S04.E05: Girls Night Out

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 hours ago, DearEvette said:

The guys story could have stayed the same, because let's face it, Drunk Barry is the BEST Barry. 

He really is! And I would have loved (and wanted) to have him belt out some tunes a capella! Like, oh, I don't know, "My heart will go on" since he had Jack and Rose on the brain! ????

Edited November 8, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[KillahBee007]

I watched this episode for Felicity and Iris and came away mostly disappointed. It seemed odd (and I say this as a person who doesn’t watch this show) that Iris asked Caitlin to be her MOH when it was just discussed that they were barely work friends. I mean I guess. 

I love me some FS but the writing for her was mostly if not all terrible. She is more than a quippy character but that’s a discussion for another day and forum. 

Frankly? This episode should’ve been billed as a primary KF episode and saved me some time. 

[Lantern7]

Iris tapping Caitlin as maid of honor makes sense. There aren't any women at STAR Labs. Was Iris expected to ask Felicity? "Ohmigawd, I am touched! But I'm busy with Team Arrow. And the startup with Curtis. And the hours-long sex sessions with Oliver. That reminds me . . . me and Curtis came up with a few devices for your honeymoon night, in case Barry vibrates too quickly. He can't have another death on his conscience."

[Lady Calypso]

41 minutes ago, RedVitC said:

Now that I write this, I realize that they probably did tell the guys about Amunet at least (and probably the meta). That's what Caitlin was telling the group at the end as the camera panned away. There's no way she could have told that the story of how she got into this mess and not mentioned Amunet.

Oh. True. I guess they finally did do the right thing. Well, at the very least, Joe doesn't know yet, since he went home and Cecile didn't tell him. But I totally forgot about that moment. I'll need confirmation at some point that Caitlin did tell them the entire story, but assuming that it's true, my anger has subsided a little bit, in terms of the boys not knowing.

[sarthaz]

Lady Team Flash has learned from the best: when you have the super villain at a disadvantage and can easily subdue her for capture, what you want to do is stand idly by while she and her henchmen run off.  This tactic is best employed when the villain literally threatens to come back and harm you if you let her go.

[quarks]

After sleeping on it, I've decided that I'm angry about this episode.

Good things:

1. Drunk Barry sobbing about Rose and Jack. That was hilarious.

2. Joe admitting that he's terrified about being a father again. Jesse Martin continues to sell this show.

3. Harry casually pulling everyone out of jail.

4. Flash finally letting the two main women on the show be friends. In season four, but let's try not to quibble too much, or note that Legends of Tomorrow did this in three episodes with Zari and Amaya.

5. Cisco looking at Killer Frost and saying, yeah, not now, too tired for this.

6. Katie Sackhoff - the character was questionable, but the actress was clearly having a lot of fun with the role, and her objection to the "ma'am" thing was fun.

7. Felicity complaining about Star Labs' security. And this from the woman who works in a "secret" hideout that really ought to just open a coffee bar for villains at this point.  When she has issues, Barry, you need to consider a lock.

Questionable things:

1. The guys agreeing to surrender their cellphones - and Barry not grabbing them back. Come on.  Joe is a cop; the rest of them know that Central City is attacked every Tuesday night until May. 

2. Iris, after not reaching Barry with a regular phone call, not texting Barry with a quick explanation of what was going on.

3. So, you are a villain with a METAL THING and you decide that the best place to hang up your new metahuman is in a steel processing place that presumably has all kinds of things that can be used against metal?

4. I get that they're used to metahumans, but no one is noticing a giant floating chair zipping around Central City?  Nothing popping up on ARGUS' radar, even though we know, in canon, that ARGUS keeps an eye on Central City?

Bad things:

1. Flash, if you were going to give Ralph Dibny the personality of

Spoiler

Plastic Man, why didn't you just go with Plastic Man?

  Apart from the nose thing, this is not Ralph Dibny.  

2. Also, Ralph Dibny.

3. Can the writers/showrunners sit down and create some sort of Bible that explains how Caitlin's split personality/memories work?  This seems to change every episode.

4. Did I mention, Ralph?

5. If Caitlin can create ice daggers, why can't she create ice handcuffs to trap Metal Lady?

6. I didn't really like Ralph.

7. An episode supposed to be centered on Girl Power HASHTAG FEMINISM in case you missed it instead ends up emphasizing just how much this show has and continues to underuse women.  Four years into the show, we find out that Iris has so few friends that her bachelorette party is her soon to be stepmother, a coworker who later points out that they aren't really friends, and a character from another show, even as the guy on the show has no problems pulling together a bachelor party. And it's not just the party, either - she has so few friends that even with her wedding coming up in just a few weeks, she still doesn't have a maid of honor. I know that picking the maid of honor/bridesmaid at the last minute is a television cliche, but here it just emphasized that warm, friendly Iris, apparently has no friends, even though she should have plenty. The show just hasn't bothered to give her any.  (Felicity and Oliver, meanwhile, managed to find some extras to pull into their engagement party a couple of seasons ago, suggesting that they do occasionally meet people when not trying to put arrows into stunt guys.)  It didn't help to have the script admit that four years into the show, the only two women regulars still aren't friends but now might become friends.  The guys have three metahumans, none of whom need to turn evil to use their powers; the girls have one.  Barry generally gets to completely defeat/lock up his villains; the girls let their villains get away. And everything BkWurm1 mentioned about how they confronted Metal Girl in the first place. 

