Enero]

4 minutes ago, snowwhyte said:

This is my wish for the second season. I know the body swapping allows them to go with a new actor but I really enjoyed Will Yun Lee and having him return would give some continuity if they are going off world and getting rid of the rest of the cast. Also since Kovac got paid by Bancroft he can presumably afford to buy a clone of his original body.

Based on what I've read about the show and the fact that the final scene went out of it's way not to show Kovac's face as he left on his mission to find Quell, I don't think Kinneman will be back. I too hope they'll find a way to bring in Will Yun Lee, at the very least in flashbacks again at the very best as lead. 

[RadiantAerynSun]

I enjoyed it, although I admit the more you think about some parts of it the less sense it makes. But I enjoyed it anyway. If they make another season I could see them having a different lead, but using WYL for flashbacks at least, and perhaps each season would tie into Quell's speech about finding "useful locals" (or however she phrased it) to accomplish whatever XYZ goal of the season is, some of them being "expendable".

[TheOtherOne]

Kinnaman was only signed to a one year deal, and said he wouldn't expect to be back if they did a second season. He just signed up for a new show, so if this one is renewed, they will need to replace him.

[Jack Kerouac]

On 2/5/2018 at 3:39 PM, Enero said:

Also, I couldn't have cared less when Ortega's life was in danger and episodes revolved around saving her. Unfortunately, I was hoping she'd meet the true death several times. I never warmed to the character (the actress certainly didn't help this) and she did not have any chemistry with Takeshi Kovac/Ryker. 

I have a feeling she wasn't exactly hired because of her acting 'talent,' but more hired for the 'talents' she showed off in the bathtub scene - both of them.

[mjc570]

5 hours ago, TheOtherOne said:

Kinnaman was only signed to a one year deal, and said he wouldn't expect to be back if they did a second season. He just signed up for a new show, so if this one is renewed, they will need to replace him.

I'm a big JK fan (the main reason I watched the show), but really, that could have been any decent actor in that role.  Of course, he remains a "slice of heaven . . . "

[The Mighty Peanut]

All this talk of back ups and double sleeves and ice and the real...and I’m over here like “But Poe. I only want Poe.”

[CaptainTightpants]

Rei was bug nuts psycho, there is no question. But she had a solid complaint about being left out of all the decision making in her life. Although seriously, there are better ways to cope with boundry issues! I bet Kovacs doesn't make that mistake again.

No not Poe! I actually don't care if any of the rest of the supporting cast makes it into season 2, I'm just happy if Poe makes it back. Even though his death scene was totally badass! Hopefully Lizzy did him a solid and backed him up before he died, since she can apparently see through time now. 

That little pocket sized mustache asshole got a death that was richly deserved. I'm glad that Ortega used that stupid citrus juicer on him. He can go straight to hell. 

The whole Prescott thing of her wanting to be a better human literally less than 24 hours after her fall from grace was a stretch. I would have been more inclined to believe that she had been working for Rei as a mole in Bancroft's house, than a sudden desire for redemption. How else would she even know where Ortega was? That was another plot left dangling. 

All of a sudden Bancroft admires Issac? And is going to leave everything to him? What bullshit is this? From what we have seen of Bancroft he would tie up the courts with a bunch of lawyers and influence. I did not buy him going softly into that good night for a second.

Pregnant Lizzy was another plot point that was bewildering. Surely Miriam would just have had her stack destroyed as many people have pointed out, why go to the trouble of having her tortured at all? More dangling plot threads. 

My hopes for season 2 are pretty much that Will Yun Lee gets to play Kovacs. And that he reunites with Falconer and they go ninja on everybody. With Poe helping out as the world's best sidekick. 

[KaleyFirefly]

On 2/5/2018 at 10:16 PM, Cruella said:

What a weird show. I had hard time caring about most characters, with exception of AI, not sure what it's saying exactly. 

So we have the dumbest prostitute alive in Lizzie, who is working as a kind of snuffle whore and doesn't think it's a good idea to use good contraception method (in what, XXV century???). Then, after she turns out to be pregnant by married serial killer who enjoys strangling women to death, she's all "OMG, I want to have his babeeee! Eeee", and instead of trying to contact her john in some discreet way, thinks it's a good idea to show up at his house (how?) when he's not there (so not because he set up a meeting with her even) and announce to his wife that she's pregnant with her husbands' child. That was going to go over well, sister!

............etc.

 

This is all an excellent summary of the series, and also you brought up some interesting legal & moral issues. Agree 100% about the stupidity of the pregnancy storyline -- in 400 something years from now, they don't have foolproof birth control? And I just don't buy that Miriam would so upset at a hooker with his baby, since she knows he goes to hookers all the time and doesn't seem to care.

I read the first book, I might try reading the sequels to see where this goes.

On 2/6/2018 at 7:39 AM, Netfoot said:

Well, I enjoyed the series, warts and all (and there were a few, let's admit).  I don't know if there are any plans for a sequel, but I think on the basis of Series #1, I would watch again.

If there's a season 2, I really hope that Will Yun Lee will play Kovacs.

I hope they could bring back Poe somehow, I loved him!

Edited February 10, 2018 by KaleyFirefly

[KaleyFirefly]

On 2/8/2018 at 10:58 PM, The Mighty Peanut said:

All this talk of back ups and double sleeves and ice and the real...and I’m over here like “But Poe. I only want Poe.”

I loved Poe! One of the best characters by far in this show. And, good use of Edgar Allen Poe's poem "Annabel Lee."

[marys1000]

I watched the first episode and thought it was sort of slow and confusing.  But given it was (1) Joel Kinneman and (2) either an homage to Blade Runner visually or a rip off. either works for me so  stayed with it. 

I was quickly sucked in and things were good till ep 8, 9 when things sort of got explanatory and then 10 was pretty good.   

I tend to get bored with fight scenes almost immediately.  Also there are a lot of things that are old; cop team one breaking all the rules, the other covering.  Making someone choose which loved one to kill, many others. 

Overall I enjoyed it, sort of right up my alley as Ioved Blade Runner and this had a similar look and feel.  Not sure what I would give it, an 8?

How is that Kinneman on talk shows always looks sort of pale and narrow faced (but still good) and on here his face was so blocky and rugged looking.  He looked great!

I'd like to give a shout to all the other actors most of whom I've never seen before who I thought were really really good.  Quell has a great voice.  

There was some good writing - the bit about winners rewriting history being another kind of war, humans are clever monkeys who always want the same things, yea. 

