S02.E06: Vergangenheit

[Clanstarling]

11 hours ago, Pallas said:

Opposite Anthony Andrews, a very good David. So, yes. The Woman He Loved, 1988.  Available in full on YouTube.

I could see him as David. Amusingly, he was in The King's Speech as Stanley Baldwin (forget who the character is, but as it was about Elizabeth's father, it's a nice tie-in). I've loved him since he was in Danger UXB back in the late 70's.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Clanstarling

[Pallas]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Amusingly, he was in The King's Speech as Stanley Baldwin (forget who the character is, but as it was about Elizabeth's father, it's a nice tie-in).

Amusing and ironic: Baldwin was the British Prime Minister at Edward VIII's ascension, and throughout the next eleven months of the abdication crisis. It was to Baldwin that George V lamented that "the boy will ruin himself in twelve months," and Baldwin who opposed Edward VIII's marriage to Wallis Simpson on any grounds, leading the government in a strategy that offered no out but abdication -- against the advice of then-Cabinet minister WInston Churchill. 

Where Baldwin and Edward found common ground -- along with Neville Chamberlain, Baldwin's successor as PM -- was in their pacifism. All were willing to grant concessions to a Germany ruled by Hitler (as of 1932) rather than break the peace barely 14 years old. Churchill's animosity to Baldwin on this count is depicted here, and succinctly summed up in his response when asked to send Baldwin an 80th birthday greeting: "It would have been much better had he never lived."   

[PeterPirate]

I was a little surprised to find that Churchill spoke more favorable words about Neville Chamberlain.

I can only speculate it's because Chamberlain increased arms production in Britain after signing the Munich Agreement.   

Edited April 17, 2018 by PeterPirate
Because "little surprised" and "a little surprised" mean different things.

[IDreamofJoaquin]

This episodes is where a boring second season finally picks up.   Really well written and detailed.

[VCRTracking]

In a funny way Billy Graham was kind of Elizbeth's "Elvis". A charismatic, passionate, American Southerner of humble origin.

Edited August 13, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Yokosmom]

It's amazing to me that "Fruity" Metcalfe was even still speaking to Uncle Nazi, much less putting him up during his stay in England.  Fruity gave up his career (or career path) in the military when Edward was still Prince of Wales in order to be his on call pal and friend.  Edward promised him a position in the government/palace when he became King, but never followed through. After the abdication, he went with Edward and Wallis to France.  When WWII started the British government demanded that the Windsors leave France and get to a safer area.  They stalled and acted as if there was no urgency at all, despite the fact that millions of people were hitting the road to escape.  So, Fruity gets up one morning and goes to greet Edward & Wallis at breakfast and discovers that they are gone.  As is the only automobile.  And all the fuel. And possibly, even the bicycle, though I'm not sure on that last part.  They abandoned him without telling him that they were leaving.  I guess that they figured that he wouldn't fit in the car along with Wallis' 20 pieces of luggage.  He had to find his own way back to England.

That's Edward and Wallis in a nutshell.  Unbelievably selfish people.

[andromeda331]

29 minutes ago, Yokosmom said:

It's amazing to me that "Fruity" Metcalfe was even still speaking to Uncle Nazi, much less putting him up during his stay in England.  Fruity gave up his career (or career path) in the military when Edward was still Prince of Wales in order to be his on call pal and friend.  Edward promised him a position in the government/palace when he became King, but never followed through. After the abdication, he went with Edward and Wallis to France.  When WWII started the British government demanded that the Windsors leave France and get to a safer area.  They stalled and acted as if there was no urgency at all, despite the fact that millions of people were hitting the road to escape.  So, Fruity gets up one morning and goes to greet Edward & Wallis at breakfast and discovers that they are gone.  As is the only automobile.  And all the fuel. And possibly, even the bicycle, though I'm not sure on that last part.  They abandoned him without telling him that they were leaving.  I guess that they figured that he wouldn't fit in the car along with Wallis' 20 pieces of luggage.  He had to find his own way back to England.

