Avengers: Infinity War (2018)

[stealinghome]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

I think they have already solved how to get Tony back to Earth. Didn't Nebula call someone and told them to meet her on Titan just before she left Thanos' ship? So it probably won't take long till they are all back together.

I thought she called Quill and Drax, who were still in Knowhere. Did I get that one wrong? Of course, I suppose Thanos didn’t dust the ships she and (half the) Guardians took to Titan, so Nebula and Tony can zip to Earth in one of those if nothing else.

34 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Isn't that how it should be for a huge cross over like this? They had 16 solo movies to do character development and exploration.  I'm fine with the big cross over being mostly action. The fact that they got as many character moments as they did is impressive. 

I would agree, except that I thought both previous Avengers movies managed to do better/more character work while still having the big explosions. (I realize I’m coming off as a Whedon apologist here and I’m really not! I do think both A1 and A2 are flawed movies. I just wasn’t bowled over by Infinity War.)

To be fair, I do think part of what hindered the writers here was just having so many discrete plot lines happening in different corners of the universe. It’s not even the number of characters as much as all the groups of 2-3 and the location-hopping. Hopefully if Part 2 does get the original recipe band back together—and we don’t see the dusted people on an alternate plane or some such, having their own adventures/fights—that solves some of the structural problem.

[Smad]

1 hour ago, stealinghome said:

I thought she called Quill and Drax, who were still in Knowhere. Did I get that one wrong? Of course, I suppose Thanos didn’t dust the ships she and (half the) Guardians took to Titan, so Nebula and Tony can zip to Earth in one of those if nothing else.

I don't think so, unless it's another screw up by the writers. The Guardians infiltrated the ship Spidy, Tony and Strange were on. That ship was on an auto-pilot course to Titan. But maybe she did call them and that's how they crossed paths with the ship in the first place.

[scarynikki12]

Nebula called Mantis to meet her on Titan.  That's how the Guardians knew to go there (as opposed to Earth for the remaining stones).

[Smad]

21 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

Nebula called Mantis to meet her on Titan.  That's how the Guardians knew to go there (as opposed to Earth for the remaining stones).

Thanks. I wasn't sure who she called. Only saw the movie once.

[Raja]

2 hours ago, stealinghome said:

I thought she called Quill and Drax, who were still in Knowhere. Did I get that one wrong? Of course, I suppose Thanos didn’t dust the ships she and (half the) Guardians took to Titan, so Nebula and Tony can zip to Earth in one of those if nothing else.

I would agree, except that I thought both previous Avengers movies managed to do better/more character work while still having the big explosions. (I realize I’m coming off as a Whedon apologist here and I’m really not! I do think both A1 and A2 are flawed movies. I just wasn’t bowled over by Infinity War.)

To be fair, I do think part of what hindered the writers here was just having so many discrete plot lines happening in different corners of the universe. It’s not even the number of characters as much as all the groups of 2-3 and the location-hopping. Hopefully if Part 2 does get the original recipe band back together—and we don’t see the dusted people on an alternate plane or some such, having their own adventures/fights—that solves some of the structural problem.

I think only living beings were effected by the snapture.

 In any case Tony Stark, the man who built his tiny arc reactor and Mark I armor in  an Afghan cave is there. With parts of two starships he can use his superpower and do a Flight of the Phoenix to get a working vessel for Nebula to fly them to earth with if both were damaged 

Edited May 13, 2018 by Raja

[anna0852]

The Guardians came aboard Ebony's ship once it was on Titan, so they arrive on the planet in their own ship, the Milano. They went there after Nebula called Mantis and said to meet her on that planet which is when they found Tony/Parker/Strange. Nebula flew in later in her own ship. There are now 2 ships for Tony/Nebula to use to return to earth.

[Wynterwolf]

Karen Gillan mentioned in an interview that her character bonded with someone unusual (but that she couldn't say who because it was a spoiler?)  But I can see Nebula and Tony bonding big time, for a lot of reasons (being the only two left on Titan, various trauma, GADGETS!! SOOOOO MANY GADGETS!!!).  Possibly seeing them bond is something I can be excited to see going forward (and a lot of the actors made comments about things that didn't end up in IW, so I'm hoping we'll see at least some of those things in A4).  

[Kel Varnsen]

27 minutes ago, anna0852 said:

The Guardians came aboard Ebony's ship once it was on Titan, so they arrive on the planet in their own ship, the Milano. They went there after Nebula called Mantis and said to meet her on that planet which is when they found Tony/Parker/Strange. Nebula flew in later in her own ship. There are now 2 ships for Tony/Nebula to use to return to earth.

Just a point of clarification, the Milano was destroyed when they crash landed in Guardians 2. The ship they were flying around in was Yondu's.

[anna0852]

I thought the exterior shot looked like the Milano or something similar. Not that warehouse looking thing they were in at the end of G2.

[Wynterwolf]

James Gunn said the ship's name was the Benatar (for Pat Benatar... :-D).  

[HunterHunted]

6 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

James Gunn said the ship's name was the Benatar (for Pat Benatar... :-D).  

Of course.

Where would the Guardians be if Peter Quill didn't have an exhaustive knowledge and memory of American pop culture. 