The whole problem with immortality reminded me of similar threads in vampire stories.  

So if they found Kovacs in the wreckage did they find the sister?  Season 2?  Kinneman won't be back so different sleeve for his character.  

[TheOtherOne]

I haven't read the book, but I just read this article that mentions (BOOK SPOILER......) that the character of Lizzie the prostitute was combined with that of a pregnant mistress whose baby Miriam killed. So that's probably why Lizzie the pregnant prostitute didn't make any sense on the show. They mashed together two characters so that the result was incomprehensible.

[Enero]

47 minutes ago, marys1000 said:

How is that Kinneman on talk shows always looks sort of pale and narrow faced (but still good) and on here his face was so blocky and rugged looking.  He looked great!

I’m puzzled by this as well. He was really a looker in this. Perhaps he gained a little weight for the role and laid off the vices (if he has some)? His body is that of a Greek god in this. Just beautiful. 

Anyway, superficial aside, I enjoyed the murder investigation for the first several episodes, but as stated in another thread they lost me with Rei’s creepy love for Takeshi. I get that he was her brother and she wanted him back, but she wanted him all to herself. She wanted it to be just her and him forever, which I guess was precipitated by him leaving her at such a young age. When you think about it everyone left her, Takeshi, her mom (though murdered) and her father (though abusive, but also murdered). I also wonder if she was so nuts due to wearing so many different sleeves. I think they mentioned that wearing cloned versions of your own sleeve is fine, but frequently wearing different sleeves can mess with folks mind. She’d been living that life for 200+ years. Though she had clones of herself how much time did she spend wearing different sleeves in her quest to find Takeshi?

I was intrigued by Kovacs’ and his backstory and the revolution he’d joined led by Quell. I liked that though she wasn’t there, she was there, always with him, driving him, coaching him through nearly every scenario. If the show gets a season two I wonder if we’ll get more backstory on her when she was Nadia Makita. I’d be interested to see this. I’d also be interested to see what happened to Kovacs after everything went to hell on Harland’s World. It seems like he was on the run for a short while before he was caught by CTAC.

A lot of the technology didn’t make sense. They could transport people’s consciousness, but they still had to travel by cars and trains (though transports do fly), still use stoves and refrigerators, virtual torture instead of just hacking the person’s stack, lack of full proof birth control  etc. The show provoked some interesting questions about re-sleeving in relation to religious believes, bedding someone whose wearing your partner/spouse’s sleeve but is not them, murdering someone but bringing them back by buying them a new sleeve etc., but didn’t have the time and/or perhaps the desire to explore these questions fully.

Overall, I didn’t think it was horrible, but it wasn’t great either. I’m still intrigued by it though and would probably watch a 2nd season.

[arc]

On 2/5/2018 at 7:16 PM, Cruella said:

Not sure what this 653 solves, huh? All murderers will just destroy people's stacks, like they should have done from the get go!

It's wild that in a world with real death vs sleeve death that only CTAC in combat gear bothers to wear neck armor. (Yes, of course you could still shoot at a tricky angle to get by it, but still. Wear your seatbelts, people.)

On 2/10/2018 at 3:04 PM, marys1000 said:

So if they found Kovacs in the wreckage did they find the sister?  Season 2?

I assumed Kovacs shot Rei through the stack. His grief seemed a lot more like he for-real killed his sister, not just her sleeve.

Speaking of proper precautions, the ideal backup strategy is to have multiple backups, in multiple locations, with some kept offline so they can't be so easily wiped or corrupted by an attacker. On the other hand, it's actually quite realistic that people would be lax with their backup systems and maybe Rei felt too invincible with her wealth, clone bodies, super-assassin henchman, and her own fighting prowess to bother making sure her backup system was built out with sufficient redundancies.

All that said, I really liked the show overall and if it wrapped up too many plotlines too neatly in the season finale, I'm happier with that than not.

[festivus]

Well, like others here have said there was just too much in the end that doesn't hold together when you think about it. I enjoyed the show for the most part but honestly by the end I didn't really care about any of the characters but original Takeshi, Quell and Poe. I tried but I just never did warm up to Joel Kinnaman. I bought his grief at the end over his sister but he never did feel like Takeshi to me. I would watch a season 2 though and will hope they get Will Yun Lee back to play Takeshi. I would definitely watch that guy searching through worlds to find his love.

[Captanne]

Enjoyable and playing off the Bladerunner hype.  I kept waiting for Vangelis' music to swell in the background.  Loved Poe.  (I can see Gareth David Lloyd in that role but I don't want to typecast him.)  I adore Kinneman (from The Killing -- didn't see the Robocop reboot) but he was too good for this at the stage it's in now.

 

 

ETA:  I have never been a fan of the stop-action filming during fights -- it distracts me and takes me out of the moment.  So, that is a personal problem I have with this whole series.  The slow mo back kick spin airborne bullshit makes me crazy.  (Take that, Matrix.)

Edited February 12, 2018 by Captanne

[marys1000]

2 hours ago, Captanne said:

Enjoyable and playing off the Bladerunner hype.  I kept waiting for Vangelis' music to swell in the background.  Loved Poe.  (I can see Gareth David Lloyd in that role but I don't want to typecast him.)  I adore Kinneman (from The Killing -- didn't see the Robocop reboot) but he was too good for this at the stage it's in now.

 

 

ETA:  I have never been a fan of the stop-action filming during fights -- it distracts me and takes me out of the moment.  So, that is a personal problem I have with this whole series.  The slow mo back kick spin airborne bullshit makes me crazy.  (Take that, Matrix.)

Well you could just fast forward through a lot of the action like me.  Extended action/fight sequences bore the shit out of me. 

[Captanne]

I read my Twitter feed during those moments.  I just turned 57 and I think that is more of a young person's habit but I've taken to reading Twitter when the actions scenes get airborne, kicky, samurai-sword-y, and/or everyone is in either latex or dusters.  ~yawn~

 

More in common with my age, though, the remote baffles me.  More often than not, if I ff through scenes I end up unintentionally at the end of the episode, can't rewind, and have to start all over again.  Easier to read something that interests me until the fly-by-wire scenes wear themselves out.

[MissLucas]

Well that was an entertaining binge-watch but I'm not sure I'd return for season 2. It started promising but as mentioned above I think it lost momentum when psychotic sister entered the story. I was also not impressed by Quell who I thought was crazy and so I have no interest on seeing Kovacs being reunited with his true love. 

On a sidenote: Listen show, there's only one female badass character who's allowed to hero-walk to 'Future Starts Slow' and her name's not Lizzie but Shaw..

