S11.E10: The Confidence Erosion

[Winston Wolfe]

10 hours ago, ForReal said:

So that lessens my sympathy for him quite a bit, although it doesn't hurt for him to push back against Howard, because the way Howard uses him for a punching bag is getting a little old.

Of all the leads, Howard should be the most sensitive to Raj's feelings.  Sheldon used Howard as a punching bag for much of the first eight or nine seasons until Bernadette and Penny, of all people, intervened.  When Howard, Raj, and Leonard signed an agreement for the guidance system and Penny/Bernadette basically made Sheldon agree to a non-aggression clause that would make Sheldon stop belittling Howard.

Also, the "Leonard is so lucky to have Penny" trope needs to be retired too.  Looking at it objectively, what's so super-great about Penny?  She's a cute Blonde with a decent-enough figure, not the second coming of Marilyn Monroe (no offense to the actress).  Geek or not, Leonard is decent-enough looking that he probably could have found comparable alternatives to Penny if he tried hard enough.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Winston Wolfe
Name correction

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

43 minutes ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Also, the "Leonard is so lucky to have Penny" trope needs to be retired too.  Looking at it objectively, what's so super-great about Penny?  She's a cute Blonde with a decent-enough figure, not the second coming of Marilyn Monroe (no offense to the actress).  Geek or not, Leonard is decent-enough looking that he probably could have found comparable alternatives to Penny if he tried hard enough.

He did! Joyce Kim, Leslie Winkle, Dr. Stephanie, Priya Koothrapali, the cute comic artist he met at the store, Sheldon’s assistant Alex. Even if we discount Joyce because she was a spy with ulterior motives, and Leslie for not being “hot” (though quite cute in her own way, and the acknowledged hottie of the physics department), we still have four gorgeous, accomplished women that Leonard managed to pique the interest of to varying degrees. 

[CherryAmes]

1 hour ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Looking at it objectively, what's so super-great about Penny?  She's a cute Blonde with a decent-enough figure, not the second coming of Marilyn Monroe (no offense to the actress). 

But we can't look at it objectively.  The way the show has been written from the very first episode onward is that Penny is hot and no one can understand why she is happy to be with Leonard - it gets commented on by almost any outsider who shows up in an episode.  Doesn't matter whether we think Kaley Couco is hot, the point on the show is that Penny is hotter than hot and Leonard's a lucky man.    What I hate about this is that I feel they've demonstrated more than once that Penny offer Leonard a lot more than a pretty girlfriend/wife - but to any outsider who comes into an episode it always comes down to "how did that guy get her?"

[rmontro]

14 hours ago, roamyn said:

And remember the episode where drinks in Penny’s apt, and treats her like a menial, disparaging her apt and demanding she get him more beer?  

Yeah, Raj is not as nice as he seems.

I'm not sure I would characterize any of the characters as "nice".

[anna0852]

While all of them are have had their moments, I would put Leonard, Amy and Stewart more towards the nice column. 

[Gothish520]

6 hours ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Of all the leads, Howard should be the most sensitive to Raj's feelings.  Sheldon used Howard as a punching bag for much of the first eight or nine seasons until Bernadette and Penny, of all people, intervened.

 

It was revealed in one episode that Howard fired the first several shots when they first met, thus setting the tone for their relationship. 

[Winston Wolfe]

4 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

It was revealed in one episode that Howard fired the first several shots when they first met, thus setting the tone for their relationship. 

That was kind of my point, actually.  You would think that Howard would best understand how these things can kind of unravel and turn into something toxic.  And its not like he had the most self-confidence in the world either until he became an Astronaut.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Winston Wolfe
Clarification of thoughts

[Snarklepuss]

It's probably me but I don't remember Howard being quite as bad to Raj before this episode as they were making it out to be.  Yeah, he engaged in a little ragging on him every now and then but they all did that to each other and it was nothing on the order of the way Sheldon treats everyone, including Howard.  I'm remembering how long Sheldon went on and on about Howard not being a PhD and not engaging in "real science".  So maybe it just didn't seem so bad to me compared to all the insults they all suffered from Sheldon.  And yes to it not being Howard's fault that Raj lacks confidence.  If I can't even feel like his put downs were that much of a "thing" then how bad could the effect be?  Plus we know that Raj was like this all along anyway.  Not to justify Howard's behavior, but most guys with any confidence would take that stuff much differently.   I do think the show is attempting to make Raj evolve this season - belatedly, as pretty much all of them have made some personal progress.  It's at least a step in the right direction for him.

