S03.E06: Josh Is Irrelevant

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Rebecca tries to come to grips with her new life and some new information about herself.

Promo:

[Spartan Girl]

The bathroom scene tie-in to the theme song was GENIUS.

Oh man, poor Nathaniel. Him witnessing his mom's suicide attempt as a child explains so much about him. I get that it's a difficult subject for his parents to address, but his dad is a real piece of work, telling him off for trying to talk about it. At least he was able to have a good conversation with his mom about it.

I could relate to Rebecca's horror and denial about a BPD diagnosis. It's hard to accept something you don't want to hear. It's good that she's FINALLY making some real progress, making a commitment to therapy and realizing a relationship isn't the answer to everything.

While Paula's enabling was at an all-time high this episode, I was glad she told Josh to GTFO of the hospital. Speaking of whom, he so needs to get over himself. Even if he was genuinely concerned, his guilt was more about wanting to feel like the good guy again. At least he finally knew when to walk away when he overheard Rebecca...lets hope he has the brains to take care of that puppy.

LOL at Valencia's "Movement" song. Oh this show and it's double entendres.

[alrightokay]

Impressive acting by everyone tonight and such a smart and sensitive episode.  The writers were not only able to weave in the different ways Rebecca's friends processed her suicide attempt, they were also able to provide just enough background on Rebecca's diagnosis so that it didn't feel like it came out of left field.  And I liked the thoughtful conversation Hector and Josh had, where Hector made it clear that it wasn't just one thing (not you, Josh!) that caused Rebecca to take those pills.  

I also enjoyed the following moments:

George asking Nathaniel for money for the cupcake basket and then the presence of that huuuge cupcake basket in Rebecca's hospital room.

The stuffed alligator being in Nathaniel's office and then its name later being revealed as "Ruth Gator Ginsberg."

Aww at Paula, Valencia, and Heather having a "sleepover" right outside Rebecca's room.

Poor Hector, having to be the outlet for Valencia's anger.  (But Yay for Heather and Hector!)

I can't decide which line was better: Valencia's "Bitch get out of my way, Bitch!" or Heather's "Heeyyyyyy, Girl!  How was your pee?"

 

6 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

At least he finally knew when to walk away when he overheard Rebecca...lets hope he has the brains to take care of that puppy.

This might be the most clichéd, simplistic way to tie up some loose ends, but maybe Josh could give the puppy to White Josh and Darryl (after they talk through all the issues they brought up in the yurt).

Edited November 18, 2017 by alrightokay

[Eeksquire]

Quote

Josh could give the puppy to White Josh and Darryl (after they talk through all the issues they brought up in the yurt).

That's brilliant.

I have to say, I really like where they're going with Nathaniel's character.  I never would have guessed that after his introduction last season, but I really like the way his character is evolving from cartoon villain to something 'a lot more nuanced than that'.  

[GenieinTX]

I love the whole "This isn't about Josh" thing.   The writing on this show is amazing.  The character arc for Rebecca is soooooo good.   And all the side characters have some lessons to learn also.  Josh has always been the center of some woman's universe, Paula needs to examine her own issues, Nathaniel is realizing a lot about himself..  UGH This Show is Amazing!!

[Save Yourself]

I am very excited and pleased that BPD is being treated so sensitively and accurately. I have BPD and don't tell many people because it is highly stigmatised - all the things that Rebecca looked up on the net are so scary and when I think about people who I disclose to reading that information it feels safer not to broadcast it. I had thought that is what was driving her behaviour because of the way she has been characterised throughout the series - it is spot on for BPD. The way she verbally attacked her friends in the fourth episode was the clincher for me, the most problematic symptom of BPD is the way we self sabotage. I'm looking forward to seeing how they show Rebecca gaining understanding of her illness and how she is going to start to regulate her emotions. This is the first time I have seen BPD in TV or film cast in an empathetic light which is a huge relief and I hope it goes someway to educating the audience with a fair and honest depiction of the diagnosis.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Save Yourself

[halgia]

The little bit of "I Have Friends" in the hospital was so perfect.

[theatremouse]

13 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Oh man, poor Nathaniel. Him witnessing his mom's suicide attempt as a child explains so much about him. I get that it's a difficult subject for his parents to address, but his dad is a real piece of work, telling him off for trying to talk about it. At least he was able to have a good conversation with his mom about it.

I thought it was a bit ambiguous, but my interpretation of that talk with his mother was that she hadn't actually attempted suicide, just that based on what Nathaniel saw he thought she did and it had been haunting him this whole time. When she mentioned having a problem with sleeping pills and then going somewhere to learn to sleep without pills, I thought the implication was that her "month sailing" was rehab. She did OD since he couldn't wake her up, but I thought it was ambiguous as to whether she took too many pills at once on purpose knowing the consequences, or just because she was dependent on them and had been progressively taking more and more and eventually took too many.

