S25.E09: Week 8: Trio Night

[calipiano81]

4 hours ago, tessaforever said:

I disliked a lot about her samba. And I noticed they didn't do samba rolls (man, I've been watching this show a long time. When I started I had never heard of a samba roll). Perhaps she can't do them because of her rib injury, but the judges usually expect them at this stage of the competition. Also I hated her fur trimmed shoes - like some maribou-trimmed slippers worn by a 70s housewife. 

In 25 seasons, the judges have never said or implied that they expect samba rolls in a samba. They don't actually have required elements for any of the dances (other than perhaps the ballroom dances having enough in hold/don't break hold); they just expect them to have proper content.

Mark admittedly doesn't like including samba rolls in his contestants' sambas. In all of the sambas he's done, he's only had a samba roll in his samba trio with Paige (which might have been the influence of Alan) and a "sorta" samba roll in his finals samba with Aly Raisman (at the special request of Bruno, who was the judge assigned to work with them on that dance).

Lindsey had some issues with the bounce and bringing her legs together at certain points, but I thought her content (I saw voltas, running promenades, botafogas, stationary walks) was fine.

Edited November 8, 2017 by calipiano81

[Coriandria]

The big issue I had with the Frankie narrative this week was that it felt really manipulative (the producers being manipulative that is).  I understand why people find "ringers" unfair especially when they have a favorite they are rooting for.  But what truly irked me was the fact that the show itself is trying to push this idea that Lindsey and Jordan having dance experience are having an easy time of things while everyone else struggles.  I have no doubt at this stage all the contestants are working incredibly hard.  Does Jordan/Lindsey have a leg up with their previous experiences? sure. 

But the thing is so does Frankie.  He was an actor which means he has a decent level of artistry and depending on the type of acting decent body control.  He was a race car driver which in actuality is very physically demanding not everyone realizes this but it is.  So he has strong physicality from that.  And he was a drummer in a band!  So not only strong musicality but musicality focused on rhythm.  Is it really any small wonder that with all these assets and the fact that he works really hard that he's able to pull off great routines on this show?  Nope not a shocker.

Now Frankie not realizing how all his previous experience helps him learn to dance is completely normal.  And having lack of confidence/low self-esteem is not uncommon.  So the things Frankie said I can totally get.  But did no one try to explain to him what his strengths are?  Did Whitney never express to him why his dances are getting scored high?  No? It's just a "well they are dancers it's an unfair competition." BS comment?  Now I'm not trying to through Whitney under a bus here.  I'm sure she said words of encouragement to Frankie in various ways but the producers choose to use the "it's so crazy that Jordan and Lindsey are allowed in this competition" to back up Val and Maks earlier comments.  There is a long term narrative they are trying to promote and it feels like they are actively trying to sabotage Jordan and Lindsey's position which makes little sense to me.  I don't get why they are actively doing this.

And again to be clear I like Frankie.  I'm personally rooting for Lindsey but if Frankie or Jordan won the whole thing I wouldn't be upset about it.  They are both great.  And I really don't think Frankie needs to be propped up in this way.  They could have done a really nice narrative about the importance of believing in yourself and realizing that everyone has strengths and weaknesses.  Not this BS "oh it's all unfair but we'll be the underdog that rises above" nonsense.

[tessaforever]

9 hours ago, Bridget said:

While I am shocked Drew is still around, I also give him major credit for being insulted each week during scoring and not complaining about it (at least that we've been privy to). Nick Lachey was worse than Drew and the judges were at least civil to him when they pointed out his plethora of mistakes. Len was right: keeping a strong frame/elbow is important, but Drew has improved a little bit each week, except for the never-speak-about-it-again Indiana Jones/Movie Night dance, whereas Nick couldn't keep up with the steps and made tons of mistakes, but I don't recall him being "spoken down to", insulted or criticized as harshly as Drew has been. 

Exactly! Think of how many times Len has said "You came out here...you gave it your best...I was greatly entertained. Now you do need to watch your right elbow during hold and sharpen up your footwork, but well done!" But no, Drew hears nothing but 100% negative comments from Len and sometimes Carrie Ann and Bruno too. For example, Victoria is really starting to not be able to keep up with the level of competition (the jive trio was terrible) but she was not spoken to harshly like Drew. And I'm not a huge Drew fan and I don't want him to win...I just want him to get the same courteous treatment the others do. 

6 hours ago, calipiano81 said:

I think they were being rushed along to go talk to Erin. It doesn't seem fair to judge something that happened so fast. Also, maybe she DOESN'T know Sasha very well and might have been caught off guard.

I think she doesn't know Sasha. I don't think he was on the show back when she was. It would have been a "social hug" for the sake of the cameras and I don't think Kristi is into that :)

5 hours ago, calipiano81 said:

In 25 seasons, the judges have never said or implied that they expect samba rolls in a samba. They don't actually have required elements for any of the dances (other than perhaps the ballroom dances having enough in hold/don't break hold); they just expect them to have proper content.

Mark admittedly doesn't like including samba rolls in his contestants' sambas. In all of the sambas he's done, he's only had a samba roll in his samba trio with Paige (which might have been the influence of Alan) and a "sorta" samba roll in his finals samba with Aly Raisman (at the special request of Bruno, who was the judge assigned to work with them on that dance).

Lindsey had some issues with the bounce and bringing her legs together at certain points, but I thought her content (I saw voltas, running promenades, botafogas, stationary walks) was fine.

