Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[BkWurm1]

16 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Well, another possible reason they could stay together is that I actually don't think that The Flash focuses NEARLY as much on the relationship as Arrow did with O/F. In fact, I personally don't think WestAllen has had enough focus. 

I mean, I don't know if this is their intention, but it could be that they want to treat them as solid and not focus on them so that they don't feel like they have to give them too much relationship drama and can just have them be together while the show focuses on the action, villains, etc.

I honestly don't think there's been enough romance, but I guess they think the Flash audience doesn't care as much about that as they do the other stuff.

From the way some people talked about the relationship focus on Arrow, you'd think that Arrow focused on it a lot more, but honestly, it was mostly just exiting happily in the background for most of season 4 until they blew it up. But that people knew the blow up was coming, I've been told, put a dark angsty cloud over everything after a certain point.   The prior year in season 3, they were barely together, but the possibility of a relationship had a lot of focus and angst but the actual relationship not so much.  Iris and Barry certainly have had more focus on the early stages of a relationship and they only just moved it together so I'd expect you're going to get a bunch more, but what they've had in an episode feels about on par with what most Arrow episodes were like.  The difference I think is that Felicity is also a team member so more chances for banter. 

(Iris is also a team member but she's not the one on the coms during a mission usually)

Edited December 23, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Chaser]

If The Flash keeps WestAllen solid, I would be impressed. They would have learned something from the Olicity break up.

Unfortunely I think it's all a Soap. TV or Comics, the most solid, perfect, drama-free couples will still break up over a papercut.

[Trini]

36 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I think one of the biggest barriers in terms of keeping Barry and Iris together from now on is that Kreisburg can't write a maturen adult romance.

Agreed. What gives me hope is that Kreisberg seems to be more involved with Supergirl right now, and the Helbings are doing most of the showrunning this season. They seem to like the pairing -- even though they still suck at writing it. ::sigh::

33 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Being on TV and telling their story means  there are different rules and one of the TV rules (and I agree it's a dumb one) is that every couple that is happy has to break up and not just a one or two episode break ,but a real break up.  I don't see that changing for Iris and Barry.  Sure, it might be outside reasons, but I expect it nontheless.  

I've seen at least one show break this rule; similar to Barry and Iris, it was made clear from the pilot that this main couple was the 'endgame' couple. I'm hoping Westallen breaks the trend. We'll see.

33 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

But yeah, so Barry and Iris are living together now with tragedy already looming.  Their clock is ticking.  My money is still on Barry breaking it off because he thinks it will keep Iris safe since I don't think Iris will ever be allowed to be really pissed off enough to break up with Barry even if he deserves it, lol. 

With Savitar, I really don't think their relationship status is going to change his mind about killing Iris. Iris going into hiding, I can see happening. But if Savitar is just trying to target Barry's loved ones, then Joe and Wally would have to go too. I don't know if they'd split up the cast like that.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Trini

[BkWurm1]

24 minutes ago, Trini said:

I've seen at least one show break this rule; similar to Barry and Iris, it was made clear from the pilot that this main couple was the 'endgame' couple. I'm hoping Westallen breaks the trend. We'll see.

Always curious. What show are you thinking of?

24 minutes ago, Trini said:

With Savitar, I really don't think their relationship status is going to change his mind about killing Iris. Iris going into hiding, I can see happening. But if Savitar is just trying to target his loved ones, then Joe and Wally would have to go too. I don't know if they'd split up the cast like that.

I get what you are saying about Joe and Wally but logic doesn't always drive these things, lol.

I should be clear though, I would LOVE to be wrong.  I think the Moonlighting Curse is the worst thing to have ever happened to television but while I'm rooting for you to be right, I'm bracing for the worst.   

Edited December 23, 2016 by BkWurm1

[LeighAn]

Ha Seriously I'm not trying to be mean but I think people are super naive if they don't think WestAllen will be put through the same pointless drama and ship stalling that Olicity.

This is the C freaking W! It's practically mandated from the network to stall couples for as long as possible. If you look at every television show on the CW not one core ship or promoted ship or popular ship stays happy forever with out some kind of stupid drama and you don't really get that happily ever after until the very end. There is not one ship! The network actually gave notes to the Gossip Girl writers to keep Chuck and Blair apart until the last season.

Marc gave an interview that strongly alluded to the fact that the Network pushed him to break up Oliver and Felicity when they realised that the show would go longer then 5 seasons.

Julie Plec and the Gossip Girl writers have brought up the moonlighting curse before.

The CW which is a generally teen young adult demographic that is heavily based around ships/shipping totally buys in to the moonlighting curse. It's not a writer thing it's a network thing.