[anna0852]

My apologies. From the exterior, the Benatar looks very similar to the Milano. At least to my eyes.

[GHScorpiosRule]

So. I saw this yesterday. And I don't know what it is, maybe it's because I also watch superhero shows, but I'm so fucking sick and tired of the villains winning all the fucking time, that the ending just fucking pissed me off. And of course, knowing that there's a sequel to Spiderman, and that we're getting a Blank Panther II, the dusting away of Peter and T'Challa didn't shock or upset me. Because once the team defeats Thanos, they'll get back that green stone and undo everything, like Thanos undid Wanda destroying the stone in Vision's head.

Now many of you know I LOOOOVE Tom Hiddleston, and it was his portrayal of Loki that actually made me like Loki, except when he strolled into Germany and told everyone they wanted to be subjugated. I did GASP and inside cry: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! when Thanos killed him. But at least he died actually trying to save Thor. And I also GASPED and cried inside NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! when that fucktoid killed Heimdall. I was fucking PISSED for the first 20 minutes of this movie.

And what the fuck was up with Hulk refusing to come out? I have to check, but wasn't the poster for this movie, showing Hulk on our right hand side as Steve lead the charge?

Yes, there were moments, many moments where I laughed, as did the people in the theater with me. But I'll admit, I was angry and irritated at how easily our heroes were defeated again and again, except for one or two moments where we won.

At least Steve is still alive.

This may be unpopular, and I don't give any bluedilly fucks if it is a cheat, but I want EVERYONE TO COME BACK. Soaps do it, prime time shows do it.  Hell, even Comics do it. They killed off Supes; brought him back; sorta killed Bats; brought him back; killed of Cap'n America. Brought him back.

The only person who I was hoping wouldn't get killed or dusted, and I was on the edge of my seat, heart pounding was Okoye.

And I'll be sitting here in my corner table for one, fingers in my ears singing "lalalalalalalalalalalalalalaaaaaaaa" to anyone who tries to convince me that Loki is gone; Heimdall is gone. LALALALALALALALALALAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I CAN'T HEARRRRRRR YOUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!LALALALALALALALALALAAA.

ETA:  I didn't realize I'd bought the ticket for 3D and was wondering why the movie was so blurry. Then when Thanos was monologuing to Strange? I walked over to the recycled bin and grabbed the glasses. Idiot usher knew where I was going and what I was seeing and didn't give me the fucking glasses.

Edited May 20, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[Raja]

It wasn't the first time that Marvel inserted intentionally false images into their advertising campaigns 

[Sakura12]

Idris Elba wanted out that's why Heimdall is gone. I don't think he was a planned death before that. 

I'm also one that doesn't need my heroes to die to make a movie interesting. TV/movie deaths have become overdone imo. I'm more shocked when they live at the end of the movie/episode. I don't watch my entertainment to watch characters I like die. Yet that's complaints I hear that Marvel doesn't take risks because no one stays dead. What Marvel created was one giant risk and it paid off for us and even more for their salaries. Worrying whether or not one of my favorite characters are going to die takes away my enjoyment. 

I saw this movie again last night and finally the theater lightened the screen so I could see what was happening in the dark scenes, the first time I watched I barely saw what happened in the beginning with Thanos, Thor and Loki. Peter's death got to me this time when it didn't the first time. I think he lasted longer because of his ability to heal faster, his body kept trying to repair the damage until it couldn't. I'm guessing Nebula will fly Tony back to Earth she doesn't have anywhere else to go and she needs to let poor Rocket know what happened to the rest of his team. The poor rabbit lost everyone. 

We better see him in the next movie working with Shuri, Bruce and Tony on Team Science/inventors. I'm going to assume Shuri lived is now the Queen of Wakanda. 

[Wynterwolf]

24 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I'm also one that doesn't need my heroes to die to make a movie interesting. TV/movie deaths have become overdone imo. I'm more shocked when they live at the end of the movie/episode. I don't watch my entertainment to watch characters I like die. Yet that's complaints I hear that Marvel doesn't take risks because no one stays dead. What Marvel created was one giant risk and it paid off for us and even more for their salaries. Worrying whether or not one of my favorite characters are going to die takes away my enjoyment.

This times infinity... and beyond.  It's actually been overused so much in various entertainment that it's practically become the definition of lazy storytelling... can't think of another way to create interesting drama?  KILL EVERYONE.  **yawn**  Dying is easy, living is hard.  

And... it's also kind of an unwritten rule of superhero comics, isn't it?  Even if they die, they don't stay dead.  Loki and Heimdall are hanging out in Valhalla, until Loki decides he wants to be reborn into the MCU.  I think Heimdall wants to enjoy his retirement.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

I didn't know that Idris wanted out. I'm still pissed that they felt they had to kill him, though.

I won't lie, the funniest moments were with Thor and Rocket; and I know it's shallow of me, but I'm glad that Thor got another eye to replace the one he lost. And I thoroughly laughed at Star Lord attempting to speak like Thor.

Juvenile of me, I laughed when Tony called Star Lord a dipshit; and when whoever asked Star Lord what Master he served and he was so frustrated and threw out, what? Like Jesus?

But I was more pissed off and angry and irritated than laughing.

I swooned when Steve showed up.

Another awww and laugh out loud moment:

Groot: "I am Grrroooot."