Good point! I should have said: the judges are usually very pleased to see samba rolls, not that they expect them. Sorry :) I remember the ones with Aly and Paige and I know they take a lot of skill (as my dancer daughter explained to me, the dancers are changing their center of gravity in tandem, which is difficult) so I thought he might include them. There was definitely a lot of other samba content. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by tessaforever

[sinkwriter]

Quote

Exactly! Think of how many times Len has said "You came out here...you gave it your best...I was greatly entertained. Now you do need to watch your right elbow during hold and sharpen up your footwork, but well done!" But no, Drew hears nothing but 100% negative comments from Len and sometimes Carrie Ann and Bruno too. For example, Victoria is really starting to not be able to keep up with the level of competition (the jive trio was terrible) but she was not spoken to harshly like Drew. And I'm not a huge Drew fan and I don't want him to win...I just want him to get the same courteous treatment the others do. 

I think that's what has bothered me most this season. I'm rooting for Jordan, Lindsey and Frankie to be in the finals, but I don't think Drew has deserved the brutal commentaries he's received since week 1. I remember watching the premiere episode and wondering if Len was in a particularly bad mood or something, because I couldn't understand why on earth he was being so incredibly vicious in his comments to Drew. It was WEEK ONE! They're all new to it, and to my eyes, he did no worse or better than many of the other contestants. Plus, Drew seemed to have a good attitude and willingness to give it his all, even if it wasn't a great outcome. So I just couldn't understand why Len was being so cruel instead of at the very least offering the general "You came out and gave it your best, it wasn't great, but I like your attitude - now work on this and that" sort of critique. I'm baffled by it, truly. 

[crowceilidh]

As I've commented before, Len always has one person that he unfairly picks on, quite often a male PoC, so I'm just grateful that this time the victim is not.  On the other hand, I quite like Drew (don't really want him to win or anything) and I feel really sorry for him to have to have this experience in that position.  

[luvthepros]

18 hours ago, gohawks said:

I  honestly don't see Corbin having a large ego. I literally can't think of a moment when I thought he was anything other than humble and sweet-natured.

I agree. I visited Corbin's behind the scenes vlog when he was in the Broadway show, "Holiday Inn". He seemed so genuinely excited to be a part of the show and seemed very down to earth. I really liked his personality watching his vlog. Corbin was my favorite the season he partnered with Karina. He is quite a talented guy.

[luvthepros]

12 hours ago, IrishImport said:

Didn't anybody else see Kristi Yamaguchi totally diss Sasha at the top of the sky box stairs? Sasha was standing at the top, gave Lindsey a big hug, reached for Kristi and she blew right past him. Sideways. He had a funny look on his face. Then he gave Mark a quick man-hug.  Ouch, that was cold, Kristi.  Did she just blank out or does she not like him? Everybody likes Sasha! 

I noticed this altercation but I didn't know what to make of it.

[boyznkatz]

Drew sucks but I agree Len needs to get the poker out of his ass. No need for him to be rude. Who the hell is going to do this show if he acts like that?

[spanana]

9 hours ago, Coriandria said:

 Did Whitney never express to him why his dances are getting scored high?  No? It's just a "well they are dancers it's an unfair competition." BS comment?  Now I'm not trying to through Whitney under a bus here.  I'm sure she said words of encouragement to Frankie in various ways but the producers choose to use the "it's so crazy that Jordan and Lindsey are allowed in this competition" to back up Val and Maks earlier comments.  There is a long term narrative they are trying to promote and it feels like they are actively trying to sabotage Jordan and Lindsey's position which makes little sense to me.  I don't get why they are actively doing this.
 

I think it goes back to we don't know what Witney has told him or not.  We only see the 15-20 seconds TPTB choose for us to see and they are choosing that narrative.  For all we know she gave him a 20 minute discourse on his own attributes, but that isn't the story TPTB want to tell.

Edited November 8, 2017 by spanana

[Coriandria]

15 minutes ago, spanana said:

I think it goes back to we don't know what Witney has told him or not.  We only see the 15-20 seconds TPTB choose for us to see and they are choosing that narrative.  For all we know she gave him a 20 minute discourse or his own attributes, but that isn't the story TPTB want to tell.

Yes that was the point I was trying to make.  Whitney seems like a nice person from what I can tell and I imagine she routinely gives Frankie words of encouragement when they are working together.  But with all that potential footage that I'm somewhat guessing exists TPTB decided to throw Jordan and Lindsey under the bus with this "they shouldn't be here it's so easy for them" narrative that they have pushed 2 weeks in a row now.  And again this narrative was particularly problematic for Lindsey this week with it clouding the "is she or isn't she really injured" drama-llama.

[realdancemom]

1 hour ago, luvthepros said:

I agree. I visited Corbin's behind the scenes vlog when he was in the Broadway show, "Holiday Inn". He seemed so genuinely excited to be a part of the show and seemed very down to earth. I really liked his personality watching his vlog. Corbin was my favorite the season he partnered with Karina. He is quite a talented guy.

I thought Corbin was rehearsed and polished.  Growing up as a Disney kid, he knew how to answer interview questions.  I enjoyed watching Corbin during his season.  However, I also can see why Amber won.  I think the audience could relate to her more since she was bubbly and friendly while Corbin was guarded.  Glee was still popular at the time too.  Amber's freestyle was also different and Derek did a great job choregraphing it.  There are a lot of seasons where I'm just meh on the freestyles.  That season, I enjoyed Amber's, Corbin's, and Jack Osbourne's freestyles.  I think Cheryl did a great job with giving a fun routine that Jack could do.  

Out of all the trios, Corbin/Jordan/Lindsay's was the one that I was looking forward to.  They did not disappoint.  Jordan is just leagues ahead of everyone else technique wise.  I hope he makes the finals because Lindsay has created great freestyles that were suited to her stars even if they were not good dancers, e.g. Alek.  Now, she is free to choreograph one that is creative and difficult.  I like how she said that she choreographed the trio and just expected Corbin and Jordan to do it.