I highly doubt WestAllen will be a special unicorn that will break the CW mould. Olicity is probably more popular and influential fandom and media promoted wise then CW WestAllen (I'm sorry it's true) and they still broke them up as put ship stall mode, WestAllen are probably doomed for a similar fate.

The best they can hope for is that the Flash writers have the finesse and respect to make the break up make up on/off phase of their relationship believable and respectful of the characters.

[bijoux]

14 minutes ago, Trini said:

I've seen at least one show break this rule; similar to Barry and Iris, it was made clear from the pilot that this main couple was the 'endgame' couple. I'm hoping Westallen breaks the trend. We'll see.

I don't think anyone is arguing that they're not endgame, it's just that the end part is key here, and chances are extremely likely that there will be break(s) before they reach that end.

[Trini]

25 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Ha Seriously I'm not trying to be mean but I think people are super naive if they don't think WestAllen will be put through the same pointless drama and ship stalling that Olicity.

They already did their stalling. Pointless drama? Sure; bring it on. [edit:] And WestAllen has never been Olicity, I don't think things will play out the same way.

21 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I don't think anyone is arguing that they're not endgame, it's just that the end part is key here, and chances are extremely likely that there will be break(s) before they reach that end.

I think where we disagree is how and when. I think it's unlikely, but definitely possible.

30 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Always curious. What show are you thinking of?

Chuck, but then I think Fringe might have kept Olivia and Peter together, too? (I didn't watch the last season.)

Edited December 23, 2016 by Trini

[LeighAn]

In fact I think the best WestAllen can hope for is if the writers follow the same level of angst the Smallville writers gave Lois and Clark where the angst was mild and based solely around Clarks hero identity or Lois job and not third party drama or secret kids. (Even then they played the Lana and Oliver cock blocking card in the lead up to Lois and Clark giving in to their feelings.)

For instance Lois breaking up with him and leaving for Africa because she feels she's getting in the way of him saving lives or some such nonsense. Or the whole Clark not being honest with her about who he is drama/stall.

Overall Lois and Clark were fairly fluffy and were able to get through relatively unscathed in CW terms however Clark and Lana were super levels of CW drama. 

But I could see the Flash writers trying to keep WeatAllen fluffy enough and just give the stupid break up stall reasons that aren't secret kids or dating other people. But theyll have some reasons to pine over each other and go through the longing thing. I would be truly shocked if they didn't 

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, Trini said:

Chuck, but then I think Fringe might have kept Olivia and Peter together, too? (I didn't watch the last season.)

I loved Chuck!  I think though, that Chuck was a unique situation.  They kept thinking they were writing their last season. (Often twice a season, lol)   They pretty much HAD to keep them together in order to give the fans an ending they deserved, but even they ended in a kind of weird way.  

[Trini]

On 12/23/2016 at 3:04 AM, BkWurm1 said:

but even they ended in a kind of weird way.  

[UGH. Still kinda pissed about what they did to Sarah at the end - don't get me started!]

Edited December 25, 2016 by Trini

[LeighAn]

2 minutes ago, Trini said:

 

Chuck, but then I think Fringe might have kept Olivia and Peter together, too? (I didn't watch the last season.)

I don't watch the fringe so I can't comment but Sarah and Chuck had oodles of drama leading up to them getting together and then broke up and dated other people before getting back together They then had drama once they were together and ended the show with Sarah not being able to remember Chuck. 

They also weren't a CW show and I honestly believe the network pushes more of the ship drama and ship stalling then any writing teams. Marc even heavily alluded to the fact that they had to break Olicity up because the network told them they had gotten them together too soon because the show was going to go longer then five seasons. 

I'm not doubting that WestAllen won't or can't get married but I'd be surprised if the network approved it happening before their 5th season and their syndication and that there won't be a break up on/off period beforehand.

In fact maybe Flash might luck out and get the 100th wedding the Olicity fandom were hoping for!

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, Trini said:

[UGH. Still kinda pissed about they did to Sarah at the end - don't get me started!]

I've decided  very firmly that kisses are magic and after they kissed on the beach, she got all her memories back.  No one can tell me differently.    

[CooperTV]

43 minutes ago, Trini said:

I've seen at least one show break this rule; similar to Barry and Iris, it was made clear from the pilot that this main couple was the 'endgame' couple.

The only CW couple it applies is Nikita/Michael from CW's Nikita. They got together in season 1 and stayed together without dating other people first or major breaking up/dating other people later throughout the show. Barry/Iris are not that couple and at this point never will be.