And yay to Amy's wedding dress.  I thought they would get married at city hall and have a later reception sort of like Leonard and Penny got married first in Vegas, then again in a regular ceremony.  But whatever, it was very romantic of Sheldon to insist on a full wedding.  I expected that they would have a lot of thematic fantasy/sci fi elements in their wedding as it fits them.  I don't think they need to go so crazy with all of that, though, because it would cost a fortune and take forever to accomplish (not to mention be a hot mess of overkill).  They need someone to reel them back into reality with that stuff.  I agree with the poster above that Raj would have made a good choice to plan their wedding, but it looks like the show might want to go in another direction with him.

[rmontro]

10 hours ago, anna0852 said:

While all of them are have had their moments, I would put Leonard, Amy and Stewart more towards the nice column. 

You're probably right, although I've always considered Leonard as bad as the rest of them.  Before he was married, he would have kicked any of his friends under the bus if there was a chance he could have gotten laid.  He cheated on Penny by kissing a girl while he was on the Hawking boat expedition.  He also stole back the "one ring" after he had quit the contest.  He often treats Sheldon badly, although Sheldon has it coming.

Amy is extremely self centered, her main focus in Bernadette's wedding was wearing a dress and being a maid of honor.  She readily started trash talking Bernadette and Penny behind their backs when she thought it would gain her some popularity.  Stewart freeloads off of Howard and Bernadette, but I'd probably consider him the nicest of the bunch.  That's probably only because his character is the least fleshed out though.

[chitowngirl]

Raj said the Planetarium was looking for an astrophysicist for consulting. So not a permanent job.

Can Raj just take another job like that? Do work Visas work that way? I thought they were for a specific job and place of employment.

Edited December 10, 2017 by chitowngirl

[Gothish520]

51 minutes ago, rmontro said:

You're probably right, although I've always considered Leonard as bad as the rest of them.  Before he was married, he would have kicked any of his friends under the bus if there was a chance he could have gotten laid.  He cheated on Penny by kissing a girl while he was on the Hawking boat expedition.  He also stole back the "one ring" after he had quit the contest.  He often treats Sheldon badly, although Sheldon has it coming.

Oh yeah, Leonard demonstrated time and again that he'd make out (if not sleep) with anyone who'd have him, regardless of relationship status (his or theirs). 

[Winston Wolfe]

14 hours ago, rmontro said:

I'm not sure I would characterize any of the characters as "nice"

There's a saying I recently heard for the first time, "hurt people hurt [other] people."  From their own backstories, Leonard, Howard, Sheldon, Amy, Raj, and Bernadette (probably to a lesser degree) were all tormented by others in their formative years.  The behavior we see is likely them "paying the pain forward" when dealing with each other.  For the most part, it's just mean-spirited and not harmful for the audience's entertainment.

[displayname]

1 hour ago, Winston Wolfe said:

There's a saying I recently heard for the first time, "hurt people hurt [other] people."  From their own backstories, Leonard, Howard, Sheldon, Amy, Raj, and Bernadette (probably to a lesser degree) were all tormented by others in their formative years.  The behavior we see is likely them "paying the pain forward" when dealing with each other.  For the most part, it's just mean-spirited and not harmful for the audience's entertainment.

Penny?

 

(knock knock knock)

Edited December 10, 2017 by fan94

[roamyn]

2 hours ago, Winston Wolfe said:

There's a saying I recently heard for the first time, "hurt people hurt [other] people."  From their own backstories, Leonard, Howard, Sheldon, Amy, Raj, and Bernadette (probably to a lesser degree) were all tormented by others in their formative years.  The behavior we see is likely them "paying the pain forward" when dealing with each other.  For the most part, it's just mean-spirited and not harmful for the audience's entertainment.