That's Edward and Wallis in a nutshell.  Unbelievably selfish people.

Wow! Why would he do that after what Edward did to him?

[doodlebug]

6 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Wow! Why would he do that after what Edward did to him?

Well, at least Metcalfe wasn't the British body guard sent back into occupied France to retrieve a swimsuit that Wallis forgot to pack.  They were truly the worst.

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Well, at least Metcalfe wasn't the British body guard sent back into occupied France to retrieve a swimsuit that Wallis forgot to pack.  They were truly the worst.

They really were!

[Yokosmom]

Quote

Wow! Why would he do that after what Edward did to him?

I think that there was some frostiness during the rest of the war, but Metcalfe eventually let him back into his life.  He'd spent 15-20 years at the Prince's beck and call, and it is hard to give up such an all consuming relationship.  (I guess---getting abandoned in a foreign country during an invasion would be a dealbreaker for me). In the 1920s and 1930s he was in charge of the Prince's stables for a while, until King George V ordered his heir to give up foxhunting (too dangerous).  Anyway, back to the episode--considering everything, Edward had a lot of gall to snark at Metcalfe's digs--I suspect that there really weren't that many people in England who were willing to put up with him at all.  That said, I utterly adore the bitchiness that he displays in his letters.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Yokosmom

[PeterPirate]

On 8/9/2018 at 3:23 AM, IDreamofJoaquin said:

This episodes is where a boring second season finally picks up.   Really well written and detailed.

In my opinion the episode before this one was when things picked up.  But yes, this episode ranks up there among the best of television drama.  

Yokosmom, thanks much for that information about Fruity Metcalfe.  You are right, David and Wallis were the worst.  

Edited October 10, 2018 by PeterPirate

[andromeda331]

7 hours ago, Yokosmom said:

I think that there was some frostiness during the rest of the war, but Metcalfe eventually let him back into his life.  He'd spent 15-20 years at the Prince's beck and call, and it is hard to give up such an all consuming relationship.  (I guess---getting abandoned in a foreign country during an invasion would be a dealbreaker for me). In the 1920s and 1930s he was in charge of the Prince's stables for a while, until King George V ordered his heir to give up foxhunting (too dangerous).  Anyway, back to the episode--considering everything, Edward had a lot of gall to snark at Metcalfe's digs--I suspect that there really weren't that many people in England who were willing to put up with him at all.  That said, I utterly adore the bitchiness that he displays in his letters.

 

That would be a dealbreaker for me too. I understand loyalty, friendship and all that but not after all that. I admit I like the letters too. They were kind of awesome in their bitchiness. I really wish Mary hadn't died so soon even though I know she did in real life. She had a lot of awesome quips too. 

Edited October 10, 2018 by andromeda331

[Carolina Girl]

On 12/11/2017 at 8:14 PM, MarysWetBar said:

Am i the only one who literally sniffs and says" oh, you horrible woman" every time i see Wallis? 

Nope.  Can't stand her.  She didn't want Edward to abdicate - NOT because she thought he would be a great king or because she loved the British people.  She didn't want him to abdicate because once he did, then there was no way she could avoid marrying him and at that point she didn't want to be saddled with him for the rest of her life.  Recently discovered letters that she wrote to her ex-husband Ernest Simpson reveal that she still really loved him, not Edward, and was hoping against hope for an escape hatch before the abdication.

I imagine she did relish the idea of puppet King and Queen of England, put on the throne by Hitler.  Thank God England had a man with a backbone sitting on the throne and an equally stalwart giant as their Prime Minister during WWII. 

And let's not forget the brave AMERICAN pilots (who literally defied the law and risked losing their citizenship) and those from around the world who joined the RAF and help them fight the Battle of Britain.  The world was UNITED against the Nazi Monster.  Edward and Wallis had lunch with him.