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, CooperTV said:

The only CW couple it applies is Nikita/Michael from CW's Nikita. They got together in season 1 and stayed together without dating other people first or major breaking up/dating other people later throughout the show. Barry/Iris are not that couple and at this point never will be.

Didn't they even survive Baby Mama Drama?  Sigh.  I've never seen it but Nikita was held out as hope that Olicity might be allowed to survive theirs.  NOPE!

[Trini]

16 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

I don't watch the fringe so I can't comment but Sarah and Chuck had oodles of drama leading up to them getting together and then broke up and dated other people before getting back together They then had drama once they were together and ended the show with Sarah not being able to remember Chuck.

My point with comparing Barry and Iris to Chuck and Sarah is that once they were actually officially together, (after going through 2.5 seasons of stalling) they stayed together. The only real breakup was when they (STUPIDLY) messed with her memories, but then they showed them getting back to being together soon after. I think Barry and Iris will stay together; they stalled for 2 seasons.

(Y'all are trying to get me to get me to go off on a Chuck rant.  :-P  It's late, y'all.)

Edited December 23, 2016 by Trini

[CooperTV]

2 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Didn't they even survive Baby Mama Drama?  Sigh.  I've never seen it but Nikita was held out as hope that Olicity might be allowed to survive theirs.

And Baby Mama Drama was ultimately not even about Nikita/Michael relationship but about Michael and his desire to connect with his son, given that he lost his family in such a terrible way. I think they had mild issues with Michael wanting to be closer to the son but Nikita was really supportive of that (plus she knew about the child first and had to tell him, I think?) and never doubt Michael's love for her. It was handled in very mature way.

[lemotomato]

10 minutes ago, CooperTV said:

The only CW couple it applies is Nikita/Michael from CW's Nikita. They got together in season 1 and stayed together without dating other people first or major breaking up/dating other people later throughout the show. Barry/Iris are not that couple and at this point never will be.

They did break up majorly, though. Nikita decides to go on the run at the end of season 3 and leaves her engagement ring behind, essentially dumping Michael. 

[bijoux]

12 minutes ago, CooperTV said:

And Baby Mama Drama was ultimately not even about Nikita/Michael relationship but about Michael and his desire to connect with his son, given that he lost his family in such a terrible way. I think they had mild issues with Michael wanting to be closer to the son but Nikita was really supportive of that (plus she knew about the child first and had to tell him, I think?) and never doubt Michael's love for her. It was handled in very mature way.

So basically more or less how Arrow should have handled it. Oliver has also lost most of his family and wanting to connect would certainly have made sense. But, nope.

[ruby24]

Maybe The Flash will have some more leniency from the network for being its highest rated show.

I have my suspicions though that the CW doesn't particularly love the fact that the show's main couple is an interracial one. I think that may be behind some of WestAllen being watered down in terms of sexual activity.

[CooperTV]

3 hours ago, lemotomato said:

They did break up majorly, though. Nikita decides to go on the run at the end of season 3 and leaves her engagement ring behind, essentially dumping Michael. 

Except Michael said that if she ever decided something without telling or consulting him first, it's over. Which was what she did at the end of season 3 to "protect" people she loved. That Nikita facing her major flaw, aka trying to decide for other people to protect them. She was convinced he would stick to his decision to break it off. But well... Not such luck, Nikita, I guess.

ETA: I just remembered a tv show where Baby Mama Drama was actually even worse than what happened in Arrow, if it's at all possible! This season NCIS New Orleans spent like, nine episodes on BMD for the main dude but the resolution of that was (after The MC decided to live with BM and the child, for reasons) that the child is not his because he didn't to paternity test and just felt it was his son. BMD was there to derail "endgame" romantic relationship between the MC and his on-screen partner.

Edited December 23, 2016 by CooperTV

[Velocity23]

4 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Maybe The Flash will have some more leniency from the network for being its highest rated show.

 

They will milk it even harder. TVD was the highest rated show on the network and that didn't stop them from breaking up their couple. It will happen because its what networks do. And its not even just a CW thing. Other networks love this also. 

[Mellowyellow]

Omg was TVD the highest rating show once? What season was this?

Oh all this talk of Chuck brings back memories. I didn't ship on Chuck because I just assumed they'd get together. I did however spend all my energy hating Morgan. Omg Morgan was the worse!

[Velocity23]

I would say 2013/2014? Before Flash came. Then it started dropping so fast. TVD was their number show from 2009 till 2013/2014 season. 

Also the Flash debuted to almost similar numbers as TVD.  And i wouldnt exclude a free fall similar to TVD once they reach season 5 or 6. 

Edited December 23, 2016 by Velocity23

[tv echo]

I think that The Flash could very well run for 10 seasons, given its current success on The CW, so I doubt very much that Barry & Iris will be happily together for the next 7 years.

