S06.E11: We Fall

[bijoux]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

 Dinah is gonna get burned by Vigilante.

Looking forward to it.

[GHScorpiosRule]

So, first, a big THANK YOU! Shout out to @BkWurm1 for you know what. And now I'm going to pull a page from her book and rewatch so I can delve in deeper about the episode. Here are my initial thoughts about it:

This was mostly a very good episode, except for the three whiny, arrogant, ungrateful, hypocritical wish they were as good a team as OTA asses. If not for Vince giving Curtis the intel that he was a double agent, those three would still be hanging out wherever, unaware of what was going on in the city, and that Dinah, a cop, was unaware of what happened to her captain, and she had the utter gall to call Oliver out for waiting 24 hours?! GTFO, you twat.

The voiceover of Felicity telling William about what Oliver does, intercut with the scenes of what he was doing, was very beautifully done, and it sort of reminded me of what Gordon told his son at the end of The Dark Knight, although the latter was more dismal and sad. But this show is known for stealing (yes, stealing!) stuff from Batman.

There was that asshole, Rene, again, automatically assuming the Felicity was spying on them, when she was being the ADULT and professional, to let them know what EVUHL!FINCH was doing; Curtis' passive-aggressive not earned attitude about "thanking" her and telling her "they" didn't need to share information with Oliver, Diggle and Felicity anymore. Because "they" now had the double agent on "their" side. I spent most of the night telling Curtis to FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! FUCK OFF! 

Then there was Dinah's attitude about how Oliver/Diggle/Felicity weren't trustworthy. Just for that, I hope Vince is a TRIPLE agent, just so I can watch the look of "shock! BETRAAAAAAYAAAAAL!" on her fucking face.

[tennisgurl]

I really missed the Live Thread last night. Who else can I share my sarcastic comments and Olicity squeeing with?!?! Really good episode, especially when you fast forward through any bitchy Newbies. 

I seriously have no clue how they can expect us to still root for the Newbies after their terrible attitudes. They are such smug, whinny assholes, who cant go five seconds without being snippy towards OTA, and smug in their supposed moral highground. I cant decide what their worst moment was, when Curtis called Felicity to ask for information, and then dickishly told her he didn't really want their help, or when Oliver was all "good job guys!" and Curtis was like "this changes nothing losers!". How is it that Oliver is the one who is coming off as more team oriented? 

Dina using her scream to stop the train was cool though. 

Olicity domestic love! Oh the married cuteness! Hug, kisses, family time, Felicity being a super cool step mom, it was just everything I wanted and more. Plus, William saying that now if Oliver dies, he will still have Felicity as a parent (my heart!) made me so happy. The speech Felicity gave about Oliver's work as a superhero going on over the fight scene was awesome. Not only was it an adorable and awesome moment for their relationship (she loved him since day one!) but also a speech about superheroes in general, and how its a hard, dangerous life, but its also important and worthy of respect and compassion. Because, yeah, being a superhero can really suck, as we have seen countless time in this franchise, and can lead to pain and death, but its important damn it! 

I have to say, I like the guy who plays Vigilante a lot, and he is selling me pretty well on him being more of an anti hero than a bad guy, and he and Dina have decent chemistry. I can certainly get behind his redemption more than I can Black Sirens. 

Seriously, SHUT UP NEWBIES is my new show catch phrase.  

[Angel12d]

7 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

When they were a United team. They aren't united anymore. 

Okay we're just gonna go around in circles here, haha, so I'll just say, IMO, they're fine to keep their own intel BEFORE they agreed to share it. The minute they agreed to share, they should have shared. 

Edited January 26, 2018 by Angel12d

[catrox14]

It seemed like a retcon to me that Robert called family meetings to discuss things. Or is that just me not remembering

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Okay we're just gonna go around in circles here, haha, so I'll just say: they're fine to keep their own intel BEFORE they agreed to share it. The minute they agreed to share, they should have shared. 

Dinah's a fucking hypocrite, you don't get to bitch that OTA took 24 hours to inform you and then keep secrets AFTER agreeing to share intel and not be a fucking hypocrite.  You also don't get to whine like a little brat about trust and then excuse Curtis for keeping you in the dark about Vincent.  

That whole team if full of shitty, bratty, hypocritical assholes, all of them Curtis, Dinah and Rene are hypocrites

Edited January 26, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Seriously, SHUT UP NEWBIES is my new show catch phrase. 