[Zella]

Been watching the second season long after everyone else. I echo the praise for this episode. It's tied with Assassins as my favorite episode of the show. 

I knew Windsor was a Nazi sympathizer, but I was surprised and appalled at the extent of it. Those real-life photos at the end were the perfect way to end the episode.

Pleasantly surprised by how good the Billy Graham impersonation was. I know the actor is very good, but I'm most familiar with him as Mickey Doyle in Boardwalk Empire and was afraid I wouldn't be able to unsee him in that role.

I'd really love a spinoff focusing on the abdication. Or Tommy's retirement hobbies. :) That man is my spirit animal. Echoing discussion from the last episode, my computer wallpaper is now him and his dogs disgruntedly watching television in style. 

Edited January 17, 2019 by Zella

[Cheezwiz]

On 1/17/2019 at 7:13 AM, Zella said:

I'd really love a spinoff focusing on the abdication. Or Tommy's retirement hobbies. :) That man is my spirit animal. Echoing discussion from the last episode, my computer wallpaper is now him and his dogs disgruntedly watching television in style. 

Awesome! Lascelles apparently lived until the early 1980's, so hopefully he (and his amazing dogs) will continue to be featured in future seasons. I'm sure he probably wasn't as colourful in real life, but the actor portraying him is an absolute riot, and I squee like a fan-girl every time he appears on screen!

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, Cheezwiz said:

Awesome! Lascelles apparently lived until the early 1980's, so hopefully he (and his amazing dogs) will continue to be featured in future seasons. I'm sure he probably wasn't as colourful in real life, but the actor portraying him is an absolute riot, and I squee like a fan-girl every time he appears on screen!

Hehe I do the fan girl squee, too, any time he pops up! 

I've made my peace with the other characters being recast for later seasons, but I don't think my heart can bear anyone else as Tommy Lascelles. It would just be wrong. Still, I'm hoping he shows up again, and it's still Pip Torrens. 

I've actually just ordered the real Tommy Lascelles' diaries, which were published after his death. I have a feeling he won't be quite as entertaining in person, but I do get the impression he was an avid reader, at least, so that detail about him toting around a Napoleonic War history on his undercover mission with Eileen Parker rings true.  

I first saw Pip Torrens on Poldark, where he plays the villain's even eviler Uncle Cary. As terrible of a character as he is on there, I am always absolutely delighted when he pops up because he's so entertaining. Basically the Lascelles trademark disdain but without anything resembling a moral code. He is, sadly, without the awesome mustache on there, though. 

[latetotheparty]

7 hours ago, Zella said:

 

I first saw Pip Torrens on Poldark, where he plays the villain's even eviler Uncle Cary. As terrible of a character as he is on there, I am always absolutely delighted when he pops up because he's so entertaining. Basically the Lascelles trademark disdain but without anything resembling a moral code. He is, sadly, without the awesome mustache on there, though. 

As someone who first fell for Alan Rickman watching Die Hard I completely understand the appeal of a charismatic villain!

[chitowngirl]

1 hour ago, latetotheparty said:

As someone who first fell for Alan Rickman watching Die Hard I completely understand the appeal of a charismatic villain!

Well, it’s Alan Rickman!!

[latetotheparty]

1 hour ago, chitowngirl said:

Well, it’s Alan Rickman!!

Enough said! 😁

[Carolina Girl]

On 1/17/2019 at 7:13 AM, Zella said:

Been watching the second season long after everyone else. I echo the praise for this episode. It's tied with Assassins as my favorite episode of the show. 

I knew Windsor was a Nazi sympathizer, but I was surprised and appalled at the extent of it. Those real-life photos at the end were the perfect way to end the episode.

Pleasantly surprised by how good the Billy Graham impersonation was. I know the actor is very good, but I'm most familiar with him as Mickey Doyle in Boardwalk Empire and was afraid I wouldn't be able to unsee him in that role.