[dubbel zout]

I don't think it matters if Nathaniel's mom deliberately tried to kill herself or accidentally OD'd. The point was he was triggered by Rebecca's suicide attempt, and it was something no one had talked about until he finally brought it up. His dad is a clichéd example of the uptight WASP, but that doesn't make him any less of a jerk. I'm glad Nathaniel's mom was able to talk to him. 

I just finished listening to Pete Davidson's episode of "WTF" with Marc Maron. (Davidson was recently diagnosed with BPD.) The show is handling this so well. Rebecca of course goes on the Internet and reads the worst things about BPD, refuses to accept her diagnosis, but then once Dr. Akopian reads her the checklist, Rebecca realizes that's exactly her. (And giving us examples from the show really indicates how carefully the show planned this out.) And now that she has a diagnosis that's accurate and she accepts it, she goes all in with her therapy.

I'm also glad Josh got to hear Rebecca say she hadn't thought of him at all and that he was basically irrelevant. He still needs to apologize to her, but it's good for him to know he needs to back off. It's not about him, and stuff has to happen on Rebecca's time table now, not his. He's lost his window of opportunity for the time being.

Edited November 18, 2017 by dubbel zout

[DianeDobbler]

Social workers both in my family and a psychologist friend outside the family talk about BP exactly the way the internet does, so I don't blame Rebecca for being appalled. But, IMO, she has too much self-recrimination and compassion for me to experience her as a character with BP. She has so much remorse for what she does to others. She doesn't consistently undermine those around her in order to feel better about herself / keep a power position. She did it when she felt backed into a corner at the intervention, but in general she tends to be supportive to others, and consistently so.

In one ten minute interview I saw with Princess Diana (speculated to have BP) she was toxic. She took pot shots at her sister, her father, Charles and the queen (for separate things), all the while portraying herself as the only genuine person she knew. Her only flaw was having faith in people.  

Rebecca has a compassion for those close to her. She's not a case of compassion for "people" but callous treatment of individuals. Yes, it's mixed up with the dysfunctional soup of her life, but her self-loathing is palpable. It's not tied up with making other people feel bad.

The main person towards whom she behaves in a bp way, IMO, is her mom.

Edited November 18, 2017 by DianeDobbler

[doesntworkonwood]

I thought that the episode was really good, and I'm super happy with the way they wrote Rebecca in this episode. They say that the first step to recovery is acceptance, but I'm glad that they didn't let Rebecca accept her diagnosis straight away. Two steps forward and one step back is generally how recovery goes, it's never just a straight path. I thought that the suicide attempt was handled really well, and I liked how that tied in to Nathanial's background as well. I thought those two storylines meshed really well together, but the Josh scenes were just distracting. I wish that those were pushed back to next week because Josh was genuinely irrelevant in this episode. 

[Iseut]

It was a testament to how well the arc of the show has been designed that both times Josh showed up, I thought "What is HE doing there?" He is truly irrelevant at this point in Rebecca's story, which is an impressive feat, given how Josh-centric her story has been from the start. That said, I'd love to see Josh and Rebecca connect again once they've both done some self-examination and healing. Probably not in a romantic way, but they do have a complex history and connection that I'm looking forward to seeing the show explore after this turning point. Also, I am invested in the future of the puppy he brought.

Rachel Bloom's acting has been incredible...to go from post-suicidal depression to euphoria and that joyous, sunny diagnosis song, and then back to reality in one episode...her talent blows me away.

I was also impressed with Scott Michael Foster...he had to play a lot of "nuance" in this episode,  and that was a very accurate depiction of a near-panic attack.

Happinesses:

Ruth Gator Ginsberg! Perfect.

Heather and Hector! Wonder if they've hung out with Hector's mom yet...

Aww, sweet sunburned Darryl. 

[DianeDobbler]

I would have said that Erick Lopez (Hector) was expendable on the show, but he's not - he's really sharp. His conversation with Josh was excellent. The more I see of Josh this season, the more obvious it is how much he's not dealing with. His parents sort of roll their eyes instead of talking to him as well (such as when he announced he was going to ask for a raise). 

Recently watched an early episode of Crazy Ex Girlfriend when Josh and Rebecca were talking about camp. She mentioned he was the only one who ever went into the chapel at camp, and Josh talked about how even though nobody else does, he likes going to church. So that was genuinely part of him.

[Leia1979]

Like last week, this was great and a little hard to watch. I wonder if the show has always intended for Rebecca to have BPD. I looked up the NIMH definition during the commercial break after it was mentioned and could come up with multiple examples of Rebecca's past behavior for each trait. 

Once again, Rebecca latched onto a magical thing that would make her life better--this time it was a different diagnosis (until she googled it). Very consistent behavior for her. 

I was glad to see Valencia's apparent shallowness with her "movement" was actually covering up her fear. 

Nathaniel and his mom--also tough. I took that as his mom spent time in an institution after her OD. If the sleeping pill incident was accidental as she said, cognitive behavioral therapy is used to treat insomnia (i.e. learning to sleep without pills).

Heather and Hector are once again the consistent voice of reason. And what was Josh thinking with a puppy! Just no. Pets are not gifts, especially if they haven't been explicitly discussed beforehand.