Except for Jordan and Terrell, I think the returning stars looked better than the existing ones.  Terrell was lucky because he didn't have to match Kelly.  Kelly had to match Cheryl and she was not good at doing that.  Agree that doing a rumba trio is not a good idea. 

Drew and Victoria looked really bad in their trios.  Drew looked like he was trying so hard to keep up.  It looked like he was about to trip.  There is also no way he was going to match Rashad's swagger.  He doesn't even have Rashad's natural rhythm.  Victoria's back spasms might have made her jive worse but her legs were just moving like noodles.  Her kicks and flicks were not sharp.  She has trouble performing so she wasn't going to match Laurie's infectious personality and performance.

Frankie and Lindsey were not too bad.  I agree with CAI.  Frankie and Alfonso don't dance alike at all.  Alfonso is a far better dancer and it looks like he toned it down.  Frankie mostly needs confidence.  I do think he said those comments about Jordan and Lindsey because of insecurity and not to throw shade.  I think Lindsey's injury might have hindered her.  Her shoulders were up, her posture was bad, and she didn't extend like Krisit did. 

 Mark knows how the show edits things.  But I can see his frustration.  Jordan and Lindsey are lumped together.  Both of them do have dance experience and have learned choreography.  However, Jordan has dance training while Lindsey doesn't.  Not sure how much training Jordan has though.  If I had to guess (not googling it), he might have went to a musical theater academy where he had to learn how to sing, dance, and act.  So he doesn't have as much dance experience as somebody who mostly took dance.  Because of their dance experience, the judges will critique them harder.  Both of them don't have to work harder to learn simple ballroom moves.  They have to work harder to do more difficult choreography and look effortless while doing it.   It is unfair if the judges are holding Lindsey to Jordan's standards.  While I agree with her samba scores, I do think she should have received at least two tens in her trio versus one.  I wouldn't have given a perfect score because of the problems I noted above. 

I think Drew or Victoria should have went before Terrell.  However, because of the stupid team dance scoring last week, I was afraid that Jordan or Lindsey had to leave.  So out of Team Monster Mash, I would rather TO left since I want to see Jordan and Lindsey's freestyles.

Edited November 8, 2017 by realdancemom

[calipiano81]

53 minutes ago, realdancemom said:

Jordan is just leagues ahead of everyone else technique wise. 

I have seen this hyperbole in many places and I personally don't agree. Jordan is the best technician, no doubt. But I think Lindsey is quite close behind, by inches, not this huge gap that is sometimes made out to be. And there have been a number of weeks where Lindsey's dances had a higher degree of difficulty and/or content than Jordan's, so while not perfect, she had more to contend with, which I give her credit for.

[realdancemom]

16 minutes ago, calipiano81 said:

I have seen this hyperbole in many places and I personally don't agree. Jordan is the best technician, no doubt. But I think Lindsey is quite close behind, by inches, not this huge gap that is sometimes made out to be. And there have been a number of weeks where Lindsey's dances had a higher degree of difficulty and/or content than Jordan's, so while not perfect, she had more to contend with, which I give her credit for.

I said this because Lindsey has trouble with basic dance technique  that would not need to be taught if she was dance trained.  I did say that both Jordan and Lindsey's choreography are more difficult than others.  I was actually trying to be fair with Lindsey by saying that she should not be held to the same standards as Jordan since she has dance experience but not dance training.

[majormama]

15 hours ago, IrishImport said:

Didn't anybody else see Kristi Yamaguchi totally diss Sasha at the top of the sky box stairs? Sasha was standing at the top, gave Lindsey a big hug, reached for Kristi and she blew right past him. Sideways. He had a funny look on his face. Then he gave Mark a quick man-hug.  Ouch, that was cold, Kristi.  Did she just blank out or does she not like him? Everybody likes Sasha! 

I did not notice this, and I didn't save the ep on my DVR to go back and watch for myself. But as described, I would totally be on Kristi's side. She is under no obligation to let a man touch her just because he leaned in for a hug. Not necessarily a dig on Sasha, because he seems to be a nice guy who is liked by most everyone. But this idea that women have to just accept male touch bothers me. Didn't John Travolta get into trouble at the Oscars or something a few years ago? He'd walk up to a young starlet and lean in for a kiss, and she'd either feel obligated to let him kiss her or be criticized for being unfriendly. It's not okay to just hug someone if they don't want it, nice guy or not.

[giaNtsandYankees]

11 hours ago, Coriandria said:

The big issue I had with the Frankie narrative this week was that it felt really manipulative (the producers being manipulative that is).  I understand why people find "ringers" unfair especially when they have a favorite they are rooting for.  But what truly irked me was the fact that the show itself is trying to push this idea that Lindsey and Jordan having dance experience are having an easy time of things while everyone else struggles.  I have no doubt at this stage all the contestants are working incredibly hard.  Does Jordan/Lindsey have a leg up with their previous experiences? sure. 

But the thing is so does Frankie.  He was an actor which means he has a decent level of artistry and depending on the type of acting decent body control.  He was a race car driver which in actuality is very physically demanding not everyone realizes this but it is.  So he has strong physicality from that.  And he was a drummer in a band!  So not only strong musicality but musicality focused on rhythm.  Is it really any small wonder that with all these assets and the fact that he works really hard that he's able to pull off great routines on this show?  Nope not a shocker.