Mine is more Fuck Off, Newbies

[Angel12d]

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Dinah's a fucking hypocrite, you don't get to bitch that OTA took 24 hours to inform you and then keep secrets AFTER agreeing to share intel and not be a fucking hypocrite.  You also don't get to whine like a little brat about trust and then excuse Curtis for keeping you in the dark about Vincent.  

That whole team if full of shiny, bratty, hypocritical assholes, all of them Curtis, Dinah and Rene are hypocrites

This. I truly do not understand what they're doing with this storyline. I just...I'm at a loss. I've gone from mild dislike/annoyance of the newbies to full on hatred and there's no going back from that, for me anyway. I'd love to know what the writers were thinking because if they think this is going to make me want one massive Team Arrow as their endgame, they've got another thing coming. 

[calliope1975]

I don't think Vigilante being a double agent is minor info. That's pretty big info in my eyes. That it wasn't shared is about right with these horrible hypocrites. At this point, I don't know that there's anything they could do to make me want them to rejoin OTA. I'd rather OTA go find new heroes to partner with. 

[tv echo]

14 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

The voiceover of Felicity telling William about what Oliver does, intercut with the scenes of what he was doing, was very beautifully done, and it sort of reminded me of what Gordon told his son at the end of The Dark Knight, although the latter was more dismal and sad. But this show is known for stealing (yes, stealing!) stuff from Batman.

That voiceover segment made me think of that scene in LOTR: The Two Towers where Sam gave his "it's like those great stories...worth fighting for" speech which became a voiceover over scenes of the aftermath of the Helm's Deep and Isengard battles.

If OTA had learned that Vince (or really anyone in Cayden's cabal of villains) was undercover and became their inside informant, and withheld that info from NTA, then NTA would be screaming their heads off that OTA breached their agreement to share intel.

Edited January 26, 2018 by tv echo

[Primal Slayer]

3 minutes ago, tv echo said:

If OTA had learned that Vince was undercover and became their inside informant, and withheld that info from NTA, then NTA would be screaming their heads off that OTA breached their agreement to share intel.

And if they did then I'd tell them shut up. We'll have to see how much info each share.

[insomniadreams88]

Rewatching the episode and I can't get over Dinah saying, "I would rather have a team I can trust..." How exactly can the newbies trust each other? I feel like that's one of the biggest head-scratchers on Arrow right now. 

[Morrigan2575]

7 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

This. I truly do not understand what they're doing with this storyline. I just...I'm at a loss. I've gone from mild dislike/annoyance of the newbies to full on hatred and there's no going back from that, for me anyway. I'd love to know what the writers were thinking because if they think this is going to make me want one massive Team Arrow as their endgame, they've got another thing coming. 

I honestly believe they figure fans will forgive/forget and be distracted easily.  Personally, I'm hoping they just keep this stupid arrangement, keep Team WannaB out of the Lair and on their own, occasionally helping/working with OTA 

Apparently that's the only way to get actual OTA and Delicity scenes is to remove all the new toys from the Lair.

[Angel12d]

Just now, Morrigan2575 said:

I honestly believe they figure fans will forgive/forget and be distracted easily.  Personally, I'm hoping they just keep this stupid arrangement, keep Team WannaB out of the Lair and on their own, occasionally helping/working with OTA 

Apparently that's the only way to get actual OTA and Delicity scenes is to remove all the new toys from the Lair.

I know some fans will just forget once the team is back together. Selective memory and all that. But I definitely won't. I hold grudges. ?

Yeah, I actually think this team split is for the best simply because I'm suddenly allowed OTA and Delicity scenes. Coincidence, much? ?

Also, the team being split up for fight scenes is so much better than every single mask in the field at once. I'm so over that.

[insomniadreams88]

4 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I honestly believe they figure fans will forgive/forget and be distracted easily.  Personally, I'm hoping they just keep this stupid arrangement, keep Team WannaB out of the Lair and on their own, occasionally helping/working with OTA 

Apparently that's the only way to get actual OTA and Delicity scenes is to remove all the new toys from the Lair.

Right? I see no downside to this split. I love it. Give me all the OTA and Delicity and I'm happy, especially since that was shoved aside for the newbies last season and earlier this season.  

I wonder if they honestly think that the fact that the newbies are all masks automatically wins them some fans. Which, you know, is stupid. But might actually be enough for some people. 

[Primal Slayer]

5 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Rewatching the episode and I can't get over Dinah saying, "I would rather have a team I can trust..." How exactly can the newbies trust each other? I feel like that's one of the biggest head-scratchers on Arrow right now. 

Why wouldn't they be able to trust each other though? They've established rules and have had each other's backs since last year.