Steve: "I am Steve Rogers." with a hand over his chest.

Siiiiiiiiiigh.

And not for nothing, but it seemed like our heroes who didn't have gadgets or super costumes with tech, were better equipped and more handily were able to kick ass. Like Okuye and Natasha.

I still find that the director or writers couldn't manage to let Thor and Spidey have a scene together since Hemsworth and Holland were in that whale movie that preceded Moby Dick a few years ago. The name is escaping me, but I believe it was a Ron Howard film.

What?

[Sakura12]

I still loved Thor introducing Groot as his friend tree. I missed a scene where Bruce asked Thor how he got his eye back and Thor responding a rabbit gave it to him and Bruce just nodding because he's seen a bunch of crazy shit and it doesn't faze him anymore. I also kind of wished Rocket actually saw a raccoon running around. I know it was a darker more serious movie but I sill appreciate that Marvel has it's humorous moments. You need the light with the dark otherwise what's the point. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

24 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I still loved Thor introducing Groot as his friend tree. 

Me too. And that Thor understood what Groot was saying every time he said "I am Groot." Meaning, it wasn't just literally "I am Groot," but each one he was saying something different, and Thor was the only one who could "understand" Groot and translate it for the others.

Edited May 14, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[morakot]

On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 7:10 PM, HunterHunted said:

I think any Pepper ice cream has to incorporate strawberries because she's allergic to them and it's in keeping with Tony's obliviousness.

I make a lovely strawberry ice cream with black pepper and balsamic vinegar (for the snarky bite?).

[Sakura12]

It's interesting to know that Groot is the language as well as his name. It seems the rest of the Guardians learned to speak Groot since when they told him to stop with his video game he said "I amm Grooot" and they all reacted to his swearing. If Groot was an elective on Asgard was Groot's planet part of the nine realms? 

[festivus]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I swooned when Steve showed up.

I think everyone did. ;)

[Smad]

3 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I'm also one that doesn't need my heroes to die to make a movie interesting. TV/movie deaths have become overdone imo. I'm more shocked when they live at the end of the movie/episode. I don't watch my entertainment to watch characters I like die. Yet that's complaints I hear that Marvel doesn't take risks because no one stays dead. What Marvel created was one giant risk and it paid off for us and even more for their salaries. Worrying whether or not one of my favorite characters are going to die takes away my enjoyment.

I think a lot of people have just gone lazy creatively. Stakes don't equal death. Quite the opposite IMO. What creates stakes is putting characters in a situation that seems futile. The tension comes from whether or not they make it out and what possibly comes after. Stakes are even higher the more is at stake (pardon the pun). That doesn't mean a character has to always win but it has to mean their death is not done for shock value or simply to spur on another character. The hero can succeed against all odds either because of their physical or mental prowess. Or they can fail despite doing their best. Just write believable situations with believable characters. Good characters get people attached to them so they are more attached to the story. So when the stakes are high, people will be engaged in the story.

That's one of my problems with this movie (as it was with CW for example). There is so much stupid behavior just to kill someone off, get to the next story piece or so that they can get to the action scenes they want, that I'm just annoyed. And I'm angry when a character is 'out of character' (Gamora) or their worst traits so enhanced that it boggles the mind (Quill). And poor T'Challa is the worst king ever because all those men and women that died on the battle field (for a freaking Android) before the finger snap might just stay dead even when it's all undone. Half the freaking Galaxy vs one individual (in a lot of the situations in the movie), as Black Widow would say 'there is no math here'. And when this story beat is repeated so often in one move, it's just beyond annoying.

3 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I'm guessing Nebula will fly Tony back to Earth she doesn't have anywhere else to go and she needs to let poor Rocket know what happened to the rest of his team. The poor rabbit lost everyone.

It's still crazy to me that Rocket and Groot made it to Earth but Quill didn't. When it's all said and done, and should he still be alive, I hope someone goes to Grandpa Quill and gives him peace of mind. Since Quill doesn't care one bit. That poor man must have gone through hell. Daughter dies and the grandchild he promised his dying daughter that he would take care of just disappears without a trace.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Smad

[Apprentice79]

46 minutes ago, Smad said:

That's one of my problems with this movie (as it was with CW for example). There is so much stupid behavior just to kill someone off, get to the next story piece or so that they can get to the action scenes they want, that I'm just annoyed. And I'm angry when a character is 'out of character' (Gamora) or their worst traits so enhanced that it boggles the mind (Quill). And poor T'Challa is the worst king ever because all those men and women that died on the battle field (for a freaking Android) before the finger snap might just stay dead even when it's all undone. Half the freaking Galaxy vs one individual (in a lot of the situations in the movie), as Black Widow would say 'there is no math here'. And when this story beat is repeated so often in one move, it's just beyond annoying.

T'Challa has gone from one extreme to the other. He went from ignoring the world to now wanting to save everybody.  Sacrificing Wakanda, for an android, was infuriating. He leads by his emotions and not his head.  I do think that is his Achilles heel. It goes back to what his dad said to him in the astral plane, it is hard for a good man to be king.  Being a king will mean that you will make decisions that people may judge to be cruel or unfair.  T'Chakka made the decision to sacrifice his brother and nephew, for the good of his country.  It came back to haunt T'Challa, in the form of Killmonger. Even when he fought Killmonger, he held back from killing him, when he had the chance because he felt guilty about what had happened to him.  