I'd really love a spinoff focusing on the abdication. Or Tommy's retirement hobbies. :) That man is my spirit animal. Echoing discussion from the last episode, my computer wallpaper is now him and his dogs disgruntedly watching television in style. 

Thames did a six-part series called Edward and Mrs. Simpson which was rather well done.  Of course it ends with their wedding so nothing of the rather disastrous like they led after, and done before Wallis’ letters to Ernest were discovered, but it does give hints to the elitist bitch she was in real life.  Cynthia Stevens and Edward Fox are in the title roles.  The first two episodes can be seen on You Tube     I’ve yet to find the remaining four.   

[Zella]

25 minutes ago, Carolina Girl said:

Thames did a six-part series called Edward and Mrs. Simpson which was rather well done.  Of course it ends with their wedding so nothing of the rather disastrous like they led after, and done before Wallis’ letters to Ernest were discovered, but it does give hints to the elitist bitch she was in real life.  Cynthia Stevens and Edward Fox are in the title roles.  The first two episodes can be seen on You Tube     I’ve yet to find the remaining four.   

Thanks for the recommendation! I'll try to hunt it down. Last night, I watched the documentary on Netflix that people here had suggested called Edward VIII: The Nazi King. If anything, it's even more damning than this episode!

[Carolina Girl]

5 hours ago, Zella said:

Thanks for the recommendation! I'll try to hunt it down. Last night, I watched the documentary on Netflix that people here had suggested called Edward VIII: The Nazi King. If anything, it's even more damning than this episode!

Cynthia HARRIS played Mrs . Simpson.  I goofed. Cut this Stevens is somebody else altogether.   

[andromeda331]

11 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

Cynthia HARRIS played Mrs . Simpson.  I goofed. Cut this Stevens is somebody else altogether.   

Cynthia Harris played Mrs. Simpson? Paul's mom from Mad About You! 

[Badger]

Edward and Mrs. Simpson is available on Acorn .

[Umbelina]

I loved this episode!

I'm so impressed by the acting of everyone on this show.  Foy's emotional changes during this episode were simply perfection.  Actually, everyone on screen really brought it.

There is so much out there about Edward, and much of it is on Youtube.  I watched one the other day that had pretty significant implications that Edward was maneuvered into abdicating by a horrified government well aware of his treason. 

I'm glad the show focused on this side of his relationship, rather than all the kinkier stuff that is out there about the two of them, but at least  showed her bitchiness and closeness to the Nazi's.  I grew up on the "great romance" bullshit being sold full force, so it's refreshing to see the two of them exposed in pop culture for what they really were.  I remember even then, watching some special or other about them and the greatest love of the century spin on television, and taking an instant dislike to both of them, especially her.  It shattered the romance stories for me to actually see them, and listen to them.

I wonder if the publication of that report cause many waves in Great Britain at the time?  Was it a bombshell?  How long did it take for more things to come out?  Did the tabloids explode with the (limited) revelations there?  Off to that thread here to see if it's already been asked and answered!

Sex is a powerful thing.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Umbelina

[Crs97]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I grew up on the "great romance" bullshit being sold full force, so it's refreshing to see the two of them exposed in pop culture for what they really were. 

I can remember “Seventeen” magazine (does that even exist anymore?) once  listing the abdication as the number one most romantic gesture ever.  I didn’t know the story, but the description sounded lovely.  Luckily I had a mother who made it clear that there was nothing romantic about abandoning his country and shirking his duty, and any woman who encouraged that behavior was no heroine.

[Zella]

On 4/24/2019 at 6:08 PM, Crs97 said:

I can remember “Seventeen” magazine (does that even exist anymore?) once  listing the abdication as the number one most romantic gesture ever.  I didn’t know the story, but the description sounded lovely.  Luckily I had a mother who made it clear that there was nothing romantic about abandoning his country and shirking his duty, and any woman who encouraged that behavior was no heroine.