And then this:

STRIPPERS ARE GOOD IT'S A POWERFUL THING I'M STUDYING THE MALE GAZE OK

ACTUALLY NO I AM NOT I'M DOING THIS FOR ALL THE WRONG REASONS THANK YOU SO MUCH OH MALE FATHER FIGURE FOR POINTING THIS OUT.

8. Also, Ralph.

[Commando Cody]

I felt bad for Iris for not really getting her bachelorette party. I thought maybe they would try and reschedule. 

Just a terrible episode in general with a couple of amusing parts. 

Barry going to the bar for peanuts. I liked that they showed the motion that he actually left for a moment. I had to rewind to figure out what he was saying about Jack and Rose and a door. I didn't know what that meant until I read the other comments here. Yelling out in the bar that he's The Flash was hilarious. 

The rest of the episode was crap. Hashtag girlpower... really?  Then we see the daughter in the bar stripping, which is kind of an old TV trope. So no shock value there. I don't know if attitudes or things have changed at all about female strippers, but I used to know a former stripper. She would get pretty upset if she found out if any of the men she knew went to a strip bar. So apparently, her time at it was horrible. 

I'm trying to figure out the ages of these people. Joe says he if almost 50. He must have been really young when Iris was born. And his girlfriend, with the college age stripper daughter, now having another baby. I'm pretty sure she's nowhere near 50. 

It is kind of too bad they didn't do a two-parter like the TV show Leverage did. It was the same night, but they had a boys night out and a girls night out, however they were two separate episodes. Maybe they could have written in some fun for Iris instead of the immediate summoning of Killer Frost at the dinner table. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

Random question: did the show explain what happened to Julian?

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

Could they have incapacitated Amunet and the thugs? Yes, easily, effortlessly as a matter of fact with zero risk to anyone. The thugs were just a bunch of bog standard humans Frost could have taken down (without killing I might add) with a wave of her hand and Amunet was just reduced to the same

Really?  You know that for sure?  You're positive that Amunet, a meta who's gone under the radar for three years and we know very little about had absolutely no other tricks or abilities she could have employed?  Because I'm not.  You're also completely certain that Killer Frost could have incapacitated every last one of Amunet's thugs (included some on the perimeter that were likely coming back in reaction to the sounds of combat and who could easily have been setting up to hose down the girls with bullets)?  Because again, I'm not.  Neither was Iris.  And Iris knew that.  The "mission" at that point was to get the Weeper out of Amunet's hands.  Getting "greedy" and trying to take everything down could result in the girls losing everything, including their lives.  Also, while Iris managed to talk Killer Frost down from murdering Amunt in "cold blood,"  who knows if Killer Frost would have restrained herself in the face of Amunet an her goons trying to kill her and the other women?  Again, Iris did not know that, so she wisely took the win she got and put Amunet on the Team Flash "to do" list.

[TV Anonymous]

Well, I find that Emily Bett Rickards' bikini / bra tan line distracting...

Amunet's metal pieces are alloy of aluminium, nickel and cobalt? So how does an industrial magnet affect them? If the magnet is strong enough to affect non-ferrous metal, how is it that various things made of iron / steel are not affected, including the zipper of Caitlin / Killer Frost's jacket?

And a facepalm once again for a super hacker, IT professional Felicity Smoak that is also an expert in neurochemistry.

[Rachel RSL]

Other than Drunk Barry (which is the BEST version of Barry ever), everything about this episode irritated me. Was this supposed to be an episode that makes the female fans feel represented or empowered? Because all I watched was an episode about 4 idiot women who went out to catch a supervillain even though they had no real way of doing that and then ended up letting her get away along with the meta they were trying to protect. All I saw was one big FAIL and 4 idiot women congratulating themselves about it. 

And, really, the only friends Iris has are a woman who is barely her work friend, a woman who only recently started dating her dad, and a woman who lives in another city? She didn't have even one other friend from childhood, or college or previous jobs? Ditto Barry.  That bugged me way more than it should have.

I'm iffy on Ralph. There are moments he amuses me. Like when KF turned back into Caitlyn and he was all disappointed: Ohhhhhh, it's just Caitlyn :(  

Edited November 8, 2017 by Rachel RSL

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I totally get this, but my feelings on this matter are that the girls have Killer Frost, a metahuman, to take down the goons while they incapacitate Amunet

The girls weren't armed at that point.  What makes you think they could incapacitate Amunet?  Sure, Amunet pretty much just used her metal powers, but maybe she was also a 10th degree black belt.  Or had a gun/knife she hadn't pulled yet.  Or any one of a number of things that might have left Felicity and Iris dead on the floor while Killer Frost was taking down the goons.

 

4 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Also, the fact that none of the women told the men of the situation, because Amunet is still out there!

Iris clearly delayed telling Barry the whole story about their night to let Caitlin/Killer Frost have her moment.  Iris isn't Barry or one of the guys.  She doesn't stupidly hold back important information.  While we didn't see it right that very second, we can assume that Iris has already briefed or will brief the rest of Team Flash about Amunet.