Now Frankie not realizing how all his previous experience helps him learn to dance is completely normal.  And having lack of confidence/low self-esteem is not uncommon.  So the things Frankie said I can totally get.  But did no one try to explain to him what his strengths are?  Did Whitney never express to him why his dances are getting scored high?  No? It's just a "well they are dancers it's an unfair competition." BS comment?  Now I'm not trying to through Whitney under a bus here.  I'm sure she said words of encouragement to Frankie in various ways but the producers choose to use the "it's so crazy that Jordan and Lindsey are allowed in this competition" to back up Val and Maks earlier comments.  There is a long term narrative they are trying to promote and it feels like they are actively trying to sabotage Jordan and Lindsey's position which makes little sense to me.  I don't get why they are actively doing this.

And again to be clear I like Frankie.  I'm personally rooting for Lindsey but if Frankie or Jordan won the whole thing I wouldn't be upset about it.  They are both great.  And I really don't think Frankie needs to be propped up in this way.  They could have done a really nice narrative about the importance of believing in yourself and realizing that everyone has strengths and weaknesses.  Not this BS "oh it's all unfair but we'll be the underdog that rises above" nonsense.

I appreciate your comment, and I agree. If Witney said anything of the sort or agreed to anything from the, "It's an unfair competition" I would like to say that she didn't complain when she was paired up with Alfonso the season she won. When I saw the cast, I knew he had it in the bag because he was a household name. Yeah, he used to tap dance, but I believe his name and nostalgia got him the win. I can barely remember who was in the top 4 with him.

Sorry if I misinterpreted your comment.

Now Frankie's narrative does seem like a manipulation. This week, we see a clip of him going,"I was in the top spot...but I don't feel I belong there..." It was a little much for me personally. Especially after receiving tens for his previous dances, and the judges (Carrie Ann and Bruno mostly) getting extremely excited over it. Carrie Ann even told him that .He elevated dance" which again was a little much. But why can't he build confidence based on his place, comments or performances...or what he had overcome altogether. Nothing against Frankie honestly.

But what I'm really trying to understand is how some of Frankie's fans (and non fans I'm sure) dig into Jordan about being disingenuous about being a perfectionist, but don't say anything about Frankie's "I can't believe I'm in the top spot, but I'm sure I belong there..." They say, Jordan is an actor, so he could be faking. Well, isn't Frankie an actor as well?

I understand Jordan had training compared to Frankie having none, but he should try and take the scores, take the comments and build upon that. Just my opinion.

[Star Aristille]

7 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

I think that's what has bothered me most this season. I'm rooting for Jordan, Lindsey and Frankie to be in the finals, but I don't think Drew has deserved the brutal commentaries he's received since week 1.

He did it to Bonner Bolton last season, too.  It was a bit more deserved, as his dancing was subpar, and apparently, his attitude behind the scenes was terrible, but still . . . it made me cringe at times, especially when he outright told him he'd gotten too far.  (He had, but still . . . ouch to being told that on live TV.)

[calipiano81]

3 hours ago, realdancemom said:

I said this because Lindsey has trouble with basic dance technique  that would not need to be taught if she was dance trained.  I did say that both Jordan and Lindsey's choreography are more difficult than others.  I was actually trying to be fair with Lindsey by saying that she should not be held to the same standards as Jordan since she has dance experience but not dance training.

I appreciate your trying to be fair to Lindsey. I still don't think that Lindsey is that far behind Jordan technically, though. And the fact that she is able to accomplish the same level of choreography without formal dance training should be admirable and even impressive, but then it goes back to the old issue that the female celebs are held to a much higher standard than the male celebs on this show.

Edited November 9, 2017 by calipiano81

[littlecowgirl93]

4 hours ago, Coriandria said:

Yes that was the point I was trying to make.  Whitney seems like a nice person from what I can tell and I imagine she routinely gives Frankie words of encouragement when they are working together.  But with all that potential footage that I'm somewhat guessing exists TPTB decided to throw Jordan and Lindsey under the bus with this "they shouldn't be here it's so easy for them" narrative that they have pushed 2 weeks in a row now.  And again this narrative was particularly problematic for Lindsey this week with it clouding the "is she or isn't she really injured" drama-llama.

I know you aren’t saying that she wasn’t injured, but there was a lot of vicious comments, particularly on YouTube, where some commentors were saying that she was faking the whole thing for votes and publicity. So, like you said, this type of thing perpetuates those comments. Luckily, I haven’t seen anyone take those comments and apply it to her injury, yet. Regardless if you are a fan or not, you could tell she was in pain when she danced. It was not hard to see.

[realdancemom]

20 minutes ago, calipiano81 said:

I appreciate your trying to be fair to Lindsey. I still don't think that Lindsey is that far behind Jordan technically, though. And the fact that she is able to accomplish the same level of choreography without formal dance training should be admirable and even impressive, but then it goes back to the old issue that the female celebs are held to a much higher standard than the male celebs on this show.

As I previously posted, during Lindsey's trio, her shoulders were up, posture was not good, and she did not have good extensions.  That is what I mean by basic dance technique which Lindsay does not need to teach Jordan because of his dance training.  They are basic because they apply to all styles of dance and not just ballroom.  I won't even talk about Lindsey's samba because that was not good.  To be fair, I am mostly remembering this week's show and I did say that Lindsey is probably not dancing her best because of her injury.   She has improved because when she first started, her arms and legs were gangly and she did not have good control over them.   I think all the celebs have improved since they first started.  Some more than others.

So I'll just say that Jordan is better than Lindsey technically and not say by how much.    I don't think I hold female celebs to a higher standard than males.  I'm not one to complain about ringers.  Last season, I was looking forward to a season with Heather, Normani, Simone, and Nancy.  I know that they are not the same degree of ringers but they are the types that people will say are ringers.     

