S25.E09: Week 8: Trio Night

[boyznkatz]

There is nothing they can really knock Jordan on, and they look ridiculous nit-picking him. Is he running away with the competition? Sure looks that way to me. If he wasn't getting many votes, they could give him all the perfect scores they want and it still won't help him.

[realdancemom]

2 hours ago, Andie1 said:

I still get excited for Freestyles because they just bring out the best or the worst in choreography.  This year in particular I am looking forward to Lindsay Arnold's choreography

I'm not looking for a lift fest, but Lindsay is the best lift choreographer in the business, I'm convinced of that after that salsa slide to lift seemless because she utilized the trio absolutely right.  Corbin was there to spot and gently set her down..really there was only 2 lifts and a trick in the entire routine, thankfully she didn't do what she did with Calvin's climbing toy salsa; this was full on dance which I love.  The lifts were there to punctuate the dynamics and boy did they ever.  But, I'll never forget her gorgeous double aerial cartwheel lift with Calvin's Argentine Tango... I mean there are so many great highlights, plus a great baseball theme last season with a partner with limited ability and now she has someone who has the skills to just take it all to fruition.  

I'm so glad that Lindsay/Jordan/Corbin had the salsa so they could do lifts.  What I liked about their routine was that it was seamless.  There wasn't awkward transitions where you could see them setting up for a lift or trick.  You didn't see bad landings.  I love when Lindsay went up on Jordan's shoulder and then transitioned to an aerial cartwheel lift with Corbin.  Love how synchronized Corbin and Jordan were when they did the pirouette down to one knee.  There are other wonderful moments like that in their dance.

Edited November 9, 2017 by realdancemom

[Andie1]

1 hour ago, boyznkatz said:

There is nothing they can really knock Jordan on, and they look ridiculous nit-picking him. Is he running away with the competition? Sure looks that way to me. If he wasn't getting many votes, they could give him all the perfect scores they want and it still won't help him.

If he is the low vote getter then I’m glad he’s not nitpicked because then likely he would be gone.

People would find a way to knock him. The hate on for people who are good at dancing on this show is a warped perspective but it is what it is. 

There used to be a vote for the worst web site just to knock good singers and dancers on reality shows.  

[boyznkatz]

I think Jordan is Alfonso 2.0. He is so exciting when he dances that casual viewers are going to notice him, so I think he is going to win. I would love to see Lindsay Arnold win as well.

[SnarkyTart]

13 hours ago, Bridget said:

With all snarkiness set aside, if anyone knows firsthand about her prior dance training  and/or can share videos of her dancing, I would love to read about it or watch it.

The closest I can think of to "professional" dance training would be when she was a contestant on Season 3 of "Dance Showdown" in 2013.  It's a youtube live show hosted by DTrix (known mostly as a contestant on SYTYCD).  It's similar in format to DWTS, though all hip-hop oriented.  The contestants are "celebrities" and each of them has the same pro partner throughout the weekly competition.  Lindsey took second place in that season.  Here's one video from week 1, you can find more on youtube.

[realdancemom]

14 minutes ago, SnarkyTart said:

The closest I can think of to "professional" dance training would be when she was a contestant on Season 3 of "Dance Showdown" in 2013.  It's a youtube live show hosted by DTrix (known mostly as a contestant on SYTYCD).  It's similar in format to DWTS, though all hip-hop oriented.  The contestants are "celebrities" and each of them has the same pro partner throughout the weekly competition.  Lindsey took second place in that season.  Here's one video from week 1, you can find more on youtube.

 

I never heard of this show.  That was embarrassing and it doesn't make me want to watch this show or the other clips on youtube.

[doLLish]

I cannot express enough how much I hate what freestyles have turned into. It used to be a celebration of making it to the end. Everything you couldn't do because of "rules", was now there for the taking. Never before seen lifts and tricks. Everything you've learned over the past few weeks was to be on full display. The audience and viewers would be wowed one final time.

Now its all about who can squeeze out the most sympathy votes via another overdone "contemporary" routine.

I hate it so much. Here's hoping for some spectacular freestyles for this finale. Jordan/Lindsay and Lindsey/Mark are more than capable.

[doLLish]

6 hours ago, ifoundit said:

But DWTS is supposed to be about contestants like Drew - who came into the competition with no dance experience.  That's what put the show on the map. 

I keep seeing this, but what official DWTS statement has ever said this? A show full of stars from the entertainment world, and none are supposed to have dance experience? In what world is this even possible? Even the British version of the show, which DWTS is based on states its "a professional/celebrity ballroom dancing competition."

As far as I'm concerned, the show has always been about "stars" learning how to ballroom dance in a competition format. Nothing more, nothing less.

[crossover]

5 hours ago, Andie1 said:

Where?  On dance position?  Footwork?  he gets the scores because he's doing the best job out there.