Your mom is awesome!

[andromeda331]

On ‎4‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 5:08 PM, Crs97 said:

I can remember “Seventeen” magazine (does that even exist anymore?) once  listing the abdication as the number one most romantic gesture ever.  I didn’t know the story, but the description sounded lovely.  Luckily I had a mother who made it clear that there was nothing romantic about abandoning his country and shirking his duty, and any woman who encouraged that behavior was no heroine.

I wish I had someone who did that for me. Your mom is awesome. I bought the story completely. It was so romantic. I didn't never heard anything else until I finally read a biography that mentioned the Nazi rumor but I couldn't find anything else that mentioned it until years later. I really wish I had known sooner. They were two horrible people. 

[Crs97]

She is awesome; thanks!  She’s getting close to 90, survived open heart surgery and breast cancer, still drives safely, just took up yoga, and is one of those people that strangers meet and pour out their hearts to so she can fix it all.  When she flies up to see us, she always has a wonderful story about the conversation she had with a person sitting near her.  We lost my dad over 20 years ago, and she misses him daily but can always see the bright side of everything.  She exudes serenity and compassion, but pulls no punches in telling you how it is, as you saw from her commentary on Edward and Wallis.

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, Crs97 said:

She is awesome; thanks!  She’s getting close to 90, survived open heart surgery and breast cancer, still drives safely, just took up yoga, and is one of those people that strangers meet and pour out their hearts to so she can fix it all.  When she flies up to see us, she always has a wonderful story about the conversation she had with a person sitting near her.  We lost my dad over 20 years ago, and she misses him daily but can always see the bright side of everything.  She exudes serenity and compassion, but pulls no punches in telling you how it is, as you saw from her commentary on Edward and Wallis.

I want to be her when I grow ... older. But I think the ship has sailed.

[Umbelina]

I just did a search for the Marburg Files, found out they are sometimes called the Windsor Files, and this, where, for a fee, you can download and read them.  It's pricey though.  $46 https://www.jstor.org/stable/24449968?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

You'd think that if the British and the American governments both published, they would be available, without a fee, to read.  The sample page says that the Windsor Files are only a small part of the massive files, and that many sections of that particular focus (on David) were held back from publication.

This is still, especially the last half, one of my favorite episodes of The Crown.

I'll be sad not seeing Foy as Elizabeth when the series continues.

Edited June 26, 2019 by Umbelina

[Cheezwiz]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I'll be sad not seeing Foy as Elizabeth when the series continues

Me too - I will miss her, she was phenomenal in the role. If I was watching and closed my eyes while she was speaking, I could have sworn it was the real HRH Queen Elizabeth's voice.

But I am curious to see what Olivia Coleman (also a phenominal talent) will do as middle-aged Elizabeth. Helena Bonham Carter as Margaret will be a big and rather unusual switch from Vanessa Kirby as well. Can't wait for this to start up again! More Tommy Lascelles and his giant-ass dogs please!

[Zella]

I'm going to really miss Foy--though I'm sure Coleman will be good. I am really psyched for Menzies. I've been a fan of his for a long time. Matt Smith was a bit hit or miss for me as Philip. When he was good, he was very good, but when he was bad, he was very bad. 

[Constantinople]

I watched the episode against last night, and the following scene struck me when Lascelles told the Queen about the Duke of Windsor

Shall I continue, ma'am? When a German aircraft crashed in Belgium carrying Hitler's entire military plan for the invasion of France, the Duke wasted no time in letting his Nazi friends know that Allied forces had, indeed, recovered this priceless information, which gave Germany time to change its plans - Tommy Lascelles

How would the Duke have known about the plane crash, what was on the plane and that Allied forces recovered it?

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but it seems a little iffy, especially since his Nazi sympathies were already known. Who would have told him and why?