Following up on previous comments... I agree that it's very understandable that, if you know a bad future awaits you, then you'll do everything you can to change that future.  Since the future hasn't happened yet, you arguably can do that. The past, on the other hand, has already happened - you can't change that, so it isn't even a question. However, if people did have the power to change their past (like Barry actually does), then it would also be understandable if everyone wanted to go back in time and change past bad decisions, save lost ones, etc. Yes, in Flashpoint, Barry saved his mother but hurt his friends' lives - yet he also vastly improved his parent's lives.  Didn't his mother also deserve to live a long and happy life?  Well, I suppose you can argue that she died and that's in the past and shouldn't be changed, but why not? If Barry had not told his friends and reversed what he did, then no one would've known that they ever had other lives. Barry's Flashpoint was detrimental to some lives but beneficial to other lives. Similarly, by (understandably) changing their predicted bad futures, won't Barry & friends' actions also have consequences? They could be improving their own futures, but hurting the futures of other people.

Past versus future? Some theorize that the past, present and future all exist simultaneously (the "block universe" theory). This would mean that the future has already happened in the same way that the past has already happened. Stephen King even wrote a novella, later turned into a miniseries called The Langoliers, that's kinda based on this theory. So there would be no difference between trying to change the past and trying to change the future.

Can the future be changed? There have been plenty of movies and tv shows positing that the future is fixed and that, no matter what you do, you end up at the same point. That is, there are fixed points in time. And sometimes it's what you do to try to change the future that leads to the very future that you were trying to prevent. (I can't think of specific examples right now, but I know I've seen them.) Of course, there are also plenty of movies and tv shows positing that the future can be changed (example: The Terminator). 

Should the future be changed? Then there are plenty of movies and tv shows positing that sometimes you shouldn't change the future because such change would lead to greater disaster.  I recently saw an old Doctor Who episode, "The Waters of Mars," in which the Doctor visits the first human colony on Mars in 2059, headed by Captain Adelaide Brooke. The Doctor knows that Adelaide is fated to die in the near future and that her death is pivotal because it will inspire her granddaughter to go into space, leading to further space exploration and meeting alien lifeforms.  But the Doctor becomes arrogant and decides to use his power to save her. Adelaide then questions his right to make such judgments and ends up committing suicide, thus ensuring that the original timeline is unchanged. And then there's the classic Star Trek episode, "City on the Edge of Forever," where Kirk is transported back to 1930's Earth and sees two possible futures, one in which Edith Keeler dies, and one in which she lives but her living delays U.S. entry into WWII, leading to a Nazi victory. He has to let her die in order to restore the original timeline. It would be interesting to see if The Flash sets up the tropey scenario where Barry has to choose between saving Iris and saving Central City (or the world). 

Bottom line, I guess the question is whether changing the future could have bad consequences as well as good consequences - just as changing the past had both good and bad consequences. However, a lot of this discussion is probably moot since we all know that Iris will not die (probably the least cliff-hangery of any cliff-hanger ever in the Arrowverse). The only question is, will The Flash then show any bad consequences to saving her life? Will there be a cost? And if so, who will pay it?

Edited December 23, 2016 by tv echo

[CooperTV]

2 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Should the future be changed? Then there are plenty of movies and tv shows positing that sometimes you shouldn't change the future because such change would lead to greater disaster.  I recently saw an old episode, "The Waters of Mars," in which the Doctor visits the first human colony on Mars in 2059, headed by Captain Adelaide Brooke.

Time-travel in Doctor Who is different from any other canon about time-travel because it's stated from the very beginning (at least in the NuWho of RTD's variety) that there's fixed  points in time you can't stop from happening. I think the Doctor had this issue already in The Fires of Pompeii, where the Pompeii catastrophe is caused by the hostile aliens but he's unable to prevent it from happening because it's such an influential historical event. The Waters of Mars is inverse of the same thing where the Doctor can't deal with his losses anymore and tries to revert what's essentially a fixed point in time, and again, is unable to do so due to timeline righting itself via Adelaide executing her freedom to choose her own future (that was also determined and static in time).

[Sakura12]

I have no doubt they'll have some manufactured drama break up Barry and Iris, that's just a television rule. Also the Flarrowverse writers are horrible at writing romance. It only works when they are not writing it. 

As for changing the future, most of the time they go with trying to change the future causes it to happen. Now I know Iris won't die because she's not a hated character. But I do think someone else will take her place, I'm going with Joe's girlfriend. 