I think he's doing the best job as well.  My point was the other celebs are being over scored for what they're doing.  So there's no way that Jordan should receive lower scores.

[Andie1]

4 minutes ago, crossover said:

I think he's doing the best job as well.  My point was the other celebs are being over scored for what they're doing.  So there's no way that Jordan should receive lower scores.

Sorry, I misunderstood. we are definitely on the same page here. 

2 hours ago, boyznkatz said:

I think Jordan is Alfonso 2.0. He is so exciting when he dances that casual viewers are going to notice him, so I think he is going to win. I would love to see Lindsay Arnold win as well.

I think Jordan would kill for the kind of popularity Alfonso enjoys, at least with the demo that watches this show.

[inandout]

32 minutes ago, doLLish said:

I keep seeing this, but what official DWTS statement has ever said this? A show full of stars from the entertainment world, and none are supposed to have dance experience? In what world is this even possible? Even the British version of the show, which DWTS is based on states its "a professional/celebrity ballroom dancing competition."

As far as I'm concerned, the show has always been about "stars" learning how to ballroom dance in a competition format. Nothing more, nothing less.

Not all the "celebrities" are from the entertainment world.  And just because they are, it doesn't necessarily mean they have any professional dancing experience.

Keep in mind that Ringers usually don't win.  The voting audience likes to champion the underdogs.  Making mistakes, etc is part of the growth process.

If Jordan is that good where the judges have nothing constructive to give him, it tells me he is overqualified for this amateur competition.

[tessaforever]

7 hours ago, Andie1 said:

IMO I didn't think Lindsey was underscored for either dance.  The struggles with the Samba have already been listed, but I thought the Trio was a re-hash of Mark's brilliant Foxtrot Trio he did for Sadie Robertson with Emma, and I really enjoyed how he choreographed the Foxtrot into that dance.  This Trio suffered a bit I thought from throwing a lot of stuff in but ultimately we saw a sameness, we've seen it before,  but where it was a more intricate interplay between the three dancers last time and the girl he picks in the end is Sadie, in this one it was sort of one dimensional, and I thought while Lindsey held her own, she seemed very tight and didn't extend the line as well as she could have. 

Right!! I knew Lindsey/Mark/Kristi reminded me of something! What I remember about Sadie's dance (without watching it again) is that she forgot part of the choreography, right? And just twirled around a few times? This had a lot of similarities in spite of being a different style - it had a very similar feel. 

7 hours ago, realdancemom said:

I'm so glad that Lindsay/Jordan/Corbin had the salsa so they could do lifts.  What I liked about their routine was that it was seamless.  There wasn't awkward transitions where you could see them setting up for a lift or trick.  You didn't see bad landings.  I love when Lindsay went up on Jordan's shoulder and then transitioned to an aerial cartwheel lift with Corbin.  Love how synchronized Corbin and Jordan were when they did the pirouette down to one knee.  There are other wonderful moments like that in their dance.

I loved that lift! It also reminded me of something I think almost every time I see Lindsay dance (TM someone brilliant on this board): Lindsay loves to be lifted!

ETA: Now that I've watched their trio two more times (lol), another thing I appreciate about that lift is that it could only be done with three people. Not all the pros take advantage of that. 

Edited November 10, 2017 by tessaforever

[realdancemom]

24 minutes ago, tessaforever said:

I loved that lift! It also reminded me of something I think almost every time I see Lindsay dance (TM someone brilliant on this board): Lindsay loves to be lifted!

ETA: Now that I've watched their trio two more times (lol), another thing I appreciate about that lift is that it could only be done with three people. Not all the pros take advantage of that. 

I probably watched their trio 10x on youtube.  I love it so much.  You quoted me with some things that I like.  I swear that I could have written a whole essay detailing everything that I liked about it.  I haven't watched the other trios again.

[Andie1]

7 minutes ago, realdancemom said:

I probably watched their trio 10x on youtube.  I love it so much.  You quoted me with some things that I like.  I swear that I could have written a whole essay detailing everything that I liked about it.  I haven't watched the other trios again.

LOL there were other trios?

[realdancemom]

1 hour ago, ifoundit said:

Not all the "celebrities" are from the entertainment world.  And just because they are, it doesn't necessarily mean they have any professional dancing experience.

Keep in mind that Ringers usually don't win.  The voting audience likes to champion the underdogs.  Making mistakes, etc is part of the growth process.

If Jordan is that good where the judges have nothing constructive to give him, it tells me he is overqualified for this amateur competition.

If ringers don't usually win, then what's the problem having them on?  The show just wants people to watch so they are going to have a wide variety of stars.  Some people like the underdog.  I want to see good dancing.     Previously, Len has given constructive criticism to Jordan.  He even said that he will be pickier with him because of expectations.   I think Jordan had an outstanding night and it was his turn to get perfect scores.  I think sometimes the show likes to create narratives.  If Lindsey feels better, I expect her to do well with contemporary and her Meryl/Maks tango next week.  Mark will use Lindsey's flexibility for their contemporary.   I'm not entirely sure what they mean by iconic dances but if Jordan has to match Mark in Mark/Paige's jive, then he will get lower scores next week.  