Edited November 9, 2017 by realdancemom

[crowceilidh]

One interesting thing is that in Val and whatershername's package, the predicted "Val is apologizing because he hadn't let Victoria have fun all season" actually started up and then fizzled out.  Never seen that before.

[TeeMo]

20 hours ago, IrishImport said:

Didn't anybody else see Kristi Yamaguchi totally diss Sasha at the top of the sky box stairs? Sasha was standing at the top, gave Lindsey a big hug, reached for Kristi and she blew right past him. Sideways. He had a funny look on his face. Then he gave Mark a quick man-hug.  Ouch, that was cold, Kristi.  Did she just blank out or does she not like him? Everybody likes Sasha! 

Maybe she was afraid he would blow an airhorn in her ear or drop a rubber spider down her back if she leaned in to return his hug. 

[Meowwww]

I am still wondering “who is Victoria.  There’s a Victoria”?   

[Steph619]

I'll be honest, I haven't watched one full episode of DWTS this season, but I did catch that they would have trios this week with past winners and contestants so I decided to just watch it for that.

 

Many people complain about Alfonso always being on this show, but I don't care! I love that guy and it's such a joy to watch him dance. He was so good in the trio with Witney and Frankie. If they ever do an All-Stars season again, I hope he joins.

 

I love Laurie too, but I didn't like her trio with Val and Victoria. I felt like it was centered around her when it really should've showcased Victoria. I also didn't think it was performed well.

[friendperidot]

I think I'm a minority of one or at least ten or fewer. I don't particularly look forward to freestyles, I don't care one way or another about freestyles. Yes, there have been good ones, but there have also been bad ones. I just don't care. I'm kind of the same way about lifts, some dancers can do them, some of the male celebs are just used as lift machines and I'd rather watch them dance. 

[calipiano81]

8 hours ago, realdancemom said:

As I previously posted, during Lindsey's trio, her shoulders were up, posture was not good, and she did not have good extensions.  That is what I mean by basic dance technique which Lindsay does not need to teach Jordan because of his dance training.  They are basic because they apply to all styles of dance and not just ballroom.  I won't even talk about Lindsey's samba because that was not good.  To be fair, I am mostly remembering this week's show and I did say that Lindsey is probably not dancing her best because of her injury.   She has improved because when she first started, her arms and legs were gangly and she did not have good control over them.   I think all the celebs have improved since they first started.  Some more than others.

So I'll just say that Jordan is better than Lindsey technically and not say by how much.    I don't think I hold female celebs to a higher standard than males.  I'm not one to complain about ringers.  Last season, I was looking forward to a season with Heather, Normani, Simone, and Nancy.  I know that they are not the same degree of ringers but they are the types that people will say are ringers.     

While I agree Lindsey's technique this week in both dances needed some improvement, it wasn't bad enough for me to constitute "not good." And as you mentioned, she is recovering from her injury.

Regarding higher standards for females...if Frankie or even Drew performed at the level of Lindsey, I don't think people would be as quick to point out the flaws and said male would be a shoo-in for the win. But Lindsey, even though she also doesn't have formal dance training, is expected to dance like a ringer, and yet could still easily end up in third place.

Edited November 9, 2017 by calipiano81

[Bridget]

6 hours ago, Star Aristille said:

He did it to Bonner Bolton last season, too.  It was a bit more deserved, as his dancing was subpar, and apparently, his attitude behind the scenes was terrible, but still . . . it made me cringe at times, especially when he outright told him he'd gotten too far.  (He had, but still . . . ouch to being told that on live TV.)

So true re: BB!!! Thanks for reminding me because I had totally forgotten about it. Didn't know about the attitude problems, but he didn't appear to have an infectious personality either, which I find most of Sharna's partners have had, with some exceptions of course.  Being any type of unprofessional is never cool, especially if your dancing sucks and you need high marks, but there is no excuse for being a bully on TV.

[Bridget]

Before I forget, remember on "Memorable Year" Night that Lindsey said her parents couldn't afford a full length violin lesson, so she only had half lessons? When the heck did they afford dance lessons/training for her if they couldn't even find the money for an hour of violin once a week? 

Just sayin' as I am sick of reading she's had dance training, and I say this as a member of Team Jordan.

Also, she spent loads of time practicing her instrument, so I highly doubt she was hoofing it in dance classes in all of her spare time.

Did she have to learn some basic stage choreography for touring? Yes, just as Jordan learned basic stage dance steps for "Hamilton." Someone (apologies for blanking on your name) posted a video a few weeks ago of the actual routine he did in the play, along with footage of his community theatre roots, to refute claims that he is a "pro in disguise."

 I've seen some of Lindsey's videos and wouldn't call her moves  "proper dancing." That said, I do know many fiddlers & violinists that don't ever dance/move their feet (other than keeping time to the tune) while playing. 

With all snarkiness set aside, if anyone knows firsthand about her prior dance training  and/or can share videos of her dancing, I would love to read about it or watch it.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Bridget
typos

[Callaphera]

3 hours ago, friendperidot said:

I think I'm a minority of one or at least ten or fewer. I don't particularly look forward to freestyles, I don't care one way or another about freestyles. Yes, there have been good ones, but there have also been bad ones. I just don't care. I'm kind of the same way about lifts, some dancers can do them, some of the male celebs are just used as lift machines and I'd rather watch them dance. 

I'm with you on the freestyles. They're more flash than substance and since it's the end of the journey, I expect more substance and more showing off the skills they learned over the season.