 

4 hours ago, benteen said:

As is the bachelorette party wasn't an indication, Iris choosing Caitlin as her maid of honor proves that she has no friends whatsoever.

Iris probably has friends, but no real close friends at this point.  She has too much stuff in her life that she can't share with them.  Generally the more involved you get with the weird/super stuff, the fewer normal/mundane ties you maintain.  Iris has likely quit her job at the paper by this point and let those relationships lapse because she wouldn't be able to come up with decent explanations for why she when her phone went off she had to leave an editorial meeting and haul ass to Star Labs.

Also, do you really want a situation with Iris bringing in somebody and going "Hey, guys, this is Blank Namey.  She's going to be my maid of honor because she's my superest, duperest, ooperest, pooperest bestest friend ever despite the fact that I've never so much as mentioned her in passing in the 3+ seasons this show has been on the air."  Linda's been gone for quite some time (and she was briefly Barry's girlfriend).  So has Patty (and she was also Barry's girlfriend).  Cecile is both pregnant and has a lot of other shit on her plate with her job and stripper daughter.  So should Iris pick Felicity, who lives in another city?  Gypsy, who lives in another dimension?  How about Jesse, who not only lives in another dimension but also just broke up with Wally, her brother?  Maybe they could let Peek-a-boo out of the Pipeline?  I grant that Caitlin normally wouldn't be the best choice, but she's probably the best choice Iris has right now.  And if it helps jumpstart their relationship as real friends as well as coworkers, that's not such a bad thing.

[Argenta]

26 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Iris probably has friends, but no real close friends at this point.  She has too much stuff in her life that she can't share with them.  Generally the more involved you get with the weird/super stuff, the fewer normal/mundane ties you maintain.  Iris has likely quit her job at the paper by this point and let those relationships lapse because she wouldn't be able to come up with decent explanations for why she when her phone went off she had to leave an editorial meeting and haul ass to Star Labs.

Also, do you really want a situation with Iris bringing in somebody and going "Hey, guys, this is Blank Namey.  She's going to be my maid of honor because she's my superest, duperest, ooperest, pooperest bestest friend ever despite the fact that I've never so much as mentioned her in passing in the 3+ seasons this show has been on the air." 

Amen to this. There have been quite a few complaints about the main characters having no friends outside Team Flash, but really, I think most viewers would be more unhappy if random never-before-seen people were dragged in for the sake of it and either a) hung around doing nothing of substance or b) did something of substance, and in doing so took action and screen time away from the regulars. 

I feel like the writers can't win in this situation, but for my money, they made the right call. 

Overall, I thought this was a very fun and funny episode, despite the flaws. I was concerned about the strip club setting because it seemed tacky and potentially disloyal to their girlfriends for the guys to go somewhere like that, but I think it was handled tastefully and they ended up there mostly by accident, anyway...

The only bum note for me was Amunet. I didn't like her accent, mannerisms, makeup or outfit. 

[Rachel RSL]

9 minutes ago, Argenta said:

Amen to this. There have been quite a few complaints about the main characters having no friends outside Team Flash, but really, I think most viewers would be more unhappy if random never-before-seen people were dragged in for the sake of it and either a) hung around doing nothing of substance or b) did something of substance, and in doing so took action and screen time away from the regulars. 

 

I have to disagree. When a character on a tv show has a special occasion like a wedding or bachelorette party, we expect to see non-regulars, at least a few extras milling around in the background. It doesn't mean we expect random Blank Namey to suddenly have a major storyline. In fact, hanging around doing nothing of substance is kind of what viewers would expect. It makes you wonder why Barry & Iris were all freaked out about finding a wedding venue. If they don't have even a single friend to invite to either of their parties, who do they plan on inviting to the wedding? They might as well have it in the control room at Star Labs.

[EmilyBettFan]

I wish the writers would write Felicity better. Emily is great but there's just so much you can do if you are given sub-par material. We all know she can elevate the heck out of most scripts she gets. But, the flash people need to do better.

I like Caitlyn/KF. She turns it up when she plays evil. 

I'm sorry Iris is so bland. They are shoehorning her into being a team leader like that.

Edited November 8, 2017 by EmilyBettFan

[Rascotes]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Random question: did the show explain what happened to Julian?

All I heard was he "moved back to England."  I doubt we will get more than that.

 

As to the episode itself, I thought this was probably the weakest episode of the entire series.  If this were the first Flash episode I came across I would definitely not come back for more.  Frankly, the people behind this one should be embarrassed about this effort. #Feminism

[BkWurm1]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Random question: did the show explain what happened to Julian?

 

I honestly don't recall if they did or not.  The producers announced preseason he wasn't coming back.  If there was anything in the show it was a one off line about yep, he's gone.  

 

12 minutes ago, EmilyBettFan said:

I'm sorry Iris is so bland. They are shoehorning her into being a team leader like that.