Edited February 12, 2018 by MissLucas

[Raachel2008]

Eh, yeah it was a fun ride, but in this case it is extremely appopriated to say and repeat that the books are so much better. Half of the complexity of the plots was just watered down, Rei being Kovacs sister was a lame solution and don’even get me started on what they did to Quell. Oh and fuck this Neo-C nonsense. The core of the crime/mistery/drama there was the fact Catholics didn’t want to come back and they cheapened that Im the worst way possible.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 2/4/2018 at 4:59 PM, Scarlett45 said:

Although I loved Lizzie and her reunion with her parents (especially that she kept the synth) the “wife is jealous of the pregnant mistress trope” was too simple- I thought the show deserved better. Although Bancroft was foul, he was right, he wouldn’t have “real death-ed” that woman had he not been drugged.

 

On 2/5/2018 at 2:39 PM, Enero said:

I too thought the whole jealousy wife trope that was behind Lizzie's murder was ridiculous. Not only is the trope old and tired, but I found it hard to believe in 100+ years he'd been with his wife, a good bit of it I'm assuming entailed cheating, that Bancroft never knocked up a mistress who wanted to keep the baby. 

So who knows how many illegitimate children Bancroft has running around? Miriam was convinced that he only had the 23 by her. 

It could be that Bancroft kept her in the dark, or that he was more careful with the rest, or Prescott managed to deal with the others, or any number of things.

I also wonder about whether Bancroft would have RD'ed prostitutes eventually. If we buy into Quell's theory, eventually immortality would have led for him to break every moral line.

On 2/5/2018 at 9:16 PM, Cruella said:

What a weird show. I had hard time caring about most characters, with exception of AI, not sure what it's saying exactly. 

So we have the dumbest prostitute alive in Lizzie, who is working as a kind of snuffle whore and doesn't think it's a good idea to use good contraception method (in what, XXV century???). Then, after she turns out to be pregnant by married serial killer who enjoys strangling women to death, she's all "OMG, I want to have his babeeee! Eeee", and instead of trying to contact her john in some discreet way, thinks it's a good idea to show up at his house (how?) when he's not there (so not because he set up a meeting with her even) and announce to his wife that she's pregnant with her husbands' child. That was going to go over well, sister!

It's tragic that she was tortured till she lost her mind (why didn't they just destroy her stack I don't know, seems less cruel even), but it's not like she had much of it to lose to begin with. Of course, it's offset by cretin 300 old trillionaire who in XXV century still has no clue how not to impregnate random prostitutes he's using frequently. 

It's like this show is a cross between 80's soap opera where half of these plots would be right at home and noir futuristic cyberpank. 

I wonder if Bankroft will get out of this one, since he was under influence of drugs he didn't take voluntarily? Good lawyer should be able to use it, admittedly these people seemed to fire the one good lawyer this planet has, as they just meekly confessed to everything and didn't even try to get another one during arrest. You'd think there would be verifiable army of lawyers working 24/7 for Bankrofts, a-la Good Wife, but we always only saw this one chick, so... 

Also teem Rei, btw! Must be maddening to see your brother fall under the spell of the first woman he interacted for longer than a week (I imagine he only had time for prostitutes and ONS on his previous job). So he has hots for this unpleasant cult leader character with braids, and that means he's ready to join suicide mission to cull humanity's life limit (to only just 100 years?) and tries to drag his sister into it even. She doesn't want to fuck Quell so of course she would be non-plussed about having to die together with other fanatics. 

Not sure what this 653 solves, huh? All murderers will just destroy people's stacks, like they should have done from the get go! Like what sort of cretin wouldn't think of it. This "falling angel" chick was bizarre accident. What they should do instead is try to provide all humans with back ups and special cameras that films everything and sends this info to the satellite. These videos aren't seen by anyone without special federal order which only is issued when the person is killed, and they are destroyed in months' time otherwise. 

...

And how easy these meths to take down, huh? Harry Weinstein raped and harrassed lots of very prominent women, and he's still at large and making statements, but this super powerful guy kills one prostitute under influence of mind altering drugs and suddenly everyone's like "you're done, buddy". Now sure, it's good to see, but maybe Quell is overstating her case - the meths aren't that powerful. And where is your team of lawyers, people? 

I also find it annoying how Takeshi and Ortega fuck once because she's nostalgic for her ex-BF body, and everyone starts treating it as almost- love affair. These two barely got to know each other! Wasn't Takeshi supposed to be madly in love with threads-braids? How come it's all this deep melodrama of "You think you love her, don't you" and "I'll find someone who cares about me", when they only recently started hanging out together?  Like sure, they could start developing respect and sympathy for one another and in few months begin to experience conflicting feelings, but it was one night stand and suddenly it's all super dramatic between them. Rei is right, you can't really leave Takeshi with a chick for more than a week and not have him be totally devoted to her. 

I just think, if they wanted subtle melodrama about falling for a guy who wears your boyfriends' face, they should have had spent much more time on their interactions and subtle moments. Oh and get better actress, as she in no way conveyed the heartbreak she was supposed to be feeling every time she looks at Kovatch.

 Otherwise it is all totally unnecessary - couldn't Takeshi just protect her because Ortega and her family are good decent people and don't deserve to be caught in this shitstorm? Of course, Ortega is this magical person that everyone's willing to risk their life - and to die - to save.  

Lizzie was at a brothel where people engaged in S&M, which is different from being willing to get snuffed out. Bancroft wasn't a serial killer. He killed one woman under the influence of a drug that increased male aggression.

I'm assuming we're to take Lizzie as a teen-ager or nearish. I'm guessing she wouldn't be the first teen prostitute to have unrealistic thoughts about how a john actually loves her, or to seize on a pregnancy with a rich and powerful man in the hopes of being taken care of for the rest of her life. Also, Bancroft clearly had no idea how much emphasis and importance Miriam put on being the only mother of his children. It's entirely possible that Bancroft led Lizzie to think that Miriam would be indifferent to either the cheating or the child. 

In terms of torturing Lizzie rather than destroying her stack, it could be that Miriam wanted Lizzie to undergo that torture. It could be that Miriam thought that bringing about real death would potentially be more likely to get her caught. 