I presume the show is referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechelen_incident, which makes clear the Germans figured out almost immediately what happened without help from the DoW.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Constantinople

[Umbelina]

13 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I watched the episode against last night, and the following scene struck me when Lascelles told the Queen about the Duke of Windsor

Shall I continue, ma'am? When a German aircraft crashed in Belgium carrying Hitler's entire military plan for the invasion of France, the Duke wasted no time in letting his Nazi friends know that Allied forces had, indeed, recovered this priceless information, which gave Germany time to change its plans - Tommy Lascelles

How would the Duke have known about the plane crash, what was on the plane and that Allied forces recovered it?

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but it seems a little iffy, especially since his Nazi sympathies were already known. Who would have told him and why?

I presume the show is referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechelen_incident, which makes clear the Germans figured out almost immediately what happened without help from the DoW.

Wasn't he was ambassador to France at that time, there are many ways he could have known, including loyal allied spies, or simply being told.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Umbelina

[Constantinople]

59 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Wasn't he was ambassador to France at that time, there are many ways he could have known, including loyal allied spies, or simply being told.

No, he wasn't Ambassador to France. I'm not sure where he was living at the time since for a while in 1939 he was taken back to Britain, but apparently later was back in France.

In any case, I don't see why anyone would tell him. It's none of his business, he doesn't need to know and there were already question marks about him.

It just seems like gilding the lily given that they didn't specify how he knew that plans were on the plane, and how the British government knew that the DoW notified the Germans about it.

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, Constantinople said:

No, he wasn't Ambassador to France. I'm not sure where he was living at the time since for a while in 1939 he was taken back to Britain, but apparently later was back in France.

In any case, I don't see why anyone would tell him. It's none of his business, he doesn't need to know and there were already question marks about him.

It just seems like gilding the lily given that they didn't specify how he knew that plans were on the plane, and how the British government knew that the DoW notified the Germans about it.

My browser is acting up so googling ANYTHING is impossible right now.  I'm running a scan.

Anyway, in the same episode he refers to himself as having been an ambassador to France, I THINK.  So I can't think of another time he could have done that job, other than after abdication, and before he in Spain, and then shipped off to be out of the way in Bermuda, or wherever it was down there.

Again, I'd love to google it but this computer is BARELY running right now.  😘

Either way, as former King he would have multiple connections throughout the world, after all, not all disagreed with his politics and some actually bought "the woman I love" crap.  Plane is downed, the invasion information is obtained by someone, and word makes it to him from any number of possible sources.  After all, England WAS considered an ally, and they were also covering up his Nazi sympathies.

If the show went that far to "make something up" I'd honestly be shocked.  I know they are fudging dates and other things, but that is a pretty huge mislead to be baseless.  

 

Just from Wikipedia though, still trying to fix my computer.

During the Second World War, Edward was at first stationed with the British Military Mission to France, but after private accusations that he was a Nazi sympathiser, he was appointed Governor of the Bahamas. 

---

In February 1940, the German ambassador in The Hague, Count Julius von Zech-Burkersroda, claimed that the Duke had leaked the Allied war plans for the defence of Belgium,[93] which the Duke later denied.[94] When Germany invaded the north of France in May 1940, the Windsors fled south, first to Biarritz, then in June to Francoist Spain. In July the pair moved to Portugal, where they lived at first in the home of Ricardo Espírito Santo, a Portuguese banker with both British and German contacts.[95] Under the code name Operation Willi, Nazi agents, principally Walter Schellenberg, plotted unsuccessfully to persuade the Duke to leave Portugal and return to Spain, kidnapping him if necessary.[96] Lord Caldecote wrote a warning to Winston Churchill, who was now prime minister: "[the Duke] is well-known to be pro-Nazi and he may become a centre of intrigue."[97] Churchill threatened the Duke with a court-martial if he did not return to British soil.[98]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_VIII

I'm finding more, but my computer froze.  History.com has something on "The Mechelen Incident" which I think was about the plane, but I can't open the link.  