I wouldn't classify Bernadette in their.  She was only "tormented" by having to watch her younger siblings (her backstory) . She appears to be her father's favorite, too.

[SpiritSong]

22 hours ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

He did! Joyce Kim, Leslie Winkle, Dr. Stephanie, Priya Koothrapali, the cute comic artist he met at the store, Sheldon’s assistant Alex. Even if we discount Joyce because she was a spy with ulterior motives, and Leslie for not being “hot” (though quite cute in her own way, and the acknowledged hottie of the physics department), we still have four gorgeous, accomplished women that Leonard managed to pique the interest of to varying degrees. 

And let's not forget the older woman donor who was very interested in sleeping with Leonard.

[Sarah 103]

On December 8, 2017 at 2:31 PM, hnygrl said:

I kept wondering why they didn't just hire RAJ to plan their wedding? He'd really do it up proper.

Raj would probably find a way to create something that both of them would like. I could picture Raj presenting options to Sheldon and Amy separately, and then whichever one they both picked would be the winner. 

The first scene of Sheldon and Amy planning the wedding was fantastic. It was exactly the kind of moment I was hoping for when Sheldon and Amy decided to get married. Also, I really loved his speech about dark matter and hopes part it makes its way into his vows. 

[snuffles]

I thought the mathematical approach to the wedding planning was actually innovative. The initial wedding plans were hilarious and I would have loved to go to that wedding.

I was so glad Sheldon paused because he wanted to have an actual wedding and not because Amy wasn't going to change her last name.

[Sarah 103]

7 minutes ago, snuffles said:

I thought the mathematical approach to the wedding planning was actually innovative. The initial wedding plans were hilarious and I would have loved to go to that wedding.

Me too. I can't wait to see what the wedding ends up actually being like. I'm hoping we get more scenes of them planning it and hearing about the different ideas as the season progresses. 

[CherryAmes]

I liked the whole episode, and loved Amy's pink dress, but my favourite moment came at the end when Penny muttered "decaf, genius" as she walked past Raj.  I always like these little reminders that however smart the scientists on this show are they don't always have much common sense!

[displayname]

21 minutes ago, CherryAmes said:

I liked the whole episode, and loved Amy's pink dress, but my favourite moment came at the end when Penny muttered "decaf, genius" as she walked past Raj.  I always like these little reminders that however smart the scientists on this show are they don't always have much common sense!

In a lot of ways, Penny's smarter. Thought that since ep 1.

Edited December 11, 2017 by fan94

[FinnishViewer]

Quote

I'm not sure I would characterize any of the characters as "nice"

While they have had their mean moments, They usually are there to support and help each other more than often enough, which in my book makes them much nicer than compared to, for example, the characters on Seinfeld.

[proserpina65]

20 hours ago, fan94 said:

Penny?

 

(knock knock knock)

Penny was that popular girl who bullied others, as pointed out in the episode where Leonard confronted one of his former tormentors.  And she still kinda is.

[peacheslatour]

After seeing the promo for this week's episode I think Raj and Howard should just get a room already.

[hoodooznoodooz]

On 12/10/2017 at 8:23 PM, Sarah 103 said:

Raj would probably find a way to create something that both of them would like. I could picture Raj presenting options to Sheldon and Amy separately, and then whichever one they both picked would be the winner. 

The first scene of Sheldon and Amy planning the wedding was fantastic. It was exactly the kind of moment I was hoping for when Sheldon and Amy decided to get married. Also, I really loved his speech about dark matter and hopes part it makes its way into his vows. 

Thank you for reminding me. I loved the dark matter speech. 

[shapeshifter]

10 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Penny was that popular girl who bullied others, as pointed out in the episode where Leonard confronted one of his former tormentors.  And she still kinda is.