[Cranberry]

2 minutes ago, Leia1979 said:

And what was Josh thinking with a puppy! Just no. Pets are not gifts, especially if they haven't been explicitly discussed beforehand.

I know! That was so stupid. One should never surprise someone with a puppy... unless maybe the person has expressed strong interest in getting a puppy beforehand, and even then you should give them some input into the breed/mix, size, and energy level of the 10+ year commitment you're saddling them with. Also, surprising an exhausted, suicidal person with a puppy is even worse, because puppies are terrible! They need constant supervision, they chew things, they pee inside, they disrupt your sleep for weeks... "puppy blues" are a thing that happens to so many people, even those who aren't already struggling with mental illnesses or personality disorders.

[Spartan Girl]

Aww, I wouldn't say puppies are "terrible". They ARE a lot of work, though. So yeah, Josh had better at least give it to someone that will take good care of it.

[alrightokay]

This is a fantastic behind-the-scenes extra: Gabrielle Ruiz posted the extended selfie-camera footage of Heather and Valencia's argument.  Interesting to see how self-aware Heather is about her own way of coping with Rebecca's trauma.  And I'm surprised (impressed?) by the deal she made with Hector (and his smooth arms).  

[Cranberry]

8 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Aww, I wouldn't say puppies are "terrible". They ARE a lot of work, though. So yeah, Josh had better at least give it to someone that will take good care of it.

Oh, I know, I was being hyperbolic. Puppies are a lot of work and a big disruption to a routine, though! I must admit that at certain times while training one (mostly when I have to wake up and go outside at 3-4 am), I genuinely do believe they're terrible.

I like the idea of White Josh and Darryl (voluntarily!) taking the puppy, although I also wouldn't be surprised if we never hear about it again.

[Empress1]

My ex's mother had BPD. I didn't know her (she died long before I met him) but from what he told me, she was very very difficult to live with, including physical and emotional abuse. She was institutionalized a couple of times (this was decades ago; ex is considerably older than I). It seems like this show is going to be very sensitive and deliberate in its portrayal.

The flashbacks interspersed with the BPD characteristics were brilliant. The long game with this show is one of the best.

[AllyB]

What will the next episode be called? Presumably Rebecca's realisation that none of this was ever really about Josh will see a change in how the episodes are named. The show is too deliberate in it's execution to continue with the Josh names if Rebecca really has moved on from her fixation on him.

[holly4755]

I think the puppy is a perfect representation of how Josh is completely not thinking, A puppy is a responsibility, you only want to give to responsible people, not everyone is a dog person especially a city girl.  It is a TV fix, in real life it does not fix anything. I think TV is probably where Josh gets ideas, he is not exactly a deep person. On the other side the puppy would serve another purpose, tying Rebecca to Josh, Seeing it she would remember Josh, Perhaps he is not ready to give up being idolized or Rebecca either. 

One of the things I like about this show is everyone has something, no one is perfect.  Right now I think that miss Millennial is probably the only one sided character, everyone else has shown different sides of themselves and flaws. 

[Roccos Brother]

I just wanted to say - Josh with the puppy was the absolute most adorable thing that has occurred on this show yet, hands down!

ETA - I still don't like/care about Nathaniel. His character and "stuffy-uptight guy turns out to have a heart" redemption storyline (which has been done so many times) is not the least bit interesting to me.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Roccos Brother

[Irlandesa]

2 hours ago, AllyB said:

What will the next episode be called? Presumably Rebecca's realisation that none of this was ever really about Josh will see a change in how the episodes are named. The show is too deliberate in it's execution to continue with the Josh names if Rebecca really has moved on from her fixation on him.

The next episode is called Getting Over Jeff.

[AlliMo]

I really loved this episode. My fiance's ex and mother of his daughter has BPD, and it really resonated with me. She can be incredibly funny, caring and creative, but she's also often frustrating, difficult and unreasonable, and I have to take a step back and remind myself of how much pain people with her disorder are in. They feel everything so intensely and have little to no ability to self regulate their emotions and no sense of self, and it has to be terrifying to live that way. As much as I want to see how they show Rebecca deals with this, I'm just as eager to see how the people around her grapple with their own issues that her problems have brought to light in their lives.

 

I love this show so much.

[LisaM]

I adored Rebecca's Diagnosis song. Just loved it. 

So glad that Dr. Akopian is still in the picture. Loved her aside about having to talk about Paula. 

I didn't hear any mention of Rebecca's mother's reaction to the suicide attempt. 

Loved that the Hector/Heather pairing - genius - especially given the Valencia/Hector background.

[BoogieBurns]

A good friend of mine has BPD. Since I have known her, I have thought she was similar to Rebecca Bunch. The instant "best friend" relationship with anyone who is kind to them; acting out sexually during an episode of mania; spending crazy amounts of money on a whim; being heartbroken when last minute plans are cancelled; randomly being too selfish to keep plans; even her obsession with work. 

I thought Rebecca was already diagnosed with BPD and wasn't sure why this was a shock. But then I remembered I had never heard of this disorder until I met my friend about 2 years ago. I thought it was the same as Bipolar because they both include manic episodes. But it's quite different. 

