S02.E06: Vergangenheit

[Humbugged]

On 12/14/2017 at 1:41 PM, greekmom said:

I checked it out. Only available on US Netflix :( Hopefully they bring it to Canada.

[GaT]

Can you imagine how different the world would be now if Edward was king?

[jumper sage]

On 12/12/2017 at 6:20 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

According to this article, she carries "a small mirror, lipstick, mints, reading glasses, a pen, and, on Sundays, a crisply ironed £5 or £10 note (never more) for the church collection plate." Her ladies in waiting have extra gloves, tights, and sewing essentials for her. She also uses her bag to signal others. If she switches her handbag from one hand to another, that's the "time to move this person along" signal. When she puts her bag on the table, that means she wants to leave in five minutes. When she puts it on the floor, that means she wants one of her ladies in waiting to come rescue her.

I love fun facts like these.  Thank you.

18 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I wonder how much more of the Windsors we'll see. Elizabeth put the kibosh on his desire to come back to work, and that never changed. She did allow him to return to London a few times for medical and private family reasons, but for the most part, David and Wallis spent the rest of their lives going to parties. We might get a scene or two out of their deaths—there's not much else to show regarding those two.

There is so much more to tell about the Duke of Windsor.  Believing he didn't know what was going on during WWII is ludicrous.  Putting in spoiler in case they revisit WWII.

Spoiler

At the outbreak of WWII the Duke of Windsor became a British intelligence officer and worked with the French.  When France was invaded he and Wallis fled - they took all the cars and left the servants without a way out by the way - The Duke was being ordered back to England but dawdled in Lisbon.  The American and Brits knew there was a plan hatched by the Nazis to kidnap the Duke.  American documents, recently released, details the Stooges-esque way in which the Duke was finally safe and sent to the Bahamas to keep him out of the way.  See this link for "Operation Willi".

[Jeeves]

On 12/12/2017 at 9:04 AM, MissLucas said:

 If we could travel back to pre-war times in a Tardis we would have a rude awakening at the number of people who were willing to put up with the Nazis as bulwark against communism.

 

17 hours ago, locomoco said:

Perhaps Prince Philip did that, and that's why he was so against letting come back to visit.

Taking my reply over to the History discussion.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Jeeves

[PeterPirate]

10 hours ago, Humbugged said:

(Video)

Thanks for this.  It's not the same as the Netflix documentary that's been referenced before, but it covers the same material.  It does back up the claim that David was the reason why the Germans learned the Allies had obtained their plans to invade through Belgium.  That bit alone damns him through time immemorial.  There is also quite a bit more information about David's willingness to become king again and his opining about the bombing of London.  

The royals don't fare so well either in this one. 

Also, here's an Americanized (National Geographic) version of the Netflix (BBC) documentary.  They excised out the charge that David told the Germans about their captured war plans. 

Edited December 16, 2017 by PeterPirate

[dubbel zout]

8 hours ago, jumper sage said:

There is so much more to tell about the Duke of Windsor.

About him, yes, but not really how he affects the Crown. That's what I meant. 

[Inquisitionist]

On 12/8/2017 at 2:53 PM, saoirse said:

Lord, is Matthew Goode dreamy to me. And I don't usually like men with that thin build, but, WOW.

I do like that build, and I've found him dreamy for a while!

On 12/10/2017 at 7:16 AM, AttackTurtle said:

Having read that Ms. Simpson put American diplomats lives at risk during WWII to retrieve her favorite bikini, I think she and Eddie were probably very compatible.

Argh, now I have an image of that wretched woman, with no figure to speak of, in a favorite bikini.  

On 12/10/2017 at 3:32 PM, Eri said:

 the Duke of Whinge-sor

Brilliant!

On 12/11/2017 at 8:06 AM, Ina123 said:

I loved that response. I get chills when I think, "what if there had never been a Wallis Simpson?"

I kinda think he would have found another way to sabotage his reign.  Don't think David really wanted the crown and all the responsibility that comes with it.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Inquisitionist
Fixed typo.

[Roseanna]

On 12/15/2017 at 9:34 PM, merylinkid said:

Pretty sure Jesus wouldn't have forgiven a Nazi either.  

I guess he would have, if that Nazi had shown remorse. If one doesn't even admit that one has sinned, one can't receive forgiveness - instead, one demands that one's deeds are simply ignored. 

Leaving aside the Nazi matter, there could be no reconciliation between duke of Windsor and the royal family because each party blamed the other and saw itself blamess.

The royal family thought that the duke had failed his duty and his family for his own selfish happiness and thereby forced his brother to carry the burden that crushed him and robbed his niece years of (relative) privacy.  In order to prevent more damage to the Crown, it was only right to rob the duchess of the title HRH for, with three husbands living, she wasn't fit to have it and if her marriage again failed, thar would cause new problems. 

The duke considered himself a victim whom his family had wronged by denying his wife her rightful status ja refusing to meet her, although he had done nothing wrong: he had honorably wanted to marry her and when it hadn't been possible as King, Abdication had also been an honorable decision. 