Edited May 14, 2018 by Apprentice79

[benteen]

32 minutes ago, Apprentice79 said:

T'Challa has gone from one extreme to the other. He went from ignoring the world to now wanting to save everybody.  Sacrificing Wakanda, for an android, was infuriating. He leads by his emotions and not his head.  I do think that is his Achilles heel. It goes back to what his dad said to him in the astral plane, it is hard for a good man to be king.  Being a king will mean that you will make decisions that people may judge to be cruel or unfair.  T'Chakka made the decision to sacrifice his brother and nephew, for the good of his country.  It came back to haunt T'Challa, in the form of Killmonger. Even when he fought Killmonger, he held back from killing him, when he had the chance because he felt guilty about what had happened to him.  

 

Yes, this is something that bothers me about the film.  The Avengers were willing to risk the lives of half the galaxy because they wouldn't make the hard call with Vision, who was willing to sacrifice himself.  Even if they didn't know Thanos could turn back time, at the very least they were willing to sacrifice a bunch of Wakandan soldiers to avoid getting their own hands dirty.  The only way that decision is going to be justified is if Vision's programming is used to defeat Thanos in the long run, which is what Strange is likely playing at.  But the Earth Avengers had no way of knowing this.

Edited May 14, 2018 by benteen

[blueray]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

.

It's still crazy to me that Rocket and Groot made it to Earth but Quill didn't. When it's all said and done, and should he still be alive, I hope someone goes to Grandpa Quill and gives him peace of mind. Since Quill doesn't care one bit. That poor man must have gone through hell. Daughter dies and the grandchild he promised his dying daughter that he would take care of just disappears without a trace.

This bothers me too. Not so much in this movie as Quill had a lot going on. But why hasn't he ever returned to earth. He had his own ships for years before the first Guardian movie. I get that he wouldn't' want to stay as his life is in space. He should have at least let his grandfather know he's okay, even if he wasn't ever close to him.  I did like that he interacted with humans from Earth. Probably was the first time since he left that he did.

[VCRTracking]

24 minutes ago, benteen said:

53 minutes ago, Apprentice79 said:

T'Challa has gone from one extreme to the other. He went from ignoring the world to now wanting to save everybody.  Sacrificing Wakanda, for an android, was infuriating. He leads by his emotions and not his head.  I do think that is his Achilles heel. It goes back to what his dad said to him in the astral plane, it is hard for a good man to be king.  Being a king will mean that you will make decisions that people may judge to be cruel or unfair.  T'Chakka made the decision to sacrifice his brother and nephew, for the good of his country.  It came back to haunt T'Challa, in the form of Killmonger. Even when he fought Killmonger, he held back from killing him, when he had the chance because he felt guilty about what had happened to him.  

 

Yes, this is something that bothers me about the film.  The Avengers were willing to risk the lives of half the galaxy because they wouldn't make the hard call with Vision, who was willing to sacrifice himself.  Even if they didn't know Thanos could turn back time, at the very least they were willing to sacrifice a bunch of Wakandan soldiers to avoid getting their own hands dirty.  The only way that decision is going to be justified is if Vision's programming is used to defeat Thanos in the long run, which is what Strange is likely playing at.  But the Earth Avengers had no way of knowing this.

I don't think the mindset of Steve and T'Challa was "I'm going to sacrifice the country of Wakanda and it's warriors to save this one android" the thinking was "Wakanda has the smartest person on the planet and the technology to safely remove the Mind Stone without killing him" and then "Those two guys who attacked him before are here and they brought a huge army? Fuck."  They didn't reckon an entire alien army was coming because they weren't seen when the big donut ship was above New York. Ultimately they filmmakers wanted a big battle scene between the Wakandan warriors and an alien army to justify the "war" part of the title(as people have joked Civil War should have been called Captain America: Airport Fight) Maybe it would have been better to have the Soul Stone be in Wakanda like some people theorized. Made the Avengers seem less selfish and more selfless helping the Wakandans defend their homeland.

[mattie0808]

One thing I find interesting about the discussions of this movie...everyone has a take on whether or not Vision should have been sacrificed from the jump rather than take the risk of trying to remove and destroy the mind stone without killing him -- but I don't see anyone, anywhere, dealing with Strange and Wong's immediate and flat-out refusal to destroy the time stone when Tony suggests it back in NYC. Yes, I know they swore an oath, but nobody's giving up their own life to ensure there's no way for Thanos to get all six stones if they just destroy that one. And, at that point, we didn't have Strange looking into all possible futures to see the one way it all works out (so there wouldn't be the assumption that the time stone is the singular key to ultimately defeating Thanos after he wins in the short term).

Whether T'Challa was right or not, was Strange right? Ethically, not in an ends-justify-the-means kind of way because it's later clear they will need the time stone to undo all this? Why is his oath on par with Vision's life? Why is Wong's oath to guard the sanctum more important than him helping Bruce and the others?

If I'm missing something -- which is more than perfectly possible! -- or if there's an argument raging on this somewhere, I'm happy to be pointed in the right direction.