653 would address an issue that we saw in the series: if you are coded as Neo-Catholic (or presumably other religions), you can't be brought back to point authorities to your killer. So in the series, someone had managed to code a bunch of people as Neo-C so that they could be snuffed out and no one would investigate further. In terms of killers deciding to blow up people's stacks, sure they could always do that. But that is apparently considered a more serious crime than mere "sleeve death." Also, some murderers will not have the means or opportunity to destroy people's stacks. Finally, part of the problem in the Altered Carbon universe is there's a huge gulf between the haves and have-nots. It would be nice if everyone had the backups and satellite hookups that the very rich do. But from what we saw, that's not feasible for the majority.

Bancroft was at a low point when he was arrested. He'd believed for a long time that he was a murder victim, that the wife he venerated was a good person, and that there were moral lines he wouldn't cross. At one stroke, he found out all these things were untrue. He committed suicide because he couldn't deal with being a killer, his wife was also willing to kill a fetus and drive a woman mad. He lost the arrogance that characterized his appearances prior to the final episode. Now if there's a season 2, could he fight back against these charges? Probably. Mainly they come off the word of a witness who's now really dead in the form of Rei. 

Ortega liked Kovacs not just because of his wearing Riker's body but because of his own personality, I think. And Kovacs was under the impression that Quell has been dead for centuries. No real reason for her memory to stop him from falling in lust/love with someone else.

On 2/6/2018 at 4:29 PM, TheOtherOne said:

Yeah, this is where I had to admit I'm a bad person, because the show was clearly indicating I was supposed to feel bad for her and think the wife was a terrible person for her actions toward her husband and his mistress (prostitute? mistress? which is it? Because it felt like the show couldn't decide, tiptoeing the line in a way that her actions made no sense.)--and I thought they both had it coming. "You killed my bayyyyybeeeee!" Boo hoo. I'm pretty sure I'm always going to take the wronged spouse's side in that situation, but I think our prostitress got exactly the reaction she deserved. Idiot.

I'm against infidelity as anyone, but it seems like being kicked repeatedly until you miscarry and being tortured into madness does not fit that particular crime.

On 2/6/2018 at 7:04 PM, Cruella said:

Heh, me too, more or less. Of course, if it was real life - or even something with semblance of realism, I do not approve of kicking anyone in the stomach or torturing them into insanity. But the whole situation was so fake and unconvincing, that I just ended up rolling my eyes at Lizzie and the whole drama. Maybe if Bancroft seduced some 15 y.o. from the farm I could buy her behavior, but no prostitute is going to be so criminally naive. And sorry, but this baby is better off. I'd expect her to be all "you stuck alien monsters into my insides and tore my mind to shreds", not "you took my baby from me". Yeah, good fucking life this baby was going to have as a bastard child of psychotic daddy with rage issues and psychologically damaged prositute (how could she not be in this line of work?) as a mother. 

Question: how does she even know that it was his baby? Either she's his mistress and should be living in nice mansion with a way to communicate with him or (I think it's correct) she's a prostitute in a sleazy joint he enjoys visiting (what, Head in the Clouds was all booked?) and many people could be baby's daddy. I think anyone would assume, once she appeared in the mansion, that she came to shake them down for money. Also, is she wearing her original sleeve? I thought Bancroft liked to choke his victims and then gave them new sleeves (being good guy and all) and Lizzie was his fav. I admit I got confused with all his prostitutes, the ones he killed and didn't kill. 

Lizzie almost makes for compelling story if you take away the whole "mah baby" moosh. She could be just poor prostitute (I forgot if they explained why she had to work there when she has a loving father and all that) who witnessed a crime or something. 

I think we were told that Lizzie did used to have a regular customer, and presumably that's Bancroft. I assume medical science would be able to tell whose baby it was fairly easily. Current medical science can establish paternity in utero, so I'd have to assume super future science would easily be able to as well.

Bancroft would give his prostitutes new sleeves if he damaged their current ones too much, according to what the one prostitute said. So he may not have damaged Lizzie that much. As for being shaken down for money, the Bancrofts basically have an unlimited amount for all intents and purposes. What set Miriam off was being confronted with the notion that she was potentially not the only mother of Bancroft's kids. 

I think Vernon was in the military and mom got pinched for hacking, so Lizzie was on her own.

On 2/8/2018 at 4:03 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Well, they certainly shorten the cast list quite a bit, assuming this gets another season!  Poe (sniff!), Rei, and Mr. Leung (Rei's psycho lackey) are all dead.  Both Banecroft and Miriam are both likely going to prison for their respected murders.  Even the Elliots seem to be at a place where they likely won't factor back in anymore. 

Hypothetically, they could bring back anybody on this show. Poe could have a backup, or could get re-installed at the Raven. Rei and Leung could be double-sleeved, the Bancrofts could beat their raps or could have roles to play while in prison.  And Kovacs still needs a pack, and the Elliots could fit the bill. 

On 2/9/2018 at 6:15 PM, CaptainTightpants said:

The whole Prescott thing of her wanting to be a better human literally less than 24 hours after her fall from grace was a stretch. I would have been more inclined to believe that she had been working for Rei as a mole in Bancroft's house, than a sudden desire for redemption. How else would she even know where Ortega was? That was another plot left dangling. 

All of a sudden Bancroft admires Issac? And is going to leave everything to him? What bullshit is this? From what we have seen of Bancroft he would tie up the courts with a bunch of lawyers and influence. I did not buy him going softly into that good night for a second.

I can buy after devoting years -- decades -- hoping to get fully accepted by the Meths and doing all manner of questionable stuff, being ousted by what is from her perspective transparent lies might have her rethink some stuff. 

I also think that Bancroft came to realize Isaac had potential well before this episode. And I'll reiterate that Bancroft is broken when we see him in this last episode.

On 2/4/2018 at 4:59 PM, Scarlett45 said:

Although I loved Lizzie and her reunion with her parents (especially that she kept the synth) the “wife is jealous of the pregnant mistress trope” was too simple- I thought the show deserved better. Although Bancroft was foul, he was right, he wouldn’t have “real death-ed” that woman had he not been drugged.

 

On 2/5/2018 at 2:39 PM, Enero said:

I too thought the whole jealousy wife trope that was behind Lizzie's murder was ridiculous. Not only is the trope old and tired, but I found it hard to believe in 100+ years he'd been with his wife, a good bit of it I'm assuming entailed cheating, that Bancroft never knocked up a mistress who wanted to keep the baby. 

So who knows how many illegitimate children Bancroft has running around? Miriam was convinced that he only had the 23 by her. 

It could be that Bancroft kept her in the dark, or that he was more careful with the rest, or Prescott managed to deal with the others, or any number of things.