[tennisgurl]

24 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Rewatching the episode and I can't get over Dinah saying, "I would rather have a team I can trust..." How exactly can the newbies trust each other? I feel like that's one of the biggest head-scratchers on Arrow right now. 

Its amazing to me how much they trust Rene, considering he already turned on Oliver. Yeah he felt bad and tried to get out of it, but if Watson shows up with more evidence again, and threatens him, would he turn on Curtis and Dina? Wouldn't they at least worry about that possibility. 

Edited January 26, 2018 by tennisgurl

[bijoux]

3 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Why wouldn't they be able to trust each other though? They've established rules and have had each other's backs since last year.

Because Rene went behind everyone’s back when talking to Watson and endangering every member of TA.

Because Dinah kept seeing the Vigilante, a dude who’s been targeting the team since last year, secret from everyone, and endangering every member of TA.

Edited January 26, 2018 by bijoux

[tangerine95]

I don't think it makes sense that the newbies trust each other so much because I mean Rene sold Oliver out.I don't think we're supposed to think it makes a difference that it was Oliver,if he was told your kid or Dinah and Curtis then he would have sold them out too.I don't see how they don't have an issue with that at all.Dinah kept Vigilante from them all,it's not like she told Curtis and Rene either.Feels to me like what's uniting them actually is spite and resentment for OTA tbh.

[catrox14]

I almost feel like the only way the Newbies "trust" each other is built upon MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction.

They were all disloyal to Oliver in some way. They all lied to each other under Oliver at some point. It's like they have to at this point not fuck each other over even though they could easily.

IMO, this  "coalition of the willing"  will fall apart as soon they have something each to really lose.  Rene's daughter, Vigilante will sow the seed of distrust and something will break down between Curtis and Rene. I expect Paul will become a factor for Curtis in some way. I mean why wouldn't he. Whether or not they are together Curtis IMO would dump his classmates if Paul's life was being used against Curtis.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I think the scene that pissed me off the most, well, alongside with Curtis' 'we don't need you to share anymore' asshattery, was Rene's "This doesn't change things" line to Oliver, after Oliver praised him. You would think that Oliver was scraping down to his arrogant rank ass and had saved it or something. When that wasn't the case at all. Just check yourself, ASSHOLE.

[popgoesculture]

3 hours ago, Angel12d said:

As for Cayden James, I really like Michael Emerson but it's not really doing anything for me anymore. I think I started losing interest the moment they made his motivation about his son. IT'S ALWAYS VENGEANCE FOR SONS, I'M SO BORED. And for one terrible moment I though they were going to make Billy his son, given that Oliver supposedly killed him a year ago, and I was like NooooooOOOOoooo! Haha. 

This times a million! I'm so tired of these stupid vengeance plots. IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE. He receives one package and boom, he's gonna take down a city to take down one dude? I hope this pays off but with the show's track record, I'm skeptical.

 

Everything EBR related was wonderful -- I loved her scenes with Oliver, Diggle, and even William. That voiceover with interspersed with the fight scenes was beautiful and so touching... and just a great look into what Felicity feels when she sees her team (and hubby!) in danger, something that we haven't gotten much of over six seasons. It was just really well done and one of the best moments of the show. She makes me handwave William's stilted acting because he seems way more relaxed in her presence than anyone else on set. 

 

The newbies are terrible people. I started fast forwarding their scenes because they were so smug and ridiculous and self-congratulatory. I don't know how the show comes back from this (without getting rid of Curtis at least. Seriously, show? You kill PIKE in an elevator and yet I have to listen to Curtis and Rene smarm it up and be assholes all the time?? Lame). Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity are in the right -- they're the mature ones (something I never thought I'd say about Oliver!). Also, more Thea. I miss her in the field and wish she would come back as Speedy. 

[bethy]

Has anyone from Arrow commented on the reactions to Team Petulance? I’m legit curious to know if this level of disdain was what they were going for. 

[calliope1975]

I know The Outsiders has been the name for various members of the DC Universe, but I associate it with the Nightwing/Arsenal run, and I wanted to smack Curtis for even suggesting it. Those three goobs wish they were as good as Dick Grayson and Roy Harper.

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

Agreeing to share info doesn't equate to sharing every minute detail. Sharing major details about saving peoples lives, where to go, evil plans etc is what they probably expect to be shared. 

This isn’t a minute detail though. What if OTA runs into undercover Vigilante tomorrow, gets in a fight, and Vigilante gets killed because OTA didn’t know that he is (supposedly, he could still be playing a long con) a double agent? Now their inside man (and a guy Dinah clearly still cares about) is dead because Team Dunderheads didn’t share information after they not only agreed to share information but were complaining just last episode about OTA taking too long to share information. 