In regards to the bold, Tony's disco inspired freestyle for Stacy Keibler comes to mind. I still don't understand it. She had those legs and all the flexibility... and you live out your John Travolta white suit wearing dreams instead?

[crossover]

3 hours ago, friendperidot said:

I think I'm a minority of one or at least ten or fewer. I don't particularly look forward to freestyles, I don't care one way or another about freestyles. Yes, there have been good ones, but there have also been bad ones. I just don't care. I'm kind of the same way about lifts, some dancers can do them, some of the male celebs are just used as lift machines and I'd rather watch them dance. 

Since they brought in contemporary and jazz, I don't look forward to the freestyles either.  The freestyle use to be a break from strictly one style of ballroom per routine.  I feel like if they make it to the end, we've already seen a preview of what they would do.  It seems like the show didn't start off with the Charleston or AT?  Lifts are also acceptable for these styles.  Then the judges have given pros a pass on not sticking to the requirements of a ballroom style.  Sometimes, the pros just merge the styles to make a more entertaining routine.  And the voters have rewarded them with their votes even if the judges ping them for it.  I think a good example is the rumba.  The pros are making it more contemporish.

[Toonces464]

15 hours ago, crossover said:

Since they brought in contemporary and jazz, I don't look forward to the freestyles either.  The freestyle use to be a break from strictly one style of ballroom per routine.  I feel like if they make it to the end, we've already seen a preview of what they would do.  It seems like the show didn't start off with the Charleston or AT?  Lifts are also acceptable for these styles.  Then the judges have given pros a pass on not sticking to the requirements of a ballroom style.  Sometimes, the pros just merge the styles to make a more entertaining routine.  And the voters have rewarded them with their votes even if the judges ping them for it.  I think a good example is the rumba.  The pros are making it more contemporish.

I totally agree with this. I used to look forward to the freestyles because they were different and exciting, but between the addition of contemporary/jazz (meaning do whatever you want) and these big production numbers every week featuring the troupe, the freestyles are nothing special anymore.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Toonces464

[kitcloudkicker]

6 hours ago, Bridget said:

Jordan learned basic stage dance steps for "Hamilton." Someone (apologies for blanking on your name) posted a video a few weeks ago of the actual routine he did in the play, along with footage of his community theatre roots, to refute claims that he is a "pro in disguise."

Jordan didn’t dance much for Hamilton or Grease, but he did for Teen Beach and Teen Beach 2. (90% sure he was one of the dancers for the DWTS Teen Beach performance back in Riker’s season, which I posted a bit earlier, which would mean he’s worked with choreographers lik Christopher Scott.) He’s definitely had the same type of jazz and hip hop training as Corbin did for High School Musical.

THAT SAID, I don’t think that makes him uninteresting to watch learning ballroom, as I like that it means Lindsay can spend time teaching ballroom ballroom instead of dance 101, and I like that he is eager to learn, and doesn’t try to just fall back on what he knows. And like many others have said being the best dancer doesn’t guarantee a win, so it’s not some massive advantage, as I think the fact that it’s getting pretty heated on both sides in the Frankie v Jordan debate kinda proves. (I personally like both types of contestants, as well as the “untrained but natural talent” kind of dancer Lindsey is, and actually not sure if I could predict who finishes ahead of who between Lindsey/Jordan/Frankie.)

Edited November 9, 2017 by kitcloudkicker

[MsJamieDornan]

7 hours ago, Bridget said:

He did it to Bonner Bolton last season, too.  It was a bit more deserved, as his dancing was subpar, and apparently, his attitude behind the scenes was terrible, but still . . . it made me cringe at times, especially when he outright told him he'd gotten too far.  (He had, but still . . . ouch to being told that on live TV.)

Give me the scoop ???

[realdancemom]

7 hours ago, Bridget said:

Just sayin' as I am sick of reading she's had dance training, and I say this as a member of Team Jordan.

I haven't seen any posts that mention Lindsey having dance training.  I specifically said she didn't.  Also, this show is not a real dance competition.  People vote for whatever reason.  I'm Team Jordan too but I'm not sure if he'll win.  Lindsey would be my second choice.  I've also seen a lot of people wanting Frankie to win.  I don't watch Property Brothers but I've read that it's popular.  So who knows, maybe Drew will win or at least be in the finals.  David Ross was in second place last season beating out a whole bunch of better female dancers.  

I still look forward to the freestyles but not as much as I used to.  I agree that with the addition of the troupe, contemporary/jazz, and fusion of styles, they are not as special.  I do think that if Jordan, Lindsey, and Frankie are in the finals, the freestyles will be good.  All three of them have creative choreographers. 

In the duets, I thought Len was crankier with Frankie more than Drew.  With Drew, he did say some positive things before mentioning his elbow and frame.  With Frankie, it was all negative.  I don't think he said anything positive.  He did say that last week was all creepy while this week was airy fairy.  It was something like that.  He's cranky but that did crack me up a little.  I tend to agree a lot with Len even though he could say things a little nicer.  I think he gets extra cranky if somebody keeps moving on that is not that great of a dancer and we start losing better dancers.  Although, he wasn't mean to David last season even when he pointed out his faults.  He was just cranky with Bonner. I got tired of Bonner too since we lost Heather and Nancy before him.  At least, I knew why David was advancing.  He had a lot of fans and he was likable.

[boyznkatz]

10 hours ago, friendperidot said:

I think I'm a minority of one or at least ten or fewer. I don't particularly look forward to freestyles, I don't care one way or another about freestyles. Yes, there have been good ones, but there have also been bad ones. I just don't care. I'm kind of the same way about lifts, some dancers can do them, some of the male celebs are just used as lift machines and I'd rather watch them dance. 