As many here have condemned duke of Windsor's journey to Nazi Germany, it's noteworthy that Winston Churchill didn't criticize him for it at all at that time. Instead, he remained his loyal supporter, 

Also, Philip Ziegler who wrote a biography of Edward VIII gave an estimation : "His tour was ill-timed and ill-adviced but not a crime."

Ziegler doesn't believe that the duke would have committed a treason.  

[madam magpie]

On 12/8/2017 at 8:05 PM, PinkRibbons said:

The fact that there was an opportunity to watch the Queen Mother, Tommy Lascelles and Prince Philip getting shitty drunk together and it wasn't shown was a travesty.

Amen to that!

 

On 12/12/2017 at 3:20 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

According to this article, she carries "a small mirror, lipstick, mints, reading glasses, a pen, and, on Sundays, a crisply ironed £5 or £10 note (never more) for the church collection plate." Her ladies in waiting have extra gloves, tights, and sewing essentials for her. She also uses her bag to signal others. If she switches her handbag from one hand to another, that's the "time to move this person along" signal. When she puts her bag on the table, that means she wants to leave in five minutes. When she puts it on the floor, that means she wants one of her ladies in waiting to come rescue her.

I love this!

Add me to the camp who laughed when Tommy moved the toy soldier back. You could just see him struggling not to lose it after the queen MESSED UP HIS MODEL.

This was a great episode, the best of the series, I think. Claire Foy really is fantastic in this, isn’t she? She says so much with just small expressions and those great eyes.

Edited December 18, 2017 by madam magpie

[roamyn]

I don't get the disdain for the Rev. Billy Graham by the elitists.

The QM esp, who couldn't see past his 'youth'    Why us meeting w/HM seen as such a big deal?  Heads of different religions meet ea other all the time.

[AnnieBeez]

1 hour ago, roamyn said:

I don't get the disdain for the Rev. Billy Graham by the elitists.

The QM esp, who couldn't see past his 'youth'    Why us meeting w/HM seen as such a big deal?  Heads of different religions meet ea other all the time.

Billy Graham wasn't the head of a religion. He was a rube.

[PeterPirate]

Speaking of time jumps and historical fiction, Billy Graham met the Queen for the first time on May 22, 1955.  That's about a year before the events of the first episode of this season, as well as the last episode of the first season.  

Aside from that, I don't know if any of the events in this episode took place at all.  Did David really visit Elizabeth to ask for a job, and are there letters from him to Wallace about that trip?   

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

Aside from that, I don't know if any of the events in this episode took place at all.  Did David really visit Elizabeth to ask for a job, and are there letters from him to Wallace about that trip?   

I don't know if there were letters about this particular trip home, but a lot of David's letters have surfaced and been sold over the years. In 2004, 14 of Wallis and David's letters were sold by a former valet. Another written to Lord Beaverbrook was sold in 2013. 250 of David's letters were found in a trunk and this one about his brother John was auctioned in 2015. I remember there was a plot on Downton Abbey about some of David's letters being lost/found so apparently this was a problem even when he was alive!

[roamyn]

15 hours ago, PuhLeeze said:

Billy Graham wasn't the head of a religion. He was a rube.

What do u mean?  Do you mean in the "he's a hick" term?  Or another way.

Looking back now, he's one of the most respected clergymen, even if I don't fully believe in his views.  But I can't deny he's an honest, moral person.

However, I wasn't born then, so my viewpoint if Rev. Graham is from the 70 s and on, not early in his career.

I just don't get the pearl clutching - esp by the DoE.

[madam magpie]

4 hours ago, roamyn said:

What do u mean?  Do you mean in the "he's a hick" term?  Or another way.

Looking back now, he's one of the most respected clergymen, even if I don't fully believe in his views.  But I can't deny he's an honest, moral person.

However, I wasn't born then, so my viewpoint if Rev. Graham is from the 70 s and on, not early in his career.

I just don't get the pearl clutching - esp by the DoE.

Evangelism has always been considered low-brow. It’s the religion of poor southern people. Queen Mum is a member of the Church of England...high-brow. She looks down on Graham because he’s an American and an evangelical: ie, emotional, uncouth, lower class, etc. That Elizabeth was taken with him speaks to acceptance and egalitarianism on her part. I found that whole bit hilarious, but I also can’t stand Billy Graham or his son or their university or evangelism and all its hypocritical intolerance.

Edited December 19, 2017 by madam magpie

[PeterPirate]

2 hours ago, madam magpie said:

Evangelism has always been considered low-brow. It’s the religion of poor southern people. Queen Mum is a member of the Church of England...high-brow. She looks down on Graham because he’s an American and an evangelical: ie, emotional, uncouth, lower class, etc. That Elizabeth was taken with him speaks to acceptance and egalitarianism on her part. I found that whole bit hilarious, but I also can’t stand Billy Graham or his son or their university or evangelism and all its hypocritical intolerance.