   I like Iris and the potential of her being team leader is there but they keep going about it poorly.  Iris is smart, organized, level-headed and confident.  BUT the show also keeps showing her to be really reckless and unnecessarily so.  They are basically still damseling her but trying to wrap it up in a better package.  But if she still needs to get rescued after putting herself in the very situation that she needs rescuing from, it's not empowering.  Is it supposed to be better that this time it was KF, a woman, that did the rescuing?  She should be too smart for this.  They didn't even pretend that Iris had faith that Caitlin would show up.  They just got lucky.  She deserves better writing than that.  

 

1 hour ago, Argenta said:

Amen to this. There have been quite a few complaints about the main characters having no friends outside Team Flash, but really, I think most viewers would be more unhappy if random never-before-seen people were dragged in for the sake of it and either a) hung around doing nothing of substance or b) did something of substance, and in doing so took action and screen time away from the regulars. 

My objection isn't that they don't have friends outside of the show but that Barry has a complete roster of friends within the show while Iris only had Barry and family (and it could be argued Barry was family) and it took 4 years in to make friends with the only other female regular on the show.  That's appalling.  Always has been.  And if they weren't going to give her friends on screen the least they could do is mention them existing off screen.   

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Rachel RSL said:

I have to disagree. When a character on a tv show has a special occasion like a wedding or bachelorette party, we expect to see non-regulars, at least a few extras milling around in the background

I'm pretty sure we'll see quite a few extra and minor characters doing that.  Still, maid of honor is a pretty big deal and really should go to a main/major character.  We might end up getting Gypsy and even Linda as bridesmaids (possibly Jesse, but I kind of doubt it given the Wally situation).  Cisco will certainly be the best man with maybe Harry and maybe Jax as groomsmen (hopefully not Ralph, he's a bit too new for that, though I hope he's invited so he can hit on Amaya, Sara and Zari and get bounced around like a super ball.

[Rachel RSL]

3 minutes ago, johntfs said:

I'm pretty sure we'll see quite a few extra and minor characters doing that. 

Which is why it's weird that they had no friends to invite to their parties. If you have no friends to invite to wedding-related events, how do you have friends to invite to the actual wedding? I don't think it would have made sense for Gypsy to be the MOH. Iris barely knows her. Frankly, I would have preferred her MOH to be some random friend we'd never heard of...like someone said above, Iris can have friends that exist offscreen. (Except apparently she doesn't.) Why would Jax be in the wedding at all? Since when are he and Barry close? 

[benteen]

1 hour ago, Rachel RSL said:

I have to disagree. When a character on a tv show has a special occasion like a wedding or bachelorette party, we expect to see non-regulars, at least a few extras milling around in the background. It doesn't mean we expect random Blank Namey to suddenly have a major storyline. In fact, hanging around doing nothing of substance is kind of what viewers would expect. It makes you wonder why Barry & Iris were all freaked out about finding a wedding venue. If they don't have even a single friend to invite to either of their parties, who do they plan on inviting to the wedding? They might as well have it in the control room at Star Labs.

This.

I understand the reason that Caitlin is Iris's maid of honor on the show but it still shows how friendless Iris is.  Iris and Caitlin have had a nice moment here and there but they have been work colleagues and little more over the course of the show's run.

It seems whether the writer is male or female, The Flash has done a LOUSY job at developing their female characters.

[WindofChange]

4 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

And a facepalm once again for a super hacker, IT professional Felicity Smoak that is also an expert in neurochemistry.

Well Felicity is a genius and has other interests than just computers... She's always shown an interest in science in general so it's not really that far fetched. 

[Lantern7]

22 minutes ago, benteen said:

I understand the reason that Caitlin is Iris's maid of honor on the show but it still shows how friendless Iris is.  Iris and Caitlin have had a nice moment here and there but they have been work colleagues and little more over the course of the show's run.

It seems whether the writer is male or female, The Flash has done a LOUSY job at developing their female characters.

That reminds me: how does Iris make money? Is she still a journalist? Or does she tap into STAR Labs for coordinating Team Flash/Team Kid Flash? This doesn't keep me up at night, but if she had friends, they might raise an eyebrow over her perceived career path.

[TV Anonymous]

Oh, I forgot this one. If Caitlin was so desperate to suppress Killer Frost that she went to Amunet for help, why did she not just wear the glowing bracelet or necklace that Cisco gave her again? 

[RedVitC]

20 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

That reminds me: how does Iris make money? Is she still a journalist? Or does she tap into STAR Labs for coordinating Team Flash/Team Kid Flash? This doesn't keep me up at night, but if she had friends, they might raise an eyebrow over her perceived career path.

Candice mentioned in an interview during comic-con that Iris is still a journalist, so until the show mentions anything that's what I'm sticking with. I think the bigger questions is how everyone else makes money, apart from Joe. I guess Barry pays them a salary? (in which case the constant joining and leaving of team members must be a headache for his administration)

 

As for the friends thing, I can't be too worked up about it anymore. People get mad that they haven't been interacting, but people also get mad that they're becoming friends because it's too late or something. So there really is no way to please everyone. Idk why to get extra worked up about it now that they're actually trying to address it.

Edited November 8, 2017 by RedVitC

[Rachel RSL]

I think it's probably because most viewers, at least I know that I personally did, assumed that Iris had friends and a life outside of Barry but this episode clearly demonstrated that isn't the case. I don't think anybody is upset that they're trying to make Iris & Caitlyn friends in general. 