Yes, but I think we can assume she was a bully because of her own childhood traumas. There's the episode where she cries to Beverly about her dad treating her like a boy because he wished she was a boy. I don't need or want to know about any other bad experiences that would have lead to Penny being a high school mean girl to believe there were reasons.

[CherryAmes]

I've never bought for a minute that Penny was a bully in high school.  Going along with the popular kids, yes, for sure, and regrettable to a degree I'm sure but that's a far cry from actively bullying other kids.  To me that was one episode that had a few lines to get some laughs that had nothing to do with Penny's real past.

[LaChavalina]

I've always been more pro-Raj than a lot of folks around here, but I have to say that I liked the general storyline of "Raj has to branch out to gain confidence," though I disagree with it being focused purely on Howard. They've established over various seasons that Raj gets busted on by people in his life, but that includes his parents, his sisters, and really all of his friends in the group. I can also say, having been the only single person in a group of friends who are married and/or have kids, it is pretty crushing. Even if your friends aren't trying to tear you down, there's a distinct sense of friends making you feel like all your lonely/single problems are totally unimportant. (How I Met Your Mother covered this pretty well.)

It would be more realistic if he decided to take a break from all of them, but then how could they really keep him in the show?

[MissLucas]

10 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

I've never bought for a minute that Penny was a bully in high school.  Going along with the popular kids, yes, for sure, and regrettable to a degree I'm sure but that's a far cry from actively bullying other kids.  To me that was one episode that had a few lines to get some laughs that had nothing to do with Penny's real past.

Well she was part of dumping a girl tied and blindfolded in a cornfield over night - that counts as bullying to me. But then I'm not buying the whole 'I was just running along with the others'-defense. That's what makes bullying possible in the first place.

[Katy M]

14 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

I've never bought for a minute that Penny was a bully in high school.  Going along with the popular kids, yes, for sure, and regrettable to a degree I'm sure but that's a far cry from actively bullying other kids. 

No. that's not a far cry from being a bully.  You very rarely see a single bully.  they are packs.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Katy M
Removed bullying word of "um"

[CherryAmes]

17 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Um, no that's not a far cry from being a bully.  You very rarely see a single bully.  they are packs.

Starting a comment with "um no" is a bit of a bullying tactic on message boards.  But we'll move on from that.   I don't disagree that Penny may possibly have done some things in high school that she shouldn't have - that does not mean for one minute that she actively and deliberately bullied other kids, and aside from this one single episode there is not one time that I can recall when we are led to believe Penny was a "mean girl".  

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

Starting a comment with "um no" is a bit of a bullying tactic on message boards.

Really?  So, if I take the um out are we good?

And as @misslucas points out, dumping a girl blindfolded into a cornfield for overnight is definitely active and deliberate and it goes from bullying straight into assault.  I can't believe someone would put more of an emphasis on "um, no" then on straight up assault.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Katy M

[displayname]

Also, didn't Bernadette and Amy make Penny realise that she was a (perhaps unintentional) bully? Penny even called up people from her high school to apologise.

Edited December 13, 2017 by fan94

[John Potts]

On ‎08‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 3:28 AM, chocolatine said:

My unpopular opinion is that I wish Sheldon and Amy had gotten married at city hall. Amy looked beautiful in her suit, and I would have liked to see one couple on TV not get consumed by the wedding-industrial complex.

 

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 1:34 AM, snuffles said:

I was so glad Sheldon paused because he wanted to have an actual wedding and not because Amy wasn't going to change her last name.

I was SO hoping they'd go through with the wedding, because the (only?) reason two people should get married is "because they love each other". Too often TV seems to suggest that the real reason to get married is to spend as much money as possible on a massive party.

On ‎08‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 0:32 PM, chitowngirl said:

if you were going to have a girls night that is just hanging out at someone's house, wouldn't you go to the house of the person who is on bed rest?

Pregnant Bernadette was drinking fizzy water (I think?) in a restaurant in a previous episode and said she loved freaking out other diners. She could drink apple juice (or whatever) while they drink wine (real world issues aside).

On ‎08‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 11:17 PM, Kanner said:

I am a Sheldon  fan but it really annoys me when the others just roll over for him. While Sheldon is responsible for his actions they helped to create a monster.