You might be thinking of Jerry Falwell, not Billy Graham.  Graham does not have his own university nor has he ever endorsed a political candidate.  He has also maintained a friendship with Queen Elizabeth for decades.   Billy Graham Reflects on His Friendship with Queen Elizabeth II

Franklin Graham, Billy's son, has become an evangelist. But unlike his father, he has ventured into politics and is closely aligned with the current occupant of the Oval Office.  I think it unlikely that he will meet the Queen in the future.  

[madam magpie]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

You might be thinking of Jerry Falwell, not Billy Graham.  Graham does not have his own university nor has he ever endorsed a political candidate.  He has also maintained a friendship with Queen Elizabeth for decades.   Billy Graham Reflects on His Friendship with Queen Elizabeth II

Franklin Graham, Billy's son, has become an evangelist. But unlike his father, he has ventured into politics and is closely aligned with the current occupant of the Oval Office.  I think it unlikely that he will meet the Queen in the future.  

Oh yeah! Falwell did found the university. That’s true. I do always mix up which one of them did/said what obnoxious thing. That said, Franklin Graham is also associated with Liberty University, and I read somewhere that the school recently joined forces with some Billy Graham organization to offer certain classes. 

To be fair, Billy Graham was pro integration, and like I said, Elizabeth being taken with him shows tolerance and egalitarianism on her part. That would’ve been super frowned upon in good Anglican circles. However, Graham absolutely is both an evangelist and an evangelical. And he was also the first (or at least first most famous) to make the “never alone with any woman but his wife” rule a thing. And he said something about “real women” being meant to be wives and mothers rather than pesky feminists. And weren’t there rumors of antisemitism? So...I’m pretty comfortable on the disdain train with Queen Mum, even if we are there for different reasons. 

ETA: I should clarify too that, as I understand it, it’s evangelicalism that’s associated with lower classes and would be frowned upon by upper class religions like Anglicans. An evangelist is just a preacher, I think, though the two often go together. Billy Graham also became famous on radio and TV starting in the 1940s and ‘50s, and he was (I think) the first to bring evangelicalism to a mass audience via those new media outlets. So to Queen Mum he’d have been a low-brow showman as well.  He had a lot going against him in her opinion, I’d imagine.

Edited December 19, 2017 by madam magpie

[Crs97]

I loved this episode!  I once had to lead a program on  forgiveness for my catholic moms group, and here are my two cents from my sprirtual research:

All forgiveness means is that you are willing to step aside and let God deal with that person.  You never have to speak to that person again or let him/her into your life.  Yep, you have to pray for that person and remind yourself each time the anger/pain/resentment bubbles up that he/she is also a child of God.  At some point you realize you actually can pray without resentment, “God, please work in that person’s life and make him better than he showed himself to be to me.”  It’s a process; expect to backslide.  How do you know when you’ve gotten there?  Imagine yourself in heaven and that person is walking toward you.  Are you happy to see him and know he “made it?”  If no, you have a little more work to do.  I found that plan to be incredibly freeing.

I remember watching “Edward on Edward.”  He was pretty frank about his late great-uncle, but assured us Uncle Nazi was not quite to the treasonous level.  I didn’t know if we could truly believe that then.  I haven’t read anything about the documents and now need a book on the topic.

Phillip made me laugh a lot!  Anyone else sorta hoping the tag line would be “Nine months later the Royal family welcomed the birth of Prince Andrew.”?  Just me?  Probably wouldn’t have flowed as well into the creepy pictures.  The actor plays David’s narcissistic pettiness and whining perfectly!  I need a Tommy in my life.  I was thinking it in a previous episode when he so politely and deferentially told QEQM that her idea was stupid.  I want to get all my information from him.

[Pallas]

On 12/19/2017 at 7:54 AM, Crs97 said:

I haven’t read anything about the documents and now need a book on the topic.

Philip Ziegler, King Edward VIII.  

 

On 12/19/2017 at 7:54 AM, Crs97 said:

I need a Tommy in my life.  I was thinking it in a previous episode when he so politely and deferentially told QEQM that her idea was stupid.  I want to get all my information from him.

I wouldn't want to get all my information from him. What a Palace apparatchik like Lascelles sees and knows are impoverished by prejudice and illuminated only by precedent. His vision is back-lit.

[Crs97]

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

I wouldn't want to get all my information from him. What a Palace apparatchik like Lascelles sees and knows are impoverished by prejudice and illuminated only by precedent. His vision is back-lit.

But his delivery would be so dripping with deferential contempt and his speech would be deliberate and filled with significant pauses - I would always know where he stood on the topic in question (and then go get the real scoop elsewhere).  ?

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Epic Old-School Previously.TV Recap on the episode!

 

The Crown S02.E06 Is The Episode About Nazis

You knew it was coming.

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, Pallas said:

Philip Ziegler, King Edward VIII.  

