S06.E11: We Fall

[statsgirl]

Wendy Stanzler is a terrific director. The action scenes were as good as the quiet ones. Please have her replace Bamford who can't handle either. He screws up the actions scenes with NauseaCam, and the quiet ones by not lingering on them long enough.

I like the casting for Vince. He seemed equally menacing and sympathetic when he was talking to Curtis.  I can buy him as a cop who has been undercover for too long.

I loved William calling out Oliver on his lies and sticking to it.  From the mouths of babes...

Now that Felicity has said that Cayden James used her to plant a virus, does that mean that it's going to be a plot point

At the beginning of the episode, when Felicity phones Team Clueless to tell them that the city is blowing up and they should share information, Curtis looks at both Dinah and Rene before he agrees. Then after the call to Felicity is done, he turns to Rene and Dinah and asks if that was all right, I mean I know we had non-verbal agreement but you didn't actually say anything out loud..." It made me laugh because it's the worst of the anti-sexual assault movement, the idea that you have to get verbal agreement at every step and non-verbal isn't enough.

Also, Curtis never actually shared info with Felicity.  He asked her to look something up for him. She did, asked him if he wanted help and he said no, his team can handle it. And then they completely failed to save the kids on the bus.

2 hours ago, Mary0360 said:

Not much to add that hasn't already been praised or derided or brought up except this one ting thing that has been bugging me. Who, when they see their car has been toilet papered, continues to drive with the toilet paper still on?

Someone too full of their own self-importance.

[BkWurm1]

5 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Did anyone see him kill Cayden's minion? Because if OTA and the hypocrites killed everybody Vince should be in the clear. I doubt Cayden is gonna run ballistics test to check who killed the minion.

You have a point about no one getting back a report to Cayden James if Vince is the only one that made it back to him.  I ran off the assumption that since Boots (I really thought this was just some internet nickname given him) shouted out his betrayal, that he was exposed.  If even one minion got away, he would be, so I'm not sure what I was supposed to think. 

On a slightly different note, we're still supposed to think that the OTA and the Noobs aren't killing anyone, right?  Only disabling them (like how when you stab someone with an Arrow in the thigh they just pass out rather than scream in agony).  

 

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

She went on to voice the character of Leslie Tompkins on Batman: The Animated Series. Leslie went to med school with Thomas Wayne and knew who Bruce was and occasionally patched him up.

If you liked Leslie on the animated series, you might get a kick out of her very convoluted and complicated story on Gotham.  She's this close to being the classic Dr. Tompkins that looks after the people in the narrows.  Also, she was Gordons's gal for a while.  (It's complicated)

[UNOSEZ]

39 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And I think those that dislike OTA, specifically Oliver, will side with the newbs no matter what.

I can see that happening tho reading the posts most places I may be in the minority for not wanting all the blame to go to the newbs.. I haven't seen many posts coming to their aid

[tennisgurl]

18 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

But OTA isn't blameless and I feel like just because most of fandom loves OTA and never really wanted all or most of NTA they are getting the overwhelming Brunt of ire 

Its not that I think OTA is blameless, I think that the Newbies made the worst mistakes, and are acting like immature jerks about it. I could understand them not wanting to share all their info with OTA, or even if they want to start their own team, but their snotty, self riotous attitude towards OTA, even after they apologized and acknowledged that they made mistakes, is insufferable. Its the attitude pissing me off more than anything, although the rest isn't endearing me to them either. 

OTA have made mistakes (the whole Diggle arm twitch thing was just...stupid) but they tried to extend an olive branch, and when the Newbies told them to shove it, they still treated them with respect and understanding. It seems like the Newbies cant stand to be within 100 miles of OTA without being snotty (unless Curtis needs info I guess) and petulant, and acting like they weren't friends and teammates not so long ago. Dont forget, Oliver forgave Rene for turning him into the FBI. He didn't kick him out until he ignored orders right after that. And even after that, OTA was clearly trying to find a way to make the peace, admit their own faults, and start over, and even though the Newbies absolutely did things wrong (MORE things in my opinion) they just told OTA to fuck off, and have been huge assholes to them, even though OTA is still sharing info with them and is being perfectly civil towards them. 