Absolutely agree.

On ‎09‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 5:23 AM, shapeshifter said:

How about Little House On the Prairie style clothing and modes of transportation with light sabers and Klingon language vows?

The perfect compromise (OK, not really)!

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 3:09 AM, CherryAmes said:

my favourite moment came at the end when Penny muttered "decaf, genius" as she walked past Raj.

Sometimes (particularly when it comes to dating) Penny shows she really is the wisest of them all.

[BlossomCulp]

On 12/13/2017 at 7:46 AM, CherryAmes said:

 I don't disagree that Penny may possibly have done some things in high school that she shouldn't have - that does not mean for one minute that she actively and deliberately bullied other kids, and aside from this one single episode there is not one time that I can recall when we are led to believe Penny was a "mean girl".  

I've always thought that of all the characters Penny is the one they played fastest and loosest with in terms of her back story and her character from episode to episode.  Some of it I can accept in that I can appreciate the writers not wanting to be tied forever to a throwaway line or two from an episode from the first year.  But when they have Penny going from being a perfectly capable young woman who could make Penny Blossoms one season and in a later season not even be able to use glue I get a little fed up!  They do the same thing with this "Penny is a bully" nonsense.  One episode they decide it would be funny to have Penny participate in some pretty hateful things in high school - and be so stupid she doesn't even realize that what she did was hateful -  but like you I can't remember any other time when we see this aspect of Penny's character.  When she has, as one example, that girl from Omaha come stay with her she is nice to her even though the "slut from Omaha" is taking advantage of her.  For that matter she has been nothing but nice to Amy from the minute Amy became involved with Sheldon even to the point where she kept that ugly picture of the two of them hanging up in her apartment. 

I mean come on writers - this is not the way bullies behave!

[AnnaRose]

3 hours ago, BlossomCulp said:

I've always thought that of all the characters Penny is the one they played fastest and loosest with in terms of her back story and her character from episode to episode.  Some of it I can accept in that I can appreciate the writers not wanting to be tied forever to a throwaway line or two from an episode from the first year.  But when they have Penny going from being a perfectly capable young woman who could make Penny Blossoms one season and in a later season not even be able to use glue I get a little fed up!  They do the same thing with this "Penny is a bully" nonsense.  One episode they decide it would be funny to have Penny participate in some pretty hateful things in high school - and be so stupid she doesn't even realize that what she did was hateful -  but like you I can't remember any other time when we see this aspect of Penny's character.  When she has, as one example, that girl from Omaha come stay with her she is nice to her even though the "slut from Omaha" is taking advantage of her.  For that matter she has been nothing but nice to Amy from the minute Amy became involved with Sheldon even to the point where she kept that ugly picture of the two of them hanging up in her apartment. 

I mean come on writers - this is not the way bullies behave!

Yeah, that one bully episode is so inconsistent with the overall characterization of Penny, I just ignore it and assume it was just one of those times when the writers were determined to go for the jokes even if they didn't fit what we knew about the character.

[BlossomCulp]

22 hours ago, AnnaRose said:

Yeah, that one bully episode is so inconsistent with the overall characterization of Penny, I just ignore it and assume it was just one of those times when the writers were determined to go for the jokes even if they didn't fit what we knew about the character.

Is this a sitcom thing or do dramas do it too?  Because I can think of so many examples from sitcom land where something happens in one episode that is fairly significant and yet is never mentioned again - in Everybody Loves Raymond in one single episode Robert is so poor his fridge is almost empty and he's reduced to eating balony pie; in Two and Half Men Charlie rents an apartment in one episode and in the very next episode when he has a fight with his girlfriend he ends up in a hotel.  So what happened to the apartment?  It's stuff like this that led me to TWOP back in the day and led me here when TWOP ended :).