Quote

Goaded by his family's behavior and the British Government's indecision about his future, the Duke spoke loosely to his foreign hosts, telling listeners that Britain would lose the war and that he might yet have a political part to play. It is hardly surprising that his comments encouraged Nazi illusions of a future puppet king or that the British should have been as anxious to get him out of Lisbon as the Germans were to keep him there.

After Ziegler's view the duke spoke carelessly in the situations where he should have keep his opinions to himself. But that isn't the same as treason, unless one lived in Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Russia.

In More What If? Andrew Robert imagines that Lord Halifax would have become Prime Minister instead of Churchill and made a peace with Hitler. 

[Clanstarling]

On 12/11/2017 at 10:21 AM, greekmom said:

My overall thoughts on the episode was Phillip's attitude towards Uncle Nazi.  Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones and lets not forget his sister was also very heavy in the Nazi party due to her husband's involvement. 

I am not saying that Phillip shouldn't have a small opinion but compared to the Queen Mum and Tommy L. he really should have bit his tongue after voicing his first opinion.

To be fair to Phillip, he fought against the Nazis, and so far as I know, despite his many jackass white privilege comments, didn't sympathize or show sympathy. His sister's marriage had nothing to do with Phillip. Whereas, Uncle Nazi's sympathies are all about Edward.

On 12/14/2017 at 2:48 PM, Humbugged said:

Not historically accurate .

The US used them in the Indian Wars and then the Spanish used them in Cuba in The War of Independence

Not to mention in WWII - rebranded as internment camps for the Japanese.

On 12/17/2017 at 9:00 PM, madam magpie said:

Add me to the camp who laughed when Tommy moved the toy soldier back. You could just see him struggling not to lose it after the queen MESSED UP HIS MODEL.

I felt his pain. I'm not quite as fastidious and exacting, but I don't know that I would have waited as long as he did, Queen or not, to put it back.

As for Tommy's information about Edward, there came a point when it seemed, at least to me, that he couldn't possibly have known the details of Edward's thinking - as in after he abdicated. On the other hand, Tommy does have a pretty good gossip chain.

And to be fair to Edward (nooooo, I don't wanna be), I would imagine that whatever "early version" of a concentration camp he went to was every bit as staged as Theresienstadt. Which isn't to say it wasn't terrible, but that a person as self-involved as he was wouldn't have connected the dots to the fact they'd shortly become death camps. Still, the photos don't show a polite couple being shown around, they show a thoroughly engaged and eager couple. Ick. 

[Humbugged]

On 12/19/2017 at 6:49 PM, Roseanna said:

After Ziegler's view the duke spoke carelessly in the situations where he should have keep his opinions to himself. But that isn't the same as treason, unless one lived in Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Russia.

In More What If? Andrew Robert imagines that Lord Halifax would have become Prime Minister instead of Churchill and made a peace with Hitler. 

No but giving the Germans the heads up that their plans for the invasion of Belgium had been found was . As was his continued relationship with known German agents when he was in Nassau

[SistaLadybug]

On 12/15/2017 at 3:42 PM, locomoco said:

Perhaps Prince Philip did that, and that's why he was so against letting come back to visit.

The Whovian in me tips my hat to you for this.

[tennisgurl]

I swear, I NEED a scene where we flashback to Philip, the Queen Mum, and Tommy all getting drunk while bitching about old Uncle Nazi. Something they can all agree on! I always knew that Edward and Wallis were Nazi sympathizers and I had seen that picture of Wallis smiling while shaking hands with Hitler (allow me to take a shower for 30 years) but I had no idea how deep his betrayal went. I can imagine its possible that Edward didn't deliberately betray the allies (he is totally a guy who would just talk to anyone who flattered him) but I can also see him doing it deliberately, and working with the Nazi high command to become the King. I think Edward was too selfish and stupid to really think about what the Nazis believed in and what they were up to, and he didn't care. He saw people who would give him power and perks again and treated he and his horrible wife like they were special, and signed off with them. What a piece of utter garbage. The guy is complaining about being bored and rich? Even if he didn't technically commit treason, he seemed quite treason adjustment, and he deserves worse than what he got. At least history will mostly remember he and Wallis as the sniveling assholes that they were. They want something to do? Maybe help one of those countries your Nazi pals tore up? They're THE WORST. 

It also certainly makes his constant pettiness towards his family and bitching about how "badly" they treat him and Wallis even worse. He apparently was just fine with selling them out to freaking Nazis (and he HAD to know what would happen to them) a few years ago, and they're the assholes for sending you on permanent vacation once you quit literally the only job you need to do? Knowing what the world, his countrymen, and his own family went through in WWII, and what they gave up, just makes everything worse. Turns out, abdicating the throne was the best thing he could have possibly done. Also, it was nice to see Bertie and Winston Churchill again, even if it was just for a few scenes. 