54 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It seemed like a retcon to me that Robert called family meetings to discuss things. Or is that just me not remembering

We don’t really know a lot about the Queens’ daily family lives pre-island, so the only thing being retconned is our assumptions. 

[insomniadreams88]

In my rewatch of the episode, the newbies' attitudes before/after they team up in the field is even worse and I want them to come back groveling on their knees whenever this split ends even more. 

Curtis comes off as wanting to be seen equal as everyone else, in terms of trust levels and importance in the field. Dinah's actually not that bad, other than not telling them that Vince gave them the intel, but that's on all the newbies, so I'm not as hard on her about that in that scene. And Rene's acting like he did nothing wrong and like Oliver did something to him, not him betraying Oliver with his "this doesn't change anything" attitude. 

[Chaser]

They have taken the Newbies to the point were I don't want them back at all. A point where I can't even for see OTA ever wanting them back.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Hiveminder said:

We don’t really know a lot about the Queens’ daily family lives pre-island, so the only thing being retconned is our assumptions. 

hey clearly had major secrets before pre-Island considering that's how the boat was sank. Robert had secrets. Moira had secrets. Oliver said he had little parental guidance when he admonished Moira to more closely parent Thea post island. So I don't think audience assumptions are the problem at all here.  I think there is more to suggest they didn't have family meetings more than they did.

[popgoesculture]

51 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It seemed like a retcon to me that Robert called family meetings to discuss things. Or is that just me not remembering

It felt like that to me, too. I always got the impression that Robert and Moira were kind of hands off about a lot of stuff, especially Robert? Like aren't the Queens known for NOT talking about things?

[Angel12d]

One of my favorite parts of Felicity's speech was her being able to predict Oliver's fighting technique when she was like "Now he'll kick and punch..." It was a really nice touch to show not only how well she knows him but probably how long she's being watching him do this. But really that whole scene was incredible. I give a lot of kudos to the editor/director for that (which compared to last week's shaky cam was like night and day).

[UNOSEZ]

I felt Oliver was trying too hard when he was all " good jib guys"...as of right now they've got their respective teams and made it known that he doesn't trust and "couldn't be in the field" with him so let's just keep it there

[Primal Slayer]

7 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

This isn’t a minute detail though. What if OTA runs into undercover Vigilante tomorrow, gets in a fight, and Vigilante gets killed because OTA didn’t know that he is (supposedly, he could still be playing a long con) a double agent? Now their inside man (and a guy Dinah clearly still cares about) is dead because Team Dunderheads didn’t share information after they not only agreed to share information but were complaining just last episode about OTA taking too long to share information. 

We don’t really know a lot about the Queens’ daily family lives pre-island, so the only thing being retconned is our assumptions. 

I can see your point but when someone goes deep undercover you don't tell everyone in the office about it. When Oliver went deep undercover he didn't tell anyone on the team about it, when Artemis and Kaldur went deep undercover in YJ they didn't tell majority of the team about it since sometimes the more people who know about makes the mission more complicated. 

Whose to say they tell OTA about it but OTA doesn't trust them? It's a damned if you do damned if you don't type situation.

Time will only tell if they were right to withhold the information or not.

[GigiM]

The newbies make absolutely no sense. Its a whole lot of empty bluster.  Honestly, I think they are very insecure and its not going to take much to bring down their house of cards.

Felicity's monologue brought tears to my eyes.  I hope we have more emotional scenes like this.  I feel like this has been missing for a while.

[BkWurm1]

3 hours ago, Angel12d said:

As for Cayden James, I really like Michael Emerson but it's not really doing anything for me anymore. I think I started losing interest the moment they made his motivation about his son. IT'S ALWAYS VENGEANCE FOR SONS, I'M SO BORED. And for one terrible moment I though they were going to make Billy his son, given that Oliver supposedly killed him a year ago, and I was like NooooooOOOOoooo! Haha. 

Anyone wonder if it was Chase who killed his son though? They said he was shot by an arrow while Oliver was in Hub City and I can only think of Chase and Malcolm Merlyn who ran around shooting arrows last season. And Merlyn technically wasn't in the show then anyway...

At this point all we know for sure it the son vanished and James was sent something that said the Green Arrow was responsible.  He might not even have been killed by an arrow.  

3 hours ago, Chaser said:

I'm watching the episode now.

I really wish they had done more with Pike when they had him. 