[Chick2Chic]

IMO, this ep was terribly dull. I was mostly bored throughout GNO for various reasons. I was also super annoyed that what should've been Iris's night and focus on Iris for her bachelorette party became an ep about Caitlin/Killer Frost. UGH. I had worried that Felicity coming over would mean her eating up all the screentime like she tends to do on Arrow but nope, it was Caitlin eating up the screentime. That was a huge disappointment. This entire ep was just completely underwhelming and unfortunate save a few funny moments. 

[quarks]

3 hours ago, Argenta said:

Amen to this. There have been quite a few complaints about the main characters having no friends outside Team Flash, but really, I think most viewers would be more unhappy if random never-before-seen people were dragged in for the sake of it and either a) hung around doing nothing of substance or b) did something of substance, and in doing so took action and screen time away from the regulars. 

Well, two things here:

1) As others have noted, television shows pretty much always drag in random extras as guests at weddings and parties - see Monica and Chandler's wedding, where the couple who pretty much only hung out with the same group of six people suddenly had about 200 friends at their wedding.  Arrow's done this on several occasions - a bunch of random friends showed up to Sara's welcome home party in season two (and then failed to notice when she died again, but let's move on) and more random people showed up to Oliver and Felicity's engagement party in season 4 even though those two really don't seem to be socializing much outside the Arrow Cave either. So having random people show up in the background is sort of expected. Barry's been openly working with the Central City police department for years now, so I'd assume several cops/significant others are going to be invited. That doesn't bug me.

2) What does bug me is that Flash has had three years to provide Iris with friends - either by, I dunno, letting the two main women in the cast be friends, or by having Iris do pretty much what the cast members on Friends did - casually and briefly mention other friends in conversation.  "Just got back from lunch with Linda."  "I'm going dress shopping with Mary - you remember her, from high school?"  And this hasn't happened.

[Argenta]

4 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

I have to disagree. When a character on a tv show has a special occasion like a wedding or bachelorette party, we expect to see non-regulars, at least a few extras milling around in the background. It doesn't mean we expect random Blank Namey to suddenly have a major storyline. In fact, hanging around doing nothing of substance is kind of what viewers would expect. It makes you wonder why Barry & Iris were all freaked out about finding a wedding venue. If they don't have even a single friend to invite to either of their parties, who do they plan on inviting to the wedding? They might as well have it in the control room at Star Labs.

I`d say the actual wedding is quite different from the bachelor/ette parties. Weddings generally have more invitees, including relatives who aren`t necessarily that well-known to the bride or groom personally, and various people`s significant others. The bachelor stuff, on the other hand, tends to be a much smaller and more intimate group consisting of the couple`s closest friends. So I would expect to see background people at the wedding, but not necessarily  before it. 

Thinking about it further, it`s pretty easy to fill church pews with extras and just have them as faces in the background. It would have been a lot harder to have background-only people at the parties - they`d have to have actually been part of the group, i.e. sitting at the dinner table with Iris & co, or arriving at Joe`s house and watching home videos with Barry`s group. You can`t just bring complete strangers in to do stuff like that.

I do agree that Iris and Caitlin should have interacted and formed a meaningful relationship way earlier in the show. But they didn`t, and all the writers can do now is try to amend this going forward. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Argenta

[Trini]

7 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

I'm trying to figure out the ages of these people. Joe says he if almost 50. He must have been really young when Iris was born. And his girlfriend, with the college age stripper daughter, now having another baby. I'm pretty sure she's nowhere near 50. 

I think for Joe and Cecile, the show is making the characters' ages the same as the actors' ages. J.L. Martin is 48; Danielle Nicolet will be 44 this month.

Barry was stated to be 25 in season 1, and I assume he and Iris are supposed to be the same age. So if Iris is 28 now in Season 4, Joe was 20 when she was born.

[ICantDoThatDave]

I've been waning on The Flash for a while, especially after last season, which I thought was just terrible overall, but this was it for me.  About 3/4 through the episode I deleted it from my DVR.  I mean I watched the whole episode, but I was like "this is godawful. I'm out."

 

The OMG Girl Power!  The terrible dialogue.  The letting the villain go.  The Killer Frost inconsistencies.  The Felicity terribleness (I still watch Arrow, Felicity fan here).  Not to mention introducing a baby, which is the harbinger of death for most shows.  This had been building for a while but it's time, for me,  It's time.  *sigh* This episode was the tipping point.  I'm done.  RIP Flash on my DVR.

[tennisgurl]

Really, I am just thrilled at Ralph's "awwww its just Caitlin" reaction to Killer Frost becoming Caitlin, because that means we probably wont get a painfully forced Caitlin/Ralph romance. Not every new guy in the team HAS to hook up with Caitlin! 

Now, Ralph can meet a nice woman named Sue and he can abandon his more sleazy side and they can have a long happy life together, where no one gets pointlessly raped or mind wiped or murdered by their friends crazy ex in a convoluted plot to get him back or get their life ruined or turned into ghosts or anything. 

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Not every new guy in the team HAS to hook up with Caitlin! 