And as far as ends-justify-the-means storylines go, I kind of suspect that Shuri got far enough along with Vision for whatever's on her computer to be of some use to our heroes in A4, but I guess we'll see about that...

[blueray]

I agree, that Dr. Strange should have let Tony destroy it. At the time he was following the fact that he swear an oath to protect it and to be fair put up a good fight, until he realized he had to give it up for reasons unknown now.  Of course if he did let Tony destroy it there wouldn't be much of a movie.

[Fukui San]

1 minute ago, blueray said:

I agree, that Dr. Strange should have let Tony destroy it. At the time he was following the fact that he swear an oath to protect it and to be fair put up a good fight, until he realized he had to give it up for reasons unknown now.  Of course if he did let Tony destroy it there wouldn't be much of a movie.

Deleted scene from Infinity War:

[Smad]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

Yes, this is something that bothers me about the film.  The Avengers were willing to risk the lives of half the galaxy because they wouldn't make the hard call with Vision, who was willing to sacrifice himself.  Even if they didn't know Thanos could turn back time, at the very least they were willing to sacrifice a bunch of Wakandan soldiers to avoid getting their own hands dirty.  The only way that decision is going to be justified is if Vision's programming is used to defeat Thanos in the long run, which is what Strange is likely playing at.  But the Earth Avengers had no way of knowing this.

I think it's very much in line at least with Team Cap. Steve will move heaven and earth to save individuals he knows. But he doesn't give a crap about those he doesn't. He was willing to save Bucky and ruined a lot of lives in the process. It doesn't gel with the Cap from AoU. But it's good continuation in IW with the Cap from CW. But why T'Challa would risk all of his people, yeah I don't get it.

 

59 minutes ago, blueray said:

This bothers me too. Not so much in this movie as Quill had a lot going on. But why hasn't he ever returned to earth. He had his own ships for years before the first Guardian movie. I get that he wouldn't' want to stay as his life is in space. He should have at least let his grandfather know he's okay, even if he wasn't ever close to him.  I did like that he interacted with humans from Earth. Probably was the first time since he left that he did.

I understand Quill not wanting to set foot on Earth again and that's fine. But he has access to all kinds of nifty alien technology. Make a phone call from the other side of the Galaxy and let Pop's know you are alive and well. Not that difficult. Even in GOTG2 when this was a major topic it didn't even occur to Quill. It's made even worse when we see his grandfather almost killed by Ego, just like his mother was.

 

45 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I don't think the mindset of Steve and T'Challa was "I'm going to sacrifice the country of Wakanda and it's warriors to save this one android" the thinking was "Wakanda has the smartest person on the planet and the technology to safely remove the Mind Stone without killing him" and then "Those two guys who attacked him before are here and they brought a huge army? Fuck."  They didn't reckon an entire alien army was coming because they weren't seen when the big donut ship was above New York. Ultimately they filmmakers wanted a big battle scene between the Wakandan warriors and an alien army to justify the "war" part of the title(as people have joked Civil War should have been called Captain America: Airport Fight) Maybe it would have been better to have the Soul Stone be in Wakanda like some people theorized. Made the Avengers seem less selfish and more selfless helping the Wakandans defend their homeland.

But they knew Thanos was coming, with or without an army. And Banner has already made it perfectly clear that they have nothing to stop Thanos with. And half the universe IMO shouldn't be punished because no one thought to back up Vision earlier or to try and separate him from the stone or see if it was possible. Even just as a precaution. If anyone should have thought of that it was super machine Vision himself. Much like Bucky, there is something in Vision that he can't control. What if the Mind stone becomes stronger than Vision and all hell breaks loose. If the Mind stone controls Vision instead of vice versa, a safe bet would have been to have Vision studied sooner. So Vision should have gone to Wakanda when Bucky did after CW and be studied then.

 

2 minutes ago, mattie0808 said:

One thing I find interesting about the discussions of this movie...everyone has a take on whether or not Vision should have been sacrificed from the jump rather than take the risk of trying to remove and destroy the mind stone without killing him -- but I don't see anyone, anywhere, dealing with Strange and Wong's immediate and flat-out refusal to destroy the time stone when Tony suggests it back in NYC. Yes, I know they swore an oath, but nobody's giving up their own life to ensure there's no way for Thanos to get all six stones if they just destroy that one. And, at that point, we didn't have Strange looking into all possible futures to see the one way it all works out (so there wouldn't be the assumption that the time stone is the singular key to ultimately defeating Thanos after he wins in the short term).

Whether T'Challa was right or not, was Strange right? Ethically, not in an ends-justify-the-means kind of way because it's later clear they will need the time stone to undo all this? Why is his oath on par with Vision's life? Why is Wong's oath to guard the sanctum more important than him helping Bruce and the others?

If I'm missing something -- which is more than perfectly possible! -- or if there's an argument raging on this somewhere, I'm happy to be pointed in the right direction.

And as far as ends-justify-the-means storylines go, I kind of suspect that Shuri got far enough along with Vision for whatever's on her computer to be of some use to our heroes in A4, but I guess we'll see about that...