Edited January 27, 2018 by tennisgurl

[tangerine95]

Loved this episode,well apart from the newbies stuff as usual.But it had a really great balance of action and emotion which arrow doesn't have a lot of the time.

Domestic olicity was amazing,they really made up for the lack of it in the previous episode.It was exactly what I wanted to see for them as a married couple.I expected to hate the dad,step mom to William stuff and tbh I usually do but it was really well done in this episode.They gave William some personality,family scenes were cute and it tied in to the larger theme of the episode plus they didn't drag out the angst and drama.The kid still can't act at all and it makes me sad to think how much better it would have been if they recast.But he sells how much William likes Felicity,I think he's a lot better with EBR than SA or maybe just gets better scenes with her.

Felicity's monologue was amazing,easily one of the best scenes the show has done.She really perfectly explained their life to a kid and we got some great insight into how Felicity deals with her fear of Oliver possibly not coming back one day.I loved seeing the fight scene from Felicity's perspective and how well she knows Oliver that she can predict his moves.EBR really killed it,no wonder SA had to tweet about it after watching the episode.The only negative there was the newbies being included while she talked about heroes because imo they don't deserve to be called that.

They were awful this week too,kinda crazy that the show is making them this unlikable.Idk what reason the audience or OTA would have to want a team reconciliation.The level of resentment they show for OTA and especially Oliver and even Felicity from Rene's comments is so weird if they want these people back on team arrow.Every episode it's more apparent to me that their issue isn't trust but straight up resentment whether they're aware of it or not.

Another weird thing is Digg and his desire to be GA.I guess they had to come up with something to justify him hiding his injury but this desire to be GA came out of nowhere imo.For years Digg is the guy who doesn't care about masks and codenames,he even made fun of it sometimes.He's the guy who only ever got a mask and codename for purely practical reasons and never seemed to put any big importance on either.And now suddenly cares so much that he's upset about not being GA.Pretty sure it will end with him realizing he can be as much of a hero as Spartan but I don't think that was ever a lesson he would need to learn.

[Featherhat]

Yeah they've also made mistakes as Felicity so eloquently put it this episode and Oliver last episode, but they've continually apologised and put saving the city ahead of everything else only for the whiny toddlers to continue their tantrums when it was Rene who sold the team out in the first place and the other two are complete hypocrites. Not to mention William was more mature and proactive this episode.

[tangerine95]

I think it's hard to feel sympathetic to why the newbies are upset because on the grand scale of things that happen on this show it's not a big deal.In this conflict the show literally proved OTA right in everything they did that the newbies found so horrible and made their actions understandable.

Like sure it's not nice to spy on team mates but when Oliver is told one of those 3 people will put you in jail for life,it seems like a clear choice.Especially considering team arrow runs surveillance on people they suspect all the time and we have Curtis literally doing it to Felicity just last season.It's never been considered this unimaginable act that can't be forgiven until now suddenly.Then they really have OTA apologize and get rejected,then be nice in the last episode and get rejected as well.I mean I'm sure a lot of people would side with OTA no matter what because we've watched them much longer but they're not giving the newbies anything to sympathise with them about.Expect maybe Rene with his kid and I've seen most people say his choice is understandable but the way he's dealing with that decision and the fall out is just awful.

[UNOSEZ]

I agree with everyone... The newbs have been Petty.. But For dinah she protected Lance who didn't kill evil Laurel.. She protected diggle wit his drug tremor thing.. So the only thing she really did for herself was the Vince thing.. And at the time of surveillance did they know abt the Laurel thing.. Also dig didn't stand up to Oliver and have her back... I know Dig was in a tuff spot but it wasn't like he didn't advocate patience and talking to them.. But when the rubber hit the road he followed Oliver.. Abd they're brothers been thru everything so ok.. But if I'm dinah I'm hurt plain as day.. As for Curtis he'd never ever given the team a reason to think he would sell them out.. Again. I'd be hurt and what were seeing (tho it's way extra now)  is the fallout.. Cuz what OTA said implicitly is... All you've done up to this point is for naught... At least that's how I internalized the interaction.. Again the newbs have been Petty especially Curtis tho I think he's got reason to be upset.. Less so for Dinah who did keep Vince under wraps and even less for Rene for not going to ollie or Quentin when he got caught by FBI lady