While I do appreciate a WOC is not being stereotyped. Iris is in no way a step forward for WOC's. She's no more than a prop for all the men in her life, Barry, her dad and now Wally. I'd be shocked if we get more than an episode of Iris dealing with the storyline about her future death, all of that will be left up the men. We didn't get to see her deal with Eddie's death, she's never had a storyline that was just hers. While the Caitlin the white woman is also mainly a prop, she has gotten her own storylines. Her mother storyline was about her. Iris's mother storyline was about Wally and Joe. 

[apinknightmare]

I used to think that The Flash would CW Iris and Barry at some point, but now I don't know.

They never really tried to drag out any suspense over a will they/won't they, and they couldn't be bothered to do much buildup to it. Just a little bit of "destiny" talk, and then destiny it was. Since TPTB wouldn't (or couldn't) milk much drama out of them becoming a couple, I'm not sure what kind of drama they could milk out of them being apart. If the way the audience seemed to react to Cisco this season is any indication - while he was mad at good 'ol Bare for a perfectly legit reason - I would say Iris in a breakup doesn't stand a chance, especially if Barry gets all weepy over it. The only way it could work IMO is if Barry breaks it off with her because it's too dangerous or whatever (which wouldn't make a whole lot of sense given the way he's handling this first death threat, but these shows often don't make sense!), and then I think Iris would have to spend her time pining over him and trying to get him to come back to her. No thanks!

No matter how much of a dumpster fire of a human being Barry is, things mostly seem to go his way. I can't imagine why this wouldn't. He'll probably meet very little resistance to making Iris his inspirational speech giver for life, although I would be pleasantly surprised if he did. 

Edited December 23, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Mellowyellow]

27 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

I would say 2013/2014? Before Flash came. Then it started dropping so fast. TVD was their number show from 2009 till 2013/2014 season. 

Also the Flash debuted to almost similar numbers as TVD.  And i wouldnt exclude a free fall similar to TVD once they reach season 5 or 6. 

Is that when Elena left? I watched up until the nonsense with the mother and the hunter woman who trapped people into some stone. No idea about ratings though!

haha you guys have taught me sooooo much about TV!

[Velocity23]

I think Nina Dobrev left after at the end of s6. 

[tv echo]

Iris West's Hilarious Line in The CW DC Crossover Wasn't In The Script
Jay Jayson  12/22/2016
http://comicbook.com/dc/2016/12/23/iris-wests-hilarious-line-in-the-cw-dc-crossover-wasnt-in-the-sc/

Quote

"Barry, so Oliver Queen is the Green Arrow?" Iris asked. Her speedster boyfriend confirms Oliver's secret identity with a quick: "Yeah." Without missing a beat, she quips, "Oh my God, he just got so much hotter."

TV Line likes Iris's quote so much that they ranked it #73 on their 75 Best TV Quotes of 2016. After the article was posted on Thursday, Patton responded to the quote's inclusion on the list by revealing a nice little tidbit. "Much more behind this line," she tweeted. "This line wasn't in the original script." She added in the next tweet: "But let it be known, I can't take credit for it at all."

https://twitter.com/candicekp/status/812065489551814657 
https://twitter.com/candicekp/status/81206669504095436

Edited December 23, 2016 by tv echo

[bijoux]

Well, now I want to know who can take credit for it? Because it was hilarious. First, two years ago Iris found Oliver hot while she didn't notice Barry pining for her at all. Now Barry gets her and she still finds his grumpy older brother figure completely sizzling. :)

[tv echo]

Article also includes info on donating independently of the auction...

Arrow's Marc Guggenheim Offers Rare, Signed Invasion! Crossover Scriptbook To Benefit Bill Mantlo
Russ Burlingame- 12/23/2016
http://comicbook.com/2016/12/23/arrows-marc-guggenheim-offers-rare-invasion-crossover-scriptbook/

Quote

Arrow and DC's Legends of Tomorrow executive producer Marc Guggenheim is teaming with ComicBook.com to give fans an opportunity to snag a one-of-a-kind piece of memorabilia, with the money going to a worthy cause.

Over on eBay, we're selling a custom-bound and signed scriptbook, collecting scripts for the episodes of The Flash, Arrow, and DC's Legends of Tomorrow, each titled "Invasion!"  
*  *  *
The scriptbook was created at Guggenheim's request, and while we don't know the total print run of the books, the answer is "very small." And only one of them -- the one being auctioned off -- is signed by Guggenheim and six other Arrowverse producers/writers.