I think a final with Lindsey/Jordan/Frankie should give us entertaining freestyles. If both Drew and Victoria are in it, I think I'll take a pass.

[vdw84]

Jordan and Lindsay(celeb) may be getting hated on but I think they r getting hated on more by the other contestants and pros than gp. The gp ate the contestants alive last season esp. the females but this season it feels more like crickets tbh. I just think if a female had Jordan personality yet his dance skill she would get crucified and called stuckup and cocky but the gp loves him. I like jordan and think he is great but I have noticed how he acts like he is the best in the competition and he really is but he acts like that and if a female celeb acted like that, omg the outcry. Dwts viewers hates confident women.

[Andie1]

2 hours ago, kitcloudkicker said:

THAT SAID, I don’t think that makes him uninteresting to watch learning ballroom, as I like that it means Lindsay can spend time teaching ballroom ballroom instead of dance 101,

This so much.  In fact, when I see Jordan do Standard Ballroom in particular, I feel he has a better grasp of the standard technique than even Corbin did in his season.  For me, it felt like Corbin was always a jazz dancer first, and trying on the ballroom, where I see Jordan melting into the Ballroom style much more, and even though  he did have some struggle with the tempo and the requirements because Lindsay didn't hold back on that Quickstep, Len stood up because it was there when it was needed. He performed the hell out of that dance.  

Just to take the Corbin /Jordan comparison further, I see Corbin as the ultimate jazz dancer, he moves with cat light precision,  Jordan is more upright maybe he's done some ballet but his back and shoulders in particular are really outstanding to frame the female.  

Edited November 9, 2017 by Andie1

[Andie1]

21 hours ago, boyznkatz said:

Drew sucks but I agree Len needs to get the poker out of his ass. No need for him to be rude. Who the hell is going to do this show if he acts like that?

Lots of people who want the exposure.  Drew might be getting harsh criticism but man the guy needs to get a dose of reality. He thought he'd be a contender? It's like Jonah Ryan on Veep thinking he can hang in the West Wing. And the way that Trio went it felt for me like Emma and Rashad were totally into it, Drew not so much.  Women who dance like that on this show are long gone before the semi's. 

Edited November 9, 2017 by Andie1

[Andie1]

I still get excited for Freestyles because they just bring out the best or the worst in choreography.  This year in particular I am looking forward to Lindsay Arnold's choreography

I'm not looking for a lift fest, but Lindsay is the best lift choreographer in the business, I'm convinced of that after that salsa slide to lift seemless because she utilized the trio absolutely right.  Corbin was there to spot and gently set her down..really there was only 2 lifts and a trick in the entire routine, thankfully she didn't do what she did with Calvin's climbing toy salsa; this was full on dance which I love.  The lifts were there to punctuate the dynamics and boy did they ever.  But, I'll never forget her gorgeous double aerial cartwheel lift with Calvin's Argentine Tango... I mean there are so many great highlights, plus a great baseball theme last season with a partner with limited ability and now she has someone who has the skills to just take it all to fruition.  

[Andie1]

On 11/8/2017 at 4:20 AM, calipiano81 said:

In 25 seasons, the judges have never said or implied that they expect samba rolls in a samba. They don't actually have required elements for any of the dances (other than perhaps the ballroom dances having enough in hold/don't break hold); they just expect them to have proper content.

This is true.  But to be honest, Mark has had varying degrees of success with Samba,  Kristi Yamaguchi and Shawn Johnson both his champion partners struggled with Samba when they were first danced in season 6 and season 8.    The Samba was a struggle for Lindsey to get right and of those 3 - I'd say Lindsey had the most struggle and I think it was due to injury.  

[vdw84]

33 minutes ago, Andie1 said:

Lots of people who want the exposure.  Drew might be getting harsh criticism but man the guy needs to get a dose of reality. He thought he'd be a contender? It's like Jonah Ryan on Veep thinking he can hang in the West Wing. And the way that Trio went it felt for me like Emma and Rashad were totally into it, Drew not so much.  Women who dance like that on this show are long gone before the semi's. 

However do I agree that Drew may not be contender but I have to say I like his attitude that he feels he can be and is not thinking about the competition like others keeping mentioning in their package. I think if people stop worrying so much about who is better or the best then some would be performing better than what they r or just having a better time. At the end of day this is just a fun dance show where u win a little bit of money and cheap trophy, for most of the celebs or all it shouldnt be a life changing career or make or break u as a person.

 

IF u go into this competition thinking u dont stand a chance or keep worrying about ur competitors, then u will be left behind. I kinda like that he tries to think highly of himself even if he keeps getting tearing down by the judges. I respect his confidence.

[inandout]

46 minutes ago, Andie1 said:

Lots of people who want the exposure.  Drew might be getting harsh criticism but man the guy needs to get a dose of reality. He thought he'd be a contender? It's like Jonah Ryan on Veep thinking he can hang in the West Wing. And the way that Trio went it felt for me like Emma and Rashad were totally into it, Drew not so much.  Women who dance like that on this show are long gone before the semi's. 

But DWTS is supposed to be about contestants like Drew - who came into the competition with no dance experience.  That's what put the show on the map. 

I actually don't think the judges are hard enough on Jordan - who has been consistently over scored - because he has more dance experience than any of the other contestants.

[realdancemom]

1 hour ago, Andie1 said:

This so much.  In fact, when I see Jordan do Standard Ballroom in particular, I feel he has a better grasp of the standard technique than even Corbin did in his season.  For me, it felt like Corbin was always a jazz dancer first, and trying on the ballroom, where I see Jordan melting into the Ballroom style much more, and even though  he did have some struggle with the tempo and the requirements because Lindsay didn't hold back on that Quickstep, Len stood up because it was there when it was needed. He performed the hell out of that dance.  