[SmallScreenDiva]

 

I dunno, guys, I think it's the ring that makes Oliver even hotter ;)

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, UNOSEZ said:

I agree with everyone... The newbs have been Petty.. But For dinah she protected Lance who didn't kill evil Laurel.. She protected diggle wit his drug tremor thing.. So the only thing she really did for herself was the Vince thing.. And at the time of surveillance did they know abt the Laurel thing.. Also dig didn't stand up to Oliver and have her back... I know Dig was in a tuff spot but it wasn't like he didn't advocate patience and talking to them.. But when the rubber hit the road he followed Oliver.. Abd they're brothers been thru everything so ok.. But if I'm dinah I'm hurt plain as day.. As for Curtis he'd never ever given the team a reason to think he would sell them out.. Again. I'd be hurt and what were seeing (tho it's way extra now)  is the fallout.. Cuz what OTA said implicitly is... All you've done up to this point is for naught... At least that's how I internalized the interaction.. Again the newbs have been Petty especially Curtis tho I think he's got reason to be upset.. Less so for Dinah who did keep Vince under wraps and even less for Rene for not going to ollie or Quentin when he got caught by FBI lady

My problem with Curtis and Dinah being so hurt they were a suspect is that before Oliver knew for a fact someone on the team betrayed them, he and Felicity and Diggle did trust the B team implicitly.  It's not like the newbs were never trusted by the OTA.  They had their complete trust right up til the moment it became fact that someone on the team betrayed Oliver.  

I still find it unreasonable for any of the newbs to be hurt that they didn't merit automatic exoneration like Oliver did with Diggle and Felicity.  With Dinah, she was currently in the very middle of being disloyal to the team so why she thought she should get a pass from being a suspect I don't get, not to mention when Oliver asked her to explain herself, she told him it was none of his business.  With Curtis, I don't see how he logically could think he was as close to Oliver or had earned as much trust as either the woman Oliver just married or the man he called brother for the last 6 years.  

And in regards to Curtis, he had been implicitly trusted until they had proof someone they trusted broke their trust.  And even if it wasn't just a matter of OTA checking out everyone left on the team, Curtis surely couldn't think he'd behaved in a manner toward them that was without reproach, not when that very day he'd been bitching about the team costing him his marriage and wishing he'd never been part of it not to mention saying disparaging things about love right to Oliver and Felicity at their reception.    

Both Curtis and Dinah should have been sad that they'd done things that would on the surface make sense for the rest of the team to check them out for but that's on them, not the OTA.  And in the OTA checking out EVERYONE else on the team, it was showing that they were being fair and not prejudging the newbs except for what they would actually find in surveilling them.  There was no playing favorites.  Felicity didn't say look at Rene, he's an ass to me all the time or leave Curtis alone, he's my bud.  She was being fair to the others and willing to give them the benefit of the doubt as well.  And all this is wrapped in around the really big fact that Rene WAS betraying Oliver so none of this was hysteria.    

The newbs act like until they are as blindly trusted as the OTA trusts each other, they can never trust the OTA but trust is built over time.  And it took a lot of ups and downs for Oliver, Diggle and Felicity to reach where they were now and it's absurd for the newbs to think they should be allowed to skip over any of the hard work.  And it's absurd for Rene to feel like he was the one wronged when he couldn't even suck it up and be humble, follow orders and work to regain trust during the very next mission even while he was STILL in the process of betraying Oliver.  And that the others were too disgusted by how Rene was treated and not trusted - based on him proving he was not trustworthy - to stay on the team just makes my brain hurt.  

Edited January 27, 2018 by BkWurm1

[KenyaJ]

20 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

 

I dunno, guys, I think it's the ring that makes Oliver even hotter ;)

Unquestionably. 