The signatures -- done in silver Sharpie on the cover -- include Guggenheim, Arrow EP Wendy Mericle, The Flash's Aaron and Todd Helbing, Legends of Tomorrow's Phil Klemmer, and Greg Berlanti and Andrew Kreisberg, who work with all of the shows.
*  *  *
100% of proceeds from the auction will go to benefit the family of Bill Mantlo, who was injured in a hit-and-run accident in 1992 and has been living in institutional care ever since. Since comic book professionals -- especially at the time Mantlo was at his peak -- earn little or nothing in the way of benefits, the brunt of the medical expenses falls on his family. His brother Michael has set up the Bill Mantlo Support Fund, to which all of the money raised by this sale and others like it will be donated.
*  *  *
Mantlo, best known for co-creating Rocket Raccoon, made headlines when Guardians of the Galaxy came out because his brother Michael and filmmaker James Gunn worked with Disney to bring an early copy of the film to the institution where Mantlo lives, so that he could see Rocket's big-screen debut early.

Ebay Auction: http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/282300611526?&afsrc=1&rmvSB=true

Edited December 23, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

[ohjoy]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

Iris West's Hilarious Line in The CW DC Crossover Wasn't In The Script
Jay Jayson  12/22/2016
http://comicbook.com/dc/2016/12/23/iris-wests-hilarious-line-in-the-cw-dc-crossover-wasnt-in-the-sc/

https://twitter.com/candicekp/status/812065489551814657 
https://twitter.com/candicekp/status/81206669504095436

 

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

Well, now I want to know who can take credit for it? Because it was hilarious. First, two years ago Iris found Oliver hot while she didn't notice Barry pining for her at all. Now Barry gets her and she still finds his grumpy older brother figure completely sizzling. :)

Yes, THANK YOU to whoever decided to add that -- and also to CP and GG for Iris' delivery and Barry's reaction. That little moment is quite possibly my favorite moment of the entire crossover.

[GHScorpiosRule]

There is no such thing as the "Moonlighting Curse."

@BkWurm1 I'm surprised at you! You know better! There were at least two other shows airing around the same time that didn't get cancelled or worse when the two leads got together: Scarecrow & Mrs. King, Remington Steele. The reason for Moonlighting's issues were related to Shepard and Willis' behind the scenes shenanigans and their dislike for each other, and less so with Maddie and David finally getting to the Will they finally? Then there's also Shawn and Jules on Psych.

Let's just attribute to this need for these CW shows and their runners/writers for angst and inability to write romance as well as inability to translate it to the screen.

In my opinion.

[statsgirl]

IMO, The Moonlighting Curse is the belief on the part of showrunners and studios that putting the couple together is a show killer and so they break them apart for ridiculous reasons the audience has no sympathy for, effectively killing the show themselves (see: Castle season 8.  Or Arrow season 4B).

4 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

 If the way the audience seemed to react to Cisco this season is any indication - while he was mad at good 'ol Bare for a perfectly legit reason - I would say Iris in a breakup doesn't stand a chance, especially if Barry gets all weepy over it. The only way it could work IMO is if Barry breaks it off with her because it's too dangerous or whatever (which wouldn't make a whole lot of sense given the way he's handling this first death threat, but these shows often don't make sense!), and then I think Iris would have to spend her time pining over him and trying to get him to come back to her. No thanks!

They already did a version of that in season 1 when every male character knew about Barry being The Flash but Iris didn't. And season 2 when Barry repeatedly lied to Patty about being The Flash even though she was Joe's partner and knew about metahumans (proving to me that even Patty was too mature for Barry).

Barry and Iris may be comic canon but the show itself appeals more to 12 year old boys, including the 12 year old boy in AJK, so having Barry in a happily married situation isn't going to be a priority.

Barry's superpower isn't his speed, it's the fact that he cries and says he regrets it and all is forgiven.

[calliope1975]

5 hours ago, tv echo said:

It would be interesting to see if The Flash sets up the tropey scenario where Barry has to choose between saving Iris and saving Central City (or the world). 

I would like to see a Buffy type situation when she had to kill Angel for the greater good even after he got his soul back. Angel came back to the show so you don't have to get rid of the character, but it sets up a potentially interesting story line. What does it really mean to be a hero? Are the heroes loved ones more important than the rest of humanity? So far, for Barry, it seems so. I don't necessarily blame him for that, but ideally, on a really well written show, it could be an interesting exploration. 

I'm already expecting it but count me down for forever bitterness if WestAllen gets the 100th episode wedding and all I got was lame-o aliens and my least liked character back from the dead (even if only in hallucination form.) Bitter, party of one. 

[way2interested]

36 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

There is no such thing as the "Moonlighting Curse."