[boyznkatz]

I like people who can dance or at least entertain. I wouldn't watch if they had twelve people like Nick and Drew. I really don't care if they have experience or not.

I think most people who vote probably don't know a whole lot about dancing, so they are just going to vote for whomever they find most entertaining. 

[Andie1]

5 minutes ago, boyznkatz said:

I like people who can dance or at least entertain. I wouldn't watch if they had twelve people like Nick and Drew. I really don't care if they have experience or not.

I think most people who vote probably don't know a whole lot about dancing, so they are just going to vote for whomever they find most entertaining. 

Well that Jordan Lindsay Corbin trio must be entertaining, it's went viral with over 1.3 million views in just two days.

[Annber03]

6 minutes ago, boyznkatz said:

I like people who can dance or at least entertain. I wouldn't watch if they had twelve people like Nick and Drew. I really don't care if they have experience or not.

I think most people who vote probably don't know a whole lot about dancing, so they are just going to vote for whomever they find most entertaining. 

Pretty much this.

[Bridget]

15 hours ago, MsJamieDornan said:

Give me the scoop ???

I would if I could!

I was quoting Star Aristille's posting re: Bonner's behavior. I hadn't heard anything about him behind the scenes prior to reading their post. 
 

[Bridget]

15 hours ago, kitcloudkicker said:

 

THAT SAID, I don’t think that makes him uninteresting to watch learning ballroom, as I like that it means Lindsay can spend time teaching ballroom ballroom instead of dance 101, and I like that he is eager to learn, and doesn’t try to just fall back on what he knows. And like many others have said being the best dancer doesn’t guarantee a win, so it’s not some massive advantage, as I think the fact that it’s getting pretty heated on both sides in the Frankie v Jordan debate kinda proves. (I personally like both types of contestants, as well as the “untrained but natural talent” kind of dancer Lindsey is, and actually not sure if I could predict who finishes ahead of who between Lindsey/Jordan/Frankie.)

I couldn't agree with you more!

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who is struggling to even take a guess at the final three based on all of the craziness we've seen this season.

And by craziness, I mean that I am still trying to figure out how Debbie Gibson went home during Week 2. I was crushed by that. Just crushed.

[littlecowgirl93]

3 hours ago, Andie1 said:

Well that Jordan Lindsay Corbin trio must be entertaining, it's went viral with over 1.3 million views in just two days.

Really? Just curious, I checked DWTS’ YouTube and it’s only at 350k+ Is it somewhere else where it got more views? Or am I reading it wrong? Probably the latter...lol

[lavenderblue]

The music video with Derek is probably the main "dance experience" that people (perhaps even people within the show, given that it's predicated on her connection with Derek) are assigning to Lindsey:

Edited November 10, 2017 by lavenderblue

[Bridget]

14 hours ago, realdancemom said:

I haven't seen any posts that mention Lindsey having dance training.  I specifically said she didn't.  Also, this show is not a real dance competition.  People vote for whatever reason.  I'm Team Jordan too but I'm not sure if he'll win.  Lindsey would be my second choice.  I've also seen a lot of people wanting Frankie to win.  I don't watch Property Brothers but I've read that it's popular.  So who knows, maybe Drew will win or at least be in the finals.  David Ross was in second place last season beating out a whole bunch of better female dancers.  

He's cranky but that did crack me up a little.  I tend to agree a lot with Len even though he could say things a little nicer.  I think he gets extra cranky if somebody keeps moving on that is not that great of a dancer and we start losing better dancers.  Although, he wasn't mean to David last season even when he pointed out his faults.  He was just cranky with Bonner. I got tired of Bonner too since we lost Heather and Nancy before him.  At least, I knew why David was advancing.  He had a lot of fans and he was likable.

Apologies if you thought this was geared to you - it wasn't. I was referring to those who have claimed Lindsey's had dance training before.

Yes to this!! A million times yes! I suspect the audience boos Len because they think it's cool or something. I didn't start watching until the show was a few seasons in, so perhaps there was a moment in the early seasons where booing Len caught on? If someone knows, will you please share? Many thanks!

Len's got a lifetime of dance experience and I especially agree with him about not caring for dances that involve "messing about" at the beginning. Perhaps Maks wants to take the piss out of Len because he messes about continually in his dances. I understand "breaking the rules" every now and then if it's from a creative point of view (messing about/not being in hold), but when the pros choreograph routines that they KNOW don't have enough content or time in hold and aren't pleased with the scores, that's on them. They choreographed their dance.  How many times have we heard Val say "I threw that in for you, Len"? These pros know what Len, Bruno and Carrie Ann expect. Len calls it like he sees it and he keeps it real, which I personally enjoy. His crankiness is a bit charming to me and makes up for the saccharine sappiness that is Carrie Ann. Her over the top reactions to nearly every single thing that a celeb does during a routine make me want to take my dance shoes off and go home. "Elevating the world of dance" was a bit much; I agree with those who posted that. 