Now, Ralph can meet a nice woman named Sue and he can abandon his more sleazy side and they can have a long happy life together, where no one gets pointlessly raped or mind wiped or murdered by their friends crazy ex in a convoluted plot to get him back or get their life ruined or turned into ghosts or anything.

Or Ralph could hook up with Killer Frost instead.

[Lokiberry]

Why were they beating the Weeper guy to get his tears? Couldn't they just force him to chop onions at gunpoint? I mean, if they kept abusing him, they were risking his life, and then where would they get their drugs?

This was a mixed bag for me. The bachelor party was fun, up until Cecile's daughter turned out to be a stripper because #feminism. The ladies night out was fun, but they kept doing one stupid thing after another. Was I suppose to think this was wacky?

I'm enjoying Ralph Dibney, anyway.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

On 11/7/2017 at 8:04 PM, mtlchick said:

Drunk Barry is the best Barry.  "Why didn't Rose make room for Jack on the door" had me DYING.  

I didn't understand that reference at all [ETA:  got it now, after a little trip around the Flash forum interwebz], but that combined with the "I, just, really like chicken wings so much!" had me in stitches.  Not to mention "I'm the Flash!  WHOO!!".  *rofl*

I don't care if the comedy is a bit over the top too much, sometimes  -  this current iteration of the show is light years better than the vast majority of the past two seasons.  The humor actually makes me literally laugh now, instead of rolling my eyes out my head like "eye-hole".

ETA:  Oh, and also, I've seen some telegraphed future storylines before, but you can tie me up and call me Sally if Amunet's "take something from you" kinda promise to Caitlin/KF ends up being something other than that she'll use her meta ability to shoot Cecile in the tummy with something metal and kill her & Joe's baby - or, at the very least, will threaten to do just that.

Edited November 9, 2017 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[Mellowyellow]

Finally watched this episode.

I didn't love it, I didn't loathe it. It was ok. I didn't enjoy it as much as some other episodes of Flash this season. 

One thing I did enjoy was the friendship chemistry between Felicity and Iris. I know Felicity lives in a different city but I could totally have bought Felicity being Iris's MoH. I understood why they made Caitlin MoH but those two do not have good onscreen chemistry!

It was quite a contrast watching their ending scene to the ones with Felicity and Iris. I found it weird because when the camera was focused on their expressions, in seperate shots, both women seemed fairly warm towards each other but their body language was so distant! Any avid Flash fans know if CP and DP are friendly in real life? Surely they could have received directions to stand closer. It stood out as odd to me because Iris and Felicity always stood so close during their interactions and seemed very comfortable with each other.

If anything I am going to be watching Iris and Caitlin with hawk eyes from now on to see if they are going to successfully turn into friends. 

I managed to suspend disbelief and look the other way for most of the episode (haha I do it for ALL of the Arrowverse shows) so I didn't quibble too much about anything else.

I just feel like it could have been so much better! So much more fun, better plot, better use of characters. 

[ruby24]

17 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

One thing I did enjoy was the friendship chemistry between Felicity and Iris. I know Felicity lives in a different city but I could totally have bought Felicity being Iris's MoH. I understood why they made Caitlin MoH but those two do not have good onscreen chemistry!

It was quite a contrast watching their ending scene to the ones with Felicity and Iris. I found it weird because when the camera was focused on their expressions, in seperate shots, both women seemed fairly warm towards each other but their body language was so distant! Any avid Flash fans know if CP and DP are friendly in real life? Surely they could have received directions to stand closer. It stood out as odd to me because Iris and Felicity always stood so close during their interactions and seemed very comfortable with each other.

Oh, it TOTALLY stands out! The direct contrast btw Iris/Caitlin and Iris/Felicity in just this episode was stark. I'm gonna have to blame the actors on this one at least some- I don't think they could successfully sell this friendship even if they did try to write more scenes for them. There's just an obvious distance or indifference between those two people that clearly can't be overcome. The body language itself, it's like they couldn't bear to stand close to each other, even. Politeness is clearly the best they can manage.

It's kind of funny, because I've said before that I think DP is a very weak actress in general, so it's not like she's great with everyone else, but I do at least sense a warmth in her scenes with Cisco and Wells, for example, that I don't get with Iris. And Candice Patton I think IS a good actress, who's been good with the people she's paired with on the show, especially when they've given her more to do (I remember for example, how funny her and Cisco turned out to be in 2x21), but the same goes for her side in a scene with Caitlin- there's no warmth whatsoever coming from either of them.

[TwistedandBored]

Drunk Barry is the best Barry. It is okay Barry, I love chicken wings too.

I really hate the way the flash people write for Felicity. She is a genius idiots. However, I loved any time Iris and Felicity had a scene together. Candice and Emily have a great chemistry. You can tell these two are friends IRL. DP on the other hand makes me question her acting choices when it comes to Killer Frost vs Caitlin. Both versions are so robotic. 

Also, Katee Sackhoff did an awesome job. Can't wait to see her again. 

[Trini]

I think Danielle is fine as an actress; it's that they only occasionally give her stuff to work with. The only time I've had a problem with her is last season when she had scenes with Julian/Tom Felton, and it was clear that she was not feeling that love interest arc. (I mean, I wasn't feeling it either; but I'm not getting paid to portray it.)
 