I. for one, count the Time stone as an individual. To make what I said less general. Everyone was unwilling to give up that which was most dear to them. This was in direct opposition to Thanos who sacrificed that which he loved most. And that's why he won. He was willing to make the hard call, no one else was. So whether it was Strange and his stone, Gamora with Nebula, Thor going for the emotional kill rather than the smart one, Captain America and his principles, T'Challa not wanting to commit to being a King to protect his people and everyone following Cap's way with not destroying Vision's stone earlier.

[mattie0808]

Quote

I. for one, count the Time stone as an individual. To make what I said less general. Everyone was unwilling to give up that which was most dear to them. This was in direct opposition to Thanos who sacrificed that which he loved most. And that's why he won.

Interesting, but I find it hard to put the stone on par with sacrificing people, Vision or otherwise. Strange's life didn't depend on the stone, and destroying it would keep half the universe safe before any of Thanos' children even showed up.

And, Quill and Wanda, at least, actually DID sacrifice what was most dear to them. Didn't help! ;) And you could make the argument that T'Challa was willing to sacrifice something most dear to him to do what he felt was the right thing.

I don't think there's one set of consistently "right" answers here, I just find it interesting that the folks who were trying to not kill someone they didn't necessarily have to kill (after all, Wakanda DOES have the tech to remove the stone and keep Vision alive) are being scrutinized while the dudes chilling in the sanctum aren't really, lol.

Edited May 14, 2018 by mattie0808

[Fukui San]

It occurs to me that this dilemma is just the Trolley Problem writ large to the point of ludicrousness.  Do nothing and the trolley runs over half the universe. Switch the tracks and it runs over The Vision.

[Smad]

35 minutes ago, mattie0808 said:

Interesting, but I find it hard to put the stone on par with sacrificing people, Vision or otherwise. Strange's life didn't depend on the stone, and destroying it would keep half the universe safe before any of Thanos' children even showed up.

And, Quill and Wanda, at least, actually DID sacrifice what was most dear to them. Didn't help! ;) And you could make the argument that T'Challa was willing to sacrifice something most dear to him to do what he felt was the right thing.

I don't think there's one set of consistently "right" answers here, I just find it interesting that the folks who were trying to not kill someone they didn't necessarily have to kill (after all, Wakanda DOES have the tech to remove the stone and keep Vision alive) are being scrutinized while the dudes chilling in the sanctum aren't really, lol.

 

It's not about people so much. That's not the point. What each individual valued too much to give up, is the point. That doesn't always have to be a person. For Strange it's a stone and for Cap it's his principles. For others it's people. But the fact is that Thanos was the only one willing to go there to get the desired outcome he wanted.

Wanda and Quill took too long. That's why I didn't work out. Granted I don't believe for a second Gamora would put it on Peter to kill her (unless she was in a situation where she was unable to kill herself) but since the scene took forever, it was never going to work. The only way Peter could have successfully killed Gamora was asap, pretty much before Thanos knew what would happen. And as for Vision, again that was something that should have been looked into since CW if not right after AoU. Then maybe Vision and the stone would have parted ways long ago. But waiting until it's literally too late never works out.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Smad

[tennisgurl]

2 hours ago, blueray said:

This bothers me too. Not so much in this movie as Quill had a lot going on. But why hasn't he ever returned to earth. He had his own ships for years before the first Guardian movie.

I feel awful for Peters grandpa. He lost his daughter to cancer, and seconds later, his grandson disappeared without a trace, and he never saw him again, or knows what happened to him. I can only imagine how guilty he must have felt, taking his eye off little Peter for one second, after his dying daughter said he was going to take care of him. For a really minor character, he has a really tragic story.

I figured that Peter was with the Ravengers for quite awhile, and they never let him go back home, and by the time he was old enough to have his own ship, either he didnt know how to get in touch, or at that point, he just didnt care to think about Earth anymore. We know grandpa is still alive, at least he was by the time of GoTG 2, so I hope that they can touch on that in future movies. If/when the Snappening is reversed. 

I assume that when Nebula and Tony get back to Earth, Nebula will tell Rocket what happened to the rest of his team. Poor Rocket lost everyone he loved in a literal moment, and he doesn't even know it yet. 

I also assume that the Avengers idea of hanging in Wakanda waiting for Thanos is that its the most technologically advanced nation on Earth, and even already has a shield, and that since Thanos is coming anyway, they might as well go to the place that could have the best shot, and where they could destroy the gem without killing Vision. Not a perfect plan, but I guess it makes sense in dire circumstances. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by tennisgurl

[HunterHunted]

Peter Quill not going back to Earth makes perfect sense. Most of his memories good and bad were from elsewhere in the galaxy. Peter has childhood memories of Earth that are very much mixed up with memories of his mother's cancer and her dying. This is a guy who couldn't open a gift from his mom for 20 years.

From the moment Strange and Wong refused to destroy the time stone, the rest of the universe has been just biding time. Killing Vision. Not killing Vision. It's ultimately worthless as long as the time stone remained in play.

[stealinghome]

6 hours ago, blueray said:

I agree, that Dr. Strange should have let Tony destroy it. At the time he was following the fact that he swear an oath to protect it and to be fair put up a good fight, until he realized he had to give it up for reasons unknown now.  Of course if he did let Tony destroy it there wouldn't be much of a movie.