Another great episode for Elizabeth. Her expression while Tommy told her about Edward was just amazing. Then when she told him off at the end, I thought he was going to actually wither, her glare was so intense. It was also a good episode for Philip. I enjoy his snarky commentary, especially when its directed at Edward, who he has nothing but utter disdain for. I know Philip can be whiny as well, and he seeks direction the way Edward says he does (although what he actually wants is more feeding of his ego and perks), but I cant imagine him doing what Edward did. If anything, with his background as a WWII vet and his estranged sisters, he probably hates him more than Elizabeth does. Also, they seemed to be in a better place than they were before, which is nice to see. 

Tommy is always a delight to see. Between his perfectly arranged figurines and his giant dogs, I would watch the hell out of a Tommy spin off. 

[WatchrTina]

One thing I find surprising, in light of this episode, is the Queen's decision to name her youngest son Edward.  I know that Nazi Edward was actually known within the family as "David" and that there were a great many King Edwards before Nazi Edward came along, but still, you would have thought Elizabeth would have given that particular name a bit of a rest, given what a colossal wanker the prior Edward Windsor turned out to be.

[txhorns79]

Quote

 I can imagine its possible that Edward didn't deliberately betray the allies (he is totally a guy who would just talk to anyone who flattered him) but I can also see him doing it deliberately, and working with the Nazi high command to become the King. I think Edward was too selfish and stupid to really think about what the Nazis believed in and what they were up to, and he didn't care. He saw people who would give him power and perks again and treated he and his horrible wife like they were special, and signed off with them. What a piece of utter garbage. The guy is complaining about being bored and rich? Even if he didn't technically commit treason, he seemed quite treason adjustment, and he deserves worse than what he got.

Just for some perspective, don't forget that the UK happily sold out Czechoslovakia to the Nazis in order to try and have peace.  King George VI and the future QM were supportive of that deal.  And I don't say that to make Edward seem better, only to point out that history can be very complicated, and what people did before the war often didn't look great after the war.     

[AimingforYoko]

On 12/13/2017 at 11:20 AM, PeterPirate said:

I hate Nazis.

Illinois Nazis?

I know the Venn diagram of The Crown watchers and Preacher watchers is sliver thin, but Pip Torrens (Tommy Lascelles) is a hoot as Herr Starr on Preacher.

Edited December 21, 2017 by AimingforYoko

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

One thing I find surprising, in light of this episode, is the Queen's decision to name her youngest son Edward.

Prince Andrew's fourth name is Edward. (And Harry's fourth name is David. And Princess Margaret's son's name is David.) I think the queen had some personal fondness for the DoW despite everything. 

[mbutterfly]

On 12/18/2017 at 5:18 PM, roamyn said:

What do u mean?  Do you mean in the "he's a hick" term?  Or another way.

Looking back now, he's one of the most respected clergymen, even if I don't fully believe in his views.  But I can't deny he's an honest, moral person.

However, I wasn't born then, so my viewpoint if Rev. Graham is from the 70 s and on, not early in his career.

I just don't get the pearl clutching - esp by the DoE.

I also believe he was respected though my religious views are quite different. Still he wouldn't have been considered the head of a church. I don't think he would have expected to be considered in that way. 

[CousinAmy]

4 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Prince Andrew's fourth name is Edward. (And Harry's fourth name is David. And Princess Margaret's son's name is David.) I think the queen had some personal fondness for the DoW despite everything. 

They used the same names over and over. Charles's name is Charles Philip Arthur George. Or some sequence that Bride Diana messed up! They do it to honor the lineage. I know Americans were unimpressed when little Prince George was named, but it's a very honorable name in the U.K. (My high school friend named her second child David, the same name as her teenage crysh. That made me go hmm.)

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Prince Andrew's fourth name is Edward. (And Harry's fourth name is David. And Princess Margaret's son's name is David.) I think the queen had some personal fondness for the DoW despite everything. 

 

4 hours ago, CousinAmy said:

They used the same names over and over. Charles's name is Charles Philip Arthur George. Or some sequence that Bride Diana messed up! They do it to honor the lineage. I know Americans were unimpressed when little Prince George was named, but it's a very honorable name in the U.K. (My high school friend named her second child David, the same name as her teenage crysh. That made me go hmm.)

I agree with Cousnamy.  

There are not many suitable name for royals. There have been seven kings named Edward (the last was Elizabeth's great-great-grandfather, Edward VII)  and David is the patron saint of Wales.

Actually it was raised Charle's name at the time raised eyebrows for it was regarded unlucky for a king.

[roamyn]

Andrew is not a British royal name, tho it does honor a distant relative (Prince A of G&D was the cousin of KGV) and, of course, the DoE's father.

Eugenia is the same.  Very uncommon in England, but a very distant relative, and a former Queen of Spain.

I wonder if Prince John's birth raised a few eyebrows when he was named?

[Roseanna]

On ‎21‎.‎12‎.‎2017 at 2:05 PM, roamyn said:

Andrew is not a British royal name

Edward VIII's Christian names were Edward Albert Christian George Andrew Patrick David. The four last names were given according to the patron saints of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales. 