[Hiveminder]

What are their rings?  I thought Felicity’s looked gold in the glimpses I’ve caught, but Oliver’s looks kind of silvery/platinum there. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Y’all stop being nice. It’s NOObs, not newbs, or newbies or even NTA, which could be construed as New, instead of Not. So it’s NOObs or NOT Team Arrow/ NotTA.

In my humble opinion.

[statsgirl]

Now that we know that Felicity loved Oliver from the time he brought her the shot-up laptop, I need to know when Oliver started to love Felicity.  For the sake of the comments that Felicity had a one-sided crush for two years and then Olicity came out of nowhere in s3.

8 hours ago, bethy said:

You still can! The heart is just now in the lower right corner of the post.

Thanks. I'm not good with change.

6 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

Well, it’s not exactly a groundbreaking idea, and who said anything about regular meetings. Oliver said Robert would call a meeting when something was going on. That’s not regular. 

It apparently didn't work either. given Oliver's extreme behaviour as a teenager and young adult.

3 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

I don't see how they aren't working with ota.

I don't see how they are working with OTA.

• Felicity called up Curtis to share information given that NTA didn't even notice that the city was falling apart since they were so busy patting themselves on the back for being awesome. Curtis, having got Dinah's and Rene's permission, agreed to share information.
• Vince gives Curtis information. Curtis calls Felicity to get some further information from her; doesn't say where he got his info and tells Felicity they don't need help handling it. Felicity figures out what's going on and Oliver and Diggle go to the place and save the kids on the bus and others.
• Vince gives Curtis info about the latest attack.  Felicity figures it out for herself . When Oliver and Diggle get there, Curtis is snotty to Oliver. Oliver and Diggle brush it off and fight anyway.

Every time, NTA has rejected any help from OTA other than Felicity's tech work. They really think they can do it all.

18 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

With Dinah, she was currently in the very middle of being disloyal to the team so why she thought she should get a pass from being a suspect I don't get, not to mention when Oliver asked her to explain herself, she told him it was none of his business.  With Curtis, I don't see how he logically could think he was as close to Oliver or had earned as much trust as either the woman Oliver just married or the man he called brother for the last 6 years.  

The other thing about Dinah is that when Oliver found her, she was angry, bitter and rootless.  She was in even worse shape than Rene.  OTA gave her a purpose, a job at SCPD and a family..  Both Dinah's and Rene's lives got better from knowing OTA and for that, they owe them. It's not a level playing field.

From the You Have Failed This City thread:

Quote

Curtis: "1, 2, 3. Suit up!"
Rene: "Yeah.I don't think we should say 'suit up' all together."
Curtis: "It'd be really cool if we did, though."
Rene: "I don't think it would be really cool."
Curtis: "I mean, let's just be different than OTA. Let's be, like, NTA and say it together."
Dinah: "Oh god."
Rene: "But we are NTA, and we're cooler without having to say 'suit up.'"
Curtis: "Just saying this is kind of what Oliver was always doing."
Rene: "I'm just saying we should just try it one time."

They really are the Keystone Cops of the show.

[BkWurm1]

If I didn't find the NTA a bunch of petulant ingrates, maybe their comedy routine would be amusing but until I don't want to smack them for their attitude, nothing is funny.  

[SmallScreenDiva]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

They really are the Keystone Cops of the show.

That scene felt like the looooooooooooongest scene ever in the history of the show. Such a waste of screen time.

[insomniadreams88]

57 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

If I didn't find the NTA a bunch of petulant ingrates, maybe their comedy routine would be amusing but until I don't want to smack them for their attitude, nothing is funny.  

Same. I wanted that scene to end when their suits rolled out. 

Their attitudes make me want to see as little of them as possible. 

[thegirlsleuth]

I had a very busy week and so am catching up on my faves:  Arrow, Black Lightning, and The Good Place.  I really liked this episode--there were some nice stunts, some cool villain moments, and an all time great speech.  And, of course, excellent kissing.  Between Felicity's slinky saunter and the kiss that turned into a slow dance, they did a beautiful job conveying desire without taking their clothes off.  And I kind of laugh, because I'm sure the script said something like this:

Felicity: Good morning.