Rene automatically assuming Felicity is tracking and hacking them .... I swear he has more of a beef with her than he does Oliver and Diggle. I don't get why.

They are going so hard with Vigilant being one of the good guys that I'm concerned. It's too early. 

I thought Olivers assistant was Carly Pope for a moment. It was unsettling.

Felicity has this new maturity to her that was beautiful. Felicity is so good she can't hack herself.

 Curtis is a little shit. 

I don't understand Diggle's GA envy. It's weak sauce and really undermines what the character has done.

Dinahs cry can stop a train, why isn't BS dead? 

Im loving the William scenes, but the boy still can't act at all. Lol

Was there any explanation as to why half the villains weren't there? 

4

What really gets me about the line about Felicity bugging them is she NEVER bugged them. She tracked their GPS, used outside cams and looked at their emails, texts and social media.  She never planted a bug on them (That would be Cutis with his tracking nanites) and they didn't even monitor them for a whole day and yet they are convinced they are still being watched?  The overreaction burns.  

 

I also don't really get Diggle's reaction.  Why does it matter if he is in the Green Arrow outfit or out there as Spartan?  Was it really just the city recognition?  It feels off.  Like something has to come of it and I don't understand what.  

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

Great episode. 

The newbies team includes one person who back-stabbed Oliver and another person who lied to protect and help a guy who tried to kill Oliver. Yet OTA continues to act like mature adults, sharing intel with and providing assistance to the newbies without complaint. On the other hand, NTA Team Hypocrites continues to act like resentful children, making snarky remarks about members of OTA and withholding key intel from them.

So is Vince really a double agent, or is he just manipulating Dinah? If he is really a double agent, then why? Does he have a personal vendetta against Cayden, or is it just part of his mission to take down criminals? If so, then why didn't he just kill Cayden? And also kill Diaz, Anatoly and Black Siren, since killing is the Vigilante's usual M.O.?  Or maybe, is he now working for some law enforcement agency (like ARGUS)? But none of these possibilities would explain or excuse his repeated attempts to kill Oliver.*

(* If the Vigilante really is undercover, then that ups the odds of him being redeemed and maybe killed. However, if he turns out to be a manipulative, irredeemable bad guy, then I think that ups the odds of Black Siren being redeemed. I think one of them will be redeemed and the other one will not.)

Biggest mystery: Who manipulated Cayden James with the false evidence from Corto Maltese? Wouldn't he know if electronic evidence was doctored? Or was he blinded by emotion? The predictable suspect would be someone from within his existing cabal of villains, like Diaz/Dragon. A wild guess would be Noah Kuttler, who's also good with computers. An even wilder guess would be William's grandparents, who might blame Oliver for their daughter's death and for taking away their grandson. 

If the person pulling the strings behind the scenes turns out to be a regular guy, then it would be very Civil War-esque. You know, someone who knows he isn't strong enough to defeat the superhero, so he manipulates a powerful person to fight the superhero for him.

My favorite scene in this episode, by far, was Felicity's really moving speech to William about Oliver, heroism, sacrifice, and love, and how she's watched him in action so many times that she can almost predict his fighting moves. Her monologue playing out against the backdrop of the teams fighting the bad guys was just really emotional and effective.

3

Vince killed the dude on the Villan's team I could never put a name to so he's no longer undercover in the cabal.  Seems he missed his opportunity to take them down when he was sitting around in their lair with them but maybe he was holding out for the bomb's location?  

Do we even know that the info James had on the USB drive was anything more than a letter saying "this is how your son died" so there might not be actual electronic tampering.  And I guess since Alena somehow checked all the computers on Corte Maltese, the info didn't get downloaded on the drive from the island, it had to have come from somewhere else.  

1 hour ago, UNOSEZ said:

The newbies are in their feelings sure.. But I'm not as upset abt it yet as some of y'all are.. I thought they did well and we've seen new or in this case newly independent heroes be a bit cocky...  So to ne that tracks.. If on the roof or even before  curtis tells Ollie and Co.  That the info came from vigilante then all you get is ppl arguing abt whether to trust him. And to be fair it probably woulda had merits both ways.. But it deff woulda led to an argument... Now that he's saved rene they at least have more proof to take to OTA to say he may be on our side..  So as a command decision it made sense to me... I thought the episode was great and I hope this tenor and style keep up. 

It's the hypocrisy that gets me of them not understanding that sometimes there are good reasons not to be upfront about everything right away.  And if the Newbs haven't filled them in on Vince's switch in allegiance, then I will judge even more harshly.    Not telling feels more like them not wanting to own up to needing help.  