Just to take the Corbin /Jordan comparison further, I see Corbin as the ultimate jazz dancer, he moves with cat light precision,  Jordan is more upright maybe he's done some ballet but his back and shoulders in particular are really outstanding to frame the female.  

I agree with you and kitcloudkicker.  I enjoy watching good dancing and I never mind ringers.  I like watching Jordan learning how to do ballroom.  As kitcloudkicker and I previously posted, he is not working hard to learn basic technique.  He is working hard to learn more difficult choreography and trying to look effortless while learning good technique.  I like that he is a perfectionist and wants to do things correctly.

I also agree with your assessment of Corbin and Jordan.  Corbin moves more like a jazz and hip-hop dancer.  That's why he was always better at Latin than Standard.  Jordan does seem to have more ballet training.  In his contemporary, he didn't have great feet but they were good.  Also, for his journey, I thought he had to learn to undo some of his training.  He is very fluid which is great for something like the rumba and contemporary.  I just wasn't sure how he would perform in the more masculine Latin dances.  However, I did think he pulled it off enough in his Paso last week.  He will never look as macho/intense as somebody like Maks.

Edited November 9, 2017 by realdancemom

[crossover]

3 minutes ago, ifoundit said:

I actually don't think the judges are hard enough on Jordan - who has been consistently over scored - because he has more dance experience than any of the other contestants.

I think so too.  If they scored the other celebs iaw their performance, they could score Jordan lower. 

[realdancemom]

8 minutes ago, ifoundit said:

But DWTS is supposed to be about contestants like Drew - who came into the competition with no dance experience.  That's what put the show on the map. 

I actually don't think the judges are hard enough on Jordan - who has been consistently over scored - because he has more dance experience than any of the other contestants.

I would not be watching the show if there were only people with no dance experience.  I watched a few shows from the first season.  I thought the dancing wasn't very good.  So I didn't watch again until Nicole and Evan's season.  I've watched it since but it took two "ringers" to get me to watch it.

IMHO, I don't think Jordan is over scored.  I thought Lindsey was underscored with her trio.  I do think that the judges could give more constructive criticism to Jordan.

Edited November 9, 2017 by realdancemom

[Andie1]

14 minutes ago, realdancemom said:

I would not be watching the show if there were only people with no dance experience.  I watched a few shows from the first season.  I thought the dancing wasn't very good.  So I didn't watch again until Nicole and Evan's season.  I've watched it since but it took two "ringers" to get me to watch it.

IMHO, I don't think Jordan is over scored.  I thought Lindsey was underscored with her trio.  I do think that the judges could give more constructive criticism to Jordan.

IMO I didn't think Lindsey was underscored for either dance.  The struggles with the Samba have already been listed, but I thought the Trio was a re-hash of Mark's brilliant Foxtrot Trio he did for Sadie Robertson with Emma, and I really enjoyed how he choreographed the Foxtrot into that dance.  This Trio suffered a bit I thought from throwing a lot of stuff in but ultimately we saw a sameness, we've seen it before,  but where it was a more intricate interplay between the three dancers last time and the girl he picks in the end is Sadie, in this one it was sort of one dimensional, and I thought while Lindsey held her own, she seemed very tight and didn't extend the line as well as she could have. 

[realdancemom]

4 minutes ago, Andie1 said:

IMO I didn't think Lindsey was underscored for either dance.  The struggles with the Samba have already been listed, but I thought the Trio was a re-hash of Mark's brilliant Foxtrot Trio he did for Sadie Robertson with Emma, and I really enjoyed how he choreographed the Foxtrot into that dance.  This Trio suffered a bit I thought from throwing a lot of stuff in but ultimately we saw a sameness, we've seen it before,  but where it was a more intricate interplay between the three dancers last time and the girl he picks in the end is Sadie, in this one it was sort of one dimensional, and I thought while Lindsey held her own, she seemed very tight and didn't extend the line as well as she could have. 

I want to clarify that by underscored, I only meant by a point.  I don't think she deserved perfect scores.  I already pointed out what I thought was wrong with her technique in previous posts.  It was even more obvious since Kristi didn't have those problems.

[Andie1]

Okay I agree, maybe a point on each dance, possibly for choreography but I don't see some drastic underscoring because I think the last few times out she has not matched what she did on the AT in terms of dance ability.

[Andie1]

51 minutes ago, ifoundit said:

But DWTS is supposed to be about contestants like Drew - who came into the competition with no dance experience.  That's what put the show on the map. 

But that's never been stipulated that's what the show is about.  That's pros on the show justifying why fan favorites with little experience wins.  It doesn't matter why anyone votes.   I happen to vote for good dancing, regardless of experience or lack there of.   If someone decides their child actor star is now all grown up and just the greatest thing then that's what they vote for.  I don't conflate the two.   

[realdancemom]

3 minutes ago, Andie1 said:

Okay I agree, maybe a point on each dance, possibly for choreography but I don't see some drastic underscoring because I think the last few times out she has not matched what she did on the AT in terms of dance ability.

It's too bad that Lindsey is injured.  That AT was awesome.  Last week, she did a good (great considering her injury) job but it was obvious she was in pain.  At least, you couldn't tell that she was in pain this week.  Given her injury, I think Mark could have put less in her samba choreography.   

[Andie1]

52 minutes ago, crossover said:

I think so too.  If they scored the other celebs iaw their performance, they could score Jordan lower. 

Where?  On dance position?  Footwork?  he gets the scores because he's doing the best job out there.