[dungeonwriter]

Yeah, where is Naomi on this?

Otherwise, awesome episode. 

I love Ruth Gator Ginsburg and I hope it comforted Nathaniel, that trip down memory lane was harsh. He so clearly loves his mother and his parents are so emotionally distant. He and Rebecca have a lot in common, parent wise. 

This episode was amazing. Not showing Mental Wards as evil, but as safe places for healing. 

[Snarklepuss]

11 hours ago, Cranberry said:

Oh, I know, I was being hyperbolic. Puppies are a lot of work and a big disruption to a routine, though! I must admit that at certain times while training one (mostly when I have to wake up and go outside at 3-4 am), I genuinely do believe they're terrible.

ITA that puppies are terrible - Terrible but oh-so-cute, which reminds me of the old expression that this is "why God makes them so cute".  But I definitely agree that Rebecca is not in the right place to take care of a puppy, and I think that was the point of showing Josh bringing her one.  Nathaniel brought her Ruth Gator Ginsburg and flowers which showed he was thinking about her.  Josh is always thinking at a level of teenage maturity and so is totally off the mark.

4 hours ago, BoogieBurns said:

A good friend of mine has BPD. Since I have known her, I have thought she was similar to Rebecca Bunch. The instant "best friend" relationship with anyone who is kind to them; acting out sexually during an episode of mania; spending crazy amounts of money on a whim; being heartbroken when last minute plans are cancelled; randomly being too selfish to keep plans; even her obsession with work.

I knew a woman with BPD several years ago and it kind of threw me off a little with Rebecca mostly because the woman I knew was very paranoid and always thinking people were conspiring against her behind her back, plus she exhibited such intense anger that she was just an all around unpleasant person.  At least Rebecca has some conscience and likability.  But I guess everyone exhibits different aspects of the disorder differently and I do see where Rebecca fits the definition pretty well, especially because being around her feels like a roller coaster ride of constant drama.  It makes me wonder if one of the writers knows the disorder very well either from themselves or someone in their lives and patterned Rebecca after them. 

40 minutes ago, dungeonwriter said:

I love Ruth Gator Ginsburg and I hope it comforted Nathaniel, that trip down memory lane was harsh. He so clearly loves his mother and his parents are so emotionally distant. He and Rebecca have a lot in common, parent wise.

Speaking of a trip down memory lane, I couldn't help but think that Nathaniel's parents lived on "The Quartermaine Estate" (old "General Hospital" reference for anyone that remembers that!).

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Awwwww, I loved hearing the instrumental of "I Have Friends" during this episode.

Oh, Nathaniel. I know it's hard to know the right thing to say after something like this happens, even under normal circumstances. I have struggled over what to say in sympathy cards EVERY time I've had to send one. Nothing ever feels adequate. But knowing what happened with his mom just makes it that much more understandable.

I was annoyed with Hector when he walked right behind Valencia while she was shooting a video. You see someone is shooting a video. You know what it's for. Your choices are (1) wait a whole minute so that she can finish shooting this video (2) walk in front Valencia's chair so that you can pee AND not be in the shot (3) walk right behind Valencia's chair so that you can pee and be in the shot. But later when he told Josh that he was providing an outlet for Valencia's aggression, I thought it was weird but sweet that he knows her well enough to put himself in the line of fire on purpose.

I totally understand Rebecca pinning all her hopes on a new diagnosis. Semi-related, a friend of mine got sick and none of the doctors could figure out what was wrong with him. Some of them said there was nothing wrong with him and that there was no medical reason for him to have these symptoms. This went on for a good six months. At one point, he began to wonder if he was imagining this illness. He just wanted to know what was actually wrong and get some kind of treatment.

So from that point of view, I could see how being told by Dr. D that she had been previously misdiagnosed and that was why she had been struggling would make her feel like a new diagnosis would be a ray of light and the answer to her problems.

Unfortunately, I felt that she was so focused on the semantics of having a personality disorder that she initially didn't want to accept it. I'm glad that Dr. Akopian was able to get her to see it after just reading her the list.

I get Josh wanting to apologize because he feels guilty. He SHOULD feel guilty because he did a really shitty thing. But it shouldn't take Rebecca trying to commit suicide for him to realize that he did a shitty thing. What's worse is that it's his guilt that's driving him. He wants to apologize so that HE feels better. While a puppy is a sweet gesture in theory, it is a terrible idea to give ANYONE a pet as a gift unless you know 100% that they want this pet and are willing to commit to the lifespan of this animal as a responsible pet owner. What Rebecca needs right now is not an animal that needs housebreaking, feeding, walking, vet appointments, etc. She needs time to deal with everything that's going on with her right now. It was an adorable puppy, but it was just another sign of Josh's state of mind. He wants to make a kind gesture but he chooses the wrong one.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

 

A Diagnosis:

 

This Is My Movement:

[marketdoctor]

First, thanks to everyone for the courage to talk about BPD.  I've known people with it as well, and sometimes it helps to know you've done the best you could.  I'll mention again my belief that something in the next five years will be the best thing that happens to you in that five years, and it's worth staying to see what it is--but mostly people in dark places want someone to reach out to them, and that's my way of doing it.