I dread Memorable Year Night because I know it's a CAI cry fest. We get it! We know the deceased loved ones are looking down on them, we know overcoming struggles and beating the odds are miracles, we know telling a story with dance is letting the world know it's OK to be vulnerable, blah blah blah.  I wonder how much waterproof mascara the make-up department uses on her?

[Andie1]

47 minutes ago, littlecowgirl93 said:

Really? Just curious, I checked DWTS’ YouTube and it’s only at 350k+ Is it somewhere else where it got more views? Or am I reading it wrong? Probably the latter...lol

I was watching it on the DWTS facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/pg/dancingwiththestars/videos/?ref=page_internal

Edited November 10, 2017 by Andie1

[Bridget]

13 minutes ago, lavenderblue said:

The music video with Derek is probably the main "dance experience" that people (perhaps even people within the show, given that it's predicated on her connection with Derek) are assigning to Lindsey:

Many thanks for sharing!

Is it bad that I'm now wondering how much better Lindsey would be if she was dancing with Derek?

I think she's doing great, but dancing with Mark has got to be a challenge. I remember a few seasons ago, when the judges were giving feedback, Julianne Hough (as a judge) said to Mark & his partner something along the lines of "dancing with Mark is tough because I've danced with Mark and he has a tendency to outshine his partner." (my summation, not her exact words)

I agree with Julianne and also with those of you who have pointed out that Lindsey seems to be struggling to keep up with Mark/ is a half step behind him/ something else that is hard to put a finger on with regard to her dancing. I noticed it especially in their Paso on Halloween, even though that's been my favorite dance of theirs to date. 

[doLLish]

This is quite the dramatic week on DWTS.

Mark is being accused of stealing choreography for that sci-fi routine.

[calipiano81]

5 hours ago, Bridget said:

Many thanks for sharing!

Is it bad that I'm now wondering how much better Lindsey would be if she was dancing with Derek?

I think she's doing great, but dancing with Mark has got to be a challenge. I remember a few seasons ago, when the judges were giving feedback, Julianne Hough (as a judge) said to Mark & his partner something along the lines of "dancing with Mark is tough because I've danced with Mark and he has a tendency to outshine his partner." (my summation, not her exact words)

I agree with Julianne and also with those of you who have pointed out that Lindsey seems to be struggling to keep up with Mark/ is a half step behind him/ something else that is hard to put a finger on with regard to her dancing. I noticed it especially in their Paso on Halloween, even though that's been my favorite dance of theirs to date. 

I do not think Lindsey struggles to keep up with Mark at all. She was in great pain during their Paso, so if it seemed like she was behind Mark, I naturally assume it was due to the injury.

I think Lindsey and Mark have a great partnership and have had some amazing dances. Mark has consistently challenged Lindsey with his choreography and she has risen to the occasion each time admirably. To me, Mark is a better match for Lindsey than Derek because he is more "colorful" and their creative styles are more similar. And I imagine Derek would actually be more tough to dance with since he's such a perfectionist.

I never agreed with the statement Julianne made about Mark in Season 17. However, after it happened, Mark made a concerted effort to at least try and change the perception that he was trying to outshine his partners. He toned down his showmanship considerably, to the point where I actually had to get used to seeing him so restrained. It seemed to have worked, though, because as the following seasons went by, I saw less and less criticisms of him.

So, I probably feel even more defensive of Mark now, given that he showed an open-mindedness and willingness to change. Not everyone would.

Edited November 10, 2017 by calipiano81

[calipiano81]

1 hour ago, doLLish said:

This is quite the dramatic week on DWTS.

Mark is being accused of stealing choreography for that sci-fi routine.

So, for those 2 brief spots, they are accusing Mark of stealing?

Can you really steal choreography anyway?Don't certain passages or phrases of music lend itself to certain kind of movements that most people with good musicality would come up with?

And I doubt the people on the left side of the video were dancing Argentine Tango. 

[crossover]

7 hours ago, Bridget said:

Is it bad that I'm now wondering how much better Lindsey would be if she was dancing with Derek?

I think she's doing great, but dancing with Mark has got to be a challenge. I remember a few seasons ago, when the judges were giving feedback, Julianne Hough (as a judge) said to Mark & his partner something along the lines of "dancing with Mark is tough because I've danced with Mark and he has a tendency to outshine his partner." (my summation, not her exact words)

If she would do better with Derek, I think it would be more that Derek wouldn't challenge her as much as Mark has done.  Derek was a master at fitting movements to his celeb.  If need be, he would water-down the style but the celeb looked good.  Sometimes Mark expectation of his celeb is too high. 