Part of the problem, I think, is the writers knowing what the endgame is and writing as if the endgame justifies chronologically prior decisions. It’s a common pitfall but I’m still always disappointed when writers fall prey to it. I’m sure the Time Stone will be part of the Snapture reversal, so the writers were probably like “well, then Strange can’t destroy it,” not really thinking about the fact that it makes Strange look really bad in that moment.

Though that makes me wonder—could Strange actually destroy the Stone? In the sense of, is that actually something he is capable of doing? Or is it beyond his skill set? Is Wanda the only person in the galaxy that could destroy a Stone?

[JustaPerson]

21 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

Though that makes me wonder—could Strange actually destroy the Stone? In the sense of, is that actually something he is capable of doing? Or is it beyond his skill set? Is Wanda the only person in the galaxy that could destroy a Stone?

I'm thinking the same...they explained that Wanda could destroy the mind stone because it gave her her powers, so it's like on the same wavelength? -- I don't remember I'm seeing it again soon -- but it's not exactly certain Strange could destroy the time stone.

[KatWay]

Strange giving up the stone didn't bother me, cause it was so obviously foreshadowing that this was a part of how they would win. Like two scenes earlier he was all, I'll kill you myself to protect this stone and then he's like wait, actually I'd rather save Tony. So the snap is part of how they can save the world? It's possible he saw that just stopping Thanos from taking the stones wouldn't stop him, he'd just go on killing everyone and he was too powerful for them to just eliminate like any villain. So he needed to succeed in order to be taken out of the game for good.

Gamora's arc worked really well for me, although I rolled my eyes at her not immediately getting what was going to happen when Red Skull said Thanos had to give up something he loved. Like, they had just argued about his "love" for her.

Also, I love Thor. I loved how he tried to be the jolly action hero and go-getter he's always been and yet you could really feel the weight of all his losses on him. Hemsworth did really well.

[morakot]

On a shallow note: I was very happy Cap didn't die in this movie and was sad that he was so devastated. I guess I'm just going to have to volunteer to comfort him...

[VCRTracking]

10 hours ago, blueray said:

I agree, that Dr. Strange should have let Tony destroy it. At the time he was following the fact that he swear an oath to protect it and to be fair put up a good fight, until he realized he had to give it up for reasons unknown now.  Of course if he did let Tony destroy it there wouldn't be much of a movie.

 

10 hours ago, mattie0808 said:

Quote

I. for one, count the Time stone as an individual. To make what I said less general. Everyone was unwilling to give up that which was most dear to them. This was in direct opposition to Thanos who sacrificed that which he loved most. And that's why he won.

Interesting, but I find it hard to put the stone on par with sacrificing people, Vision or otherwise. Strange's life didn't depend on the stone, and destroying it would keep half the universe safe before any of Thanos' children even showed up.

 

1 hour ago, KatWay said:

Strange giving up the stone didn't bother me, cause it was so obviously foreshadowing that this was a part of how they would win. Like two scenes earlier he was all, I'll kill you myself to protect this stone and then he's like wait, actually I'd rather save Tony. So the snap is part of how they can save the world? It's possible he saw that just stopping Thanos from taking the stones wouldn't stop him, he'd just go on killing everyone and he was too powerful for them to just eliminate like any villain. So he needed to succeed in order to be taken out of the game for good.

I don't blame Strange or Wong for not wanting to destroy the Time Stone.  Unlike the other stones which are all too dangerous, in the right hands the time stone was a valuable weapon in protecting reality against extra-dimensional threats. Strange wouldn't have defeated Dormammu without it. Also he used it to find the one in 14,000,604 futures where they win. Even without the mind or time stone, Thanos is still powerful as Bruce said. The power stone could destroy a planet and Thanos now has the ability to go anywhere with the space stone. Just those two stones would allow him to kill billions of people across the universe.

[Wynterwolf]

4 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I don't blame Strange or Wong for not wanting to destroy the Time Stone.  Unlike the other stones which are all too dangerous, in the right hands the time stone was a valuable weapon in protecting reality against extra-dimensional threats. Strange wouldn't have defeated Dormammu without it. Also he used it to find the one in 14,000,604 futures where they win. Even without the mind or time stone, Thanos is still powerful as Bruce said. The power stone could destroy a planet and Thanos now has the ability to go anywhere with the space stone. Just those two stones would allow him to kill billions of people across the universe.

I agree, but I think all the stones are basically tools (even if some of them are bordering on sentient)... they're all only as dangerous or useful as the being that is using them.  Plus Thanos was already able to basically wipe the floor with the Hulk with the Power stone alone.  Tony was absolutely right about needing to create defenses for Earth, it was just a matter of knowing the threats that already existed (without Earth having done anything to 'attract' any threat, **coughVision'sBScough**) and having the technology to create something to counter what was out there (and often times, necessity and a knowable threat, is the mother of invention... like in the case of the IronMan suit itself), but it's also about balance and weighing the consequences of choices (which has basically be at the crux of all these movies).  There are a lot of reasons why they weren't ready for Thanos this time, but once they start working like a diverse team and respecting everyone's input, they'll figure something out using whatever tools they have available... that's what superheros do.    

[benteen]

15 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I feel awful for Peters grandpa. He lost his daughter to cancer, and seconds later, his grandson disappeared without a trace, and he never saw him again, or knows what happened to him. I can only imagine how guilty he must have felt, taking his eye off little Peter for one second, after his dying daughter said he was going to take care of him. For a really minor character, he has a really tragic story.