I loved "A Diagnosis" because I've known a lot of people with physical health problems, and it's amazing how powerful a label is--maybe because it gives someone hope that the underlying cause can be fixed.

I understood how Josh could think a puppy was a good gift, because puppies ARE cute for a little while, and sound great if they're someone else's problems.  Those problems are why they are only appropriate if you've had the conversation before, and even then go to petfinder.com or a shelter to rescue one.  (If it's a close call, adult dogs have many advantages of a puppy with a shorter housebreaking curve (but not zero; if you can't deal with "output", maybe try the robot kind.))

[DianeDobbler]

Aline Bosh McKenna said they wrote Rebecca "by feel" for awhile, and only started to circle around a diagnosis after the show was up and running. 

I have mixed feelings about Nathanial. I always want to duck when I re-state this, but I really didn't like Santino Fontana's acting, not on this show, and I think Scott Michael Thomas's acting and his humor is a much better fit.  I kind of disagree with Aline Bosh McKenna saying that in this episode we learn why Nathanial is so comfortable with Rebecca (i.e., his mom). Yes, they both had suicide attempts, but they're completely different women. If anything, Nathanial would be comfortable with Rebecca in reaction to his mother, not because she's similar. I know a really WASP guy who married a drama queen - there's upsides and downsides to that choice, but it was clear he went for someone passionate, who expresses affection and opinions, in some sort of reaction to his upbringing and to previous girlfriends.

I've been looking back and the writing for Josh is all over the place. His "issue" - aversion to guilt, responsibility, and adult life in general - has been consistent, but the Josh in "Will Josh Come to My Party", the Josh in the Xmas episode, and the Josh who went to Scarsdale with Rebecca has a joy in him and social / emotional intelligence that you can see would make him very popular and a comfort, despite his issues. Since he decided to become a priest, they played the dumb of that so strongly he may as well have mid 2-digit IQ.

I think the show has problems writing for Gabrielle Ruiz. Yes, she does the mean girl thing well, but I'd like them to tap into the part of her that held her own in "Feeling Kind of Naughty Tonight." She had nothing to do but dance and smile while Rebecca sang about Valencia, but she was completely in sync with Bloom and hit the exact right tone. I remember being really impressed that she was able to do her job in that number without being awkward at all. She was also excellent in the episode where they were stalking Anna, and IMO stole the "Let's Generalize about Men" number with her dancing and facial expressions.  I didn't like her "This is my Movement" number because it was so obvious she doesn't play the piano, it was distracting.

[SmithW6079]

I think Rebecca needs to get away from the domineering women who have dominated her -- her mother back in New York and Paula in West Covina. Both of them are destroying her.

[tennisgurl]

I have always suspected that Rebecca had BPD, as I have always associated BPD with people who have very strong, often inappropriate and destructive emotional reactions to things that other people can more easily deal with. Different people have different sets of issues, but thats certainly a common trait. I can totally understand her happiness at finding a new diagnosis (I've been there, Rebecca), and her being upset about getting a "bad" diagnosis. Really, BPD can be dealt with, even if its tough. It doesn't make a person a sociopath or a guaranteed suicide, its just a problem that needs dealing with. I know, easier said than done, but her accepting this and getting help is a HUGE step in the right direction, the biggest step she has made so far. Although, I will say that I was super impressed to see her finally admit what I think we`ve all known since day one: that Josh is just a syptom of the problem, not the problem itself. Her issues are clearly much bigger and deeper than a dysfunctional romance gone wrong. BPD fully lines up with Rebecca and what we have seen of her. 

I appreciate how much Paula loves Rebecca and is there for her, but she is such an enabler, and she still seems to not fully get that. She always jumps right onto what ever train Rebecca is riding, and not often enough does she push back when Rebecca is obviously on the wrong track. Really Rebecca's problems go beyond BPD, and in getting help for this, I hope she can deal with her other issues. 

Poor Nathaniel. I can more and more see how he and Rebecca connect, as they both come from dysfunctional families where real emotions were ignored and repressed, and so much was put on appearance, that not much was put on real connections. The guy is clearly a mess, and the more you see of his life, the more I understand him. 

Great to see more of Valencia and Heather this week, and I love that Heather and Hector are still a thing. Its nice to see them all dealing with these issues and how they're dealing with their friends suicide attempt. Plus I am always thrilled to see resident Voice of Reason Dr. Akopian.