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

It seemed like a retcon to me that Robert called family meetings to discuss things. Or is that just me not remembering

Maybe he had really lame unimportant family meetings?  Cause yeah, didn't seem like the Queens.  

13 minutes ago, bethy said:

Has anyone from Arrow commented on the reactions to Team Petulance? I’m legit curious to know if this level of disdain was what they were going for. 

I've seen a few things from WB and the CW and the Writer's room on Twitter and while they aren't saying anything specific beyond are you ready for OTA or which team would you choose, they keep on choosing pictures of DInah to promote.  

[insomniadreams88]

8 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

I felt Oliver was trying too hard when he was all " good jib guys"...as of right now they've got their respective teams and made it known that he doesn't trust and "couldn't be in the field" with him so let's just keep it there

But there was nothing about the "good job" that suggested Oliver thought the newbies would come back (and really, I don't see why OTA would even want them back), but Rene acted like Oliver went, "hey, good job, guys, so everything's back to how it used to be, right?" If Oliver hadn't said anything, I could see Rene or Curtis making some remark about how Oliver and Diggle couldn't have done it without them because that's the way they're acting right now. The newbies, in this case Rene, wanted to get the last word in. 

[apinknightmare]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

Agreeing to share info doesn't equate to sharing every minute detail. Sharing major details about saving peoples lives, where to go, evil plans etc is what they probably expect to be shared. 

Wouldn’t it be helpful to know that one of the bad guys might be a turncoat? The newbies got the chance to figure out whether they wanted to trust Vince’s info considering who he’s working for. Oliver and co should too - being secretive about it is pretty rich coming from a team constantly bitching about trust. But then being a bunch of whiny hypocrites is sadly the foundation of this idiot storyline. 

[insomniadreams88]

1 minute ago, BkWurm1 said:

What really gets me about the line about Felicity bugging them is she NEVER bugged them. She tracked their GPS, used outside cams and looked at their emails, texts and social media.  She never planted a bug on them (That would be Cutis with his tracking nanites) and they didn't even monitor them for a whole day and yet they are convinced they are still being watched?  The overreaction burns.  

 

I also don't really get Diggle's reaction.  Why does it matter if he is in the Green Arrow outfit or out there as Spartan?  Was it really just the city recognition?  It feels off.  Like something has to come of it and I don't understand what. 

I've resigned myself to accepting that they're never going to bring up Curtis actually feeding Felicity nanites without her knowledge (and hating it so, so much). And even if they do, Curtis will probably say something about OTA thinking they're better because that's how Curtis is acting. Or he'll act like the nanites are no big deal and tracking their phones and having a program read through their emails and texts is so much worse.

And yeah, I really don't get Diggle wanting to be GA. Does he like the hood? Has he decided he likes using a bow and arrows? We've never seen anything from Diggle that suggests he wants the recognition, and I hate that so far, all we have is that alien brainwashing made him think that was his "perfect life." 

[Hiveminder]

28 minutes ago, popgoesculture said:

This times a million! I'm so tired of these stupid vengeance plots. IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE. He receives one package and boom, he's gonna take down a city to take down one dude? I hope this pays off but with the show's track record, I'm skeptical.

At this point, CJ seems like a pretty pathetic, sad person. He’s done all of these things: murdered people, terrorized a city, countless other illegal acts. Why? Because he can’t handle his grief? Was he so desperate to punish someone for his son’s death that he believed the evidence without checking it out thoroughly? I’d think anyone with his skills and not blinded by a need for petty revenge would have taken maybe a day to track Oliver’s whereabouts on that day and realize he wasn’t even in Star City, but he apparently didn’t care to. 

Cayden James thinks he’s this mastermind chess master, but he’s a pawn. Someone is playing him like a violin. 

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

hey clearly had major secrets before pre-Island considering that's how the boat was sank. Robert had secrets. Moira had secrets. Oliver said he had little parental guidance when he admonished Moira to more closely parent Thea post island. So I don't think audience assumptions are the problem at all here.  I think there is more to suggest they didn't have family meetings more than they did.

I’ve never bought into the idea that Moira and Robert were emotionally distant parents. There’s too much affection from Oliver and Thea for that, and not in a needy, I just want my parents’ attention way. They didn’t teach and discipline their children properly, but they were clearly present. 

1 minute ago, Primal Slayer said:

I can see your point but when someone goes deep undercover you don't tell everyone in the office about it. When Oliver went deep undercover he didn't tell anyone on the team about it, when Artemis and Kaldur went deep undercover in YJ they didn't tell majority of the team about it since sometimes the more people who know about makes the mission more complicated. 