Oliver: Morning.

They kiss.

Felicity's speech really captured the nature of being mature superheroes--facing down a foe or watching someone you love face death, and then getting up in the morning and doing it again.  I watched Black Lightning immediately after and was struck by how much Felicity and Lynn would get along, especially when Lynn described what she thought being a superhero's girlfriend would be like versus what it was actually like.  Felicity knows what it is really like. 

The actor who plays William is beginning to play well off Emily and Stephen, but was terrible in the bus scene.  I guess that's what happens when you cast exclusively based on looks.  I have noticed that much like Oliver has a Felicity voice, he now also has a William voice, also gentle but distinct from the Felicity voice.

The newbies are terrible when they are talking either to OTA or with OTA, but I didn't mind them so much when it was just the three of them together--in the subway scene they balanced each other nicely.  If the show sent them to fight crime in Gotham, far away from Star City, I'm sure they would do an excellent job.  When they negotiated who was going to be in charge I kept flashing to the scene from Monty Python and The Holy Grail, when King Arthur encounters the peasants who shouted "Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" after announcing their were an autonomous collective.

I laughed out loud when Dig cut off Curtis's ramble with: "We got your message.  Thanks for reaching out." Nice delivery by David Ramsey.

The villains are still a problem. Vince is interesting, but it was not very satisfying when it was revealed he was Vigilante and I still don't get why he would settle in Starling before Dinah arrived.  Cayden James's "dead son" motivation would just be boring except he emerged out of the Felicity/Helix story, so I feel like there's a disconnect.  I also have a hard time believing that if he had received a jump drive from Corto Maltese that he wouldn't have been able to figure out it was fake. Assuming Cayden isn't lying about the dead son, there must be someone pulling the strings.  Cayden pulled Siren off the Island, so it isn't her, plus she's more chaotic psycho than criminal mastermind. I have no impression of Richard Dragon. If someone was setting up Oliver, the people who can wield a bow and arrow are Oliver, Thea, Roy, Malcolm, Chase, Nyssa, and Talia. For me, Talia would be the most interesting and the best skills.  

In more shallow news, I really loved Felicity's dress, the neat color blocking and the great zipper up the back.  It is, alas, sold out at Neiman Marcus.

Edited January 27, 2018 by thegirlsleuth

[JamieLynn832002]

6 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

Vince is interesting, but it was not very satisfying when it was revealed he was Vigilante and I still don't get why he would settle in Starling before Dinah arrived

That's the part I really don't get either. Why would he settle in a city that already had many vigilantes if Dinah wasn't there yet? I can see him leaving Central City but why move to Star City? 

[kes0704]

1 hour ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

That scene felt like the looooooooooooongest scene ever in the history of the show. Such a waste of screen time.

I thought that scene was a bit jarring because it felt like the writers were trying to hard to make NoTA the funny, new, “cool” kids on the playground.  

My reaction was “let’s get this over with so we can all move on”. 

[Mellowyellow]

2 minutes ago, jaye.elle said:

Random question - when was Felicity on tv? The kid said he saw "William's mum" on TV but I can't think of when? To be fair I'm suffering from a headache due to the stupid heat right now, but I couldn't think of a reason why she would be shown on TV unless Oliver had a function.

Thanksgiving! She was interviewed by a reporter at the food drive.

[bijoux]

3 minutes ago, jaye.elle said:

Random question - when was Felicity on tv? The kid said he saw "William's mum" on TV but I can't think of when? To be fair I'm suffering from a headache due to the stupid heat right now, but I couldn't think of a reason why she would be shown on TV unless Oliver had a function.

At Thanksgiving at least, when they had the food drive and she was being interviewed. 

Just now, Mellowyellow said:

Thanksgiving! She was interviewed by a reporter at the food drive.

Jinx. :)

[BkWurm1]

Her picture or a clip of her could very well also be shown right around the time the Mayor of the city got married.  

[Featherhat]

48 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Her picture or a clip of her could very well also be shown right around the time the Mayor of the city got married.  