[theatremouse]

Something that was intriguing to me this episode was when Rebecca was giving her list of her previous (wrong) diagnoses, she mentioned depression, anxiety and OCD. I'm pretty sure previous episodes certainly implied she'd been diagnosed with depression and/or general anxiety disorder, and I think while the show definitely supports a diagnosis of BPD, they also did enough things to give depression-ish and anxiety-ish vibes. (Also I think it's not uncommon for people with BPD to show some symptoms in common with depression and anxiety). So none of that is shocking or contradictory. However I can't think of anything in-show that struck me as particularly conspicuously OCD, nor do I remember them ever mentioning it before. Not that that precludes it, and certainly anxiety and OCD are homeys, but it was interesting to me in the moment to hear that specific list of three. Of course, she's a fictional character and plenty of people with OCD either have mild enough cases or are just really good at hiding it from others. Still now it's got me wracking my brain for anything we've seen onscreen that would've supported her previous diagnosis. I mean, obviously, the show just set it up as a wrong diagnosis, so maybe it makes sense that one of the things they mentioned was a bit of a "huh?" Still I find myself looking for some small subset of behaviour that would make it make more sense why a previous doctor might've leaned in that direction. Definitely, she's obsessive. Not remotely in question. Although I guess that's the point is that just because she's obsessive doesn't mean OCD would've been the right answer, since it...wasn't.

[dubbel zout]

BPD is difficult to diagnose accurately, because so many of its symptoms overlap with other disorders. I’m not surprised the show didn’t give Rebecca a diagnosis until now.

[DianeDobbler]

Paula isn't destroying Rebecca. As the show runner said, there's a lot of love there, but also boundary problems. I think we're accustomed to Rebecca's boundary issues, but maybe more disconcerted by Paula's since the package is a more conventional wife/mom thing, and there's the age difference.  So it looks more incongruent in a Paula than in a Rebecca. Paula was an enabler, but until she got help, Rebecca was going to be doing what she was doing anyway, with or without Paula's help, and at least Rebecca had unconditional love, which Paula did provide.

This episode hit the boundary issues SO hard I think it's obviously setting up us learning more about Paula and why she is channeling so much of HER stuff into Rebecca.  It seems to me we see that she has a supportive family and a good marriage - I say this despite her husband cheating that time. I get that maybe she always wanted a daughter, so there's that. And I get that Rebecca probably has a lot of drive and "go for it" willingness that Paula wishes she had had. She's alluded to missed opportunities in her youth, roads not taken, so she may be living a bit vicariously.  I'm a bit curious as to why she's channeling so much into Rebecca when it seems to me she's kept up with her law studies and has taken on an expanded role at work (her work with the time share client was strong enough for it to give her a standing invitation), so she is creating a better life for herself. I suspect with next week's episode, we're going to circle around to Paula's childhood and the messages she tells herself. She loves Rebecca, but Rebecca is also clearly an escape for her and is maybe an opportunity for Paula to relive similar stuff that happened when she was young.

I think Naomi is written very inconsistently, usually in service of a necessary plot point instead of in character. Her complete disregard for Rebecca's wedding last season doesn't match up with her overinvolvement in Rebecca's life at other times. When I look at Naomi I remember what Doris Roberts said about her character in Everybody Loves Raymond - that she was the nudge and PITA she was for fear of being irrelevant. If everybody was doing a good job, then who needed her? I see Naomi as someone whose husband deserted her when her child was young, and that was a psychological blow, and she has this brilliant, passionate daughter she has trouble understanding, but loves (remember the tears in her eyes when she asked Rebecca if she was coming home for the holidays)? And let's not forget that many anxiety issues and personality disorders run in families, so Naomi may just be part of a cycle, not an originater. In flashbacks we have seen that Naomi was there for Rebecca, however imperfectly, after the Robert debacle. I believe she worries about her, doesn't understand her, and also incessantly criticizes her because that's how she keeps herself relevant. If she validated Rebecca, then why would Rebecca need her? What use would Naomi be? Rebecca can't see it. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by DianeDobbler

[txhorns79]

Quote

I think Rebecca needs to get away from the domineering women who have dominated her -- her mother back in New York and Paula in West Covina. Both of them are destroying her.

It was surprising that Naomi was nowhere to be seen at the hospital.  Though maybe she's blaming herself for Rebecca's suicide attempt, and the guilt was too much for her to be able to see Rebecca.  As for Paula, I agree that she needs to back off, but not necessarily that she's destroying Rebecca.  It kind of goes back to what Rebecca said before.  Paula has a husband and kids, and she immediately back burners them for Rebecca's issues.  Even though Rebecca treats her like a mother-figure, Paula needs to step back and recognize she isn't Rebecca's mother and needs to serve a more healthy role in Rebecca's life.      

[theatremouse]

23 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

It was surprising that Naomi was nowhere to be seen at the hospital.