Whose to say they tell OTA about it but OTA doesn't trust them? It's a damned if you do damned if you don't type situation.

Time will only tell if they were right to withhold the information or not.

And that was a failure on his part. He should have trusted his team with the truth then, and relied on them more. It’s not an example Team F-wits should follow. 

The reason for not telling everyone in the office about an undercover cop is to protect the cop from being found out. OTA is not going to sell Vigilante out, and those idiots damn well know that. If they were concerned about OTA not wanting to act on the information they could have waited until after the fight to tell them (Like Curtis just did ten minutes ago.), but they should know. 

[Hiveminder]

10 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

 

And yeah, I really don't get Diggle wanting to be GA. Does he like the hood? Has he decided he likes using a bow and arrows? We've never seen anything from Diggle that suggests he wants the recognition, and I hate that so far, all we have is that alien brainwashing made him think that was his "perfect life." 

Diggle has been keeping a dark secret all these years. Something he yearned to get out in the open, but was just too afraid to speak aloud. 

...

Green is his favorite color. 

[way2interested]

12 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I also don't really get Diggle's reaction.  Why does it matter if he is in the Green Arrow outfit or out there as Spartan?  Was it really just the city recognition?  It feels off.  Like something has to come of it and I don't understand what.  

From what I got with Diggle (and this may just be personal interpretation/justification), and not really from this episode but from like how the plot was framed, is that he wants to be GA because of the leadership/symbolism aspect of being GA. As in, Oliver asking him to be the GA permanently meant a lot to him, that Oliver trusts him with his legacy and with the team and with the city on his shoulders. However, then beyond that he realized that it wasn't just he wanted to honor Oliver's role but that he actually liked being the leader and being the symbol and being the one who is pushing the legacy and vision of strength to the team, which is one of the reasons why he didn't want to reveal his injury. Now that Oliver took it back and it's unknown when/if he'll ever get that role back he misses it but knows how impractical it would be to tell Oliver to stand aside like Oliver did in 6a.

[UNOSEZ]

4 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I've resigned myself to accepting that they're never going to bring up Curtis actually feeding Felicity nanites without her knowledge (and hating it so, so much). And even if they do, Curtis will probably say something about OTA thinking they're better because that's how Curtis is acting. Or he'll act like the nanites are no big deal and tracking their phones and having a program read through their emails and texts is so much worse.

And yeah, I really don't get Diggle wanting to be GA. Does he like the hood? Has he decided he likes using a bow and arrows? We've never seen anything from Diggle that suggests he wants the recognition, and I hate that so far, all we have is that alien brainwashing made him think that was his "perfect life." 

We can bring it up as long as we bring up that Felicity while going thru her darkest timeline helped break cayden James out of argus jail ( who cares if diggles wife loses her job)  putting the entire team in danger while she was lying abt working with helix. Or that the company she wanted to create with the partner who created the chip that gave her the ABILITY TO WALK AGAIN.. She kinda took their seed money to bail her fiance outta jail.. Without consulting him.. Or really consulting him abt anything else... 

 

I think the newbies have been Petty and cocky.. The cockiness because they are newly on their own.. All the cw heroes seem to go thru that.. The pettyness.. At least from Curtis and Dinah I can understand.. Rene it's a bit more hard to swallow tho when its ur kid ppl do dumb things.. Obviously it was written this way to cause drama because in universe Rene probably goes to Quentin and says look FBI lady is on to me... What do we do.. But hey it's done

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, UNOSEZ said:

We can bring it up as long as we bring up that Felicity while going thru her darkest timeline helped break cayden James out of argus jail ( who cares if diggles wife loses her job)  putting the entire team in danger while she was lying abt working with helix. Or that the company she wanted to create with the partner who created the chip that gave her the ABILITY TO WALK AGAIN.. She kinda took their seed money to bail her fiance outta jail.. Without consulting him.. Or really consulting him abt anything else...

Those things have been addressed directly on the show though? Curtis tracking Felicity has not. 

[BunsenBurner]

Loved everything Olicity. 

Excellent scene with Felicity and Will as they watched the fight. 

The crybabies: Exterminate exterminate  exterminate 

Why wasn’t BC at work? Why didn’t she go there immediately?  Why wasn’t she doing her real job?

Is Thea going to take the fall for Oliver for paying the ransom? Then she and Roy go off into the sunset?

Can we please keep the two writers and the directors for at least half of the episodes?