In earlier seasons, Mark did perform the heck out of his routines but he's changed.  If you think he still does, you need to see those seasons.  The female pros could dance all around their partner and it was ok but if the male pros showed their style of dance, people went ballistic.  I guess because the female is suppose to be the "picture".  The frame shouldn't overtake the picture even if it's an exquisite frame :)

ETA:  I'm just talking about choreographing for the show.  It's different if there are weeks to prepare a routine.

Edited November 10, 2017 by crossover

[Andie1]

8 hours ago, lavenderblue said:

The music video with Derek is probably the main "dance experience" that people (perhaps even people within the show, given that it's predicated on her connection with Derek) are assigning to Lindsey:

 

What is interesting here is sure it had oodles of rehearsal time to look good certainly, but it also made that sci fi Argentine Tango really polished because I recognize a lot of the movement from this dance onto Mark's choreography   If anyone wants to talk about advantages, having already learned the same movement for a video for the live show is definitely an advantage, but it's only one dance out of the many they have to perform.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Andie1

[Andie1]

2 hours ago, calipiano81 said:

So, for those 2 brief spots, they are accusing Mark of stealing?

Can you really steal choreography anyway?Don't certain passages or phrases of music lend itself to certain kind of movements that most people with good musicality would come up with?

And I doubt the people on the left side of the video were dancing Argentine Tango. 

There are no rules about "stealing" choreography, although Mandy Moore is part of a group that wants to champion more credit for the  "intellectual property " of choreographers since there is no such thing for them like there are for writers and creative ..  Whether or not this merits out and out ripping of choreography is  debatable. 

[Bridget]

2 hours ago, crossover said:

If she would do better with Derek, I think it would be more that Derek wouldn't challenge her as much as Mark has done.  Derek was a master at fitting movements to his celeb.  If need be, he would water-down the style but the celeb looked good.  Sometimes Mark expectation of his celeb is too high. 

 I agree with your point about Mark expecting too much of his partners, which supports my claim that for Lindsey's sake, in my own humble opinion, he needs to take his choreography down a half step, especially when she was recovering from her rib injury on Halloween and possibly last week as some people have suggested. She  isn't getting the scores she should be getting as we've seen her grow as a dancer. 

2 hours ago, crossover said:

In earlier seasons, Mark did perform the heck out of his routines but he's changed.  If you think he still does, you need to see those seasons.  The female pros could dance all around their partner and it was ok but if the male pros showed their style of dance, people went ballistic.  I guess because the female is suppose to be the "picture".  The frame shouldn't overtake the picture even if it's an exquisite frame :)

ETA:  I'm just talking about choreographing for the show.  It's different if there are weeks to prepare a routine.

I am in agreement with you with regard to female pros dancing all around their male celebs - I think it's an unfair advantage in the spirit of competition. The male celebs do have to learn to lead as well, but I still strongly believe that some of the female pros in particular should not dance sections around their partners while they stand there to act as a frame for "the pretty picture." 

Unpopular opinion alert: I think Cheryl is guilty of the aforementioned "dancing around", and as a result, I was OK with Terrell Owens going home last week. Drew is not the best dancer, but kudos to Emma for giving him choreography that requires him to get out there and dance with all that he has...even if it means Len is going to be cranky about it.

[boyznkatz]

I really do think Lindsey would have been better with Derek. I know a lot of people love Mark, but IMO he isn't in Derek's league, and I don't even like Derek. 

[realdancemom]

10 hours ago, Bridget said:

Apologies if you thought this was geared to you - it wasn't. I was referring to those who have claimed Lindsey's had dance training before.

 

No worries, I didn't think your post was meant for me.  I really haven't seen any posts stating that Lindsey has dance training.  I think people have been careful to say that she has dance experience.  By that, it means her music videos like the one with Derek or the one that was posted in last week's thread.  She does some dancing in her videos which means that she is used to learning choreography.  But it's not dance training.

I can see both arguments about Lindsey better off pairing with either Mark or Derek.  I agree that Mark and Lindsey suit each other personality wise.  Lindsey is quirky and Mark is creative so they match better that way.  I think she was doing fine with him until her injury.  However, Derek is good at catering his choreography to make his stars look good instead of wanting to show his artistic side whether it suits the star or not.  Previously, I mentioned that due to Lindsey's injury, I thought that the samba choreography should have been a little easier.  Also, Derek is popular so a lot of his fans will vote for his star no matter what.  If Lindsey starts feeling better, I think she's fine with Mark. 

As for stealing choreography, I don't think Mark stole choreography at all.  It was just two little portions and choreography that anybody could come up with if they were doing a futuristic dance.  Something that I would think could be considered stealing is Tyce's Eli, Eli choreography with Chehon and Kathryn on SYTYCD.  In that one, it was contemporary and the story & props were the same as the original piece.  Even in that one, the choreography was a little different since it had more technique.  Sorry, I don't have a link to the original.  I just know it was done at an International dance competition and Tyce was a judge on it.  So that's another coincidence.