I figured that Peter was with the Ravengers for quite awhile, and they never let him go back home, and by the time he was old enough to have his own ship, either he didnt know how to get in touch, or at that point, he just didnt care to think about Earth anymore. We know grandpa is still alive, at least he was by the time of GoTG 2, so I hope that they can touch on that in future movies. If/when the Snappening is reversed. 

I assume that when Nebula and Tony get back to Earth, Nebula will tell Rocket what happened to the rest of his team. Poor Rocket lost everyone he loved in a literal moment, and he doesn't even know it yet. 

I also assume that the Avengers idea of hanging in Wakanda waiting for Thanos is that its the most technologically advanced nation on Earth, and even already has a shield, and that since Thanos is coming anyway, they might as well go to the place that could have the best shot, and where they could destroy the gem without killing Vision. Not a perfect plan, but I guess it makes sense in dire circumstances. 

 

Yeah, this was one of my few disappointments with Infinity War.  I was really hoping Quill would make it back to Earth and that he would at least let his grandfather know that he was all right.  Quill's grandfather is easily one of the saddest elements of the whole MCU.  Losing his daughter to cancer is absolutely awful but at least he knows her fate.  Your grandson immediately and literally disappears off of the face of the Earth...how do you recover from that? 

Yeah, Strange not destroying the time stone right away is an issue too.  He swore an oath, true, but there's a lot of selfishness and ME ME ME personality there.  The only thing that justifies it with me is if that stone will be used to fix the damage that Thanos is still capable of doing.  Even with only five of the stones, he can do a LOT of damage in the galaxy.

16 hours ago, Smad said:

I think it's very much in line at least with Team Cap. Steve will move heaven and earth to save individuals he knows. But he doesn't give a crap about those he doesn't. He was willing to save Bucky and ruined a lot of lives in the process. It doesn't gel with the Cap from AoU. But it's good continuation in IW with the Cap from CW. But why T'Challa would risk all of his people, yeah I don't get it.

When Steve makes unilateral decisions like this, it really shoots his thinking in Civil War that they can be trusted to make these decisions straight to hell.  Natasha was 100% right in The Winter Soldier to throw the governments hypocrisy over Shield right back in their faces (they allowed a secret Nazi organization to rise up inside of it) but the Avengers also have an arrogant "We're always right and we can be trusted to make the right decision" mentality.  Steve suffers from it and like many of the "geniuses" in the Marvel Universe (I'm referring more to the comics) Tony thinks that his intellect and wealth entitle him to take these gambles with the fate of the world.

Edited May 15, 2018 by benteen

[Smad]

7 hours ago, KatWay said:

Gamora's arc worked really well for me, although I rolled my eyes at her not immediately getting what was going to happen when Red Skull said Thanos had to give up something he loved. Like, they had just argued about his "love" for her.

The only thing that worked for me was Zoe's acting as it was IMO the best of her MCU run. Everything else around Gamora didn't work for me at all. And I really don't consider 'dying' an arc. Her whole purpose in the movie was to die (by fridging). And everything surrounding that 'arc' pissed me off. They retconned her history and GOTG1 and had her acting completely OOC at almost every turn.

4 minutes ago, benteen said:

When Steve makes unilateral decisions like this, it really shoots his thinking in Civil War that they can be trusted to make these decisions straight to hell.

That was the major flaw in his thinking in CW. He was against oversight because every governing body has an agenda and agendas change. What he forgot is that he is also someone with an agenda. And him thinking that only his agenda is the right one is dangerously arrogant. For Cap nothing is better than his own principles which he sadly only applies to people he knows/cares about. But it's those principles that got people hurt/killed.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Smad

[JTMacc99]

On 5/14/2018 at 11:43 AM, Sakura12 said:

I know it was a darker more serious movie but I sill appreciate that Marvel has it's humorous moments. You need the light with the dark otherwise what's the point. 

They really do it well. It helps that the actors are fantastic. I loved every second of the Stark/Strange banter. Thor and Rocket was just such a great pair. Dax's effusive praise about how handsome and strong Thor was amazing. Stark's flip phone. 

But I think my favorite funny thing in the entire movie was teenager Groot. I have a 13 year old boy. There is virtually no difference between him and teenage Groot. And it's just wonderful the way they go from seedling Groot at the end of the first movie, to little one last movie, to teenager this movie. 

[MarkHB]

Folks, this isn't the Civil War thread, nor the general MCU one. Please stick to IW and not ancient history that has been discussed and rehashed.

[Smad]

Does anyone have an explanation why Gamora died from that fall anyway? The distance seemed to be the same like them falling off the ship on GOTG2 and she landed on her feet then.

[VCRTracking]

[Wynterwolf]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

Does anyone have an explanation why Gamora died from that fall anyway? The distance seemed to be the same like them falling off the ship on GOTG2 and she landed on her feet then.

I haven't seen any specific explanation, but I would guess that her soul was gone from her body before it hit the bottom, so basically it was just a shell at that point.  

[Lantern7]

@VCRTracking . . . 50/50 chance of that happening. "WHAT THE FU-??!?"