[PeterPirate]

The role of Ambassador to France was one the positions considered for David in the episode.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

In February 1940, the German ambassador in The Hague, Count Julius von Zech-Burkersroda, claimed that the Duke had leaked the Allied war plans for the defence of Belgium,[93] which the Duke later denied.[94] 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_VIII

Here is reference 93:

https://archive.org/stream/documentsongerma014726mbp#page/n871/mode/2up

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

The role of Ambassador to France was one the positions considered for David in the episode.

Here is reference 93:

https://archive.org/stream/documentsongerma014726mbp#page/n871/mode/2up

Yeah, I thought he had also said he "used to be" but I could be wrong.  Either way, he did work with the British Military Mission to France.

I'll google more tomorrow.  I just spent the last 6 hours trying to save my computer, and it looks like (so far) it's FINALLY worked.  

I wish they would just release the "Windsor Files" and end whatever speculation still exists.  https://www.history.com/news/history-behind-the-crown-queen-elizabeth-edward-margaret-fact-check  This is interesting, but I don't THINK it mentions the plane incident.  (My eyes and mind are a blur right now.)

[Wordsworth]

I recently finished all three seasons of "The Crown".  Mr. Wordsworth and I enjoyed it and he knows virtually nothing about the monarchy or English history.  This episode is in his top ten and is probably my #1 favorite episode.

David and Wallis really were delightfully evil in the first two seasons.  Mr. Wordsworth referred to them as the British Team Rocket (from Pokemon) with their snark and pretentiousness.  When we saw the dog party at the beginning of the episode, we were so excited to have them featured again.  Unfortunately, I knew what the Marburg files were and he did not so he had a surprise coming.   It certainly skewed his opinion of the Windsors after that.

I agree wholeheartedly that the final panels of actual photos did a lot to drive home that this wasn't just drama created for the show.

However, it's important to note that, in the 1930's, German treatment of the Jews was, by and large, discriminatory, not homicidal.  There were instances, such as Kristallnacht, that the German government portrayed as spontaneous mob violence, that were later determined to have been organized, but, for the most part, violence against Jews was largely blamed on fringe elements.  The British (and, for that matter, the American) government didn't agree with it, but it was considered an internal German problem, not an international responsibility.  Jews in both countries protested; the German ambassador to the US tried to pressure Roosevelt into silencing the protesters and FDR explained that we don't do that here in America.  The German government retaliated by taking its anger out on the Jews still remaining in Germany.

Concentration camps in Germany in the 1930s were bad, but they were prison camps, not death camps.  Political prisoners and actual criminals were the bulk of inmates in the 1930s.  People could, and did, die in them, but not en masse and there was no policy of systematic extermination of the Jews at that time.   The German government's policy during this period was to get the Jews to leave the country.  Jews that were arrested and detained in a concentration camp were often released after several months and encouraged to emigrate...after the German government fleeced them of everything of value.  During a global depression, few countries were willing to accept large numbers of people who didn't speak the language, didn't have a job lined up, didn't know anyone and didn't have any money.

The "Final Solution" didn't start happening until after the war began. So, if David visited a concentration camp in 1937, he would have probably seen political prisoners and criminals exercising, working, getting mail, etc.  He would not have seen starving women and children and absolutely would not have seen gas chambers or crematoria.  There's no doubt in my mind that he certainly was shown a sanitized version of a standard camp.

David was probably bigoted against the Jews - a lot of people were in those days - but there's a huge difference between believing in the bigoted generalization that Jews hold a disproportionate position in the business world and wanting them all from cradle to grave to be murdered.   By the time it was known in the international community that the Jews were being murdered, the war was on and it was felt that the best way to help the Jews was to win the war.