20 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Oh, it TOTALLY stands out! The direct contrast btw Iris/Caitlin and Iris/Felicity in just this episode was stark. I'm gonna have to blame the actors on this one at least some- I don't think they could successfully sell this friendship even if they did try to write more scenes for them. There's just an obvious distance or indifference between those two people that clearly can't be overcome. The body language itself, it's like they couldn't bear to stand close to each other, even. Politeness is clearly the best they can manage.

Eh - I generally hate to speculate on actors' relationships when I really don't know these people.

[ruby24]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

Eh - I generally hate to speculate on actors' relationships when I really don't know these people.

I think it's fair sometimes. On these kinds of shows the personalities of the actors can bleed into the characters over time, as they have to keep doing these long seasons. I've seen it over and over again. And again, even in just this episode, the chemistry btw Iris and Felicity was totally easy even though they've barely interacted before. It was easy to believe they had, based on how natural they were. But that Iris and Caitlin scene was just stiff and forced, especially in comparison. Very awkward.

I mean, this is just going off the top of my head, but for example, an actorly touch might have been for one of them to put their arm around the other as they head into the elevator, an extra squeeze as a sign of friendliness or warmth. Instead they stop touching as soon as possible and literally stand far apart when they enter it. They're doing the absolute minimum to get the scene over with, with no added touches to try to enhance the friendship.

[mac123x]

On 11/8/2017 at 9:04 AM, RedVitC said:

-Still not sure how I feel about the baby plot. 

Yeah, I'm not sure where they're going with that.

1.  Baby dies, causing angst and drama

2  Cecile dies but the baby lives, causing angst and drama

3.  Baby lives but is kidnapped by one of Barry's enemies, causing angst and drama, and taken to a hell dimension where time moves faster and returns as a teenager a la Angel's son

4.  Baby is born and nothing weird happens at all.

 

I was momentarily taken aback by Katee Sackoff's accent, mainly because I couldn't remember if she was British or not.  Then a few sentences later, it was obviously affected (badly).  Still she seemed to be having fun with it.

[ruby24]

I think the baby lives and nothing weird happens, it's just a side plot for Joe and the baby is offscreen most of the time.

I do wonder how that affects plans for

Spoiler

the Barry/Iris twins, since I think the diapers line from Barry in the premiere is still about that.

[quarks]

I think there are cases of actors who get along just fine, but are flat on the screen together, and, on the other hand, actors who have rumored or admitted huge BTS issues and/or who outright hate each other, but spark on the screen together. It's a weird thing. 

What's strange here is that DP is ok with the rest of the cast, and CP is fine to outstanding with the rest of the cast.  And yet, yeah, something is noticeably off here. It probably wouldn't have been as noticeably off here if I weren't watching the other three shows, but Arrow managed a more convincing moment of friendship between Felicity and Dinah last night with far less setup - those characters, in canon, have known each other for less than a year, seem to have nothing in common other than a tendency to hang out in a vigilante lair, and have never just hung out on screen together.  There's no in canon reason to think that they are actual friends. And yet, in about three seconds last night, I was like, huh, when did those two become friends? Two seconds later, I was convinced that they do occasionally get drinks together and complain about the painful footwear of the vigilante life. (Maybe stop wearing those stilettos, Felicity.)

And that was accomplished without any physical touches - just with Felicity showing that she understood what Dinah was trying to say, and Dinah looking at Felicity hoping for understanding, and getting it. So it can be done, even without "Are we friends?/We're not friends" anvils, and with two actresses less talented than CP (in my opinion.) And of course Supergirl and Legends of Tomorrow both showcased friendships between women that included hugs and casual touching and genuine support last week.

Though typing this out, I just realized the genuine difference between those three shows and Flash here: With the other three shows, the women were trusting each other with secrets/inner feelings - Lena with her confessions that she'd always hoped to be seen as a hero and now everyone thought she was a child killer, plus her guilt about that; Dinah and Zari both explaining things they did/felt in the past. With Iris and Caitlin, this just....wasn't there, partly because the confession of what happened in the past came from the Killer Frost side - the side not at all that interested in staying friends with anyone on Team Flash, much less Iris. The other shows allowed the women to show vulnerability with each other. That really hasn't happened on Flash, and I think that's the other reason why, apart from a potential chemistry issue, this "We're great friends now! Beer!" seemed a bit off. 

[WindofChange]

7 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I do wonder how that affects plans for

Spoiler

the Barry/Iris twins, since I think the diapers line from Barry in the premiere is still about that.

 

Spoiler

Why do you want them to have the Tornado twins? According to comic canon Iris only has the twins after she "dies"/heads to the future -- so why do you want this to happen to her?

[scarynikki12]

Do not discuss comics in episode threads.  If you want to make a short reference to something related to the comics, that's fine, but use spoiler tags.  If you notice another poster discussing the comics, or not using spoiler tags for short references, please use the Report function at the bottom of the relevant post.  It looks like a flag. 

[MissLucas]

I'm with Barry. 20 years ago upon leaving the cinema I was not in tears, just annoyed - there had been plenty of room on that door!