[BkWurm1]

Quote

 

  1 HOUR AGO, GHSCORPIOSRULE SAID:

The voiceover of Felicity telling William about what Oliver does, intercut with the scenes of what he was doing, was very beautifully done, and it sort of reminded me of what Gordon told his son at the end of The Dark Knight, although the latter was more dismal and sad. But this show is known for stealing (yes, stealing!) stuff from Batman.

 

It's fitting since the whole premise of Star City being cut off and held hostage is from the other Batman movie, The Dark Knight Rises.  It's the gift that keeps giving.  Do they just play the trilogy in a loop in the writers' room?

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I’ve never bought into the idea that Moira and Robert were emotionally distant parents. There’s too much affection from Oliver and Thea for that, and not in a needy, I just want my parents’ attention way. They didn’t teach and discipline their children properly, but they were clearly present. 

24 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

 I wasn'ttalking about them being emotionally distant parents. They loved ther children no doubt. I'm saying that I don't think they were the type of parents to have familymeetings. A parent can be emotionally attached to their children and still be  lax in parenting. Meaning little discipline, little consequences until something extreme happens. I don't see them sitting down to discuss Olivers college choices or what Robert was doing on Queens Gambit nor Oliver telling Robert he was bringing Sarah and Robert not telling him that was not allowed.  They struck me as permissive parents who only stepped in when shit got serious like Oliver knocking up BM. seems to me the closest thing to a family meeting of consequences e, like Oliver here admitting he lied to William, was between Oliver and Robert before he shot t himself in the head in front of Oliver.

I stand by that it's a sneaky retcon. Or Olivers fantasy and wanting William to belive the best if his family.

[insomniadreams88]

You know what I have to complain about? The CW's Arrow Twitter using the newbies to promote this episode as much as they did last night and now today. Pretty sure they're promoting the newbies more than Oliver. 

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, BunsenBurner said:

Loved everything Olicity. 

Excellent scene with Felicity and Will as they watched the fight. 

The crybabies: Exterminate exterminate  exterminate 

Why wasn’t BC at work? Why didn’t she go there immediately?  Why wasn’t she doing her real job?

Is Thea going to take the fall for Oliver for paying the ransom? Then she and Roy go off into the sunset?

Can we please keep the two writers and the directors for at least half of the episodes?

 

I think Oliver will have paid as Mayor using city funds. If Cayden James hadn't at this point cut off outside communication, I would have suggested that Felicity just get the money from some shady guy and they could keep paying as long as they wanted.  

[statsgirl]

I like the parallel of Oliver thinking he had to team up with Malcolm Merlyn to defeat Ra's al Ghul and Felicity thinking she had to break Cayden James out of ARGUS' illegal detention to defeat Prometheus.  Both of those started with the best intentions and then went bad.

So many good thing about this episode.  Given the writers, that surprises me.

I'm especially surprised at how much I liked the William scene.  I liked him asking Felicity, not "I know what coral is" Oliver.  I liked William telling the bully "at least she can read, unlike your mom" and being the one to get the kids off the bus.  (Other than Dinah blasting the train, NTA was rather pathetic in that situation.)  And of course the scene of Felicity talking to William about what it means to love a vigilante over the fight scene.  I've never enjoyed a fight so much.

I wonder if William is more able to get close to Felicity than he is to Oliver because there isn't all that parent/child baggage.  For sure he feels more able to let Oliver out into the field because he knows he'll have Felicity if anything happens to Oliver.  (I wonder what happened to that family that Samantha move to Central City to be near.)

What can I say about Team Pissy?  How incredibly naive they are?  What huge hypocrites they are?  Curtis keeping the secret that he got the info from Vigilante even though their biggest beef against Oliver was that he was keeping secrets.  Rene angrily jumping to the conclusion that Felicity is spying on them even though the only reason she did was because one of them had turned traitor.  Dinah saying that she'd rather have a team she can trust over good tech.  (I"m sure Curtis felt good hearing that, Dinah.) Accepting info from OTA and then telling OTA to keep out because they would handle it.  All three being utterly clueless as they pat themselves on the back for not being OTA and missing that the city is falling apart.

Way to go, NTA.  Oliver should train William, bring Thea back on the team, and then he's better off than he was with you three dweebs.

[catrox14]

Or rather that he had some guidance with parenting so he wasn't totally winging it

[BkWurm1]

I can see Robert and Moira having "Family meetings" when they had to be gone for a long time or if the kids were fighting or Thea's pony came down with alopecia, like long before Oliver went off to college but the show certainly didn't mention them before.