I also wonder about whether Bancroft would have RD'ed prostitutes eventually. If we buy into Quell's theory, eventually immortality would have led for him to break every moral line.

On 2/5/2018 at 9:16 PM, Cruella said:

What a weird show. I had hard time caring about most characters, with exception of AI, not sure what it's saying exactly. 

So we have the dumbest prostitute alive in Lizzie, who is working as a kind of snuffle whore and doesn't think it's a good idea to use good contraception method (in what, XXV century???). Then, after she turns out to be pregnant by married serial killer who enjoys strangling women to death, she's all "OMG, I want to have his babeeee! Eeee", and instead of trying to contact her john in some discreet way, thinks it's a good idea to show up at his house (how?) when he's not there (so not because he set up a meeting with her even) and announce to his wife that she's pregnant with her husbands' child. That was going to go over well, sister!

It's tragic that she was tortured till she lost her mind (why didn't they just destroy her stack I don't know, seems less cruel even), but it's not like she had much of it to lose to begin with. Of course, it's offset by cretin 300 old trillionaire who in XXV century still has no clue how not to impregnate random prostitutes he's using frequently. 

It's like this show is a cross between 80's soap opera where half of these plots would be right at home and noir futuristic cyberpank. 

I wonder if Bankroft will get out of this one, since he was under influence of drugs he didn't take voluntarily? Good lawyer should be able to use it, admittedly these people seemed to fire the one good lawyer this planet has, as they just meekly confessed to everything and didn't even try to get another one during arrest. You'd think there would be verifiable army of lawyers working 24/7 for Bankrofts, a-la Good Wife, but we always only saw this one chick, so... 

Also teem Rei, btw! Must be maddening to see your brother fall under the spell of the first woman he interacted for longer than a week (I imagine he only had time for prostitutes and ONS on his previous job). So he has hots for this unpleasant cult leader character with braids, and that means he's ready to join suicide mission to cull humanity's life limit (to only just 100 years?) and tries to drag his sister into it even. She doesn't want to fuck Quell so of course she would be non-plussed about having to die together with other fanatics. 

Not sure what this 653 solves, huh? All murderers will just destroy people's stacks, like they should have done from the get go! Like what sort of cretin wouldn't think of it. This "falling angel" chick was bizarre accident. What they should do instead is try to provide all humans with back ups and special cameras that films everything and sends this info to the satellite. These videos aren't seen by anyone without special federal order which only is issued when the person is killed, and they are destroyed in months' time otherwise. 

...

And how easy these meths to take down, huh? Harry Weinstein raped and harrassed lots of very prominent women, and he's still at large and making statements, but this super powerful guy kills one prostitute under influence of mind altering drugs and suddenly everyone's like "you're done, buddy". Now sure, it's good to see, but maybe Quell is overstating her case - the meths aren't that powerful. And where is your team of lawyers, people? 

I also find it annoying how Takeshi and Ortega fuck once because she's nostalgic for her ex-BF body, and everyone starts treating it as almost- love affair. These two barely got to know each other! Wasn't Takeshi supposed to be madly in love with threads-braids? How come it's all this deep melodrama of "You think you love her, don't you" and "I'll find someone who cares about me", when they only recently started hanging out together?  Like sure, they could start developing respect and sympathy for one another and in few months begin to experience conflicting feelings, but it was one night stand and suddenly it's all super dramatic between them. Rei is right, you can't really leave Takeshi with a chick for more than a week and not have him be totally devoted to her. 

I just think, if they wanted subtle melodrama about falling for a guy who wears your boyfriends' face, they should have had spent much more time on their interactions and subtle moments. Oh and get better actress, as she in no way conveyed the heartbreak she was supposed to be feeling every time she looks at Kovatch.

 Otherwise it is all totally unnecessary - couldn't Takeshi just protect her because Ortega and her family are good decent people and don't deserve to be caught in this shitstorm? Of course, Ortega is this magical person that everyone's willing to risk their life - and to die - to save.  

Lizzie was at a brothel where people engaged in S&M, which is different from being willing to get snuffed out. Bancroft wasn't a serial killer. He killed one woman under the influence of a drug that increased male aggression.

I'm assuming we're to take Lizzie as a teen-ager or nearish. I'm guessing she wouldn't be the first teen prostitute to have unrealistic thoughts about how a john actually loves her, or to seize on a pregnancy with a rich and powerful man in the hopes of being taken care of for the rest of her life. Also, Bancroft clearly had no idea how much emphasis and importance Miriam put on being the only mother of his children. It's entirely possible that Bancroft led Lizzie to think that Miriam would be indifferent to either the cheating or the child. 

In terms of torturing Lizzie rather than destroying her stack, it could be that Miriam wanted Lizzie to undergo that torture. It could be that Miriam thought that bringing about real death would potentially be more likely to get her caught. 

653 would address an issue that we saw in the series: if you are coded as Neo-Catholic (or presumably other religions), you can't be brought back to point authorities to your killer. So in the series, someone had managed to code a bunch of people as Neo-C so that they could be snuffed out and no one would investigate further. In terms of killers deciding to blow up people's stacks, sure they could always do that. But that is apparently considered a more serious crime than mere "sleeve death." Also, some murderers will not have the means or opportunity to destroy people's stacks. Finally, part of the problem in the Altered Carbon universe is there's a huge gulf between the haves and have-nots. It would be nice if everyone had the backups and satellite hookups that the very rich do. But from what we saw, that's not feasible for the majority.

Bancroft was at a low point when he was arrested. He'd believed for a long time that he was a murder victim, that the wife he venerated was a good person, and that there were moral lines he wouldn't cross. At one stroke, he found out all these things were untrue. He committed suicide because he couldn't deal with being a killer, his wife was also willing to kill a fetus and drive a woman mad. He lost the arrogance that characterized his appearances prior to the final episode. Now if there's a season 2, could he fight back against these charges? Probably. Mainly they come off the word of a witness who's now really dead in the form of Rei. 

Ortega liked Kovacs not just because of his wearing Riker's body but because of his own personality, I think. And Kovacs was under the impression that Quell has been dead for centuries. No real reason for her memory to stop him from falling in lust/love with someone else.

On 2/6/2018 at 4:29 PM, TheOtherOne said:

Yeah, this is where I had to admit I'm a bad person, because the show was clearly indicating I was supposed to feel bad for her and think the wife was a terrible person for her actions toward her husband and his mistress (prostitute? mistress? which is it? Because it felt like the show couldn't decide, tiptoeing the line in a way that her actions made no sense.)--and I thought they both had it coming. "You killed my bayyyyybeeeee!" Boo hoo. I'm pretty sure I'm always going to take the wronged spouse's side in that situation, but I think our prostitress got exactly the reaction she deserved. Idiot.