Yeah Oliver's still like the most famous person in the city and ep 4 showed they were something of a celebrity couple in Star City so I guess it made both the legit local news and the gossip channels/columns. 

[tv echo]

I would have been more sympathetic to the newbies if OTA had started spying on them from the moment they joined Team Arrow in S5, and not in response to solid intel about a newbie's betrayal.

Edited January 27, 2018 by tv echo

[MissLucas]

The writing for the newbies is just bad, the conflict feels forced and the longer this arc goes the worse it gets. Of course with this show I have no idea whether the writers want me to root for the newbies or loathe them. Looks like the majority of the audience is not in favor but it's not the first time the show stubbornly kept pushing a character that wasn't working to the forefront. I just hope it doesn't take them as long as with Laurel to find a solution that works.  Since there are three of them it's a tad harder to ignore.

[tv echo]

On 1/26/2018 at 8:01 PM, Featherhat said:

Yeah they've also made mistakes as Felicity so eloquently put it this episode and Oliver last episode, but they've continually apologised and put saving the city ahead of everything else only for the whiny toddlers to continue their tantrums when it was Rene who sold the team out in the first place and the other two are complete hypocrites. Not to mention William was more mature and proactive this episode.

Team Toddlers! ;)

FYI, I've compiled a list of all the alternative names used to refer to the newbies' team (by fans and media) and posted them in the Supporting Cast thread here. 

[Chaser]

When Felicity said the package that framed Oliver came from Corto Maltese, I wondered if Malcolm was alive for a moment.

[SmallScreenDiva]

9 minutes ago, Chaser said:

When Felicity said the package that framed Oliver came from Corto Maltese, I wondered if Malcolm was alive for a moment.

My first thought as well. 

[Sake614]

22 hours ago, quarks said:

7. BEN GALE!  I laughed.  Kinda wondering if that was in the script or ad-libbed - it was funny either way.

 

I actually rewound to make sure I heard what I thought I heard. And when I realized i did, I laughed so hard! Guess someone on the writing staff is a LOST fan and I’m sure ME got a kick out of that. Wonder if anyone in the cast got the reference?

[SmallScreenDiva]

13 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

What are their rings?  I thought Felicity’s looked gold in the glimpses I’ve caught, but Oliver’s looks kind of silvery/platinum there. 

I think they're both silvery/platinum, at least in the scenes I've seen where they are side by side.

[MissL]

1 hour ago, Sake614 said:

 

I actually rewound to make sure I heard what I thought I heard. And when I realized i did, I laughed so hard! Guess someone on the writing staff is a LOST fan and I’m sure ME got a kick out of that. Wonder if anyone in the cast got the reference?

Heh. I also rewound with a ..."wait did he just say BEN GALE!"

I found myself flipping off the newbies every time they were on screen. Good thing about all of this is all the Felicity/Diggle scenes! Yay! I don't have to watch my OTA interacting and propping characters I don't care about over and over. All the Dinah/Diggle scenes were driving me batty. Same for Curtis/Felicity. 

Gonna go watch some season 1/2 OTA now just to keep riding that high. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Has anyone seen a GIF of Diggle cutting off Curtis with "we got your message, thanks for reaching out." I know it won't fully capture the tone David Ramsey used to deliver it but it was packed with a lot of "fuck off."

[Quark]

Decent episode. I do think the theme of this episode with Cayden James hacking the city's infrastructure could have been used for the finale.

I reckon it's Talia that gave Cayden James the falsified information. Makes sense with Nyssa coming back. Hopefully we get round 2 :D .

[Sake614]

Yeah i have no use for the newbies, never have. From the start I called them the kiddie squad and that’s exactly how they’ll stay in my eyes. 

[KirkB]

On 1/26/2018 at 8:51 AM, insomniadreams88 said:

As for Vince, at this point, I don't even care if he's undercover or lying to the newbies because I think I prefer him to the newbies? So sure, let's have him be good(ish) and I'd maybe even take him on the team at the end of the season over the three whiny kids.