[Eureka]

On 12/18/2017 at 0:00 AM, madam magpie said:

Claire Foy really is fantastic in this, isn’t she? She says so much with just small expressions and those great eyes.

It was during this episode that I suddenly thought, what if Olivia Coleman is not as good?

[Ceindreadh]

5 hours ago, Eureka said:

It was during this episode that I suddenly thought, what if Olivia Coleman is not as good?

 I don't think that will be a problem.  Olivia Coleman is more than good enough to take over. 

[CousinAmy]

Just now, Ceindreadh said:

 I don't think that will be a problem.  Olivia Coleman is more than good enough to take over. 

Here I was wondering how Jenna Coleman would play both Elizabeth and Victoria! Good thing we have Google now.

The next Elizabeth will be in her 40s, no longer having children, and I imagine her life will be very different. There's only so much Claire Foy can do with cosmetics; she still looks dewy-fresh even with make-up on. I think a change is a good idea.

[Clanstarling]

19 minutes ago, CousinAmy said:

The next Elizabeth will be in her 40s, no longer having children, and I imagine her life will be very different. There's only so much Claire Foy can do with cosmetics; she still looks dewy-fresh even with make-up on. I think a change is a good idea.

Any word on who'll be playing the others?

I wasn't familiar with Olivia Coleman, but just watched the first episode of The Night Manager, and despite the accent she uses in it, I was all on board. I can totally see her as the Queen.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Clanstarling

[dubbel zout]

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Any word on who'll be playing the others?

Not yet. I'm dying to know who they get for Philip.

I hope the more minor characters stay the same. Greg Wise is so good as Dickie, and Pip Torrens as the Hammer is irreplaceable.

[Lillith]

On 12/19/2017 at 5:58 PM, Clanstarling said:

To be fair to Phillip, he fought against the Nazis, and so far as I know, despite his many jackass white privilege comments, didn't sympathize or show sympathy. His sister's marriage had nothing to do with Phillip. Whereas, Uncle Nazi's sympathies are all about Edward.

Not to mention in WWII - rebranded as internment camps for the Japanese.

Sorry to be a pedant but there were different types of camps. Every country had Internment camps for civilians of enemy countries. Of course in the U.S. our internment of U.S. citizens of Japanese decent was unlawful but done anyway. Then of course P.O.W. camps. Germany however also had the concentration camps and the death camps. And the Soviets had gulags.  The internment camps and P.O.W. camps were mostly run in a civilized manner (Japan being the exception) and visited by the Red Cross. Concentration camps and Death camps were the universally a level of Hell on earth. What circle depended on who was running it. 

To circle in with Uncle Nazi, I can't fault him for not being alarmed by the early version of concentration camps in general, but there were plenty of warning signs with the rhetoric against Jews and the removal of basic human rights and free speech. I don't know if Edward was an anti-Semite but I recall reading that Wallace was. 

I liked the portrayal of Billy Graham who (unlike his jerk son) has been a decent man, I recall no scandals or truly bad press about him. 

[Clanstarling]

46 minutes ago, Lillith said:

Sorry to be a pedant but there were different types of camps. Every country had Internment camps for civilians of enemy countries. Of course in the U.S. our internment of U.S. citizens of Japanese decent was unlawful but done anyway. Then of course P.O.W. camps. Germany however also had the concentration camps and the death camps. And the Soviets had gulags.  The internment camps and P.O.W. camps were mostly run in a civilized manner (Japan being the exception) and visited by the Red Cross. Concentration camps and Death camps were the universally a level of Hell on earth. What circle depended on who was running it. 

To circle in with Uncle Nazi, I can't fault him for not being alarmed by the early version of concentration camps in general, but there were plenty of warning signs with the rhetoric against Jews and the removal of basic human rights and free speech. I don't know if Edward was an anti-Semite but I recall reading that Wallace was. 

I liked the portrayal of Billy Graham who (unlike his jerk son) has been a decent man, I recall no scandals or truly bad press about him. 

Obviously, the German concentration camps were infinitely more terrible versions than the others you mention. However, concentration and internment camps are, by definition, pretty much the same thing:

• concentration camp: a camp where persons (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, or refugees) are detained or confined
• Internment:  to confine or impound especially during a war \intern enemy aliens

To me, it doesn't matter what you call the place in which a government encloses the people they round up and and imprison against their will. They're all a level of Hell on Earth. Were the German camps more terrible? Of course. That goes without saying. I had two family members who survived them.

That doesn't diminish the suffering of our own citizens being forcibly incarcerated by their own government.  And what is "civilized" often depends on which end of it you're experiencing. The Red Cross, by the way, was fooled by the Germans. So their visits to other camps don't really hold a lot of confidence for me.

By the way, the Supreme Court upheld the legality of Executive Order 9066 (forcing all Japanese-Americans, regardless of loyalty or citizenship). So technically it was legal.