I'm against infidelity as anyone, but it seems like being kicked repeatedly until you miscarry and being tortured into madness does not fit that particular crime.

On 2/6/2018 at 7:04 PM, Cruella said:

Heh, me too, more or less. Of course, if it was real life - or even something with semblance of realism, I do not approve of kicking anyone in the stomach or torturing them into insanity. But the whole situation was so fake and unconvincing, that I just ended up rolling my eyes at Lizzie and the whole drama. Maybe if Bancroft seduced some 15 y.o. from the farm I could buy her behavior, but no prostitute is going to be so criminally naive. And sorry, but this baby is better off. I'd expect her to be all "you stuck alien monsters into my insides and tore my mind to shreds", not "you took my baby from me". Yeah, good fucking life this baby was going to have as a bastard child of psychotic daddy with rage issues and psychologically damaged prositute (how could she not be in this line of work?) as a mother. 

Question: how does she even know that it was his baby? Either she's his mistress and should be living in nice mansion with a way to communicate with him or (I think it's correct) she's a prostitute in a sleazy joint he enjoys visiting (what, Head in the Clouds was all booked?) and many people could be baby's daddy. I think anyone would assume, once she appeared in the mansion, that she came to shake them down for money. Also, is she wearing her original sleeve? I thought Bancroft liked to choke his victims and then gave them new sleeves (being good guy and all) and Lizzie was his fav. I admit I got confused with all his prostitutes, the ones he killed and didn't kill. 

Lizzie almost makes for compelling story if you take away the whole "mah baby" moosh. She could be just poor prostitute (I forgot if they explained why she had to work there when she has a loving father and all that) who witnessed a crime or something. 

I think we were told that Lizzie did used to have a regular customer, and presumably that's Bancroft. I assume medical science would be able to tell whose baby it was fairly easily. Current medical science can establish paternity in utero, so I'd have to assume super future science would easily be able to as well.

Bancroft would give his prostitutes new sleeves if he damaged their current ones too much, according to what the one prostitute said. So he may not have damaged Lizzie that much. As for being shaken down for money, the Bancrofts basically have an unlimited amount for all intents and purposes. What set Miriam off was being confronted with the notion that she was potentially not the only mother of Bancroft's kids. 

I think Vernon was in the military and mom got pinched for hacking, so Lizzie was on her own.

On 2/8/2018 at 4:03 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Well, they certainly shorten the cast list quite a bit, assuming this gets another season!  Poe (sniff!), Rei, and Mr. Leung (Rei's psycho lackey) are all dead.  Both Banecroft and Miriam are both likely going to prison for their respected murders.  Even the Elliots seem to be at a place where they likely won't factor back in anymore. 

Hypothetically, they could bring back anybody on this show. Poe could have a backup, or could get re-installed at the Raven. Rei and Leung could be double-sleeved, the Bancrofts could beat their raps or could have roles to play while in prison.  And Kovacs still needs a pack, and the Elliots could fit the bill. 

On 2/9/2018 at 6:15 PM, CaptainTightpants said:

The whole Prescott thing of her wanting to be a better human literally less than 24 hours after her fall from grace was a stretch. I would have been more inclined to believe that she had been working for Rei as a mole in Bancroft's house, than a sudden desire for redemption. How else would she even know where Ortega was? That was another plot left dangling. 

All of a sudden Bancroft admires Issac? And is going to leave everything to him? What bullshit is this? From what we have seen of Bancroft he would tie up the courts with a bunch of lawyers and influence. I did not buy him going softly into that good night for a second.

I can buy after devoting years -- decades -- hoping to get fully accepted by the Meths and doing all manner of questionable stuff, being ousted by what is from her perspective transparent lies might have her rethink some stuff. 

I also think that Bancroft came to realize Isaac had potential well before this episode. And I'll reiterate that Bancroft is broken when we see him in this last episode.

[marys1000]

Given that there were 23 children it was sort of glaring that they only concentrated on one.  Where were the other 22?  I get that adding in 22 characters is a nonstarter so maybe it was just a ok, this is what we are going to do oh well.

[MissLucas]

*Nitpicking alert*: Well, we did get to see one of the daughters - conveniently in her mother's sleeve. Still 21 left we never got to see. I also wonder why these folks had so many children if they're not interested in passing on their legacy and keep them in limbo for eternity. Apparently birth-control really sucks in the future.

[Enero]

11 hours ago, MissLucas said:

*Nitpicking alert*: Well, we did get to see one of the daughters - conveniently in her mother's sleeve. Still 21 left we never got to see. I also wonder why these folks had so many children if they're not interested in passing on their legacy and keep them in limbo for eternity. Apparently birth-control really sucks in the future.

I don’t think Miriam actually got pregnant and gave birth to the 21 children. With the technology that existed and their money, I’m thinking the kids were grown in a lab. Bancroft probably allowed her that hobby, making babies, because as she said the children was the only thing she had in that marriage, was the only thing that connected them and was exclusive to her.

[MrSmith]

Well, turns out that as long as I don't think about the logical inconsistencies in this show, I enjoyed it. As soon as I start thinking about the finer details and focusing on the logical inconsistencies, I start to sour. The highlight of this show was definitely the Poe artificial intelligence character. He was both the most human and most sympathetic, and also the coolest character. Who wouldn't want to be able to control a pair of laser-sighted Gatlin guns with a thought?

[MissLucas]

I think everybody loves Poe. I wish this had turned into some weird cyber-punk version of Magnum P.I. with Kovacs solving all sorts of cases (with the pink bag-pack) and Poe being his Higgins and the Gatling guns as Zeus and Apollo. Alas, it was not to be.

[Chaos Theory]

On 2/16/2018 at 8:16 AM, marys1000 said:

Given that there were 23 children it was sort of glaring that they only concentrated on one.  Where were the other 22?  I get that adding in 22 characters is a nonstarter so maybe it was just a ok, this is what we are going to do oh well.

There is no way a tv show even a Netflix one will focus on more then a one or two kids.  There was also the scene in one of the episodes with the daughter who liked to ride her mothers clone for a sex spin.  

On 2/13/2018 at 12:18 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

 

I can buy after devoting years -- decades -- hoping to get fully accepted by the Meths and doing all manner of questionable stuff, being ousted by what is from her perspective transparent lies might have her rethink some stuff. 