Edited November 12, 2017 by MissLucas

[phoenics]

On 11/9/2017 at 11:47 PM, ruby24 said:

I think it's fair sometimes. On these kinds of shows the personalities of the actors can bleed into the characters over time, as they have to keep doing these long seasons. I've seen it over and over again. And again, even in just this episode, the chemistry btw Iris and Felicity was totally easy even though they've barely interacted before. It was easy to believe they had, based on how natural they were. But that Iris and Caitlin scene was just stiff and forced, especially in comparison. Very awkward.

I mean, this is just going off the top of my head, but for example, an actorly touch might have been for one of them to put their arm around the other as they head into the elevator, an extra squeeze as a sign of friendliness or warmth. Instead they stop touching as soon as possible and literally stand far apart when they enter it. They're doing the absolute minimum to get the scene over with, with no added touches to try to enhance the friendship.

CP has wonderful chemistry with everyone else on set except DP, imo and I think there is a reason.  

I remember an interview from S1 where CP, CV and DP were being interviewed and the interviewer asked DP what her favorite pairing was and she said Snowbarry - when the show was right in the midst of doing Snowstorm.  CV and CP's faces went ice cold, even though they didn't say anything.  In another interview, DP said she liked it best when she was the only woman in Star Labs.

There were several problematic interviews DP gave over that time period.  Sev.er.al.  And you have to remember the deluge of racism, misogynoir and outright hatred that poor CP was dealing with, all while DP was basically campaigning to take over her lead spot by constantly - CONSTANTLY - pimping SB.

It's naive to think that none of that would impact their chemistry onscreen.  It was definitely noticeable.  Hell - even I haven't forgiven DP for all of that BS - so I'm sure CP - who was definitely affected by it - probably has had a hard time too.

Maybe they will get better going forward.

[Trini]

I was going to have a whole rant about everything wrong with the Caitlin/Killer Frost story, but ...

Essentially, 1) they failed to address or resolve issues from last season; 2) retconned several things; and 3) are still doing the things that don't make sense. This episode was more about "saving" Caitlin than stopping the villain -- which might have been fine (besides the misleading marketing), except, did they "save" Caitlin?? She and Iris are friends now (HARSH SIGH), but Killer Frost is still a part of her that Caitlin can't control.

And BTW, even Danielle doesn't have an explanation about the two personalities thing.

[johntfs]

13 hours ago, Trini said:

This episode was more about "saving" Caitlin than stopping the villain -- which might have been fine (besides the misleading marketing), except, did they "save" Caitlin?? She and Iris are friends now (HARSH SIGH), but Killer Frost is still a part of her that Caitlin can't control.

Maybe what they learned is that at this point they don't really need to "save" Caitlin from someone who is essentially a part of her - and who really isn't that bad when it really comes down to it.  As for Iris and Caitlin, I found their relative lack of friendship to this point somewhat realistic.  You probably have several colleagues/acquaintances at work, but how many of them are really freinds?  For the first three season Iris was Barry's crush object then girlfriend/fiance while Caitlin was somebody Barry worked with in his semi-secret ID as the Flash.  Iris know of Caitlin well enough to be cool with Barry inviting her to Christmas (Hell, Iris was even cool with accepting former asshole Julian at Christmas).  It's really only now that the writing directing has positioned Iris and Caitlin into an orbit that could really develop onto a friendship.

I will say that Iris asking Caitlin to be her Maid of Honor is probably premature at this point - because Maid of Honor is a huge responsibility that's a massive hassle.  My sister got that "job" once and it nearly drove her to madness.

[Trini]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

Maybe what they learned is that at this point they don't really need to "save" Caitlin from someone who is essentially a part of her - and who really isn't that bad when it really comes down to it. 

I have to disagree; she tried to murder several people several times, and was only unsuccessful because others intervened (because the writers didn't want to make her irredeemable*). Plus helping Savitar murder HR, and even though he was kinda undead, she killed Black Flash/Hunter.

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

As for Iris and Caitlin, I found their relative lack of friendship to this point somewhat realistic.  ...  It's really only now that the writing directing has positioned Iris and Caitlin into an orbit that could really develop onto a friendship.

Again I disagree. They had plenty of opportunity (and they always seem to have time for male bonding). Season 1 I could excuse this, but Season 2 (and 3) was the perfect time to build their friendship. Iris was finally in on the secret, both she and Caitlin had recently lost loved ones, and both had to deal with moving on from tragedy. Besides bare minimum, they could always do casual mentions of them hanging out offscreen, or have expository conversations happen between them instead of with others.

It's so transparent that the only reason Iris talked to/about Caitlin/KF so much in this single episode is because they needed Caitlin to be maid of honor. I'm not expecting any more interaction than before between them after this.
 

*Even though they managed to redeem other murderers like Capt. Cold and Harry.

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

I have to disagree; she tried to murder several people several times, and was only unsuccessful because others intervened (because the writers didn't want to make her irredeemable*). Plus helping Savitar murder HR, and even though he was kinda undead, she killed Black Flash/Hunter.

I'm not sure I blame her for killing Black Flash.  That said, wherever Frost's head space was last season, it's clearly not there now.  She's not really even Killer Frost, more Assault and Battery Frost.