Edited December 16, 2017 by BlossomCulp

[AnnaRose]

1 hour ago, BlossomCulp said:

Is this a sitcom thing or do dramas do it too?  Because I can think of so many examples from sitcom land where something happens in one episode that is fairly significant and is never mentioned again - in Everybody Loves Raymond in one single episode Robert is so poor his fridge is almost empty and he's reduced to eating balony pie; in Two and Half Men Charlie rents an apartment in one episode and in the very next episode when he has a fight with his girlfriend he ends up in a hotel.  So what happened to the apartment?  It's stuff like this that led me to TWOP back in the day and led me here when TWOP ended :).

Yes, I think so.  Comedy is hard, and sitcom writers are probably more likely to go for the jokes at the expense of consistency, compared to drama generally speaking.  It was easier to get away with it before the days of binge watching series and internet forums made flaws and errors more obvious to all but the most casual viewers. 

Another factor is that there are usually different writers for each episode, and they're not necessarily familiar with everything that happened previously.  I think sitcom episodes tend to be a little more stand-alone compared to dramas, so writers probably are even less worried about continuity issues. 

[Tosia]

On 12/9/2017 at 8:44 PM, CherryAmes said:

But we can't look at it objectively.  The way the show has been written from the very first episode onward is that Penny is hot and no one can understand why she is happy to be with Leonard - it gets commented on by almost any outsider who shows up in an episode.  Doesn't matter whether we think Kaley Couco is hot, the point on the show is that Penny is hotter than hot and Leonard's a lucky man.    What I hate about this is that I feel they've demonstrated more than once that Penny offer Leonard a lot more than a pretty girlfriend/wife - but to any outsider who comes into an episode it always comes down to "how did that guy get her?"

The heart wants what the heart wants.  

[Tosia]

On 12/12/2017 at 5:01 PM, CherryAmes said:

I've never bought for a minute that Penny was a bully in high school.  Going along with the popular kids, yes, for sure, and regrettable to a degree I'm sure but that's a far cry from actively bullying other kids.  To me that was one episode that had a few lines to get some laughs that had nothing to do with Penny's real past.

I thought Penny  was more of a party girl in high school and after than a bully.

Remember how sweet and flustered she was at the beginning of the series with all their science talk?  

Then Penny joined in with the sniping they all did. 

I do wish that she and Leonard would be happier together.

[TurtlePower]

5 hours ago, Tosia said:

I thought Penny  was more of a party girl in high school and after than a bully.

Remember how sweet and flustered she was at the beginning of the series with all their science talk?  

Then Penny joined in with the sniping they all did. 

I do wish that she and Leonard would be happier together.

I wonder if Penny regrets giving up acting for her more stable, high-paying job. That could create some resentment as Leonard made fun of her for pursuing it, so she gives it up in favor of something more conventional. But I don't think she really enjoys it, it's just a job. Meanwhile, Leonard still has the job he worked for and enjoys. He achieved his dreams and she gave hers up. 

[rmontro]

On 12/9/2017 at 8:46 PM, Winston Wolfe said:

Also, the "Leonard is so lucky to have Penny" trope needs to be retired too.  Looking at it objectively, what's so super-great about Penny?  She's a cute Blonde with a decent-enough figure, not the second coming of Marilyn Monroe (no offense to the actress).  Geek or not, Leonard is decent-enough looking that he probably could have found comparable alternatives to Penny if he tried hard enough.

This is another thing I dislike about Leonard.  The main attraction with Penny is that she is usually going to be the prettiest woman in the room.  Like it or not, that has some real cache in our superficial world.  The thing that annoys me about Leonard is this seems to be the exact reason he wants her so badly.  He gets a big ego boost from dating the prettiest girl.  You can see the smugness on his face anytime someone brings it up to him:  "She sleeps with you?"  "Yeah, she does".  Some guys want something deeper, Leonard seems mostly interested in bragging rights.  

[Winston Wolfe]

32 minutes ago, rmontro said:

This is another thing I dislike about Leonard.  The main attraction with Penny is that she is usually going to be the prettiest woman in the room.  Like it or not, that has some real cache in our superficial world.  The thing that annoys me about Leonard is this seems to be the exact reason he wants her so badly.  He gets a big ego boost from dating the prettiest girl.  You can see the smugness on his face anytime someone brings it up to him:  "She sleeps with you?"  "Yeah, she does".  Some guys want something deeper, Leonard seems mostly interested in bragging rights.  