This, right here, is an indication of a writing problem because I feel the same way. At this point I would much rather have Vince/Vigilante (that is still such a stupid name, especially since his MO is to kill criminals and he himself just recently said vigilantes ARE criminals, so does that mean he's going to kill himself?) join Oliver and company than have any of the newbies come back (except Rory, him I would welcome with open arms).

Though I must admit, Dinah stopping the train was impressive.

Even William didn't annoy me this episode. Which is saying something.

And I'd be willing to bet it was Chase who killed James' kid but good luck explaining that.

[thegirlsleuth]

15 minutes ago, KirkB said:

And I'd be willing to bet it was Chase who killed James' kid but good luck explaining that.

Helix knew that Felicity was willing to make a deal because Chase was such a super villain.  It would be terrible storytelling, giving all the conflict to a character who is dead, and therefore offscreen but this is Arrow, so its possible. 

Something that I thought was poorly done in this episode: When Felicity told Diggle that Cayden had tricked her into infecting the facility, it was sort of after the fact with little response from either Felicity or Diggle.   Something this show does a fair amount is for people to have big revelations off screen.  

Also, since Elena set the whole raid on the server facility in motion, I think it would be kind of hilarious is she was the puppet master pulling the strings of all the other villains, with Cayden just being her stooge, but since she doesn't punch things I think that probably won't happen.

Edited January 27, 2018 by thegirlsleuth
Elena!

[Hiveminder]

10 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

Helix knew that Felicity was willing to make a deal because Chase was such a super villain.  It would be terrible storytelling, giving all the conflict to a character who is dead, and therefore offscreen but this is Arrow, so its possible. 

Something that I thought was poorly done in this episode: When Felicity told Diggle that Cayden had tricked her into infecting the facility, it was sort of after the fact with little response from either Felicity or Diggle.   Something this show does a fair amount is for people to have big revelations off screen.  

Also, since Elena set the whole raid on the server facility in motion, I think it would be kind of hilarious is she was the puppet master pulling the strings of all the other villains, with Cayden just being her stooge, but since she doesn't punch things I think that probably won't happen.

A lens is one of the people I've considered for puppetmaster, but I hope it's not her. I like her, and I don't want Felicity to lose her friend. 

[catrox14]

.So, I feel stupid, but it just occurs to me, is Billy supposed to be Cayden James son?

[apinknightmare]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

.So, I feel stupid, but it just occurs to me, is Billy supposed to be Cayden James son?

No, he was already dead when Oliver went to recruit Dinah in Hub City or wherever the hell she was when Cayden’s son was killed. 

[BkWurm1]

But Billy as the son was a bandied about theory until (thankfully) disproven.  

Edited January 28, 2018 by BkWurm1

[Hiveminder]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

.So, I feel stupid, but it just occurs to me, is Billy supposed to be Cayden James son?

Cayden's son's name is Owen, and, officially, he's just missing. Someone sent CJ information that GA killed him, but he's not legally dead. Besides the story is CJ's son was killed by a stray arrow that missed its intended target. Oliver absolutely intended to hit Billy. He just thought Billy was Prometheus. 

Edited January 28, 2018 by Hiveminder

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

Cayden's son's name is Owen, and, officially, he's just missing. Someone sent CJ information that GA killed him, but he's not legally dead. Besides the story is CJ's son was killed by a stray arrow that missed its intended target. Oliver absolutely intended to hit Billy. He just thought Billy was Prometheus. 

CJ didn't say it was a stray arrow. He just said he missed his target. Literally the dialogue is

Quote

I didn't kill your son.

Yes, you did. One year ago this very day right here in Star City, you missed your intended target, but your arrow found its way into my boy. Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=arrow&episode=s06e11

That doesn't say it's an errant arrow that randomly hit an innocent.

We've never heard of one of Oliver's arrows going stray and hitting an innocent person. IMO that would have been something noted in the show which would have seriously eaten up Oliver. And if someone died by an errant arrow from the Green Arrow surely that would have been in the news or somehow something would have been made of it.