But we do agree that the earlier versions that Uncle Nazi saw was unlikely to make him connect the dots to extermination camps.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Kaiju Ballet]

On 12/20/2017 at 9:05 PM, AimingforYoko said:

I know the Venn diagram of The Crown watchers and Preacher watchers is sliver thin, but Pip Torrens (Tommy Lascelles) is a hoot as Herr Starr on Preacher.

My BF and I are in that sliver. One of the (many) great joys of watching the Crown was learning several episodes in that the actor for Tommy Lascelles is the same as for Herr Starr. I wouldn't have guessed otherwise--Pip Torrens is THAT good. Both are standout, mesmerizing characters.

As for Uncle Nazi, I just rewatched the S1 episode where he comes to London to see his mother. I had no awareness of his Nazi past when I first watched it. It plays completely differently, now that we know of Tommy, "Cookie" and his mother's knowledge of what he's done. In that episode, he's almost a sympathetic figure, in that people seem to blame his abdication for George's death. And his surprise that Elizabeth would ask him for advice is now even more resonant, in that he would have traded her life just so his awful wife could be a puppet Queen to his puppet King. It grossed me out when he tells Winston that he's Elizabeth's favorite uncle.

I really liked the Billy Graham discussion, and that insight into Elizabeth's interior life in her struggle to be a good Christian. She wasn't going to let being the Head of the Church of England get in the way of her literal soulsearching!

[pasdetrois]

I'm glad we got an in-depth look at David and the Nazis. As a reminder of that loathsome part of his life. And a chance to see Alex Jennings again.

Given how many rich stories there are, I'm disappointed they spent so much time on Billy Graham.

I've been wondering where all the ladies-in-waiting are, especially during outings. And with the exception of the episode about Charles' schooling, he and Anne have been almost invisible in this series.

[txhorns79]

Quote

To circle in with Uncle Nazi, I can't fault him for not being alarmed by the early version of concentration camps in general, but there were plenty of warning signs with the rhetoric against Jews and the removal of basic human rights and free speech. I don't know if Edward was an anti-Semite but I recall reading that Wallace was. 

I'd just say that the US government similarly wasn't concerned enough about what was happening with the Jews in Germany to do much of anything to facilitate their escape.  That was due in part to anti-Semites in the State Department, but obviously, the upper levels could have done more had they wanted to do so.  I just feel as though a lot is being put on Edward when the English government and Royals weren't exactly raising the alarm, and assented to the Germans invading Czechoslovakia in order to ensure peace could be maintained.   

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I'd just say that the US government similarly wasn't concerned enough about what was happening with the Jews in Germany to do much of anything to facilitate their escape.  That was due in part to anti-Semites in the State Department, but obviously, the upper levels could have done more had they wanted to do so.  I just feel as though a lot is being put on Edward when the English government and Royals weren't exactly raising the alarm, and assented to the Germans invading Czechoslovakia in order to ensure peace could be maintained.   

I agree with this.  My first post for this show turned out to be the first post for this episode.  I went back and edited it several times to make it as diplomatic as possible because I knew there are different opinions on David.  

Just like the British government consists of The Efficient and The Dignified, this episode in particular has to be viewed using both The Visceral and The Intellectual.  Viscerally, we enjoy seeing David get his comeuppance for having gotten-along-with-slash-collaborated-with the Nazis.  But when we take the time to look at things from all sides, we see that things were very complicated.   Appeasement was the prevailing mood in Britain at the time.  George VI had his health issues and Elizabeth was only 13 when the war started.  Why shouldn't David at least contemplate the idea that he might be needed by his home country again?  

To be sure, this episode is awesome.  But many of the elements are fabrications, conjectures, or rely on facts that were only learned many years later. 

Edited January 3, 2018 by PeterPirate

[CousinAmy]

There were demonstrations and protests in New York City by Jewish workers, Socialists and Communists about what was happening to Jews in Germany by 1938, but I don't think it bothered anyone else at the time. I found articles in the archives of newspapers like The Daily Worker, but very little in the mainstream English-language papers. As long as the threat was just to Jews, who cared?

There were fawning articles about Mussolini and Hitler at the same time. 

Edited January 3, 2018 by CousinAmy

[Clanstarling]

17 hours ago, CousinAmy said:

There were demonstrations and protests in New York City by Jewish workers, Socialists and Communists about what was happening to Jews in Germany by 1938, but I don't think it bothered anyone else at the time. I found articles in the archives of newspapers like The Daily Worker, but very little in the mainstream English-language papers. As long as the threat was just to Jews, who cared?

There were fawning articles about Mussolini and Hitler at the same time. 

There was, very much, an "America First" attitude in the nation prior to Pearl Harbor. Which is why the only support FDR was able to give Britain was through the Lend-Lease program. We even rejected a boatload* of people who had visas - but the entry dates were months or years away. Most of those people ended up back in Europe and died in the camps.

*by boatload, I mean a literal boat...load. They were all on the same boat. 