 

 

This was probably one of the more interesting side stories.  How much she was willing to do for the family and how quick they could and would turn on her because no matter how much she wanted to be one of them she would never be one of them.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Netfoot]

58 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

This was probably one of one of the more interesting side stories.  How much she was willing to do for the family and how quick they could and would turn on them because no matter how much she wanted to be one of them she would never be one of them.

Also, the cautionary tale:  Don't treat your employees like animals, lest one day when you least expect it, they bite you.

[tennisgurl]

Definitely an interesting series, and while it definitely had problems (and the whole Lizzie story wasn't really resolved very well), I am glad it watched it. Th atmosphere was really cool, and it raised a lot of interesting questions. I also made me want to check out the books to get more information and see where the story goes from here, and I think that says something good about an adaptation. 

Not Poe! Anyone but Poe! I cant believe I got so invested in an AI/sentient hotel, and he would give us some of the most emotional moments of the series. Hopefully Lizzie backed him up, and he can come back, if theres a season two. I also felt back for Ortegas friend. She was always bugging him to do stuff for her without hardly even a thank you, and now he died for trying to help her out. Again.

As much as the mystery of Bancroft and Lizzie turned out to be rather meh (its been like a million years, and we`re still stuck with the "wife takes out pregnant mistress/hooker" thing), I did enjoy Lizzie getting closure, and becoming a super badass taking down creepy rich assholes. The scene where she gently closed the eyes of the two poor dead hookers, and then killed the guy who killed them, was pretty memorable. And their family got to be together again!

Rei being just super crazy and behind everything was kind of meh as well, it seemed to wrap things up a little too much. I did end up liking Ortega more in these last few episodes, like when she killed the creepy little mustache freak, but she was still probably my least favorite character. 

As long as Kovac gets to get another cute pink backpack, I am sure he would be fine with any new body he can find. So, yeah, not a perfect show by any means, but I enjoyed it, and I thought it was a good Netflix style show. I might get annoyed with plot holes and some of the lamer resolutions if this was weekly, but watching in a binge makes it easier for me to get sucked into the world and the story. 

[Cruella]

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On 13.02.2018 at 8:18 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Lizzie was at a brothel where people engaged in S&M, which is different from being willing to get snuffed out.

 

But you do get snuffed out or at least get carved up seriously, you just come back in another body because, like another prosititute said, if Bancroft overdid the damage, he would buy another sleeve for the prostitute. People who do not have serious mental/personality problems do not enjoy torturing and strangling women, so if Lizzie doesn't see that he's a horrible candidate for a father she's at the level of stupid where I don't think she should be having children. And Bancroft, who beat the shit out of his own son, certainly shouldn't. 

If Bancroft is Lizzie's only customer, how come he wouldn't get her a place and give her money so she doesn't have to work in a brothel? He probably tips more than he would have to spend on it, he's trillionaire! Obviously he doesn't give a shit about her to even hire her as his personal whore, so what made Lizzie think he'd want a child with her?

Where did she get sample of his bio material to make paternity test in uthero? Did she keep some of his sperm, just in case. Ok, I guess that's possible, but it's pretty bizarre.

On 13.02.2018 at 8:18 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I also think that Bancroft came to realize Isaac had potential well before this episode. And I'll reiterate that Bancroft is broken when we see him in this last episode.

On 13.02.2018 at 8:18 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think Vernon was in the military and mom got pinched for hacking, so Lizzie was on her own.

On 08.02.2018 at 1:03 PM, thuganomics85 said:

So why the frak wouldn't Vernon, who presumably gets paid for military service,  sends his own daughter enough money that she doesn't have to work as a whore-for-torture? Or does this bizarre creature simply enjoys doing it? 

I don't buy that  functioning socipath who for 200+ years was top dog in ruthless world, at the top of ruthless business, would be broken so easily - over prositute he doesn't know, no less. A man this sensitive would be eaten alive even in modern big business. And he doesn't even have to do anything - his lawyers would do all the talking. He only needs to keep his mouth shut in front of authorities, you'd think it would work on automatic level for him. 

 

On 13.02.2018 at 8:18 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

In terms of torturing Lizzie rather than destroying her stack, it could be that Miriam wanted Lizzie to undergo that torture. It could be that Miriam thought that bringing about real death would potentially be more likely to get her caught. 

 

But... why?! Why would it be more likely? Especially since as we could see very clearly, NOT destroying her stack was exactly what got Miriam caught in the end! But why would a person of Miriam's power and influence not have means to destroy both the body and the stack, leaving only ashes? Sure, torture Lizzie for fun beforehand... and then destroy her fucking stack, you complete moron! No body, no stack, no evidence, no proof... 

Worst of all, we're supposed to think that the world is fucked, because these amoral meths have sooo much power and influence, but as we can see in the end, they are not, they are easier to bring down than modern millionaires, and more emotional and easier to guild-trip, to boot. So what drugs was that Quell person on? 

On 13.02.2018 at 8:18 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

If we buy into Quell's theory, eventually immortality would have led for him to break every moral line.

But this of course is very stupid and reductionist theory. Does anyone really think, that if Ser Terry Pratchett got to live for 100 more years, he's start strangling prositutes and raping kiddies, instead of writing more wonderful stories? Fuck Quell. 

 

Also, some murderers will not have the means or opportunity to destroy people's stacks.

But... why? Why wouldn't 99,9% of murderers be able to do that? What sort of super lazy fuck doesn't take 15 minutes to hack into somebody's neck and destroy the stack that would put them on ice? 

But by comparing body sleeve murder and stack-murder you bring up another interesting issue that wasn't again addressed. How come these Neo-C people don't have any visible marking? I think that sleeve-murder is considered "extreme sleeve damage" and naturally less bad than destroying somebody's stack. So if somebody damages your sleeve, murdering you (like gutting you with a knife for example), but doesn't know that you're Neo-C, what do you try this person for? They weren't trying to kill you, they "just" damaged your sleeve, which while bad isn't that big of a deal it seems. How come anyone would buy that snuffle whore from brothel wouldn't have this visible marking etc...

[Chicago Redshirt]

From what the show displayed, the brothel that Bancroft went to on the ground did not have patrons intentionally or even unintentionally kill its whores. It was simply offering consensual S&M. And yes, if Bancroft went too far, he would replace the whore's sleeve. I'll have to agree to disagree about whether people who enjoy consensual S&M are psychologically damaged in the present, let alone in a future where sleeve/stack technology exists and gives a different perspective on mind/body/self.