Prior to the war, those who felt that Hitler could be negotiated with were numerous in the government and in the public at large.  No one wanted another devastating war...except Hitler.  That was the problem.   They thought Hitler didn't want war.  They thought by negotiating with him they could avoid it.  David wasn't alone in this belief nor was he alone in thinking that the Nazis, with all their faults, would be a bulwark in central Europe against the violent athetistic revolutionaries in the Soviet Union.  Appeasement is a legitimate negotiating tool - it just didn't work with Hitler.

As for the portrayal of Billy Graham, I thought his character was spot on and loved the conversations between him and the Queen.  His simple Christianity appealed to her over the ritualistic Church of England with its learned, yet rigid, heirarchy.  The Queen Mother's comments about him having been a brush salesman reflected the attitude that such a man could have had no meaningful theological education and, thus, didn't have any real spiritual authority.

The final scene of David stuck in this pedantic life of parties and playing cards with Wallis' friends, looking at himself in the mirror certainly reflected a far different person than we have seen depicted thus far.  I agree with JJJ's earlier comment that a prequel series with Jared Harris and Alex Jennings would be great.  I'd love to see "The Crown" reinvented several times going back through the monarchy and setting the stage for this series as the decades go by.

Wishful thinking, I'm sure.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spartan Girl]

David, when you chum up with Nazis and conspire to sell out your family and allies to them, you have ZERO rights to lecture anyone else about inhumanity. Fuck off.

[Carolina Girl]

On 2/9/2019 at 11:53 PM, Badger said:

Edward and Mrs. Simpson is available on Acorn .

Also on IMBD TV in Amazon Prime. Just watched it again last week  

 

On 11/20/2019 at 1:47 PM, Constantinople said:

No, he wasn't Ambassador to France. I'm not sure where he was living at the time since for a while in 1939 he was taken back to Britain, but apparently later was back in France.

In any case, I don't see why anyone would tell him. It's none of his business, he doesn't need to know and there were already question marks about him.

It just seems like gilding the lily given that they didn't specify how he knew that plans were on the plane, and how the British government knew that the DoW notified the Germans about it.

There is a documentary out on Amazon Prime called Edward VIII - Traitor King.  It explains how he came to learn about it.  He was told this by someone who assumed that he would keep the information confidential due to a position he held in the British service

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

Also on IMBD TV in Amazon Prime. Just watched it again last week  

 

There is a documentary out on Amazon Prime called Edward VIII - Traitor King.  It explains how he came to learn about it.  He was told this by someone who assumed that he would keep the information confidential due to a position he held in the British service

Watching it now.  Wow, there were even more damning photos the show could have used.

[Razzberry]

I've been rewatching some episodes and this is still one of my favorites.  It has it all - a dog's birthday party, Tommy and his toy soldiers, Billy Graham, Nazis, a drunk and horny Philip, and best of all David getting buzzed out.  I want a buzzer too.

 

[andromeda331]

55 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

I've been rewatching some episodes and this is still one of my favorites.  It has it all - a dog's birthday party, Tommy and his toy soldiers, Billy Graham, Nazis, a drunk and horny Philip, and best of all David getting buzzed out.  I want a buzzer too.

 

I agree. Its one of my favorites. The only thing I wish they did was show the scene of Philip getting drunk with Tommy and the Queen Mother. That would have been gold.

[AZChristian]

1 hour ago, Razzberry said:

Tommy and his toy soldiers . . . 

I have OCD.  I was SO impressed when Tommy immediately put that back where it was before HM moved it.

[Clanstarling]

18 hours ago, AZChristian said:

I have OCD.  I was SO impressed when Tommy immediately put that back where it was before HM moved it.

I'm not sure I have OCD, but I did applaud Tommy at that moment. I felt his irritation.

[Inquisitionist]

On 11/20/2020 at 9:26 PM, Carolina Girl said:

There is a documentary out on Amazon Prime called Edward VIII - Traitor King.  It explains how he came to learn about it.  He was told this by someone who assumed that he would keep the information confidential due to a position he held in the British service

Well shoot, it's gone now.  😟