@BkWurm1 I'm surprised at you! You know better! There were at least two other shows airing around the same time that didn't get cancelled or worse when the two leads got together: Scarecrow & Mrs. King, Remington Steele. The reason for Moonlighting's issues were related to Shepard and Willis' behind the scenes shenanigans and their dislike for each other, and less so with Maddie and David finally getting to the Will they finally? Then there's also Shawn and Jules on Psych.

Let's just attribute to this need for these CW shows and their runners/writers for angst and inability to write romance as well as inability to translate it to the screen.

In my opinion.

The Moonlighting Curse comes from the common misconception that Moonlighting declined because the couple got together and thus erased the tension. Many showrunners/critics, and not just for CW, use it as a cop-out for not getting their own couples together where other showrunners/critics actually denounce the curse and, rightly, blame the lack of ability to write a couple in an interesting way after getting them together or actually call out what really went on in Moonlighting. I'm thinking she was referring to the idea that the Moonlighting Curse became a common phrase and excuse for writing couples a certain way (breaking them up/stirring up drama to refrain the couple from staying in a stable relationship for too long because it might cause the characters/story to decline) (Side note: not really sure what you mean by Psych, since the couple dated in real life through the show yet the fictional couple still also went through the break-up/make-up scenario that people were expressing might happen in Flash).

Bringing this back to the shows though, it might be a more network, thing than a writer thing (idea that the network might have told Arrow to split Olicity because they were going past s5), or it might be a writer thing more than a network thing (writers are the ones who come up with the actual drama/romantic moments/ideas like moving in, how they break up, the "I love you"s, etc.). I don't think we can know for sure, but we can call out things like reasoning (attributing the Moonlighting Curse, what kind of drama they decide to write, how they try to explain it). However, on the other side of the argument, despite the problems with writing organic drama between these couples, I like how these shows write romance moments between its couples a bunch of times. I just don't like how they write stalls/break-ups because, ironically, they are trying to stop something subjectively nice from becoming stale by staling it themselves for a new concept just to try to hit "refresh" later.

I do have a little hope since GB did once mention the idea of toying with writing a married superhero and how that would be a new concept to explore, but I would guess that they would wait until they explored everything else first. Long rant short though, I don't think these shows have a complete inability to write romance (more of an inability to write drama), and I think this "need for angst" comes from a fear of staleness from a moneymaker relationship that comes from a fear of a famous misconception. Either the network, writers, or both have this fear, and it's stupid, but it happens, and I continuously prepare myself for similar drama to happen on every show I watch (and way more often than not, it happens).

Edited December 23, 2016 by way2interested

[lemotomato]

20 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I'm already expecting it but count me down for forever bitterness if WestAllen gets the 100th episode wedding and all I got was lame-o aliens and my least liked character back from the dead (even if only in hallucination form.) Bitter, party of one. 

Party of two! (And probably more)

At this point, though, The Flash and Barry have always gotten all the good things that Arrow should've gotten, but didn't, so I'm already forever bitter.

Edited December 23, 2016 by lemotomato

[Cleanqueen]

Does Iris truly love Barry, it's all about destiny. I shipped her and Barry in season 1 but they threw that out the window in season 2. Iris seriously deserves a real man. I didn't really like her and Eddie together but I was rewatching old scenes and honestly the way Eddie treated her and the love she had for him is ten times better than what they're writing for her and Barry. Also they showed some sexy time between her and Eddie so I dont believe them when they say they can't show it.

They'll 100% find a way to keep them apart, trust me. 

[insomniadreams88]

17 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I'm already expecting it but count me down for forever bitterness if WestAllen gets the 100th episode wedding and all I got was lame-o aliens and my least liked character back from the dead (even if only in hallucination form.) Bitter, party of one. 

Oh, me too. 

But then again, a WestAllen 100th episode wedding might depend on what else is going on at the time/whatever story they come up with for the crossover/who's around on which shows/which shows are still on air. I could see them maybe stalling an engagement/wedding to reach the 100th for WestAllen, but then decide to stall it even more if they think they have the "best idea ever!" for that year's crossover. (Then again, if they want to have everyone (or anyone not from The Flash, really) present for the wedding, they're going to have to do it at crossover time since no one talks to each other if it's not crossover time. Seriously, the problems that could be solved so fast if there were just a couple of phone calls between characters across the shows.)

[kismet]

If WestAllen stays together forever and ever happy on the show moving forward from this moment on, I will be SHOCKED. It is almost unheard of in TV dramas, especially those geared to 18-24 crowd and it will be almost unprecedented for show nevermind a CW show. I can't think of one CW or WB drama that had a couple remain drama for a whole season, nevermind multiple seasons. And all of them have had at least one break-up. Whether it be the mission, a surprise kid, secret illness, time travel, etc there is always someway TV mandates a forced separation of a beloved couple. I do not doubt that WestAllen is endgame. I believe it with every fiber of my being, I just also believe that this is a TV show and it's on the CW which means WestAllen is for sure going to break up at least a few more times and is going to face illogical & unnecessary melodrama. It's just the sad reality of modern TV. It's only a matter of time. And the Flash loves to play with time.