Edited January 3, 2018 by Clanstarling
to clarify a statement

[CeeBeeGee]

On 12/9/2017 at 2:41 AM, Bama said:

I think QE has a bit of a crush on Ole Billy.

I definitely thought that as well! She seemed to be turning on the charm in her own regal way.

 

On 12/9/2017 at 10:14 PM, Peace 47 said:

I’m so glad that they explored Edward’s Nazi collusion.  They really have done a great job with this character in the show.  He is so slick and smooth that you can see why he is popular amongst his society clique, continually saying anything to put himself in the best light (or in a victim light).  His letters to his wife/ those who knew him best (like Tommy) reveal his true character (or lack thereof), though.  When the rest of his family made real wartime sacrifice (not to mention the horrible, devastating toll of the war on his people at large), for him to have thrown in his hat with the Nazis is beyond the pale.  Those real pictures of him at the end playing nice with Hitler made me well up a bit.  It’s so horrible.

Those pictures. Oh my God.

 

On 12/9/2017 at 11:18 PM, PinkRibbons said:

I keep thinking wondering what exactly Windsor thought would happen to his brother+family if overthrown. For me personally it conjures up horrific images from a basement in 1918 with Margaret and Elizabeth instead of the four Romanov girls. Or if we wanted to be specifically British, of two Princesses in a Tower.

Like any Jew born in the last century, I've grown up with the holocaust haunting a corner of my mind. I can't hear any story without the very clear knowledge that but for an accident of time and place, it would have been me. Me that died in any number of horrific ways. Me that starved and slaved and lost everyone I ever loved. I expect I'm projecting, but I watched the dawning horror on Elizabeth thinking she was imagining how close she and her family came to a terrible end at the willing hands of a member of their own family.

I wouldn't exactly expect the Nazis to consider how in the civilized modern world, one no longer kills off "extra" Royals.
 

Both Elizabeth and Philip were related to the Romanovs and I imagine the fate of those beautiful children was very much on their mind when the revelations about David came to light. I mean, JFC dude--they BOMBED Buckingham Palace! More than once! Your own young nieces, still just teenagers, could've been murdered by your "friends."

 

On 12/10/2017 at 11:15 AM, wlk68 said:

Best episode of S2 so far. I knew about all of this prior to viewing it but damn, they did a good job. Pulled no punches. And then to throw in all the real photos at the end. Chilling to imagine how WWII could've gone down if he hadn't abdicated. Makes my blood run cold.

 

On 12/11/2017 at 9:06 AM, Ina123 said:

I loved that response. I get chills when I think, "what if there had never been a Wallis Simpson?"

David would've been a dreadful King. His father knew that--it's a famous quotation, but George V called it. He said David wouldn't last a year and he prayed that nothing would come between Bertie, Elizabeth and the throne.

 

On 12/13/2017 at 11:57 AM, Nanna said:

Me, excitedly to my husband last night: “The Duke of Windsor is back in this episode, I’m O happy!” That actor really nails the part. I think he probably believed his own story about wanting peace and whatever by this point, and also his resentment against his family was big enough to justify siding with the enemy to himself, I guess. I also liked Philip this episode, which is a first - they kind of seemed like a good couple here, with all their differences.

Also, the funniest part was when the duke of Windsor REALLY didn’t like the idea of being associated with TRADE. For the upper classes trade is the worst and most vulgar. A great detail - and hilarious that he thought he’d be better at the diplomacy that consisted of entertaing. So basically doing the same thing he did anyway, but now with a “purpose”. Boy, what a shallow human being.

Philip was good in this episode--I liked his snarking when Adeane was talking with the Queen and I loved his moment with her at the end.

The DoW's sanctimonious crap about "Ich dien" made me want to vomit.

 

On 12/21/2017 at 7:05 AM, roamyn said:

Andrew is not a British royal name, tho it does honor a distant relative (Prince A of G&D was the cousin of KGV) and, of course, the DoE's father.

Eugenia is the same.  Very uncommon in England, but a very distant relative, and a former Queen of Spain.

I wonder if Prince John's birth raised a few eyebrows when he was named?

It did indeed. John is considered bad luck for the BRF (after the disastrous reign of King John)--Diana wanted to name Harry John after her father but that was vetoed. And of course poor Prince John's short life just reinforced the notion.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I keep thinking wondering what exactly Windsor thought would happen to his brother+family if overthrown. For me personally it conjures up horrific images from a basement in 1918 with Margaret and Elizabeth instead of the four Romanov girls. Or if we wanted to be specifically British, of two Princesses in a Tower.

While David obviously consorted with Nazis in the late 30s, and there are questions about his actions during the war, there's nothing to suggest he ever intended that his brother or family be murdered so he could take back power.  I feel silly defending David, since I think he acted pretty poorly, but I think it needs to be remembered that the show often mixes fact and fiction for the sake of drama.  David did appear to have pro-German sympathies and did meet with Hitler in '37, but it's a long way from that to David actively or even passively conspiring with the Germans to overthrow the monarchy.