As soon as they showed her in a hospital in the LA area, I figured Rebecca must have made Paula her emergency contact at some point after she moved to West Covina. (I also wondered if Darryl really accepted her resignation the previous episode, and hopefully not otherwise Rebecca probably has no health insurance right now, and since they didn't go there, presumably his unwillingness to accept her leaving means she's set on that front.) If a non-Naomi human were Rebecca's emergency contact, then I can see how Naomi might not be there, but only if whoever were there also didn't contact Naomi, and the only reason for that is if Rebecca were A) conscious and B) able to tell them not to before Paula/Heather/etc otherwise would've. Given how Rebecca left her mother's house, I would buy her saying not to contact her mother. That said, given it was her mother's name on the prescription bottle she ODed with, it begs a few questions as to how her mother could end up out of the loop. I'm not sure how HIPPA would play into it...not that her mother's contact info would be on the bottle, but her mother's doctor's info would and there might be questions about why Rebecca had a whole bottle of her mother's meds to OD on in the first place. Still, if either Paula or Heather were already Rebecca's emergency contact from before her attempt to flee, then I think there's a plausible implication that Naomi may not actually know what happened on the plane, which explains her absence in this episode beyond keeping her on the other coast. Heck, depending on what Rebecca said after being admitted, it might have been deemed better for her health to leave her mother out of the loop. Although if that were the case it'd suck of Valencia to be posting all over the internet. I think it's equally possible either: Naomi does not know this happened or Naomi does know and has been told not to come.

[chaifan]

OK, I'll admit it - I was a little surprised about BPD being such a stigmatized disorder (as mentioned on the show and in this thread).  While I've heard of it, I never would have considered it any differently than any other mental health issue. 

I would have liked to at least see a nod to Naomi - maybe Rebecca just getting off the phone with her when Paula comes in the room.  "bye, mom.  thanks for calling.  love you."  I thought it was weird she wasn't even mentioned.  I'm not a fan of the new doctor.  Yes, nice eye candy, but there's something about the actor I just don't care for.  He was on The Catch, and I thought his acting there was also a bit awkward.  But at least he seems normal.  I hope there's an episode where Paula realizes her boundary issues with Rebecca are not healthy.  Can't imagine what size truck it will take to hit her with for her to actually realize that, but still hoping. 

And I just loved Ruth Gator Ginsberg!!! 

[txhorns79]

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OK, I'll admit it - I was a little surprised about BPD being such a stigmatized disorder (as mentioned on the show and in this thread).  While I've heard of it, I never would have considered it any differently than any other mental health issue. 

The only familiarity I had with it was from Winona Ryder's diagnosis in Girl Interrupted.  I never knew that there was any significant stigma attached to it. 

Also, on a shallow note, I thought Rachel/Rebecca looked great in that yellow dress. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by txhorns79

[DianeDobbler]

I had always read that BPD was the most difficult to treat. One of my sisters is getting her clinical social worker credentials working for a woman who specializes in DBT with a mostly borderline clientele - adolescents. The woman has to turn away clients because there are so few social workers and psychologists who work with borderlines effectively.  I recently had a psychologist tell me they'd rather have a patient with anything else on the DSM. Everything Rebecca read on the internet is stuff I've heard directly from people who work in the sector. Just that it's enormously, enormously challenging. 

OTOH, I think Rebecca is a more promising borderline client than most because of her age, her education, her high intelligence, her ability to learn, her love of research, and just being ready. She hit the proverbial bottom. She wants to get better. She "gets" it. I think if she'd been diagnosed as a teen it would have been pretty daunting given her home life and her age. She's also truly compassionate and empathetic with the people in her life, not simply with "humanity". She hasn't cut off anybody that I've seen (something apparently common with borderline personality). I think her empathy and her compassion are huge assets. 

[dubbel zout]

I wonder if we didn’t see Naomi because Tovah Feldshuh was busy, but I agree a mention wouldn’t have been amiss.

[missnanners]

Mental illnesses are stigmatized in the world at large; BPD is often stigmatized in the mental health world.  As a therapist, I’ve worked in many agencies and clinics where staff has been exasperated by clients’ “attention seeking” behavior, and characterize them as manipulative.  Many feel that efforts are futile, as personality disorders are more ingrained, and often present with more resistance to treatment. Though I think having loving and good supports, insight, and the right treatment are huge advantages to a better prognosis.  

As someone else mentioned, BPD often overlaps with other diagnoses’ symptoms, as mood swings and impulsivity can look like Bipolar and anxiety disorders.  BPD is not characterized by episodes of “mania”, though regular behavior can resemble it.  And I’ve personally never associated lack of compassion with BPD, though I can see how the manipulation can convey them as self-centered.  I don’t really like the term manipulation, as it makes it seem like the person is some diabolical puppet master, when I think they usually act in whatever way gets the response they are seeking, because they don’t know how to get it in a healthy way.  

Edited November 20, 2017 by missnanners
Because commas are helpful.

[Snarklepuss]

On 11/19/2017 at 8:44 PM, chaifan said:

 I hope there's an episode where Paula realizes her boundary issues with Rebecca are not healthy.  Can't imagine what size truck it will take to hit her with for her to actually realize that, but still hoping.

I thought Paula already did that last season when she realized she had to find her own life instead of living hers around Rebecca's and enabling Rebecca's self destruction, which resulted in her to going to law school and backing way off from Rebecca.  I'm seeing this season's behavior as a regression into that former unhealthy behavior.  I don't think Paula knows how to be Rebecca's friend without going over the line into enabler.  She has to find the middle ground between smother-er and distancer.  I think she could benefit from some therapy herself.  Maybe Dr. Akopian is in her future?