[Bridget]

14 minutes ago, realdancemom said:

No worries, I didn't think your post was meant for me.  I really haven't seen any posts stating that Lindsey has dance training.  I think people have been careful to say that she has dance experience.  By that, it means her music videos like the one with Derek or the one that was posted in last week's thread.  She does some dancing in her videos which means that she is used to learning choreography.  But it's not dance training.

I can see both arguments about Lindsey better off pairing with either Mark or Derek.  I agree that Mark and Lindsey suit each other personality wise.  Lindsey is quirky and Mark is creative so they match better that way.  I think she was doing fine with him until her injury.  However, Derek is good at catering his choreography to make his stars look good instead of wanting to show his artistic side whether it suits the star or not.  Previously, I mentioned that due to Lindsey's injury, I thought that the samba choreography should have been a little easier.  Also, Derek is popular so a lot of his fans will vote for his star no matter what.  If Lindsey starts feeling better, I think she's fine with Mark. 

As for stealing choreography, I don't think Mark stole choreography at all.  It was just two little portions and choreography that anybody could come up with if they were doing a futuristic dance.  Something that I would think could be considered stealing is Tyce's Eli, Eli choreography with Chehon and Kathryn on SYTYCD.  In that one, it was contemporary and the story & props were the same as the original piece.  Even in that one, the choreography was a little different since it had more technique.  Sorry, I don't have a link to the original.  I just know it was done at an International dance competition and Tyce was a judge on it.  So that's another coincidence.

Your point about Mark & Lindsey's personalities and creativity is spot on!

I get the feeling Mark came back this season to be paired with Lindsey and wants to win, which is fine. (After having Bristol as a partner TWICE, he is owed a little something!) However, someone needed to remind Mark that health is number one when he was creating the samba - I agree with you on that as well.

I also think Lindsey wants to please Mark quite badly and not let him down, which is a shame in a sense. It is a vibe I get when watching their video packages and when she speaks. i believe Lindsey was dying to dance on Halloween and no one wants to forfeit this close to the end, even if 10/31 would have been four weeks out from the last show this season.

She doesn't strike me as the competitive type who wants to win for the sake of winning, but I like to think she has/will become a bit more vocal about what she is physically able to do, especially with the freestyle around the corner.

[Andie1]

21 minutes ago, realdancemom said:

I can see both arguments about Lindsey better off pairing with either Mark or Derek.  I agree that Mark and Lindsey suit each other personality wise.  Lindsey is quirky and Mark is creative so they match better that way.  I think she was doing fine with him until her injury.  However, Derek is good at catering his choreography to make his stars look good instead of wanting to show his artistic side whether it suits the star or not.  Previously, I mentioned that due to Lindsey's injury, I thought that the samba choreography should have been a little easier.

I think it's the difference in the early experiences Mark and Derek have had on this show that compels them to teach a certain way. Early on, Derek had partners older than he,  Jenny Garth from 90210  felt very intimidated by the dancing, and Season 6 was a disasterous pairing with Shannon Elizabeth, there was some kind of romance between them and when she didn't do well he blamed others for his poor showing with her. That was ugly and immature. By Season 7, Brooke Burke told Derek off in no uncertain terms to knock off the way he was treating her calling her stupid for not doing what he wanted, and he apologized on camera.. When he did this then the partnership did very well and they won. It was almost as if he needed a good talking to to calm the hell down.  I contrast that with Mark,  he gets a similar age  Cheetah girl Sabrina who can match him in the cha cha step for step and loved to go full out.  Then he gets Kristi Yamaguchi who had the talent,  work ethic and discipline to be coached really well and not get initimated or upset by an antgonizing coach.  So Jiving with these two felt right to take the dancing to an 11.   By season 7 they give him a dud in Kim Kardashian, but he just chocked it up to her not being into dancing.   

So it seems those early days sort of made Derek step back and re-think his teaching strategy, while Mark really didn't need to.  After the long draught after the win season 8 and Mark not getting the mirrorball he also began to pull back the full on dancing.  It wasn't until Season 22 when he and Paige went balls to the wall with the Tina Turner jive that he felt good again. He even said so, best Jive he said in a long time, felt good out there... he turned it on, and insisted Paige match him, she couldn't quite match the speed or intensity as there were mistakes, but overall the package was the dynamic dancing he loves to do.        

[crossover]

2 hours ago, Bridget said:

 I agree with your point about Mark expecting too much of his partners, which supports my claim that for Lindsey's sake, in my own humble opinion, he needs to take his choreography down a half step, especially when she was recovering from her rib injury on Halloween and possibly last week as some people have suggested. She  isn't getting the scores she t out there and dance with all that he has...even if it means Len is going to be cranky about it.