At that time, Oliver thought he was killing  Prometheus. So that's why I'm thinking Billy is Cayden's son. It's also not been said that Cayden has only one son, that I can recollect, (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

I'm trying to think back to what happened on Jan 25, 2017? That was the episode following the mid season finale of s5 when Oliver accidentally killed Billy.  What I don't know is how much time elapsed between that and the Jan 25 episode.

I'm putting in my back pocket that Billy is Cayden's son. 

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

you missed your intended target, but your arrow found its way into my boy.

I still think the implication is that Oliver was aiming at one target and the arrow went astray and hit someone else. And it is a big deal because Oliver doesn't miss like that ever.  So I went from super pissed they were retconning his ability to vindicated when he had an alibi and couldn't have killed the son during the time that Cayden James was claiming.  

I can see how the show could fudge and try to say well technically his intended target was Prometheus but since Oliver and Felicity instantly knew by the date he wasn't in town to have killed him, I think we are safe from it being Billy.  Someone though could have been inspired by what happened to Billy to set their plan in motion.  

[catrox14]

Just now, BkWurm1 said:

I still think the implication is that Oliver was aiming at one target and the arrow went astray and hit someone else. And it is a big deal because Oliver doesn't miss like that ever.  So I went from super pissed they were retconning his ability to vindicated when he had an alibi and couldn't have killed the son during the time that Cayden James was claiming.  

I can see how the show could fudge and try to say well technically his intended target was Prometheus but since Oliver and Felicity instantly knew by the date he wasn't in town to have killed him, I think we are safe from it being Billy.  Someone though could have been inspired by what happened to Billy to set their plan in motion.  

I feel like I must be having a brain lapse here.

Prometheus WAS Oliver's intended target in the fight in What We Leave Behind.  That's who Oliver believed was in Promotheus' costume and that turned out to be Billy. I'm not following how that would be a fudge. Am I completely NOT remembering how that went down correctly? 

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I feel like I must be having a brain lapse here.

Prometheus WAS Oliver's intended target in the fight in What We Leave Behind.  That's who Oliver believed was in Promotheus' costume and that turned out to be Billy. I'm not following how that would be a fudge. Am I completely NOT remembering how that went down correctly? 

That’s how it happened but Cayden’s son died when Oliver was out of town recruiting Dinah - so unless that info turns out not to be true, Billy wasn’t Cayden’s son. 

[catrox14]

Just now, apinknightmare said:

That’s how it happened but Cayden’s son died when Oliver was out of town recruiting Dinah - so unless that info turns out not to be true, Billy wasn’t Cayden’s son. 

Okay at least I remember how it happened. And to the 2nd point that's why I mentioned that Cayden might have another son.

IMO, it would be rather anticlimactic for the show to be so specific about a year ago; to hire the likes of Michael Emerson to play genius hacker bad guy who hatches such a big plan over the death of a character that has not been seen on screen before. And I think Oliver's confusion and reaction was him thinking back  to himself "I've never missed anyone. There's never been a stray arrow".  Oliver looked completely befuddled by that.  And it would tie Cayden more directly to Felicity in a personal way beyond her helping him get out of ARGUS.  I'm probably 100% wrong but I'm still floating it is Billy.

[lemotomato]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm probably 100% wrong but I'm still floating it is Billy.

Cayden James also said that his son was killed "a year ago today", meaning Jan 25, 2017. Billy was killed in early December.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Cayden James also said that his son was killed "a year ago today", meaning Jan 25, 2017. Billy was killed in early December.

I know. I mentioned that in a previous post that maybe you didn't see :). I'm trying to recollect in show how much time passed between Billy's death and Jan 25, 2017. Was that supposed to be a time passing of a week or so? Was it a month in show? I really don't remember.   That still doesn't talk me out of my theory, which everyone is free to disregard.

[lemotomato]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Was that supposed to be a time passing of a week or so? Was it a month in show? I really don't remember.

IIRC, 510 happened almost immediately after 509. But in the beginning of 511, the dialogue implied that Oliver and the team had spent a significant amount of time looking for a new BC after he decided to start the search at the end of 510. (I think Felicity said something like he went through a bunch of candidates and none of them were good enough for him).