[PumpkinPK]

Everyone on this forum loves this show so much that I feel I can't say what I think has become of it.  So I'll just say it is not for me anymore.  This is a completely different show than it started out as.

It's funny, for most of the shows that I enjoy the forums bring me down because people just trash said shows.  It's amazing how much people find wr9ng with them.  This show is just the opposite, it is unanimously loved but I am out.

On 11/19/2017 at 7:51 PM, txhorns79 said:

The only familiarity I had with it was from Winona Ryder's diagnosis in Girl Interrupted.  I never knew that there was any significant stigma attached to it. 

 

I had also heard of it from Girl, Interrupted and also when Ariana "diagnosed" Kristen with it on Vanderpump Rules.  Those are the only instances I have heard the term.

[quangtran]

23 hours ago, PumpkinPK said:

Everyone on this forum loves this show so much that I feel I can't say what I think has become of it.  So I'll just say it is not for me anymore.  This is a completely different show than it started out as.

Is it because the say been more "depressing" these days? I've been hearing a lot of comments from people who miss the more cheery earlier seasons. Maybe it's because I used to watch shows like the Leftovers, which wallowed in depression and sadness, but I don't think this show is all THAT different. It was always a darker show with a cheerful exterior, and one of the earliest jokes was how Rebecca inconvenienced a lot of people with her first suicide attempt, which directly carries overs to this current storyline. Or maybe is can't ever feel down about a show that can spin depression as a sexy French depression.

Edited November 22, 2017 by quangtran

[txhorns79]

Quote

Is it because the say been more "depressing" these days? I've been hearing a lot of comments from people who miss the more cheery earlier seasons. Maybe it's because I used to watch shows like the Leftovers, which wallowed in depression and sadness, but I don't think this show is all THAT different. It was always a darker show with a cheerful exterior, and one of the earliest jokes was how Rebecca's inconvenienced a lot of people with her first suicide attempt, which directly carries overs to this current storyline. Or maybe is can't ever feel down about a show that can spin depression as a sexy French depression.

I think the show has always had a dark undertone that has just come much more to the forefront with the current batch of episodes.  Even in the earliest episodes, Rebecca sings a cheery song about locking Valencia in a basement and wearing her skin in an effort to "become" Valencia.     

[Rinaldo]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I think the show has always had a dark undertone

Yes, and not even an undertone all the time, even at the beginning. The first thing we saw of Rebecca as an adult was her waking up to a life that looked dark and bleak to her, almost numbed, and soon having a kind of breakdown in an alley as she fumbled for her pills. The warmth and light that she saw in Josh was a contrast to everything else. So they never made it a secret that she had serious issues.

That said, I do understand the experience of finding that a series has taken a direction that no longer provides the pleasure it once did. Life is short, time is finite, and there's no reason to stick with something if it's stopped working for you. I myself have made that discovery about several other series recently, and have deleted the forums from my list and the recording instructions from my DVR. Why continue, when there are so many other choices?

[DianeDobbler]

Yes, I agree with those who don't think the show has changed, who see this is as an earned evolution. Rebecca was a hollow-eyed mess when we met her, an insomniac who disassociated and damn near hallucinated when offered a partnership, was near-literally choking on it, and saw a lifeline in Josh Chan. As Aline Bosh McKenna said, she's been tumbling down and sort of grabbing onto branches and shrubs along the way.  We learned in the very first episode that she'd had a suicide attempt, and we saw her pouring what seemed to be the contents of almost half a dozen bottles of pills into her garbage disposal. We've also seen that she knocks back the wine when she's miserable.

The show isn't without flaws, but I'm finding most of them in listening to the show runners versus what I actually see on screen, although I think there are issues with Paula on screen. I think in the first season she had to set up boundaries between herself and Rebecca, and in this past episode she is worse than she's ever been, without us even knowing why or seeing her fall back. I mean, at least have her husband remark that he thought she was going to put some distance, and let's see how Paula reacts to that.

The other thing is Brosh McKenna said we'd be exploring Josh, that he'd be finding out who he is, because he's defined himself by being the romantic object of this incredible, charismatic woman (who is out of his league, she implies). I disagree. The show has defined him that way and hasn't let us get to know him very well outside it, but he certainly hasn't defined himself that way. He's spent a very limited amount of time on Crazy Ex Girlfriend aware of the extent of Rebecca's obsession with him.  If he defined himself via Rebecca, he'd have gone through with the wedding. He ran for dear life.  Prior to that he told Father Brah it had to work because "It's the only thing going on in my life right now." But that's not the same thing.

Anyway. Actually the only time Crazy Ex Girlfriend has ever made me ask "WTF" was when a homeless woman asked Rebecca for some money and she said, "I only have 20s. Which I got by WORKING."  I was - oh, we're that type of show. Maybe it's not for me. But then they never cycled back to that angle of Rebecca, who has never seemed the type to say something like that (I'd love to have a more general discussion of the show but don't see a general discussion thread!)

Edited November 21, 2017 by DianeDobbler