@statsgirl love the expression "Don't give a Fig", gonna borrow it. Very seasonal & cheeky.

Also, thanks everyone for mentioning Nikita & Chuck. Two amazing shows that I absolutely loved to pieces!! Fond memories of those shows - RIP :(. Seriously, they were quality shows that were not given their due. And as for the Romantic Couples on those shows, I watched both shows multiple times and trust me those couples were broken up and stalled for silly TV purposes as well. I think Chuck was constantly on the brink of cancellation which is why they got to FFwd & canonize some aspects of Chuck/Sara relationship - but every season when they returned they found some way to undo a little of the progress & force apart the couple. And as for Nikita, the abbreviated run the show got definitely helped accelerate the Nikita/Michael relationship. I also think being able to narratively keep them in physically different locations for the majority of the series also helped to stall them enough that the writers were not forced to use other traditional TV stall tropes. Although they still managed to get dead lovers, secret children & the "mission" to keep them apart multiple times.

If you want your TV couple, your endgame or your ship to have a happily ever after ~ simply hope for it to be the final season or for your couple to get demoted to secondary supporting characters with little to no screentime. There is no happy and stable relationships allowed in TV dramas especially those that air on a younger driven network like the CW. Personally. I think having O/F and WestAllen in happy & stable relationships would make for excellent TV, providing a wealth of stories that would compliment their action adventures and hero's journeys -sadly, it goes against the major TV tenet of DRAMA. One can hope they don't screw it up as badly as the Arrow writers, but nothing has indicated that the Flash writers are better writers - so best of luck to those that are emotionally invested in the health & happiness of WestAllen. I don't even predict turbulence ahead, I know there will be a break-up and melodramatic nonsense thrown at WestAllen - irregardless of comic canon or quality storytelling.

Edited December 23, 2016 by kismet

[Trini]

I know Barry and Iris are not going to be drama-free. I expect a separation at some point. But a break-up? I doubt it.

[apinknightmare]

What's the difference between a separation and a break-up between non-married people?

[kismet]

A break up and a separation are the same thing. But if it helps to think they are only on a break, then by all means do what is necessary to get through the inevitable. 

[Chaser]

"on a break".....shudder

Technically, I think they are the same thing. But I think if no other love interests are introduced during the break, I would probably just call it a separation. Exploring other options? Break up.

[insomniadreams88]

Maybe Barry will move out and back in with Joe for a bit? But if some sort of break-up/separation happens, please don't let them use the words "on a break." 

Edited December 23, 2016 by insomniadreams88

[ruby24]

What if it's a separation caused by something else entirely? Like Iris gets tossed into another timeline or the future (like her comics character). Candice Patton can still be on the show by having one of her doppelgangers show up and then Barry and Iris-2 (or whatever number she is) have a new dynamic or something for a while.

But while something like that's going on, Barry and Iris aren't actually broken up but they are separated because Iris is missing. That's how I would do it if I were them.

Possible?

1 hour ago, way2interested said:

 

I do have a little hope since GB did once mention the idea of toying with writing a married superhero and how that would be a new concept to explore, but I would guess that they would wait until they explored everything else first. Long rant short though, I don't think these shows have a complete inability to write romance (more of an inability to write drama), and I think this "need for angst" comes from a fear of staleness from a moneymaker relationship that comes from a fear of a famous misconception. Either the network, writers, or both have this fear, and it's stupid, but it happens, and I continuously prepare myself for similar drama to happen on every show I watch (and way more often than not, it happens).

 

The only character they can even do this with is The Flash, and that's because it's canon for him, so that gives me hope as well.

[Morrigan2575]

7 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Omg was TVD the highest rating show once? What season was this?

TVD was CWs flagship AND highest rated show until Flash debuted. Arrow couldn't even top in, in it's first season. TVD did not drop below 1.0 in the demo until after it's 100th episode in the Winter/Spring of Season 5. After that, it sprung a leak and never recovered.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[kismet]

I hesitate to take anything GB says about his direction or ideas for his shows with a grain of salt. Because right now beyond the crossovers and legal aspects of his TV universe I think the only thing he consistently does regarding Arrow or Flash is cash the checks they produce. He is too focused on his new babies or expanding his brand. And GB has always given better sound bytes that give his audience hope, while not forcing his writing teams to actual produce quality.