Oh OK I see what people mean by Lindsey doing better with Derek.  I agree that Mark should water-down his routines sometime.  I also think Lindsey would be getting better scores if she were with Derek.  But I think she'd actually learn more from being pushed by Mark.

[calipiano81]

Lindsey has one off-week and suddenly she's technically inadequate and Mark is not doing right by her as a pro? 

I haven't seen a single dance where Lindsey seemed like she couldn't handle Mark's choreography. And IMO, she handles it very well. In live performance, sometimes things don't turn out the way they should or the way you've practiced, but it doesn't mean you can't do it. And even if it is challenging, getting out there and doing it is often how skills are honed.

Lindsey's rib injury flare-up happened on a Sunday, the day right before their performance, so changing the choreography at that point could have messed her up. Paso doble is an intense, aggressive dance anyway, so any movements would have been hard on her body.

And why was the samba too difficult for Lindsey? There wasn't really anything in the routine that I haven't seen Mark give to previous partners (of varying abilities) in past sambas. Plus, Lindsey was dancing full out and looked like she was having a great time with it, even if she needed to improve on the technique.

And don't all the celebs not want to let their partners down? It means that they care. There hasn't been anything to indicate that Lindsey is uncomfortable with anything Mark is asking her to do. On Monday, she was saying how she was already feeling so much better physically.

So Lindsey isn't perfect, but IMO Mark has been doing a great job with her all season and she is growing as a dancer.

Edited November 10, 2017 by calipiano81

[littlecowgirl93]

16 hours ago, Andie1 said:

I was watching it on the DWTS facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/pg/dancingwiththestars/videos/?ref=page_internal

Ahh, okay! Thanks for that!

[smiley13]

6 hours ago, boyznkatz said:

I really do think Lindsey would have been better with Derek. I know a lot of people love Mark, but IMO he isn't in Derek's league, and I don't even like Derek. 

Mark is head and shoulders above Derek.

[calipiano81]

Mark has to have strengths and appeal of his own, otherwise there wouldn't be fans like myself who strongly prefer him over Derek.

There are so many factors on DWTS that are out of a pro's control that luck has to play a role in success. Mark got his luck right out of the gate when he first came on the show. However, over the course of the series, IMO the stars aligned much more often for Derek. As a result, it makes it seem like Derek is untouchable and all the other pros (most especially Mark) get compared to him, when it reality it goes way beyond the pro. For instance, Mark could probably have had at least 3 more wins by now, but each time, he and his partner were up against a charismatic male with a big fanbase. In such a situation, I think even Derek would have a hard time pulling off a win.

Edited November 10, 2017 by calipiano81

[crossover]

55 minutes ago, calipiano81 said:

Mark could probably have had at least 3 more wins by now, but each time, he and his partner were up against a charismatic male with a big fanbase. In such a situation, I think even Derek would have a hard time pulling off a win.

I'm guessing the 3 males with the fanbases were Driver (Katherine); Alfonso (Sadie); and Nyle (Paige).  I have to give it up for Derek though.  Normally if he made the F3, he won.  Derek should've won with Shawn but that was the season tapped for Tony.  But he shouldn't have made finals with Ricki (JR) or Amy (sure winner Meryl).

[boyznkatz]

I don't think Sadie was anywhere close to beating Alfonso. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by boyznkatz

[realdancemom]

4 hours ago, calipiano81 said:

Lindsey has one off-week and suddenly she's technically inadequate and Mark is not doing right by her as a pro? 

I haven't seen a single dance where Lindsey seemed like she couldn't handle Mark's choreography. And IMO, she handles it very well. In live performance, sometimes things don't turn out the way they should or the way you've practiced, but it doesn't mean you can't do it. And even if it is challenging, getting out there and doing it is often how skills are honed.

Lindsey's rib injury flare-up happened on a Sunday, the day right before their performance, so changing the choreography at that point could have messed her up. Paso doble is an intense, aggressive dance anyway, so any movements would have been hard on her body.

And why was the samba too difficult for Lindsey? There wasn't really anything in the routine that I haven't seen Mark give to previous partners (of varying abilities) in past sambas. Plus, Lindsey was dancing full out and looked like she was having a great time with it, even if she needed to improve on the technique.

Lindsey has had two off weeks.  It's due to her injury though and not because she's technically inadequate.  

They couldn't have changed the Paso Doble since there was no time.  I thought she did fine.  She just looked like she was in pain.  

 You gave the reason why I think the samba choreography should have been easier.  Lindsey is still injured.  The Samba is one of the harder dances.  I would rather see easier choreography with proper technique than difficult choreography with improper technique.  By proper, I don't mean that I expect her to look like a pro ballroom dancer either.

I like both Mark and Derek so Lindsey is/would have been fine with either one.   People are just making observations on the differences between the two.  It's all personal opinion. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by realdancemom

[boyznkatz]

Lindsey could still win if she has a bigger fanbase than Jordan. Historically people his age have never won unless they were cute gymnasts. 