Bancroft is a terrible person, but if what you are looking for as a father is someone who can take care of all your and your child's material needs, he's a pretty good candidate. We don't get to know if Lizzie actually cared for Bancroft or was going for trying to get set up for life, or what. 

I don't know if we know that Bancroft was Lizzie's only customer, just that he was a "regular." It would just be speculating as to why Bancroft didn't set her up in a fancier place as a mistress, or even that he did not. All we saw from the show was that she worked at the brothel. For all we know, he did put Lizzie in a fancy love nest or even installed her in his sky mansion as a servant.

I would imagine that there would be numerous ways for Lizzie to get ahold of Bancroft's DNA if she wanted to -- hair, skin, saliva etc. after one of his visits. Offer him something to drink, or something to eat, and there would be plenty of DNA to test off the cup or the utensils, especially given future tech.  

We don't get enough backstory, I don't think, as to why Lizzie turned to prostitution. It could be that she was a runaway. It could be that whatever money Vernon made and was able to send wasn't enough to survive. It could be that she liked being a prostitute. 

Bancroft wasn't broken up over Lizzie's death alone. He was broken up over a) realizing that he had committed suicide and b) the wife he venerated not only manipulated him but was a murderer. Bancroft had an inflated sense of self-worth such that when the facts and the cops told him that he had committed suicide, he simply refused to believe them. He went to ridiculous lengths to try to prove that someone murdered him, from arranging to have Kovacs unfrozen in the first place to paying him a king's ransom to show someone else had killed him. For someone who thought of himself as a god, to be shown that he was willing to kill himself must have been quite a shock. On top of that, to learn that Miriam helped position him into breaking a line that he thought he wouldn't cross and brought him to the point where he killed himself...well, if you don't think all that would give even the most ruthless person pause, I don't know what to tell you.

In terms of real death, I would imagine that the police in Altered Carbon put more effort into solving such crimes because they are more serious, just as real-world police put more effort into investigating murders than assaults. Blow out Lizzie's stack, and the police are going to try to track down any number of leads Miriam may not even realize are out there. Leave her a crazy person on the ground, and the cops are probably not going to give a rat's ass about her.

Who only knows about how immortality might affect people? It's easy for the creators of Altered Carbon to rig the game, so to speak, and have its immortals all turn out to be monsters of one stripe or another.  I don't know anything about Terry Prachett's personal life to know what his morality might have been. For all I know, he was strangling prostitutes and raping kids while writing wonderful stories during whatever years he had. Even assuming for discussion's sake that he was and would continue to be an exceptional human being if he somehow was granted immortality, that doesn't mean that the premise of Altered Carbon that for the typical rich and powerful person, immortality would inevitably lead to immorality is incorrect. How many rich people already see themselves above the law in our society? It seems pretty easy to envision that effect would expand exponentially with virtual immortality and an even wider gap between haves and have nots than currently exists.

Just as in the real world, presumably in Altered Carbon some murderers don't have the luxury of time or means, some panic, and some are just stupid. In most actual crime stories, people do things or fail to do things that with the benefit of distance and hindsight are fairly obvious.

Also I would imagine that a stack is pretty hard to destroy, given a) its importance and b) it being made of an alien metal.

I'm not sure why there would be a need to have a visual cue that someone was neo-C or not. It would be encoded in their stack and basically anyone who might try to spin someone up again would be able to see well in advance that the person was neo-C. Indeed, it seems like quite the opposite -- having a visible marking that you are neo-C would be painting a target on you for a psycho to know he can kill you with relative impunity, because you won't be brought back to incriminate him.   

[MrSmith]

On 2/8/2018 at 2:27 PM, Jack Kerouac said:

I have a feeling she wasn't exactly hired because of her acting 'talent,' but more hired for the 'talents' she showed off in the bathtub scene - both of them.

Well, even if this is true, I'm not complaining!

Though, I'm not sure I'll watch a second season of this show because I've spent enough time thinking about the things that don't make sense in this season to have sufficiently lowered my opinion of the show.

[AngelKitty]

10 minutes ago, MrSmith said:

I'm not sure I'll watch a second season of this show because I've spent enough time thinking about the things that don't make sense in this season to have sufficiently lowered my opinion of the show.

Well, that's too bad, but I do agree that the more you think about it, the more it doesn't make sense.

I keep thinking about clones. Why would they be so expensive? I would think a society with this stack technology would work on developing and perfecting clone technology. There should be many companies in the cloning business, driving down prices.

One thing this show did for me, was to make me want to read the book and it's sequels, especially since people have said it is different.

[MrSmith]

5 minutes ago, AngelKitty said:

Well, that's too bad, but I do agree that the more you think about it, the more it doesn't make sense.

I keep thinking about clones. Why would they be so expensive? I would think a society with this stack technology would work on developing and perfecting clone technology. There should be many companies in the cloning business, driving down prices.

One thing this show did for me, was to make me want to read the book and it's sequels, especially since people have said it is different.

I agree that clones should be just about dirt cheap. After all, the demand for them would be both extremely high and unending. Even if I could live forever, why would I want to have to change to a body that looks different from my own every 80 to 100 years? (More often if I choose to remain young.) I can't imagine the difficulty in getting over the shock of looking in the mirror and not seeing your own face.

Also, with the well-known fact that people can be put into different bodies, why wouldn't the guys (who came looking for Kovacs in the hotel the first time) have been more willing to listen and believe that he wasn't the person they thought he was? Clearly, they're aware of that possibility and yet they refused to listen to what he was trying to tell them.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I think it's a given of supply and demand. Lots of demand means they can jack up the price, especially if there are only a few providers. The fancy company with the slogan "You deserve this sleeve" provided luxury sleeves. The rest of people can only get what they afford.  

[arc]

On 2/21/2018 at 3:27 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Also I would imagine that a stack is pretty hard to destroy, given a) its importance and b) it being made of an alien metal.

I don't think it's an alien metal, because they do seem to be able to make as many as society needs. Everyone gets a stack implant at 1, even the desperately poor, and the rich can buy multiple stacks for use for backup purposes. Bancroft destroyed his stack, so his backup was loaded into another stack.

More importantly, in ep 1 the hologram exposition lady said that a sharp blow to the nape of the neck might damage one's stack. But this didn't really pay off over the rest of the series, I guess.

[AngelKitty]

I thought I heard someone mention that it was alien technology, but really didn't think about that any more after Quell said she invented it. Does anybody remember what was said?