You nailed it.  Being a super-genius (who might actually be smarter than Sheldon if you look at their respective accomplishments) isn't enough for Leonard.  He really, desperately needs the trophy wife for validation.  Crazy thing is, it didn't necessarily have to be Penny.  Both Priya and Dr. Stephanie were both accomplished and attractive enough (I've always found Sara Rue to be smoking hot) that he could have still gotten the recognition he needs - with the added bonus of folks thinking "damn, his woman is hot and brilliant."

[rmontro]

15 minutes ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Both Priya and Dr. Stephanie were both accomplished and attractive enough  (I've always found Sara Rue to be smoking hot)

Obviously it's a subjective subject, but I don't see Dr. Stephanie on that level looks wise.  She kind of disappeared from the series rather mysteriously, didn't she?

Priya I agree, but she did not show the desire to have a serious relationship with Leonard, and certainly was not faithful to him.  Long distance relationships are also very hard to maintain.  Plus her parents did not approve, so there are a lot of roadblocks there.  The main thing is Leonard didn't have enough access to her to "wear her down".  I think he still ultimately preferred to have Penny, but at least when he was with Priya he wasn't mooning over Penny so much.  So Priya seemed to satisfy his desires on some level.

[Crs97]

Quote

I've never bought for a minute that Penny was a bully in high school.  Going along with the popular kids, yes, for sure, and regrettable to a degree I'm sure but that's a far cry from actively bullying other kids.  To me that was one episode that had a few lines to get some laughs that had nothing to do with Penny's real past.

At Sheldon’s surprise party she confessed that he would have been a kid she made fun of in school.  I think it’s come up enough times that we can conclude she was a mean girl at times in school.

[shapeshifter]

17 hours ago, Crs97 said:

At Sheldon’s surprise party she confessed that he would have been a kid she made fun of in school.  I think it’s come up enough times that we can conclude she was a mean girl at times in school.

True. But if Penny was a real person, the US Criminal Justice System would be advised to study her in order to learn how a person can be completely rehabilitated.

[FinnishViewer]

19 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I've never bought for a minute that Penny was a bully in high school.  Going along with the popular kids, yes, for sure, and regrettable to a degree I'm sure but that's a far cry from actively bullying other kids.

Actually there was an episode where she called through all the people she bullied back in high school.

[CherryAmes]

6 hours ago, FinnishViewer said:

Actually there was an episode where she called through all the people she bullied back in high school.

I'm pretty sure that's the same episode I am thinking of. It was only after that one IIRC that there were occasional references to Penny being a bit of a mean girl in high school.  I find this irritating because it's a contradiction of the character of Penny that was established at the start of the series and it's also a contradiction of the way Penny has always treated her friends, particularly Amy.  There are numerous instances that we see of Penny being kind and going out of her way to be forbearing under circumstances where a true "mean girl" would have been, at the very least, snarky!

It waters down, IMO, what true bullying actually is - and we need look no further than Bernadette at work to see what that is!

[Crs97]

Bernadette is a bully without question, and it isn’t cute in any respect.

I always assumed Penny was a somewhat clueless popular girl who was the big fish in her little town of Nebraska.  As such, she was meaner than she should have been to those deemed beneath her.  Then she got to California where she thought she would remain a big deal, and things didn’t work out as planned.  It humbled her and helped her grow into the relatively nice person we see now.  It happens.

[Driad]

There are really two Pennys. We can tell them apart because they have different last names. :-)

[CherryAmes]

17 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

Bernadette is a bully without question, and it isn’t cute in any respect.

I've liked the way they've tried to explain Bernadette's behavior.  But that said, it's an explanation, not an excuse.  I am hoping now that she will be a mother to two children that they might have her reconsider her attitude at work.  Not the wanting to excel side of course but definitely the bullying - especially now that she knows her behavior has made everyone afraid of her.