I don't remember anyone saying she was inadequate, anyway. She's still good.

Edited November 11, 2017 by boyznkatz

[calipiano81]

3 hours ago, crossover said:

I'm guessing the 3 males with the fanbases were Driver (Katherine); Alfonso (Sadie); and Nyle (Paige).  

 

I was actually thinking the 3rd one being Hines (Chelsea). Alfonso had a huge fanbase, but he was also the best dancer that season.

[Sd601]

All of this intense discussion is indicative of a great season. If we're all bored, we won't have fun diving into the nuisances of each contestant: is jordan a ringer? Is Lindsey underscored? Is frankie overscored? Who's choreography is best? It's just a testament to the casting this season--it's been fun to watch!

Unabashedly, I will say my fav is Jordan. It didn't start that way (I first voted for Frankie and still enjoy him), but now I love watching Jordan. Is he a trained "ringer?" Yeah, probably so. But Heather Morris last season was as well, and while I enjoyed watching her dance, I disliked her personality. She was probably just shy and reserved, but Frankie portrays that similar trait with humility, while Heather left me cold and uncomfortable.

if more uneducated dance watchers like me vote (but hey, I've watched SYTYCD for several years!), then Jordan may be getting the votes. If you look on YouTube, he has some funny, charming interviews off camera with Lindsay. I like him, I like his dancing, and I hope they win. But freestyle can make or break you. I hope he can do mark ballas's jive proud (Mary). See where I went there? No? Too cheesy? Yeah probably...

Edited November 11, 2017 by Sd601

[katha]

Strangely enough, when I think of Mark, my first thought usually is that first season with Bristol Palin. I think that right there showed something incredibly unique he brings to the table that goes beyond choreography and teaching dance: He was stuck with this person who wasn't behaving very pleasantly, who had no work ethic, was constantly complaining, had no talent and no self-esteem. But Mark, in his early twenties and right in the middle of his most annoying "edgy" phase, saw beyond that: He saw that she was overwhelmed with the situation, that she was pushed by her mother into an environment she couldn't handle. And so she lashed out because she couldn't handle any of it. He had compassion for her and the patience of 20 saints. Somehow, by a miracle, he was able to establish a working relationship with her and even got a few vaguely watchable dances out of her. Even Bristol, with her complete lack of self-awareness, seemed to understand at a certain point that he was going out of his way to help her out and so she started trying a bit and started to respond to him. And that's just the most extreme case. I don't think it's an accident that Mark is still on good terms with many of his partners, he seems to bring a level of empathy to the proceedings that's really unusual.

Tied to that, IMO that is also why he can do all these "out there" dances with his partners. Someone remarked that it looks like Lindsey wants to please Mark. That's usually the case with his partners. He's a great teacher, he forms good bonds and he's able to make his partners feel confident. So they trust him and want to do well. They also trust him that things like "I'll play the crab in this dance! We'll do duck samba, Super Mario, rabbit foxtrot!, scary clown jive (I love that one, I don't even care)!, Breaking Bad jazz, Sci-fi tango!" will somehow work out. And, more often than not, they do. That's the fun he brings to the show and he can do that in a way that's beneficial to his partners and doesn't make them uncomfortable because he's a great teacher and partner who goes out of his way to build trust in every dance partnership.

He's not as slick in "working" the show as Derek. But then, no one in the history of DWTS has ever come close to Derek in that IMO. It's a unique talent of his. But it's not the only worthwhile talent to have and many pros have great qualities that are just different from Derek's. And it would be super boring if everyone was partnered with Derek and the sort of streamlined look that comes with that. And this is in no way, shape or form a criticism of Derek. I recently did a rewatch of his dances and have really come to appreciate him a lot more. He produced some stunning work for the show (though I totally disagree that Shawn was "robbed". IMO she had a very inconsistent season with Derek, Derek made some unusual strategic mistakes with her and boy, do I hate that freestyle. And the rumba! Ugh.). No one can choreograph a ballroom tango like he does. I miss that most of all, I think. But again, the way Derek does DWTS is not the only way to do DWTS and it would be hella boring if everyone tried to do it the same way.

[crossover]

5 hours ago, calipiano81 said:

 

I was actually thinking the 3rd one being Hines (Chelsea). Alfonso had a huge fanbase, but he was also the best dancer that season.

Oh OK.  I thought of Chelsea but I figured you were going for the ones who ended in 2nd place.

[crossover]

7 hours ago, boyznkatz said:

I don't think Sadie was anywhere close to beating Alfonso. 

I agree.  I was just trying to guess what 3 males CALIPIANO81 was talking about who had the large fanbases that kept Mark's partner from winning.  I was basing it on Mark's 2nd place finishes.  Alfonso had a large fanbase but he wasn't one that he was referring to.  He responded back and let me know it was Hines (Chelsea 3rd place finisher).